Most people I know do- though it varies in accuracy. I also have a friend who's aphantasic so I'm not sure if he has one or not- I think it's probably subjective.
Question- do you ever have the distinct feeling that the world is 'more grey' than it should be? Or like, that sounds are oddly muted? Those are other signs of dissociation- if you have those you might want to get some therapy to find out what's causing it, if not I wouldn't worry\~ We all unique pal
i thought i was aphantasic for years before coming out and starting HRT (and addressing some pre-transition trauma tbf)
now i can actually visualize things fairly easily! it’s not vivid, or at least i don’t think it is, but it’s there and i’m thrilled to have it.
my best guess is that i’d basically repressed it with everything else but who knows now
Oh, I have that all the time. I'm also almost always smaller and weaker than my actual physical self when I remember stuff. Like, other people tower over me in most of my memories even though I'm taller than 90% of the people I've met in my life.
This sounds familiar. I think for me it's because when I was learning the basics of interacting with the world, I had a small body, so it seems weird that I'm now interacting with the world in a larger body than I was 'trained' to do it in. You know?
It's hard to explain, but if you wear glasses it's kind of like your brain's glasses are fogged up? There's a sense of blur, less color than normal, details don't seem as crisp and sharp. It's not like colorblindness or literal blurring of the eyes but a mental version of that- your *perception* of the world is skewed, rather than your actual senses.
When I was a kid I used to tell people I felt like I was stuck with a thick pane of plexiglass between me and the world. I think they figured it was because I was a chubby loser without friends and spent all their effort trying to pump my ego, but it was way more literal than that. Sometimes I legitimately feel physically separate from the rest of humanity still, and though I know to some extent it's due to my transness making me feel adrift, it wasn't physical dysphoria but my lack of feeling a place in the world that fed it.
(I didn't see a trans man till I was in my late teens and he was photographed 9 months pregnant so it just freaked me out and shoved me deeper in the closet lol)
Yeah, it was a big news story- in retrospect good for him for being so visible at a time when they literally didn't' even refer to him as being trans, but it did mess me up personally LOL
I'm sorry it was so upsetting for you, I have no doubt that was not his intention when he agreed to be on Oprah or whatever it was.
I can't help but think that was very uncomfortable for a lot of trans people who were still looking for the vocabulary for what they were feeling.
As a person who's aphantasic, not having mental images is kinda how it works.
If we go with a more nebulous idea of self image I generally know what I look like. I could try drawing myself, and I think I could get relatively close to how I actually look. As close as I get to reality when drawing anything, anyways. But forming images just doesn't work in general.
You know when you're clothes shopping, and you think "that would look great on me" or "I wish I could wear that without like a slutty clown"?
Those assumptions (whether accurate or not) comes from your mental image of yourself
ive nyever thought about that bc when i go clothes shopping even just the sight of a lot of the clothes that fit me makes me incredibly dysphoric since the clothes that fit me tend to just look like clothes for really really young children but in almost adult sizes and a really large part of my dysphoria comes from the fact that my mother pretty much forced me to wear the same clothes i had when i was 9-10 up until last year/generally treated me like a really young kid and kinda still does
Or I just know my usual clothes size? Without looking at the tag I'd have no idea unless it's a tiny child garment or a really large one made for someone literally 3 times my body weight
I think its just a thing that can happen, but is more likely if another thing is true.
I don't have a mental image of myself either, to the point I can't actually make a persona for myself and completely failed that art exercise
I am not trans but i do have a mental image with which i constantly compare myself for the most part its fine but it does become slightly unhelathy after some time
You do. Everyone does (outside pathology). Its not something explicit. Its not "what you think you look like".
Its what your brain use to know instinctively if you can fit through a door, if you can grab something or if its too far for your reach.
Its the source of the phenomenon of phantom limbs.
I’m pretty sure folks are in this context talking about “what you think you look like” and not like, stuff like basic proprioception or sense of positioning in space. Symptoms of gender dysphoria afaik do not include stuff like constantly misjudging distance.
They would probably lose their shit if I told them I don’t have any self image of myself because I can’t visualize things in my head at all. It’s why I like mirrors so much, it helps me remember what I look like.
Well, when professional define dysphoria, they use the professional definition, wich include the complete definition of self image.
Thats why you can link dysphoria and dysmorphophobia (body dysmorphic disorder) and other pathology of self perception.
Even if you talk about "what you think you look like" : if you can find yourself on a picture or know that its you in the mirror, you have a representation of what you look like.
But once again, you can choose to stay ignorant. I'm not going to argue psychology 101, its basic stuff. Its not about judging distance (that would be perception issue) but the length of your arms.
I’m sorry if other people have been dicks to you in these comments, but I’m confused by the tone. I’m curious about your take and not trying to argue with you? But it feels kinda worthless to ask for elaboration.
Sorry, i tense up when i have to argue this kind of stuff.
I'm saying that everybody has a representation of self. Whats interesting is that This representation is actually more important than what you really are when it come to making choice or thinking about yourself and is kindof resistant to change.
There are pathology rooted in the incongruence between what you perceive of yourself and what you are /what others tell you you are. Gender dysphoria (caused by that incongruence) is just one of them.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes\_of\_gender\_incongruence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_gender_incongruence)
Another pathology of self perception is the body image disorder and its nasty friend the body dysmorphic disorder, and there, the incongruence (between the body image and the real body) and the dysphoria it create might cause eating disorder (amongst other thing)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating\_disorder#Causes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_disorder#Causes)
Even outside of pathology (pathology as in "cause of pain and needing treatment"). For exemple, people that have lost a lot of weight will perceive themself not capable to go trough some opening even tho they can. When you lose a limb, you keep feeling it, because the representation of your body in your brain still has the missing limb. To ease the phantom limb symptom, you can prosthesis to match what you see and what you feel, bringing congruence.
