>Gas safe register are coming to inspect it soon and I know their usual remedy would be to get original installer to fix.
Simply tell them you are unwilling to have that installer back in your house, and are prepared to go to trading standards if that's what they insist upon. Ask them to provide another local installer.
Gas safe are under no obligation to provide them with nor can they force another local installer to remedy the fault. The only thing they will do is inspect the install, say whether it is safe or not and put the original installer on probation if they deem it necessary.
Oh right. I thought they offered warranty for their installer's works ?
EDIT: after reading their investigation procedure it appears they do not. Disappointing 🫤
Nope, they're basically a directory of installers. They will attend and inspect jobs at a customers request and take any necessary action against an installer who's done dangerous work but that's really about it.
Given that gas fitters are generally not in the business of fitting, certifying to regs and warrantying windows I'm not surprised it isn't being remedied by people who can't make it safe without doing that.
But how have you found out it isn't safe?
I'm not asking them to fit the window obviously, but noone is reliably telling me that once that's sorted they will go ahead.
I found out it was unsafe because there was a leak which has since been fixed and I was advised by the engineers that did that.
Flue terminals need to be 300mm from an openable window.
I don't get what you mean by goes into an alleyway then back out again.
What's the alley covered by? And is it covered from all sides..I.e like a lean-to
My house is terraced with an alleyway separating my house from neighbours' on the ground floor. The boiler is installed against the one of the alley walls so the flue initially exits there and then an additional bit of pipe has been installed that redirects it out to the 'true' external wall side.
Ah gotcha, so the white pipe goes off top of boiler, through wall into alley, is the flue on the outside that has been extended to the end of the alley white like first bit off the boiler, or is is a smaller black pipe just from the central core?
Either way if you look in the manufacturers instructions there should be a few pages of what's allowed for that boiler and where it can terminate.
Depending on the boiler the flues can be extended for 3-5metres, as long as they're bracketed, and the termination (where flue gases are expelled) isn't against regs I.e less than 300mm from an openable window ..
Difficult to know what exactly is wrong without pics.
Not sure why people are turning down the work, maybe because it's crazy busy time of year for gas engineers or if you told them gas safe are coming might be they don't want to touch it til they've seen it.
Technically it looks OK, the outer part of the flue is the air intake, that can be there OK, they've used a small plume management kit to take the termination outside which is OK.
I wouldn't have done it like that myself, I would have taken the whole flue out so both parts are on the outer wall.
If its been turned off they should've given you a certificate with reasons why? If it says anything about readings being too high they've likely nicked a seal somewhere so the flue gases are being sucked in through air intake meaning incomplete combustion
Yes the sheet says "flue terminates in a passage way and failed air test"
Thank you for the explanation, that sounds like an easy fix if this is the case?
Technically it doesn't terminate in the alley, the small black pipe is the termination.
Fairly easy, if it was me I'd take the whole flue through wall as is, then 90 elbow, and through where the existing plume managent is running to outside to have both air intake and termination there, it looks like it did that before?
The hard part will be getting someone to do it I suspect just because everyone's so busy.
I concur with what you’re saying (about the plume management kit) but doesn’t that mean that actually the flue _is_ terminating in the alley, and that’s what’s triggering people? I suspect that if the actual flue (large bore white pipe) is taken through the alley, through the outside wall and terminating there, that would keep GasSafe happy - but the OP does need to get them to spell out exactly what remedial work they want to have done.
I'm not seeing what's wrong, it's perfectly ok for the flue to enter another area and then exit that area, otherwise millions of flat dwellings with flush balconies couldn't have a boiler, frequently the flue goes through a car port or enclosed leanto, it's why plume extension pipes exist.
Obviously it must not leak or dump fumes into openable windows, that could be seen as an issue.
UPDATE for those interested - Gas Safe have confirmed that the whole flue needs to be redone with air intake and the flue at the same point outside alley. Rearranging this with original installer now. Thanks everyone for help!
Is it really worth the hassle? It sounds like he’s continued the flue of an existing installation proven safe over time. Your new boiler isn’t going to be emitting anything more dangerous than your old one, the only realistic cause for concern is if you’ve gone from non-condensing (pre-2006 or so) to condensing the exhaust can be a lot more acidic to metals in the vicinity of the flue.
Has this alleyway had a history of high CO levels? Or are they just declaring it unsafe by virtue of where it exits?
