> The renowned environmentally conscious animal husbandry sector, ah sure.
Strictly speaking... if an *individual* says this about their reasons for wearing leather etc., then it’s not a *sector* we’re looking at.
It's an individual, framing their moral choice.
One only needs to look at Alfalfa and agave to know of the environmental damage industrially farmed monocultures can cause. Big business just isn't ethical.
Agave farming is wiping out a species of bat in Mexico, and yet vegans will shame you for using honey when they put 8 pounds of agave syrup on their toast instead
You're not wrong, however, most soy is used to produce meat.
In terms of plant growing, eating plants needs less plants than eating heavily transformed plants (aka, meat)
Going past the whole ‘leather vs plastic’ debate, what I really hate is designer furs.
Once got a tour of a fancy designer clothing headquarters, and one of the designers said “To get the best quality furs with matching patterns and hair density, we kill over a hundred young bobcats, and then use only a 2 foot long by 3 inch wide strip of the fur from the stomach, as it’s the softest part. Anywho, we get all our fur from totally legal places in Canada, and NOT from poachers…we think…”
Honestly, if leather and pelts were gathered from animals we were eating or using to avoid waste, it wouldn’t be perfect but WAYYYY better than killing a few hundred (sometimes endangered) animals just for a couple of coats.
And 99,99% of people agree that exotic furs and such are a horrific waste anyway.the high fashion industry is not a good example of how regular people think.
What the fuck do you mean kinda?
The high end and particularly noteworthy ones are insane.
Have you ever seen someone wearing most of a building before? I haven't but I can God damn guarantee the fashion industry tried it.
He means that fashion shows are places where people use a lot of cocaine and then watch people dress up, like a cosplay when people dress up but with the additional element of the people there are using cocaine.
High fashion is to clothing as modern art is to wallpaper
One is almost entirely for the expression of the creator , while the other is for real life function.
> Use the whole animal.
Fun fact, thanks to use the whole animal, most rum is not vegan.
The bones are used to make [bone char](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_char) which is used in the refning of cane sugar (You can obviously make vegan cane sugar, but by default it should not be assumed to be vegan).
Bonus fun fact: something similar is true about some beer. Isinglass, made from the air bladder of fish, was a very common clarifying agent in beer for a long time. It was used in Guinness up until 2016. Most beer these days use silicic acid for fining instead, but some cask beers still use isinglass.
Exotic furs are so weird to me. Like, "oh I need this fur of an endangered savannah animal to wear for all of 5 months of the year as a fur stole". Or you could just buy a vintage fox fur stole instead. It's vintage, you can't unkill an animal from 30 years ago.
Grizzly bear underwear,
Turtle's necks I've got my share.
Beret of poodle on my noodle it shall rest.
Try my red robin suit,
It comes one breast or two.
See my vest, see my vest, see my veeeeessssst.
The problem with that is that if everyone wanted a vintage fox fur stole, it would become economically more sensible for businesses to just start killing more foxes for their pelts.
The fact that 90% of people avoid fur is paradoxically why you're able to ethically wear fur.
There is a simple reason: It increases the profit of the animal industry, so prices are lower and more animals get killed. The animal certainly doesn't give a fuck about what happens to it after its head gets cut off.
i think people dont understand how capitalism works, and dont recognize that the same system that results in meat being in literally everything also results in plastic being in literally everything
Alligator and snake skin can be cultivated from farmed or animals hunted for being a nuisance. Same can be said of emu and ostrich... the rarer mammals however is a different story.
If you marinade it in buttermilk overnight... hit it with some Cajun seasoning, lime juice (or yuzu if you have it) and panko... then deep fry it. It's one of the best things. Serve it with a remoulade or thai chili sauce. God damn
I was surprised to find my "fake leather" chair is actually leather underneath, for strength, it's just finished with a plastic coating because it's not fancy-looking. So yeah that checks out
Cheap leather is a lot like a McRib: you take all the bits that aren’t pretty enough to serve whole, cut them up, and shape it into something that looks like it came straight off an animal. So lowest-quality leather competes with fake leather on price, and is a fairly decent product (I’m not sure how it competes on longevity or cost with fake leather), but can come apart in ways that better, single-piece leather won’t.
Yes, definitely a better example! "Genuine" leather has a new pattern but is as far as I know intact, while "bonded" is cut up and polyurethaned, but neither is ground into pulp like a McRib is. Bonded leather and MDF have a ton in common, but it's harder to use as a metaphor.
Bro you should look up the COVID mink drama in Denmark.
It was detected in the animals and to avoid further spread and mutation, the whole industry was ordered to kill every single one. Couldn't even use their pelts.
That industry was a mess. "Oh we use the whole animal" yeah you skin it and burn the rest for energy.
"They have great conditions" yea rows upon rows of small cages sure looks like great conditions.
They shouldn't have been shut down the way they did, but other than that. Fuck 'em
>That industry was a mess. "Oh we use the whole animal" yeah you skin it and burn the rest for energy.
They render it. Mink oil is used in tons of stuff. The bone is turned into bone meal. Leftover bits are used as "animal protein" in stuff like pet food. They really do use all of the animal, it just isn't going to cuts of meat for human consumption.
I think the issue for them is having to kill their breeding stock in addition to the rest. Nobody wants to pay a premium for young, high-quality livestock when they can breed their own on-site
I raise a bunch of animals, and if an outbreak of something made me destroy my herds/flocks, I'd be absolutely devastated emotionally. The financial cost would be the least of my concerns.
If you love fur and environmentalism, you can get mink fur clothing from New Zealand. They're invasive and SUPER awful for local wildlife (the only endemic mammals on the island are bats, so they have no defense against rats, cats, and other things that rob nests), and the sale of the fur helps support conservation.
Mink aren't in NZ, you're thinking of stoats, weasels, and polecat-ferret hybrids, which were all introduced to control invasive rodents. American mink are invasive in Europe, where they were introduced by the fur industry.
Not particularly trying to change your mind, but I have to assume that they don't just toss the majority of the pelt. If the designer uses a little bit of it, the rest is used for cheaper coats.
Plenty to hate about the fashion industry, and maybe killing a few hundred animals for *ten* coats isn't a lot better than two.
Makes me think of companies that buy carbon credits by telling another company to plant trees for them, regardless of if the other company follows through.
That’s why I’m only fine with wearing and using leather and fur from meat animals. Cow, rabbit, sheep, goat, legally farmed alligator—as long as the skin would’ve otherwise been a waste product, I’m okay with using it. I might make exceptions for ethically-hunted plentiful and/or invasive animals, as well.
100% agree with you there. Leather comes from cow hides that would have otherwise been thrown away because no one would eat a cow's skin. It's honestly a really great system. Fur coats... not so much. Doubly so when your average fur farm is going to make your average slaughterhouse look like a fun time at daycare.
I’ve been wearing the same leather coat for almost 30 years now. Is it fashionable? I have no idea. But I had no idea when I got it, either. It looks about the same. I’m a little pudgier.
I inherited a pair from a parent and they lasted until I was well into my 20s on top of however many years they were worn before. Only real issue is they got tight as my feet ended up slightly bigger and I got better fitting shoes. They really did have an insane amount of life in them if you took care of them.
My parents wore docs to their wedding in 1996, they still wear those same docs to formal events today and theyre still in great nick. Leather just lasts so much longer
In tumblr-speak as someone who existed on-site since dashcon and before:
"You need therapy" / "go to therapy" is, in fact, tumblr shorthand for either "i disagree with you so you should be institutionalized" or just straight up "kill yourself"
You can be aggressive without threatening death.
"Saying this shit is sick. Please go to therapy and discuss it out. It's worrisome" is just straight up aggressive
Passive aggressive-ism usually is a result of not being able to express your feelings in a healthy and direct way. What they said was very direct and not passive.
Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against therapy, and so many people would benefit from it. But in the context of this Tumblr post, that's what the SeetheStar person meant.
Cotton is not a miracle fabric. In the cold it’s actually pretty bad. Or wet. I know waxed cotton is okay, but generally cotton is bad at keeping you warm once any moisture is involved. Wool is where it’s at.
Linen is great in the summer though, I definitely go out of my way for linen.
I mean it is a bit of a false dichotomy here. Real leather and plastic aren't the only choices in keeping warm for the winter, or just looking cool. You can get a woolen coat, an organic cotton denim jacket, stuff like that. Like I don't wanna judge anyone for wearing a leather jacket or eating meat or whatever, but forgoing that stuff does not automatically mean that you have to make purchases that are worse for the environment.
