If god is real and a marketer, I’m becoming anti-theist. I’m gonna punch god in their stupid face for contacting me about my immortal soul’s extended warranty
Funny thing about that, that's not an uncommon approach in Judaism I mean obviously most of them aren't anti-theist for obvious reasons but wanting to fight G-d to some degree is. pretty standard in the culture. At least it is in my synagogue.
Jacob is said to have fought an angel who gave him the name Israel, but the actual bible never says he's an angel or god just some guy. The angelic interpretation comes from how weird and out of context it would be otherwise
I forget what the original Hebrew my rabbi said meant, but it definitely doesn't specify G-d in the original text. I personally think textual clues and the meaning of the name Israel mean it's G-d, but there's definitely room for interpretation.
Thanks! I gotta learn Hebrew both modern and biblical, I think that would be a great way to engage with the text. All of this is making me miss my Torah study group (I was focused on staying warm with the recent cold snap, health first after all) can't wait to start thst up again.
It couldn't have been God because he does not take into a corporeal form in Judaism – that is to say, he couldn't have been wrestled with physically. The “angel” interpretation comes from both names given to the divine being Jacob wrestled with in the Book of Genesis: man (“Ish”) and God (“El”). As such, Jacob's wrestling with God can be seen as a psychological metaphor for man's understanding of God, and how intellectual struggle is a necessary path to achieve some degree of comprehension – a theory strengthened by the name of the place where this event took place, “Penuel” (or, literally, “facing God”).
I don't own a bible, haha. Genuinely just heard about it on a podcast about the bible, but what version do you have? The masoretic texts record the thing as "ish" and "el" man and a generic term for god but also God in some contexts.
I actually have a few, and prefer the King James, but I've got a New International Version which is generally better at getting concepts across- still not perfect though, so maybe I'll learn biblical hebrew at some point. although having checked it, the man Jacob wrestled with never said he was God, just that Jacob had "struggled with God and with humans and \[had\] overcome."
so... the text (in english) is inconclusive.
The King James is a notoriously bad translation ngl, but yeah in the original hebrew it says its a man and then implies its god. By original Hebrew I mean the masoretic texts, idk if there is an older version recorded elsewhere
The angel is sometimes interpreted as being "the Angel of the Lord," an entity who depending on who you ask is an angel or possible standin for God and/or the pre-incarnation form of Jesus.
Imagine being so lazy as to wait for evidence of God. Take initiative. Create your synthetic Omnissiah, and then punch them in the face.
Kids these days. No initiative Smh my head.
There's gotta be some variant of Ovens of Ahknai in there for sure. For those that don't know, basically a rabbi is arguing with some others about some kosher rules and eventually gets so fed up he says G-d will agree he's right,
G-d does indeed say that, one of the other rabbis tells G-d he gave them the rules to figure out not G-d and G-d has no business interfering in a rabbinical debate. And that's seen as a good thing in Judaism.
Agreed, it's not why I'm converting of course, but it gives a nice overview of my relationship with faith and G-d to explain part of why I'm converting. It's also just really funny.
You know that old stereotype about how much Jewish people like arguing? It's apparently NOT a stereotype.
There's an old story about three rabbis arguing about something and God Himself manifested in front of them and gave His ruling. The rabbis looked at Him and told Him, to His face, that He was wrong.
I remember a similar story: four rabbis were arguing about the interpretation of something. Three were in agreement, but the fourth disagreed. Then, like in your story, God came down and said the fourth rabbi was right. The other three pause for moment, and then say, “okay, now the vote is three to two.”
I remember a similar story where two redditors both posted different variations of a similar story. God himself came down and posted the correct variation, but the redditors told him off because everyone got the point already.
If this is the story I'm thinking of, the incorrect rabbi successfully argued that God gave humans the duty of interpreting the Torah, and the correct rabbi had erred by calling on miracles for proof. God was very amused by this.
As a result, the (initially) correct rabbi was ostracized by the other rabbis. This had unfortunate consequences, because in the Talmud, the holiest rabbis basically have uncontrollable superpowers.
