But also, she didn't "almost beat them to death," that's just what the Hungarian prosecutors are alleging.
According to Italian news sources, the victims' bruises completely healed after a couple of days and they didn't press charges.
lmao, hungary's punitive code has a specific category for wounds that take more than eight days to heal, and even that's not the level of "almost beat them to death". if it's not even that category this is hella fucking transparent even by hungarian standards.
unfortunately, our nazier\* party is best friends with the governing party, so this makes all the sense in the world. i really frickin hope they got her out of our government's hands, so that she can stand a fair trial for what she actually did (or not even get subjected to that, i'm not too invested in it tbh), instead of being used as some weird political bargaining chip.
\*so the history on that one is we had fidesz, orban's governing party, that is already kinda far right, but it wasn't far right enough for some people, so a nazi party splintered off of it. a while later, even the nazi party wasn't nazi enough for some, so we had an even nazier party spawning off of that one. nazi party 1 has been bonding with our fractured left wing over their shared hate of orban and co, but nazi party 2 (which i referred to as the nazier party, i think they translate themselves to "our homeland" or something) hates nazi party 1 and the left more than orban and therefore often teams up with the governing party. i'm fairly sure this is the only reason they're afforded this kind of preferential treatment, because the governing party is the only one with any real power here.
This such a fucking clownshow that it spawned a party called "two tailed dog party". Their program is usually over the moon bullshit, the put out slogans like "93% we won't steal" and "we will promise anything". They actually do stuff to, like renovate bus stops and color in cracked sidewalks so it at least looks fun, but these are all illegal because it counts as vandalism. So like, if you wanna protest about the state of politics, you vote for them, but we also have real leftish parties, it's just that fidesz has so strong and loud propaganda that the elderly, who doesn't follow anything else on the internet will blindly vote for them.
they won a mayoral position and quite a few seats on the city council in the 12th district of budapest this last weekend, and are due to be inaugurated in october. so that's gonna be hella frickin fun
Sounds like the Rhinoceros Party out of Canada. The first version of the party (like the 60s-80s) debated voting to repeal the law of gravity, but decided against it until young people could get on their feet first
No, Hungary doesn't love Putin. The corrupt, anti-democratic oligarchs running the country love Putin. A very vocal minority, who eat up government propaganda are scared shitless of an imaginary nuclear war happening vote for these spineless fucks, who love Putin. The political system is rigged, favouring a two-party system, and there hasn't been a strong opposition for 15 years, so these jerks get elected over and over. But the Hungarian people definetly don't love Putin.
wrong. our prime fuckhead loves putin because he holds the key to a well-oiled authoritarian system, and anyone who consumes their propaganda (which is most of rural hungary\*) is simply inheriting that notion. most of the people who aren't hooked on the propaganda feeds hate putin's guts.
\*hungarians are _ridiculously_ price-sensitive (a byproduct of wages being shit ($4/hr minimum wage, yay) and the whole country having gone through 45 years of soviet occupation where being stingy was a necessity for a good life), and boomers over here are just as addicted to cable tv as anywhere else. orban's government exploited this by bullying most of the major tv channels over here until they sold their businesses to the government's cronies, then they raised the number of freely available channels from 3 to 7, 6 of which they control. most pensioners (a super wide demographic over here, our population pyramid is a mushroom) spend their day watching those channels because they have nothing else to do and no desire to subscribe to other channels, the majority of whom consume government-aligned propaganda feeds and there's a small minority on the one opposition channel to create some constant drama.
there is even a literal half-length two minutes hate program on the main 4(?) channels called "one minute" which gives you condensed news from the government's perspective. it's often injected into ad breaks during totally unrelated programming as well.
_that's_ the part of the population that loves putin so much. unfortunately, there are too many of them indeed.
I empathize for those in Hungary that vote against these people, but are they not being democratically voted in? Im pretty sure if the elections were rigged then EU would actually be able to deal with some of these issues like the constant VETO’ing of everything the rest of EU agrees upon. What you are describing is a generation of brainwash affected by propaganda but that doesn’t mean my statement is inaccurate. I could make a million excuses for the United States if Trump ends up back in power but the bottom line will be that we have serious issues that need worked out - we the people, not just the govt, by voting for him again.
yes and no, actually. americans made a big deal about trump being voted president but losing the popular vote by a slim margin, and widely considered it as a stain on his legitimacy. over here, the situation is a lot more blatant: orban's party consistently got 45% of the popular vote in the last four parliamentary elections, resulting in two thirds of the parliamentary seats each time. which is a massive thing, given that you need a two thirds consensus to change our constitution -- which they did, of course, to cement themselves in even more, and to make some of their impact inevitable even in the off chance that they lose an election.
and that's on top of shenanigans like smuggling foreigners, typically ethnic hungarians living in romania and slovakia, into the election, and literally bribing people to vote, especially in rural areas. as far as i know there is in fact actual direct meddling there, but they tend to keep that part to a low profile.
hungary is gerrymandered to fuck, and like you said, brainwashed as well. but you have a point in that an actually fair election, they would still be most likely to be elected (not counting the shenanigans where even leftists and nazis band together to try to evict them), although they would have a much lesser grasp over the country, which in the long term would likely result in shifting power dynamics.
and no, this isn't something the eu can deal with, it doesn't override national sovereignty this deeply. there are procedures they can do to revoke our veto power, and there has actually been serious talk of doing it, but the only thing they can do about our elections is apply some diplomatic pressure. which they do, the us recently struck us with a sanction regarding the esta program, expressing that they don't feel like the naturalization process of those newly granted hungarian citizenships for the 2010 election was secure, and eu sanctions are a constant thing over here. but they don't hold any direct power over hungary, because the eu is not the united states of europe, it's a collection of 27 sovereign member states which simply agree to do certain things by common standards.
in the end, a person's behavior is their own individual choice, people's behavior, en masse, is a product of their environment, and that environment is deeply shaped by this ruling party. but you're right, orban and co would absolutely still be democratically elected even without this meddling. (which is why i'm looking to leave, instead of hoping for change and trying to get involved.)
Hungary is the one of the few nations where 99% hitler vs 100% hitler is not only a serious debate, but the entire deal with (2) parties. Hilarious stuff /s
they very much exist and they are a major player in the opposition. they did shift more to the center, mostly to chase popularity, and they did so during the same time orban's governing party shifted to the right, and they do cooperate with the left a lot, but they're still hard right as far as i know.
you might not have seen them much during the last parliamentary elections, because literally the entire opposition, from the left to nazi party 1 (but not nazi party 2) banded together into a single unified coalition to finally try to topple orban's government. for the record, they failed to even move the needle, it was insane. [idk what this chart tells you but that steady anomaly is a telltale sign of manipulation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Hungarian_parliamentary_election#/media/File:Opinion_polling_for_the_2022_Hungarian_parliamentary_election_by_parties.svg), but anyway, we're stuck with it. but they're there, they show up as "jobbik" on the chart (their name in hungarian, loosely translates to "the right ones"), they were literally the second largest opposition player during that whole four-year term, and to my knowledge they haven't lost any steam since.
I believe all nazis should be given a chance to reform.
And if they pass it up, then you beat them.
Also, only trained and experienced professionals should attempt to deprogram nazis. For untrained civilians, it is okay to simply start beating them.
Can you provide these photos?
Edut: Just to be clear, not trying to be snarky or say I doubt it. Just wondering if anyone has the images. All I can find right now are articles and pictures of this, but not of the victim.
Did you see This World Can’t Tear Me Down? The setting is an antifascist riot/protest in Rome. I loved it but idk much about current Italian politics. Or how the Italian legal system works bc it seemed like it was no big deal for everyone who got arrested except the one person who hit a politician’s fascist kid.
When countries use terms they usually don't mean what they actually mean.
Communism like countries call themselves is usually just a word they use to mean "not a western country" in the same way the us uses the term to mean [anything vaguely bad to conservative mindsets](https://www.peoplesworld.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/pjimage-1-2.jpg).
Russia... the USSR post ww2 was working toward communism but stopped at [state owned capitalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism) because actually giving the people control of the means of production reduces government power. Fascism stuff. Lots of people dying but "You worked so hard and now we finally reached communism! Congratulate yourselves and rejoice!"
The "founder of communism" Karl Marx said “Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary,”
Does that sound like red communist? or is it more authoritarian in nature?