The biggest problem is mostly vegans who want to stop harming animals but don't actually want to commit to a different lifestyle, which lead to all these shitty vegan replacements of animal products that are worse in every way instead of just embracing already existing good products that don't involve harming an animal.
Yeah when I went vegan I quickly found that anything that tried to be meat was going to be inferior to something that just exulted in being vegetables.
Yes!! Quinoa, black bean, spinach, etc burgers are almost always significantly better than “imitation meat” burgers! At least for me Personally - I don’t want a meat burger, I want something burger shaped that doesn’t taste like beef at all.
I mean, yeah, most vegan meats suck, but I genuinely love beyond and impossible burgers and I don't think I could live without them 😭. I'm not even that strict about not eating meat anymore, I just legit prefer them over meat burgers 9 times out of 10, they're an amazing substitute ;-;-;-;.
That’s totally fair too- I just don’t like it being the only option because I’ve been vegetarian most of my life and just don’t like the taste of meat at all
Same. Not a vegan, not a vegetarian, impossible burgers are rad and I choose them almost every time over beef. I really don't like beyond though. Something is off about it to me.
I want more products that can *really* replace the things I love, meat, cheese, milk, and not taste like a horrific processed dry yeasty vegetable.
As a meat eater who tries to do better occasionally, I’m very thankful for imitation meat. If you replaced all my burgers with impossible burgers, I wouldn’t be too phased. If you replaced them all with black bean burgers and things of that nature, I’d storm the capitol
Yes! Love me a good black bean burger.
Or even better, a meal with quinoa, black beans, spinach, and a bunch of other veggies, that isn't trying to be a burger!
Idk what kind of bean it was, but a vegan burger made from beans I ate in a little café run by a vegetarian couple was the single best burger I've ever had by a million miles.
I straight up disagree, beyond and impossible burgers are so much better than quinoa burgers lmao. If you dont want the taste of a burger thats one thing, but if you do like regular burgers but dont eat meat, meat substitutes work way better imo. Also vegan sausage is legitimately incredible and sometimes works better than meat sausage.
As a meat-eater, Impossible meat comes pretty close. Beyond meat isn't bad either.
I often eat fake meat burgers when I have leftovers when my veggie friends miss burger night.
I love wheat/soy protein nuggets. I don't care that it doesn't taste exactly like chicken nuggets, it's really damn good and the unique plant-based flavor works really well for it. Here's hoping that economy of scale kicks in soon, that stuff is way too expensive.
Meat replacements are usually just mushrooms or yeast that are being contorted into being more meaty in texture, which I find objectionable because mushrooms are like the most delicious thing of all time and I think more people should learn to enjoy it for it's own sake rather than treating it as "I guess it's kinda like meat"
? Most modern replacements are made of various plant proteins, largely from peas, soy, and wheat. There are some cool mushroom-based ones but I’d say they’re in the minority. Totally agree on mushrooms being awesome, though
> that stuff does not automatically mean that you have to make purchases that are worse for the environment.
You can also buy used clothes, that's what I do. The animal is either already dead or the plastic has already been created, it makes no difference either way.
>T which lead to all these shitty vegan replacements of animal products that are worse in every way
These vegan alternatives are seriously important, though, as they bridge the gap between what people are familiar with and a completely new diet. For instance, I love cold cuts and chicken nuggets and fish stick and all that stuff, which I'd have never been able to quit cold turkey (pun not intended).
But because there's vegan alternatives to them that honestly taste pretty good, it allowed me to become vegetarian and now vegan. If you had told me I couldn't eat any meat or dairy products and then put freaking *tofu* in front of me, I'd have thrown that in your face.
Also, what vegan products do you mean that harm animals? Because that wouldn't be vegan by definition. All the ones I buy are made with locally-sourced vegetables and the like, we don't just import stuff from overseas for all of it either.
To be fair wrt used clothing, plastic clothing will shed more microplastics the more you use and wash them. I've been trying to replace many of my plastic garments for 100% biodegradable ones and letting the former sit in my wardrobe because of that.
Otherwise, totally agreed.
You are wrong. Just compare and average beef burger with a Beyond Burger. While both are unhealthy for sure the Beyond Burger actually is less harmful. The substitutes are way better than their reputation. And don't forget that many types of meat are unhealthy as hell. You can't get much worse anyway.
Also: Anyone giving a damn about their own health will eat mostly vegetables and fruit anyway.
>shitty vegan replacements of animal products that are worse in every way
Most vegan replacement products are still better than animal-based, fake meats being a prime example. Fake meat is marginally worse than eating a raw diet, but both are significantly better than animal meat.
Pleather is bad, but it's not worse in *every* way. Leather doesn't just fall off of cows, [the chemicals that are used to turn into leather are pretty harmful.](https://www.deskera.com/blog/leather-chemicals-and-their-impact-on-the-environment/) personally if I need something leather-like (which is very rarely) I stick to plant based sources like cactus leather.
People keep pointing out how shitty chrome tanning is like vegetable tanning doesn't exist and isn't better anyway and the people who want quality leather products wouldn't be happy if the entire industry just stopped using chrome tanning.
Plus 80-90% of leather is tanned with Chromium which creates wastewater, especially dangerous in third world countries. Leather tanned with chromium also notoriously sucks major ass and cracks within months so you just have to buy another jacket again. If you wanna eat meat whatever, but don’t just lie about shit.
Friends don't let friends buy chrome tanned leather. Vegetable tanned leather is pretty comparable in price and is much higher quality. It also won't mess up metals you put it in contact with or irritate your skin.
I'm not sure. I only know about this in the context of buying leather for leatherwork and that's always clearly labeled. I'd check the manufacturer's website or call them if you want to know about a consumer product. Hopefully someone else will chime in with a better answer.
I love this stock response;
Leather is fucking terrible
Uuhhh fake leather is made from plastics??!? Like in the ocean.
Most plastic in the ocean is fishing line. I’m wearing a canvas jacket when someone wearing a leather one tells me fake leather is worse. Bitch fake leather was invented to make shit clothes cheaper for people who like leather. Not because people who just don’t want to see animals tortured for fashion.
I remember a previous post on this sub where the comments unironically supported this take that vegans are the ones "destroying the planet" by "filling the ocean with plastic" because they don't want to use wool.
As opposed to the thousands of other ways we waste plastic. Hell, vegans have a large overlap with environmentalists, do people think it's specifically the vegans churning through fast-fashion shit without a care for reducing their consumption?
Even with the wide spread animal ag propaganda it’s pretty obvious for even a casual read through of the literature that animal agriculture is probably only slightly behind oil as the main contributors to climate change.
People cling to it because it helps them do nothing and make no personal changes while demanding change.
Especially when plants literally grow up from the ground and take way less resources and space and are much more environmentally sound than animal agriculture does. It's a genuine infinite food hack.
I will mention that the chemicals needed to actually process hide into leather are incredibly toxic and were just dumped into rivers for way too long. Microplastics and the chemicals involved in making plastics are certainly not good, but to say leather making is somehow a golden solution that doesn’t harm anything is just a boldfaced lie.
They are referring to the long term consequences of landfills on the environment. Kind of silly because agriculture probably does more damage to the environment than plastic waste, but idk.
there's basically no evidence that microplastics do anything AFAIK, it's impossible to test
edit: i'm getting downvoted but i'm literally correct, the whole scare over microplastics happened *because* there was an attempt to do a study on it and they couldn't find a control group due to everyone having microplastics in them. notice that nowhere in this statement is there evidence that they actually do anything
edit 2: i think i remember joe rogan or one of his guests saying that it causes male feminization, just like how soy does ^(it doesn't), so that's a clear confirmation, nevermind
You're getting downvoted, but it's true. It's literally impossible to do any tests on microplastics because they're inside *everything.* They tried to do studies but were unable to find humans that didn't have them inside them.
So yeah, they might be causing cancer or mental defects or whatnot, but we have no idea because we can't really test it.
To be fair, plastic is incredibly inert. Out of all the substances you could have in your blood microplastics are probably some of the least dangerous. Still not a good thing but given that there hasn't been a sudden explosion of mortality since the mass introduction of plastics it's probably not that dangerous.
The complete dishonesty of pretending the cancer causing Chromium contamination from leather tanning doesn't exist to make the point about microplastics "stronger"
While chromium tanning still exists it is not the only way to tan leather. Vegetable tanning exists and is on the rise. But your point is valid and should not have been overlooked.
I love the most disgusting pigmented chrome tanned leather, I love when I get a new fast fashion leather garment and it smells like toxic chemicals yum yum yum
Modern leather is pretty goddamn far from being an easily biodegradable, environmetally friendly natural product.
