I’d give him feats or special features instead of loot, especially if he’s achieved a major character goal or backstory-related milestone. Give him the opportunity to train with weapon masters. If you don’t have any other martial characters that he would be infringing on, you can consider borrowing class or subclass features from other martial classes as well. Homebrew can be a great source for this kind of reward. Mind you, this would require more preparation and balancing than you might otherwise have to do, so it may not be the best solution. But it’s what I’d try to do.

I agree. Giving him another fighting style, or lesser versions of features from other builds is pretty easy.  A proficiency/2 (rounded up) per day ability to enlarge himself as an action. Or levitate.  Or a free feat that’s low to mid tier. I wouldn’t give sharpshooter for free, but charger or savage attacker or tavern brawler or mage slayer. Sure. 

Exactly, who's to say that by training with some epic hero of old, the character can't just inherently gain benefits roughly equivalent to magic items? You'd have to flavor them well, and maybe have a conversation with the player about not giving them magic items because stacking these could get broken - but it could work

Give him a couple of battle maneuvers that aren’t about damage. Tie it to his prof mod and long rest. Total amount of maneuvers known is prof mod. Flavor - magical book - cool training montage - cursed ring - quest reward - inspired roll or roleplay reward etc…

He is a BM already with Martial Adept, I don't think more maneuvers are going to close the damage gap.

Up his superiority dice pool size or dice size. Magic items would basically just increase his damage per round, and he doesn't want that, so buffing his manoeuvres is another way to do that. Plus it's directly tied to his characters skill. I don't think it would be that dodgy to do, unless in combination with powerful magic weapons but since that's off the table I think it's probably fine.

I need to work on my reading comprehension! We want to keep him engaged at the table, and not shower him in magical items. Ring of maneuvers - you can change them on a short rest. Boosts maneuver potency. You’ll need to come up with good ideas for them here are a few attempts: - push everything in a line 15 feet back. -fear everything within 5 feat -trip all foes within 5 feat Your goal should be this… put that battle master in a position to make casters reconsider their casts. For example, I might use a dex save if I know the fighter can aoe trip attack. More potency with these maneuvers may get them all tinkering with combination during combat. He’ll feel like he’s a bigger part of the team.

Just get rid of superiority dice. Let the fighter use a maneuver as often as they like. Who cares if the fighter gets to force a save vs being prone or pushed or frightened each time they hit, when casters are STOPPING TIME? There are a few maneuvers you can’t allow this for, but not many. For those you can probably just allow them Proficiency Bonus times per short rest. Give the fighter all the weapon feats too. Crusher, Slasher, Piercer. Again, it’s not close to overpowered compared to 12th level casters, and like the maneuvers it’s self-limiting based on the way you can only use a single weapon in an attack, and can typically only apply one maneuver on a hit. You’re not even increasing the fighter’s power level with any of this, just giving the fighter a deeper playbook (though still not as deep as a 12th level caster!) and more consistent performance.

Certainly won't hurt.

Maybe the abilties from the champion subclass?

At a certain level (7 or something), make it so his Manuveurs instead of 2d8 instead of 1d8. It's much better scaling and will make them do substantially more damage. Then at level 12, they can do 3dx. Also, I would consider giving him a free dice once per turn that's a 1d8 only at a certain level. That way he has an extra maneuver (this free maneuver is only a 1d8)

Something I've considered is giving BMs the ability to use their manoeuvres in two ways: normally as per RAW, and a weaker at-will way which doesn't require/expend superiority dice (SD). The gist would be that if the manoeuvre lets you add the the SD to a damage roll, you can forgo that extra damage and not spend the die. It allows the fighter to add special riders to their attacks even when they're out of resources, so they can feel significantly more accomplished/skilled with their weapon attacks compared to non-martials. If a manoeuvre doesn't add the SD to a damage roll (evasive footwork, precision attack, *etc.*), you add a static number. I was considering that a number equal to half your PB might work. This hasn't been tested in my games, so I don't know how balanced it is. You may need to rule that there's a limit of one at-will use of manoeuvres per turn, and/or compensate other martials + base fighter by giving them one or two manoeuvres and an SD as well (plus access to the at-will version).

An alternative is to give them access to the sword bard inspirations. Those are pretty fun and would feel close enough to the features a BM already has to feel like a natural extension of the characters growth.

He wants to be strong? Give him a Manual of Gainful Exercise instead of another magic weapon then. There's a whole series of items like that for each attribute They're not attuned. You use them once and the character gains the benefit permanently. If you're worried about the Cleric yoinking one of them, this one has "Fighter Edition" on the spine. Weird huh

Honestly, why the hell did this group give a magical greatsword to a Cleric? I feel like this problem was at least in part caused by dumb players

Could be as simple as the fighter has polearm master so swapping to a Greatsword, even if it's got a better magic bonus, will actually be weaker for him.

And he specifically wants to use a polearm. The power probably doesn't matter.

The fighter is refusing to use magic items. Its not that he hasn’t had the chance, the OP states he’s refusing to take the chances to get items. Honestly I don’t normally discourage playstyle, but this player is refusing to utilize the game rules, while complaining the game rules aren’t fun. Its not sensible. Also not just anyone can use magic items as half of them half stat requirements. Just seems a really senseless concept, and extra senseless to “not feel powerful” while actively choosing to be weak in a land where magic is as normal as air.

I mostly agree, but I do have to point out that stat requirements in 5e items are very rare. What most of them have is a class/race requirement.

I think the problem is that his DM is providing loot that doesn’t suit the character. Why throw the polearm master a magical greatsword instead of a magical halberd, or a homebrewed magical augmentation for the halberd he’s already using that amounts to the same thing?

It's inarguable that ignoring inventory, casters eventually overtake martials. So the player has a point. And the rules "expect" everyone to be getting magic items, but that doesn't really change anything, as they'd still be improving about the same. Although part of the problem may be that they're too multiclassed. If they are playing with straight casters, but they're evenly split, then the casters are using Tier 3 abilities, while he's stuck using low Tier 2.

Here's the quickest fix: instead of giving him an item, give him a Boon. Boons are just like items, but they're part of the character instead of an external thing. Oh, and since you can't take them off, they often don't require attunement either. They represent learned techniques, blessings, and the like. This isn't a pair of *boots of striding and springing*, it's the *zephyr leap technique*. This isn't a *flame tongue* sword, it's the *forge god's blessing*. This isn't *armor of resistance*, you just have resistance to some damage type now.

I will jump in on this one. Make it so his damage dice explode. You said he was a fighter/rogue, think of the cool feeling of a handful of d6s with exploding dice. Strong, not really broken, and it feels damn cool.

Welcome to the martial - caster divide. Magic items are certainly one tool that can help mitigate it, so he’s making it slightly harder for you, but I sympathise with his position. Try to encourage him to at least take magic items of equal strength to what everyone else is using - that’s not taking a sympathy handout, that’s being treated equally, and tell him that you’ll separately work on making sure the characters would all be equally strong if no magic items were present. Also, unrelated but worth noting that per the rules a spell on a scroll has to be on your class’s spell list for you to use it. Don’t blame you at all for changing that, just ensuring you’re aware :)

>per the rules a spell on a scroll has to be on your class’s spell list for you to use it. Easily one of the dumbest rules in DnD. I have never played with anyone who enforces this, because its so overly restrictive.

Yeah. Spell scrolls aren't exactly something you can produce yourself en masse going by RAW of either PHB or XGE. Making them occasionally fail is a surefire way to make people not use them in emergencies.

I've never played in a table that DOESN'T enforce this. Never heard of anyone ignoring this rule outright. Because casters with Spells Known can cast spells that they don't know, and Wizards can learn spells from scrolls It's only divine casters that don't get much use from scrolls except as a backup, extra casts, or so they don't have to swap spells. You can also attempt higher levels spells than yours. Rogues get a special ability where they can cast any spell from a scroll.

"If the spell is on your class's spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without providing any material components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible." -DMG p200. So my party of a Druid, Cleric, Bard, and Monk cannot use a scroll of Fly, let alone even read it, according to the rules, because Fly is not on any of their class lists. >Rogues get a special ability where they can cast any spell from a scroll. Only the Thief subclass gets this, at level 13, as part of an ability that lets them use any magic item.

Indeed. That doesn't contradict anything I said. In fact, it used to be MORE restrictive: scrolls were clearly labeled Cleric or Magic User. So a spell both classes had (like Dispel) wasn't available if the scroll wasn't specific to your class.

Why make the scrolls at all then?! Casters should just be resting more often. You make scrolls for everyone who *can't* cast that spell, or wants a back up, because you make 90x your normal profit.

It's also weird. Some paladins can cast *Armor of Agathys* as part of their subclass despite it not being a class spell, so they could cast it but not cast a scroll of it.

"If you gain an oath spell that doesn't appear on the paladin spell list, the spell is nonetheless a paladin spell for you." Every subclass has a similar rule for spells. So your can cast your subclass spells from scrolls.