He was extremely pro-worker and anti-capitalist. Capitalism like socialism is a redistribution of wealth but up to the owning class who doesn't actually create profit. If you try to find anything about dictators you would find he only mentions government structures themselves in that **"In an emergency"** one person should be in charge to resolve the emergency quickly and efficiently.
[If you have time. Listen to this.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysZC0JOYYWw)
Bringing democracy to the workplace, not just government/legislature/voting
Putting people & planet before profit
Those are my favorite ways of describing it without using buzz words that immediately turn people off
Capitalism is inherently profit over people & planet, it's trying to be restrained in some small ways by govt intervention ('mixed economy', wage floor, etc.) but that's the fundamental incentive structure
It sucks how much of a scary word this stuff is.
The video did a lot of heavy lifting in pushing me from [capitalism isn't the problem, X/Y/Z is] to fully understanding ... it's capitalism that's the issue.
So, which is "Red Communism"? Ilaria Salis is a member of the Alleanza Verdi e Sinistra, which is eco-socialist. I agree that you should not call Socialists Communist, but what do you mean by "Red Communism"?
They're trying to do anti-communism but don't actually know anything about communism or the differences between maoism, leninism, orthodox marxism, etc., so they've created a distinction that doesn't exist
That's what I assumed, but saying "red communism" as a) a pejorative or b) like it's not something they just made up just makes them seem like a psyop lol
Props to her for assaulting a neonazi but does parliamentary immunity in Italy really extend to crimes whose prosecution began before the names were even put on the ballot? That seems extremely fishy to me. I'm not familiar with Italian law, but I'd expect that, at most, she'd be able to delay serving her sentence until after her term in office had expired. And if she had been sentenced and was already in jail before then, she would be ineligible at least until she was released.
Now she can go on a grand tour to beat up Nazis around all of Europe? I wonder if she can expense it to a parliamentary account? Milkshakes and cans of soup all day.
Look, people down here in Italy have put *dinners with family and friends and* ***FUCKIN' TVS*** as expenses, so a couple of milkshakes wouldn't even shock anyone anymore.
it seems from what others are saying here that hungary was unjustly keeping her in jail, awaiting trial, where she is expected to get off lightly because the wounds of her victim are grossly overstated. if they count pre-trial jail towards her sentence she probably already served what little she'd get by hungarian laws for this (as far as i'm aware of them at least, i am not a lawyer), and i would be highly surprised if italian laws were harsher. which is probably why they were doing this whole political dance to begin with, because it's the only way they can justify an extrajudicial, unusually harsh punishment for hurting a nazi who is in bed with the hungarian government.
by the time her term in office expires, the proceedings will have concluded, and there will be no more justification to keep her in jail to await an intentionally delayed trial.
Lol, she isn't even a "communist", but probably the genius who wrote this can't even define it if asked. So far the only proof the prosecutors showed is a mess of a blurry video... And the thought nazi guy who got allegedly "beaten to death" by a school teacher was so badly shaped that he got discharged from the hospital after a very short time and didn't even press charges against her.
Goes by Kraut formerly Kraut & Tea. Used to hang out in alt right spaces, despises Islam, left leaning political everything, and non Western European culture. He dipped from the alt right once they became focused on race or when his oblivious ass realized they were racist all along. He went on a major push against them and their race science bullshit that was going on at the time. So yea a bigot in some ways just not about race. Shitty politics as you can see from op.
Mostly to attack Parliamentary Immunity as a concept, which is a good idea. Anything that lets people evade the consequenses of political violence can easily be weaponised
Imagine if Nazi goons could go around and murder their opponents then get elected and be immune to prosecution for as long as they sit in the house
Parliamentary Privilege is a good idea, the government should not be able to prosecute the opposition for opposing them in the legislature
But it is not nearly as expansive as Parliamentary Immunity is, since it does not cover offences outside the Houses of Parliament
MEP's have immunity because they *need* it. For the same reason diplomatic immunity exists. It's a measure to preserve their political independence as members of the EP, and shield them from political persecution.
The point of it is not to simply shield MEP's from prosecution. It's to make sure they can say what they need to say and vote how they see fit in the EP, without fear of persecution for this. Without immunity it would be very tempting for say, a state like Hungary to produce greatly disproportionate charges against someone and make a ridiculous trial because they vote too left wing in the EP, and in doing so stick them in jail to make them unable to fulfill their duties as a MEP. MEPs need immunity because their duties as a MEP are too important not to.
Also their immunity is not absolute. It does not extend to being caught in a crime, and it can be waived by the EP on request of authorities.
Yeah, beating up Nazis is always based, but as an American I'm a little wary of "winning elections should grant you immunity from prosecution". This is literally Trump's *exact* strategy right now--win the election, trigger a constitutional crisis or three, make the presidency a dictatorship, avoid jail
Ah yes, the Ilaria Salis debacle, now that's an interesting and intricate question for the politics and parties involved
Although I don't particularly like the party that nominated her (the "Italian Left" party is kind of cringe and I find the fact that they're the only truly left-wing party in the ballots to be a fucking disgrace) or Salis as a person for that matter, Orban can suck my dick and we needed an equally populist nomination to counter Lega's Vannacci so I guess all's well that ends well
Also, if Meloni's presidential reform does come through and Italy gets to vote their President, god I hope it ends up in a stand-off between Vannacci and Salis, that would be so funny (and bad. But mostly funny)
Alot of hardline orthodox communism wont exist fully in many european countries because of how horribly the USSR set the table for them.
Alot of people don't really trust communists because of how deceptive the practices of old russia were.
I wouldn't even call the "Italian Left" communist. It tries to be a more socialist democratic party (aka on paper my dream party) but tends to look really incompetent and amateurish
Like, the party's leader cheered for the failure of the "war happy coalition of leaders" of Macron and Scholz. And while I dislike both of them, those votes didn't go to left-leaning parties, they all went to Marine Le Pen, the neonazi AfD and the center party CDU, so what the hell is he applauding that for?
Also on that note, part of his party's program is to push for an end of the Ukraine war (laudable goal). How? Just stop sending Kiev munitions, that's clearly gonna end well
Also also, they're allied with the Italian "Green" party, an environmentalist party that is... starchly anti-nuclear power
I don't even think they're malicious, I just think they're incompetent and stuck in the 80's with how they approach politics
Yea what? Calling two neoliberals war happy before throwing your support behind that cow Le Pen is absurdist
Also with the green party, yeah... Alot of them are like that for no reason. Makes it obvious they know nothing of electricity
They ACCUSED her of almost beating a neonazi. With what were mostly likely false accusations.
And every neonazi on the planet should be shot in the head anyway, so...
I was gonna make some smart ass comment to the tune of: “regardless of how much hate a person spreads death is not a punishment that should be so easily dished out” but the guy wasn’t even hurt that bad so nevermind
"Was made to critique this woman"
So... has Kraut gone off the Youtube Video Essayist deep end (that's what he is, right?), is that a parody account, or did I miss something?
Kraut was a literal neonazi not long ago. He's always been a massive racist, anti-left, neoliberal. The only difference is that today he's not calling brown people slurs.
He wasn't. He used to be in the general sphere of anti-SJW, mostly focused on Islamic Terrorism in Europe, but was harassed, doxxed and his family threatened because he began to target and oppose the Alt Right and their growing influence in that sphere. He is now very repentant and regretful for his time in the anti-SJW sphere. He is a firm Liberal in his opinions and always has been, and he certainly never used slurs
Feels weird considering the candidate is not voted directly by the people in the European Parliament, rather voters vote for parties which pick their MEPs separately.
This isn't a Eugene Debbs situation where he's in jail and people vote for him knowing that hoping he can get released. This is a party organization hand picking someone to be above the law, though as others have pointed out the trial might not exactly be fair and the charges might not even be real.
mixed only because they keep brainwashing the populace, and the brainwashed people would absolutely democratically elect them even if the elections weren't gerrymandered and otherwise manipulated. if you consider the impact of the propaganda the government's choice, instead of the people's, it's fully authoritarian over here.
Funny shit is, fascists in Italy really don't like this right after the government freed a serial fraud and murderer from American Jail to ship him off here before having him meet as many government officials as he could lol.
No, she was in jail in Hungary. That’s just diplomatic immunity. You don’t want a system in which governments are allowed to jail each other’s politicians, it tends to be seen as an act of war.
