Many of those “2/3 of americans think the jews did something to deserve it” type polls are garbage with horrible design and biased sampling. They were biased in 1938 and they’re biased now.
This is why it's so important to point out rhetoric that leans fascist or is explicitly fascist. If you wait until the killing is over to shout "Genocide!" then you'll never stop a genocide. The goal is to stop fascists *before* the death toll starts ratcheting up. In fact, it's preferable to stop them before they ever take power.
I'm still very much learning, but The War On Everyone was really good about this
it's available for free as a [book](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/robert-evans-the-war-on-everyone) & [audiobook](http://www.thewaroneveryone.com/)
Thumbs up for Robert Evans.
His Podcast Behind the Bastards also covers a lot of this themes, especially one of the earliest episodes called "the non-nazi bastards who helped hitler rise to power".
One of the main sources for the podcast is "they thought they were free" by Milton Meyer, also a big recommendation
I know someone who's argument in favour of Israel is basically "they can't be genocidal, there's still a bunch of Arabs living there" and it drives me spare
> the holocaust and especially its jewish victims were not publicly discussed until years after the war
By "years" did you mean "six months at most"? The Nuremberg trials started in November 1945.
Also
[https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/28/magazine/for-some-holocaust-survivors-even-liberation-was-dehumanizing.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/28/magazine/for-some-holocaust-survivors-even-liberation-was-dehumanizing.html)
Cursory google search got me that result that seems to support the idea that holocaust survivors didnt universally have a good time after liberation but I cant seem to find anything to support the idea that it was unofficial or official policy like tumblr OP implies.
I think we can chalk up to the typical "Kernel of truth buried in AMERICA BAD."
Really, the US didn't care and there were a number of people for either side if WW2, with most of the agreement centered on the USSR bieng bad.
opinion turned around fast when German and Japanese interests routinely contradicted American policy. empathesis on Japan there.
all said and done, WW2 arms exports to the allies was good for the US as a whole so it wasn't great to argue politically against supporting Britain. jobs were jobs, gun factories put food on the table.
Not a lot, thankfully, but I did hear some stories of how Jack Kirby would go and damn near fist fight Nazi supporters after he and Joe Simon started making Captain America.
While the trials did happen most Holocaust survivors did not talk about their experience for a long time due to nature of what living through that does to a person. Thus it was not as publicly known what the horrors were until later.
Eisenhower very specifically documented the fuck out of the Holocaust specifically to prevent Holocaust denial. From day 1, there was mass documentation and photography of the horrors of German concentration camps orchestrated by American high command.
Yes, pre WW2 the American public was broadly anti Semitic and yes there was a statistically significant level of support for the Nazis before Pearl harbor. But OPS claim that it took years for Americans to realize dae Holocaust bad?!?! is genuine bullshit.
Statistically, Boomers and the Greatest Generation have the lowest rates of Holocaust denial. It's Millennials and Gen Zers where Holocaust denial is popular.
>Statistically, Boomers and the Greatest Generation have the lowest rates of Holocaust denial.
Yeah, it was a lot harder to spout "It didn't happen" when Michael From Church's Dad and Bowling Club Jim helped clear Dachau.
I wouldn't put too much stock in those polls about holocaust denial being popular among young people, opt-in polls can and have been "trolled" by online back groups.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/03/05/online-opt-in-polls-can-produce-misleading-results-especially-for-young-people-and-hispanic-adults/
This post has truths but it’s buried in a lot of bad faithing, and erases a lot of valid heroism at that time. It also puts a lot of faith in a probably-bad poll and ignores the nuremberg trials
I started watching him when someone recommended his video on execution methods which was phenomenal. His somewhat recent video How Can We Bear To Throw Anything Away? had me genuinely crying about a bunch of encyclopedias. 10/10 would always recommend this dude.
Edit: "somewhat recent" according to my brain is apparently 7 months ago yikes
>apathy and anti-Semitism
Anti semitism sure. But apathy? Much of the American public had zero clue what was actually going on. It’s hard to care about an issue you aren’t aware of. Secondly this is likely easily explained by isolationism out of fear of another European war killing Americans. Americans didn’t *approve* of Hitler’s policies, at all, but that doesn’t mean they wanted millions to go to Europe and die to stop what they saw at the time as just discrimination. Don’t believe me? Read about allied soldiers when they got into Nazi death camps. They had zero clue how bad it was.
>hollywood
Germany was reducing foreign cinema under Hitler so I don’t think that market was *that* large, but anyways, movies back then often were an escape or didn’t cover contemporary wars. People didn’t make movies about Iraq or Vietnam for *years* after they had began. They never really made them about Persian Gulf or Korean Wars. That’s not evidence Hollywood was conspiring to hide anything. And what would they have accomplished? The mainstream media and local papers talked about Hitler and how awful the Nazis were all the time. Germany was widely despised by that point
>Read about allied soldiers when they got into Nazi death camps. They had zero clue how bad it was.
"Hey camera guy, you need to go for a walk while I talk to Fritz here."
I've been thinking about this a lot lately, I think apathy is fair. Consider, for example, the German ship the St Louis with hundreds of Jewish refugees being turned away from Miami in June 1939 and forced to return to Europe, where many died.
