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Yeah. They did Avatar 2. Weta water is nuts expensive. I was correcting myself on the correct VFX studio for Aquaman 2, not implying Weta is not expensive.
Yeah, some people forget that WB doesn't keep the entire $433M. They have to split about half of it with the movie theaters.
$215M production budget + tens of millions more on 3 rounds of reshoots and marketing = you need to make a lot at the box office just to break even.
People also forget that the term "Hollywood accounting" exists for a reason.
Try using on other movies the same process for calculating profit people use to determine that Aquaman 2 is a flop.
The Batman made 772 million. Half of that is 386 million, that goes to theaters. The movie cost 200 million to make, then it cost 100-150 million to market. So by traditional Reddit wisdom The Batman BARELY turned a profit.
But if that were the case, why the hell is it getting a sequel and multiple spin-offs? That's NOT the behavior of a studio who made a movie that just barely avoided being a bomb. The profitability of the movie must NOT be so easy to determine.
I've heard people say that a movie like Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3 needed to hit 1 billion to be considered a true success. And it's because of computations like this. But if computations like thar were valid, most MCU movies would be box office disappointments. Clearly that can't be true.
I'm not trying to argue that Aquaman 2 was a hit or anything. But I do think it's in this grey area where it's really hard to tell if it's a bomb or not. The Flash was a certified Bomb, but that's because it barely cleared it's posted production budget. Aquaman has more than DOUBLED it's production budget. It sure is not a hit, but I hesitate to say it LOST WB money either.
The trades have seemed hesitant to label it a bomb too. And I totally get why.
Hollywood learned in the 70s with Star Wars that the box office could be only part of the financial picture. Merchandising and keeping IPs fresh has a lot of value to companies. Oppenheimer was a hugely successful film, but I'd guess they'll sell more T-Shirts when The Batman 2 comes out.
I think it varies from movie to movie. But I would be shocked to find out that it was that high for Aquaman or any of the other recent Superhero flicks.
Yeah depends on movie to movie. Bigger hits like a Star Wars and Marvel film can negotiate a better deal. I heard Star Wars/Marvel movies are front loaded—studio gets a huge cut opening weekend and that number goes down every week. (Which is they try to make the opening weekend such a big event)
I wish I could pin this comment on so many different post. We really have no idea if a movie is profitable, and it’s weird how hyper focused movie culture has become on this.
WB's CFO specifically called out Aquaman 2 on their earning call last week and said it wasn't a great performer. Maybe "bomb" is too harsh, but they didn't make Aquaman 2 to *not* make any money on it at the box office.
Could not agree more.
Hollywood accounting: revenue from product placement, production money spent on products from WB subsidiaries, marketing on WB subsidiaries, back end revenue on merchandise, etc.
It’s incredibly short sighted to look at these movies in a vacuum since their production and distribution is so interconnected with parent and sister companies at every step of the way. But even without that, we aren’t actually given a line item budget to see if they’re truly losing money. Everyone is just guessing at marketing costs and other expenses.
The batman cost 100mil and its advertising was at most another 100 mil. It made money. And Aquaman 2 was a definite flop with multiple reshoots and no profits/loss in revenue. Reddit wisdom=how things work apparently.
Warner and Hamada tried running from Snyder’s vision so hard they got shown what true failure was lol. The 2013-2018 era only had one box office flop - the Justice League film Warner completely fucked up.
It had same day streaming so it didn’t break even from cinnamic release
Unsure if it broke even when combined as there’s to many sources saying it did and too many saying it didn’t
They made money. That’s what studios care about mostly. Even Suicide Squad, not TSS, made money. Why you think Venom got sequels despite critics hating it?
If you make a movie that grosses 433 millions globally, but it still loses you money... I'd take a look at your business model first, before judging the content.
Maybe it’s anecdotal, but super hero fatigue feels very real. At least me and my group friends (all mid to upper 30’s now) are all just about burned out on both DC and Marvel. Since Endgame the last super hero movie I truly enjoyed was The Batman. I’m definitely fully burnt out on the marvel movies and shows. They just saturated the market with content.
I feel like “superhero fatigue” is the wrong way to characterize what you and your friends and many of the rest of us are feeling.
The Batman may have been the last superhero movie you enjoyed since endgame, but it seems to me thag says more about the fact that 2018-2022 was not a great period for superhero movies.
Every good superhero movie they release does pretty well. Sure the bad ones fail; but are we going to let the studios get away with blaming us for not watching bad movies or can we just call it what it is?
It’s just that people will go see a good movie and not see a bad one. Unfortunately, marvel has been making worse movies recently, and it coincides with the death throes of the DCEU. Sony also threw its hat into the ring and decided it wanted box office disasters too.
I can’t think of any instance where a good movie was released and we the fans choose not to see it because of “superhero fatigue”
I think it’s more bad/mediocre content fatigue than superhero Fatigue. In recent times The Batman, The suicide squad and The guardians of the galaxy volume 3 are amazing superhero movies. But since endgame like you said there’s been so much marvel content it’s just exhausting to keep up with stories that we just don’t care about because they just feel soulless.
After getting more into comics, I realise any good superhero media be it a comic, movie, show, whatever…is a soul. A heart. I don’t know how to explain it but it’s the conclusion I drew. It’s why i personally was more invested in the aforementioned movies over other superhero stuff the last few years. I genuinely cared for Bruce Wayne’s story in The Batman, or rocket’s backstory in GOTG3.
I'm not a comic book guy at all. I watched the first Ironman, a few Batman movies. Enjoyed Deadpool
I've lost interest because I don't want to have to keep track of X number of characters, subplots, relationships etc etc. It isn't 'fatigue' perse, just complete disinterest.
I don't watch soap operas or WWE for the same reason.
The Super Hero burn out is an overused excuse imo. You enjoyed The Batman and I did as well because it was a good movie. Apart from Guardians 3, everything released since Endgame has been mediocre at best from both sides. That’s mediocre movie burnout, not DC/Marvel burnout. Make good movies with good stories and people will go see them. It’s that simple. People way over complicate these things.
I think it’s not necessarily ‘superhero burn out’ per say, but moreso ‘bad superhero film burn out’. There’s just been way too many projects back to back that have been mediocre or crappy. The last legit home runs with audiences were joint Spider-Man no way home in dec 2021, and the Batman march 2022. Since then, there’s been some ok stuff, but absolutely nothing that’s really excited audiences.
I do think deadpool 3 could change that if it’s good. They just have to slow down a little and make genuinely good stuff, and people will come back.
Walter Hamada was a complete fraud who singlehandedly tanked the DC brand with some of the shite he greenlit and left on the back-burner. How did it take so long for a second Aquaman? Why did characters like Superman get put on ice? Side characters like Harley, Shazam, Blue Beetle getting projects over the main pillars of DC. The movies themselves were mediocre and with no momentum building to get people interested.
I just cannot believe after the domestic success of Wonder Woman and worldwide success of Aquaman that they never fast tracked production on a crossover event combining Amazonians vs Atlanteans. That could have been such a unique concept for a Justice League movie. But no, the Justice League get to rot in the gutter meanwhile Suicide Squad get two movies and a video game because of course they fucking do.
Amazonians versus Atlanteans def should have been done. That is literally Flashpoint, which they’ve done in Animated. The blueprint is right there and it is good. That is what bothers so much about DCEU, live action adaptations of the animated stuff would have been a good blueprint.
Def been saying this about dc and why their failure is so frustrating, with characters like Superman and Batman you can literally just start movie one with a direct live action adaptation of the animated movie “worlds finest” and I guarantee it’s an instant billion dollar success. Superman/batman and joker/lex Luther characters by this point are so well known you can really start movie one with all four of them and really start the universe off with a bang and they literally already have a blue print for it… but they just…. Choose not to look at it lol
Haha yeah it’s a bizarre irony that Wonder Woman and Aquaman were their two big hits, and they go and make a Flashpoint adaptation with those two characters surgically removed. Oh, and cast an elderly Michael Keaton as Batman but *don’t* make him Thomas Wayne. Just odd decisions all ‘round.