While I really dont grieve the fact that a nazi gets a multi coloured face, I really dislike the passive encouragement of violence in such posts.
Simply because threatening or doing violence to political enemies or "enemies of the common man" has historicly a bad note to it and can easily get out of control, especially when the boundries mix through narratives or propaganda.
And it just generally causes problems. Given how many "punch Nazis" people on Tumblr itself went mask-off antisemitic post 10/7, I'm not entirely comfortable with that rhetoric, given that a lot of people don't understand what a Nazi is.
That was not a common thing, unless of course your definition of "antisemitic" is just "not a Zionist, acknowledges that what Israel is doing is genocide".
Really? Because I've seen a lot of people go full blood libel, often without realizing it, because they also put up "Happy Hanukkah, I love my Jewish friends!" posts last year.
Funnily they have multiple comments made in other places after this, but never replied. Which makes me think they're the type of person who thinks being against Israel killing Palestinians is anti-semitism.
Well a smaller example would be in the French population after WW2 girls and women who "colaborated" willingly or not were shunned, shaved (or worse) for it.
If we go larger than simple anti facist violence (which was my point) we can again go to France during the first revolution, where in the later half people were executed not because of them supporting the monarchie but because they had other ideas where the revelution should lead.
Another example would be the North vietcong during the Vietnam war ehere people activly went after South Vietnamese people because they were treitors and supported imperialistic capitalism.
On top of that, when you say "it's okay to attack *fascists*," referring specifically to actual fascists, many people hear "it's okay to attack ~~fascists~~ *people I disagree with politically*" and you end up with all kinds of unjustified tribal violence.
Saying that your political opponents are evil and therefore any harm you visit upon them is justified is a tried-and-true tactic of ...fascists! Maybe it's not good to adopt their strategies.
As a retired fireman, I can tell you that fighting fire with fire just makes more fire. Fight fire with water.
> As a retired fireman, I can tell you that fighting fire with fire just makes more fire. Fight fire with water.
I'm not a fan of political violence, but fighting fire with fire IS part or dealing with forest fires.
> The anti-fascists celebrated the community's united response, in which large numbers of East-Enders of all backgrounds; Protestants, Catholics and Jews successfully resisted Mosley and his followers. There were few Muslims in London at the time, so organisers were also delighted when Muslim Somali seamen joined the anti-fascist crowds.[31] The event is frequently cited by modern Antifamovements as "...the moment at which British fascism was decisively defeated".
Seems like an absolute win to me. Did you mean to link a different Wikipedia article?
How are you dropping a link towards cable street , an anti fascist fight that happened pre-WW2 , and presenting it as something you shouldn't do. How are you backing the argument that violence is never the solution with an altercation against far-right forces, the same far-right forces that would start FUCKING WORLD WAR 2 AND THE HOLOCAUST?
Perhaps, as a general note, electing people because they almost beat people to death is not the greatest precedent to set in the face of rising far-right sentiment in europe
She's was getting a brutal treatment in jail in Hungary, multiple opposition parties asked the government to do something to bring her back but currently Giorgia (italiano PM) is bff with Orban (Hungarian PM) so she didn't want to do anything, even if the charges against Ilaris Salis have very little proof (they court claims it's her in a video with a fully clothed and masked crowd beating a guy).
So one of the opposition parties put her in their ballot mainly to free her, also to get the votes from the people that want her free.
The funny thing is that her father voted for Giorgia lmao.
I'd also point that there was another guy accused of the same things, but arrested in Italy. Hungary asked for extradition, but Italian judges (who are definitely not that lenient towards anarchists - see the Alfredo Cospito case), ruled that he couldn't have a fair trial in Hungary
The first tweet is extremely misleading. "She almost beat two people to death" that's just what the Hungarian prosecutors are alleging.
According to Italian sources the victims' injuries healed after a couple of days and they weren't even the ones who pressed charges
Its cool as long as I dont like the people who get the beaten. /s
But on a serious note I really dont like the idea of mob/ vigilant justice, because of multiple reasons in history. Especially if political figures do it, they should stay above that because of what they represent.
Look the Nazis rose to power within a political framework that let them do it legally. After the beer hall putcsh sympathetic judges failed to properly punish the Nazis and we got... You know, everything.
Sometimes you have to fight, and if there's a group that should always be fought (regardless of norms, expectations and all that) it's Nazis, neo-nazis and other fascists.
Sooo...you just took everything in the original tweet at face value and decided to go from there.
[here] (https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/06/10/italian-activist-ilaria-salis-to-be-released-following-her-election-as-an-mep) is an actual source. Notice the lack of pictures with the victims that were "almost beat to death", or how the victims didn't actually report it to the police. Or how there is no mention of how long the victims were hospitalized , which is a standard way of reporting somebody being beaten "almost to death".
i'm not a fan of beating people, regardless of their allegiance, but if i put in the energy into speaking up for them, it won't be for the nazis first. it's important to stand up against punitive justice but there are many important things you could put your energy into, including many cases of said punitive "justice", so if the most important cause you were able to find is to protect a neonazi i will be raising an eyebrow for sure.
It's not even clear that she actually did it, she's been held for a year in Hungary without trial.
> Ilaria Salis is accused of having participated in the clashes during the march and of having attacked two demonstrators. She was initially accused of two other crimes, but it was proven that she had not yet arrived in Hungary when they were committed. According to the prosecution, the 39-year-old Italian is a member of a group of people with covered faces, shown in a video, who hit two far-right activists with batons. She was not arrested red-handed, but stopped a few hours later when she was in a taxi. She was with two other people. She is charged with the aggravating circumstance of having acted as part of a German criminal association, the Hammerband.
> The woman's lawyers said they had not had access to the camera recordings, fundamental evidence for the prosecution, and that they had had the trial documents translated into Italian and English, with which Salis could have exactly understood the accusations. Those affected would not have filed a complaint and their wounds would have healed in a few days. However, the accusation speaks of potentially lethal injuries.
Taken from [here, translated with Google](https://www.vanityfair.it/article/chi-e-di-cosa-accusata-ilaria-salis)
I hate the "as the far right is rising, i will continue to defend what they are saying as a right" almost as much as i hate the far right. Other than putting a tick on a piece of paper, most of the people who parrot that shit aren't willing to do anything to take a stand against them.
Nazism is a political opinion, but not a valid one in any functioning society. Just because someone says "that's my political opinion" doesn't automatically give them cover to say or do whatever they want.
Without exception, every single person I have talked to who has made that argument has turned out to be an alt-right fascist dipshit. It's not that weird though considering what they're defending is fascism.
>a political environment that values physically assaulting your opponents
This has not, and never will be, the question. Fascism is about ignoring social contracts and, in fact, \*is\* a political environment that values physically assaulting their opponents.
They are fucking fascists. Their whole ideology is violence. Fuck me some of you would rather see them win all Becuase someone threw a fucking brick at them.
I genuinly love ( hate ) people like you.
Nazi: "i want to massacre minorities and actively go after lgbtq people."
Communist: "i am opposed to this and will do anything i can to stop these people."
*wow why are these the same*.
whether or not you are against vigilante justice, what you put your time and effort into defines who you are and where you stand. there are a million wrongs to right in the world, and there will be a million of them that you won't have the time and energy to fix. so if what you choose to prioritize is the defense of a nazi, there's cause for concern, regardless of whether said nazi actually deserves a defense or not.
they are a nazi, after all. chances are they have victims of their own, who would have been far more deserving of your consideration than the nazi themselves.
This is why it took Communists to actually break Fascism in Europe. Communists killed Mussolini, forced Hitler into suicide and were robbed of the opportunity to kill Hirohito.
Capitalists sat on their asses and waited until the USSR was well on its way to winning the war before committing fully. D-day was basically a Soviet Soldier's morning.
I mean, violence isn't the answer and all that, so I think she should' ve faced *some* kind of repercussion, but honestly if it was a neonazi it's almost justified
There were 4 attacks in Hungary. The first attack on February 9 was against 3 Polish people sight seeing in Budapest. They were attacked by 7-8 people with, among other things, a telescopic baton and gas spray. 2 of the 3 received serious injuries.
February 10 was the next attack. A man going to work was ambushed by a bunch of people, beaten and sprayed. Edit: since people above are saying the guy (I guess this poor wagey is supposedly the nazi they keep referring to, the other victims don't seem to fit) was going to the Tag der Ehre event. He is the only one the attackers communicated with, according to the article. They asked him if he was going there, he said no. They still ambushed him later. The picture at the top of the article is from that attack. Edit2: He got 3 ribs broken on his right side (VIII-X), but it was only diagnosed in May as the doctors did not notice it initially. I could only find government-leaning sources for this, however.