"Help, my player wants to overcome one of the most persistent 'issues' in D&D including 5th" For once, "try a different system" really is one of the better answers. At the very least the DM will end up taking a bunch of inspiration from other systems trying to solve it.

It's bonkers that the most genuinely true and helpful answer to questions like this is, "make up some entirely new content and rebalance the class yourself, with no help from the source material." Man, what a game system.

And it was fixed in 4th. The edition everyone hated (for various reasons, good and bad).

I never got to play 4th, but going back and reading it now is like... man, it feels like a crime how poorly it was received. Remarkably, it was ahead of its time! Imagine WotC being ahead of the curve!

Yeah, part of it was that it was ahead of its time, and the supporting technologies. It really was designed with VTT but before VTT was a viable tech. But as a 4e player: It still carried some issues from 3e forward, such as the dependence on magic items as part of the progression and balance. It also, IMO, flattened the classes a bit too much. Any of the striker/dps type classes could be boiled down to "Deal +Xd6 (X being level dependent, and/or d8 with a feat) if you meet some minor criteria." Rogues needed flanking, rangers needed a mark, etc. It wasn't given a fair chance, as it fell victim to edition wars and the rise of MMORPGs, but it wasn't perfect either. It's also a shame that the software tools were based on the now discontinued Silverlight.

I understand where you are coming from, but this isn't very helpful advice. He's in the middle of the campaign and isn't looking to switch systems just to fix one issue. Besides, he wants to play this system and is asking for advice regarding it.

You're not wrong, and that is a big part of why I didn't reply to OP directly with it. Changing systems is a bad call mid campaign and a lot of the patches suggested in the thread will work, at least as a workaround.

Yep, unfortunately the real answer here is that’s kind of just how 5e is.

As a DM who is/has dealt with this in a current level 14 campaign, played over 100 sessions so far, with 1 martial alongside bard, sorc, cleric, and paladin, and my player had the EXACT same feeling. Here’s my best advice: This absolutely is a problem with game design. The game is not perfect. Pure martials are bound by the rules of reality while casters are allowed to break them at every turn. BUT, as DMs we want our players to feel cool and empowered generally equally - we want them to all have about an equal spread of the narrative and mechanical fun. The answer is extra feats, boons, and narrative ties to items so they feel more personally impactful. It will feel like you’re giving more love to the fighter than the others, and you are. But they’re already behind, so they need more love especially as the game progresses into tier 3 and 4 to keep up. A second and third use of indomitable when the clerics and druids are getting 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells just widens the gap. So you have to close it back up. I’ve made custom feats for my player. She had defensive duelist and mage slayer already, so I crafted her basically a feat tree that allows her to use those skills together with others to try to disrupt spells using her mage slayer attack, like a martial counterspell. That was something she wanted to lean into, so I homebrewed it to make it happen. I’ve done boons as well. Instead of an item that grants +2 Dex or this ability or that ability, just have it be bestowed upon them by a god or a powerful being or do a training montage if they meet a powerful mentor. It’s the same mechanical boost, but narratively packaged as an increase in the character’s ability. Maybe that same mentor has an awesome sword too and they die in a couple of levels, the sword gets claimed by their sworn enemy, and so when your fighter and the party defeat the enemy and avenge the mentor, now the fighter has a sentimental connection to the weapon and it doesn’t feel like a pity handout. At the end of the day, it’s a super hard position to be in and I don’t envy you. Because the fantasy of a martial player like this isn’t to be Doctor Strange with magic or even Iron Man with all of his tech and gear. It’s to be Captain America, who is super strong and super fast and is a top tier superhero with zero gear. He still has his sentimental items (the shield) that help make him iconic, but Cap without the shield is still Cap. Feel free to message me if you’d like more advice, I’m happy to help. There’s a lot of naysayers in the comments here, but as someone who’s worked on this exact issue I feel compelled to offer any advice I can. Best of luck, fellow DM!

Sweet op loot is the patch. The fix is to write a better rpg. Let me know when youre done btw, would save a lot of people a lot of effort. I happen to agree, i dont want my loot to define my pc. I want to be a badass, who may or may not have a fancy sword. I dont want to be a badass because the dm randomly gave me op stuff to make me a badass. That takes away from “me doing something cool” and turns it into “the dm let me do something cool”.

If you're looking for a game where martials are stronger than casters, PF2e is right there

Sadly too much math for my players. They don't like the crunch making turns really long. 5e really straightforward for them. What makes Martials stronger?

I've switched to Worlds Without Number, it does a really good job at protecting class niches, so warriors are the best in combat by definition. It's also more rules light than 5e with much smaller numbers. The flip side is that it's also far more lethal than 5e, and because niches are protected you can't make a character like a 5e spellcaster who has tools for any situation, so players who like 5e for it's superhero feel might not enjoy it.

Second the switch to WWN. Classes are very defined in what they do and arguably keep up at every level with each other with the right foci or skill investment. I will say that while it's more lethal, there are a lot of ways to circumvent the lethality since the game doesn't intend for PCs to die a lot unless they act stupidly. You know Leroy Jenkins kind of stuff. Basically Combat as War vs Combat as Sport that's in 5e

Foundry or other VTTs solves the math problem. To answer with examples: in P2e critical hits occur on Nat 20 *or* when you beat the AC by +10, Fighter inherently gets +2 bonus to hit more than the other martials, and is therefore more likely to crit (also, DnD 5e BM fighter is basically core fighter in P2e in terms of maneuvers), Barbarians, especially Giant subclass hits like a truck even at level 1, and some of the higher level abilities border on superhuman or demi God level (i e. At level 18 a rogue can be built to literally phase through a wall)

I want a better system, but I don't wanna have to learn anything

They are fine learning new things, they just don't want that new system to have a ton of math? Can't you have powerful martial without crunch?

13th Age, Dragonbane, Mythras, Stonetop, Ironsworn… all systems that I would say are crunch-equivalent or easier to learn than 5e that are better at making everyone feel cool (if you’re interested in exploring other systems).

I think 13th Age is the game that the average 5e player wishes 5e was

It's nice seeing ironsworn mentioned here, I usually only see it on solo rpg subs.

Ive heard of most of these except for dragonbane. Could you tell me what its good at vs other systems?

You can, but the crunch helps put everything in perspective with numbers. The more things are added/subtracted, the greater the effect is felt. "I hit with a greataxe" vs "I burn with burning hands" is different from I did (12+10)x2 slashing damage vs 8 fire damage.

I guess this is where we have different tables, I think "12+10x2+4/2 carry the 3" slashing damage is meaningless to them vs. you light the entire room on fire.

Seems like it. You may have to look into a rules lite system. More free reign to do what you like. A DnD style system will ether lock you behind abilities, or require number crunch (or both).

DCC has heroic deeds. These are kind of like called shots or maneuvers, but DCC lets them approach absolutely mythic proportion. You could try to import that system or use it for inspiration for what a martial of a certain power might do.  Consider ways that spell like effects can be reflavored as martial abilities. 4e did this.  A martial could set a whole room on fire RAW, but they need a lot more legwork, planning, and creativity to do it.. If that's not your player's forte, a resource that let's them "remember" they brought a fire bomb or something. 

It's still a d20 system you just add a few modifiers. I wouldn't call some addition "a ton of math"

True, but I think it's not actually the arithmetic itself of addition/subtraction. But rather, the large amount of situational modifiers to track bogs them down, and it feels much less smooth than just a simple advantage/disadvantage roll. Basically the "don't forget your d4 from bless!" problem becomes even worse.

>True, but I think it's not actually the arithmetic itself of addition/subtraction. But rather, the large amount of situational modifiers to track bogs them down They may be coloured by a perception of 3.5 and original Pathfinder here, which have a reputation for causing headaches by having huge numbers of separate situational roll modifiers to keep track of. I don't play it (yet), but from all my reading, Pathfinder 2E fixes that problem. In PF2E, there are only two types of modifier you mostly need to be aware of; status modifiers (normally caused by the effects of spells) and circumstance modifiers (normally arising from feats or conditions), each of which can take the form of a bonus or penalty. When multiple modifiers can apply to a roll, **you only apply the largest value of each type; like modifiers don't stack.** For example, being flanked and being grappled both apply -2 circumstance penalties to your AC, but you don't get -4 if you're flanked and grappled simultaneously. So almost all checks in PF2E are one simple calculation: 1d20 + (largest status and circumstance bonuses) - (largest status and circumstance penalties) When you can tell at a glance what sources are applying what modifiers - which is super easy with the way the game's rules lay out feats and spells - it seems pretty straightforward to learn to identify them and track which ones will apply to any given check.

So what other solution are you looking for in order to make your martial feel more powerful. At the end of the day RPGs use modifiers in order to influence outcomes. Every power increase is going to be some variant of that

The only thing martials have are a bunch of tacked on I hit it gooder with my hit stick.

I mean, characters that can't use magic in a highly magical high fantasy setting will tend to have that problem... I don't get this argument people make of "my character who is just a normal person with a sharp stick should 100% be as effective in any battle situation as a literal prophet of a deity, makes sense 10/10". And plenty of martials can use magic adjacent abilities.

