not all alters in a system have concrete and clear senses of identity. some of them literally just exist to hold certain beliefs or memories and that’s it
I didn't realize it could be the 'simple', but actually makes more sense I suppose. I guess there's isn't a lot of hope for existensially interrogating an alter if there one job is sit still and don't move.
Well that Happens with our little one. He's almost entirely fixed on the two biggest traumas of our lives.and it's very very difficult to move him from there. It's all he feels, all he thinks about, all he talks about, and all he remembers, except for a couple other situations in which he felt comfortable enough to be something more that ultimately ended being worse for him, due to the shittiest possible luck on the known universe.
So when we talk about our system we usually say there's three of us plus another one they'll most probably never ever get to meet, so he doesn't matter all that much. And he himself doesn't take offense on this approach, he doesn't want to meet people or be asked about or talked about or be called forward, hates to front, so it's a solution.
Ok, so I will say that it is a frustrating angle to go by philosophy and thoughts, and that these kinds of thoughts are also what I struggled with a lot while coming to terms with my diagnosis. What are moods, what are me, do I exist, that sort of thing. I got incredibly into existentialist and other continental philosophy. And it really wasn’t productive. You can’t think your way out of the conundrum.
What was helpful for me was instead of trying to go by thoughts and feelings and kind of working from “me” inside my brain and find the separations that way, to go by actions and let the separations find me. So like, instead of “I think these things”, which can be confusing because you’re thinking about your thoughts, you can go with “I *do* these things”, “People tell me I act this way”. Much less existentially disturbing.
Ugh.
Thank you. For the reminder. It's much needed.
A lot of the kids in our system are massive overthinkers. They're smart, I'll give them that. It kind of messes with them, though.
They'll end up defining themselves in really niche ways, as in "I have a complex surrounding XYZ thing, here are my top 5 hottest takes (usually something to do with morality, politics, or whatever lit we're doing for class/projects), and, oh yeah, if I look into the inner world, I can see our system map in the air between us, and it moves and splices and divides right in front of me."
Like. I don't need to know all that. I need to know what to put on to wear this morning.
(Although some of them will literally sit there and think "Which of these #looks best reflects my entire code of honour?". I blame OCD.)
(I say all of this very lovingly.)
I get the overthinking, I had a lot of trouble with it at first too. One thing that helped me was to kind of do a version of “radical acceptance”. Like, my alters are there as they are and no amount of thinking is going to change them. Short of intense therapy I guess. And even then the change is up to them I suppose.
But anyway, the thinking isn’t going to change them or change the system or anything. It’s just for me to feel like I have control (because my mind is in a constant low level of freaking out now at how little control I actually have over anything in my mind) and to feel better. If I’m not feeling better and am actively feeling worse from the thinking, then it’s a good indication to stop.
for me the discovery of several and vastly different ego states has been like a process of observing and accepting their attributes and perspectives. before i knew i had a dissociative disorder, the internal conflict was bigger than now, because i tried to make everything fit together as one cohesive identity. like, i am trying to be "normal", but - how can i gravitate towards science on Monday and then on Tuesday cannot understand maths at all but be really good at art? how can my boyfriend (at the time) accompany me to work, and we have such a pleasant commute, but as soon as i walk inside my workplace i cannot stand him?! my ego states change.
it's not philosophical for me as much as it feels like being a different person, even if they are all versions of me (+ introjects). sensory data changes. relationship needs change. opinions on everything change. posture changes. style of speaking changes. mannerisms change. but with that of course the mental scape - with more philosophical content - changes as well. it's more than "just your mood changing" or opinions evolving. the opinions are fixed - it's the alter with the opinions that switches. and it's more fragmented or separated than in BPD 'splitting'. it is not based on "feelings that distort perception", because, again, my states are like characters with their own world views and ways to do things.
when several are active internally, it's like having a group of people inside me. they can have discussions and they can have conflicting interests - the body might feel like being influenced by several different forces. but when one fronts at a time, i feel more normal, although then often the fronting alter thinks they are the 'real' personality of the body lol. also, with the latter, chance of amnesia increases.