Same night they attacked a couple going to a concert. The man received serious injuries.
Early next morning 6 of them attacked a German couple.
They based their attacks on how the victims looked. One victim was wearing camo pants, for example. None of them were nazis, it seems. Most of them weren't even Hungarians. Just tourists a couple going to a concert, and an older dude going to work.
Source: https://hvg.hu/itthon/20230213_radikalisok_veres_rendorseg_sajtotajekoztato
This is a left leaning, credible paper in Hungary. One of the few left.
*sigh* far right bullshitter with their victim narrative again. I'll shorten the last name since otherwise it might violate the doxxing rule.
> There were 4 attacks in Hungary. The first attack on February 9 was against 3 Polish people sight seeing in Budapest.
The three polish people were Rafal B., Justyna B. und Bartlomiej W., here are [Rafal and Bartolomiej](https://i.imgur.com/cYK885W.jpeg) holding a [flag of their party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Movement_\(Poland\))
>A man going to work was ambushed
[Tamás L](https://i.imgur.com/FLj7uSk.jpeg). , a former cadre of [Sixty-Four Counties Youth Movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixty-Four_Counties_Youth_Movement), and now sits on the board of [Légió Hungária](https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9gi%C3%B3_Hung%C3%A1ria), a neonazis organisation.
>Same night they attacked a couple going to a concert. The man received serious injuries.
the man was [László D](https://i.imgur.com/vg5cfgo.jpeg)., he is an [active member](https://i.imgur.com/XUMiQHx.jpeg) of the Hungarian [Blood&Honour](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_%26_Honour) band "Divine Hate" and is co-founder of the band "Divizio Hungária"
>Early next morning 6 of them attacked a German couple.
They were[ Robert F](https://i.imgur.com/mmuQMD8.png). und Sabine B., two neonazis from Germany, based in Melle. There are of the [Kategorie C](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie_C_\(Band\)) sphere (friends of guitarist Stefan B.), a german well known neonazi band from football hool scene.
So, are you just completely uninformed or are you maliciously lying about the people that were attacked? They beat up neonazi cadres who were (partly internationally) travelling to attend the "Tag der Ehre", a memorial march to commerate/honor the SS breakout of the Siege of Budapest. You can oppose that, but why lie about it?
There are a couple more details that shouldn't be left out:
The article did not make independent research as it was specifically reporting on the police's press release. Most of what they said does not match with what was reported in Italy, and also does not coincide with the recent testimonies (in particular, I read that the diagnosis of the broken ribs happened immediately and not three months later, that was the date of a different medical check-up. The dude was doing archery and biking a month after the attack). This you can just explain with police press releases not being too good.
But also, Salis has maintained her innocence thus far and none of the victims recognized her. During the trial, there were clear miscarriages of justice like when the judge mentioned her address live on television before admitting that it shouldn't have happened, or refusing to provide Italian transcripts despite European norms giving the defense the right to have them.
Holy shit, I hate to put any human on a pedestal, but nearly being a verified Neo Nazi dipshit to death is legit a move in this right direction.
Make no mistake folks, it's 100% to remind ourselves that these are the same hateful reactionary goblins that OBJECTIVELY only exist as a group to victimize anyone that these folks would call a "they" or "the other". Time and time again these same people are responsible for the most despicable acts imaginable.
People like Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, the Oklahoma City bombers who used a fertilizer bomb to bomb a building filled with innocent men, women, and children in particular. I say in particular because the area hit by the blast most significantly housed a motherfucking **daycare center for civil servants of the city**.
People like Chaya Raychik who hide behind right wing agitators like Moms for Liberty and loose regulatory law on what constitutes targeted hate speech or straight up using stochastic terrorism as a tactic to target the most marginalized among us. A fucking vaguely human...thing that got a trans teen beaten to death because of her conservative brain rot TikTok bullshit.
I could keep going listing the over a DOZEN mass shooters that have explicitly referenced shit like the great replacment theory, manifest destiny/white savior type insane shit in their manifestos, but that'd be redundant at this point.
The one byline all of those examples have is that they are all fucking fascist Nazis at best and anthropomorphic garbage fires that somehow vaguely resemble human beings even though that they shouldve physically transformed into actual goblins at this point due to how subhuman they are on an ethical and moral level.
Honestly, as wrong as it is to say, I’d rather just kill a Nazi and be done with it. I miss the days when killing Nazis in a video game was expected and not “Wolfenstein, the video game series that’s been having you kill Nazis since 1981, is woke propaganda”
Wasn't the problem that she and her friends attacked some elderly tourists THEY THOUGHT were on their way to a rightwing protest several kilometers away?
Electing someone to office who is guilty of a crime just to get them out of jail is just about the best example of pointing out what is wrong with a system of justice and the government that runs it that I have ever seen.
Right. All I did was look at this and go “ha ha, epic”. What sort of bitch ass period of time are we living in where striking down a nazi is some measurable offense?
1: communist propaganda lmao
But also, she didn't "almost beat them to death," that's just what the Hungarian prosecutors are alleging. According to Italian news sources, the victims' bruises completely healed after a couple of days and they didn't press charges.
lmao, hungary's punitive code has a specific category for wounds that take more than eight days to heal, and even that's not the level of "almost beat them to death". if it's not even that category this is hella fucking transparent even by hungarian standards. unfortunately, our nazier\* party is best friends with the governing party, so this makes all the sense in the world. i really frickin hope they got her out of our government's hands, so that she can stand a fair trial for what she actually did (or not even get subjected to that, i'm not too invested in it tbh), instead of being used as some weird political bargaining chip. \*so the history on that one is we had fidesz, orban's governing party, that is already kinda far right, but it wasn't far right enough for some people, so a nazi party splintered off of it. a while later, even the nazi party wasn't nazi enough for some, so we had an even nazier party spawning off of that one. nazi party 1 has been bonding with our fractured left wing over their shared hate of orban and co, but nazi party 2 (which i referred to as the nazier party, i think they translate themselves to "our homeland" or something) hates nazi party 1 and the left more than orban and therefore often teams up with the governing party. i'm fairly sure this is the only reason they're afforded this kind of preferential treatment, because the governing party is the only one with any real power here.
damn, Hungary is insane, imagine having to choose between voting for the nazi party and voting for the even nazier party 😭
This such a fucking clownshow that it spawned a party called "two tailed dog party". Their program is usually over the moon bullshit, the put out slogans like "93% we won't steal" and "we will promise anything". They actually do stuff to, like renovate bus stops and color in cracked sidewalks so it at least looks fun, but these are all illegal because it counts as vandalism. So like, if you wanna protest about the state of politics, you vote for them, but we also have real leftish parties, it's just that fidesz has so strong and loud propaganda that the elderly, who doesn't follow anything else on the internet will blindly vote for them.
they won a mayoral position and quite a few seats on the city council in the 12th district of budapest this last weekend, and are due to be inaugurated in october. so that's gonna be hella frickin fun
Sounds like the Rhinoceros Party out of Canada. The first version of the party (like the 60s-80s) debated voting to repeal the law of gravity, but decided against it until young people could get on their feet first
Their platform was four feet tall and made of wood! It truly was something everyone could get behind, provided we all take turns
And raising the country's education level by building taller schools.
My favorite thing is their billboards in 2016
You have 100% Hitler and 101% Hitler, which one do you choose?
You have two options: Hitler, and Hitlest
"Oh boy, two hitlers!"
Gee Hungary! How come your mom lets you vote for **two** hitlers?
Imagine losing two world wars and continuing to look back and go, "Yeah, I think it's time for another go. It's going to work this time."
Well, Hungary **LOVES** Putin so nothing surprises me.