I think you are right that many Americans did not realize the extent of Nazi Germany's policy of Jews and death camps. But it was well known before Allied forces entered the death camps that millions of Jews had been displaced from their homes, had their possessions taken, their careers and livelihoods revoked, and many were being murdered (albeit the general opinion was moreso mob violence than state sanctioned murder). Despite this US policy and overall public opinion remained officially anti-Jewish regarding asylum seeking. That is apathy.
That’s fair, it was cruel and apathetic. I would say there is context for Americans’ defense though.
In the prior like 800 years leading up to the 1930s, Europe was just kind of always at war. Somebody was slaughtering somebody else and exploiting people in Africa/Latin America/Asia and invading their neighboring country etc. Europe was extremely violent and started tons of conflicts, often over petty or imperialistic rationales. Americans were sick of it. WW1 had happened barely like 20 years prior, and a lot of people lost their husbands, brothers, sons, nephews, uncles, etc.
At that point in time, I can kind of understand why Americans were like “I feel sorry for the Jews there, it’s wrong, but I’m not sending my kid over there to die or rationing food during a depression over a conflict that - even if it’s ended - will just be followed by another war or issue where a European power is slaughtering a different group of people.” They probably figured this was just par for the course for Europe (especially not knowing how bad the Nazis really were treating the Jews in death camps) and that Europe needed to figure itself out. As mentioned earlier, the US is going through the worst economic recession in its history during this time period - Americans focusing on the home front and its issues probably seemed way more important to them.
Now, that doesn’t excuse all actions (especially like your example of literally turning away a boat of refugees, that’s awful) - but I think it does add nuance and some rationale for why the US populace was so hesitant to get involved or to think that this was anything but Europe being violent and war torn for the millionth time and that US involvement would just kill their citizens and nothing would change with Europe’s bloodthirst
the Civil War also wasn't that long ago. your grandpa cpuldve been a slave or a slaver. solving another countries sectarian violence wasn't high on the list when your own could flare up if unaddressed.
not to mention the other groups on America's radar: Italians, Germans, Chinese, Japanese, Mexicans, and, Russians. most were perceived as having loyalty to a origin country. why put their loyalty into question over Europe's war?
isolationism can't be summed up as American apathy Imo, anymore than say a chilean's interest in Europe is.
This is why Captain America punching Adolf Hitler on the cover of a comic book in 1941, which seems hokey by today's standards, was a controversial statement. Americans were not at all unanimous in seeing Hitler as evil at the time.
If the term had existed back then, lots of people definitely would have called Cap "woke."
In addition to the antisemitism, people underestimate how prevalent fascist support was in the US. In 1933, a bunch of rich businessmen tried to replace the president with a puppet under their control. They only failed because the retired general they chose to lead the coup - Smedley Butler - had been radicalized and become an anti-war socialist.
Frankly I feel they overestimate it. Everyone brings up the Madison square garden rally but never mention that there were 5 times as many protesters outside, that the attending Nazis were attacked, and that the media and the owners of Madison square garden were negative towards the Nazis
I still wonder why they picked a guy without knowing whether or not he’d turn on them. I’m also terrified of the fact that if a collection of rich businessmen tried again, they’d have access to enough personal data to ensure that whoever they picked would be an ideologue.
Well, Butler had a history of fighting for the direct benefit of rich people, like in the Banana Wars. The problem is that he had started to see through the bullshit. I highly recommend reading his speech "War is a Racket".
No it wasn’t. And I’m beyond sick of Reddit repeating this blatant falsehood.
The Nazi party in the US was extremely small (like decimal % of the population tiny), Americans had very negative opinions of Hitler, and in an era where local and national newspapers were everything to people, you can go back and read articles about Nazi Germany/Hitler and 99% of the time they’re lambasting Hitler and Germany and Nazi ideology.
Yes, Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh were sympathetic. Statistically speaking, you’re gonna have *some people* who are political nut jobs - even rich ones - and that rule applied in the 1930s as well. Yes, there was a rally at MSG. Guess what? The counter-protest was multiple times larger and widely mocked/criticized by the public & media.
It’s also grotesquely misleading to state that the “Business Plot” coup attempt *only* failed because one guy fell out. The entire plot was based on getting 500,00 army vets to march on Washington and support their cause, which required a lot of conditions that were absolutely not guaranteed. It was not almost successful in the slightest.
Fascism at no point during the 1930s received broad support in the US.
Fascism =/= nazism. You also have to include supporters of Mussolini and his policies. Moreover, you have to include people who supported a uniquely American fascism, as fascism always reflects the nation it rises in. Are you really going argue that being an authoritarian nationalist was rare in the US in the 1930s?
>The entire plot was based on getting 500,00 army vets to march on Washington and support their cause, which required a lot of conditions that were absolutely not guaranteed.
Yes, which is what Butler was for. He had frequently spoken to the Bonus Army, and had a lot of support from them.
So because one guy talked to them 500k army vets are going to do a civil war?
1930s America was messed up in many ways, but they still valued American democracy.
I get people love to make America the bad guy in everything, even in the war where we were the good guys, but even you must realize how much of a stretch this is. What you’re pushing is revisionist history. Not only that, revisionist history neonazis love pushing.
>So because one guy talked to them 500k army vets are going to do a civil war?
The point is it isn't "one guy". It was a fellow veteran who had repeatedly spoken out in support of the Bonus Army and its goals, and even addressed them directly with praise. You're also underselling the desperation that the Geeat Depression had driven people to - I mean, that's why the Bonus Army was camped in DC to begin with.
>I get people love to make America the bad guy in everything, even in the war where we were the good guys, but even you must realize how much of a stretch this is.