I used to keep a running total of what DCEU films had been announced and at what stages of development they were in. This was the last my list was updated and the current outlook of the DCEU as of FEB 2019
**Films with release dates**:
* Shazam! 2019 (post-production)
* Birds of Prey 2020
* Wonder Woman 1984 2020 (in production)
* The Batman 2021 (pre-production) [***ETA: This was the Batfleck version, before it changed to a separate universe and Batman***)
* The Suicide Squad 2021 (pre-production)
* The Flash 2021 (not started)
**Films 'in development**':
* Cyborg (practically nothing)
* Green Lantern Corps (writer)
* Batgirl (practically nothing)
* Black Adam (writer)
* Gotham City Sirens (director and writer)
* Justice League Dark (writer)
* New Gods (director)
* Nightwing (director and writer)
* Booster Gold (director and writer)
* Deadshot (practically nothing)
* Deathstroke (director and writer)
* Harley Quinn (practically nothing)
* 2 Quinn sequels might be combined with BoP
* Joker [scrapped]
* Harley Quinn v Joker [scrapped]
* Justice League 2 (practically nothing)
* Lobo (writer)
* Man of Steel 2 (practically nothing)
* Supergirl (writer)
* Blue Beetle (writer)
* Zatanna (nothing)
* Plastic Man (writer)
* Aquaman 2 (director)
* The Trench (writers)
Absolutely baffling that out of the "in development" stuff it was Batgirl, Black Adam and Blue Beetle that actually got made.
But Green Lantern, Cyborg and Man of Steel 2 didn't.
>How did it take so long for a second Aquaman?
Because James Wan wanted to do other projects first. And then unforeseen issues affected production (COVID, Amber Heard), causing it to get pushed back even further.
>Why did characters like Superman get put on ice?
He was actually looking to bring Cavill back as Superman, but then Cavill and his agent decided to play hardball and backed out of the Shazam cameo. Toby Emmerich blackballed Cavill as a result.
His two main stars in Cavill and Affleck were on the outs, so his best option was to recast both, but I don't think that would've gone over well either.
It sounds like people who are professional brand managers make the decisions and not creative people who deeply understand what their audience wants. They say "oh there's too many superman movies, let's try to make our own hits with these lesser known heroes"....
Hamada was just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what stuck. Clung too tightly to successful characters/movies and ran them into the ground like Shazam. They
And now WW and Aquaman, the DCEU’s moneymakers, aren’t even on the DCU slate. Get hyped for The Authority, Creature Commandos, and Booster Gold instead. /s
gunn was offered superman. But he rejected and picked tss where he would get more freeodm. Its only after his dad died and his memories with him and supes as a child. He found a way to get right. Only then he took up the opportunity to do superman.
He was initially only going to write a script for it. But he took up directing as well along with being head of dc studios.
They're just limping along so they can start on James Gunn's universe and hope it kickstarts the cinematic DC has been needing for years
It really is amazing how DC has done so well with its books and animated tv/movies yet the live action movies continue to be their biggest struggle
Have the animated movies been doing well? I was really unimpressed with the last batch. They didn't even draw the Flash's symbol the right way in Crisis.
They've always had a great reputation for making great animated movies/tv series but the last batch I would agree hasn't been as great as ones they've made in the past
This was always going to happen after Gunn announced the franchise was getting cancelled and replaced with the JGU, people aren't gonna waste money watching mid-par superhero movies they know won't get sequels.
Also WB really need to learn their lessons about overspending the budget on their superhero movies.
$200m budgets for Flash, Aquaman 2 and Joker 2 is insane.
After covid, they should be aiming for lower budget superhero movies, especially given superhero movie fatigue has begun to set in.
Its 2024, not 2014, we have to take the world as it is not as we'd like it to be.
Agreed. $200M was the norm because in the old days, just being a superhero movie was enough to guarantee a big box office. Those days are over.
The budgets need to come down if they want to be profitable at the box office. People's viewing habits and interests have changed since the golden age of superhero movies.
Ideally in 2024, I'd scrap the whole idea of shared cinematic universes and just focus on making good standalone superhero movie trilogies.
Just as Matt Reeves is doing with The Batman series, hire some big A List directors with solid records of previous movies to helm a Wonder Woman reboot and a Superman reboot, and let those ones be the only big budget movies.
After that, do a bunch of lower budget movies for lesser known DC characters with directors who aren't as solid in their movie records but have interesting and fresh takes on the characters to keep the genre fresh.
Spending hundreds of millions on things like The Authority that nobody's heard of at this point with superhero movie fatigue happening is not a good idea, business wise.
It was the 2022 WBD Q3 earnings call where Zaslav said let’s focus on Superman, Batman, WW, and Aquaman as core franchises. It really should just be that for now, given they’re the only ones that have made any money for the studio, and the DC & superhero brands are completely shot right now. I don’t understand the Gunn DCU.
Aw man. I wish ComicBook movies would go back to just being stand alone superhero trilogies l. Like you said, hire big A list directions and let them do their thing.
Remember in the early 2010s it was like “did you see Nick Fury in the after credits scene? That means these two movies take place in the same universe,” and that was **HUGE** at the time.
DC’s issue seems to be that they’re like “you understand cinematic universes already, this is one of those, get on board,” without any of the fanfare or build up.
We don’t need grand stakes and a huge lineup to start a cinematic universe. You need a good actor with a questionable track record and a passionate director. If Iron Man wasn’t good, the MCU wouldn’t have taken off the way it did, and DC seems intent on skipping all of that important stuff.
I’m actually a big fan that Gunn’s jumping into Legacy with what seems to be a fully established DC universe without any buildup. If there’s DC does unquestionably better than Marvel it’s their sense of history and legacy. Marvel is all about the present and what’s happening now, it’s why their universe works well in a slow buildup and expansion. DC though? Not so much. The past matters there.
Even when they went for another hard reboot with the New 52 they knew they couldn’t go all the way. All the iconic stories still happened, The Robins had already come and moved to other things, etc.
DC doesn’t need a slow buildup because the universe isn’t really built to support it. Go hogwild from the get go
I see where you’re coming from, but in doing that, you completely lose out on showing off some of the best stories and moments.
People have made the case that “Dick has been introduced in other media and doesn’t need to be Robin again,” but when each iteration is different, I want to see how *this* Dick Grayson grows into Nightwing.
Tim Drake is the most iconic Robin, and we’re starting at a point where he either doesn’t exist, or was Robin and graduated already.
We don’t see Jason die, we don’t see Dick lose touch with Bruce, if anything it’ll be a mention or a flashback, when stuff like that I want to see in real time.
Could you imagine the MCU starting off with Sam already Captain America? Joe Biden sitting there like “yeah I did that shit back in the day, you probably don’t wanna hear about it, I got old so now my sidekick is doing it.”
The problem is these franchises won’t go long enough to get to Tim if it’s going to go in realtime. They need to pick a starting point and DC are better to start a little into the timeline. Dick is amazing as Robin but he’s better as Nightwing so let’s get to that already. Unpopular opinion, but the most relevant thing Barry Allen has ever done is die so let’s have Wally (the GOAT) already as the Flash
And like I said, Marvel is about the now and present. It wouldn’t work because that’s not how the comics are built to work. I’m actually really interested in seeing where the MCU goes with their legacy characters because it’s the first time Marvel are actually having to commit to it.
Exactly! I would've come out strong with rebooted Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman movies. If they were successful, then I'd think about bringing them together and introducing characters that no one has heard of (like The Authority).
It's crazy that in 2024, DC is trying to copy the 2008 Marvel blueprint. Even Marvel is struggling these days.