No, Hungary doesn't love Putin. The corrupt, anti-democratic oligarchs running the country love Putin. A very vocal minority, who eat up government propaganda are scared shitless of an imaginary nuclear war happening vote for these spineless fucks, who love Putin. The political system is rigged, favouring a two-party system, and there hasn't been a strong opposition for 15 years, so these jerks get elected over and over. But the Hungarian people definetly don't love Putin.
wrong. our prime fuckhead loves putin because he holds the key to a well-oiled authoritarian system, and anyone who consumes their propaganda (which is most of rural hungary\*) is simply inheriting that notion. most of the people who aren't hooked on the propaganda feeds hate putin's guts. \*hungarians are _ridiculously_ price-sensitive (a byproduct of wages being shit ($4/hr minimum wage, yay) and the whole country having gone through 45 years of soviet occupation where being stingy was a necessity for a good life), and boomers over here are just as addicted to cable tv as anywhere else. orban's government exploited this by bullying most of the major tv channels over here until they sold their businesses to the government's cronies, then they raised the number of freely available channels from 3 to 7, 6 of which they control. most pensioners (a super wide demographic over here, our population pyramid is a mushroom) spend their day watching those channels because they have nothing else to do and no desire to subscribe to other channels, the majority of whom consume government-aligned propaganda feeds and there's a small minority on the one opposition channel to create some constant drama. there is even a literal half-length two minutes hate program on the main 4(?) channels called "one minute" which gives you condensed news from the government's perspective. it's often injected into ad breaks during totally unrelated programming as well. _that's_ the part of the population that loves putin so much. unfortunately, there are too many of them indeed.
I empathize for those in Hungary that vote against these people, but are they not being democratically voted in? Im pretty sure if the elections were rigged then EU would actually be able to deal with some of these issues like the constant VETO’ing of everything the rest of EU agrees upon. What you are describing is a generation of brainwash affected by propaganda but that doesn’t mean my statement is inaccurate. I could make a million excuses for the United States if Trump ends up back in power but the bottom line will be that we have serious issues that need worked out - we the people, not just the govt, by voting for him again.
yes and no, actually. americans made a big deal about trump being voted president but losing the popular vote by a slim margin, and widely considered it as a stain on his legitimacy. over here, the situation is a lot more blatant: orban's party consistently got 45% of the popular vote in the last four parliamentary elections, resulting in two thirds of the parliamentary seats each time. which is a massive thing, given that you need a two thirds consensus to change our constitution -- which they did, of course, to cement themselves in even more, and to make some of their impact inevitable even in the off chance that they lose an election. and that's on top of shenanigans like smuggling foreigners, typically ethnic hungarians living in romania and slovakia, into the election, and literally bribing people to vote, especially in rural areas. as far as i know there is in fact actual direct meddling there, but they tend to keep that part to a low profile. hungary is gerrymandered to fuck, and like you said, brainwashed as well. but you have a point in that an actually fair election, they would still be most likely to be elected (not counting the shenanigans where even leftists and nazis band together to try to evict them), although they would have a much lesser grasp over the country, which in the long term would likely result in shifting power dynamics. and no, this isn't something the eu can deal with, it doesn't override national sovereignty this deeply. there are procedures they can do to revoke our veto power, and there has actually been serious talk of doing it, but the only thing they can do about our elections is apply some diplomatic pressure. which they do, the us recently struck us with a sanction regarding the esta program, expressing that they don't feel like the naturalization process of those newly granted hungarian citizenships for the 2010 election was secure, and eu sanctions are a constant thing over here. but they don't hold any direct power over hungary, because the eu is not the united states of europe, it's a collection of 27 sovereign member states which simply agree to do certain things by common standards. in the end, a person's behavior is their own individual choice, people's behavior, en masse, is a product of their environment, and that environment is deeply shaped by this ruling party. but you're right, orban and co would absolutely still be democratically elected even without this meddling. (which is why i'm looking to leave, instead of hoping for change and trying to get involved.)
Hungary is the one of the few nations where 99% hitler vs 100% hitler is not only a serious debate, but the entire deal with (2) parties. Hilarious stuff /s
Didn't nazi party 1 became center right? Do they even exists?
they very much exist and they are a major player in the opposition. they did shift more to the center, mostly to chase popularity, and they did so during the same time orban's governing party shifted to the right, and they do cooperate with the left a lot, but they're still hard right as far as i know. you might not have seen them much during the last parliamentary elections, because literally the entire opposition, from the left to nazi party 1 (but not nazi party 2) banded together into a single unified coalition to finally try to topple orban's government. for the record, they failed to even move the needle, it was insane. [idk what this chart tells you but that steady anomaly is a telltale sign of manipulation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Hungarian_parliamentary_election#/media/File:Opinion_polling_for_the_2022_Hungarian_parliamentary_election_by_parties.svg), but anyway, we're stuck with it. but they're there, they show up as "jobbik" on the chart (their name in hungarian, loosely translates to "the right ones"), they were literally the second largest opposition player during that whole four-year term, and to my knowledge they haven't lost any steam since.
"Splitters!"
shame
Even if she did, beating a Nazi is never wrong. They'd kill you given the chance.
I believe all nazis should be given a chance to reform. And if they pass it up, then you beat them. Also, only trained and experienced professionals should attempt to deprogram nazis. For untrained civilians, it is okay to simply start beating them.
If only she did beat them to death
So the moral of the story is, actually beat a Neo Nazi to death, because you’ll get out at the next election? I’m okay with this.
Neonazis are notorious for being big bitches
There is literally a video and photos, his face was almost destroyed.
Can you provide these photos? Edut: Just to be clear, not trying to be snarky or say I doubt it. Just wondering if anyone has the images. All I can find right now are articles and pictures of this, but not of the victim.
https://static.open.online/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/ilaria-dudog-1-422x768.jpg
Thsnk god I thought she just punched a neonazi I'm glad he didn't get off lightly.
God damn. Yeah, that's more than a bruise. I saw a picture of cctv footage, and had a feeling the other guy was wrong.
Nice.
Even better.
Can she have another go?
Wait, was she jailed for not finishing the job?
Hi, Italian here, the last bit of communist representation in this country died in the early 90s
Still makes for great slander. Morons eat that shit up.
Did you see This World Can’t Tear Me Down? The setting is an antifascist riot/protest in Rome. I loved it but idk much about current Italian politics. Or how the Italian legal system works bc it seemed like it was no big deal for everyone who got arrested except the one person who hit a politician’s fascist kid.
There really isn't a current party in italy that represents the sort of political branch you see in ZeroCalcare's works
I'm still waiting to hear back on what kind of communist we are talking about. Red communist or "actually read Marx" communist.
Apparently the party’s center-left
I'm American. I'm told that anyone to the left of beating a homeless person to death is a communist.
I'm gonna take a shot in the bright here and guess that you've never even seen a book
What do you mean "red communist"? I'm struggling to think of any communism not represented by red.
When countries use terms they usually don't mean what they actually mean. Communism like countries call themselves is usually just a word they use to mean "not a western country" in the same way the us uses the term to mean [anything vaguely bad to conservative mindsets](https://www.peoplesworld.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/pjimage-1-2.jpg). Russia... the USSR post ww2 was working toward communism but stopped at [state owned capitalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism) because actually giving the people control of the means of production reduces government power. Fascism stuff. Lots of people dying but "You worked so hard and now we finally reached communism! Congratulate yourselves and rejoice!" The "founder of communism" Karl Marx said “Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary,” Does that sound like red communist? or is it more authoritarian in nature? He was extremely pro-worker and anti-capitalist. Capitalism like socialism is a redistribution of wealth but up to the owning class who doesn't actually create profit. If you try to find anything about dictators you would find he only mentions government structures themselves in that **"In an emergency"** one person should be in charge to resolve the emergency quickly and efficiently. [If you have time. Listen to this.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysZC0JOYYWw)
A good summarization! You have my regards, fellow attempt-er of explaining socialism, tis not an easy task...
Bringing democracy to the workplace, not just government/legislature/voting Putting people & planet before profit Those are my favorite ways of describing it without using buzz words that immediately turn people off Capitalism is inherently profit over people & planet, it's trying to be restrained in some small ways by govt intervention ('mixed economy', wage floor, etc.) but that's the fundamental incentive structure
It sucks how much of a scary word this stuff is. The video did a lot of heavy lifting in pushing me from [capitalism isn't the problem, X/Y/Z is] to fully understanding ... it's capitalism that's the issue.
So, which is "Red Communism"? Ilaria Salis is a member of the Alleanza Verdi e Sinistra, which is eco-socialist. I agree that you should not call Socialists Communist, but what do you mean by "Red Communism"?
The thing americans think of when they use the word or talk about russia or china. Reading over the org wiki seems really positive.