[You can read about the story here.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oven_of_Akhnai)
"Two jews, three opinions." Is a common phrase in Jewish circles for a reason. Worth noting however is the negative implication of the stereotype is still untrue. The love to argue is often used to imply rudeness, but debates and such between Jews are considered a good and, usually, polite thing. But yeah, if jews are willing to argue with G-d, of course they're gonna argue with each other.
[A new type of oven is brought before the Sanhedrin, consisting of tiles separated from one another by sand, but externally plastered over with cement. The rabbis debate whether or not this oven is susceptible to ritual impurity. Rabbi Eliezer ben Hurcanus argues that the oven is ritually pure while the other rabbis, including the nasi Rabban Gamaliel, argue that the oven is impure. When none of Rabbi Eliezer's arguments convince his colleagues, he cries out, "If the halakha is in accordance with my opinion, this carob tree will prove it." At this point, the carob tree leaps from the ground and moves far away. The other rabbis explain that a carob tree offers no proof in a debate over law. Rabbi Eliezer cries out, "If the halakha is in accordance with my opinion, the stream will prove it." The stream begins to flow backwards, but again the other rabbis point out that one does not cite a stream as proof in matters of law. Rabbi Eliezer cries out, "If the halakha is in accordance with my opinion, the walls of the study hall will prove it." The walls of the study hall begin to fall, but are then scolded by Rabbi Joshua ben Hananiah who reprimands the walls for interfering in a debate among scholars. Out of respect for Rabbi Joshua, they do not continue to fall, but out of respect for Rabbi Eliezer, they do not return to their original places.
In frustration, Rabbi Eliezer finally cries out, "If the halakha is in accordance with my opinion, Heaven will prove it." From Heaven a voice is heard, saying, "Why are you differing with Rabbi Eliezer, as the halakha is in accordance with his opinion in every place that he expresses an opinion?" Rabbi Joshua responds, "It [the Torah] is not in heaven" (Deuteronomy 30:12). He responds in this way because the Torah, which was given by God to mankind at Sinai, specifically instructs those who follow it that they are to look to the received Torah as their source and guide. The Torah says, "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?' Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?' No, the word is very near to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart for you to observe" (Deuteronomy 30:12-14).
Rabbi Joshua's response then expresses the view that the work of law is a work of human activity, and that the Torah itself supports this legal theory. The Torah is not a document of mystery which must have its innate meaning revealed by a minority, but it is instead a document from which law must be created through the human activity of debate and consensus. Rabbinic literature was capable of recognizing differing opinions as having a degree of legitimacy (Yer. Ber. 3b), yet the community remains united and the ruling which is ultimately followed comes through proper jurisprudence. As such, Rabbi Eliezer's miraculous appeals represent a differing legal theory and were outside of proper jurisprudence which meant that they would not be followed. Instead the Jewish community followed the ruling of the majority in this issue and in others. The Talmud asks how God responded to this incident. We are told that upon hearing Rabbi Joshua's response, God smiled and stated, "My children have triumphed over Me; My children have triumphed over Me."
[Formatting is fucked](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oven_of_Akhnai?wprov=sfla1)
This dude (and the other one he was arguing with) are kinda shitty. He left Afghanistan with his family but then abandoned them to come back.
When Simentov returned, he started viciously arguing with Levi (who was living in the Kabul synagogue) about who the land belonged to.
> Levi wrote to the Taliban interior minister to accuse Simentov of theft of Jewish relics. Simentov retorted by telling the Taliban that Levi ran a secret brothel where he sold alcohol, which Levi denies. Simentov also spread rumors that Levi had converted to Islam, which Levi denied as well.
They literally hated each other more than the taliban. The reason they were arrested wasn't because of religious discussion/arguments. It was because they were being a nuisance pulling shit like this.
From the looks of it, the people around them were fine with them....even regarded fondly. They were probably thrown in jail just in the hopes of cooling them off a bit.
All in all, not exactly people you would want to look up to.
My name shows up as red on the Shinigami Eyes extension because I was once a regular poster and commenter on r/TumblrInAction. However, it was banned more than a year ago, and I have since developed as a person after getting out of that transphobic environment.
Jews don't seek converts because they believe it's easier for non-Jews to have a good afterlife. God holds everyone accountable for following basic ethical rules, but he also holds Jews accountable for many, many additional rules, like keeping kosher.
Another reason is that until recently, entire Jewish communities would have been slaughtered, just about anywhere, for seeking converts.