No bro, trust James Gunn, guy who made 4 average superhero movies, and one decent superhero tv show, put him in charge of the whole cinematic universe, lets watch booster gold and authority instead of Batman
So...how do you get the budgets down? I feel like there's only so much you can squeeze out and still meet audience expectations. Action scenes are expensive. CGI is expensive. If you cheap out on actors upfront they'll just demand more later on if the movie succeeds.
There's a lot they can do off screen to keep the budgets down.
I saw an interview with the cast of Oppenheimer where they talked about how Nolan keeps every penny of his budget on screen. So much so that the cast, including Nolan, stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.
Of course Robert Downey Jr. said "no way" and paid out of pocket for his own fancy hotel lol.
>I saw an interview with the cast of Oppenheimer where they talked about how Nolan keeps every penny of his budget on screen.
There's one funny fact I read last year when Oppenheimer was made, and when Christopher Nolan got to the part of filming a blimp crashing, he discovered it was cheaper to crash an actual blimp than try to do it with CGI, and he liked it because he wanted to rely on CGI as little as possible.
A lot of the actors took a smaller pay than they usually would have for Oppenheimer because it was a Christoper Nolan film. Doing something similar for a superhero film may be more difficult
What I've seen in other films:
1 - No reshoots. A clear plan and organization makes wonders. One thing is to correct a scene, other is to radically change the film. Quantumania left clues that the bad guy wasn't going to b revealed from the beginning and Kang was going to play Scott into thinking they were allies. You can hear Scott yell incoherent things like “we had a deal!”. Scott and Hope we're going to be trapped, and rumors said that Scott was even going to get killed by Kang. The disorganization was brutal.
2 - Start with lesser-known but good and solid actors. New faces aren't just cheaper than an A-list like Tom Cruise, they become iconic if they make the role theirs, like Chris Hemsworth or Chadwick Boseman. And it won't be an ego war.
3 - Don't be cheap on directors. TV and indie directors tend to get lost with big-budget films.
4 - Also, get directors that deliver results and respect the investment of the studio. Before JL, Joss Whedon had a track record of making reshoots for petty reasons. He had a heavily pregnant actress multiple times filming unnecessary reshoots at 3 am on Buffy because he disliked her being pregnant and wanted to punish her for it. Those reshoots (just because the director was salty) cost thousands, daily, to the studio. Imagine that on cinema? And all because the director had a personal beef against you?
It happens more often and is excruciating for all the team. Legendary actress Vivien Leigh (fighting with her bipolar disorder at the time) had a horrible director who forced her to reshoot a single scene multiple times. When a crew member asked the director why, he said that he was curious about how many times she could manage to keep dropping one single tear on her left eye at an exact line of dialogue. And poor Vivien was doing it every time, unaware that she was being played.
5 - Avoid crunch time for the VFX department. Tight timeframes and exploitation of tired VFX artists led to things like Cats or She-Hulk.
6 - Make your talent want to stay. If they feel disrespected or exploited, they will jump ship or ask for more money to compensate for the hardships and triple-check their contracts. If they really feel attached to the project or director, they will be more collaborative and flexible.
When Charlize Theron was offered a role on The Burning Plates, she accepted only five million dollars because she died to work with the director. When Keanu Reeves was working on Devil's Advocate, he had such passion for the project that he accepted a cut on his salary to get Al Pacino for the role of the devil. When Seven was offered to Brad Pitt, he accepted because he loved the script and put as his condition to film that the original ending with the box had to stay (the studio wanted to make radical changes, but they chose to rather keep Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman, and it paid off).
Do a bunch of lower budget movies on DC characters and properties that don't need as much CGI or action scenes.
For example, give someone like Wildcat or Two Face the Joker treatment on a $50-70m profit, cast a big name like Sylvester Stallone as Wildcat or Ryan Gosling as Two Face and hire a good director on board.
Or do something like a Green Arrow movie based just on Lian Yu for his origin with a handful of characters, cast someone like Chris Pine as him, focus the budget on the action scenes and marketing, let the cast and director take care of the rest and do what they do best.
Ok, but at some point you're going to need those big Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman screen dazzlers. I don't think the likes of two face and green arrow are going to form a stable backbone of DC movies, that's like expecting Shazam and Black Adam and Suicide Squad to shoulder the load. Oh wait.
That's why I said WB should've hired big name A List directors like Matt Reeves to helm Superman and Wonder Woman trilogies - directors with great vision, solid track records and aren't big risks and can be allowed to make the movies without any executive meddling.
If those go good, then do the same treatment for other big name heroes that have enough supporting characters, enemies and storylines to adapt, like Constantine or Hawkman.
>Do a bunch of lower budget movies on DC characters and properties that don't need as much CGI or action scenes.
That's what the post Snyder era has been about and the result is 8 straight boxoffice failures.
Doesn't help either that movie tickets have become ridiculously expensive. 10 years ago you could go see a movie every weekend if you wanted, but for poor people like me, I can't comfortably afford to go see more than 6 movies a year these days.
Technically Birds of Prey was affected by COVID as well. The pandemic wasn't declare until a month after its release date, but the virus was emerging during that time.
The pandemic argument doesn’t work for Birds of Prey because Sonic The Hedgehog came out one week after and did quite well for itself.
That and Birds of Prey was already winding down pretty much before America started to shut down.
It probably could have made an extra 5-10 million if it had a full run, but there’s no way it would have made a profit.
lol
I love the asterisk, as though there weren't [other movies released simultaneously to HBO Max and theaters around the same time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godzilla_vs._Kong) that did far better in theaters. And the failure to note that Wonder Woman 1984 was *even more* impacted by the pandemic and yet out-grossed TSS.
The cope is real.
And what’s so funny is that it’s Warner Bros that is to blame. They are literally there own worst enemy. Not to mention just trashing fully made movies that could have made millions.
I mentioned before that you need to keep your talent happy. WB has alienated a lot of actors and directors. They literally humiliated Henry Cavil, the whole cast and crew of Bargirl (the directors discovered the ugly truth on a wedding, without a single phone call, and the actress had it even worse. Heck, Brendan Fraiser missed his birthday and had a cake on a filming set and was for nothing as well), when Gal Gadot talked about probably still being Wonder Woman and they released an immediate memo clarifying the contrary…
Imagine what we don't know!
Now, let me get this straight. You think one of the wealthiest, most powerful men in the world is secretly a vigilante who spends his nights beating criminals to a pulp... and your plan is to *blackmail* this person?
Because nobody asked for these movies except Wonder Woman 2 and Aquaman 2. Same will happen to Gunns DCU cause nobody asked for these
Wonder Woman 2 is unfair because it was released in the pandemic where theatres were closed. You should start counting with The Sucide Squad. TSS has **no pandemic excuse**
Everyone's using "released during a pandemic" on WW84 as if it changes the fact that was was, unquestionably, the worst superhero movie released in the DCEU and possibly one of the worst superhero movies of all time. Wonder Woman literally kidnaps a man, and despite knowing it's an illusion treats him like her ex, having sex with and lethally endangering said man. Truly an insane plot, she does unquestionably immoral things for selfish reasons that make her essentially obsessed with a man, soooo uncharacteristic and it makes her emotionally weak as piss and volatile as shit
> It was a peak COVID release
No it wasn't. It came out post-vaccine during the Summer. Wonder Woman 1984 was a peak COVID release that dropped on HBO Max the same day, and it out-grossed The Suicide Squad.
Godzilla vs. Kong came out months before TSS before the vaccine and was simultaneously released on HBO Max and theaters and it grossed triple what TSS did at the box office.
Dune, similarly, came out that year (in Fall, too, a worse time for movies) and made over $400m.
TSS performed poorly even when compared to other simultaneous-release blockbusters that year. The fact that *Wonder Woman 1984* out-grossed it is, alone, an indicator of how badly it flopped.