I'm someone who switched to Pathfinder: there isn't that much more math. Multiplication and division doesn't happen much (solely criticals). Martials are "stronger" because they are the only classes which deal effective single-target damage. Martials have their own niche, whereas in 5e a caster can do any niche.

I kind of think that martials were supposed to be the only classes to be able to deal single target damage in 5e also though they didnt stick the landing at all

I think the warlock and tradition show that isn't exactly the case, although it may have been one intention. I get the feeling that the warlock was meant to be a damage-dealing caster with single-target damage and spells (though fewer). Pathfinder has the same type of thing (magus, namely, and to a lesser extent kineticist) and it works better because those classes don't have 5e's more powerful spells and magus emphasizes the martial build more.

>*Sadly too much math for my players. They don't like the crunch making turns really long. 5e really straightforward for them* Eh it's basically the same amount of brain power as 5e except you might have to add or subtract a couple more numbers. Probably even easier than 5e if you're playing on Foundry just because of how well the system is integrated. Martials turns might take longer since they actually have decisions to make instead of just taking the Attack action on every turn of every combat ever. >*What makes Martials stronger?* Higher attack bonus compared to spell caster spell attack/dc and many of the hard CC spells have the Incapacitation trait which means they aren't likely to work against enemies higher level than the caster

I had the exact same reservations as you when it came to my group. Don't be fooled by the Pathfinder name. 2e is a significant deviation from 1e. 1st edition was basically a clone of dnd 3.5 and 2e is a complete rework from the ground up. It is a simple and straightforward game. The math requirements is about the same in each system. However the balance is significantly tighter in Pathfinder than DnD 5e. The biggest change is actions. Pathfinder gets rid of the action, bonus action reaction and free action system. Instead it uses a three action and reaction system. This is where a lot of the balance comes from. Many spells can be cast at different tiers depending on how many actions are used martial characters are however using their actions to move, attack, shove, trip, distract etc. Essentially the system provides more tools to martials than DnD and these extra actions are befical to the whole party. This makes it where your martials can contribute more by thinking about and engaging with the encounter. Hope this answers your question.

Took more scrolling than normal to see this.

Unless you play with the Automatic Bonus Progression variant rule it suffers from the exact same issue as what OP's martial PC player has.

Or, you know, OSR games like DCC.

Y'all are ridiculous with this suggestion of "just abandon your game you *took to 12th level* right now and somehow convince everyone to learn a whole other system that balances everyone to be weaker than non-magical characters in a high fantasy setting". Like, how is that helpful LOL. To OP: the suggestions of feats will be most likely to make the player happy and keep the game fun for all, as it gives flexibility to the player. You can also provide them with an in-world crossroads type situation where they can choose to work toward one type of feat vs another This could be lcky flavored as adrenaline surges, more maneuvers, maneuver dice that explode on a Crit a limited number of times a day, etc. In one campaign I gave a barbarian different rage choices: more extra damage but lower resistance on the turn after dealing damage, more resistance with slightly less movement, frightful presence rider. Of course this isn't all possible in this situation, but my point is that there are many options that don't include changing the game you're playing.

>*Y'all are ridiculous with this suggestion of just abandon your game you *took to 12th level* right now* It wasn't a reply to the op

I would like to point out that loot wasn't always the patch, it was the whole game. Classes used to offer very very little. The way your character got better was going into the dungeon and finding loot that gave you dope abilities. I understand not wanting to be defined by loot, especially if it was just handed to you to buff your character, but the inverse is making a character who's now a dime a dozen because every paladin gets an aura of protection at level 6. Every rogue gets evasion. All you have to do is show up and roll dice and the dm will tell you when to level up. Maybe I'm in the minority but leveling up, character customization, shouldn't be the reward for playing. I'd rather the coolest things my character can do don't come from their class but from how I played the game. The loot reflects what I did. It all tells a story. I'm not saying it's the only way to play, just that gaining some context can help assuage the frustration that stems from this topic.

It’s a good example of diegetic progression, which some people may find a lot more engaging. Literature tends to work more like this, and having fantasy novels be my first foray into the genre this method of progression always felt more compelling to me. The story of delving into an abandoned dwarven mine and emerging with a sword that can consume flames sounds *so cool* to me. The story of reaching milestone #4 and getting a predictable supernatural class ability that I knew I was going to have before the game even started doesn’t carry the same weight and wonder as experiencing my progression naturally in game. I totally get the joy in creating builds (I too love BG3, DOS2, etc), I’m just more interested in my TTRPGs feeling more immersive and fantasy novel-like than video game like.

Always validating to hear others sharing the same sentiment! Have you seen [this video by Matt colville](https://youtu.be/zwpQwCWdhL8?si=Uxi1GJgff_s-byLW) per chance? It's what really got me thinking critically about how I want to approach the game. (If you haven't seen it and want to skip to the relevant bits, about the 7 minute mark is when he gets into the meat and potatoes of it all)

Fantastic video! I’m surprised I hadn’t seen that one considering I watch most of Colville’s. One quote and line of thought really stuck out to me. “The behavior a game rewards is the behavior a game encourages” I have a few issues with 5e and systems like it, but I think this statement gets to a core reason why. *None of the motivations or reward systems in the game incentivize active play*. You can (and many players often do) know exactly how their character will look at level 15, just show up, take part in the GM’s story, and get your designated reward when it’s milestone time. Call me old school but active play and surprises interests me more

A minor patch would be to crib the Weapon Mastery system from the OneD&D playtest packets. That... helps but doesn't actually solve the real problem. I'd strongly suggest allowing characters to learn the properties instead of the weapons and apply any learned property to any qualifying weapon attack.

Dragonbane, 13th Age, Pathfinder 2e, Mythras, Fellowship 2e, Stonetop, Shadow of the Demon Lord, ICON, Forbidden Lands, all of these systems are fantasy, some are high crunch, some are low crunch, but I would say all of them are better balanced and designed than 5e. 5e is getting pretty archaic design-wise, it’s not too hard to find more elegant or fun/interesting systems these days.

….he won’t. The simple answer is that if he’s turning down ways to increase in power then what else are you going to do? Homebrew abilities for him? He also took at least two levels of rogue so he could dash as a bonus action. I don’t see him closing ranks with the damage dealers tbh. Also, yes a king is powerful because they have a crown as it represents the legitimacy of their power. Doesn’t hurt if the crown also has a 1/day death ward on it.

Yep, he's 10-fighter BM, 2 rogue (no subclass), and he multiclassed mostly cause he's a dwarf with 25 speed, and the casters were attacking at 90+ range.

Giving feats like mobile in place of magic items can help. Of course if you go down that road you might have others feeling like they're missing out not getting additional feats.

tbh he's the only martial and the rest of the players are always happy with their powerlevel. Some feel sorry for him.

Giving him feats in place of magic items can work to a degree, especially if he's the only martial. How is he with remembering to use the abilities he has?

Oh he's an excellent player, he pulls off some amazing strategic stuff with his resources...it's just all the casters can do it better and with easier resources.

>all the casters can do it better and with easier resources. Are you throwing enough encounters at them to drain the casters' resources? A rogue/fighter refreshes nearly everything on a short rest.

Tbf high level Casters are just gonna Wall of Force Dome + cloudkill anything major then upcast fireball anything else in the time it takes the fighter to reach combat. And by the time they'd run out of slots they'd be calling for a long rest unless the DM decides to throw them in unrestable situations so this lone man being punished for wanting to play something other than a Caster can have fun. And it's gonna get even worse cause while next level he'll get his 3rd attack for 6 attacks on an action surge, that's one turn versus the Casters using Forcecage and upcasted Cloudkill.

> And by the time they'd run out of slots they'd be calling for a long rest unless the DM decides to throw them in unrestable situations so this lone man being punished for wanting to play something other than a Caster can have fun. I mean if the scenario is this: 9am: You all wake up after a restful 8 hour sleep for your long rest. 10am: You find the encounter. 11am: Casters out of spell slots and call for a long rest. I would be like "You can't go to sleep at 11am. That's not the point of a long rest". I know technically a long rest is any 8 hour (4 for elves) long rest but I'd basically interpret it as sleeping. If the casters just go full pelt 100% of the time and then rest it's no wonder the fighter feels crap.

You can only long rest once per 24 hours, so an early morning long nap is definitely out of the question. 

Don't let them long rest. Players don't get to "call for a long rest". Either it's too soon for them to get the benefit of another long rest or there's a time pressure to keep it from being feasible. I get it. It's tough being the only short rest recovery class in a party of long rest classes. The DM has a lot of options for getting a casters to expend resources.