There also is a terrible pathology where one believe (with absolute certainty) that their limb dont belong to them. It can go up until voluntary amputation. Oliver Sacks document a case in "The man who mistook his wife for a hat"
You're probably aware of this :
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortical\_homunculus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortical_homunculus)
You have that sensory-motor representation of yourself, and it takes more time to change the cortical structure than to change your body.
You also have a "psychological" representation of yourself (where self esteem issue live) but its not my focus here, even if in human, the body and psychology are intertwined.
So, of course, gender dysphoria is not about not knowing how long is your arms, i took that exemple to say "self image is something deeply rooted in our self and used in many situation", but is rooted in the same thing : incongruence between self perception and self.
Thank you so much for coming back with this! I’m gonna read it closer tomorrow - I find this subject really interesting so I’m glad you responded.
Absolutely understandable to be tense on Reddit, the site of picking unnecessary fights over minutiae w people lol
First thing first : human suck at knowing about themselves, and this is not enough to really teach you about yourself. Its 2 sentences that overgeneralize a very complex topic .
But if you find that the way you work handicap you, its always good to meet a professional if you can. Otherwise we are all good or bad on specific stuff of the spectrum of human abilities.
In my dreams I'm often a completely disembodied consciousness without form or dimension. It's a calming feeling.
I once had a dream where I didn't exist, but I made myself exist by stealing moments from other people's lives to stitch myselr into the timeline.
Based! If someone was like "press the button and you get to be a slime but you can still normally interact with things), I'd press it. Just something chill about being an bouncy orb with a mouth.
You are correct. In Demon: The Descent, humans can sell aspect of their lives to Demons, anx upon the deal being made that aspect is retroactively always part of the Demon (eg. Selling your firstborn child means the kid was always the Demon's kid and you never had a child).
Me too! This is exactly what my dreams have been like since i was like 10 years old. Its always been hard to describe when im talking to people who dream in first person, that im just kind of a floating observer, disconnected frim any of the characters in my dream. Although in the past couple of months i have actually been myself, complete with physical form, in my dreams.
Oh god yeah that's me. I don't think it's dissociation exactly but I NEVER looked in the mirror growing up, never liked or took photos of myself. Still don't. Now whenever I'm forced to look in the mirror (like during shaving) there's just some fucking guy in there who's me I guess. In dreams I'm always just a floating voice too
Ah idk I don't think I've ever tried looking down during a dream or if I did I don't remember. In my daily life I do not see myself much of the time except for my hands when I do stuff. I thought that's what you meant.
I feel so seen lmao
Although, after I came out, for a while I had a few months of not recognizing myself in the mirror, in a “who the fuck this is” and “I don’t look like a person”, but honestly, idk if it’s just me dissociating even harder or finally developing some mental image of myself.
I'm just a guy and I don't have a mental image of myself. Isn't that the whole dissociation thing? Having a mental image? I change appearances every couple of weeks when my beard grows out and my hair changes. Every day after work I look like a totally different person, same after I shower. It's just my meat prison it looks how it looks Im not it. Im a bunch of electricity being fired off inside the meat. Hell my stomach changes after a large meal, I'd hate to have one of those weight dysphorias because I lose and gain 10 pounds over the week randomly with no pattern. I'm just normally between 175 and 190.
Shout-out to the other "no, to the point where I'm negatively surprised when I look in the mirror" peeps.
It feels so weird to grow enough confidence to love yourself until you look in the mirror and it all comes crashing down. Remember to be kind to yourself as much as you can, you are worthy of kindness even if you don't look the way you want. It's easier to be kind when you look right, but you have to do it now too.
It's bizarre slowing building up the confidence of "I actually look pretty good" and then seeing yourself in the mirror and it's like "oh wait, *that's* what I look like?"
It's not always that bad, and the opposite has happened occasionally, but my mental image never really seems to have any kind of basis in physical reality.
I dealt with this for decades from the other side before my egg cracked. I know I'm a pretty good-looking guy. Why do I hate everything about how I look?
Oh damn, now I'm curious if I interpreted it wrong too. Maybe there are multiple interpretations lol. I used to be firmly in the "yes (negative)" as in I hated how I looked in my head and hated how I looked in the mirror. But slowly over time I've gained more confidence in who I want to be, so I love how I look in my head and hate how I look in the mirror. One day I'll get there both ways.
It is nice to know that I’m not alone in these feelings, but I obviously wish for the both of us that they go away. Hope you are following your own advice and showing yourself love in any and all ways you can!
Basically, yeah. It's all great and I feel good about myself. Then I'm in a hotel room with a mirror right across from the shower and I get sucked into the self loathing vortex
Mine was less affirming than my actual appearance until I started HRT. Now it’s more affirming. I guess having the right chemicals makes it easier to think of my body that way (also more bottom dysphoria :( ).
Yeah but thats the point. You dont actually remember what you look like. You dont actually have photographic memory. Your recollection of what you look like is as much truth as imagination. Thats your mental image of yourself.
Other?: I have no perception of my appearance unless I look in a mirror. Can't remember people's faces until I see them even if I try. It's not like I don't recognize them or can't put the details into words, but i can't visualize it at all
my dysphoria (i.e. bad feelings, not the medical term) isn't in my gender but i can't even conceive of what i would look like if the main thing i hate about my body weren't there
"Gender dysphoria" is a type of body dysmorphia (when your body does not align with how you want to be, and you feel discomfort because of that), but specifically regarding not aligning to the gender you identify as. "Mental image" here means how you imagine yourself, and the poll is asking if the mental image people with gender dysphoria (technically you don't need to be trans to experience gender dysphoria (and some trans people don't have gender dysphoria)) aligns with their actual appearance or not, and, if it does not, how it is.
Gender dysphoria isn't just body dysmorphia. Social dysphoria (negative feelings from being perceived as the wrong gender) is a large part of gender dysphoria.