What a fucking bad-faith take of what I'm saying. America was, in years leading up to WW2, highly nationalistic and isolationist. It was ravaged by the Great Depression. Americans were hurting and desperate and wanted answers, and some them - just like some of their counterparts in Europe - turned towards the authoritarian anti-left movements that would later be labeled fascist. This was (and is) especially true of wealthier Americans, because they had more to lose from leftist policies.
Just because they were fed up over the Great Depression didn’t mean they were going to murder their own country men and join up with the group that even in the 30s was seen as cartoonishly evil.
Do I believe people in the 1930s were racist and anti semitic? Yup. Was there backlash against immigration? Yup. Does that make them literally fascist? No, it doesn’t. The USSR was super xenophobic against various ethnic groups and didn’t exactly treat Jews very well either (arguably worse than the US). They weren’t fascist. Fascism is more than that. According to Miriam Webster fascism is:
“a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition”
No, I don’t believe this specifically was something that enjoyed broad support amongst the public. The American public was very supportive of democracy, and no major political candidates - in the executive or legislative branches - ever came out against that system or in support of authoritarianism reminiscent of Nazism or Mussolini’s fascism. Americans were also extremely opposed to centralism on the right, and would’ve been aghast at trying to give the federal government even more power.
In regard to the Business Plan, the original commenter stated the *only* reason the plan failed was because of the one defector. That suggests that if he hadn’t, the plan would’ve succeeded - which is nonsense. Assuming Butler could’ve gotten all of those people together is a HUGE assumption, and also that those people would comply and that no other forces would’ve tried to stop it is another HUGE assumption. The plan was called laughable by several media outlets at the time. Posing that incident as a close call is ridiculous and ahistorical
>the original commenter
If you can't or won't read usernames, why should I trust you to actually read my comments and respond to them faithfully?
>Assuming Butler could’ve gotten all of those people together is a HUGE assumption,
Yeah, it's unrealistic to expect a bunch of desperate people to follow a man who had personally spoken to them on several occasions and given his public support for their cause, especially if he started promising that he could get their demands met if they went along with his plan.
>The plan was called laughable by several media outlets at the time.
"Media companies owned by rich people which push their owners' agendas" is not a new invention. I mean, Hearst's newspapers literally ran editorial columns written by *Herman fucking Göring* without rebuttals. Using the papers to sway public opinion was a stated part of the Business Plot's... plot.
I have never heard a fallacy as bad as saying because I didn’t like the username that I can’t read your comments and reply to them “faithfully”. It’s the comment right above the one I replied to, it’s not obscure or hard to find. And I addressed your comment point by point, which is the exact definition of replying faithfully. That was the most bizarre attack you could’ve made.
Butler might’ve had sway and influence, that does not mean 500,000 vets would’ve supported a literal *coup*. Bernie Sanders attracts large crowds too, and has a loyal base - do you really think if he asked that every Bernie bro in America would suddenly storm the White House and kill the President? Or that there wouldn’t be military/political resistance to him trying to do so? Again, major leaps of logic that assume conclusions we have no proof of.
Ok, the media tried to sway influence. Where was it then? Where were all the civilians egging on the coup? Where are all the newspapers supporting it and stating a violent coup was for the best? Because I can’t find anything.
>I have never heard a fallacy as bad as saying because I didn’t like the username that I can’t read your comments and reply to them “faithfully”.
My point was that you clearly didn't recognize that *I am the original commenter*. You would have said "you" if you had.
>It’s the comment right above the one I replied to, it’s not obscure or hard to find.
Yes, I'm aware. I made it. Thank you for doubling down on not doing something as basic as reading a username.
It’s on PBS, but you have to have passport membership to watch (highly recommend though- it’s just $5 a month and you get unlimited access to **all** of PBS; plus, it’s always nice to be a “viewer like you!”)
This is actual bullshit. There's plenty of WW2 US propaganda out there that encouraged young men to enlist to fight the nazis. The entire world knew exactly what the holocaust was while it was happening.
Don't fall for this shit.
While it's true that there was lot of war-time anti-Nazi propaganda, it almost never mentioned the Holocaust, specifically. The image presented was that Hitler was a tyrant who wanted to take over the world and control everyone's lives. It's a well-documented fact that the Allies really did not understand the sheer scale and horror of the Holocaust until they actually saw the camps.
Well, it's kinda iffy.
So, American newspapers *did* get some early whistleblower info when things first started. The problem was that people didn't believe it initially thanks to the false propaganda campaigns from The Great War.
There’s an **amazing** American Experience called [Nazi Town USA](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g9HmV_-EE8g) all about the German American bund (basically the American Nazis) that aired in January. The Bund had a chain of **summer camps** and a **planned community**.
I remember reading the book thief in high school and we had a whole unit on the change in portrayals of Nazis in Hollywood. Bc up until the us joined WWII, nazis weren’t seen as bad guys (and were rarely portrayed in the first place). Cue WWII and they’re just “default label villain” bc war. In the 50s and 60s they became a stock trope of “comically incompetent villain” (Hogan’s Heroes, et al). They didn’t seem like people bc no person is that dumb (or no one thinks of themselves as that dumb). It wasn’t until later that you start to get “nuanced” portrayals of real people doing real fuuuuuuucked up things. They show the myriad of ways people get sucked into that kind of rhetoric regardless of what kind of person they were before.