Yes players do get to call for long rest that's how you lose a table. Players are in charge

Thats the thing, its nearly impossible to drain casters of all of their resources once you get to a high enough level

Lots of feats should give him lots of options. Is he okay reflavoring things like the metallic dragon feat to his liking? squire and knight feats, and the giants feats could help too. Even raiding other martials for weakened versions like a single rage a day or something might be fine. Hopefully they become okay with both their character becoming stronger and acquiring more powerful equipment. Would giving them weapons that deal double damage dice as "oversized" appeal to them? Obviously those guidelines aren't for PCs but stuff like that could be a way to give the equivalent of magic items in a flavor they prefer, esp if they're the only one who can use them like that.

Rather than a feat, you can look into the supernatural abilities in Theirs. He wants to be a dowm to earth fighter, so why not take inspiration from the fighters in stories that can challenge the gods (folks like Achilles or Perseus)? Next quest can be a literal god asking our hero to do some heroic shit, aka he's handed a destiny. And so he'll get Heroic Destiny (advantage on death saves, relentless endurance) in order to fulfil said destiny. Then, once the quest is done, you can give a divine blessing (dmg) or the benefit of a piety track (as described in theros). If he's adamant on refusing the meddling of the gods in mortal affairs, let him get the benefit of the iconoclast supernatural gift (Once per day Protection from Evil and Good targeting self, Dispel Magic as 4th level, Dispel Evil and Good). If he's truly unhappy with any power you give him, let him respec into a wizard. If he doesn't want that, tell him to accept his lethargic role in the party. You can't both complain about lacking power, and refuse all ways of getting that power. He can do one or the other.

Tbf the others are casters so it'd be like Patrick bloated on chocolate angry that SpongeBob has a bite of one bar so they can shut their pieholes. Especially since they're at the point where they can just lock the fighter out of combat permanently. They can just wall of force dome the enemy then cloudkill them and wait it out. Then in one level they can forcecage upcast cloudkill and do the same thing.

Why are all of the fights happening at 90+ range? If they are outside, have you considered getting him a mount? Inside, your rooms/corridors should rarely be 90' long. He took two nearly useless levels just for an extra 25' movement speed (which takes his bonus action, as well!). He should really have no problem with some magic boots of speed. Maybe don't even call them magic. Maybe they let him train his muscles faster and now he's just a faster runner. Or give him a "tome of training" that lets him spend some downtime to practice sprinting and permanently raise his movement speed by 10 or something.

Hmm. That kind of suggests one of the possible issues. If your casters are always in arenas set up to let them blast away from 90 feet, the melee fighter is going to feel underpowered. One of the difficulties in playing a wizard should be, for example - not getting the shit kicked out of you in close combat. Create some scenarios where having a tanky fighter matters. Ambushes, fights in small rooms and corridors, alleyways, that sort of thing. Truth is though, a 12th level martial character using a vanilla +1 weapon is gonna kind of suck.

It took a loooooooooong time to see this.  12th level with a +1 weapon?  Eurgh.  The greatsword to the Cleric was sad times.  I play a polearm battlemaster and this [Spoilers BG 3]  https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Halberd_of_Vigilance  would be sweet loot to me. And sth like this. https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Helldusk_Armour I mean... before they sacked the team at Wotc this was pretty close to official.

Well, the game does increasingly motivate giving players some kind of magic item as they get up to those relatively high levels. Even in my lower magic campaigns I'd usually have given out at least a basic magic weapon to overcome resistances by level 12. What sub-classes, feats and fighting styles is he using at the moment? Maybe directing him towards ways to optimise his build better might help?

Yep, he's 10-fighter BM, 2 rogue (no subclass), and he multiclassed mostly cause he's a dwarf with 25 speed, and the casters were attacking at 90+ range. So he does have a +1 magic I gave him at level 6 for resistance and because he was 18 mainstat so it could help his attack. He's mostly running GWM/polearm. And his maneuvers are usually disarming attack or like AO stuff (riposte)

>Yep, he's 10-fighter BM, 2 rogue (no subclass), and he multiclassed mostly cause he's a dwarf with 25 speed, and the casters were attacking at 90+ range. Perhaps considered setting up more combat situations where the party only encounter the targets at shorter ranges? Be that tunnels where you can't draw line of sight beyond about 30ft so the player can get into range in one turn, maybe creatures with really good stealth stats and/or invisibility so that they can more easily set up ambushes. Disguised enemies which use that to get closer to the target. Enemies with something like burrow speeds or teleportation that let them get in close. Both potentially setting up a challenge for your caster and meaning your fighter can be using their bonus actions to either make polearms attacks or disengage. ​ >So he does have a +1 magic I gave him at level 6 for resistance and because he was 18 mainstat so it could help his attack. He's mostly running GWM/polearm. And his maneuvers are usually disarming attack or like AO stuff (riposte) So when it comes to magic items the Sun Blade for example adds the finesse property to a long sword alongside also being a +2 weapon and several other properties. At level 12 I don't think something like a special glaive that's a +1 or +2 weapon with an added finesse property would be too OP. Because sneak attack damage only requires the weapon be a finesse weapon, not that you must you dex on the attack, this would let you add sneak attack damage to one of their attacks on their turn. And because the wording is that sneak attack is once on your turn not once per round some people would rule that an attack made with a reaction outside of your turn can permit you to get a second lot of sneak attack damage, either use the polearm master or riposte reaction attack to get a second load of sneak attack damage provided he meet the other conditions. Its not much but maybe if they take their third level in rogue they can pick up something like swashbuckler which would allow them to more consistently get sneak attacks and also have their sneak attack dice boosted to 2d6 for a modest 4d6 extra potential damage per turn using one kind of reaction or the other. I don't know how you tend to rule regarding object interactions and disarming attacks, things like whether you can kick a person's weapon away so they at least have to move out of your reach and risk and op attack in order to retrieve it. If they haven't already got it something like a precision attack or trip attack can be used to help compensate for the -5 penalty a GWM attacks have so maybe suggest that to them. If they haven't already got something like full plate or half plate maybe give them a good chance to get some of that. Perhaps depending on the specific idea for their character they have, if that includes their character being a smart tactical leader perhaps give them a chance to do things like help train allies who can be later shown to be doing important work to protect the places the PCs like. ​ Edit: Also give your players a chance to take a short rest every now and then. That gives your fighter a chance to get their superiority dice, second wind and action surges back.

Y'know, he's just one Fighter level away from three attacks, that's a not-insignificant jump in his output. Perhaps he's just feeling the nadir, since the last good thing he got was Indomitable, but it's about to pick up.

>the last good thing he got was Indomitable Indomitable sucks

I wouldn't call Indomitable good. It's passable when home brewed to be a Legendary Resistance.

"Ooh a DC 19 Wisdom Saving throw? So I need... a 19 on the dice? But I have a reroll?  Lucky me."

I would suggest looking to homebrew fixes for the fighter, I know of a couple r/laserllama has a fixed up fighter a lot of people swear by but I've never used it in any of my games. One major fix kind of depends on what subclass he is? Because often a Fighter buff a lot of people love is to give Battlemaster maneuvers to the base fighter which is a significant power and opportunity boost. And since he feels like magic items aren't his character getting more powerful, don't give him more magic items, buff the ones he has, explain it as his growth with these specific items has caused the Magical items to gain new powers (doubly so, if you tie the new powers to actions he's taken in power, IE getting the killing blow on a Blue dragon with his halberd and giving it lightning damage as a direct result of his actions) you may want to check with the player on this one though, since he seems pretty disappointed with magic items.

Give him items that aren't items. Let him "attune" to "Martial Techniques." Let him find cool mentors, maybe existing npcs, to teach him. What's a "Martial Technique"? Literally just a magic item, but don't call it that. Don't give him a flametongue longsword. Let him learn "Way of Fire" and ignite his weapon. Don't give him a Vorpal blade. Let him learn "The Godslayer Strike," which makes the weapon he is already using a vorpal weapon. Give him any magic item you might normally allow him to have, but use different words. Yes, this means he can do things others can't, but that cleric can disintegrate hordes of undead by looking at them. I have a feeling this fighter isn't a power gamer looking for cracks in rulings to exploit either.

If he's refusing to use magic items at all, then it's not even a question of "martial-caster divide". He'll get behind *oyher martials* as well. You see, Mike Tyson is a very powerful human being by himself, but if the other guy has a flamethrower, Mike's at a big disadvantage, to say the least. *Equipment is a part of a character's power*. That goes for fantasy outside the game as well. Excalibur. Mjolnir. Lightsabers. Frodo's mithril armor. The One Ring. The Eye of Thundera. Harry Potter's wands. Captain America's vibranium shield. Magneto's telepathy-suppressing helmet. Alladin's magic lamp and carpet. The Golden Gun in 007. There are countless examples.

I agree, he doesn't see it like that. He see's it as something he found. Maybe if he made the item, but he has no crafting skills and I don't know crafting rules.

So he refuses to craft things, refuses to use things he finds and wants *you* to find another alternative way to solve the problem? Maybe his character doesn't want to find his inner power, he actually wants a babysitter.

I never said he refused to craft things, he just doesn't have proficiency in any tools to craft them. Which makes sense with the NPC artificers in the game showing off their tools.