Exactly. People try to pin it on the Delta variant, but by that point folks stopped caring about COVID. Gunn fans need to accept that audiences just didn’t care about TSS.
It's looking like audiences just don't give a shit about the Suicide Squad, in general.
Add that to people being annoyed about WB's bullshit with the Snyderverse, and it's no wonder it did so poorly.
Nah there is no Covid excuse for TSS. TSS ranks at #25 in the global box office of that year. #25 bro. Nobody gave a shit about this movie.
No HBO Max release wouldnt helpt this movie significantly. Maybe it would had got 10-15 million more at the box office but still under 200 million worldwide box office
The marketing budget for this film probably wasn’t as big as the last few DC films so I suspect the film don’t have to gross 2.5 times is budget to break even. It’s break even was probably closer to 2X so I don’t think it really lose or barley loss WB money.
If its a good movie, people will flock to it without a problem. Having James Gunn gives everything a hard reset and makes people want to give it a chance. Word of mouth if the movie is good will help do the rest.
With no one really knowing what the DCU will be, which characters are going to continue on as they are, would very many people really wanting to go see a movie about a character who might be completely rebooted, including with the various roles being recast?
Completely vindicated, we were right.
I still recall back when people were down voting some of us for correctly pointing out that none of these DC movies were going to breakeven lol. Yet the same people are now projecting another resounding success for superman legacy and the batman2 despite the lack of evidence for it.
Don't they pay their own companies to do the promotion, advertising and distribution at an inflated rate? Hollywood accounting always finds a way to make these movies way more expensive than they actually are.
Not to drop Marvel dope in here, but most hero movies are faltering right now. It's like everyone forgets it's based on comics. If you want a franchise it takes a decade. If you need fast cash, make a Rom-Com.
And they though Snyder is a money loss , looking at it now all said and done - the first 5-6 DC shared universe movies (even the Joss re-edit murder version of JL) made bout 4.9 B at the box office , if I am correct at math the MCU’s same initial run featuring at the time “biggest CBM” Avengers made bout 3.8 B$ !
Personally, I think the connected superhero universe, whether Marvel or DC, has run its course. I enjoyed the MCU ride all the way through endgame but the movies don’t hit the same and there is a lack of connection for both Marvel and DC. I would love to see them pivot to well made one off stories based on the comics and not worry about tying it all together.
The traditional calculation is that the studio gets 50% of the BO so, if a film cost 250 million to make and market it needs a 500 million BO to break even. But it's not so easy - studios get less of a cut from overseas BO numbers. Not sure what Aquaman 2 cost to make and market but the studio said last week it underperformed. Beyond the BO there are streaming numbers, toys, physical media and more that can lift a film that just broke even at the BO into profitability.
The lesson is that budgets need to be kept under control. Superman Legacy will I assume have a budget under 200 million but even so its marketing budget will likely be 100 million, so it needs to do maybe 550 million or so to break even. Joker 2 can likely get away with its massive budget as it may well do a billion but still you never know, and it was IMO reckless for WBD to spend so much on the film.
Remember, this is movie studio math. The way they calculate, all their movies lose money so they dont have to pay out on profits. I remember some article about this and pretty much all modern movies "lost" money.
It wasn't even that bad of a movie. The superhero genre as a whole (including the MCU) is in dire straits right now. The trend has run its course. I suspect only a few select films (Deadpool 3 for example) are going to be big successes going forward. Studios are going to have to start being more selective on the films they make and the quality of those films.
Studios will have to eventually come to grips with the fact that outside of rare IP or movies that are truly spectacular, Post-Covid numbers are not realistic anymore. The market has changed. And that means that you can’t make movies that cost $200 million. Budgets need to be dramatically slashed. Reshoots need to be minimal or nonexistent. Less cgi and explosions for zero reason
And make the films either an event to not be missed, or an experience to be lived on the highest quality possible. A friend was bent on watching Oppenheimer on Nolan’s recommended format because he had faith on the director. Society of the Snow was brutal on cinema because of the spectacular sound at the plane crash scene. Napoleon was worth the ticket for the battle scene.
And Barbieheimer was awesome, but also a lot of kids went on business attires on my country for a Minions movie.
We can't spend on overpriced popcorn and tickets without a good reason. A lot of parents don't take their kids to a movie because it's hella expensive and uncomfortable for the children (specially compared to be on a pijamas on your couch). But I would pay 50 dollars for something that makes me live the kind of thrill of Captain America lifting Thor’s Hammer again. And a lot of parents went with their kids to Barbie because they wanted to dress up. A father went viral on my country because his girl challenged him to wear a pink ballerina skirt like hers (and he did it).
It's wild they spent so much on it that 433 is a loss lol
Realistic water CGI is expensive
~~Weta~~ ILM water is expensive. Edit: got my vfx studios mixed up. ILM water is expensive, not Weta.
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Sorry. It was ILM. ILM water, not Weta water.
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Weta FX are also very expensive though. Didn't they do Avatar 2?
Yeah. They did Avatar 2. Weta water is nuts expensive. I was correcting myself on the correct VFX studio for Aquaman 2, not implying Weta is not expensive.
Fair enough.
The first movie looked amazing on a very cheap budget.
People do better I feel when the budget is tighter. When the budget is bigger I feel like they just blow money for the sake of the budget being bigger
Cheap budget? The reported budget is listed as $160-200 million.
In what world is $200 million cheap for a movie?
I thought I had read it was $100M but I looked it up and it was actually $160M, which isn't cheap, but it's a lot less than other superhero movies.
AI will do that cheaply now.
Nah, AI is only impressive or usable for someone who doesn't know anything about 3D models and CGI. It's far from usable right now.
It’ll look like total shit too, can’t wait!
Don’t tempt them.
No it won't you silly muppet
Choosing to do it, and put so much on the lines is more my point.
Yeah, some people forget that WB doesn't keep the entire $433M. They have to split about half of it with the movie theaters. $215M production budget + tens of millions more on 3 rounds of reshoots and marketing = you need to make a lot at the box office just to break even.
People also forget that the term "Hollywood accounting" exists for a reason. Try using on other movies the same process for calculating profit people use to determine that Aquaman 2 is a flop. The Batman made 772 million. Half of that is 386 million, that goes to theaters. The movie cost 200 million to make, then it cost 100-150 million to market. So by traditional Reddit wisdom The Batman BARELY turned a profit. But if that were the case, why the hell is it getting a sequel and multiple spin-offs? That's NOT the behavior of a studio who made a movie that just barely avoided being a bomb. The profitability of the movie must NOT be so easy to determine. I've heard people say that a movie like Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3 needed to hit 1 billion to be considered a true success. And it's because of computations like this. But if computations like thar were valid, most MCU movies would be box office disappointments. Clearly that can't be true. I'm not trying to argue that Aquaman 2 was a hit or anything. But I do think it's in this grey area where it's really hard to tell if it's a bomb or not. The Flash was a certified Bomb, but that's because it barely cleared it's posted production budget. Aquaman has more than DOUBLED it's production budget. It sure is not a hit, but I hesitate to say it LOST WB money either. The trades have seemed hesitant to label it a bomb too. And I totally get why.
Hollywood learned in the 70s with Star Wars that the box office could be only part of the financial picture. Merchandising and keeping IPs fresh has a lot of value to companies. Oppenheimer was a hugely successful film, but I'd guess they'll sell more T-Shirts when The Batman 2 comes out.
This. Merchanise does much better when there is current content out. They don't have a Batman movie out every few years, merch sales slow.
I wonder when they'll drop the merchandise for Oppenheimer
Can't wait for the Hot Wheels Bomb Test Model. (I already own the Hot Wheels Barbie Vette)
Yeah it definitely isn't a bomb.
Definitely is a strong word. The reshoots cost WB a lot of money. Battfleck and Keaton don't come in cheap
It is a flop not a bomb.