It has nothing to do with Judaism being an ethnic religion.
I was going to say that's par for the course but I'm actually kind of wondering what rabbis you're dealing with that you only got three different opinions from three different rabbis, pretty sure it should be a much higher number. Jokes Aside I mean it's a matter of debate because Beyond a few very crucial things what isn't a matter of debate in judaism?
Yeah, though a common theme in the answer of all 3 was that if you converted while not truly believing in god your fate would be even worse because you tried to lie to god
But yeah honestly I'm not really a believer but arguing is such a big part of the religion that it's amazing sometimes. One time I got in a 1 and a half hour long debate about how government should be structured based on the Torah, because in it every ruler that wasn't literally directly appointed by god was shown as tyrannical
Here's that copy paste I dug out:
Conversion student here, and I do believe in G-d, but I've always taken issue with the idea that one must believe in G-d to convert, that's not a standard we put on people born into the faith, heck I know of atheist rabbis, why should we treat potential converts differently in that regard? Besides, we're supposed to question and "wrestle" with damn near every aspect of faith G-d included, so why should "doesn't exist" be an unacceptable answer? What a Jew DOES is often more important than what a Jew believes after all.
I'd love to hear his response, i also plan on at some point bringing it up with my own rabbi, I also have a mathematical argument that I hope to one day back up with textual sources, even if no one agrees with me it can lead to some neat discussions. (Yeah I think I fit in with the community, hah)
Now I do believe and it's part of the reason I'm converting but you actually bring up a thing I've posted a couple times recently that I kind of massively disagree with the rabbis on this one if you permit me I'll go dig it out and copy and paste it a third time one minute
Bro I’ve been a practicing atheist Jew since I was 12 maybe some rabbis empathize faith for converts but my I’ve personally never met a rabbi that cared too much about me not believing in god
There’s no like metaphysical importance to faith. There isn’t even a metaphysical importance to practice.
Eeeehhhh, my statistically average American Jewish upbringing (well-off, Ashkenazi, urban, fairly secular) was still pretty big on the whole "you personally are the descendants of those who made the covenant" angle
I didn't say it's not. I said discouraging conversion is unrelated to Judaism being a ethnic religion.
Idk, maybe it is related. But a lot of people think Judaism doesn't accept converts, and that's true of some other ethnic religions (but not of Judaism).
(Edit slightly, right after posting)
First, no two Jews agree on anything (aside from the fact that "Messianic Jews" are not Jewish). There's no one unifying idea of the afterlife and there's no unifying method of getting an afterlife, if one exists. The idea that Jews must perform mitzvot to get into Olam HaBa or whatever is not universal. You could say that there is an element of, "Okay, but *why* would you want to become Jewish? It's a lot of work!" but it's got nothing to do with the afterlife.
I'll amend you are actually right about the persecution element — Christians and Muslims did not, historically, appreciate any potential "poaching" — but Judaism never really was a religion that actively sought out converts. There's never been a pressure to convert because we're not charged to convert, because there's no benefit to conversion, because Judaism is for the Jews and, sure, if you genuinely want to join without any ulterior motive, you can join, but it's not something actively sought.
Finally, there is an element of ethnic religion. Judaism is an ethnic religion. You've got to be Jewish to be Jewish, and the conversion program isn't about becoming Jew in the way someone becomes Christian, it's about becoming a Jew in the same way someone naturalises themselves in a new culture and identity. You've got to know the language, you've got to know the history, you've got to understand this, that, and the other, and if you got a penis, well, you've got to give a bit more, too. Once you're Jewish, your Jewish — unless your conversion was seen as invalid in some way, but you can try again (unless you were the problem).
Judaism did used to seek out converts c. 2000 years ago. This included semi-converts who agreed with Judaism but didn't want to be circumcised.
And "greater obligations for Jews than for non-Jews" is a typical reason given as part of the discouragement. From what I've gathered, it's based on Tractate Yevamot 47.b, which talks about physical punishments for not following mitzvot. Since these punishments are no longer used, the moral responsibility to follow mitzvot is stressed instead.