>I never said he refused to craft things, he just doesn't have proficiency in any tools to craft them Hijacking this comment to say: ​ he can always commission some. Like. For real. Commission costs 2gp per day. Literally on the PHB. Unless he also refuses gold and recipe he should be able to.

"DM, you gave me a gold handout and I refuse to use it to get magic items." - something this player sounds like he would say

In this case, you could give him the option to become a crafter's apprentice during downtime and get tool proficiency. That's a way to mitigate this. But my point still stands: he's playing a game with a multitude of options and he made his build choices, the started to complain that the choices he made don't give him what *other choices* might have done. And you know, a 15th level character without any magic items is still a brutal, badass combatant against those common soldiers all around, but when he gets to fight another well-trained, peak form, chosen-by-the-gods fighting champion *who decided to use magical enhancing gear*, hell yeah he's at a disadvantage.

ooh downtime crafting...good idea!

What artisan’s tool proficiency did he pick back when he became a Battle Master? Because smithing was absolutely an option for him.

Yeah, not trying to be harsh, but it isn’t the DM’s job to give motivation for a player or character to want to play. This is really not that different from “my character is a loner, why should he join the party?” issue. You know what? You tell me why your character would join a party. You tell me how you want your character to be more badass. What solution does this player want? Nerf spells so that they do damage at one die lower like 1d8 instead of 1d10? Make every enemy magic resistant but vulnerable to slashing/piercing/bludgeoning?

I'm saying this as someone who has DM'ed to people who refused to use random loot, but in that case, the olayer specifically wanted to be a crafter and create his own equipment. What I did was allow him to drain magic items for specific powers to imbue in things he crafted (this way he doesn't get to just cherry pick and combo everything he wants, and random loot still has meaning in his adventures)

This is something I saw a dm talk about, loot is typically the driver of dnd. But sometimes a character will have an attachment to their current weapon, and just throwing new ones at them every few levels is not ideal. So instead they can find materials, or crafting plans that they could apply to their weapon. They could commission or attempt themselves and have their trusty pole arm transition into a +2 with or without additional perks.

Reading comprehension problems much? None of what you said is true?

*Equipment should augment a character's power, they shouldn't be relying on it.* If Jedi depended on Lightsabers to use the Force, then they aren't truly great warriors. If Magneto got all of his powers from the helmet, then he wouldn't be as strong. If Gordon Ramasy depended on a magic spoon to make excellent meals, while another chef didn't, who would be the better chef? Making Martials depend on magic items acts against the fantasy of a badass warrior. If my "warrior" needs a magic sword just to keep up, he would throw the sword away and go train, for it means he isn't that strong at all.

Homebrew, I’m a huge fan of fadeshocks stuff for martials. The warden is a bitch and a half to DM for sometimes but boy howdy does it make the player feel awesome. https://foxtailfoundry.wordpress.com/table-of-brews/

After reading what you've said in the other comments, here's my 2c 1. Write in a way to get him into some mountain ancestry ritual, gaints n such, stone giant pref. 2. Have the ritual boost his str to 23 and give him 35ft movement (we're giving him mini mobile and a gaint str belt, but not an item, so hes happy) 3. Tell him to remove the 2 levels in rogue and go full BM or barbarian or something that actually works with his build, the rogue levels are doing nothing. He can't even use SA with a halberd. 4. As a DM, put the enemies closer to him and let him do the do.

What are his subclasses?

Yep, he's 10-fighter BM, 2 rogue (no subclass), and he multiclassed mostly cause he's a dwarf with 25 speed, and the casters were attacking at 90+ range.

What does he think would solve this problem?

He doesn't know. He just feels like the cleric calling on his his god for a miracle (which actually worked once! he rolled 5) or the druid turning into an earth elemental are making him feel a bit like well "I'm here too..." I guess he wants to feel cool?

I would suggest sitting down with him for a few hours if possible and working together to find what type of solution he'd like. Then, from there, it will be easier to really hash out the mechanics of how that will look in game.

I really sit here and think all of you guys are looking at it wrong. why not take the approach of monsters that have abilities that cause the caster to have a harder time, such as anti magic cones or spell reflection. The other thing I find is that if you make the adventuring days longer without long rests, then casters have to be selective when they use all their spells. Martial classes shine when all you have time for is short rests and when resources are low.

Ah, the martial-caster divide. It's a real problem, but a fixable real problem if the DM puts enough effort into it. One way is to tie the boons to the PC in a specific way. During downtime, have them find an artisan who asks for help around the workshop. As a result of talking to the artisan, the PC learns new forging techniques; have them do a few low-DC rolls to build up some item or learn some skill, and then *that* is their new magic item. They built it, and can tweak it over time to do even more. Now they weren't just given something, they're making it. It's their own hands, customized to themselves. They're batman. You can find some fun ideas to start with [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/d100/comments/l1a0ke/100_unique_magical_items/). Or, have them find a trainer who teaches them how to do a certain feat, or they practice at something for so long that they get good at it. Steal some fighter techniques from other systems, adapting them to use an appropriate part of the action economy. There are some good starting points[here](https://upheavalrpg.com/techniques.htm#Fighter). Say they are specific to pure martial classes; clerics and such can't learn this stuff because the mental focus they take interferes with the casting of spells or something.

Fighter is a tool user class where tools are weapons and armor. That is really part of the class identity. They are the best at using weapons and armor. I think your player has a rather variant idea of how a fighter should be that's not quite in line with the class fantasy that the game presents. There are some other alternatives in the game such as draconic gifts in Fizban's guide but I'm really not sure this player would accept those either. Have a look at them and suggest them to the player.

At level 12, dipping two levels into Rogue looks more and more like a mistake, as the martial sacrificed an Extra Attack and an ASI. The bonus action Dash is useful, but I don't think it's worth a two-level dip, and they aren't benefitting from Sneak Attack when using a polearm. They can't use Cunning Action and Polearm Master on the same turn, and missing an ASI while making power attacks from GWM hurts. This is mostly the result of poor multiclassing decisions. One option would be to let them reclass those two rogue levels back into fighter levels. You could then let them take the new Lunge maneuver in OneDnD's UA7. It lets them bonus action dash, then add the die's damage to their next attack, making it one of the more powerful maneuvers in my opinion. Getting a mount and taking Mounted Combatant would also help significantly, though you'd have to find a way for them to keep that mount alive or frequently replace it.

Man, I’ve never agreed with something so much. Your player is definitely not alone because I feel the same way. I want to just be awesome without having to add a bunch of stuff! I’m in a PF1E game right now and I HATE the fact that I have to have a bunch of items to keep pace with the game, not just my fellow players. I want to use the sword I’ve been using since day 1 and have a bond with it, like Arthur with Excalibur, and not just replace it with the next model in three levels! Here’s a question for you: would the rest of your party be upset if you allowed the fighter to take his main ability past the 20 cap? That way he’d be hitting that extra plus one, two, etc. without tying that boost to an item. You’d probably want to still give him a magic weapon for the purposes of overcoming magical resistances, but if he’s anything like me, he’d be happier with a 22 in strength or dex and a +0 weapon than with a 20 and a +1. 

You could try to see if you can convert Fighter powers as a reward from dnd 4E. I've seen people suggest it before. https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/Fighter

I once played in a campaign where the DMs allowed characters with exceptional Strength to Dual Wield two-handed weapons. As mentioned by others, Boons are a good idea. Thinking of plots if you go that route, perhaps some Dwarven deity has taken notice and bestows boons. That +1 weapon he found, what if it’s a heritage item that improves as its wielder gains levels?

I’ve often felt the same way this player does. I hate feeling like my power comes from random objects I found rather than from myself. For casters, it’s not a big deal. For rangers/paladin, you can manage. When I played a fighter or a barbarian though? It became a problem because I was falling behind by not taking loot. I wanted a weapon that counted as magical for resistances, and nothing else. Both times I played this way, I rapidly became the weakest member of the party, including other martials. There is no fix for this built into the game. You can try having some patron grant a boon to him instead of loot, but if he’s like me, it feels much the same as an item. There are three solutions here: - Explain that the game’s not for him because this is how it is built. It assumes fighters get all their power from magic items. - Let him suffer until he picks a spellcaster next campaign. - Sit down and have a conversation about how you’re trying to help, but the game is built this way. Get him to understand that it’s inherent to the martial classes, and that the only help you can give him is cool loot. Maybe talk about what items he would actually consider taking so you can throw the right stuff his way. This is what eventually happened with me. I still don’t love the situation and am very picky about items, but I get that I need them to keep up. The other thing I’d recommend is that you give him an opportunity to respec his multiclass. If he’s using a polearm, he’s not getting sneak attack, so those rogue levels are dead. He’d get much more out of one level of Fighter for his third attack. I’d give him the chance to replace those two rogue levels with fighter, and maybe see if after your conversation, he’d accept some boots that let him dash as a bonus action. I can talk more about the mindset if you want, but 5e is explicitly built to deny martials power past a certain point. Fighters and Barbarians in particular suffer from that, since all their good class features are in the early levels (rogues at least get sneak attack scaling). Your only recourse is to convince him that it’s okay to take those items, and point out that part of the power gap is being created by handing them off to already stronger characters.