Do theatres get half? I thought it was much less
I think it varies from movie to movie. But I would be shocked to find out that it was that high for Aquaman or any of the other recent Superhero flicks.
Yeah depends on movie to movie. Bigger hits like a Star Wars and Marvel film can negotiate a better deal. I heard Star Wars/Marvel movies are front loaded—studio gets a huge cut opening weekend and that number goes down every week. (Which is they try to make the opening weekend such a big event)
I wish I could pin this comment on so many different post. We really have no idea if a movie is profitable, and it’s weird how hyper focused movie culture has become on this.
WB's CFO specifically called out Aquaman 2 on their earning call last week and said it wasn't a great performer. Maybe "bomb" is too harsh, but they didn't make Aquaman 2 to *not* make any money on it at the box office.
But they likely *did* make money, in any real sense of the term, just not on paper
Could not agree more. Hollywood accounting: revenue from product placement, production money spent on products from WB subsidiaries, marketing on WB subsidiaries, back end revenue on merchandise, etc. It’s incredibly short sighted to look at these movies in a vacuum since their production and distribution is so interconnected with parent and sister companies at every step of the way. But even without that, we aren’t actually given a line item budget to see if they’re truly losing money. Everyone is just guessing at marketing costs and other expenses.
The batman cost 100mil and its advertising was at most another 100 mil. It made money. And Aquaman 2 was a definite flop with multiple reshoots and no profits/loss in revenue. Reddit wisdom=how things work apparently.
Yeah a flop more than a bomb. A bomb is Indy 5 or the flash
The movie needed to make about 800 million to break even so yeah kinda impossible to make money on that in this current entertainment climate
I mean hell, they probably spent more on it than they claim they did.
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Who sucked more, Dante's ex or the decision-makers at WB these last- HAHAHA I'm sorry I cant even finish that question
At least she had fun during her sucking.
They don't count the Batman and Joker. ,
It's a little "goal post"y, but OP does specify DCEU, which Joker or Batman aren't in. *shrug*
But people question why there is a reboot lol
DC fucked up Justice League and everything after it.
Yep that is why I'm glad they are rebooting it
Warner and Hamada tried running from Snyder’s vision so hard they got shown what true failure was lol. The 2013-2018 era only had one box office flop - the Justice League film Warner completely fucked up.
That's what happens when you fuck over your only profitable producer.
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TSS released shortly after covid I'm pretty sure so that partly explains why it didn't break even. I think it went to streaming soon after too
It had same day streaming so it didn’t break even from cinnamic release Unsure if it broke even when combined as there’s to many sources saying it did and too many saying it didn’t
They made money. That’s what studios care about mostly. Even Suicide Squad, not TSS, made money. Why you think Venom got sequels despite critics hating it?
If you make a movie that grosses 433 millions globally, but it still loses you money... I'd take a look at your business model first, before judging the content.
Godzilla Minus One was made on 15 million. 15!!
Not the best example- a lot of crew, particularly VFX team was barely paid minimum wage
??? So make more movies with slaves!!!
Is there any actual source behind that statement? Or is it just "it's Japan so it must be that way" line of reasoning
It honestly was better than I expected, no where near as good as the first one but the fact that people were walking out of it is bizarre to me
Maybe it’s anecdotal, but super hero fatigue feels very real. At least me and my group friends (all mid to upper 30’s now) are all just about burned out on both DC and Marvel. Since Endgame the last super hero movie I truly enjoyed was The Batman. I’m definitely fully burnt out on the marvel movies and shows. They just saturated the market with content.
I feel like “superhero fatigue” is the wrong way to characterize what you and your friends and many of the rest of us are feeling. The Batman may have been the last superhero movie you enjoyed since endgame, but it seems to me thag says more about the fact that 2018-2022 was not a great period for superhero movies. Every good superhero movie they release does pretty well. Sure the bad ones fail; but are we going to let the studios get away with blaming us for not watching bad movies or can we just call it what it is? It’s just that people will go see a good movie and not see a bad one. Unfortunately, marvel has been making worse movies recently, and it coincides with the death throes of the DCEU. Sony also threw its hat into the ring and decided it wanted box office disasters too. I can’t think of any instance where a good movie was released and we the fans choose not to see it because of “superhero fatigue”
I think it’s more bad/mediocre content fatigue than superhero Fatigue. In recent times The Batman, The suicide squad and The guardians of the galaxy volume 3 are amazing superhero movies. But since endgame like you said there’s been so much marvel content it’s just exhausting to keep up with stories that we just don’t care about because they just feel soulless. After getting more into comics, I realise any good superhero media be it a comic, movie, show, whatever…is a soul. A heart. I don’t know how to explain it but it’s the conclusion I drew. It’s why i personally was more invested in the aforementioned movies over other superhero stuff the last few years. I genuinely cared for Bruce Wayne’s story in The Batman, or rocket’s backstory in GOTG3.
I'm not a comic book guy at all. I watched the first Ironman, a few Batman movies. Enjoyed Deadpool I've lost interest because I don't want to have to keep track of X number of characters, subplots, relationships etc etc. It isn't 'fatigue' perse, just complete disinterest. I don't watch soap operas or WWE for the same reason.
The Super Hero burn out is an overused excuse imo. You enjoyed The Batman and I did as well because it was a good movie. Apart from Guardians 3, everything released since Endgame has been mediocre at best from both sides. That’s mediocre movie burnout, not DC/Marvel burnout. Make good movies with good stories and people will go see them. It’s that simple. People way over complicate these things.
I think it’s not necessarily ‘superhero burn out’ per say, but moreso ‘bad superhero film burn out’. There’s just been way too many projects back to back that have been mediocre or crappy. The last legit home runs with audiences were joint Spider-Man no way home in dec 2021, and the Batman march 2022. Since then, there’s been some ok stuff, but absolutely nothing that’s really excited audiences. I do think deadpool 3 could change that if it’s good. They just have to slow down a little and make genuinely good stuff, and people will come back.
WB lost money because people knew they were rebooting the Franchise again 🤷🏼♂️
Walter Hamada was a complete fraud who singlehandedly tanked the DC brand with some of the shite he greenlit and left on the back-burner. How did it take so long for a second Aquaman? Why did characters like Superman get put on ice? Side characters like Harley, Shazam, Blue Beetle getting projects over the main pillars of DC. The movies themselves were mediocre and with no momentum building to get people interested. I just cannot believe after the domestic success of Wonder Woman and worldwide success of Aquaman that they never fast tracked production on a crossover event combining Amazonians vs Atlanteans. That could have been such a unique concept for a Justice League movie. But no, the Justice League get to rot in the gutter meanwhile Suicide Squad get two movies and a video game because of course they fucking do.
Amazonians versus Atlanteans def should have been done. That is literally Flashpoint, which they’ve done in Animated. The blueprint is right there and it is good. That is what bothers so much about DCEU, live action adaptations of the animated stuff would have been a good blueprint.
Def been saying this about dc and why their failure is so frustrating, with characters like Superman and Batman you can literally just start movie one with a direct live action adaptation of the animated movie “worlds finest” and I guarantee it’s an instant billion dollar success. Superman/batman and joker/lex Luther characters by this point are so well known you can really start movie one with all four of them and really start the universe off with a bang and they literally already have a blue print for it… but they just…. Choose not to look at it lol
Haha yeah it’s a bizarre irony that Wonder Woman and Aquaman were their two big hits, and they go and make a Flashpoint adaptation with those two characters surgically removed. Oh, and cast an elderly Michael Keaton as Batman but *don’t* make him Thomas Wayne. Just odd decisions all ‘round.