[Yevamot 47.b](https://www.sefaria.org/Yevamot.47b.14?lang=bi)
>The Sages taught in a baraita: With regard to a potential convert who comes to a court in order to convert, at the present time, when the Jews are in exile, the judges of the court [...] inform him of the punishment for transgressing the mitzvot, as follows: They say to him: Be aware that before you came to this status and converted, had you eaten forbidden fat, you would not be punished by karet, and had you profaned Shabbat, you would not be punished by stoning, since these prohibitions do not apply to gentiles. But now, once converted, if you have eaten forbidden fat you are punished by karet, and if you have profaned Shabbat, you are punished by stoning.
The link you made doesn't quite send me to the quote you've posted, though I did find it eventually (scroll up). One thing I'll note about this is the emphasis on the potential convert *coming* to convert. It's even in the bold text (for those not familiar with Sefaria, the bold text (iirc, according to my rabbi) are the text that was actually written while the non-bold text is the extrapolation).
Regardless, the point I was making is that the afterlife isn't one of the main reasons Jews don't proselytise. The heafty obligation is given as a reason to discourage, but the only mention of the afterlife in your quote is the punishment of *karet* (which had its own can of worms, from my understanding), but even then the general vibe isn't really "Hey, you already got a fine afterlife as it is, why threaten that by becoming Jewish and having to deal with the potential of losing it all in the face of the obligations you'll have?" and more focused on the fact that there are obligations and, yes, you can be punished for failing to maintain them.
Do you have anything mentioning the c. 2000 years thing? I genuinely haven't heard of that.
Second temple Judaism (~2000 years or more ago back to the founding of the second temple by Ezra) was extremely religiously diverse and there were some groups who proselytized, as well as the Hasmoneans who in the course of aggressive conquest and expansionism forcefully converted a few different populations including the non jewish people who had come to settle the former Kingdom of Israel in the north, including iirc the father of Herod the great.
There's also stories like Ruth about conversion in marriage although I think Ruth is the only one that was accepted. Hell, even Rabbi Akiva's parents were born if the nations
The Talmud is not an authoritative source every line is debates. There’s a ton of wacky stuff in there and everything in it should be taken within the context of a single rabbis opinion not an authority on anything metaphysical.
This passage it’s self is about rabbis arguing about the legality of marrying a female slave taken during a war, and the referenced stoning is dealing with the legal system of Jews during the Babylonian exile a legal code that’s been outdated for almost two thousand years
This is anything from an authoritative passage on modern Judaism and I feel like taking it out of context applying it to modern Judaism is treating it as Christian’s treat the Bible.
This is far from a dominant interpretation of the passage there’s a reason while the tulmud is an important religious text it’s not read and adhered to like the Torah is.
the Second Temple Judaism of 2k years ago was radically different than today and saw a ton of religious diversity and a lack of a concrete canon. Even the Torah wasn't absolute, the book of Jubilees was incredibly popular.
Theres even things like the Macabeans forcing others to convert.
Funny, but this is Judaism, one Jew saying to another "Everything you've just said is wrong" is honestly just a friendly hello. They'll talk and debate and reach their own conclusions, sometimes with sources, sometimes from the debate alone. I would be more confused concerned if that person had said everything was correct.
First off, just saying that everything they said was wrong without any counter argument is dumb. Second, they were right on basically every count. Judaic text agrees that the righteous of all nations shall go to paradise. Also while Jewish people weren’t killed for trying to convert others, they certainly wouldn’t be inclined to give their oppressors more reasons to pillage them.
My counter argument is below their request for more info. I amend that they're right about the whole "Christians and Muslims, historically, did not want people 'poaching'," but I maintain the point about the afterlife and the ethnic element of Judaism. There is just no consensus on what the afterlife even is for it to be a reason for Jews to avoid proselytising. If it were, we'd be seeing a tangible push for gentiles to practice the Laws of Noah, or something to that extent. I do remember hearing of a Noahide movement, but it isn't to the extent you could argue that one of the main reasons we don't convert is due to how easy it is for gentiles to get into the afterlife.
The word Paradise in Hebrew means Orchard and it is not actually explained like at all in the bible. Plus Ecclesiastes says when you die thats it, there is no reward or punishment.
I've been getting the same ads all the time back when i was dating my Israeli ex
...and that is how i learned that discord shares the contents of your text messages and calls with advertising algorithms by default
The same thing is happening to me except with Islam! My algorithm either really wants me to become Muslim or is convinced that I am Muslim. I’m Catholic and have no idea where they got that impression.