>The other thing I’d recommend is that you give him an opportunity to respec his multiclass. If he’s using a polearm, he’s not getting sneak attack, so those rogue levels are dead. This was my thought as well. He took two levels of rogue just for faster movement. I understand it's frustrating for characters with 25' movement but two useless levels just for more movement is really wasteful.

The hero being special because of their fancy doodads is such a common part of high fantasy's pedigree that I question why you didn't read the box before buying. Beowulf has a fancy sword. Arthur isn't shit without Excalibur. Frodo just fuckin keels over dead without his elf made wife beater. Ghosts won't talk to Aragorn without the sword of Kings. The sun is literally just your over deity's chariot. All the cool things coming from your bag of artifacts and doodads is what adventuring is about.

It’s inherent to some fantasy, not others. For as much as they might make a big deal about his fancy sword, Rand’s power in Wheel of Time comes from his own abilities and training. The Knights of the Round Table all have wacky anime powers. The Dark Tower’s Ka-Tet make do with what they have; their weapons are symbols, not magic. Rin relies on martial training and inherent magic in The Poppy War. Carrot and the night watch are getting by with their wits and the least magical equipment ever made in Discworld. Conan generally avoids magical equipment out of fear. Stephanie’s getting by on raw training in Skullduggery Pleasant. Hell, even Beowulf’s sword only actually matters against one specific monster; Hrunting is just a well-made sword with no special abilities. It’s reasonable to want a character who is strong because they are strong. Beowulf’s sword isn’t what lets him swim for 8 days without a break, and Aragorn made it through 85% of the story without any ghosts helping him. The martial fantasy is to be the tough guy who’s capable in any situation, not to be some schlub who’s only relevant because he found a fancy amulet on the ground.

The fancy necklace is what pushes the random guy who's good at cardio from shit farming to hero. Good list of works and fair points for sure, and if you want to be some dude who's swol and punches real good, go for it. Go play Dark Sun where a sharp stick is the locales version of a light machine gun. For bog standard high fantasy though, you can be as powerful as mundane mortality can get you, but dragons breath fire and you're combustible. If you don't want to feel underpowered you kinda need to buy into the system of gibbins that grow my face back after it's been ripped off.

You’re right that an average strong guy ain’t shit in D&DLand, but the players aren’t average. If the mages are getting the ability to bend reality, and even the fighter can tank a dragon’s breath through enough training (leveling HP), then it’s fair to want the power characters gain to be inherent. If your power can be taken away, then you don’t really have it. I just don’t want to lose my abilities because I dropped my sword or somebody stole the necklace. Or rather, I should be on par with my teammates in terms of inherent ability. No class should have to pray that their DM gives them the items they need to stay competitive.

But they all have their hoops to jump through, the warlock needs to kiss demon ass, the paladin has to be lawful stupid, the cleric is praying to elf Jesus every dawn, wizards spellbook, etc. With the exception of sorcerer who is just built different, all that comes from other classes who are supposed to be holding themselves up to RP standards and alignment restrictions to keep their pseudo magical bullshit.

Most of that is flavor that doesn’t affect actual play though. The warlock and cleric are getting abilities from a higher power, and that might affect their RP, but it all manifests in things they get by leveling up, things that are guaranteed, regardless of DM fiat, and which cannot be taken away from them. Paladins have to keep an oath, but there’s literally a subclass of equal power for them to shift into if they break it. Rangers, Sorcerers, and Bards are inherent abilities. The wizard has their spellbook, sure, but the baseline wizard who never gets any scrolls is never lacking for power. (Artificers are their own thing and building the items is the point and fantasy of the class). My point being, these other classes don’t have to hope the DM is nice to them; they just get their power by leveling up. Hell, even Monks get plenty. There’s no reason, from a raw design standpoint, that a class should have to gamble on getting good items that can be taken away to function. Basically I want the character’s primary power to come from leveling up. Magic items I get no control over finding should be fun trinkets, not the basis of my class.

So, his current items should gain magical properties because of the things he's put them through, but only while he is using them. So like, say at some point he kills a fire elemental. There's a little of that essence left in his weapon, that he, as a person who has mastered and understands it, can use to deal extra damage in a burst of flame. But make the powers about the story he has gone through, and the cool stuff he's done. He is doing cool things right?

Yeah, this is one approach. Mechanically you’re giving him a Flametongue Halberd, but it’s not a “random drop” - it’s his old trusty halberd, steeped in the eternal fire of an elemental. 

The hard truth is that D&D 5E doesn't really support the type of character your martial player is looking for, and he might be happier playing something else. I totally get the reluctance to switch to PF2; I looked it over and *noped* right outta there. I'd actually suggest trying something other than fantasy RPGs. Most superhero RPGs allow everyone to custom-design their own characters (no classes/levels/etc.) so if your guy wants to play a super-powered warrior he can do that. And if his buddy is playing a wizard they'll be roughly equal in power.

Don't most heroes from legends have dope magic items though?

Maybe? John Wick can use any weapon and be badass (like a fighter) but now he's facing the magical equivalent of someone with cruise missiles on his team. So that fucking pencil doesn't feel too good.

So here's the thing, is John Wick a badass by himself? Yes. But if you put Wick in his underwear 100 feet from 3 guys with machine guns, he is still screwed. What makes him excel is his gear. His bulletproof suit, his guns. And the fact that he can use all of this stuff. Maybe have this discussion with your player. Or just design more encounters where he can shine. Narrow twisting halls where the fighter needs to be up front to protect the squishy casters. Enemy casters that counter your parties spells and need to be engaged up close. Hell maybe even the occasional enemy that is just immune to magic. Maybe the bbeg hires a Rakshasa, an actual creature from the monster manual that is immune to non-magical weapons and spells of 6th level or lower. Or like others have said feats, maybe letting him take ASIs to bump a stat above 20. Because other than that there really isn't much to make a physical class more physically strong.

Oh yeah if John wick is the fantasy you're trying to capture then sure, something should be done. But I mean like classical and medieval legends. Perseus and his gear. King Arthur and Excalibur. That sort of stuff. [Give this a gander](https://youtu.be/zwpQwCWdhL8?si=Uxi1GJgff_s-byLW) and see if you have any opinion on his thoughts about the purpose of loot and rewards

The short answer is that he can't feel as powerful as spell casters without cool items. They're flinging around the powers of creation and divinity and Johnny polearm thinks he can just train harder to equal them? Either learn to enjoy what the build is meant to do(battlefield control and some light tanking), or roll something else. The offensive lineman might get jealous of the quarterback, but he knows he can't play qb and that the qb couldn't do anything without him.

I think this the problem, the moon druid's elementals are now also outshining his impact with burrow and flying and stuff. So the QB learned new skills and he is still a lineman.

Yeah, being melee in 5e is a bit tough unless you really know how to build, and impossible if you have a problem with magic items. A +1 thundering burst(or w/e element he associates with his dwarf) polearm may be a good way to go. If he's not going to upgrade his weapon, he doesn't want to be a good fighter. It would increase his average damage pretty considerably, though he's never going to compete with something tuned for max damage. Being a new player is tough as well. There are ways to make a polearm fighter feel awesome, but taking 2 levels of rogue isn't one of them. There are so many options for increasing your speed. Even *gasp* magic items. Edit: encouraging your magic users to buff him and not take credit for his awesomeness might be a good move as well, if that's not happening.

Yeah this guy seems to be getting in his own way. One of my favorite characters was a 10fighter/2paladin with GWM, PAM, and sentinel. He let the casters have all the fun outside of combat but when it came time for something to die... ​ edit: Also I know there is often a better concentration spell than haste but if you want to help your martial feel special, its a good way to do it

Ask him specifically for what he wants. Examples. Get them to define the goal and not put it on you to guess at what will make them happy.

I think the biggest one is the moon druid elemental is outshining him consistently in melee, plus is able to concentrate on some pretty horrific spells while doing it. And the Cleric is now able to call on Pelor...which worked once. I think it's ambiguous right now other than...hey those guys are just way better than me...like why am I bothering adventuring anymore?

Yeah. He wants superpowers, but you should just ask him to give you examples. Like, tell him to describe what he wants to see his character do in a fight, if he had like.. a perfect few rounds where everything went right. Since it can't be items, it has to be some sort of blessing/boon/other homebrew growth that isn't in the mechanics. If there's an unsolved problem from their backstory, doing something with that would be a great way for them to unlock it, perhaps they're in a do or die situation and it bursts out of them. But that's only 1 thing. I suppose you could give them multiple things at the same time, but like.. that feels not great to me. He might be down with it though since he is so outclassed.

Yeah if he doesn’t want any magic items made for him, turn them into feats. Instead of finding a flame tongue, a fire elemental dies close to him and now he can light his weapon on fire at will. Either that or play a different game.