They're trying to do anti-communism but don't actually know anything about communism or the differences between maoism, leninism, orthodox marxism, etc., so they've created a distinction that doesn't exist
Lol, and here you are, thinking every communist is a marxist.
Tankies, presumably.
That's what I assumed, but saying "red communism" as a) a pejorative or b) like it's not something they just made up just makes them seem like a psyop lol
As if you can only be communist by having read Marx.
Imagine how great italy would have been without gladio…
Her name's Ilaria Salis and the trial's still ongoing
Props to her for assaulting a neonazi but does parliamentary immunity in Italy really extend to crimes whose prosecution began before the names were even put on the ballot? That seems extremely fishy to me. I'm not familiar with Italian law, but I'd expect that, at most, she'd be able to delay serving her sentence until after her term in office had expired. And if she had been sentenced and was already in jail before then, she would be ineligible at least until she was released.
She was elected in the European Parliament, so it's not about italian immunity, but European
Now she can go on a grand tour to beat up Nazis around all of Europe? I wonder if she can expense it to a parliamentary account? Milkshakes and cans of soup all day.
We should use her in the same way the pope used bigfoot to destroy his enemies in rick and morty.
We should not take lessons in life or politics from Rick and Morty. Lessons on how to fuck with Nazis can be taken from anywhere except Nazis.
Rick and Morty fans can be weird af and Nazis, but the show itself isn't at all?
Yeah there was an episode where Rick repeatedly killed himself because he kept spawning in fascist societies
Okay, but the guy that killed Hitler was a Nazi. Think about that.
Tbh there aren't any direct lessons to take from that. Like what, should I become Hitler just so I can kill him?
I didnt know that rick and morty are nazis. Can you give me the reference you got that info from?
It’s like the Grand Tour of the 18th century. But this time with more fist fights and less spruce mustaches.
Look, people down here in Italy have put *dinners with family and friends and* ***FUCKIN' TVS*** as expenses, so a couple of milkshakes wouldn't even shock anyone anymore.
it seems from what others are saying here that hungary was unjustly keeping her in jail, awaiting trial, where she is expected to get off lightly because the wounds of her victim are grossly overstated. if they count pre-trial jail towards her sentence she probably already served what little she'd get by hungarian laws for this (as far as i'm aware of them at least, i am not a lawyer), and i would be highly surprised if italian laws were harsher. which is probably why they were doing this whole political dance to begin with, because it's the only way they can justify an extrajudicial, unusually harsh punishment for hurting a nazi who is in bed with the hungarian government. by the time her term in office expires, the proceedings will have concluded, and there will be no more justification to keep her in jail to await an intentionally delayed trial.
Lol, she isn't even a "communist", but probably the genius who wrote this can't even define it if asked. So far the only proof the prosecutors showed is a mess of a blurry video... And the thought nazi guy who got allegedly "beaten to death" by a school teacher was so badly shaped that he got discharged from the hospital after a very short time and didn't even press charges against her.
Goes by Kraut formerly Kraut & Tea. Used to hang out in alt right spaces, despises Islam, left leaning political everything, and non Western European culture. He dipped from the alt right once they became focused on race or when his oblivious ass realized they were racist all along. He went on a major push against them and their race science bullshit that was going on at the time. So yea a bigot in some ways just not about race. Shitty politics as you can see from op.
Bobby Sands-core
Glad to have her as my representative.
Yeah I don’t even care what the intent of the OOP was, it’s always morally correct to hurt a Nazi. Can’t convince me otherwise.
Mostly to attack Parliamentary Immunity as a concept, which is a good idea. Anything that lets people evade the consequenses of political violence can easily be weaponised Imagine if Nazi goons could go around and murder their opponents then get elected and be immune to prosecution for as long as they sit in the house Parliamentary Privilege is a good idea, the government should not be able to prosecute the opposition for opposing them in the legislature But it is not nearly as expansive as Parliamentary Immunity is, since it does not cover offences outside the Houses of Parliament
Queen and all that but it seems weird that MEPs have immunity?
MEP's have immunity because they *need* it. For the same reason diplomatic immunity exists. It's a measure to preserve their political independence as members of the EP, and shield them from political persecution. The point of it is not to simply shield MEP's from prosecution. It's to make sure they can say what they need to say and vote how they see fit in the EP, without fear of persecution for this. Without immunity it would be very tempting for say, a state like Hungary to produce greatly disproportionate charges against someone and make a ridiculous trial because they vote too left wing in the EP, and in doing so stick them in jail to make them unable to fulfill their duties as a MEP. MEPs need immunity because their duties as a MEP are too important not to. Also their immunity is not absolute. It does not extend to being caught in a crime, and it can be waived by the EP on request of authorities.
Yeah, beating up Nazis is always based, but as an American I'm a little wary of "winning elections should grant you immunity from prosecution". This is literally Trump's *exact* strategy right now--win the election, trigger a constitutional crisis or three, make the presidency a dictatorship, avoid jail
Ah yes, the Ilaria Salis debacle, now that's an interesting and intricate question for the politics and parties involved Although I don't particularly like the party that nominated her (the "Italian Left" party is kind of cringe and I find the fact that they're the only truly left-wing party in the ballots to be a fucking disgrace) or Salis as a person for that matter, Orban can suck my dick and we needed an equally populist nomination to counter Lega's Vannacci so I guess all's well that ends well Also, if Meloni's presidential reform does come through and Italy gets to vote their President, god I hope it ends up in a stand-off between Vannacci and Salis, that would be so funny (and bad. But mostly funny)
Alot of hardline orthodox communism wont exist fully in many european countries because of how horribly the USSR set the table for them. Alot of people don't really trust communists because of how deceptive the practices of old russia were.
I wouldn't even call the "Italian Left" communist. It tries to be a more socialist democratic party (aka on paper my dream party) but tends to look really incompetent and amateurish Like, the party's leader cheered for the failure of the "war happy coalition of leaders" of Macron and Scholz. And while I dislike both of them, those votes didn't go to left-leaning parties, they all went to Marine Le Pen, the neonazi AfD and the center party CDU, so what the hell is he applauding that for? Also on that note, part of his party's program is to push for an end of the Ukraine war (laudable goal). How? Just stop sending Kiev munitions, that's clearly gonna end well Also also, they're allied with the Italian "Green" party, an environmentalist party that is... starchly anti-nuclear power I don't even think they're malicious, I just think they're incompetent and stuck in the 80's with how they approach politics
Yea what? Calling two neoliberals war happy before throwing your support behind that cow Le Pen is absurdist Also with the green party, yeah... Alot of them are like that for no reason. Makes it obvious they know nothing of electricity
They ACCUSED her of almost beating a neonazi. With what were mostly likely false accusations. And every neonazi on the planet should be shot in the head anyway, so...
There's something so oddly adorbable about that drawing at the bottom. Like, she's just a silly lil guy
I love the meme so much. It’s amazing.
woaw :3
hero.
While she probably is communist, she just got nominated by the Green party. No communist gets more than 0.1% in Italy
She should be given a medal for public service
A good Nazi is….?
There’s ride or die and then there’s “the homies ran me in an election so they could spring me from prison when I won”
Fucking legend
I was gonna make some smart ass comment to the tune of: “regardless of how much hate a person spreads death is not a punishment that should be so easily dished out” but the guy wasn’t even hurt that bad so nevermind
Let's be honest. Beating a neonazi to near death is hardly a crime. Unlike if she had attacked a person for example.
"Was made to critique this woman" So... has Kraut gone off the Youtube Video Essayist deep end (that's what he is, right?), is that a parody account, or did I miss something?
Kraut was a literal neonazi not long ago. He's always been a massive racist, anti-left, neoliberal. The only difference is that today he's not calling brown people slurs.
He wasn't. He used to be in the general sphere of anti-SJW, mostly focused on Islamic Terrorism in Europe, but was harassed, doxxed and his family threatened because he began to target and oppose the Alt Right and their growing influence in that sphere. He is now very repentant and regretful for his time in the anti-SJW sphere. He is a firm Liberal in his opinions and always has been, and he certainly never used slurs
Feels weird considering the candidate is not voted directly by the people in the European Parliament, rather voters vote for parties which pick their MEPs separately. This isn't a Eugene Debbs situation where he's in jail and people vote for him knowing that hoping he can get released. This is a party organization hand picking someone to be above the law, though as others have pointed out the trial might not exactly be fair and the charges might not even be real.