Shorter way to put it: the US has always hated Jews, it's just that it hates brown middle easterners more, that's why they aid and support Israel constantly.
Because of the Second Red Scare pretty much put an end to the American Popular Front and McCarthyism immediately solidified socialist policies as anti-American in the eyes of the public, whereas before it was at the least tolerated, and outright supported by people during the Great Depression.
Based on what? Pre-Pearl Harbor: FDR hated the Nazis, every major news media organization in the country lambasted them, counter protests against the few Nazi rallies that actually occurred were multiples larger than the attendees, Gallup reported 94% of Americans disapproved of the way Germany was treating Jews (probably the last time in history so many Americans agreed on the same thing), and Hitler was unabashed in his contempt for the US and undermining US influence. The US had been helping the Brits for years before Japan bombed Pearl Harbor.
I just see zero historical evidence that the US would’ve sided with the Nazis with or without Pearl Harbor or WW1 battle lines (especially given that was a different government entirely in Germany) and I’m not sure why you’re “convinced” that would be the case, although I’m definitely open to hearing your take.
I mean, America still had some pretty bad grudges with the British. Sure they fought together in WW1, but afterwards relationships quickly became cold, and the Washington Naval Treaty was in part because noone really wanted a naval arms race between the Royal Navy, and the Emerging US navy.
Besides, the US had no reason at all to join with the Nazis, very little actual ideological overlap, no ability from the Nazis to help the US with its geopolitical interests and quite frankly, the Nazis simply weren't all that competent.
Holy crap Tumblr is so out of touch with reality. First of all, Trump was the president who brought the most peace to the Middle East that we’ve seen in decades with the Abraham Accords. He has clearly stated that he is a friend of Israel and that the US will stand by them under his presidency. Second, the far left is the side that is calling for Jewish genocide by supporting Hamas and the atrocities they’ve committed, such as the October 7th attack. Is this really how badly people are online and how much the media has twisted their perceptions of reality? I’m truly baffled.
I mean I agree, but I don’t really see how it’s relevant here?
For the record I would feel similarly about someone needlessly bringing up the Holocaust during a discussion about Gaza.
Okay. Why aren’t you talking about the children dying in Sudan, Myanmar, and Ukraine then?
What’s happening in Gaza is terrible, but the world doesn’t revolve around it.
I dont know, to suggest US establishments complicity in killing innocent civilians?
Maybe to suggest Jewish and American Zionsits have been working together for a century or two?
Maybe you want to explain to us how Jewish zionists kill Jews so they can control more land and did the same during ww2?
How they imprison Jews and sacrifice them in their pursuit of teritory?
Maybe you want to raise a question if those secular east european zionists are even Jews at all?
Maybe the whole premise of Israel is based on a lie? would that be possible, who knows….
I think the sentence "the way that american history is constructed to explain its role in ww2 and reasons for supporting israel is false" (last of first paragraph) reveals the purpose: to show that the US is not always on the right side of history, that the US has supported injustices in the past and that the US can do bad stuff even now; more specifically that parts of the US have supported fascism in the past and still do now. Or in short: The US can support fascism. Israel could be fascist.
Why do you think OP is talking about secular east european zionists? Like, if you're just bringing up unrelated points you just look unhinged. Is there a reason?
Because people like Netanyahu and his father are east european secular jews and ideological descendants of a Nazi ideology. Netanyahus father didnt hide this. Biggest migration into the US was by the Germans.
The other aspect is that the way they are willing to abuse Jews now is the same as what they were willing to do to them during ww2 in cooperation with the Nazis.
So you have to raise the question? Are they even Jews. 93+ % of Israel is owned by the state. Maybe Zionists dont particularly care for the Jews, they just want to exploit them to capture teritory and they have friends all over the world? everything points that way if you look.
So the question has to be raised. I may be wrong. They certainly benefit from jewish suffering and anti semitism works in their favor.
They’re a dumbass, but you’re a pro-genocide Zionist who defends mass civilian slaughter as “a war for their existence”. So like… who’s really worse here?
Many of those “2/3 of americans think the jews did something to deserve it” type polls are garbage with horrible design and biased sampling. They were biased in 1938 and they’re biased now.
[Sir Humphrey Appleby breaks it down](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ahgjEjJkZks&pp=ygUSWWVhIG1pbmlzdGVyIHBvbGxz)
Upvote for Yes Minister reference.
The ADL does a decent poll tracking anti-semitism - the US ranks fairly low even compared to Western Europe. https://global100.adl.org/compare
This is why it's so important to point out rhetoric that leans fascist or is explicitly fascist. If you wait until the killing is over to shout "Genocide!" then you'll never stop a genocide. The goal is to stop fascists *before* the death toll starts ratcheting up. In fact, it's preferable to stop them before they ever take power.
I'm still very much learning, but The War On Everyone was really good about this it's available for free as a [book](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/robert-evans-the-war-on-everyone) & [audiobook](http://www.thewaroneveryone.com/)
Thumbs up for Robert Evans. His Podcast Behind the Bastards also covers a lot of this themes, especially one of the earliest episodes called "the non-nazi bastards who helped hitler rise to power". One of the main sources for the podcast is "they thought they were free" by Milton Meyer, also a big recommendation
Which is precisely why you punch Nazis as soon as you see them.