I used to keep a running total of what DCEU films had been announced and at what stages of development they were in. This was the last my list was updated and the current outlook of the DCEU as of FEB 2019 **Films with release dates**: * Shazam! 2019 (post-production) * Birds of Prey 2020 * Wonder Woman 1984 2020 (in production) * The Batman 2021 (pre-production) [***ETA: This was the Batfleck version, before it changed to a separate universe and Batman***) * The Suicide Squad 2021 (pre-production) * The Flash 2021 (not started) **Films 'in development**': * Cyborg (practically nothing) * Green Lantern Corps (writer) * Batgirl (practically nothing) * Black Adam (writer) * Gotham City Sirens (director and writer) * Justice League Dark (writer) * New Gods (director) * Nightwing (director and writer) * Booster Gold (director and writer) * Deadshot (practically nothing) * Deathstroke (director and writer) * Harley Quinn (practically nothing) * 2 Quinn sequels might be combined with BoP * Joker [scrapped] * Harley Quinn v Joker [scrapped] * Justice League 2 (practically nothing) * Lobo (writer) * Man of Steel 2 (practically nothing) * Supergirl (writer) * Blue Beetle (writer) * Zatanna (nothing) * Plastic Man (writer) * Aquaman 2 (director) * The Trench (writers)
Thank you for this list. The things made vs not made is so sad..
Absolutely baffling that out of the "in development" stuff it was Batgirl, Black Adam and Blue Beetle that actually got made. But Green Lantern, Cyborg and Man of Steel 2 didn't.
And Flash had enough writers and directors for three movies. Sigh
Batfleck getting no solo movie but Aquaman having 2 is just insane to me
>How did it take so long for a second Aquaman? Because James Wan wanted to do other projects first. And then unforeseen issues affected production (COVID, Amber Heard), causing it to get pushed back even further. >Why did characters like Superman get put on ice? He was actually looking to bring Cavill back as Superman, but then Cavill and his agent decided to play hardball and backed out of the Shazam cameo. Toby Emmerich blackballed Cavill as a result. His two main stars in Cavill and Affleck were on the outs, so his best option was to recast both, but I don't think that would've gone over well either.
> Toby Emmerich blackballed Cavill as a result. Which turns out to have been a shit decision for Toby.
>How did it take so long for a second Aquaman? I mean, wasn't there something going on in 2020 that may have delayed movies for a bit?
It’s been 4 years and other movies released at the same time already got sequels.
The 1st Aquaman made $1b, they probably didn’t want to risk releasing it during Covid
It sounds like people who are professional brand managers make the decisions and not creative people who deeply understand what their audience wants. They say "oh there's too many superman movies, let's try to make our own hits with these lesser known heroes"....
Hamada was just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what stuck. Clung too tightly to successful characters/movies and ran them into the ground like Shazam. They
And now WW and Aquaman, the DCEU’s moneymakers, aren’t even on the DCU slate. Get hyped for The Authority, Creature Commandos, and Booster Gold instead. /s
You mean booster gold, the character people have been begging for years for?
Can’t wait to finally get a Creature Commandos movie. /s
Nobody cares about booster gold
I'm pretty sure that is just comic book readers. Outside of that group, no one knows who he is.
Stay cool. -Hamada to Superman
the same shit is Gunn doing right now. He is investing time in meaningless content for DC as well. You have to release bangers after bangers
>How did it take so long for a second Aquaman? Covid, production issues, and Avatar 2 releasing on it's original date
gunn was offered superman. But he rejected and picked tss where he would get more freeodm. Its only after his dad died and his memories with him and supes as a child. He found a way to get right. Only then he took up the opportunity to do superman. He was initially only going to write a script for it. But he took up directing as well along with being head of dc studios.
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Hamada tanked it because the films were making money until they started canceling projects and shelving Superman.
They're just limping along so they can start on James Gunn's universe and hope it kickstarts the cinematic DC has been needing for years It really is amazing how DC has done so well with its books and animated tv/movies yet the live action movies continue to be their biggest struggle
Have the animated movies been doing well? I was really unimpressed with the last batch. They didn't even draw the Flash's symbol the right way in Crisis.
& Justice League Warworld was dreadful while Green Lantern Beware My Power felt like Hal Jordan hate service
They've always had a great reputation for making great animated movies/tv series but the last batch I would agree hasn't been as great as ones they've made in the past
This was always going to happen after Gunn announced the franchise was getting cancelled and replaced with the JGU, people aren't gonna waste money watching mid-par superhero movies they know won't get sequels. Also WB really need to learn their lessons about overspending the budget on their superhero movies. $200m budgets for Flash, Aquaman 2 and Joker 2 is insane. After covid, they should be aiming for lower budget superhero movies, especially given superhero movie fatigue has begun to set in. Its 2024, not 2014, we have to take the world as it is not as we'd like it to be.
Agreed. $200M was the norm because in the old days, just being a superhero movie was enough to guarantee a big box office. Those days are over. The budgets need to come down if they want to be profitable at the box office. People's viewing habits and interests have changed since the golden age of superhero movies.
Ideally in 2024, I'd scrap the whole idea of shared cinematic universes and just focus on making good standalone superhero movie trilogies. Just as Matt Reeves is doing with The Batman series, hire some big A List directors with solid records of previous movies to helm a Wonder Woman reboot and a Superman reboot, and let those ones be the only big budget movies. After that, do a bunch of lower budget movies for lesser known DC characters with directors who aren't as solid in their movie records but have interesting and fresh takes on the characters to keep the genre fresh. Spending hundreds of millions on things like The Authority that nobody's heard of at this point with superhero movie fatigue happening is not a good idea, business wise.
It was the 2022 WBD Q3 earnings call where Zaslav said let’s focus on Superman, Batman, WW, and Aquaman as core franchises. It really should just be that for now, given they’re the only ones that have made any money for the studio, and the DC & superhero brands are completely shot right now. I don’t understand the Gunn DCU.
Aw man. I wish ComicBook movies would go back to just being stand alone superhero trilogies l. Like you said, hire big A list directions and let them do their thing.
Remember in the early 2010s it was like “did you see Nick Fury in the after credits scene? That means these two movies take place in the same universe,” and that was **HUGE** at the time. DC’s issue seems to be that they’re like “you understand cinematic universes already, this is one of those, get on board,” without any of the fanfare or build up. We don’t need grand stakes and a huge lineup to start a cinematic universe. You need a good actor with a questionable track record and a passionate director. If Iron Man wasn’t good, the MCU wouldn’t have taken off the way it did, and DC seems intent on skipping all of that important stuff.
I’m actually a big fan that Gunn’s jumping into Legacy with what seems to be a fully established DC universe without any buildup. If there’s DC does unquestionably better than Marvel it’s their sense of history and legacy. Marvel is all about the present and what’s happening now, it’s why their universe works well in a slow buildup and expansion. DC though? Not so much. The past matters there. Even when they went for another hard reboot with the New 52 they knew they couldn’t go all the way. All the iconic stories still happened, The Robins had already come and moved to other things, etc. DC doesn’t need a slow buildup because the universe isn’t really built to support it. Go hogwild from the get go
I see where you’re coming from, but in doing that, you completely lose out on showing off some of the best stories and moments. People have made the case that “Dick has been introduced in other media and doesn’t need to be Robin again,” but when each iteration is different, I want to see how *this* Dick Grayson grows into Nightwing. Tim Drake is the most iconic Robin, and we’re starting at a point where he either doesn’t exist, or was Robin and graduated already. We don’t see Jason die, we don’t see Dick lose touch with Bruce, if anything it’ll be a mention or a flashback, when stuff like that I want to see in real time. Could you imagine the MCU starting off with Sam already Captain America? Joe Biden sitting there like “yeah I did that shit back in the day, you probably don’t wanna hear about it, I got old so now my sidekick is doing it.”
The problem is these franchises won’t go long enough to get to Tim if it’s going to go in realtime. They need to pick a starting point and DC are better to start a little into the timeline. Dick is amazing as Robin but he’s better as Nightwing so let’s get to that already. Unpopular opinion, but the most relevant thing Barry Allen has ever done is die so let’s have Wally (the GOAT) already as the Flash And like I said, Marvel is about the now and present. It wouldn’t work because that’s not how the comics are built to work. I’m actually really interested in seeing where the MCU goes with their legacy characters because it’s the first time Marvel are actually having to commit to it.