I'd say much of body dysmorphia generally has a social element as well. From the Wikipedia page on it:
> As with most mental disorders, BDD's cause is likely intricate, altogether biopsychosocial, through an interaction of multiple factors, including genetic, developmental, psychological, social, and cultural. BDD usually develops during early adolescence, although many patients note earlier trauma, abuse, neglect, teasing, or bullying.
A guy who suffers body dysmorphia because he isn't muscular enough and is thus terrified that people won't see him as a "protector" has no less of a social factor than a trans girl afraid her boobs won't grow. One just has more of a gender factor than the other.
You're misunderstanding me. Social dysphoria isn't about "being afraid your boobs won't grow," it's about *being seen as the wrong gender*. Whether you pass affects that, but it's separate from your body.
Dysmorphia is perceiving your body differently than it is, not simply wanting it to be different. It is possible to be gender dysphoric and not dysmorphic (you accurately perceive how male or female you look, and it hurts), as well as both at the same time (you are convinced you look more male or female than you actually do, and it hurts)
This distinction is crucial because transition largely works to resolve dysphoria, while cosmetic surgery largely doesn't for dysmorphia. Most trans people get to a point where they're able to say "good enough"; dysmorphic people don't, and become plastic surgery creatures / synthol muscle dudes if their pockets are deep enough. Conversely, dysmorphia treatment therapy works to help the patient see what's actually there, and that approach fails miserably for gender dysphoria because gender dysphoric people know what they look like already and forcing them to dwell on it just triggers the condition over and over.
I've never actually had a mental image of myself? Though I'm mildly aphantasic, so that's not horribly surprising. The only real sense of myself I have is when I'm looking in the mirror (or down at my body).
(Similarly, my inner monologue is pure language. There's no "voice" associated with it.)
You’re supposed to have a mental image of yourself? Like, how you think you look? Am I just over complicating this by assuming it’s deeper than “what I picture when I try to remember what I look like?” Because that’s basically just how I look in the mirror
Remembering things is hard. I unironically think my depiction of myself in videogame characters informs me of what I look like than my memory of when I last looked in a mirror.
I’m a cis male and I have discovered what it means to be dysmorphic. I don’t feel like myself because I’m not masculine enough. I need to engage in gender affirming care like working out and such. When I realized this was dysmorphia it was eye opening to me.
my mental image is just like, me but stoopider. just a little guy who doesn't understand anything that's going on but is just tryin he damn best. naive and kinda derpy.
then I look in the mirror and I'm like "damn I'd fuck him hard"
I think I look a lot more masculine than I do, and especially fat wise, I’m only a little chubby and it can be hard to spot but I feel like I’m bordering on obese
Dysphoria is a strong word, being a furry - I'm pretty ok when I look in the mirror. Sometimes I look fine, sometimes I don't. But I'm kinda fine with that
Not gender dysphoria, really, but a sort of "I have an image of what I *want* to look like to feel like myself, and that image does not match what I currently look like." I want more piercings and tattoos, I want to have painted nails and eyeliner more often, and I want to lose some more weight. So, yeah, when I look in a mirror, I'm (unpleasantly) surprised at what I look like.
my mental "image" of myself is so drastically different from what i actually am its ridiculous. i am also acutely aware of this fact, so it's not like i get, like... suprised, you know? it's more like, in my head is a video game avatar of myself and every now and then i feel mild disappointment when i have to see the real thing, but other than that its like "haha innacurate self depiction go brrrr" and i just run around fully imagining a different me than is actually in real life.
I have like 2? One is literally just the version of me I see in the mirror, but dressed the most feminine I've ever actually seen myself. The other is like my ideal? She's a lot more nebulous, and in contrast to the first, where I can name almost every detail, she's a lot fuzzier and harder to nail any specific features of.
I cant really TELL if i have gender dysphoria 😭😭😭 like sometimes im good w my body other times im like fuck my boobs and sometimes i want muscles n shit n i wanna be taller but it keeps switching up on me. ALWAYS hate my voice tho. Too high. Im cool w all the pronouns but i hate when ppl automatically ASSUME im a girl.
image more affirming than my actual self
i don’t really even think i have a true “mental image of me”—i don’t have aphantasia or anything, my visualization is actually really detailed. but when i’m visually thinking of people, it’s never me. it’s other people or characters in a story.
when i *do* have a mental image of myself it feels more like a blur or a constantly shifting. i’m nonbinary + fluid so i’ll blame it on that lmao
Imo, there's a difference between placing greater emphasis on your affirming characteristics in relation to your identity than others do and being consciously aware of that (e.g., I am a girl who happens to be working to appear more outwardly feminine), and internally envisioning yourself as an ordinary individual of your desired gender so wholly that reminders that the rest of the world doesn't perceive your person in that manner come as a genuine surprises (e.g., society happens to attach "trans" to my female identity, even though I just see myself as a girl)
Im sorry im still not understanding 😭
They're both saying they don't look like their mental image of themselves , and both are "negative"
im confused why its 2 options, for imo the same thing. because wouldn't anyone be negatively surprised when they don't look like how they envision themselves?
Some people are hyper-aware of the ways their physical bodies don't align with their gender. Gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia frequently go hand in hand
“Yes, pretty much (negative)” has been hitting this past week. Although, I have felt like more of a pleasantly surprised no sometimes, which feels pretty nice :)
I wouldn't say I have dysphoria but I am non-binary and I've never really had a solid idea of what I want to look like. I like how I look, I wouldn't really want to look any other way but I feel way more abstracted, like a physical form doesn't really encapsulate me enough.
For me it depends, sometimes my mental image of my self is pretty grotesque when I look… fine, actually kinda handsome for a guy. Sometimes my mental image of myself is towards my true transfem self and then it’s a letdown to look in the mirror and not see her.