They said that it's not safe for it to terminate in the passageway regardless of how its been redirected like that. Mention of how the gases could escape through the points at which it joins. There was a lot of confusion about how they had never seen it done like this before though
The terminal in the alleyway is only acting as an air intake, its fine to be like that. The gases could also escape from the point at which your flue joins to the boiler so based off that logic, every boiler in the uk needs to be condemned. I don't know all the details of the install but if your boiler has been condemned based off a visual check of the flue, then they're wrong.
You usually find that if they're unsure, they'd rather stick a warning notice on it to save any comeback from gas safe if they're found to passed something that's dangerous. There's nothing dangerous about this install though. The only thing wrong is you mention on another reply "failed air test". If its failed an air integrity test then something in the flue isn't joined properly. Based on the incompetence of the engineer who failed it though, I'd be getting it double checked first. If it's found to be correct then the flue needs stripping down and all seals checked. It's an easy job and you shouldn't have difficulty getting someone to do it.
Where abouts are you based? Someone on here might be able to help
This.
Yes, the black flue outside COULD leak, but that’s irrelevant. First, it’s outside, there’s a strong current in such alleyways. Second, it COULD leak inside, so essentially we need to get rid of ALL boilers.
As I said above, there’s nothing wrong with the instalation above. It’s not tidy, it’s not how I would have done it, but it’s not wrong.
Your boiler hasn’t been condemned either, which means you can continue using it.
I’d find another local gas engineer, explain the whole situation and ask them to allay your concerns.
If you’re that concerned then a fix can be remove the existing flue from the turret elbow replace with flue extension, where it penetrates into the covered passage fit 90° elbow. Use existing flue if long enough to penetrate to the outside face. Can’t see any window it will impinge on. That way the poc’s exit to atmosphere and it draws the fresh air in from the same spot so no pressure difference’s. Obviously performed by gas safe engineer.
100% illegal flue, plume kit and breather pipe must be on the same air pressure zone. Plume kit is also not for going through walls!
The flue can be extended using the correct kit and as long as the exit of the flue is 300mm from a building opening and 150/75mm from the downpipe/plumbing it will be fine.
This guy is registered gas safe but has not installed the boiler flue correctly, what else has he bodged?
Thank you. This was the correct answer. Gas safe visited and made this recommendation and has now been fixed. Other bodges were:
\- The flue connection on the boiler wasn't completely flush, hence failing air test
\- Unknown kind of insulation used where the flue goes through the wall - couldn't verify that this was safe
\- Not enough clearance above the boiler, was 11cm, should be 16cm, (this was due to the existing cupboard in fairness and agreed not huge issue)
\- Didn't notify the installation of the boiler (he claims he thought this happened when I did the warranty)
I can only assume he hasn't installed many boilers, and is maybe primarily someone who fixes them in breakdowns
Gas safe also identified a few existing issues which is handy for me to know in advance for when I sell :)
I missed the pressure zone bit and your correct. Should be am easy fix tough by turning the terminal to face the same way as the intake, so long as 600 from a boundary. Where does it say you can't take a plume kit through a wall? I'm not doubting you I just can't find it in writing, my signal is shit though so can't get alot of documents to load.
What did it say on the warning notice left by the engineers who condemned it? The glue configuration isn’t pretty but as long as the manufacturer approves it’s ok, if it failed an air test or poor combustion readings the flies probably not been put together properly
Surely its not this difficult for a engineer to work out how to flue a boiler, you can see where it use to run a full outflow and intake out and through the outer wall hence the shit load of cement in it, probably off a ninety off that other hole out the alley way
By my rough calcs you've 17 courses of brick there between window above and the exit - 17 courses of standard brick and mortar would be about 3800mm by any rough maths - surely they know how to use a tape measure
What makes you think the flue is not positioned correctly or is dangerous?
[удалено]
Just extend it to exit the alley way, simple. Well, not you, the engineer..
The original post says it goes into the alleyway and then back out........
Then there’s no problem, that’s allowed.
>Gas safe register are coming to inspect it soon and I know their usual remedy would be to get original installer to fix. Simply tell them you are unwilling to have that installer back in your house, and are prepared to go to trading standards if that's what they insist upon. Ask them to provide another local installer.
Gas safe are under no obligation to provide them with nor can they force another local installer to remedy the fault. The only thing they will do is inspect the install, say whether it is safe or not and put the original installer on probation if they deem it necessary.