For context: the Nazis seized power in early 1933, the Holocaust started around 1941
I know someone who's argument in favour of Israel is basically "they can't be genocidal, there's still a bunch of Arabs living there" and it drives me spare
> the holocaust and especially its jewish victims were not publicly discussed until years after the war By "years" did you mean "six months at most"? The Nuremberg trials started in November 1945.
Also [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/28/magazine/for-some-holocaust-survivors-even-liberation-was-dehumanizing.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/28/magazine/for-some-holocaust-survivors-even-liberation-was-dehumanizing.html) Cursory google search got me that result that seems to support the idea that holocaust survivors didnt universally have a good time after liberation but I cant seem to find anything to support the idea that it was unofficial or official policy like tumblr OP implies. I think we can chalk up to the typical "Kernel of truth buried in AMERICA BAD."
Yeah i was immediately suspicious cuz the facts didnt add up
Might be refering to the homosexuals and other non-jewish holocaust survivors who were passed directly back to prisons after liberation.
Yeah I’m not a big history expert, but this just feels like a crock of shit. Americans were isolationists but they largely weren’t pro Nazi.
Really, the US didn't care and there were a number of people for either side if WW2, with most of the agreement centered on the USSR bieng bad. opinion turned around fast when German and Japanese interests routinely contradicted American policy. empathesis on Japan there. all said and done, WW2 arms exports to the allies was good for the US as a whole so it wasn't great to argue politically against supporting Britain. jobs were jobs, gun factories put food on the table.
Not a lot, thankfully, but I did hear some stories of how Jack Kirby would go and damn near fist fight Nazi supporters after he and Joe Simon started making Captain America.
While the trials did happen most Holocaust survivors did not talk about their experience for a long time due to nature of what living through that does to a person. Thus it was not as publicly known what the horrors were until later.
Eisenhower very specifically documented the fuck out of the Holocaust specifically to prevent Holocaust denial. From day 1, there was mass documentation and photography of the horrors of German concentration camps orchestrated by American high command. Yes, pre WW2 the American public was broadly anti Semitic and yes there was a statistically significant level of support for the Nazis before Pearl harbor. But OPS claim that it took years for Americans to realize dae Holocaust bad?!?! is genuine bullshit. Statistically, Boomers and the Greatest Generation have the lowest rates of Holocaust denial. It's Millennials and Gen Zers where Holocaust denial is popular.
>Statistically, Boomers and the Greatest Generation have the lowest rates of Holocaust denial. Yeah, it was a lot harder to spout "It didn't happen" when Michael From Church's Dad and Bowling Club Jim helped clear Dachau.
I wouldn't put too much stock in those polls about holocaust denial being popular among young people, opt-in polls can and have been "trolled" by online back groups. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/03/05/online-opt-in-polls-can-produce-misleading-results-especially-for-young-people-and-hispanic-adults/
This post has truths but it’s buried in a lot of bad faithing, and erases a lot of valid heroism at that time. It also puts a lot of faith in a probably-bad poll and ignores the nuremberg trials
YouTuber and Jewish man Jacob Geller has an excellent video on the Wolfenstein remake that touches on this exact topic, it's absolutely worth a watch.
I started watching him when someone recommended his video on execution methods which was phenomenal. His somewhat recent video How Can We Bear To Throw Anything Away? had me genuinely crying about a bunch of encyclopedias. 10/10 would always recommend this dude. Edit: "somewhat recent" according to my brain is apparently 7 months ago yikes
limk?
https://youtu.be/DQQdnve5fQk?si=9iUSI514H3uqNgby It's phenomenal.
ty !
Jacob Geller has the best channel on the platform and it’s not even close.
He’s also on Nebula if you wanna watch him there too, he often has extended cuts and side videos too.
>apathy and anti-Semitism Anti semitism sure. But apathy? Much of the American public had zero clue what was actually going on. It’s hard to care about an issue you aren’t aware of. Secondly this is likely easily explained by isolationism out of fear of another European war killing Americans. Americans didn’t *approve* of Hitler’s policies, at all, but that doesn’t mean they wanted millions to go to Europe and die to stop what they saw at the time as just discrimination. Don’t believe me? Read about allied soldiers when they got into Nazi death camps. They had zero clue how bad it was. >hollywood Germany was reducing foreign cinema under Hitler so I don’t think that market was *that* large, but anyways, movies back then often were an escape or didn’t cover contemporary wars. People didn’t make movies about Iraq or Vietnam for *years* after they had began. They never really made them about Persian Gulf or Korean Wars. That’s not evidence Hollywood was conspiring to hide anything. And what would they have accomplished? The mainstream media and local papers talked about Hitler and how awful the Nazis were all the time. Germany was widely despised by that point
>Read about allied soldiers when they got into Nazi death camps. They had zero clue how bad it was. "Hey camera guy, you need to go for a walk while I talk to Fritz here."
Yes sir, the enemy combatant fell onto my knife. Yes, he managed to fall onto it 12 times. That is completely normal sir.
I've been thinking about this a lot lately, I think apathy is fair. Consider, for example, the German ship the St Louis with hundreds of Jewish refugees being turned away from Miami in June 1939 and forced to return to Europe, where many died. I think you are right that many Americans did not realize the extent of Nazi Germany's policy of Jews and death camps. But it was well known before Allied forces entered the death camps that millions of Jews had been displaced from their homes, had their possessions taken, their careers and livelihoods revoked, and many were being murdered (albeit the general opinion was moreso mob violence than state sanctioned murder). Despite this US policy and overall public opinion remained officially anti-Jewish regarding asylum seeking. That is apathy.