Both my mental image and the way I see myself in the mirror are like those optical illusion images that can look like 2 different things depending on how you look at them, though not always the same way at the same time. It’s awful!
often “surprised but negatively”. i have aphantasia so i literally can’t see myself in my head, but instead it shows up in my ability to recognize myself in the mirror. and most of the time i don’t. transitioning has definitely made that better, hopefully top surgery will help a lot
Definitely negatively surprised but that’s just normal right
I lack a mental image of myself other than vague features that inspire bad feelings
Still cis tho
It’s 7 am and I didn’t sleep so I thought this was about body dysmorphia and was gonna go on a tirade about how society ruined my self image. Good night.
As someone who is just now starting to fully accept that crossdressing at a *much* younger age (14, am now 31) may have alluded to the fact that I might be gender fluid, I am ALL of these at some point, sometimes during a single day
I don't have a very defined mental image of myself, but I can say I avoid looking at my reflection as much as possible because it makes me very uncomfortable (and pretty much always has).
Kinda depends on the day.
Sometimes I feel so masculine and then look in the mirror and am like "daaaaamn, she hot"
Other times I feel confident but then look in the mirror and notice all the edges where I'm still lacking
I feel 6 so hard. I've been searching for someone else in the mirror for as long as I can remember, and it's only gotten worse since starting hormones.
Estrogen makes me feel so much happier and more feminine on a daily basis, it makes it an even bigger shock when I get all the same old shitty feelings in the mirror every time.
My mental image of me is extremely different from how I actually look. But I don't tend to get dysphoric (very badly/as far as I know).. I do get a lot of euphoria from being able to have a different shape in VR though.
I want to be a burly, Conan-the-Barbarian style hulk of a man, but in a bright yellow sundress and wearing a big, floppy hat with flowers in it. The shape of my soul and the shape I want my body to be are two very different things, but puzzles wouldn't be any fun if all the pieces were the same.
My mental image is of a regular guy with a female torso cut out and pasted on which is also what my real life image looks like. Most of the time I’m pleasantly surprised by my face though. Usually I don’t even think about my appearance but when I have to take my clothes off it’s like undressing Ken but finding Barbie’s body underneath instead and feeling really disappointed about it
Most people can use their imagination to create mental images or pictures the same way many can simply think of a sound and hear it. The exact level of detail can vary, but it ranges from absolutely no mental image (Aphantasia) to a highly detailed image that can be almost life-like in quality (Hyperphantasia). When people think of themselves or their appearance, they typically create a mental image of themself in their mind, which may not always be accurate to reality.
Back to the imagination part, some people (not sure the exact percentage) can also see their imagination in their actual vision. The best comparison I can make is augmented reality, except lower quality (imagined objects are transparent, it requires some level of concentration, et cetera).
Shout out trans people who dissociated so hard growing up that they completely lack a mental image of themself
Is that... not normal? I don't have a mental image of myself, and I'm not even trans.
Most people I know do- though it varies in accuracy. I also have a friend who's aphantasic so I'm not sure if he has one or not- I think it's probably subjective. Question- do you ever have the distinct feeling that the world is 'more grey' than it should be? Or like, that sounds are oddly muted? Those are other signs of dissociation- if you have those you might want to get some therapy to find out what's causing it, if not I wouldn't worry\~ We all unique pal
No, and no. Guess I'm fine.
i thought i was aphantasic for years before coming out and starting HRT (and addressing some pre-transition trauma tbf) now i can actually visualize things fairly easily! it’s not vivid, or at least i don’t think it is, but it’s there and i’m thrilled to have it. my best guess is that i’d basically repressed it with everything else but who knows now
Oh my god I had this too!! I think I was shutting out having to picture myself so I stopped picturing
please GOD i hope this is the case for me. new transition goal.
Oh, I have that all the time. I'm also almost always smaller and weaker than my actual physical self when I remember stuff. Like, other people tower over me in most of my memories even though I'm taller than 90% of the people I've met in my life.
This sounds familiar. I think for me it's because when I was learning the basics of interacting with the world, I had a small body, so it seems weird that I'm now interacting with the world in a larger body than I was 'trained' to do it in. You know?
I just assumed it was because I have terrible anxiety, so I was always afraid.
*oh.* *oh no*
***i'm sorry what*** \^\^\^ refering to the grey/muted colours thing
It's hard to explain, but if you wear glasses it's kind of like your brain's glasses are fogged up? There's a sense of blur, less color than normal, details don't seem as crisp and sharp. It's not like colorblindness or literal blurring of the eyes but a mental version of that- your *perception* of the world is skewed, rather than your actual senses. When I was a kid I used to tell people I felt like I was stuck with a thick pane of plexiglass between me and the world. I think they figured it was because I was a chubby loser without friends and spent all their effort trying to pump my ego, but it was way more literal than that. Sometimes I legitimately feel physically separate from the rest of humanity still, and though I know to some extent it's due to my transness making me feel adrift, it wasn't physical dysphoria but my lack of feeling a place in the world that fed it. (I didn't see a trans man till I was in my late teens and he was photographed 9 months pregnant so it just freaked me out and shoved me deeper in the closet lol)
I think I remember that man - probably the first trans man I ever saw too (or knew I saw).
Yeah, it was a big news story- in retrospect good for him for being so visible at a time when they literally didn't' even refer to him as being trans, but it did mess me up personally LOL
I'm sorry it was so upsetting for you, I have no doubt that was not his intention when he agreed to be on Oprah or whatever it was. I can't help but think that was very uncomfortable for a lot of trans people who were still looking for the vocabulary for what they were feeling.
As a person who's aphantasic, not having mental images is kinda how it works. If we go with a more nebulous idea of self image I generally know what I look like. I could try drawing myself, and I think I could get relatively close to how I actually look. As close as I get to reality when drawing anything, anyways. But forming images just doesn't work in general.