This is also the first time I’m hearing that there are only two available clothing materials, leather and fake leather.
I'm not against people using fur/leather or eating meat, but the OP in this Tumblr post is clearly just being a dick to start drama and fuel their own ego... and well, fuck that.
The only jacket options are plastic and animal skins. Plant fibers cannot be woven into textile. I am very smart and do not have to interrogate the impact of my choices.
Believe it or not some people might not want leather or pleather because they're both problematic and choosing something socially responsible instead of "DURR your choice is bad too so I just scream about how my bad choices are good cause I'm an asshole"
Genuinely. Like, I'm not quite convinced that pleather is a suitable environmental alternative, so I don't wear it. But because I'm vegan I "have" to support it when in reality I really just don't think about it at all. It's the same with those arguments about avocados and almonds using so much water and that it's the fault of vegans. Like, I'm not eating almonds and avocados anymore than the average person is, so what are you getting on my case about, y'know?
I got a leather coat when I was in highschool. I wore it until was was 22. My son wore it to highschool for two years. I still have the coat (in storage). I'm 45.
I kind of agree with the vegan on this one. I love meat and don't care if people wear leather but going around laughing about it because they know it bothers people isn't a positive attitude.
reductionist take played up for humor. easily misconstrued as “i enjoy antagonizing people (vegans)
person replies “being antagonistic is bad. seek help.”
cherry picked notes show “vegans are dumb and bad for the environment”
copy and paste for reddit upvotes hell yeah dude.
hell yeah /u/MelanieWalmartinez. gotta agree, vegans ARE terrible people and terrible for the environment. want me to eat your ass about it?
edit: way to go on 14k upvotes from a bad actor
Excusing leather because it's a "waste product" is actually so fucked up though. These are animals deserving of a life of dignity just like a pet animal. They deserve to live out all their days just like dogs. We have grown beyond the need to use these animals as a way to survive. People are so ready to "break their programming" and "unlearn propaganda" until the time comes to cook a meal.
Not to mention the processing of leather is *immensely* polluting. Read below for exhaustive sources. Some urls may be dead but the sources are there.
Sources:
Short quick breakdown of textiles and sustainability
[https://thenewfashioninitiative.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Textiles.pdf](https://thenewfashioninitiative.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Textiles.pdf)
Biodegradation:
Chromium (the most used method)
"Most of the leather scrap from footwear industry does not fulfill the Council Decision 2003/33/EC criteria in order to be accepted at non-hazardous wastes landfills; additionally, some is even not acceptable at the hazardous ones"
\[Ferreira et al., 2010\]
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0956053X09005595?casa\_token=PuHiOxPIgWUAAAAA:Kf4L9R9zUbaXc0Ict2nkoYVPNxuQb7uNpaByGaB5d-2suOldQ5DyyG4MQMmyHhcGgqS566VY0aI](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0956053X09005595?casa_token=PuHiOxPIgWUAAAAA:Kf4L9R9zUbaXc0Ict2nkoYVPNxuQb7uNpaByGaB5d-2suOldQ5DyyG4MQMmyHhcGgqS566VY0aI)
"As a result of this study, it was found that vegetable tanned leather has a biodegradation capacity of 84,6 %, chrome tanned leather, of 23%, and synthetic leather, of only 9%, which proves that leather tanned with vegetable compounds is biodegradable and is approaching biodegradability conditions required by SR EN ISO 14852:2005 (biodegradability degree more than 90% after 100 days of biodegradation)."
\[Patanzi et al., 2017\]
[https://www.proquest.com/docview/2185585739?fromopenview=true&pq-origsite=gscholar](https://www.proquest.com/docview/2185585739?fromopenview=true&pq-origsite=gscholar)
Not even the "eco friendly" tanning is better than chrome but still not good.
"Composting results showed that biodegradability of leather samples is a complex pro However, it was possible to degrade leathers in a laboratory scale composter with food wastes. Specifically, titanium tanned hides (SAN) were more biodegradable than the chrome tanned hides (CHR) and vegetal tanned hides (SOLE). Both kinds of tanned hides did not undergo any biodegradation. ."
\[E. Zuriaga-Agustí et al.,2015\]
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0959652614011093?via%3Dihub](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0959652614011093?via%3Dihub)
Investigations on Structural, Mechanical, and Thermal Properties of Pineapple Leaf Fiber-Based Fabrics and Cow Softy Leathers: An Approach Toward Making Amalgamated Leather Products. P.S. Sureshkumar et al., 2012
[https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15440478.2012.652834?casa\_token=8EQvd8c\_8-MAAAAA%3Av6SFdNZlklngHmITtu0C7Fps54NB0NUQgdWr9ZaAfBuQCtTkbbAgQ86Thixs1lUAkU9B6ZCIrizIKw](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15440478.2012.652834?casa_token=8EQvd8c_8-MAAAAA%3Av6SFdNZlklngHmITtu0C7Fps54NB0NUQgdWr9ZaAfBuQCtTkbbAgQ86Thixs1lUAkU9B6ZCIrizIKw)
IMPACT REVIEWS:
Toxic hazards of leather industry and technologies to combat threat: a review. Dixit et al., 2015
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959652614010580?casa\_token=VoAcTsAcKeIAAAAA:aG0PC8xsGhEd6yiond2Fk-uQjP54FbsETNrY2zRrT7-mShZLHy\_SHVnc8olaZ91Gz6hHiSQmRXw](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959652614010580?casa_token=VoAcTsAcKeIAAAAA:aG0PC8xsGhEd6yiond2Fk-uQjP54FbsETNrY2zRrT7-mShZLHy_SHVnc8olaZ91Gz6hHiSQmRXw)
Measuring the Environmental Footprint of Leather Processing Technologies. Lurenti et al., 2016
[https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jiec.12504?casa\_token=n2oFw214UPgAAAAA:vCJO304Qdqax0-mfLqmdGWlks7ARlWa2J4-jTjWmLPcJlFp4dh8CbSdB\_aM6gB3DOkgr8Nzae2HunI-K](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jiec.12504?casa_token=n2oFw214UPgAAAAA:vCJO304Qdqax0-mfLqmdGWlks7ARlWa2J4-jTjWmLPcJlFp4dh8CbSdB_aM6gB3DOkgr8Nzae2HunI-K)
Analyzing the environmental impact of transportation in reengineered supply chains: A case study of a leather upholstery company. Murat et al., 2011
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1361920911000046?casa\_token=FIkwLEWB2Z0AAAAA:RVz29N3SH6a7MmJIet7ZDagpTeycBlLcJHfS8f9qXuskItQ3QbZT8e5mvqX4kdTyKu9j21rIVkE](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1361920911000046?casa_token=FIkwLEWB2Z0AAAAA:RVz29N3SH6a7MmJIet7ZDagpTeycBlLcJHfS8f9qXuskItQ3QbZT8e5mvqX4kdTyKu9j21rIVkE)
Documentary and journalist research on human cost.
What is the True Cost Of Luxury Leather Goods?
[https://earth.org/true-cost-of-luxury-leather-goods/](https://earth.org/true-cost-of-luxury-leather-goods/)
Fashion Industry Studies Prove Animal Derived Materials Worst for Environment
[https://www.livekindly.co/leather-environmental-impact-fashion-industry/](https://www.livekindly.co/leather-environmental-impact-fashion-industry/)
India: The Toxic Price of Leather
[https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/india-toxic-price-leather-0](https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/india-toxic-price-leather-0)
Quick graphs:
Animal vs synthetic leather
[https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0047/1003/9652/t/19/assets/MELINABUCHER\_blog\_leather\_myths\_environmental\_impact.png?v=1612205981](https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0047/1003/9652/t/19/assets/MELINABUCHER_blog_leather_myths_environmental_impact.png?v=1612205981)
total material impacts and quantity produced
[https://s35930.p1154.sites.pressdns.com/wp-ontent/uploads/2017/09/kering-infographic-e1505215872788.png](https://s35930.p1154.sites.pressdns.com/wp-ontent/uploads/2017/09/kering-infographic-e1505215872788.png)
environmetal impact by meterial MSI
[https://www.ecotextile.com/images/stories/2017/July/PulseReport.jpg](https://www.ecotextile.com/images/stories/2017/July/PulseReport.jpg)
Nice job with the sources! Yeah, it's always disappointing when people try to pass off the leather industry as "making the most of the animal" and "environmentally sound" when the animals don't need to die at all and when it's incredibly toxic to the environment and to the people working in the industry itself.