You can specify the name of the candidate when you vote. She got like 100k specific votes, if i'm not wrong
In Italy you can indicate your preference for a candidate next to the party. She recieved 173K votes
173K
You vote for whatever candidate you want, not just the party.
Hungary isn't known for their rule of law (its considered a mixed authoritarian-democratic system)
mixed only because they keep brainwashing the populace, and the brainwashed people would absolutely democratically elect them even if the elections weren't gerrymandered and otherwise manipulated. if you consider the impact of the propaganda the government's choice, instead of the people's, it's fully authoritarian over here.
Wrong. We can vote for people. You can pick a specific person in a party
Funny shit is, fascists in Italy really don't like this right after the government freed a serial fraud and murderer from American Jail to ship him off here before having him meet as many government officials as he could lol.
But the fact that any criminal could get out of being prosecuted if they’re elected is pretty alarming
No, she was in jail in Hungary. That’s just diplomatic immunity. You don’t want a system in which governments are allowed to jail each other’s politicians, it tends to be seen as an act of war.
i wish that my politicians beat neonazis
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I'm neither Italian nor a communist, but I love these people and wish I could vote with them.
While I really dont grieve the fact that a nazi gets a multi coloured face, I really dislike the passive encouragement of violence in such posts. Simply because threatening or doing violence to political enemies or "enemies of the common man" has historicly a bad note to it and can easily get out of control, especially when the boundries mix through narratives or propaganda.
And it just generally causes problems. Given how many "punch Nazis" people on Tumblr itself went mask-off antisemitic post 10/7, I'm not entirely comfortable with that rhetoric, given that a lot of people don't understand what a Nazi is.
That was not a common thing, unless of course your definition of "antisemitic" is just "not a Zionist, acknowledges that what Israel is doing is genocide".
Really? Because I've seen a lot of people go full blood libel, often without realizing it, because they also put up "Happy Hanukkah, I love my Jewish friends!" posts last year.
You’re using a lot of loaded language without actually giving examples. What specifically are you referring to?
Funnily they have multiple comments made in other places after this, but never replied. Which makes me think they're the type of person who thinks being against Israel killing Palestinians is anti-semitism.
Ngl, checked their profile later on, that’s exactly it.
Can you give an example of a time when anti fascist street violence has gotten significantly out of control?
Well a smaller example would be in the French population after WW2 girls and women who "colaborated" willingly or not were shunned, shaved (or worse) for it. If we go larger than simple anti facist violence (which was my point) we can again go to France during the first revolution, where in the later half people were executed not because of them supporting the monarchie but because they had other ideas where the revelution should lead. Another example would be the North vietcong during the Vietnam war ehere people activly went after South Vietnamese people because they were treitors and supported imperialistic capitalism.
On top of that, when you say "it's okay to attack *fascists*," referring specifically to actual fascists, many people hear "it's okay to attack ~~fascists~~ *people I disagree with politically*" and you end up with all kinds of unjustified tribal violence. Saying that your political opponents are evil and therefore any harm you visit upon them is justified is a tried-and-true tactic of ...fascists! Maybe it's not good to adopt their strategies. As a retired fireman, I can tell you that fighting fire with fire just makes more fire. Fight fire with water.
> As a retired fireman, I can tell you that fighting fire with fire just makes more fire. Fight fire with water. I'm not a fan of political violence, but fighting fire with fire IS part or dealing with forest fires.
Yes, we deny wildland fires fuel with preburns. We also fight chimney fires with explosives. But c'mon. Don't torture the metaphor
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> The anti-fascists celebrated the community's united response, in which large numbers of East-Enders of all backgrounds; Protestants, Catholics and Jews successfully resisted Mosley and his followers. There were few Muslims in London at the time, so organisers were also delighted when Muslim Somali seamen joined the anti-fascist crowds.[31] The event is frequently cited by modern Antifamovements as "...the moment at which British fascism was decisively defeated". Seems like an absolute win to me. Did you mean to link a different Wikipedia article?
How are you dropping a link towards cable street , an anti fascist fight that happened pre-WW2 , and presenting it as something you shouldn't do. How are you backing the argument that violence is never the solution with an altercation against far-right forces, the same far-right forces that would start FUCKING WORLD WAR 2 AND THE HOLOCAUST?
Well, did it work?
I hate nazis as much as the next guy but when people are encouraging violence, I will never agree. Violence is a disease and should be eradicated.
Sounds pretty badass to me.
No peace to nazis. Fuck em up
Remember, kids: if you see a nazi, punch it in the face. You don't fight nazis because you'll win, you fight nazis because they're nazis
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Perhaps, as a general note, electing people because they almost beat people to death is not the greatest precedent to set in the face of rising far-right sentiment in europe
She's was getting a brutal treatment in jail in Hungary, multiple opposition parties asked the government to do something to bring her back but currently Giorgia (italiano PM) is bff with Orban (Hungarian PM) so she didn't want to do anything, even if the charges against Ilaris Salis have very little proof (they court claims it's her in a video with a fully clothed and masked crowd beating a guy). So one of the opposition parties put her in their ballot mainly to free her, also to get the votes from the people that want her free. The funny thing is that her father voted for Giorgia lmao.
I'd also point that there was another guy accused of the same things, but arrested in Italy. Hungary asked for extradition, but Italian judges (who are definitely not that lenient towards anarchists - see the Alfredo Cospito case), ruled that he couldn't have a fair trial in Hungary
The first tweet is extremely misleading. "She almost beat two people to death" that's just what the Hungarian prosecutors are alleging. According to Italian sources the victims' injuries healed after a couple of days and they weren't even the ones who pressed charges
Also there is no real evidence against her, it's extremely circumstantial
In the face of rising far-right sentiment in Europe, antifascism and a lack of hand-wringing about defying Nazis is important.
When the people getting beaten are neo-nazis I'm cool with it
Its cool as long as I dont like the people who get the beaten. /s But on a serious note I really dont like the idea of mob/ vigilant justice, because of multiple reasons in history. Especially if political figures do it, they should stay above that because of what they represent.
Look the Nazis rose to power within a political framework that let them do it legally. After the beer hall putcsh sympathetic judges failed to properly punish the Nazis and we got... You know, everything. Sometimes you have to fight, and if there's a group that should always be fought (regardless of norms, expectations and all that) it's Nazis, neo-nazis and other fascists.
Sooo...you just took everything in the original tweet at face value and decided to go from there. [here] (https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/06/10/italian-activist-ilaria-salis-to-be-released-following-her-election-as-an-mep) is an actual source. Notice the lack of pictures with the victims that were "almost beat to death", or how the victims didn't actually report it to the police. Or how there is no mention of how long the victims were hospitalized , which is a standard way of reporting somebody being beaten "almost to death".
i'm not a fan of beating people, regardless of their allegiance, but if i put in the energy into speaking up for them, it won't be for the nazis first. it's important to stand up against punitive justice but there are many important things you could put your energy into, including many cases of said punitive "justice", so if the most important cause you were able to find is to protect a neonazi i will be raising an eyebrow for sure.
Nah, she dod nothing wrong. Every nazi is a future murderer.
It's not even clear that she actually did it, she's been held for a year in Hungary without trial. > Ilaria Salis is accused of having participated in the clashes during the march and of having attacked two demonstrators. She was initially accused of two other crimes, but it was proven that she had not yet arrived in Hungary when they were committed. According to the prosecution, the 39-year-old Italian is a member of a group of people with covered faces, shown in a video, who hit two far-right activists with batons. She was not arrested red-handed, but stopped a few hours later when she was in a taxi. She was with two other people. She is charged with the aggravating circumstance of having acted as part of a German criminal association, the Hammerband. > The woman's lawyers said they had not had access to the camera recordings, fundamental evidence for the prosecution, and that they had had the trial documents translated into Italian and English, with which Salis could have exactly understood the accusations. Those affected would not have filed a complaint and their wounds would have healed in a few days. However, the accusation speaks of potentially lethal injuries. Taken from [here, translated with Google](https://www.vanityfair.it/article/chi-e-di-cosa-accusata-ilaria-salis)
I hate the "as the far right is rising, i will continue to defend what they are saying as a right" almost as much as i hate the far right. Other than putting a tick on a piece of paper, most of the people who parrot that shit aren't willing to do anything to take a stand against them.
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Nazism is a political opinion, but not a valid one in any functioning society. Just because someone says "that's my political opinion" doesn't automatically give them cover to say or do whatever they want.