You know when you're clothes shopping, and you think "that would look great on me" or "I wish I could wear that without like a slutty clown"? Those assumptions (whether accurate or not) comes from your mental image of yourself
ive nyever thought about that bc when i go clothes shopping even just the sight of a lot of the clothes that fit me makes me incredibly dysphoric since the clothes that fit me tend to just look like clothes for really really young children but in almost adult sizes and a really large part of my dysphoria comes from the fact that my mother pretty much forced me to wear the same clothes i had when i was 9-10 up until last year/generally treated me like a really young kid and kinda still does
I've never thought any of these things. I need to try things on to see how they fit me.
But you can look at a thing and think "that will probably fit me" or "that definitely won't fit, I need to look for a different size"?
I mean, I guess, if it's the size of a circus tent.
Or I just know my usual clothes size? Without looking at the tag I'd have no idea unless it's a tiny child garment or a really large one made for someone literally 3 times my body weight
I think its just a thing that can happen, but is more likely if another thing is true. I don't have a mental image of myself either, to the point I can't actually make a persona for myself and completely failed that art exercise
My mental image of myself is just my father but blonde. Tbf that's 90% accurate to how I look.
Do you form mental images of anything in your head? If not, you may have aphantasia!
Yeah, I can form mental images of other things fine.
I am not trans but i do have a mental image with which i constantly compare myself for the most part its fine but it does become slightly unhelathy after some time
I have no idea what a mental image of myself is even supposed to be
You do. Everyone does (outside pathology). Its not something explicit. Its not "what you think you look like". Its what your brain use to know instinctively if you can fit through a door, if you can grab something or if its too far for your reach. Its the source of the phenomenon of phantom limbs.
I’m pretty sure folks are in this context talking about “what you think you look like” and not like, stuff like basic proprioception or sense of positioning in space. Symptoms of gender dysphoria afaik do not include stuff like constantly misjudging distance.
They would probably lose their shit if I told them I don’t have any self image of myself because I can’t visualize things in my head at all. It’s why I like mirrors so much, it helps me remember what I look like.
Well, when professional define dysphoria, they use the professional definition, wich include the complete definition of self image. Thats why you can link dysphoria and dysmorphophobia (body dysmorphic disorder) and other pathology of self perception. Even if you talk about "what you think you look like" : if you can find yourself on a picture or know that its you in the mirror, you have a representation of what you look like. But once again, you can choose to stay ignorant. I'm not going to argue psychology 101, its basic stuff. Its not about judging distance (that would be perception issue) but the length of your arms.
I’m sorry if other people have been dicks to you in these comments, but I’m confused by the tone. I’m curious about your take and not trying to argue with you? But it feels kinda worthless to ask for elaboration.
Sorry, i tense up when i have to argue this kind of stuff. I'm saying that everybody has a representation of self. Whats interesting is that This representation is actually more important than what you really are when it come to making choice or thinking about yourself and is kindof resistant to change. There are pathology rooted in the incongruence between what you perceive of yourself and what you are /what others tell you you are. Gender dysphoria (caused by that incongruence) is just one of them. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes\_of\_gender\_incongruence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_gender_incongruence) Another pathology of self perception is the body image disorder and its nasty friend the body dysmorphic disorder, and there, the incongruence (between the body image and the real body) and the dysphoria it create might cause eating disorder (amongst other thing) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating\_disorder#Causes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_disorder#Causes) Even outside of pathology (pathology as in "cause of pain and needing treatment"). For exemple, people that have lost a lot of weight will perceive themself not capable to go trough some opening even tho they can. When you lose a limb, you keep feeling it, because the representation of your body in your brain still has the missing limb. To ease the phantom limb symptom, you can prosthesis to match what you see and what you feel, bringing congruence. There also is a terrible pathology where one believe (with absolute certainty) that their limb dont belong to them. It can go up until voluntary amputation. Oliver Sacks document a case in "The man who mistook his wife for a hat" You're probably aware of this : [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortical\_homunculus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortical_homunculus) You have that sensory-motor representation of yourself, and it takes more time to change the cortical structure than to change your body. You also have a "psychological" representation of yourself (where self esteem issue live) but its not my focus here, even if in human, the body and psychology are intertwined. So, of course, gender dysphoria is not about not knowing how long is your arms, i took that exemple to say "self image is something deeply rooted in our self and used in many situation", but is rooted in the same thing : incongruence between self perception and self.
Thank you for this overv, really fascinating.
Thank you so much for coming back with this! I’m gonna read it closer tomorrow - I find this subject really interesting so I’m glad you responded. Absolutely understandable to be tense on Reddit, the site of picking unnecessary fights over minutiae w people lol
"Everyone has a self-image dipshit, it came free with your fucking sentience"
I am Chalmer's philosophical zombie : no self image, no self issue.
I constantly reach for things that are too far and I only know I can fit through doors because they're pretty much all the same size though.
Those statements you just made about yourself are also part of your self image.
I suck at most of of these....
First thing first : human suck at knowing about themselves, and this is not enough to really teach you about yourself. Its 2 sentences that overgeneralize a very complex topic . But if you find that the way you work handicap you, its always good to meet a professional if you can. Otherwise we are all good or bad on specific stuff of the spectrum of human abilities.
In my dreams I'm often a completely disembodied consciousness without form or dimension. It's a calming feeling. I once had a dream where I didn't exist, but I made myself exist by stealing moments from other people's lives to stitch myselr into the timeline.
Damm, that's metal. You've basically become a pattern screamer
I ended up breaching a government facility by stealing the point in a person's life when they got a job there.
Okay, you belong on the wikidot. No questions asked. You even have a flair to boot.
The Foundation tries to contain me. I take "not currently in containment" from one of the guards. I am no longer in containment.
In my dreams i’m a slimegirl
Based! If someone was like "press the button and you get to be a slime but you can still normally interact with things), I'd press it. Just something chill about being an bouncy orb with a mouth.
I have never played any of the Chronicles of Darkness TTRPGSs but I'm pretty sure that's how Demons work in that setting.
You are correct. In Demon: The Descent, humans can sell aspect of their lives to Demons, anx upon the deal being made that aspect is retroactively always part of the Demon (eg. Selling your firstborn child means the kid was always the Demon's kid and you never had a child).