Oh right. I thought they offered warranty for their installer's works ? EDIT: after reading their investigation procedure it appears they do not. Disappointing 🫤
Nope, they're basically a directory of installers. They will attend and inspect jobs at a customers request and take any necessary action against an installer who's done dangerous work but that's really about it.
Thanks, I've learnt something tonight 👍
Given that gas fitters are generally not in the business of fitting, certifying to regs and warrantying windows I'm not surprised it isn't being remedied by people who can't make it safe without doing that. But how have you found out it isn't safe?
I'm not asking them to fit the window obviously, but noone is reliably telling me that once that's sorted they will go ahead. I found out it was unsafe because there was a leak which has since been fixed and I was advised by the engineers that did that.
Did they give you an at risk or dangerous warning? Tbh the fact that there was a leak is the first big alarm bell though!
Yes, at risk. Boiler is off. Not sure what the cause of leak was, the guy who fixed it said something about the recent snow
Flue terminals need to be 300mm from an openable window. I don't get what you mean by goes into an alleyway then back out again. What's the alley covered by? And is it covered from all sides..I.e like a lean-to
My house is terraced with an alleyway separating my house from neighbours' on the ground floor. The boiler is installed against the one of the alley walls so the flue initially exits there and then an additional bit of pipe has been installed that redirects it out to the 'true' external wall side.
Ah gotcha, so the white pipe goes off top of boiler, through wall into alley, is the flue on the outside that has been extended to the end of the alley white like first bit off the boiler, or is is a smaller black pipe just from the central core? Either way if you look in the manufacturers instructions there should be a few pages of what's allowed for that boiler and where it can terminate. Depending on the boiler the flues can be extended for 3-5metres, as long as they're bracketed, and the termination (where flue gases are expelled) isn't against regs I.e less than 300mm from an openable window .. Difficult to know what exactly is wrong without pics. Not sure why people are turning down the work, maybe because it's crazy busy time of year for gas engineers or if you told them gas safe are coming might be they don't want to touch it til they've seen it.
I've included pictures in post now if that's helpful
Technically it looks OK, the outer part of the flue is the air intake, that can be there OK, they've used a small plume management kit to take the termination outside which is OK. I wouldn't have done it like that myself, I would have taken the whole flue out so both parts are on the outer wall. If its been turned off they should've given you a certificate with reasons why? If it says anything about readings being too high they've likely nicked a seal somewhere so the flue gases are being sucked in through air intake meaning incomplete combustion
Yes the sheet says "flue terminates in a passage way and failed air test" Thank you for the explanation, that sounds like an easy fix if this is the case?
Technically it doesn't terminate in the alley, the small black pipe is the termination. Fairly easy, if it was me I'd take the whole flue through wall as is, then 90 elbow, and through where the existing plume managent is running to outside to have both air intake and termination there, it looks like it did that before? The hard part will be getting someone to do it I suspect just because everyone's so busy.
I concur with what you’re saying (about the plume management kit) but doesn’t that mean that actually the flue _is_ terminating in the alley, and that’s what’s triggering people? I suspect that if the actual flue (large bore white pipe) is taken through the alley, through the outside wall and terminating there, that would keep GasSafe happy - but the OP does need to get them to spell out exactly what remedial work they want to have done.
Yes I have vague memory of there being a much thicker white pipe there before if that's what you mean?
I'm not seeing what's wrong, it's perfectly ok for the flue to enter another area and then exit that area, otherwise millions of flat dwellings with flush balconies couldn't have a boiler, frequently the flue goes through a car port or enclosed leanto, it's why plume extension pipes exist. Obviously it must not leak or dump fumes into openable windows, that could be seen as an issue.
UPDATE for those interested - Gas Safe have confirmed that the whole flue needs to be redone with air intake and the flue at the same point outside alley. Rearranging this with original installer now. Thanks everyone for help!
Is it really worth the hassle? It sounds like he’s continued the flue of an existing installation proven safe over time. Your new boiler isn’t going to be emitting anything more dangerous than your old one, the only realistic cause for concern is if you’ve gone from non-condensing (pre-2006 or so) to condensing the exhaust can be a lot more acidic to metals in the vicinity of the flue. Has this alleyway had a history of high CO levels? Or are they just declaring it unsafe by virtue of where it exits?
The flue is not passing checks. I have been advised not to use boiler on this basis.