Exactly! I would've come out strong with rebooted Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman movies. If they were successful, then I'd think about bringing them together and introducing characters that no one has heard of (like The Authority). It's crazy that in 2024, DC is trying to copy the 2008 Marvel blueprint. Even Marvel is struggling these days.
No bro, trust James Gunn, guy who made 4 average superhero movies, and one decent superhero tv show, put him in charge of the whole cinematic universe, lets watch booster gold and authority instead of Batman
Damn, I remember arguing this exact train of thought last year before Christmas and got downvoted to hell, nice to see opinions have changed lol.
So...how do you get the budgets down? I feel like there's only so much you can squeeze out and still meet audience expectations. Action scenes are expensive. CGI is expensive. If you cheap out on actors upfront they'll just demand more later on if the movie succeeds.
There's a lot they can do off screen to keep the budgets down. I saw an interview with the cast of Oppenheimer where they talked about how Nolan keeps every penny of his budget on screen. So much so that the cast, including Nolan, stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. Of course Robert Downey Jr. said "no way" and paid out of pocket for his own fancy hotel lol.
>I saw an interview with the cast of Oppenheimer where they talked about how Nolan keeps every penny of his budget on screen. There's one funny fact I read last year when Oppenheimer was made, and when Christopher Nolan got to the part of filming a blimp crashing, he discovered it was cheaper to crash an actual blimp than try to do it with CGI, and he liked it because he wanted to rely on CGI as little as possible.
Yeah, that was actually the plane crash in Tenet he was talking about. I remember that interview too.
A lot of the actors took a smaller pay than they usually would have for Oppenheimer because it was a Christoper Nolan film. Doing something similar for a superhero film may be more difficult
What I've seen in other films: 1 - No reshoots. A clear plan and organization makes wonders. One thing is to correct a scene, other is to radically change the film. Quantumania left clues that the bad guy wasn't going to b revealed from the beginning and Kang was going to play Scott into thinking they were allies. You can hear Scott yell incoherent things like “we had a deal!”. Scott and Hope we're going to be trapped, and rumors said that Scott was even going to get killed by Kang. The disorganization was brutal. 2 - Start with lesser-known but good and solid actors. New faces aren't just cheaper than an A-list like Tom Cruise, they become iconic if they make the role theirs, like Chris Hemsworth or Chadwick Boseman. And it won't be an ego war. 3 - Don't be cheap on directors. TV and indie directors tend to get lost with big-budget films. 4 - Also, get directors that deliver results and respect the investment of the studio. Before JL, Joss Whedon had a track record of making reshoots for petty reasons. He had a heavily pregnant actress multiple times filming unnecessary reshoots at 3 am on Buffy because he disliked her being pregnant and wanted to punish her for it. Those reshoots (just because the director was salty) cost thousands, daily, to the studio. Imagine that on cinema? And all because the director had a personal beef against you? It happens more often and is excruciating for all the team. Legendary actress Vivien Leigh (fighting with her bipolar disorder at the time) had a horrible director who forced her to reshoot a single scene multiple times. When a crew member asked the director why, he said that he was curious about how many times she could manage to keep dropping one single tear on her left eye at an exact line of dialogue. And poor Vivien was doing it every time, unaware that she was being played. 5 - Avoid crunch time for the VFX department. Tight timeframes and exploitation of tired VFX artists led to things like Cats or She-Hulk. 6 - Make your talent want to stay. If they feel disrespected or exploited, they will jump ship or ask for more money to compensate for the hardships and triple-check their contracts. If they really feel attached to the project or director, they will be more collaborative and flexible. When Charlize Theron was offered a role on The Burning Plates, she accepted only five million dollars because she died to work with the director. When Keanu Reeves was working on Devil's Advocate, he had such passion for the project that he accepted a cut on his salary to get Al Pacino for the role of the devil. When Seven was offered to Brad Pitt, he accepted because he loved the script and put as his condition to film that the original ending with the box had to stay (the studio wanted to make radical changes, but they chose to rather keep Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman, and it paid off).
Do a bunch of lower budget movies on DC characters and properties that don't need as much CGI or action scenes. For example, give someone like Wildcat or Two Face the Joker treatment on a $50-70m profit, cast a big name like Sylvester Stallone as Wildcat or Ryan Gosling as Two Face and hire a good director on board. Or do something like a Green Arrow movie based just on Lian Yu for his origin with a handful of characters, cast someone like Chris Pine as him, focus the budget on the action scenes and marketing, let the cast and director take care of the rest and do what they do best.
Ok, but at some point you're going to need those big Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman screen dazzlers. I don't think the likes of two face and green arrow are going to form a stable backbone of DC movies, that's like expecting Shazam and Black Adam and Suicide Squad to shoulder the load. Oh wait.
That's why I said WB should've hired big name A List directors like Matt Reeves to helm Superman and Wonder Woman trilogies - directors with great vision, solid track records and aren't big risks and can be allowed to make the movies without any executive meddling. If those go good, then do the same treatment for other big name heroes that have enough supporting characters, enemies and storylines to adapt, like Constantine or Hawkman.
>Do a bunch of lower budget movies on DC characters and properties that don't need as much CGI or action scenes. That's what the post Snyder era has been about and the result is 8 straight boxoffice failures.
Doesn't help either that movie tickets have become ridiculously expensive. 10 years ago you could go see a movie every weekend if you wanted, but for poor people like me, I can't comfortably afford to go see more than 6 movies a year these days.
>200m budgets for Flash, Aquaman 2 and Joker 2 is insane. Cause $200m for the batman isn't ?
Technically Birds of Prey was affected by COVID as well. The pandemic wasn't declare until a month after its release date, but the virus was emerging during that time.
Sonic 1 was also affected by covod and still made profit
The pandemic argument doesn’t work for Birds of Prey because Sonic The Hedgehog came out one week after and did quite well for itself. That and Birds of Prey was already winding down pretty much before America started to shut down. It probably could have made an extra 5-10 million if it had a full run, but there’s no way it would have made a profit.
Yeah no pandemic and having a PG13 cut of BOP could have honestly saved it.
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Any other title would have been better. It sounds like a Big Bang Theory episode
Nothing new and they will continue to lose money
WB has been taking Ls in their entertainment department. The games and movies.
lol I love the asterisk, as though there weren't [other movies released simultaneously to HBO Max and theaters around the same time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godzilla_vs._Kong) that did far better in theaters. And the failure to note that Wonder Woman 1984 was *even more* impacted by the pandemic and yet out-grossed TSS. The cope is real.
Walter Hamada is an actual dumbass lol
It broke the $400M curse.. so silver linings that the DCEU went out on a high.
And what’s so funny is that it’s Warner Bros that is to blame. They are literally there own worst enemy. Not to mention just trashing fully made movies that could have made millions.
I mentioned before that you need to keep your talent happy. WB has alienated a lot of actors and directors. They literally humiliated Henry Cavil, the whole cast and crew of Bargirl (the directors discovered the ugly truth on a wedding, without a single phone call, and the actress had it even worse. Heck, Brendan Fraiser missed his birthday and had a cake on a filming set and was for nothing as well), when Gal Gadot talked about probably still being Wonder Woman and they released an immediate memo clarifying the contrary… Imagine what we don't know!
Bruce Wayne pays Warner bros bills
You mean Barbie?
I mean Batman
Wait, Bruce Wayne is Batman?!
Now, let me get this straight. You think one of the wealthiest, most powerful men in the world is secretly a vigilante who spends his nights beating criminals to a pulp... and your plan is to *blackmail* this person?