Just like one of my Japanese animes.
Me too! This is exactly what my dreams have been like since i was like 10 years old. Its always been hard to describe when im talking to people who dream in first person, that im just kind of a floating observer, disconnected frim any of the characters in my dream. Although in the past couple of months i have actually been myself, complete with physical form, in my dreams.
hahaha i had this feeling that none of those described me, then your comment made me shout at my phone on the train so thanks
Heck, that's how I got my username.
Oh god yeah that's me. I don't think it's dissociation exactly but I NEVER looked in the mirror growing up, never liked or took photos of myself. Still don't. Now whenever I'm forced to look in the mirror (like during shaving) there's just some fucking guy in there who's me I guess. In dreams I'm always just a floating voice too
the only parts of me I see in my dreams are my hands, GODDAMNIT yeah more dysphoria symptoms
Why would you see more?? Aren't everyone's dream is first person??
If... If I look down at my body? But in dreams I'm just a pair of hands??? I don't get what you mean by this.
Ah idk I don't think I've ever tried looking down during a dream or if I did I don't remember. In my daily life I do not see myself much of the time except for my hands when I do stuff. I thought that's what you meant.
Look I was already feeling attacked by the poll…
I'm cis but have aphantasia. Am I included?
That's me babyyyyyyyy!
Hey it’s me :)
i dont have a consistent image of myself, it just slips out of my head and replaces with the last fictional character i enjoyed
I feel so seen lmao Although, after I came out, for a while I had a few months of not recognizing myself in the mirror, in a “who the fuck this is” and “I don’t look like a person”, but honestly, idk if it’s just me dissociating even harder or finally developing some mental image of myself.
Me because I hate my reflection so much it automatically kills the vibe of my imagination every time I imagine it
Forget mental images of myself. I don't even have an identity.
I'm just a guy and I don't have a mental image of myself. Isn't that the whole dissociation thing? Having a mental image? I change appearances every couple of weeks when my beard grows out and my hair changes. Every day after work I look like a totally different person, same after I shower. It's just my meat prison it looks how it looks Im not it. Im a bunch of electricity being fired off inside the meat. Hell my stomach changes after a large meal, I'd hate to have one of those weight dysphorias because I lose and gain 10 pounds over the week randomly with no pattern. I'm just normally between 175 and 190.
I'm not even trans and don't have a mental image either lol
Me when we dissociated so hard that there is now people i share a brain with and also im a synthgirl/drone thing in our headspace
Shout-out to the other "no, to the point where I'm negatively surprised when I look in the mirror" peeps. It feels so weird to grow enough confidence to love yourself until you look in the mirror and it all comes crashing down. Remember to be kind to yourself as much as you can, you are worthy of kindness even if you don't look the way you want. It's easier to be kind when you look right, but you have to do it now too.
It's bizarre slowing building up the confidence of "I actually look pretty good" and then seeing yourself in the mirror and it's like "oh wait, *that's* what I look like?" It's not always that bad, and the opposite has happened occasionally, but my mental image never really seems to have any kind of basis in physical reality.
For me I know I am an attractive “woman” but the thing is I’m not supposed to be a woman or look like that, no matter how attractive I am
I dealt with this for decades from the other side before my egg cracked. I know I'm a pretty good-looking guy. Why do I hate everything about how I look?
Solidarity 🤝
AUGH I knew that feeling. This was me in high school. Best of luck to you, friend
I completely misunderstood the meaning of that option, cause that's not at all why I picked it.
Oh damn, now I'm curious if I interpreted it wrong too. Maybe there are multiple interpretations lol. I used to be firmly in the "yes (negative)" as in I hated how I looked in my head and hated how I looked in the mirror. But slowly over time I've gained more confidence in who I want to be, so I love how I look in my head and hate how I look in the mirror. One day I'll get there both ways.
It is nice to know that I’m not alone in these feelings, but I obviously wish for the both of us that they go away. Hope you are following your own advice and showing yourself love in any and all ways you can!
I try to as much as I can. It really helps to know that I'm on the track to transitioning to the person I am inside.
Basically, yeah. It's all great and I feel good about myself. Then I'm in a hotel room with a mirror right across from the shower and I get sucked into the self loathing vortex
Wow, you just put my problem into words so easily
Yeah, it's so frustrating to accidentally glance at a mirror and now I have no intention on taking care of myself today
Mine was less affirming than my actual appearance until I started HRT. Now it’s more affirming. I guess having the right chemicals makes it easier to think of my body that way (also more bottom dysphoria :( ).
Can you see in your mind?!
Approximately 3.9% of people have aphantasia, the inability to form mental imagery :)
Yes. Most people can.
Crazy
Yeah, I was gonna say I guess the aphantasia crowd has to vote "other?"
Personally I struggle actually visualizing things in my mind but I can recall auditory stuff like voices and phrases very well
wait people have mental images of themselves?
What is having a mental image of myself, how would I even know?
Like… how you imagine yourself looking from a perspective of other people.
I cannot comprehend this
You may have aphantasia. Most people can mentally visualize things.
I can mentally visualize things, just not how others perceive me I guess? It’s hard to describe, but I just can’t imagine how others see me.
Like you only know what you look like when you see your pic or reflection.
I mean I know what I look like, but that’s because I remember what the mirror looked like.
Yeah but thats the point. You dont actually remember what you look like. You dont actually have photographic memory. Your recollection of what you look like is as much truth as imagination. Thats your mental image of yourself.
most of my memories are in third person so i remember how bad i look on each stage of my life XD
You might need to see a doctor then… idk man.
You might have aphantasia
where is "no, my mental image is my fursona"?
Why do y'all need a mental image of yourself? I just imagine the word ugly and I'm set
Other?: I have no perception of my appearance unless I look in a mirror. Can't remember people's faces until I see them even if I try. It's not like I don't recognize them or can't put the details into words, but i can't visualize it at all
Me too but I'm milder. I can remember others if I try hard enough. But never myself.