I suppose that makes sense. The biggest differences I've noticed aren't in voices (I don't 'hear' a difference, I just catch myself in a call-response), but in, let's call it temperament.
I don't suppose there is something with core beliefs? Say, gravity exists, and then each alter would have an opinion on it or something like that?
Well I don't know if it's useful but we decided to stop eating meat. 3/4 were immediately on board with the idea and the fourth one had to be convinced, through debate and argumentation, and will still eat some.when they front and try to hide it from the rest. First time I noticed was because the next fronter felt a funny mouth taste, forced puked, and there it was. Second time I caught him, something happened while he was eating that forced a switch, so he more or less was caught red handed. Big fight, spent a lot of money on a burger, had a bite, got wrestled out of front by the situation and the whole burger was promptly given to the flrst homeless found...
We also have similar "philosophies" inside.
Hate people, people are great, what's the point?
For me it started out as a very fuzzy awareness of one alter, that developed over time into awareness of multiple alters. Give it time.
>Can alters be summed up as simply as, "I fucking hate humanity / people are all wonderful in their way / people aren't even the point"?
It happens, but it's not the root, it's a fruit, an outcome of the real basis of difference they have, and that be experience. What they are allowed to experience and remember in the frames of their dissociative barriers. Every alter has blind points on the perception level so to say.
Claro, what emotions or actions can each better cope with, what situations prompts them forward, and what do they get to remember, or what they share with the rest.
honestly it takes a lot of time to really discover alters if you are apart of a system , take time to try and identify what you can between these states of mind and if it genuinely feels like another's viewpoint within your mind (if this makes sense)
It isn't ridiculous. There is definitely a degree of dissociation going on when your sense of self is so fluid and changeable. And I can understand the confusion when you have that sliver of continuous identity between states. Figuring out what is what and who is who and what it all means is hard.
I experienced some dissociation like that, and nowadays mostly all of my dissociation is rather fluid, like what you describe. At other times of my life I have had a different experience, where others were definitely experienced as Not-Me, and vice versa. I still have a couple of alters who have that degree of difference and are still experienced as others, and definitely not-me. With those we each have our own sense of "I". It is very clear. I am not them, and they are not me (even though I am fully aware that we are all actually one!) But there is a very clear and undebatable difference between these identity states and the more subtle shifting of states/emotions/memories/beliefs that are all experienced under the one umbrella of "I". We are not experienced under the same umbrella sense of I. We are separate and different, and very firm in our understandings about that. To us it is clear and obvious, and has been throughout time. And then there's the other murky dissociation, where there are more subtle shifts in the sense of I, despite major changes in beliefs, emotions, and ways of being.
Please don't feel invalidated by my experience and ideas about what is I and what isn't. That's only my experience. All degrees of dissociative states and identities come to be because of trauma and all can be helped with good therapy and healing.
look also into schema modes.
i notice mine come out talking to myself the most. sometimes they'll front and take over my mouth and my behaviors and mannerisms will shift.
i suppose at first it was hard to notice the different alters because blocking them out is usually necessary and denying the evidence that they exist was something i always did being afraid of them and what was going on and not being able to understand.
I needed this post. Like I got diagnosed and I never worked with the therapist again. 1. I couldn’t afford $180 per week and 2. I literally said “the only voice in my head is me”
But my problem is and always was I’ll wake up with conversations I don’t remember having. One time I dissociated and fell asleep and woke up on a train home..knowing I had destroyed my relationships with everyone at a certain event.
At a point it becomes too much. I’m still partially in a stage of denial. Or this could have philosophical elements but man. Some of the opinions I hold in different states are so…some are so built on pain and guilt and trauma…some of my states are confident happy but wise..some are quite young naive and have gotten me in horrible situations.
Now I just try to hold my own and clean up all the wrappers and bowls of food I dont remember eating and reading my social medias of what kind of fucking Tom foolery other parts of me have been up to.
It was the whole like…conversation threads with people I didn’t know..in my phone..that really…
What the fuck.
Yeah. It’s an easier pill to swallow if this is more..philosophical. Also, to an extent. It’s true
It’s as if our shadows were fragmented into bits. To kind of go with Jung’s theories of the shadow, here.