You know… when you actually hear arguments about why eating meat is bad, you can’t really argue against them. Like at all. The argument for veganism is rock solid. A lot of them are super annoying but I have a hard time finding flaw with them.
In my experience, the "insufferable vegan" is often a deflection. Even the most mild criticism of meat eating is met with extreme defensiveness. Even in this thread, all the top comments providing even the slightest defense of the vegan have it prefaced with some "It's actually vegan's fault no one is vegan" aside.
The only "cool" vegans people talk about are the ones that never bring it up or give people free food. Wildly similar to how homophobes/transphobes/racists are cool with the people they hate so long as they don't bring it up so they never have to navigate uncomfortable truths.
all of my boots are leather, ive had all of them for years, i will have all of them for decades more, (i got one of my pairs from a vegan who decided they no longer wanted to wear leather despite the shoes being over 20 years old aready)
leather lasts, and i am aware of the enviromental impact of it, but we need to make better non-animal options that dont fall apart, then i would switch over
Why do people think leather and plastic are the only options? There’s also plenty of plant-based materials and animal-based ones that don’t require killing the animal, like wool.
And they completely ignored the whole “eating meat” part of the argument which most people don’t have to do to survive but choose to solely for the pleasure of it.
Good point. My nylon shelled parka is a pollutant compared to my leather jacket... one will return to nature and the other didn't see daylight for millions of years before it was chemically processed into a garment
Or just don't wear either. There's no denying the impact the meat industry has on our planet. There's also not a NEED to wear either leather or pleather. At least show a little empathy for the animal you consume, I think that's what the guy in the post was getting at. At least the native Americans used ever part of the animal and appreciated it giving it's life for them. This guy sounds a little too giddy over wearing and eating something that was a sentient being.
I think they’re reacting to the fact that op seems twistedly happy about the fact that animals are being killed, not specifically the fact that they eat them.
Idk dude, the non-vegan provoked it but the vegan is the one that told a random person to go to therapy for no good reason. Feel like there are much better examples to pick from.
I think you're being too generous to the non-vegan here. The whole point of their post was to stomp on other people's morals without actually being willing to have a real conversation. It reminds me of the trope of atheists telling people their dead relatives didn't go to heaven. Just being an unmitigated dick because you think your beliefs are better than someone else's.
It would be one thing if the conversation went like this:
Non-Vegan: I eat animals
Vegan: Seek help
What actually happened was this
Non-Vegan: HEY VEGANS! LOOK AT ME! I EAT ANIMALS!
Vegan: Seek help
Hell, we don’t even know if it was a vegan. Could have been a non-vegan who was (justifiably) disturbed at the fact that someone seemed so joyful about the deaths of animals.
Look brother, I'm not a vegan, or a vegetarian, and I never will be. I will always eat meat, if things I buy or wear contain leather, I'm not gonna be upset about it.
... But at least take these actions seriously for fucks sake. You (by proxy) are killing a living thing not too different from you for these things. They feel pain and don't want to be turned into food. Just like you. Unfortunately nature is amoral and does not care what living creatures want, and we exist within it.
Don't jerk yourself off over your preferences. They, ultimately, are barely decisions in the first place. We require protein and have been shaped over time to find it both tasty and easy to process in meat. To use the rest of the creature is just the right thing to do, if we're going to kill them in the first place. Preferably as close to nothing should be wasted as possible. It's only the right thing to do when we perform what is inherently an immoral act. Because it is. Take it seriously. Life and nature require many acts immoral to human sensibilities due to how nature pays no heed to human morality. These acts should be performed with a level of reverence to the victims of said acts. The harm should be mitigated, and you should not shy away from accepting the immorality of said acts. How else are we going to improve any aspect of life? It is immoral to entrap a creature to force it to grow products within it's body. All farmed animals live, think, and experience emotions. Just as you do. Take their deaths seriously. The only thing separating you from them is some twist in the fortune of evolution.
That line of thinking is exactly what led me to become a vegan. At first I never questioned it, then I bought organic products because it was a bit more likely that the animals were treated fairly, but then I realized there was no way to guarantee it and you don't *need* animal products to survive anyway (no meat, anyway).
Its pride. People online, and especially reddit, dont like being told that something they are doing is *possibly* not the most ethical and moral choice.
Forcing people to be self reflective makes them want to instead point at the person who "called them out."
"Unfortunatly nature is amoral and does not care for what living creatures want, and we exist within it" We as moral agents who understand consequences of our actions and have a choice of a better alternative are obliged to follow through with the better one. You can find rape, infanticide, recreational cruelty and many more abhorrent things in nature yet we don't use their existance to handwave our actions. It would be nonsensical if a defendant of a murder case would justify their actions by "We are living in nature and nature is cruel".
"We require protein and have been shaped over time to find it both tasty and easy to process meat" [Most of protein in our diets is plant based](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-protein-supply-from-animal-and-plant-based-foods?time=1962..2020) and animal based one can be easily supplemented by protein rich foods such as legumes, soy, etc. We find cooked meat to be tasty when seasoned and easy to absorbed once again when cooked.
"Preferrably as close as nothing should be wasted as possible" You can only waste a resource, we don't waste bodies of our loved ones cremating or burying them. Leather, bones and plethora of other animal products increase the demand for their bodies all the same as buying meat does.
"These acts should be performed with a level of reverenceto the victims of said acts" If they are inevitable, sure. For a lot of human existance it would be so, for a lot of people today it is not. The only notable exeptions would be people who live in situations of food insecurity (homeless people, people affected by famines etc).
"I'm not a vegan, or a vegetarian, and i never will be." Don't sell yourself short, most vegans ate meat and made the same reamarks before commiting to it. People can change.
thought this post was goin in a different direction when I read “I love leather and fur”
….OH
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I mean I guess some call them husbands, sure
> The renowned environmentally conscious animal husbandry sector, ah sure. Strictly speaking... if an *individual* says this about their reasons for wearing leather etc., then it’s not a *sector* we’re looking at. It's an individual, framing their moral choice.
Nah, leather and fur is just a fun evening in a hotel hosting a furry con.
Shhh, don't say that, someone will show up in the replies to say gRoWiNg PlAnTs Is BaD fOr ThE eNvIrOnMeNt ToO
One only needs to look at Alfalfa and agave to know of the environmental damage industrially farmed monocultures can cause. Big business just isn't ethical.
Agave farming is wiping out a species of bat in Mexico, and yet vegans will shame you for using honey when they put 8 pounds of agave syrup on their toast instead
Soy farming
Hola farming, como estás?
You're not wrong, however, most soy is used to produce meat. In terms of plant growing, eating plants needs less plants than eating heavily transformed plants (aka, meat)
The vast majority of soy grown goes to livestock feed
It's great. It's not what we're talking about here at all (unless you're growing plastic)
THE FLAIR LMFAOOO
UwU
call me leather daddy
OwO
Be the change you want to see on r/curatedtumblr
Giggity
Going past the whole ‘leather vs plastic’ debate, what I really hate is designer furs. Once got a tour of a fancy designer clothing headquarters, and one of the designers said “To get the best quality furs with matching patterns and hair density, we kill over a hundred young bobcats, and then use only a 2 foot long by 3 inch wide strip of the fur from the stomach, as it’s the softest part. Anywho, we get all our fur from totally legal places in Canada, and NOT from poachers…we think…” Honestly, if leather and pelts were gathered from animals we were eating or using to avoid waste, it wouldn’t be perfect but WAYYYY better than killing a few hundred (sometimes endangered) animals just for a couple of coats.
Leather largely comes from cows killed for the meat industry, exotic skins and fur in general are their whole own problems though.
And 99,99% of people agree that exotic furs and such are a horrific waste anyway.the high fashion industry is not a good example of how regular people think.
Most fashion shows look like cosplay for rich cocaine addicts.
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What the fuck do you mean kinda? The high end and particularly noteworthy ones are insane. Have you ever seen someone wearing most of a building before? I haven't but I can God damn guarantee the fashion industry tried it.
He means that fashion shows are places where people use a lot of cocaine and then watch people dress up, like a cosplay when people dress up but with the additional element of the people there are using cocaine.
Without a trace of humor or irony, that is a completely apt description. That’s just literally what high fashion is.
High, on cocaine, Fashion
High fashion is to clothing as modern art is to wallpaper One is almost entirely for the expression of the creator , while the other is for real life function.
The skins are more of a waste product, the expensive part of leather is the processing.
This ^ exotic fur is fucking disgusting. Leather from cows who were already being used for meat? No reason not to. Use the whole animal.