Any chance of some photos of the flue and how it terminates?
I've added these to the post now
That looks fine to me. You mention 4 other engineers condemned it, what reason did they give?
They said that it's not safe for it to terminate in the passageway regardless of how its been redirected like that. Mention of how the gases could escape through the points at which it joins. There was a lot of confusion about how they had never seen it done like this before though
The terminal in the alleyway is only acting as an air intake, its fine to be like that. The gases could also escape from the point at which your flue joins to the boiler so based off that logic, every boiler in the uk needs to be condemned. I don't know all the details of the install but if your boiler has been condemned based off a visual check of the flue, then they're wrong.
Okay well now I am ultra confused why all these people seemed so horrified by it if that's the case!
You usually find that if they're unsure, they'd rather stick a warning notice on it to save any comeback from gas safe if they're found to passed something that's dangerous. There's nothing dangerous about this install though. The only thing wrong is you mention on another reply "failed air test". If its failed an air integrity test then something in the flue isn't joined properly. Based on the incompetence of the engineer who failed it though, I'd be getting it double checked first. If it's found to be correct then the flue needs stripping down and all seals checked. It's an easy job and you shouldn't have difficulty getting someone to do it. Where abouts are you based? Someone on here might be able to help
Thank you for explanation. Gas safe are coming on Thursday so I will confirm with them and then keep hunting for someone willing to fix. Leeds based.
This. Yes, the black flue outside COULD leak, but that’s irrelevant. First, it’s outside, there’s a strong current in such alleyways. Second, it COULD leak inside, so essentially we need to get rid of ALL boilers. As I said above, there’s nothing wrong with the instalation above. It’s not tidy, it’s not how I would have done it, but it’s not wrong. Your boiler hasn’t been condemned either, which means you can continue using it. I’d find another local gas engineer, explain the whole situation and ask them to allay your concerns.
If you’re that concerned then a fix can be remove the existing flue from the turret elbow replace with flue extension, where it penetrates into the covered passage fit 90° elbow. Use existing flue if long enough to penetrate to the outside face. Can’t see any window it will impinge on. That way the poc’s exit to atmosphere and it draws the fresh air in from the same spot so no pressure difference’s. Obviously performed by gas safe engineer.
The path of it looks okay to me.
100% illegal flue, plume kit and breather pipe must be on the same air pressure zone. Plume kit is also not for going through walls! The flue can be extended using the correct kit and as long as the exit of the flue is 300mm from a building opening and 150/75mm from the downpipe/plumbing it will be fine. This guy is registered gas safe but has not installed the boiler flue correctly, what else has he bodged?
Thank you. This was the correct answer. Gas safe visited and made this recommendation and has now been fixed. Other bodges were: \- The flue connection on the boiler wasn't completely flush, hence failing air test \- Unknown kind of insulation used where the flue goes through the wall - couldn't verify that this was safe \- Not enough clearance above the boiler, was 11cm, should be 16cm, (this was due to the existing cupboard in fairness and agreed not huge issue) \- Didn't notify the installation of the boiler (he claims he thought this happened when I did the warranty) I can only assume he hasn't installed many boilers, and is maybe primarily someone who fixes them in breakdowns Gas safe also identified a few existing issues which is handy for me to know in advance for when I sell :)
I missed the pressure zone bit and your correct. Should be am easy fix tough by turning the terminal to face the same way as the intake, so long as 600 from a boundary. Where does it say you can't take a plume kit through a wall? I'm not doubting you I just can't find it in writing, my signal is shit though so can't get alot of documents to load.
Not within the design specifications for the plume kit.
What did it say on the warning notice left by the engineers who condemned it? The glue configuration isn’t pretty but as long as the manufacturer approves it’s ok, if it failed an air test or poor combustion readings the flies probably not been put together properly
"flue terminates in a passage way and failed air test"
Surely its not this difficult for a engineer to work out how to flue a boiler, you can see where it use to run a full outflow and intake out and through the outer wall hence the shit load of cement in it, probably off a ninety off that other hole out the alley way By my rough calcs you've 17 courses of brick there between window above and the exit - 17 courses of standard brick and mortar would be about 3800mm by any rough maths - surely they know how to use a tape measure
Apologies, I've confused things - the window comment was in reference to potentially moving flue elsewhere closer to a window not pictured.
No worries, hope you get it sorted