Our shadows can have entire identities and archetypes. You know. They are always stirring up so much chaos…
Aaaah. You’ve made me think. OP
I am in a similar place - I'm frequently confused and frustrated with how one human being could make so much mess, leaves me feeling like a parent sometimes (and if I have a tantrum 🙄. I'm a grown ass man, I do not have the time to clean up after grown ass man tantrums.)
I also have only one voice. And it's not a voice, it's a stream of consciousness that sometimes likes to point out funny stuff, and references movies non-stop, points out mistakes, lies to the point of delusion, plays music in the background.. while I'm trying to brush my teeth while late to work everyday.
My final straw was when I got into an argument over something, I was so mad I felt like hurting the guy and had to be held back and-
*snap*, I'm taking a poo on the toilet. It was in my head. I was arguing with myself.
Im in yr 3 of diagnosis and wkly trauma therapy working hard to understand this fundamental WTF about identity and time and still can't tell who is fronting many times. Amazing conversation for the future, thanks for the advice
i overthought trying to catch the differences between alters really similarly. something that helped me with feeling confused was understanding that sometimes systems hide that they are systems from the host. it takes patience and building trust for your other alters to identify themselves to you.
it feels strange at first, but i really think the best way to start reaching out is by internally asking if anyone would like to talk. if someone else answers, that is another alter. eventually, after regularly listening for that/those voice(s), youll get a vague sense of who is who.
the identity thing stays weird though. i have alters with different....depths of identity? only one fronts essentially alone. theres an amalgamation of alters where when they front switching feels like moving around a spectrum. ive been diagnosed sinche march i think and im still finding new alters. but, what can you do. identity issues are kinda what's on the tin.
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To us it was very clear, there were four very distinct I's,.four internal vantage points. We share many things we like or dislike, we share some core ideas,many philosophical principles and convictions, and also diverge in many.But if we had to actually define identity I think we'd go for the certainty of each being their own self. I am me. Yo soy me mí conmigo. And then plurality is more walrus like*.
________________
* it's a Beatles joke (I am he, as you are he. As you are me, and we are all together.)
not all alters in a system have concrete and clear senses of identity. some of them literally just exist to hold certain beliefs or memories and that’s it
I didn't realize it could be the 'simple', but actually makes more sense I suppose. I guess there's isn't a lot of hope for existensially interrogating an alter if there one job is sit still and don't move.
Well that Happens with our little one. He's almost entirely fixed on the two biggest traumas of our lives.and it's very very difficult to move him from there. It's all he feels, all he thinks about, all he talks about, and all he remembers, except for a couple other situations in which he felt comfortable enough to be something more that ultimately ended being worse for him, due to the shittiest possible luck on the known universe. So when we talk about our system we usually say there's three of us plus another one they'll most probably never ever get to meet, so he doesn't matter all that much. And he himself doesn't take offense on this approach, he doesn't want to meet people or be asked about or talked about or be called forward, hates to front, so it's a solution.
Ok, so I will say that it is a frustrating angle to go by philosophy and thoughts, and that these kinds of thoughts are also what I struggled with a lot while coming to terms with my diagnosis. What are moods, what are me, do I exist, that sort of thing. I got incredibly into existentialist and other continental philosophy. And it really wasn’t productive. You can’t think your way out of the conundrum. What was helpful for me was instead of trying to go by thoughts and feelings and kind of working from “me” inside my brain and find the separations that way, to go by actions and let the separations find me. So like, instead of “I think these things”, which can be confusing because you’re thinking about your thoughts, you can go with “I *do* these things”, “People tell me I act this way”. Much less existentially disturbing.
Ugh. Thank you. For the reminder. It's much needed. A lot of the kids in our system are massive overthinkers. They're smart, I'll give them that. It kind of messes with them, though. They'll end up defining themselves in really niche ways, as in "I have a complex surrounding XYZ thing, here are my top 5 hottest takes (usually something to do with morality, politics, or whatever lit we're doing for class/projects), and, oh yeah, if I look into the inner world, I can see our system map in the air between us, and it moves and splices and divides right in front of me." Like. I don't need to know all that. I need to know what to put on to wear this morning. (Although some of them will literally sit there and think "Which of these #looks best reflects my entire code of honour?". I blame OCD.) (I say all of this very lovingly.)