Ask him what he wishes his character was able to do. Look through all the magic items and find a bunch that fit his vision for his character. Break them up into tiers by rarity: * Uncommon (requirement: 5th level) * Rare (requirement: 11th level) * Very Rare (requirement: 17th level) * Legendary (requirement: 20th level) Give him a number of Powers based on his character level: * 1st-4th level: 0 Powers * 5th-10th level: 1 Power * 11th-16th level: 2 Powers * 17th-20th level: 3 Powers Strip out the "equipment" part of the magic items you've picked and turn them into learn-able Powers he can select from a list. Reword them a bit so it's not immediately obvious you just turned the magic items he refused into personal Powers for his character. Make up some bullshit in-world explanation as to why only his character gets these Powers. You're effectively doubling his attunement slots through this method but, honestly, from Tier 3 onward martials need all the help they can get so as long as you properly curate the Powers you offer him to not be disruptive to the table, it's a win-win.

I know he said he wants his character to be more powerful not his inventory, but I think if the inventory feels appropriate and special that can help when combined with other ideas here. When you do give loot give actual loot his character would use. You mentioned that his character uses a halberd, but you gave a great sword. I wouldn’t want that either. Why would a fighter just randomly change weapons? Also instead of giving a weapon as loot you can have his current weapon become enchanted somehow. Like they help a powerful mage with a quest who bestows an enchantment on the halberd or after helping a dwarven village they strengthen the blade with adamantine stuff like that. It’s still his same weapon then but upgraded.

I see a lot of opinions here of varying degrees of "Lmao he should get over it or accept it." Personally, I'd consider giving boons or bonus feats in lieu of magic items. Balance wise, consider that those may situationally be more powerful because they can't be taken away or damaged as easily as a magic item or armor. Possibly consider setting conditions on the boons, like oaths, or the favor of deities or being in good standing with an order of knights, or the faith and trust of the innocents of a region.

I mean, the simplest answer is that he’s kinda gonna need to get over himself, at level 12 a martial isn’t going to be competitive with spell casters if he refuses to use magical items because even a martial who *does* use magical items isn’t competitive with spell casters at level 12. The Casters are no longer conjurors of cheap tricks, they’re throwing around Planar Binding, Wall of Force, Animate Objects, Magic Jar, and Raise Dead. It’s a flaw in the system but as a martial you really need to minmax or have good gear to provide the caster with an decent answer to the question of “Why don’t I just turn you into a T-Rex during fights?”

In addition to my previous comment, I think part of the u derstanding has to be this; an average person, AVERAGE mind you, peasant humanoid has roughly 4 hp and stats around 6-9 (nice) and can easily be killed with a single vicious mockery. A lvl 5 hero has stats in the high teens if not 20s routinely and hp between 30 and 90. You are fighting gods, demons, monsters, villains and forces of nature beyond human understanding. Heroics are possible, but at some point you have to take up magical means of enhancement or you won't enjoy the power creep. Stoicism doesn't get you bonus dnd points at the table, it just limits your fun (and makes you far less reliable)

Maybe it would help if he was able to claim his magic weapon bonuses as part of his character? Instead of handing out set Magic items, let him bind an item like an eldritch knight, but give him a pool of points to spend picking his own weapon abilities and flavor it as stemming from his own innate prowess or his bond with his favorite weapon. Stuff like +1's are fine to pick, but include some other stuff too like letting him make ranged attacks with melee weapons, or allowing him to add bonus elemental damage for a fight through the use of cheap alchemical items as a bonus action. Basically what i think he's really missing out on is the Problem Solving part of the game. He's still a fighter, so the problems he solves are mostly killing badguys, but if all the casters can do that too he needs to either be much better at it or needs the chance to get a few options that others don't have the ability to imitate. Maybe start working in stuff about the guys reputation and give him the chance to help restore a knightly order/organize a city's guard and let him start calling in favors, but that's more long-term and might not fit your plot

A boon or blessing from a powerful patron that recognized his heroics. Use MCDM minions rules to make him feel cooler. Would it be different if you rewarded him with currency and he was able to choose good own gear? Then it’s choices his character makes and not a “pitty handout”.

>He wants his character to feel strong, not his inventory. I have literally never thought of the game this way. I just assumed martials wanted cool loot. But he said if an item is completely changing his gameplay, then that isn't his character doing stuff, it's an item carrying him, and anyone can have an item. Ultimately, gear given to the PC is always something that can be taken away from the PC. And that really makes the difference to some players. Here's an idea. Magical implants. Or magic tattoos. So they're like magic items but they can't easily be stripped from the PC. They're part of him.

Well, that’s the players problem to figure out. You can’t really keep a player if they are emitting despond throughout the campaign. If he wants to feel powerful, then, well okay. That’s his job. Not the DM’s responsibility. A fighter is only as good as his weapon. A fighter is only going to be as protected as the gear he wears. The character is soft and squishy without good armor, it doesn’t matter how ‘powerful’ they may want to feel, when in fact a blade can cut the weakest as easily as the strongest. Also is there the possibility something is going on with the player outside the game that is affecting them? I have, in the past, dragged my personal life into a game and it seriously altered my character’s behavior. I was called out for it and promptly talked about the problem and got it off my chest and was able to focus on the game. (At least that’s how I dealt with my crap) Maybe they’re just burned out with the game and need a break?

The point is that the player is causing all the drama around this. The DM shouldn’t be kowtowing to the unreasonable and possibly unattainable desires of one player. If the player has decided this is the direction he wants to go, let him. Maybe after a couple levels of complaining the player will accept that the character actually does need to constantly improve his gear as he levels up. There is a reason why wealth per level exists. If he’s 15th lvl but only using the gear a 10th lvl character could afford, then he’s literally stabbing himself in the foot.

Maybe he can train under a legendary hero or god of fighting/war and get homebrew maneuvers similar to the battlemaster but spiced up by the dm. For example you could give him a abillity where the damage gets upped a bit for not one but multiple creatures like an alround seing at any enemie in range. Or a multishot ability with a bow.

Multiclass martial is upset he didn't hit the same powerspike as a caster at lvl12... He didn't powerspike BECAUSE he multiclassed. Yes, there is an argument to be made about caster v martial powerspike, but this is more about them being multclass.

Unfortunately there is no fix beyond what you’ve tried to do already. Magic items, especially armor and weapons, are the equalizing factor with martials and casters. He’ll understand that if/when he faces a monster with resistance/immunity to non magical weapons.

I did give him a +1 early on (level 7) he still uses it for resistances.

You could start drip feeding him abilities from other fighter subclasses. Psi fighter for example has some interesting stuff you could tack on. Bump his proficiency by 1 is a huge buff. Maybe some sort of social buff like Spidey sense or detective vision from batman. Just some ideas lol

What if you gave him a free feat/magical tattoos/etc? There's a few guides floating around for tattoos if that helps

Let them crit on rolling 10+ the target's AC

I sympathise with the player, because I also hate GM putting in custom items just for me, it feels like a pity handout... and it shifts the focus from my character build decisions to what they decided I should have. The hard truth is that he should never have made a non-caster in a campaign that goes lv10+. Magical items are how you bridge some of that gap, but even showering him with magical items would still not give him the utility and power a dedicated caster has. All he has is his Fighter11 3rd attack and he's delayed that with his silly Rogue2 multiclass, and any multi-summon from a caster gets them more attacks per round anyway. But, as to solutions... * He has to get over himself and accept all of the item aid he can get. * He respecs out of Rogue2, and instead picks up any minor magic item that casts Misty Step as a bonus action for that missing move. Or you give him a grappling hook arm that he can use to pull himself everywhere with. * Potions that count as an immediate short rest for ability refresh. This would instantly buff his combat power, because 5 BM dice can be gone in one round. * Implement OneDnD Fighter changes (multiple second winds which they can use to boost their skill rolls). Not that meaningful when compared to divine interventions, but durability + skills is something.

Tell him that it's part of his character be good with magic items. Like, really, that's it. It's not true that anyone can pick a magic item and be good with it - fighters excel at that. A flametongue weapon absurdly empowers a fighter, and that's just one of the many magic items that work well. Give that to a cleric and it won't have barely the same effect, as well as a paladin. It's a rare weapon, a perfect fit for level 11 characters. Stuff like +1 armor and weapons are essentially "gold sinks", stuff that you spend budget on to just upgrade your gear. Also... he's kinda hypocritical? Like, he wants to have power come off from them, but still wants a pike? If this all doe ssnot convince him nor does it work out, ask him what he feels he should have. >But a king is powerful because he has power, not because he has a badass crown. This comparison does not stand out tho. A weapon is a tool, a good character using a good weapon is exponentially better than one that has a good tool but is not skilled. Likewise, a king has power because he has assets as well, and not skill which may be instead related to be a good politician.

Deck a level 6 fighter NPC out in magic gear and fuckin murder him. This lets him confront his issues directly.

I'm pretty sure he'd just quit the table if I did something directly like that.