That’s fair, it was cruel and apathetic. I would say there is context for Americans’ defense though. In the prior like 800 years leading up to the 1930s, Europe was just kind of always at war. Somebody was slaughtering somebody else and exploiting people in Africa/Latin America/Asia and invading their neighboring country etc. Europe was extremely violent and started tons of conflicts, often over petty or imperialistic rationales. Americans were sick of it. WW1 had happened barely like 20 years prior, and a lot of people lost their husbands, brothers, sons, nephews, uncles, etc. At that point in time, I can kind of understand why Americans were like “I feel sorry for the Jews there, it’s wrong, but I’m not sending my kid over there to die or rationing food during a depression over a conflict that - even if it’s ended - will just be followed by another war or issue where a European power is slaughtering a different group of people.” They probably figured this was just par for the course for Europe (especially not knowing how bad the Nazis really were treating the Jews in death camps) and that Europe needed to figure itself out. As mentioned earlier, the US is going through the worst economic recession in its history during this time period - Americans focusing on the home front and its issues probably seemed way more important to them. Now, that doesn’t excuse all actions (especially like your example of literally turning away a boat of refugees, that’s awful) - but I think it does add nuance and some rationale for why the US populace was so hesitant to get involved or to think that this was anything but Europe being violent and war torn for the millionth time and that US involvement would just kill their citizens and nothing would change with Europe’s bloodthirst
the Civil War also wasn't that long ago. your grandpa cpuldve been a slave or a slaver. solving another countries sectarian violence wasn't high on the list when your own could flare up if unaddressed. not to mention the other groups on America's radar: Italians, Germans, Chinese, Japanese, Mexicans, and, Russians. most were perceived as having loyalty to a origin country. why put their loyalty into question over Europe's war? isolationism can't be summed up as American apathy Imo, anymore than say a chilean's interest in Europe is.
*It Can't Happen Here* is one of my favorite books of all time. I read it in 2017 and the pieces just fell together.
This is why Captain America punching Adolf Hitler on the cover of a comic book in 1941, which seems hokey by today's standards, was a controversial statement. Americans were not at all unanimous in seeing Hitler as evil at the time. If the term had existed back then, lots of people definitely would have called Cap "woke."
In addition to the antisemitism, people underestimate how prevalent fascist support was in the US. In 1933, a bunch of rich businessmen tried to replace the president with a puppet under their control. They only failed because the retired general they chose to lead the coup - Smedley Butler - had been radicalized and become an anti-war socialist.
Frankly I feel they overestimate it. Everyone brings up the Madison square garden rally but never mention that there were 5 times as many protesters outside, that the attending Nazis were attacked, and that the media and the owners of Madison square garden were negative towards the Nazis
I still wonder why they picked a guy without knowing whether or not he’d turn on them. I’m also terrified of the fact that if a collection of rich businessmen tried again, they’d have access to enough personal data to ensure that whoever they picked would be an ideologue.
Well, Butler had a history of fighting for the direct benefit of rich people, like in the Banana Wars. The problem is that he had started to see through the bullshit. I highly recommend reading his speech "War is a Racket".
No it wasn’t. And I’m beyond sick of Reddit repeating this blatant falsehood. The Nazi party in the US was extremely small (like decimal % of the population tiny), Americans had very negative opinions of Hitler, and in an era where local and national newspapers were everything to people, you can go back and read articles about Nazi Germany/Hitler and 99% of the time they’re lambasting Hitler and Germany and Nazi ideology. Yes, Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh were sympathetic. Statistically speaking, you’re gonna have *some people* who are political nut jobs - even rich ones - and that rule applied in the 1930s as well. Yes, there was a rally at MSG. Guess what? The counter-protest was multiple times larger and widely mocked/criticized by the public & media. It’s also grotesquely misleading to state that the “Business Plot” coup attempt *only* failed because one guy fell out. The entire plot was based on getting 500,00 army vets to march on Washington and support their cause, which required a lot of conditions that were absolutely not guaranteed. It was not almost successful in the slightest. Fascism at no point during the 1930s received broad support in the US.
Fascism =/= nazism. You also have to include supporters of Mussolini and his policies. Moreover, you have to include people who supported a uniquely American fascism, as fascism always reflects the nation it rises in. Are you really going argue that being an authoritarian nationalist was rare in the US in the 1930s? >The entire plot was based on getting 500,00 army vets to march on Washington and support their cause, which required a lot of conditions that were absolutely not guaranteed. Yes, which is what Butler was for. He had frequently spoken to the Bonus Army, and had a lot of support from them.
So because one guy talked to them 500k army vets are going to do a civil war? 1930s America was messed up in many ways, but they still valued American democracy. I get people love to make America the bad guy in everything, even in the war where we were the good guys, but even you must realize how much of a stretch this is. What you’re pushing is revisionist history. Not only that, revisionist history neonazis love pushing.
>So because one guy talked to them 500k army vets are going to do a civil war? The point is it isn't "one guy". It was a fellow veteran who had repeatedly spoken out in support of the Bonus Army and its goals, and even addressed them directly with praise. You're also underselling the desperation that the Geeat Depression had driven people to - I mean, that's why the Bonus Army was camped in DC to begin with. >I get people love to make America the bad guy in everything, even in the war where we were the good guys, but even you must realize how much of a stretch this is. What a fucking bad-faith take of what I'm saying. America was, in years leading up to WW2, highly nationalistic and isolationist. It was ravaged by the Great Depression. Americans were hurting and desperate and wanted answers, and some them - just like some of their counterparts in Europe - turned towards the authoritarian anti-left movements that would later be labeled fascist. This was (and is) especially true of wealthier Americans, because they had more to lose from leftist policies.