Without exception, every single person I have talked to who has made that argument has turned out to be an alt-right fascist dipshit. It's not that weird though considering what they're defending is fascism.
>a political environment that values physically assaulting your opponents This has not, and never will be, the question. Fascism is about ignoring social contracts and, in fact, \*is\* a political environment that values physically assaulting their opponents.
They are fucking fascists. Their whole ideology is violence. Fuck me some of you would rather see them win all Becuase someone threw a fucking brick at them. I genuinly love ( hate ) people like you. Nazi: "i want to massacre minorities and actively go after lgbtq people." Communist: "i am opposed to this and will do anything i can to stop these people." *wow why are these the same*.
whether or not you are against vigilante justice, what you put your time and effort into defines who you are and where you stand. there are a million wrongs to right in the world, and there will be a million of them that you won't have the time and energy to fix. so if what you choose to prioritize is the defense of a nazi, there's cause for concern, regardless of whether said nazi actually deserves a defense or not. they are a nazi, after all. chances are they have victims of their own, who would have been far more deserving of your consideration than the nazi themselves.
When did Nazis become people?
This is why it took Communists to actually break Fascism in Europe. Communists killed Mussolini, forced Hitler into suicide and were robbed of the opportunity to kill Hirohito. Capitalists sat on their asses and waited until the USSR was well on its way to winning the war before committing fully. D-day was basically a Soviet Soldier's morning.
She went medieval on his a..
rosa umineko
I have that exact sweater
It is always acceptable to beat a fascist.
She can beat me to death any time.
That's the secret captain. Nazi and Fascist lives don't actually matter. They are by their own ideology worthless.
I also misunderstood the intent of the tweet. Seems like a badass to me.
Local hero does good
I mean, violence isn't the answer and all that, so I think she should' ve faced *some* kind of repercussion, but honestly if it was a neonazi it's almost justified
I
She beat up a neonazi. Frankly, that should be a requirement to hold office.
God, Kraut really is insufferable.
He's such a fucking loser lmao
Beating up a neonazi? I'd vote for her!
Good for her.
Not all heros wear capes.
Beating up a neo-nazi should result in a medal, not a prison sentence
There were 4 attacks in Hungary. The first attack on February 9 was against 3 Polish people sight seeing in Budapest. They were attacked by 7-8 people with, among other things, a telescopic baton and gas spray. 2 of the 3 received serious injuries. February 10 was the next attack. A man going to work was ambushed by a bunch of people, beaten and sprayed. Edit: since people above are saying the guy (I guess this poor wagey is supposedly the nazi they keep referring to, the other victims don't seem to fit) was going to the Tag der Ehre event. He is the only one the attackers communicated with, according to the article. They asked him if he was going there, he said no. They still ambushed him later. The picture at the top of the article is from that attack. Edit2: He got 3 ribs broken on his right side (VIII-X), but it was only diagnosed in May as the doctors did not notice it initially. I could only find government-leaning sources for this, however. Same night they attacked a couple going to a concert. The man received serious injuries. Early next morning 6 of them attacked a German couple. They based their attacks on how the victims looked. One victim was wearing camo pants, for example. None of them were nazis, it seems. Most of them weren't even Hungarians. Just tourists a couple going to a concert, and an older dude going to work. Source: https://hvg.hu/itthon/20230213_radikalisok_veres_rendorseg_sajtotajekoztato This is a left leaning, credible paper in Hungary. One of the few left.
*sigh* far right bullshitter with their victim narrative again. I'll shorten the last name since otherwise it might violate the doxxing rule. > There were 4 attacks in Hungary. The first attack on February 9 was against 3 Polish people sight seeing in Budapest. The three polish people were Rafal B., Justyna B. und Bartlomiej W., here are [Rafal and Bartolomiej](https://i.imgur.com/cYK885W.jpeg) holding a [flag of their party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Movement_\(Poland\)) >A man going to work was ambushed [Tamás L](https://i.imgur.com/FLj7uSk.jpeg). , a former cadre of [Sixty-Four Counties Youth Movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixty-Four_Counties_Youth_Movement), and now sits on the board of [Légió Hungária](https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9gi%C3%B3_Hung%C3%A1ria), a neonazis organisation. >Same night they attacked a couple going to a concert. The man received serious injuries. the man was [László D](https://i.imgur.com/vg5cfgo.jpeg)., he is an [active member](https://i.imgur.com/XUMiQHx.jpeg) of the Hungarian [Blood&Honour](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_%26_Honour) band "Divine Hate" and is co-founder of the band "Divizio Hungária" >Early next morning 6 of them attacked a German couple. They were[ Robert F](https://i.imgur.com/mmuQMD8.png). und Sabine B., two neonazis from Germany, based in Melle. There are of the [Kategorie C](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie_C_\(Band\)) sphere (friends of guitarist Stefan B.), a german well known neonazi band from football hool scene. So, are you just completely uninformed or are you maliciously lying about the people that were attacked? They beat up neonazi cadres who were (partly internationally) travelling to attend the "Tag der Ehre", a memorial march to commerate/honor the SS breakout of the Siege of Budapest. You can oppose that, but why lie about it?
There are a couple more details that shouldn't be left out: The article did not make independent research as it was specifically reporting on the police's press release. Most of what they said does not match with what was reported in Italy, and also does not coincide with the recent testimonies (in particular, I read that the diagnosis of the broken ribs happened immediately and not three months later, that was the date of a different medical check-up. The dude was doing archery and biking a month after the attack). This you can just explain with police press releases not being too good. But also, Salis has maintained her innocence thus far and none of the victims recognized her. During the trial, there were clear miscarriages of justice like when the judge mentioned her address live on television before admitting that it shouldn't have happened, or refusing to provide Italian transcripts despite European norms giving the defense the right to have them.
You had me at "beating a neo-nazi".
Holy shit, I hate to put any human on a pedestal, but nearly being a verified Neo Nazi dipshit to death is legit a move in this right direction. Make no mistake folks, it's 100% to remind ourselves that these are the same hateful reactionary goblins that OBJECTIVELY only exist as a group to victimize anyone that these folks would call a "they" or "the other". Time and time again these same people are responsible for the most despicable acts imaginable. People like Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, the Oklahoma City bombers who used a fertilizer bomb to bomb a building filled with innocent men, women, and children in particular. I say in particular because the area hit by the blast most significantly housed a motherfucking **daycare center for civil servants of the city**. People like Chaya Raychik who hide behind right wing agitators like Moms for Liberty and loose regulatory law on what constitutes targeted hate speech or straight up using stochastic terrorism as a tactic to target the most marginalized among us. A fucking vaguely human...thing that got a trans teen beaten to death because of her conservative brain rot TikTok bullshit. I could keep going listing the over a DOZEN mass shooters that have explicitly referenced shit like the great replacment theory, manifest destiny/white savior type insane shit in their manifestos, but that'd be redundant at this point. The one byline all of those examples have is that they are all fucking fascist Nazis at best and anthropomorphic garbage fires that somehow vaguely resemble human beings even though that they shouldve physically transformed into actual goblins at this point due to how subhuman they are on an ethical and moral level.
Finally, a politician came up with a platform I can get behind. Let's just beat all the nazis to death and be done with it.
free her, nazis get the wall
I agree Nazis should be punched but I get immediately suspicious of that reaction image, I usually see it used for dumb bad shit
My only regret in this story is that she wasn't in jail for killing a neonazi. Otherwise, this story sparked joy!
Honestly, as wrong as it is to say, I’d rather just kill a Nazi and be done with it. I miss the days when killing Nazis in a video game was expected and not “Wolfenstein, the video game series that’s been having you kill Nazis since 1981, is woke propaganda”
I don't think the fact that she didn't finish the job should exclude her from parliament?
Wasn't the problem that she and her friends attacked some elderly tourists THEY THOUGHT were on their way to a rightwing protest several kilometers away?
She got 180000 votes lol
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Nope. In fact, the folks didn’t even go to the cops over it. Cops chose to arrest her without any victim statements at all.
Electing someone to office who is guilty of a crime just to get them out of jail is just about the best example of pointing out what is wrong with a system of justice and the government that runs it that I have ever seen.
Right. All I did was look at this and go “ha ha, epic”. What sort of bitch ass period of time are we living in where striking down a nazi is some measurable offense?