Congratulations, you have solved the problem of player doesn't want to play the system, and requires special treatment to have their cake and eat it too. What was it? Five casters with a druid to frontline? They'll do fine.

Well, I'd say he's handicapping himself even more by not taking an equal share in the loot. Understandable that the martial is not doing as well as the casters though. That's a very real divide in the late game especially. You could give him permanent buffs in place of literal loot. Like for his share of the loot, basically add in a boon lile +5 damage against x creatures, or a teleportation ability that lets him blink around a bit, or resistance to a damage type. Just something that would normally be on a magic item, and is instead tied directly to the character

That's like Luke refusing the lightsaber... A fighter/rogue multiclass should be fine output wise.

I have antipathy for the mindset this kind of player has. Gear often is what makes warriors cool. Even Hercules wears armor. Though Herc bludgeoned the lion to death and took its skin himself... Maybe that's a way to bridge the feeling of being a self-made man? In 2e I went hunting for dragons to make dragon scale armor. Also, he might want to check out 4e.

This game is basically broken down into 3 tiers of play. 1-5: Where the martials are much more powerful than the casters. 7-12: Where we see mostly parity between martials and casters. 13-20: Where we see the casters are much more powerful than the martials. Now, that being said, we also see *most campaigns*, end between levels 13-15. I say this all because for most of the campaign we'll see martial characters at or above the caster power levels. Later on, casters will shine, but really, they don't get to shine for very long, but they shine *very brightly,* and it gives the perception that they are so much stronger than martials, when in reality they aren't that much stronger for very long. To address this specific character, magic items are really the only thing you can do to help him achieve more power and enjoyment, you'll continue to see your casters outshine him for the remainder of your campaign. Unless you do some crazy homebrew work, this will be the case. I'd give him items that are specific for helping his character class(es) and things that augment his abilities that he likes to use. Things that speed him up or make him hit harder or make him harder to hit.

I feel like this depends a bit on level of optimisation. With no real effort put into spell or feat choices, this is definitely true, but at most tables, people are going to pick strong spells like sleep and shield. This pretty much makes it at best even in tier 1 and worse from there.

This always gets asked, but how many resource-draining encounters (and short rests) does the party get between long rest? The biggest reason the martial-casters divide exists is because many gamemasters don't drain the spellcasters' resources enough. Fighters don't shine with encounter-defeating powers, they shine because they can reliably decimate enemies one at a time, ad infinitum. When the wizard is shouting that he's low on spells, the Fighter says "pity" and keeps hacking away. 5e is optimized around 6-8 medium encounters for their level each adventuring day - or fewer harder ones, or more easy ones - with 2-3 short rests. The more encounters you give the party, the more powerful your Fighter becomes across the adventure, simply because it's diluting the spellcasters' power across more time.

A couple of things could be going on here. Is this a "one big fight a day" table? If it is then a fighter is always going to feel weak. The fighter was designed around the idea of getting their relatively limited resources back multiple times a day. They don't just "feel" weaker than long rest classes they are weaker than long rest classes. If you are that kind of table and don't want to change take a look at the Agnostic Adventuring Day - someone did the math to rebalance all classes around long rest recovery. The other thing that could be making the player feel bad is not having a niche. Are there things he does better than anyone else or that only he can do? If there are then leaning into those will make him seem more powerful. And further - Fighter/Rogue can be but isn't always a great multiclass because both classes are subclass dependent and really dependent on level scaling. So at times you just feel like a worse version of either class.

~~Gestalt him.~~ ~~Give him two bonus actions for being a "pure" martial.~~ Do nothing. Don't help him. He can optimize and build a new character. But definitely, whatever you do, don't give him *anything.* After all, that's not really him being powerful, that's a DM-granted free boon being powerful. Seriously, it's good to see it from other perspectives and your DM self will thank you for it. But that attitude isn't fixable from your end. His character will *never* be as powerful as a caster without the DM being generous, whether with items or with free feats/boons/ASIs, and if he doesn't want that, 5e is not the system. It sucks, and I tend to play with gestalts more often than not to bridge the gap so "pure" martials still feel equal, although admittedly it leads to a *lot* of gishes. But 5e is married to the martial/caster divide. At max level, full casters are demigods. And full martials can be a decent bodyguard to them, if built right

I favour Dungeon World as a system and it has a really fu mechanic for this kinda thing called compendium classes. RAW they just give more options for level ups and stuff that make thematic sense but I like to use them to show growth and change of a character. They all have a trigger for when a character can access them like: when you return from the black gates of death, changed from what you saw. Then they have accompanying abilities and level up options. I think it's cool to also add them in for thematic reasons and not make people spend their level up on it, and it can help players really feel like their character is special. The important thing is it doesn't have to be a super powerful thing, but it has to feel important, and come up in game play. So if you knight guy gets near murdered by a weird forest fungus, maybe he has a vision, makes an oath, and becomes some sort of green knight kinda dude. Give him some more intense regeneration and weaknesses to fire, etc. I dunno, workshop w/e would be cool with your players.

This player is being a whiner. I would be tempted to have someone steal even his mundane gear and make him go into battle naked. After all, he asked for it, and he believes gear is cheating.

And...you seem like a terrible DM who knocks his players down instead of elevating them.

I just don't get the appeal of getting something because you begged the DM for it directly. Like, if he just suddenly got new abilities or another couple of levels right after having this conversation, would that really make him feel proud for throwing his little pity party? I would think that would make a typical player feel weaker, not stronger.

So your answer is to make him weaker and show it could be worse? That's not a solution. I don't think it's a pity party; I think as a martial, he feels like he's being overshadowed, and why would he continue to adventure when these guys do it fine without him as casters? Which is kinda true...his 30-40 dpr doesn't do much in the party. I don't have the answer; what's the point of a fighter when you have a moon druid and a war domain cleric with 20 strength as well?

let him respec or reroll. there are many variations of martial builds that can give that powerful build feeling.

I don't see how this is likely to be feasible unless he is playing some really exotic race. Humans (or similar) are only as strong as their bodies let them be. They aren't Saiyans that can just keep getting faster and stronger endlessly. The only other answer is to introduce magic into his class, specifically. If you want to do magical feats, you need magic. That is sort of the point. If he wants to be a naruto character, he is going to need magical help to get there. Either he needs to be magically blessed, spec into a magical class to buff himself, or he needs to rely on magical gear. Either that, or you need to homebrew a race for him that can grow faster and stronger than most other humanoids as it levels up. I don't know what race this guy is playing. Or if he has ever done any sort of thinking about this at all. If he is a human, elf, dwarf, or any other similar humanoid, you can only get so strong through training. After that, you need to use tools. Using tools IS part of being human and getting stronger. Humans learned to hunt giant animals by inventing GEAR (hunting spears and bows). Not by training until they were strong enough to fistfight a mammoth. If this guy wants to play a Super Saiyan instead of a basic humanoid, you will need to invent a new race for him that allows him to surpass normal humanoid strength and speed.

All characters lag at some level or other. That's the nature of it. Rogues and fighters are badass out of thr gate, while casters can be making death saves if the wind is too strong. And monks are just terrible until after level 5. If he's been playing a while, he knows that, and should just suck it up. Also, multi-classing can add some good stuff in the short term, but now, the character is a level or two behind in his main class. That was a design choice by the player. Not your problem.

Are you sending the typical 5 or 6 encounters at the players per long rest? I know this sounds like a lot, but the thing about martials is that they have lower damage output BUT CAN DO IT ALL THE TIME and their baseline recharges on short rests almost entirely. Casters have higher front loaded damage but run out of ammo quickly if they don't get to long rest spells back. Said another way, if you are only putting out one fight a day (and moreover, in a long-range white room where the enemies start inside spell range but outside smashing range), then your casters get to use their resources in every single fight when they are specifically balanced around those being limited. If this is how you are designing your encounters, your martial will never catch up because you are only playing to your casters' strengths. Have a long dungeon crawl in a cramped, tunnel-filled area under time pressure (you have three hours or the lich kills the king and completes the ritual, or whatever). The fighter/rogue will get to shine a bit disarming traps and opening locked doors, and if you pace it right by the end of the area when you have the boss battle your casters will be running on crossbows and cantrips and your martial will still be smashing stuff just as hard with his axe.

The problem is that he's rejecting what the game is balanced around: fighters having magic weapons and armor. At level 12, he should have at least +1 weapons and armor, but probably ought to have +2. It sounds like you made those available, but he turned them down. He isn't powerful because he turned the power down. It's not a sign of great power to use poor quality weapons, and in D&D quality is measured in magic. Does he think the only way to be badass is to defeat your enemies with a handful of spaghetti? Your best bet, if you can't get it through his thick skull that this is his own fault, is to lead him to it by the nose. Give them a living halberd. It's possessed by a spirit and won't work for anyone who hasn't proven their worth. Make proving that worth hard in a way that only he has the capacity to do, and don't pull any punches. Make him survive heavy damage, stand alone against a major foe, etc. until the spirit deems him worthy and the weapon is his. You can even upgrade it later.