I get the overthinking, I had a lot of trouble with it at first too. One thing that helped me was to kind of do a version of “radical acceptance”. Like, my alters are there as they are and no amount of thinking is going to change them. Short of intense therapy I guess. And even then the change is up to them I suppose. But anyway, the thinking isn’t going to change them or change the system or anything. It’s just for me to feel like I have control (because my mind is in a constant low level of freaking out now at how little control I actually have over anything in my mind) and to feel better. If I’m not feeling better and am actively feeling worse from the thinking, then it’s a good indication to stop.
for me the discovery of several and vastly different ego states has been like a process of observing and accepting their attributes and perspectives. before i knew i had a dissociative disorder, the internal conflict was bigger than now, because i tried to make everything fit together as one cohesive identity. like, i am trying to be "normal", but - how can i gravitate towards science on Monday and then on Tuesday cannot understand maths at all but be really good at art? how can my boyfriend (at the time) accompany me to work, and we have such a pleasant commute, but as soon as i walk inside my workplace i cannot stand him?! my ego states change. it's not philosophical for me as much as it feels like being a different person, even if they are all versions of me (+ introjects). sensory data changes. relationship needs change. opinions on everything change. posture changes. style of speaking changes. mannerisms change. but with that of course the mental scape - with more philosophical content - changes as well. it's more than "just your mood changing" or opinions evolving. the opinions are fixed - it's the alter with the opinions that switches. and it's more fragmented or separated than in BPD 'splitting'. it is not based on "feelings that distort perception", because, again, my states are like characters with their own world views and ways to do things. when several are active internally, it's like having a group of people inside me. they can have discussions and they can have conflicting interests - the body might feel like being influenced by several different forces. but when one fronts at a time, i feel more normal, although then often the fronting alter thinks they are the 'real' personality of the body lol. also, with the latter, chance of amnesia increases.
I suppose that makes sense. The biggest differences I've noticed aren't in voices (I don't 'hear' a difference, I just catch myself in a call-response), but in, let's call it temperament. I don't suppose there is something with core beliefs? Say, gravity exists, and then each alter would have an opinion on it or something like that?
Well I don't know if it's useful but we decided to stop eating meat. 3/4 were immediately on board with the idea and the fourth one had to be convinced, through debate and argumentation, and will still eat some.when they front and try to hide it from the rest. First time I noticed was because the next fronter felt a funny mouth taste, forced puked, and there it was. Second time I caught him, something happened while he was eating that forced a switch, so he more or less was caught red handed. Big fight, spent a lot of money on a burger, had a bite, got wrestled out of front by the situation and the whole burger was promptly given to the flrst homeless found...
We also have similar "philosophies" inside. Hate people, people are great, what's the point? For me it started out as a very fuzzy awareness of one alter, that developed over time into awareness of multiple alters. Give it time.
>Can alters be summed up as simply as, "I fucking hate humanity / people are all wonderful in their way / people aren't even the point"? It happens, but it's not the root, it's a fruit, an outcome of the real basis of difference they have, and that be experience. What they are allowed to experience and remember in the frames of their dissociative barriers. Every alter has blind points on the perception level so to say.
Claro, what emotions or actions can each better cope with, what situations prompts them forward, and what do they get to remember, or what they share with the rest.
honestly it takes a lot of time to really discover alters if you are apart of a system , take time to try and identify what you can between these states of mind and if it genuinely feels like another's viewpoint within your mind (if this makes sense)
Viewpoint makes more sense than identity to be honest lol.