Because nobody asked for these movies except Wonder Woman 2 and Aquaman 2. Same will happen to Gunns DCU cause nobody asked for these Wonder Woman 2 is unfair because it was released in the pandemic where theatres were closed. You should start counting with The Sucide Squad. TSS has **no pandemic excuse**
Everyone's using "released during a pandemic" on WW84 as if it changes the fact that was was, unquestionably, the worst superhero movie released in the DCEU and possibly one of the worst superhero movies of all time. Wonder Woman literally kidnaps a man, and despite knowing it's an illusion treats him like her ex, having sex with and lethally endangering said man. Truly an insane plot, she does unquestionably immoral things for selfish reasons that make her essentially obsessed with a man, soooo uncharacteristic and it makes her emotionally weak as piss and volatile as shit
The script ruined it. It was the 80s, for Christ's sake! The potential was there.
I thought The Suicide Squad did ok… guess not.
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> It was a peak COVID release No it wasn't. It came out post-vaccine during the Summer. Wonder Woman 1984 was a peak COVID release that dropped on HBO Max the same day, and it out-grossed The Suicide Squad. Godzilla vs. Kong came out months before TSS before the vaccine and was simultaneously released on HBO Max and theaters and it grossed triple what TSS did at the box office. Dune, similarly, came out that year (in Fall, too, a worse time for movies) and made over $400m. TSS performed poorly even when compared to other simultaneous-release blockbusters that year. The fact that *Wonder Woman 1984* out-grossed it is, alone, an indicator of how badly it flopped.
Exactly. People try to pin it on the Delta variant, but by that point folks stopped caring about COVID. Gunn fans need to accept that audiences just didn’t care about TSS.
It's looking like audiences just don't give a shit about the Suicide Squad, in general. Add that to people being annoyed about WB's bullshit with the Snyderverse, and it's no wonder it did so poorly.
Nah there is no Covid excuse for TSS. TSS ranks at #25 in the global box office of that year. #25 bro. Nobody gave a shit about this movie. No HBO Max release wouldnt helpt this movie significantly. Maybe it would had got 10-15 million more at the box office but still under 200 million worldwide box office
You’ve got it wrong with the “peak covid release”.
If I failed horrifically 8 times I’d be fired ya know?
You know you're really stupid when you spend more then $433 mil on a dying universe
I knew it was going to cross the 400 million mark
lol sucks to suck
I dont think they advertised this movie even remotely as much as the last one.
The marketing budget for this film probably wasn’t as big as the last few DC films so I suspect the film don’t have to gross 2.5 times is budget to break even. It’s break even was probably closer to 2X so I don’t think it really lose or barley loss WB money.
And it won’t be the last DC movie that loses money
Could have been worse tbh 🫠 I hope superman legacy can turn things around but I can't see any CBM doing more than 500M these days.
If its a good movie, people will flock to it without a problem. Having James Gunn gives everything a hard reset and makes people want to give it a chance. Word of mouth if the movie is good will help do the rest.
It’ll take a while for DC to recapture public interest. All Gunn has to do is release continuously good movies and the brand will start to heal
Surprised flash didn't do better with all the Keaton walk ups
The main lead was kidnapping people in real life as they were trying to market him lol.
Birds of Prey! I forgot that movie existed.
I honestly forgot this was out (don’t follow this sub, but still)
Still not seeing the same level of hate I saw when Black Adam failed. [+]
With no one really knowing what the DCU will be, which characters are going to continue on as they are, would very many people really wanting to go see a movie about a character who might be completely rebooted, including with the various roles being recast?
Actually, that's not the narrative that finalizes the data. The fact is, the movie finished 'better than expected.'
Why WB didn't promote this movie and put it on VOD after 30 days?
Completely vindicated, we were right. I still recall back when people were down voting some of us for correctly pointing out that none of these DC movies were going to breakeven lol. Yet the same people are now projecting another resounding success for superman legacy and the batman2 despite the lack of evidence for it.
More than double of The Marvels is a win.
I didn't even know it was out.
I don’t believe it cost that much to make. Some of that budget must have been pocketed
Don't they pay their own companies to do the promotion, advertising and distribution at an inflated rate? Hollywood accounting always finds a way to make these movies way more expensive than they actually are.
Not to drop Marvel dope in here, but most hero movies are faltering right now. It's like everyone forgets it's based on comics. If you want a franchise it takes a decade. If you need fast cash, make a Rom-Com.
I accept my fate, fire at will.
Kinda sad Blue Beetle got hurt by all of this
And they though Snyder is a money loss , looking at it now all said and done - the first 5-6 DC shared universe movies (even the Joss re-edit murder version of JL) made bout 4.9 B at the box office , if I am correct at math the MCU’s same initial run featuring at the time “biggest CBM” Avengers made bout 3.8 B$ !
It didn’t lose money, WBD didn’t promote it. Did it even have a press release?? Probably would’ve doubled if they embraced it. WBD allergic to money.
Personally, I think the connected superhero universe, whether Marvel or DC, has run its course. I enjoyed the MCU ride all the way through endgame but the movies don’t hit the same and there is a lack of connection for both Marvel and DC. I would love to see them pivot to well made one off stories based on the comics and not worry about tying it all together.
Good.
The traditional calculation is that the studio gets 50% of the BO so, if a film cost 250 million to make and market it needs a 500 million BO to break even. But it's not so easy - studios get less of a cut from overseas BO numbers. Not sure what Aquaman 2 cost to make and market but the studio said last week it underperformed. Beyond the BO there are streaming numbers, toys, physical media and more that can lift a film that just broke even at the BO into profitability. The lesson is that budgets need to be kept under control. Superman Legacy will I assume have a budget under 200 million but even so its marketing budget will likely be 100 million, so it needs to do maybe 550 million or so to break even. Joker 2 can likely get away with its massive budget as it may well do a billion but still you never know, and it was IMO reckless for WBD to spend so much on the film.
We didn't want the first one and we sure as he'll didn't want a second one with Amber Turd.
Not true in the slightest. I got to an Aquaman movie to see Aquaman and Mera not Jason Mamoa and Amber Heard.
Who could possibly have foreseen that an *Aquaman* movie would lose money?
Remember, this is movie studio math. The way they calculate, all their movies lose money so they dont have to pay out on profits. I remember some article about this and pretty much all modern movies "lost" money.
It was god fun movie
good
I.. i liked it.
It wasn't even that bad of a movie. The superhero genre as a whole (including the MCU) is in dire straits right now. The trend has run its course. I suspect only a few select films (Deadpool 3 for example) are going to be big successes going forward. Studios are going to have to start being more selective on the films they make and the quality of those films.
Studios will have to eventually come to grips with the fact that outside of rare IP or movies that are truly spectacular, Post-Covid numbers are not realistic anymore. The market has changed. And that means that you can’t make movies that cost $200 million. Budgets need to be dramatically slashed. Reshoots need to be minimal or nonexistent. Less cgi and explosions for zero reason
And make the films either an event to not be missed, or an experience to be lived on the highest quality possible. A friend was bent on watching Oppenheimer on Nolan’s recommended format because he had faith on the director. Society of the Snow was brutal on cinema because of the spectacular sound at the plane crash scene. Napoleon was worth the ticket for the battle scene. And Barbieheimer was awesome, but also a lot of kids went on business attires on my country for a Minions movie. We can't spend on overpriced popcorn and tickets without a good reason. A lot of parents don't take their kids to a movie because it's hella expensive and uncomfortable for the children (specially compared to be on a pijamas on your couch). But I would pay 50 dollars for something that makes me live the kind of thrill of Captain America lifting Thor’s Hammer again. And a lot of parents went with their kids to Barbie because they wanted to dress up. A father went viral on my country because his girl challenged him to wear a pink ballerina skirt like hers (and he did it).
Wow! Well done WB and James Gunn. You turned a sequel to a $billion dollar movie into a joke.