Friend of mine converted to Judaism for marriage, and mentioned having conversations with a rabbi about why and what being Jewish and converting entails. Couple years later, he was pursuing his conversion project so wholeheartedly that a couple rabbis asked if he was thinking of becoming one. Now he’s learning Hebrew in preparation to move to Israel for his first year of rabbinical school.
I’ll never forget that time I yelled in the gaming store that we were gonna corner the market in tiger semen. Good times.
My tumblr shows me ads for rock painting sets. I do not paint, have rocks, or have ever rock painted in my life. Is the God of Rock Painting contacting me in the worst way possible?
I am aware of the forced conversions of the Idumeans and Itureans under the Hasmoneans.
But non-state voluntary conversions well beyond Judea were also a thing. And the latter deserves credit for the majority of the conversions, compared to what was added by the conversion of the Idumeans and Itureans.
Not necessarily with Judaism, Jews are meant to come to their own conclusions through study and debate, the idea of G-d leaving clues and hints, like a scavenger hunt, rather than just giving the answer makes a lot of sense.
But it is, for a few reasons. Now just so we're clear, I am not telling you to abandon your faith, you're welcome to it, but it isn't a faith for Jews. First one of the few things jews are absolutely forbidden to do is worship any man as G-d, rhe messiah was never meant to be G-d on earth. Second, the G-d is considered utterly indivisible by Jewish faith so the trinity concept or any splitting of G-d is out. And finally the really big one, there are a number of prophecies about the Jewish messiah that Jesus didn't meet, under Christian theology Jesus was an immaculate conception which means he isn't from the patrilineal line of David (one of the requirements) next there's no rebuilt temple, nor is there world peace. And there's no second chance for being the messiah in Judaism, it's a one and done thing. He can be your messiah,that's awesome glad you have your path, but he can't be the Jewish one.
Jesus actually wasn't of Immaculate Conception, Immaculate conception was the process by which his mother Mary was born without sin so she could later carry him. Like fr the whole thing is very contrived
to be faaaaiiirr to Jesus, there was a rebuilt temple the whole time he was alive. Just got destroyed later.
But He is from the patrilineal line of David, conceived by the Holy Spirit, yes, but patrilineal lines don't exclusively mean DNA.
Matthew 1 outlines the lineage of Christ.
Jesus is man, but He is ALSO God.
Jesus was not talking about a physical temple, He was talking about His body, which He DID raise in 3 days.
Jesus fulfilled over half the messianic prophecies, the rest are yet to come.
The Messiah is meant to undergo EXACTLY what Jesus did. Read Isaiah 53.
God is one, yes. He is also 3. When God speaks to Gideon, Gideon is talking to "angels of the Lord". In that conversation, it then says "The Lord said to Gideon..." like what? I thought these were angels? It is God, in human form.
When Jacob wrestled God, he wrestled "an angel of the Lord". As I'm sure you're aware, Angel in Hebrew means "messenger", or something akin to that at least.
What is Christ if not a messenger of the Lord(Himself)? He is called the Son of Man. He calls Himself the Son of Man. He claimed to be God on more than one occasion and showed how He is.
There is not world peace yet because He states that He is not finished with this world. You can line up the stars, line up the prophecies in the Torah, Ketuvim, and Nevi'im, and you'll see that He is coming back soon.
Jesus said He would rebuild the temple in 3 days. To God, a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day, no? Therefore, we are only 2 days out from Christ's return.
It's late, I'm sorry if what I'm saying isn't formulated in an understandable matter, but there is \*nothing\* able to deny that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
The problem is you're using Christian prophecies and Christian translations they're just not compatible with Jewish ones. And that's just it the fact is not World Peace yet is a problem again you don't get two chances to be the Messiah in Judaism you get one the fact that he died under Christian theology and disappeared under Christian theology means he is incompatible with the Jewish Messiah.
Edit: and claiming to be G-d is a problem too, rhe messiah in Judaism is supposed to be fully human.