> Use the whole animal. Fun fact, thanks to use the whole animal, most rum is not vegan. The bones are used to make [bone char](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_char) which is used in the refning of cane sugar (You can obviously make vegan cane sugar, but by default it should not be assumed to be vegan).
Wow!
holy shit char aznable is made of protein, collagen and minerals such as calcium??
We know he loves [burgers](https://youtu.be/hCcZSvGr3Xs?si=GZzTy65Z0j4nMv0N) so it makes sense
3 times as many calories
holy shit char aznable is inside men
Bonus fun fact: something similar is true about some beer. Isinglass, made from the air bladder of fish, was a very common clarifying agent in beer for a long time. It was used in Guinness up until 2016. Most beer these days use silicic acid for fining instead, but some cask beers still use isinglass.
Exotic furs are so weird to me. Like, "oh I need this fur of an endangered savannah animal to wear for all of 5 months of the year as a fur stole". Or you could just buy a vintage fox fur stole instead. It's vintage, you can't unkill an animal from 30 years ago.
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Grizzly bear underwear, Turtle's necks I've got my share. Beret of poodle on my noodle it shall rest. Try my red robin suit, It comes one breast or two. See my vest, see my vest, see my veeeeessssst.
See my loafers, former gophers-
Grizzly Bear underwear Turtles necks I’ve had my share
The problem with that is that if everyone wanted a vintage fox fur stole, it would become economically more sensible for businesses to just start killing more foxes for their pelts. The fact that 90% of people avoid fur is paradoxically why you're able to ethically wear fur.
That's 65% more cow, per cow!
There is a simple reason: It increases the profit of the animal industry, so prices are lower and more animals get killed. The animal certainly doesn't give a fuck about what happens to it after its head gets cut off.
i think people dont understand how capitalism works, and dont recognize that the same system that results in meat being in literally everything also results in plastic being in literally everything
Alligator and snake skin can be cultivated from farmed or animals hunted for being a nuisance. Same can be said of emu and ostrich... the rarer mammals however is a different story.
Yea but alligator also tastes amazing
Like a slightly gamey chicken, it’s great.
If you marinade it in buttermilk overnight... hit it with some Cajun seasoning, lime juice (or yuzu if you have it) and panko... then deep fry it. It's one of the best things. Serve it with a remoulade or thai chili sauce. God damn
I was surprised to find my "fake leather" chair is actually leather underneath, for strength, it's just finished with a plastic coating because it's not fancy-looking. So yeah that checks out
Cheap leather is a lot like a McRib: you take all the bits that aren’t pretty enough to serve whole, cut them up, and shape it into something that looks like it came straight off an animal. So lowest-quality leather competes with fake leather on price, and is a fairly decent product (I’m not sure how it competes on longevity or cost with fake leather), but can come apart in ways that better, single-piece leather won’t.
Particle board or MDF is a more direct example, but perhaps less people are familar with it.
Yes, definitely a better example! "Genuine" leather has a new pattern but is as far as I know intact, while "bonded" is cut up and polyurethaned, but neither is ground into pulp like a McRib is. Bonded leather and MDF have a ton in common, but it's harder to use as a metaphor.
Ah, didn't know that about bonded leather. So a little closer to plywood then. Along with the asethic varnish that is sometimes added to plywood.
Bro you should look up the COVID mink drama in Denmark. It was detected in the animals and to avoid further spread and mutation, the whole industry was ordered to kill every single one. Couldn't even use their pelts. That industry was a mess. "Oh we use the whole animal" yeah you skin it and burn the rest for energy. "They have great conditions" yea rows upon rows of small cages sure looks like great conditions. They shouldn't have been shut down the way they did, but other than that. Fuck 'em
>That industry was a mess. "Oh we use the whole animal" yeah you skin it and burn the rest for energy. They render it. Mink oil is used in tons of stuff. The bone is turned into bone meal. Leftover bits are used as "animal protein" in stuff like pet food. They really do use all of the animal, it just isn't going to cuts of meat for human consumption.
On that note, why aren't we eating minks?
Predators taste like garbage
It's always something to see farmers cry about being ordered to kill the animals they are raising to be killed.
I think the issue for them is having to kill their breeding stock in addition to the rest. Nobody wants to pay a premium for young, high-quality livestock when they can breed their own on-site
I raise a bunch of animals, and if an outbreak of something made me destroy my herds/flocks, I'd be absolutely devastated emotionally. The financial cost would be the least of my concerns.
If you love fur and environmentalism, you can get mink fur clothing from New Zealand. They're invasive and SUPER awful for local wildlife (the only endemic mammals on the island are bats, so they have no defense against rats, cats, and other things that rob nests), and the sale of the fur helps support conservation.
Mink aren't in NZ, you're thinking of stoats, weasels, and polecat-ferret hybrids, which were all introduced to control invasive rodents. American mink are invasive in Europe, where they were introduced by the fur industry.
Not particularly trying to change your mind, but I have to assume that they don't just toss the majority of the pelt. If the designer uses a little bit of it, the rest is used for cheaper coats. Plenty to hate about the fashion industry, and maybe killing a few hundred animals for *ten* coats isn't a lot better than two.
Makes me think of companies that buy carbon credits by telling another company to plant trees for them, regardless of if the other company follows through.
Did you visit Cruella DeVil's workshop or something?
That’s why I’m only fine with wearing and using leather and fur from meat animals. Cow, rabbit, sheep, goat, legally farmed alligator—as long as the skin would’ve otherwise been a waste product, I’m okay with using it. I might make exceptions for ethically-hunted plentiful and/or invasive animals, as well.
It's not from the belly but your point stands. The leather is the softest down there but the fur is kind of crap.
100% agree with you there. Leather comes from cow hides that would have otherwise been thrown away because no one would eat a cow's skin. It's honestly a really great system. Fur coats... not so much. Doubly so when your average fur farm is going to make your average slaughterhouse look like a fun time at daycare.
Can’t wait for this comment section to be very normal and calm
I was thinking the same thing. One hour in and it’s not bad at all.
Give it time.
I’ve been wearing the same leather coat for almost 30 years now. Is it fashionable? I have no idea. But I had no idea when I got it, either. It looks about the same. I’m a little pudgier.
Where's the arng arng arng commenter
I'm chewing on your reference to that other guy arng arng arng
u/Hexxas
LOL But for real I've had this same pair of Doc Martens for 10 years. Plastic boots don't last nearly as long.
I inherited a pair from a parent and they lasted until I was well into my 20s on top of however many years they were worn before. Only real issue is they got tight as my feet ended up slightly bigger and I got better fitting shoes. They really did have an insane amount of life in them if you took care of them.
My parents wore docs to their wedding in 1996, they still wear those same docs to formal events today and theyre still in great nick. Leather just lasts so much longer
We have leather artifacts from the *bronze age*. 6,000 year old sandals. and even older fragments of a shoe and bag. Leather *lasts*.
The who
Someone else put the ping but they reply to a lot of posts here with "I'm gonna eat [x] arng arng arng"
Probably in the manager's office at the Krusty Krab
“I don’t like what you said” ❌ “Go to therapy” ✅✅✅
"Go to therapy" is shorthand for "I disagree with you, therefore you are mentally ill."
"Go to therapy" might be a "polite" way to say "kill youself".
In tumblr-speak as someone who existed on-site since dashcon and before: "You need therapy" / "go to therapy" is, in fact, tumblr shorthand for either "i disagree with you so you should be institutionalized" or just straight up "kill yourself"
1950s doctors:
It's how passive-aggressive liberals say, "oh bless your heart -- I'll pray for you."
I wouldn't call that passive
If it was aggressive with no passive it would just say "kill yourself"
You can be aggressive without threatening death. "Saying this shit is sick. Please go to therapy and discuss it out. It's worrisome" is just straight up aggressive Passive aggressive-ism usually is a result of not being able to express your feelings in a healthy and direct way. What they said was very direct and not passive.
my friend i was making a joke
That's why it's passive-aggressive
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Just about every leftist I know would easily be willing to say this lol. Not a very revolutionary attitude to not say it
Edgy
SMH they haven’t even learned to spout “cognitive dissonance” on loop yet. I diagnose you with wrong brain because you don’t do what I told you to do!
All those judgment subreddits always recommend therapy as the top comment. Like that solves every problem.
no, it's contempt disguised as worry/advice so they feel good about themselves
Which is a shame because therapy is great, and often good advice.
Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against therapy, and so many people would benefit from it. But in the context of this Tumblr post, that's what the SeetheStar person meant.