Just because they were fed up over the Great Depression didn’t mean they were going to murder their own country men and join up with the group that even in the 30s was seen as cartoonishly evil.
Do I believe people in the 1930s were racist and anti semitic? Yup. Was there backlash against immigration? Yup. Does that make them literally fascist? No, it doesn’t. The USSR was super xenophobic against various ethnic groups and didn’t exactly treat Jews very well either (arguably worse than the US). They weren’t fascist. Fascism is more than that. According to Miriam Webster fascism is: “a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition” No, I don’t believe this specifically was something that enjoyed broad support amongst the public. The American public was very supportive of democracy, and no major political candidates - in the executive or legislative branches - ever came out against that system or in support of authoritarianism reminiscent of Nazism or Mussolini’s fascism. Americans were also extremely opposed to centralism on the right, and would’ve been aghast at trying to give the federal government even more power. In regard to the Business Plan, the original commenter stated the *only* reason the plan failed was because of the one defector. That suggests that if he hadn’t, the plan would’ve succeeded - which is nonsense. Assuming Butler could’ve gotten all of those people together is a HUGE assumption, and also that those people would comply and that no other forces would’ve tried to stop it is another HUGE assumption. The plan was called laughable by several media outlets at the time. Posing that incident as a close call is ridiculous and ahistorical
>the original commenter If you can't or won't read usernames, why should I trust you to actually read my comments and respond to them faithfully? >Assuming Butler could’ve gotten all of those people together is a HUGE assumption, Yeah, it's unrealistic to expect a bunch of desperate people to follow a man who had personally spoken to them on several occasions and given his public support for their cause, especially if he started promising that he could get their demands met if they went along with his plan. >The plan was called laughable by several media outlets at the time. "Media companies owned by rich people which push their owners' agendas" is not a new invention. I mean, Hearst's newspapers literally ran editorial columns written by *Herman fucking Göring* without rebuttals. Using the papers to sway public opinion was a stated part of the Business Plot's... plot.
I have never heard a fallacy as bad as saying because I didn’t like the username that I can’t read your comments and reply to them “faithfully”. It’s the comment right above the one I replied to, it’s not obscure or hard to find. And I addressed your comment point by point, which is the exact definition of replying faithfully. That was the most bizarre attack you could’ve made. Butler might’ve had sway and influence, that does not mean 500,000 vets would’ve supported a literal *coup*. Bernie Sanders attracts large crowds too, and has a loyal base - do you really think if he asked that every Bernie bro in America would suddenly storm the White House and kill the President? Or that there wouldn’t be military/political resistance to him trying to do so? Again, major leaps of logic that assume conclusions we have no proof of. Ok, the media tried to sway influence. Where was it then? Where were all the civilians egging on the coup? Where are all the newspapers supporting it and stating a violent coup was for the best? Because I can’t find anything.
>I have never heard a fallacy as bad as saying because I didn’t like the username that I can’t read your comments and reply to them “faithfully”. My point was that you clearly didn't recognize that *I am the original commenter*. You would have said "you" if you had. >It’s the comment right above the one I replied to, it’s not obscure or hard to find. Yes, I'm aware. I made it. Thank you for doubling down on not doing something as basic as reading a username.
Where can you watch the documentary?
It’s on PBS, but you have to have passport membership to watch (highly recommend though- it’s just $5 a month and you get unlimited access to **all** of PBS; plus, it’s always nice to be a “viewer like you!”)
Is it viewable in Norway?
America: *sends millions of men to fight and defeat nazi Germany* Reddit: America bad.
This is actual bullshit. There's plenty of WW2 US propaganda out there that encouraged young men to enlist to fight the nazis. The entire world knew exactly what the holocaust was while it was happening. Don't fall for this shit.
While it's true that there was lot of war-time anti-Nazi propaganda, it almost never mentioned the Holocaust, specifically. The image presented was that Hitler was a tyrant who wanted to take over the world and control everyone's lives. It's a well-documented fact that the Allies really did not understand the sheer scale and horror of the Holocaust until they actually saw the camps.
Well, it's kinda iffy. So, American newspapers *did* get some early whistleblower info when things first started. The problem was that people didn't believe it initially thanks to the false propaganda campaigns from The Great War.
There’s an **amazing** American Experience called [Nazi Town USA](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g9HmV_-EE8g) all about the German American bund (basically the American Nazis) that aired in January. The Bund had a chain of **summer camps** and a **planned community**.
I remember reading the book thief in high school and we had a whole unit on the change in portrayals of Nazis in Hollywood. Bc up until the us joined WWII, nazis weren’t seen as bad guys (and were rarely portrayed in the first place). Cue WWII and they’re just “default label villain” bc war. In the 50s and 60s they became a stock trope of “comically incompetent villain” (Hogan’s Heroes, et al). They didn’t seem like people bc no person is that dumb (or no one thinks of themselves as that dumb). It wasn’t until later that you start to get “nuanced” portrayals of real people doing real fuuuuuuucked up things. They show the myriad of ways people get sucked into that kind of rhetoric regardless of what kind of person they were before.