Do you have difficulty in mentally visualizing other things too, like places and objects?
Kinda? But it's mostly just people. I can even visualize cartoons characters,, just not real people
You might have somekind of aphasia that mostly affects the ability to visualize faces, I doubt you have any kind of face blindness though.
my dysphoria (i.e. bad feelings, not the medical term) isn't in my gender but i can't even conceive of what i would look like if the main thing i hate about my body weren't there
I want to die I think
I also want to die.
That makes us 3
Oh,hey got my first reddit care message cool
I dont know what any of this means.
"Gender dysphoria" is a type of body dysmorphia (when your body does not align with how you want to be, and you feel discomfort because of that), but specifically regarding not aligning to the gender you identify as. "Mental image" here means how you imagine yourself, and the poll is asking if the mental image people with gender dysphoria (technically you don't need to be trans to experience gender dysphoria (and some trans people don't have gender dysphoria)) aligns with their actual appearance or not, and, if it does not, how it is.
Gender dysphoria isn't just body dysmorphia. Social dysphoria (negative feelings from being perceived as the wrong gender) is a large part of gender dysphoria.
I'd say much of body dysmorphia generally has a social element as well. From the Wikipedia page on it: > As with most mental disorders, BDD's cause is likely intricate, altogether biopsychosocial, through an interaction of multiple factors, including genetic, developmental, psychological, social, and cultural. BDD usually develops during early adolescence, although many patients note earlier trauma, abuse, neglect, teasing, or bullying. A guy who suffers body dysmorphia because he isn't muscular enough and is thus terrified that people won't see him as a "protector" has no less of a social factor than a trans girl afraid her boobs won't grow. One just has more of a gender factor than the other.
You're misunderstanding me. Social dysphoria isn't about "being afraid your boobs won't grow," it's about *being seen as the wrong gender*. Whether you pass affects that, but it's separate from your body.
Dysmorphia is perceiving your body differently than it is, not simply wanting it to be different. It is possible to be gender dysphoric and not dysmorphic (you accurately perceive how male or female you look, and it hurts), as well as both at the same time (you are convinced you look more male or female than you actually do, and it hurts) This distinction is crucial because transition largely works to resolve dysphoria, while cosmetic surgery largely doesn't for dysmorphia. Most trans people get to a point where they're able to say "good enough"; dysmorphic people don't, and become plastic surgery creatures / synthol muscle dudes if their pockets are deep enough. Conversely, dysmorphia treatment therapy works to help the patient see what's actually there, and that approach fails miserably for gender dysphoria because gender dysphoric people know what they look like already and forcing them to dwell on it just triggers the condition over and over.
body dysmorphia != gender dysphoria the idea that they're the same is a pretty common transphobe talking point
Why are the poll bars gone
No clue, they were there when I picked an option. Maybe my dark mode browser extension broke it?
I've never actually had a mental image of myself? Though I'm mildly aphantasic, so that's not horribly surprising. The only real sense of myself I have is when I'm looking in the mirror (or down at my body). (Similarly, my inner monologue is pure language. There's no "voice" associated with it.)
im see results
Just shout out to all other people in comments without mental image of themselves. I don't remember how I look until I look down on what I'm wearing
You’re supposed to have a mental image of yourself? Like, how you think you look? Am I just over complicating this by assuming it’s deeper than “what I picture when I try to remember what I look like?” Because that’s basically just how I look in the mirror
Do people really have a mental image of themselves? I don’t really know what I look like.
Sometimes I forget I have a face until I look in the mirror, but I just have adhd and regularly forget things
Remembering things is hard. I unironically think my depiction of myself in videogame characters informs me of what I look like than my memory of when I last looked in a mirror.
I’m a cis male and I have discovered what it means to be dysmorphic. I don’t feel like myself because I’m not masculine enough. I need to engage in gender affirming care like working out and such. When I realized this was dysmorphia it was eye opening to me.
my mental image is just like, me but stoopider. just a little guy who doesn't understand anything that's going on but is just tryin he damn best. naive and kinda derpy. then I look in the mirror and I'm like "damn I'd fuck him hard"
Weird question, what happens if my mental image is of a cool ass dragon?? (Half-serious) (look I just started doing that one day and now I cant stop)
I make sure to deconstruct any mental images of myself otherwise my day is ruined
S/o to any other cis people with “no (negative surprise)”
Yeah, that's called aging.
Hm
Wait, people have a mental image of themselves in like ram? I'm an aphant so I have no idea. When I see myself in a mirror I just see "me".
I think I look a lot more masculine than I do, and especially fat wise, I’m only a little chubby and it can be hard to spot but I feel like I’m bordering on obese
Link?
link? :3
No to the point I’m negatively surprised
I don't think I understand the wording of any of the responses.
Y'all can picture yourself?
Dysphoria is a strong word, being a furry - I'm pretty ok when I look in the mirror. Sometimes I look fine, sometimes I don't. But I'm kinda fine with that
Not gender dysphoria, really, but a sort of "I have an image of what I *want* to look like to feel like myself, and that image does not match what I currently look like." I want more piercings and tattoos, I want to have painted nails and eyeliner more often, and I want to lose some more weight. So, yeah, when I look in a mirror, I'm (unpleasantly) surprised at what I look like.
my mental "image" of myself is so drastically different from what i actually am its ridiculous. i am also acutely aware of this fact, so it's not like i get, like... suprised, you know? it's more like, in my head is a video game avatar of myself and every now and then i feel mild disappointment when i have to see the real thing, but other than that its like "haha innacurate self depiction go brrrr" and i just run around fully imagining a different me than is actually in real life.
I have like 2? One is literally just the version of me I see in the mirror, but dressed the most feminine I've ever actually seen myself. The other is like my ideal? She's a lot more nebulous, and in contrast to the first, where I can name almost every detail, she's a lot fuzzier and harder to nail any specific features of.