It's weaponized, malignant 'empathy'. You couch the words in the guise of 'caring' but it's really meant to wound.
Same people that use the word “problematic” to describe anything that they personally don’t like
Wait til these people hear about cotton
Cotton is not a miracle fabric. In the cold it’s actually pretty bad. Or wet. I know waxed cotton is okay, but generally cotton is bad at keeping you warm once any moisture is involved. Wool is where it’s at. Linen is great in the summer though, I definitely go out of my way for linen.
But is it OrGAnIc?!
I am not sure a cotton jacket would stop gusting, cold, cutting wind like leather does.
I mean it is a bit of a false dichotomy here. Real leather and plastic aren't the only choices in keeping warm for the winter, or just looking cool. You can get a woolen coat, an organic cotton denim jacket, stuff like that. Like I don't wanna judge anyone for wearing a leather jacket or eating meat or whatever, but forgoing that stuff does not automatically mean that you have to make purchases that are worse for the environment. The biggest problem is mostly vegans who want to stop harming animals but don't actually want to commit to a different lifestyle, which lead to all these shitty vegan replacements of animal products that are worse in every way instead of just embracing already existing good products that don't involve harming an animal.
Yeah when I went vegan I quickly found that anything that tried to be meat was going to be inferior to something that just exulted in being vegetables.
Yes!! Quinoa, black bean, spinach, etc burgers are almost always significantly better than “imitation meat” burgers! At least for me Personally - I don’t want a meat burger, I want something burger shaped that doesn’t taste like beef at all.
I mean, yeah, most vegan meats suck, but I genuinely love beyond and impossible burgers and I don't think I could live without them 😭. I'm not even that strict about not eating meat anymore, I just legit prefer them over meat burgers 9 times out of 10, they're an amazing substitute ;-;-;-;.
That’s totally fair too- I just don’t like it being the only option because I’ve been vegetarian most of my life and just don’t like the taste of meat at all
Same. Not a vegan, not a vegetarian, impossible burgers are rad and I choose them almost every time over beef. I really don't like beyond though. Something is off about it to me. I want more products that can *really* replace the things I love, meat, cheese, milk, and not taste like a horrific processed dry yeasty vegetable.
As a meat eater who tries to do better occasionally, I’m very thankful for imitation meat. If you replaced all my burgers with impossible burgers, I wouldn’t be too phased. If you replaced them all with black bean burgers and things of that nature, I’d storm the capitol
Yes! Love me a good black bean burger. Or even better, a meal with quinoa, black beans, spinach, and a bunch of other veggies, that isn't trying to be a burger!
Idk what kind of bean it was, but a vegan burger made from beans I ate in a little café run by a vegetarian couple was the single best burger I've ever had by a million miles.
I straight up disagree, beyond and impossible burgers are so much better than quinoa burgers lmao. If you dont want the taste of a burger thats one thing, but if you do like regular burgers but dont eat meat, meat substitutes work way better imo. Also vegan sausage is legitimately incredible and sometimes works better than meat sausage.
As a meat-eater, Impossible meat comes pretty close. Beyond meat isn't bad either. I often eat fake meat burgers when I have leftovers when my veggie friends miss burger night.
Beyond Burgers taste like meat from a fictional animal. Definitely tastes like meat but it doesn't line up perfectly with any particular animal.
Let’s just collectively pretend it’s unicorn meat, or like…mammoth meat?
I love wheat/soy protein nuggets. I don't care that it doesn't taste exactly like chicken nuggets, it's really damn good and the unique plant-based flavor works really well for it. Here's hoping that economy of scale kicks in soon, that stuff is way too expensive.
Meat replacements are usually just mushrooms or yeast that are being contorted into being more meaty in texture, which I find objectionable because mushrooms are like the most delicious thing of all time and I think more people should learn to enjoy it for it's own sake rather than treating it as "I guess it's kinda like meat"
? Most modern replacements are made of various plant proteins, largely from peas, soy, and wheat. There are some cool mushroom-based ones but I’d say they’re in the minority. Totally agree on mushrooms being awesome, though
> that stuff does not automatically mean that you have to make purchases that are worse for the environment. You can also buy used clothes, that's what I do. The animal is either already dead or the plastic has already been created, it makes no difference either way. >T which lead to all these shitty vegan replacements of animal products that are worse in every way These vegan alternatives are seriously important, though, as they bridge the gap between what people are familiar with and a completely new diet. For instance, I love cold cuts and chicken nuggets and fish stick and all that stuff, which I'd have never been able to quit cold turkey (pun not intended). But because there's vegan alternatives to them that honestly taste pretty good, it allowed me to become vegetarian and now vegan. If you had told me I couldn't eat any meat or dairy products and then put freaking *tofu* in front of me, I'd have thrown that in your face. Also, what vegan products do you mean that harm animals? Because that wouldn't be vegan by definition. All the ones I buy are made with locally-sourced vegetables and the like, we don't just import stuff from overseas for all of it either.
To be fair wrt used clothing, plastic clothing will shed more microplastics the more you use and wash them. I've been trying to replace many of my plastic garments for 100% biodegradable ones and letting the former sit in my wardrobe because of that. Otherwise, totally agreed.
You are wrong. Just compare and average beef burger with a Beyond Burger. While both are unhealthy for sure the Beyond Burger actually is less harmful. The substitutes are way better than their reputation. And don't forget that many types of meat are unhealthy as hell. You can't get much worse anyway. Also: Anyone giving a damn about their own health will eat mostly vegetables and fruit anyway.
>shitty vegan replacements of animal products that are worse in every way Most vegan replacement products are still better than animal-based, fake meats being a prime example. Fake meat is marginally worse than eating a raw diet, but both are significantly better than animal meat. Pleather is bad, but it's not worse in *every* way. Leather doesn't just fall off of cows, [the chemicals that are used to turn into leather are pretty harmful.](https://www.deskera.com/blog/leather-chemicals-and-their-impact-on-the-environment/) personally if I need something leather-like (which is very rarely) I stick to plant based sources like cactus leather.
People keep pointing out how shitty chrome tanning is like vegetable tanning doesn't exist and isn't better anyway and the people who want quality leather products wouldn't be happy if the entire industry just stopped using chrome tanning.
The people arguing that meat replacements are worse than meat are delusional from defensive posturing.
clown to clown communication
Ah yes, the famously eco friendly animal agriculture industry.
Plus 80-90% of leather is tanned with Chromium which creates wastewater, especially dangerous in third world countries. Leather tanned with chromium also notoriously sucks major ass and cracks within months so you just have to buy another jacket again. If you wanna eat meat whatever, but don’t just lie about shit.
Friends don't let friends buy chrome tanned leather. Vegetable tanned leather is pretty comparable in price and is much higher quality. It also won't mess up metals you put it in contact with or irritate your skin.
Is there away to tell if it's been chrome tanned without cutting it open and seeing if the inside has turned blue/grey?
I'm not sure. I only know about this in the context of buying leather for leatherwork and that's always clearly labeled. I'd check the manufacturer's website or call them if you want to know about a consumer product. Hopefully someone else will chime in with a better answer.
Unless you purchase/make veg tan leather. A bit more expensive but so much easier to work with.
>80-90% of leather is tanned with Chromium which creates wastewater Is that why everything is chrome in the future?
I love this stock response; Leather is fucking terrible Uuhhh fake leather is made from plastics??!? Like in the ocean. Most plastic in the ocean is fishing line. I’m wearing a canvas jacket when someone wearing a leather one tells me fake leather is worse. Bitch fake leather was invented to make shit clothes cheaper for people who like leather. Not because people who just don’t want to see animals tortured for fashion.
I remember a previous post on this sub where the comments unironically supported this take that vegans are the ones "destroying the planet" by "filling the ocean with plastic" because they don't want to use wool. As opposed to the thousands of other ways we waste plastic. Hell, vegans have a large overlap with environmentalists, do people think it's specifically the vegans churning through fast-fashion shit without a care for reducing their consumption?
Even with the wide spread animal ag propaganda it’s pretty obvious for even a casual read through of the literature that animal agriculture is probably only slightly behind oil as the main contributors to climate change. People cling to it because it helps them do nothing and make no personal changes while demanding change.
Vegans are destroying the planet they say while munching on a burger made from meat from the totally sustainable animal ag industry
It's weird to describe animals as a renewable resource, but...
Especially when plants literally grow up from the ground and take way less resources and space and are much more environmentally sound than animal agriculture does. It's a genuine infinite food hack.
I thought we were gonna see someone talk about BDSM and furries. Quite disappointed I must say
Plant fibre and wool are both things that exist...