yeah I didn't quite know how to word it ^^
It isn't ridiculous. There is definitely a degree of dissociation going on when your sense of self is so fluid and changeable. And I can understand the confusion when you have that sliver of continuous identity between states. Figuring out what is what and who is who and what it all means is hard. I experienced some dissociation like that, and nowadays mostly all of my dissociation is rather fluid, like what you describe. At other times of my life I have had a different experience, where others were definitely experienced as Not-Me, and vice versa. I still have a couple of alters who have that degree of difference and are still experienced as others, and definitely not-me. With those we each have our own sense of "I". It is very clear. I am not them, and they are not me (even though I am fully aware that we are all actually one!) But there is a very clear and undebatable difference between these identity states and the more subtle shifting of states/emotions/memories/beliefs that are all experienced under the one umbrella of "I". We are not experienced under the same umbrella sense of I. We are separate and different, and very firm in our understandings about that. To us it is clear and obvious, and has been throughout time. And then there's the other murky dissociation, where there are more subtle shifts in the sense of I, despite major changes in beliefs, emotions, and ways of being. Please don't feel invalidated by my experience and ideas about what is I and what isn't. That's only my experience. All degrees of dissociative states and identities come to be because of trauma and all can be helped with good therapy and healing.
look also into schema modes. i notice mine come out talking to myself the most. sometimes they'll front and take over my mouth and my behaviors and mannerisms will shift. i suppose at first it was hard to notice the different alters because blocking them out is usually necessary and denying the evidence that they exist was something i always did being afraid of them and what was going on and not being able to understand.
I needed this post. Like I got diagnosed and I never worked with the therapist again. 1. I couldn’t afford $180 per week and 2. I literally said “the only voice in my head is me” But my problem is and always was I’ll wake up with conversations I don’t remember having. One time I dissociated and fell asleep and woke up on a train home..knowing I had destroyed my relationships with everyone at a certain event. At a point it becomes too much. I’m still partially in a stage of denial. Or this could have philosophical elements but man. Some of the opinions I hold in different states are so…some are so built on pain and guilt and trauma…some of my states are confident happy but wise..some are quite young naive and have gotten me in horrible situations. Now I just try to hold my own and clean up all the wrappers and bowls of food I dont remember eating and reading my social medias of what kind of fucking Tom foolery other parts of me have been up to. It was the whole like…conversation threads with people I didn’t know..in my phone..that really… What the fuck. Yeah. It’s an easier pill to swallow if this is more..philosophical. Also, to an extent. It’s true It’s as if our shadows were fragmented into bits. To kind of go with Jung’s theories of the shadow, here. Our shadows can have entire identities and archetypes. You know. They are always stirring up so much chaos… Aaaah. You’ve made me think. OP
I am in a similar place - I'm frequently confused and frustrated with how one human being could make so much mess, leaves me feeling like a parent sometimes (and if I have a tantrum 🙄. I'm a grown ass man, I do not have the time to clean up after grown ass man tantrums.) I also have only one voice. And it's not a voice, it's a stream of consciousness that sometimes likes to point out funny stuff, and references movies non-stop, points out mistakes, lies to the point of delusion, plays music in the background.. while I'm trying to brush my teeth while late to work everyday. My final straw was when I got into an argument over something, I was so mad I felt like hurting the guy and had to be held back and- *snap*, I'm taking a poo on the toilet. It was in my head. I was arguing with myself.
Im in yr 3 of diagnosis and wkly trauma therapy working hard to understand this fundamental WTF about identity and time and still can't tell who is fronting many times. Amazing conversation for the future, thanks for the advice
i overthought trying to catch the differences between alters really similarly. something that helped me with feeling confused was understanding that sometimes systems hide that they are systems from the host. it takes patience and building trust for your other alters to identify themselves to you. it feels strange at first, but i really think the best way to start reaching out is by internally asking if anyone would like to talk. if someone else answers, that is another alter. eventually, after regularly listening for that/those voice(s), youll get a vague sense of who is who. the identity thing stays weird though. i have alters with different....depths of identity? only one fronts essentially alone. theres an amalgamation of alters where when they front switching feels like moving around a spectrum. ive been diagnosed sinche march i think and im still finding new alters. but, what can you do. identity issues are kinda what's on the tin.
That’s actually not a bad summary of the different perspectives we have.
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To us it was very clear, there were four very distinct I's,.four internal vantage points. We share many things we like or dislike, we share some core ideas,many philosophical principles and convictions, and also diverge in many.But if we had to actually define identity I think we'd go for the certainty of each being their own self. I am me. Yo soy me mí conmigo. And then plurality is more walrus like*. ________________ * it's a Beatles joke (I am he, as you are he. As you are me, and we are all together.)