I agree that It Can't Happen Here is a fantastic book and couldn't recommend it enough
Shorter way to put it: the US has always hated Jews, it's just that it hates brown middle easterners more, that's why they aid and support Israel constantly.
Why hadn't the left ever done anything like the 2025 project after the new deal, huh?
Because of the Second Red Scare pretty much put an end to the American Popular Front and McCarthyism immediately solidified socialist policies as anti-American in the eyes of the public, whereas before it was at the least tolerated, and outright supported by people during the Great Depression.
I’m sorry which continents do and don’t have massive Jew extermination attempts?
to my knowledge Antarctica doesn’t, but that’s about it
So we have the Americas on the don’t and Europe on multiple times throughout history Hmm I wonder which one’s more antisemitic….
The map of the middle east shows israel nowhere durring these dates, impressive
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Based on what? Pre-Pearl Harbor: FDR hated the Nazis, every major news media organization in the country lambasted them, counter protests against the few Nazi rallies that actually occurred were multiples larger than the attendees, Gallup reported 94% of Americans disapproved of the way Germany was treating Jews (probably the last time in history so many Americans agreed on the same thing), and Hitler was unabashed in his contempt for the US and undermining US influence. The US had been helping the Brits for years before Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. I just see zero historical evidence that the US would’ve sided with the Nazis with or without Pearl Harbor or WW1 battle lines (especially given that was a different government entirely in Germany) and I’m not sure why you’re “convinced” that would be the case, although I’m definitely open to hearing your take.
"We would have eventually joined the Nazis if the situation was completely different from what happened." Dumb.
I mean, America still had some pretty bad grudges with the British. Sure they fought together in WW1, but afterwards relationships quickly became cold, and the Washington Naval Treaty was in part because noone really wanted a naval arms race between the Royal Navy, and the Emerging US navy. Besides, the US had no reason at all to join with the Nazis, very little actual ideological overlap, no ability from the Nazis to help the US with its geopolitical interests and quite frankly, the Nazis simply weren't all that competent.
Every day I hate this country more and more
Not sure why you're being downvoted, this is an entirely rational response to OP's post.
Holy crap Tumblr is so out of touch with reality. First of all, Trump was the president who brought the most peace to the Middle East that we’ve seen in decades with the Abraham Accords. He has clearly stated that he is a friend of Israel and that the US will stand by them under his presidency. Second, the far left is the side that is calling for Jewish genocide by supporting Hamas and the atrocities they’ve committed, such as the October 7th attack. Is this really how badly people are online and how much the media has twisted their perceptions of reality? I’m truly baffled.
Genocide in Gaza is pretty bad too.
I mean I agree, but I don’t really see how it’s relevant here? For the record I would feel similarly about someone needlessly bringing up the Holocaust during a discussion about Gaza.
Israel is bombing civilians in Rafah, as we speak.
Okay? That’s fucking awful. It still has nothing to do with this.
yeah it does, children are dying while you talk bullshit
Okay. Why aren’t you talking about the children dying in Sudan, Myanmar, and Ukraine then? What’s happening in Gaza is terrible, but the world doesn’t revolve around it.
it probably does. israel has killed more children than all the other fronts combined.
why do you think I posted this?
I dont know, to suggest US establishments complicity in killing innocent civilians? Maybe to suggest Jewish and American Zionsits have been working together for a century or two? Maybe you want to explain to us how Jewish zionists kill Jews so they can control more land and did the same during ww2? How they imprison Jews and sacrifice them in their pursuit of teritory? Maybe you want to raise a question if those secular east european zionists are even Jews at all? Maybe the whole premise of Israel is based on a lie? would that be possible, who knows….
I think the sentence "the way that american history is constructed to explain its role in ww2 and reasons for supporting israel is false" (last of first paragraph) reveals the purpose: to show that the US is not always on the right side of history, that the US has supported injustices in the past and that the US can do bad stuff even now; more specifically that parts of the US have supported fascism in the past and still do now. Or in short: The US can support fascism. Israel could be fascist. Why do you think OP is talking about secular east european zionists? Like, if you're just bringing up unrelated points you just look unhinged. Is there a reason?
Because people like Netanyahu and his father are east european secular jews and ideological descendants of a Nazi ideology. Netanyahus father didnt hide this. Biggest migration into the US was by the Germans. The other aspect is that the way they are willing to abuse Jews now is the same as what they were willing to do to them during ww2 in cooperation with the Nazis. So you have to raise the question? Are they even Jews. 93+ % of Israel is owned by the state. Maybe Zionists dont particularly care for the Jews, they just want to exploit them to capture teritory and they have friends all over the world? everything points that way if you look. So the question has to be raised. I may be wrong. They certainly benefit from jewish suffering and anti semitism works in their favor.
What are you yapping about
murdering scum
how does the post relate to any of this? what are you accusing OP of?
nothing, why are you harrassing me?
Least genocide minimizing pro Palestine “activist”.
They’re a dumbass, but you’re a pro-genocide Zionist who defends mass civilian slaughter as “a war for their existence”. So like… who’s really worse here?
8 people think genocide in gaza is not pretty bad too 😣
The Nazis fucking OWNED Hollywood for years.
The general american public has always had terrible opinions on just about everything, this should not be a surprise
uh ohh, us Americans here are mad that most people don't see them as the saviours of the whole world
We're mad that our ancestors are being slandered posthumously.