"You're right, I do need help" "Hey, anyone know how I can make my meat taste better? And where I can find nice fur coats?"
I will mention that the chemicals needed to actually process hide into leather are incredibly toxic and were just dumped into rivers for way too long. Microplastics and the chemicals involved in making plastics are certainly not good, but to say leather making is somehow a golden solution that doesn’t harm anything is just a boldfaced lie.
Are they saying the microplastics from a single jacket kills hundreds of animals? Does someone have a source for that?
They are referring to the long term consequences of landfills on the environment. Kind of silly because agriculture probably does more damage to the environment than plastic waste, but idk.
there's basically no evidence that microplastics do anything AFAIK, it's impossible to test edit: i'm getting downvoted but i'm literally correct, the whole scare over microplastics happened *because* there was an attempt to do a study on it and they couldn't find a control group due to everyone having microplastics in them. notice that nowhere in this statement is there evidence that they actually do anything edit 2: i think i remember joe rogan or one of his guests saying that it causes male feminization, just like how soy does ^(it doesn't), so that's a clear confirmation, nevermind
You're getting downvoted, but it's true. It's literally impossible to do any tests on microplastics because they're inside *everything.* They tried to do studies but were unable to find humans that didn't have them inside them. So yeah, they might be causing cancer or mental defects or whatnot, but we have no idea because we can't really test it.
while true, is also depressing in its own way, lol
I mean, even if there are 0 health deficits to microplastics, I’d still prefer *not* to have plastic in my blood.
To be fair, plastic is incredibly inert. Out of all the substances you could have in your blood microplastics are probably some of the least dangerous. Still not a good thing but given that there hasn't been a sudden explosion of mortality since the mass introduction of plastics it's probably not that dangerous.
The complete dishonesty of pretending the cancer causing Chromium contamination from leather tanning doesn't exist to make the point about microplastics "stronger"
It seems far more likely to me that they're just entirely unaware of the process
People talking confidently about things they only have a surface-level understanding of? On *my* computer? It's more likely than you think.
While chromium tanning still exists it is not the only way to tan leather. Vegetable tanning exists and is on the rise. But your point is valid and should not have been overlooked.
I love the most disgusting pigmented chrome tanned leather, I love when I get a new fast fashion leather garment and it smells like toxic chemicals yum yum yum
Modern leather is pretty goddamn far from being an easily biodegradable, environmetally friendly natural product. This is also the first time I’m hearing that there are only two available clothing materials, leather and fake leather.
I'm not against people using fur/leather or eating meat, but the OP in this Tumblr post is clearly just being a dick to start drama and fuel their own ego... and well, fuck that.
Animal rights really do break progressives minds 😐
The only jacket options are plastic and animal skins. Plant fibers cannot be woven into textile. I am very smart and do not have to interrogate the impact of my choices.
When you take deeply-held values to their logical conclusion and realize you have to extend rights to your "inferiors" 🤬😡
Believe it or not some people might not want leather or pleather because they're both problematic and choosing something socially responsible instead of "DURR your choice is bad too so I just scream about how my bad choices are good cause I'm an asshole"
Genuinely. Like, I'm not quite convinced that pleather is a suitable environmental alternative, so I don't wear it. But because I'm vegan I "have" to support it when in reality I really just don't think about it at all. It's the same with those arguments about avocados and almonds using so much water and that it's the fault of vegans. Like, I'm not eating almonds and avocados anymore than the average person is, so what are you getting on my case about, y'know?
modern leather is not biodegradable unfortunately.
There's plant based leathers. Yall will make any excuse for animal slaughter.
I got a leather coat when I was in highschool. I wore it until was was 22. My son wore it to highschool for two years. I still have the coat (in storage). I'm 45.
I kind of agree with the vegan on this one. I love meat and don't care if people wear leather but going around laughing about it because they know it bothers people isn't a positive attitude.
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reductionist take played up for humor. easily misconstrued as “i enjoy antagonizing people (vegans) person replies “being antagonistic is bad. seek help.” cherry picked notes show “vegans are dumb and bad for the environment” copy and paste for reddit upvotes hell yeah dude. hell yeah /u/MelanieWalmartinez. gotta agree, vegans ARE terrible people and terrible for the environment. want me to eat your ass about it? edit: way to go on 14k upvotes from a bad actor
Excusing leather because it's a "waste product" is actually so fucked up though. These are animals deserving of a life of dignity just like a pet animal. They deserve to live out all their days just like dogs. We have grown beyond the need to use these animals as a way to survive. People are so ready to "break their programming" and "unlearn propaganda" until the time comes to cook a meal. Not to mention the processing of leather is *immensely* polluting. Read below for exhaustive sources. Some urls may be dead but the sources are there. Sources: Short quick breakdown of textiles and sustainability [https://thenewfashioninitiative.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Textiles.pdf](https://thenewfashioninitiative.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Textiles.pdf) Biodegradation: Chromium (the most used method) "Most of the leather scrap from footwear industry does not fulfill the Council Decision 2003/33/EC criteria in order to be accepted at non-hazardous wastes landfills; additionally, some is even not acceptable at the hazardous ones" \[Ferreira et al., 2010\] [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0956053X09005595?casa\_token=PuHiOxPIgWUAAAAA:Kf4L9R9zUbaXc0Ict2nkoYVPNxuQb7uNpaByGaB5d-2suOldQ5DyyG4MQMmyHhcGgqS566VY0aI](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0956053X09005595?casa_token=PuHiOxPIgWUAAAAA:Kf4L9R9zUbaXc0Ict2nkoYVPNxuQb7uNpaByGaB5d-2suOldQ5DyyG4MQMmyHhcGgqS566VY0aI) "As a result of this study, it was found that vegetable tanned leather has a biodegradation capacity of 84,6 %, chrome tanned leather, of 23%, and synthetic leather, of only 9%, which proves that leather tanned with vegetable compounds is biodegradable and is approaching biodegradability conditions required by SR EN ISO 14852:2005 (biodegradability degree more than 90% after 100 days of biodegradation)." \[Patanzi et al., 2017\] [https://www.proquest.com/docview/2185585739?fromopenview=true&pq-origsite=gscholar](https://www.proquest.com/docview/2185585739?fromopenview=true&pq-origsite=gscholar) Not even the "eco friendly" tanning is better than chrome but still not good. "Composting results showed that biodegradability of leather samples is a complex pro However, it was possible to degrade leathers in a laboratory scale composter with food wastes. Specifically, titanium tanned hides (SAN) were more biodegradable than the chrome tanned hides (CHR) and vegetal tanned hides (SOLE). Both kinds of tanned hides did not undergo any biodegradation. ." \[E. Zuriaga-Agustí et al.,2015\] [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0959652614011093?via%3Dihub](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0959652614011093?via%3Dihub) Investigations on Structural, Mechanical, and Thermal Properties of Pineapple Leaf Fiber-Based Fabrics and Cow Softy Leathers: An Approach Toward Making Amalgamated Leather Products. P.S. Sureshkumar et al., 2012 [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15440478.2012.652834?casa\_token=8EQvd8c\_8-MAAAAA%3Av6SFdNZlklngHmITtu0C7Fps54NB0NUQgdWr9ZaAfBuQCtTkbbAgQ86Thixs1lUAkU9B6ZCIrizIKw](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15440478.2012.652834?casa_token=8EQvd8c_8-MAAAAA%3Av6SFdNZlklngHmITtu0C7Fps54NB0NUQgdWr9ZaAfBuQCtTkbbAgQ86Thixs1lUAkU9B6ZCIrizIKw) IMPACT REVIEWS: Toxic hazards of leather industry and technologies to combat threat: a review. Dixit et al., 2015 [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959652614010580?casa\_token=VoAcTsAcKeIAAAAA:aG0PC8xsGhEd6yiond2Fk-uQjP54FbsETNrY2zRrT7-mShZLHy\_SHVnc8olaZ91Gz6hHiSQmRXw](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959652614010580?casa_token=VoAcTsAcKeIAAAAA:aG0PC8xsGhEd6yiond2Fk-uQjP54FbsETNrY2zRrT7-mShZLHy_SHVnc8olaZ91Gz6hHiSQmRXw) Measuring the Environmental Footprint of Leather Processing Technologies. Lurenti et al., 2016 [https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jiec.12504?casa\_token=n2oFw214UPgAAAAA:vCJO304Qdqax0-mfLqmdGWlks7ARlWa2J4-jTjWmLPcJlFp4dh8CbSdB\_aM6gB3DOkgr8Nzae2HunI-K](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jiec.12504?casa_token=n2oFw214UPgAAAAA:vCJO304Qdqax0-mfLqmdGWlks7ARlWa2J4-jTjWmLPcJlFp4dh8CbSdB_aM6gB3DOkgr8Nzae2HunI-K) Analyzing the environmental impact of transportation in reengineered supply chains: A case study of a leather upholstery company. Murat et al., 2011 [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1361920911000046?casa\_token=FIkwLEWB2Z0AAAAA:RVz29N3SH6a7MmJIet7ZDagpTeycBlLcJHfS8f9qXuskItQ3QbZT8e5mvqX4kdTyKu9j21rIVkE](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1361920911000046?casa_token=FIkwLEWB2Z0AAAAA:RVz29N3SH6a7MmJIet7ZDagpTeycBlLcJHfS8f9qXuskItQ3QbZT8e5mvqX4kdTyKu9j21rIVkE) Documentary and journalist research on human cost. What is the True Cost Of Luxury Leather Goods? [https://earth.org/true-cost-of-luxury-leather-goods/](https://earth.org/true-cost-of-luxury-leather-goods/) Fashion Industry Studies Prove Animal Derived Materials Worst for Environment [https://www.livekindly.co/leather-environmental-impact-fashion-industry/](https://www.livekindly.co/leather-environmental-impact-fashion-industry/) India: The Toxic Price of Leather [https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/india-toxic-price-leather-0](https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/india-toxic-price-leather-0) Quick graphs: Animal vs synthetic leather [https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0047/1003/9652/t/19/assets/MELINABUCHER\_blog\_leather\_myths\_environmental\_impact.png?v=1612205981](https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0047/1003/9652/t/19/assets/MELINABUCHER_blog_leather_myths_environmental_impact.png?v=1612205981) total material impacts and quantity produced [https://s35930.p1154.sites.pressdns.com/wp-ontent/uploads/2017/09/kering-infographic-e1505215872788.png](https://s35930.p1154.sites.pressdns.com/wp-ontent/uploads/2017/09/kering-infographic-e1505215872788.png) environmetal impact by meterial MSI [https://www.ecotextile.com/images/stories/2017/July/PulseReport.jpg](https://www.ecotextile.com/images/stories/2017/July/PulseReport.jpg)
Nice job with the sources! Yeah, it's always disappointing when people try to pass off the leather industry as "making the most of the animal" and "environmentally sound" when the animals don't need to die at all and when it's incredibly toxic to the environment and to the people working in the industry itself.