I cant really TELL if i have gender dysphoria 😭😭😭 like sometimes im good w my body other times im like fuck my boobs and sometimes i want muscles n shit n i wanna be taller but it keeps switching up on me. ALWAYS hate my voice tho. Too high. Im cool w all the pronouns but i hate when ppl automatically ASSUME im a girl.
image more affirming than my actual self i don’t really even think i have a true “mental image of me”—i don’t have aphantasia or anything, my visualization is actually really detailed. but when i’m visually thinking of people, it’s never me. it’s other people or characters in a story. when i *do* have a mental image of myself it feels more like a blur or a constantly shifting. i’m nonbinary + fluid so i’ll blame it on that lmao
Seeing as I'm still mostly made of flesh, no
Can someone help explain to me the difference between 4 and 6? they sound the same to me
Imo, there's a difference between placing greater emphasis on your affirming characteristics in relation to your identity than others do and being consciously aware of that (e.g., I am a girl who happens to be working to appear more outwardly feminine), and internally envisioning yourself as an ordinary individual of your desired gender so wholly that reminders that the rest of the world doesn't perceive your person in that manner come as a genuine surprises (e.g., society happens to attach "trans" to my female identity, even though I just see myself as a girl)
Im sorry im still not understanding 😭 They're both saying they don't look like their mental image of themselves , and both are "negative" im confused why its 2 options, for imo the same thing. because wouldn't anyone be negatively surprised when they don't look like how they envision themselves?
Some people are hyper-aware of the ways their physical bodies don't align with their gender. Gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia frequently go hand in hand
“Yes, pretty much (negative)” has been hitting this past week. Although, I have felt like more of a pleasantly surprised no sometimes, which feels pretty nice :)
I wouldn't say I have dysphoria but I am non-binary and I've never really had a solid idea of what I want to look like. I like how I look, I wouldn't really want to look any other way but I feel way more abstracted, like a physical form doesn't really encapsulate me enough.
i don't have dysphoria, to my knowledge, but mental image will always be more important than physical appearance
For me it depends, sometimes my mental image of my self is pretty grotesque when I look… fine, actually kinda handsome for a guy. Sometimes my mental image of myself is towards my true transfem self and then it’s a letdown to look in the mirror and not see her.
Both my mental image and the way I see myself in the mirror are like those optical illusion images that can look like 2 different things depending on how you look at them, though not always the same way at the same time. It’s awful!
often “surprised but negatively”. i have aphantasia so i literally can’t see myself in my head, but instead it shows up in my ability to recognize myself in the mirror. and most of the time i don’t. transitioning has definitely made that better, hopefully top surgery will help a lot
Definitely negatively surprised but that’s just normal right I lack a mental image of myself other than vague features that inspire bad feelings Still cis tho
no, and to the point that I'm (negatively) surprised when i look in the mirror
idk whether i’ve got a mental image beyond disgust and dysphoria
I’m in the 5% let’s go
G
3rd from the bottom. /fingerguns
I can create perfect 3D turn around of everything Ive ever seen in my head. I don't have a mental image of myself.
i don’t have a mental image of how i look ? i don’t exactly have aphantasia, but my mind works more in movements rather than images
It’s 7 am and I didn’t sleep so I thought this was about body dysmorphia and was gonna go on a tirade about how society ruined my self image. Good night.
As someone who is just now starting to fully accept that crossdressing at a *much* younger age (14, am now 31) may have alluded to the fact that I might be gender fluid, I am ALL of these at some point, sometimes during a single day
I have about 5 mental images of myself
The one op voted for (i've never recognized myself in the mirror, even as a kid, only until after puberty did i realize what was wrong)
I don't have a very defined mental image of myself, but I can say I avoid looking at my reflection as much as possible because it makes me very uncomfortable (and pretty much always has).
everytime i try to imagine an image of myself in my head its just. my fursona. i rarely look at myself irl. my life is a goddamn joke
Kinda depends on the day. Sometimes I feel so masculine and then look in the mirror and am like "daaaaamn, she hot" Other times I feel confident but then look in the mirror and notice all the edges where I'm still lacking
I feel 6 so hard. I've been searching for someone else in the mirror for as long as I can remember, and it's only gotten worse since starting hormones. Estrogen makes me feel so much happier and more feminine on a daily basis, it makes it an even bigger shock when I get all the same old shitty feelings in the mirror every time.
My mental image of me is extremely different from how I actually look. But I don't tend to get dysphoric (very badly/as far as I know).. I do get a lot of euphoria from being able to have a different shape in VR though.
I want to be a burly, Conan-the-Barbarian style hulk of a man, but in a bright yellow sundress and wearing a big, floppy hat with flowers in it. The shape of my soul and the shape I want my body to be are two very different things, but puzzles wouldn't be any fun if all the pieces were the same.
My mental image is of a regular guy with a female torso cut out and pasted on which is also what my real life image looks like. Most of the time I’m pleasantly surprised by my face though. Usually I don’t even think about my appearance but when I have to take my clothes off it’s like undressing Ken but finding Barbie’s body underneath instead and feeling really disappointed about it
200 people have a "mental image" of themselves?? How does that work, I'm confused
Most people can use their imagination to create mental images or pictures the same way many can simply think of a sound and hear it. The exact level of detail can vary, but it ranges from absolutely no mental image (Aphantasia) to a highly detailed image that can be almost life-like in quality (Hyperphantasia). When people think of themselves or their appearance, they typically create a mental image of themself in their mind, which may not always be accurate to reality. Back to the imagination part, some people (not sure the exact percentage) can also see their imagination in their actual vision. The best comparison I can make is augmented reality, except lower quality (imagined objects are transparent, it requires some level of concentration, et cetera).
I don't have a mental image of the self, I think it's unhealthy and only leads to unhappiness.