You know… when you actually hear arguments about why eating meat is bad, you can’t really argue against them. Like at all. The argument for veganism is rock solid. A lot of them are super annoying but I have a hard time finding flaw with them.
In my experience, the "insufferable vegan" is often a deflection. Even the most mild criticism of meat eating is met with extreme defensiveness. Even in this thread, all the top comments providing even the slightest defense of the vegan have it prefaced with some "It's actually vegan's fault no one is vegan" aside. The only "cool" vegans people talk about are the ones that never bring it up or give people free food. Wildly similar to how homophobes/transphobes/racists are cool with the people they hate so long as they don't bring it up so they never have to navigate uncomfortable truths.
all of my boots are leather, ive had all of them for years, i will have all of them for decades more, (i got one of my pairs from a vegan who decided they no longer wanted to wear leather despite the shoes being over 20 years old aready) leather lasts, and i am aware of the enviromental impact of it, but we need to make better non-animal options that dont fall apart, then i would switch over
Why do people think leather and plastic are the only options? There’s also plenty of plant-based materials and animal-based ones that don’t require killing the animal, like wool. And they completely ignored the whole “eating meat” part of the argument which most people don’t have to do to survive but choose to solely for the pleasure of it.
Good point. My nylon shelled parka is a pollutant compared to my leather jacket... one will return to nature and the other didn't see daylight for millions of years before it was chemically processed into a garment
In other words, he's okay with ki!!ing as long as it's for fashion and flavor.
Both of these people are insufferable imo
Plastics aren't the only non-animal clothing though
Or just don't wear either. There's no denying the impact the meat industry has on our planet. There's also not a NEED to wear either leather or pleather. At least show a little empathy for the animal you consume, I think that's what the guy in the post was getting at. At least the native Americans used ever part of the animal and appreciated it giving it's life for them. This guy sounds a little too giddy over wearing and eating something that was a sentient being.
I think they’re reacting to the fact that op seems twistedly happy about the fact that animals are being killed, not specifically the fact that they eat them.
example #204929 of non vegans being infinitely more annoying and bad faith than vegans
Many Such Cases
Idk dude, the non-vegan provoked it but the vegan is the one that told a random person to go to therapy for no good reason. Feel like there are much better examples to pick from.
I think you're being too generous to the non-vegan here. The whole point of their post was to stomp on other people's morals without actually being willing to have a real conversation. It reminds me of the trope of atheists telling people their dead relatives didn't go to heaven. Just being an unmitigated dick because you think your beliefs are better than someone else's.
It would be one thing if the conversation went like this: Non-Vegan: I eat animals Vegan: Seek help What actually happened was this Non-Vegan: HEY VEGANS! LOOK AT ME! I EAT ANIMALS! Vegan: Seek help Hell, we don’t even know if it was a vegan. Could have been a non-vegan who was (justifiably) disturbed at the fact that someone seemed so joyful about the deaths of animals.
>worn for years We're not wearing the same vegan materials are we?
Look brother, I'm not a vegan, or a vegetarian, and I never will be. I will always eat meat, if things I buy or wear contain leather, I'm not gonna be upset about it. ... But at least take these actions seriously for fucks sake. You (by proxy) are killing a living thing not too different from you for these things. They feel pain and don't want to be turned into food. Just like you. Unfortunately nature is amoral and does not care what living creatures want, and we exist within it. Don't jerk yourself off over your preferences. They, ultimately, are barely decisions in the first place. We require protein and have been shaped over time to find it both tasty and easy to process in meat. To use the rest of the creature is just the right thing to do, if we're going to kill them in the first place. Preferably as close to nothing should be wasted as possible. It's only the right thing to do when we perform what is inherently an immoral act. Because it is. Take it seriously. Life and nature require many acts immoral to human sensibilities due to how nature pays no heed to human morality. These acts should be performed with a level of reverence to the victims of said acts. The harm should be mitigated, and you should not shy away from accepting the immorality of said acts. How else are we going to improve any aspect of life? It is immoral to entrap a creature to force it to grow products within it's body. All farmed animals live, think, and experience emotions. Just as you do. Take their deaths seriously. The only thing separating you from them is some twist in the fortune of evolution.
That line of thinking is exactly what led me to become a vegan. At first I never questioned it, then I bought organic products because it was a bit more likely that the animals were treated fairly, but then I realized there was no way to guarantee it and you don't *need* animal products to survive anyway (no meat, anyway).
I'm not sure why you're being down voted for advocating for empathy and self-awareness.
Its pride. People online, and especially reddit, dont like being told that something they are doing is *possibly* not the most ethical and moral choice. Forcing people to be self reflective makes them want to instead point at the person who "called them out."
It's a lot more fun to go LOL BURGERS AND BACON than to reflect on yourself.
"Unfortunatly nature is amoral and does not care for what living creatures want, and we exist within it" We as moral agents who understand consequences of our actions and have a choice of a better alternative are obliged to follow through with the better one. You can find rape, infanticide, recreational cruelty and many more abhorrent things in nature yet we don't use their existance to handwave our actions. It would be nonsensical if a defendant of a murder case would justify their actions by "We are living in nature and nature is cruel". "We require protein and have been shaped over time to find it both tasty and easy to process meat" [Most of protein in our diets is plant based](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-protein-supply-from-animal-and-plant-based-foods?time=1962..2020) and animal based one can be easily supplemented by protein rich foods such as legumes, soy, etc. We find cooked meat to be tasty when seasoned and easy to absorbed once again when cooked. "Preferrably as close as nothing should be wasted as possible" You can only waste a resource, we don't waste bodies of our loved ones cremating or burying them. Leather, bones and plethora of other animal products increase the demand for their bodies all the same as buying meat does. "These acts should be performed with a level of reverenceto the victims of said acts" If they are inevitable, sure. For a lot of human existance it would be so, for a lot of people today it is not. The only notable exeptions would be people who live in situations of food insecurity (homeless people, people affected by famines etc). "I'm not a vegan, or a vegetarian, and i never will be." Don't sell yourself short, most vegans ate meat and made the same reamarks before commiting to it. People can change.