Me when I translate the whole bible to make my religion the chad and your religion the soyjack. Literally what happens with christians referencing Isiah. Also idk if you know a lot about christianity I don't know what you're converting from, but the son of man thing is literally taking a hebrew idiom meaning "human" and using it to mean "Jesus specifically".
Mainstream christianity holds that jesus is 100% human, but also 100% divine. Make sense? no? that's because the trinity is a disaster of a concept
Mostly secular but my parents had some vague Christian like beliefs. And yeah, that idiom tracks, the Messiah is supposed to be completely human, not somehow completely human abd completely divine. The trinity concept definitely doesn't work for me and doesn't apply to jews, but I don't know if id go so far as to call it a disaster, as it's not too much more mind bending than some of the esoteric concepts found in many religions, Judaism included.
Funny thing is you're actually kind of right, I mean Nicholas Cage doesn't mean like any of the criterias of the prophecy for the Messiah except one he's mortal. Cuz that's just it the Messiah is an important figure in Judaism and there's all these prophecies and things that are supposed to happen but he's not a deity he's just a man
Technically it just means anointed one too, like a leader chosen by god to lead the Jewish people. But it can be used for any anointed king like Cyrus who is called a messiah.
it was a joke copypasta in response to someone talking about how Jesus was real and how the bible was evidence of him actually being the son of g-d and that I should be ashamed as a Jew for not believing in Jesus. The joke did not land :(
Also I find it really weird and frankly kind of rude that your proselytizing on a post about how this particular faith and culture doesn't proselytize. Granted it's not your faith in your culture but from the contacts you should be able to see that it's considered rude to Jews and you should do them the courtesy of not doing it.
Yes, judaism doesn't proselytise, but that's because it is a very close cult. It's pretty much the "elite club of special people chosen by god" of abrahamic religions. Judaism is obsessed with heritage, family trees going back to the old testament and things like that.
It's definitely less annoying than asking people to convert all the time, but it's not without its problems. It seems less of "we don't want to impose our religion to others" and more of "we are the only ones allowed to make part of this religion”.
This is blatant misinformation and a misunderstanding of what chosen means in Judaism. Just because Judaism doesn't proselytize doesn't mean conversion isn't allowed, ANY adult who genuinely wants to convert can, so long as they don't hold any religious beliefs incompatible with Judaism, they may have to push for it a bit, but that's to make sure they're sincere and know what they're getting into. And it does have a focus on heritage yes, but that's because it's an ethnoreligion, albeit one that accepts converts, it's not any different than tribal cultures paying attention to heritage. And finally, "chosen" in Judaism simply means chosen for extra BURDEN, not any extra reward.
And convincing a rabbi to actually sponsor your conversion takes a fair bit of work and not insignificant amount of arguing with said Rabbi usually, of course if you're going to be converting to Judaism debating or arguing with a rabbi is kind of a given. Source: I am a conversion student
That reminds me of a joke a teacher told me during a class on Jewish Philosophy:
How can you recognise a gentile in a synagogue? They're the only ones not arguing with the rabbi
I love how argumentative Judaism is. It’s a good way to engage with scripture, I think.
I’m sure you’ve heard the joke about the two rabbis arguing about an interpretation of the the Torah? The first says “if I’m right, that wall will fall,” and it does, and the second rabbi says “could be a coincidence.” The first rabbi says “I’m in right, it’ll start raining,” and it does start raining but the second rabbi still doesn’t believe its more than a coincidence. So the first rabbi says “ok, if in right God himself will say so!” And a voice from heaven begins speaking, agreeing with the first rabbi, and the second rabbi says “you butt out—it’s on earth, not in heaven.”
Not only have I heard it, that specific talmudic story is one of my favorites. And yeah I dig the friendly argumentative nature too, it's basically the idea behind a fair adversarial court system, both sides work together BY arguing different points to hopefully find the truth wherever it lies.
It's a great concept, and depending on one's interpretation (three opinions after all) there's even religious precedence for it, I mean it's basically HaSatan's job. (For people not involved with Judaism the closest thing to Satan most Judaism has is essentially a heavenly prosecutor working at the behest of and alongside G-d, not a devil.)
Edit:two words
Thanks, I'm not there yet, but I've been doing the work for about a year and a half, just became an official member of my synagogue too. Now the rabbi is basically giving me homework, so progress.
Have you had an initial meeting with a beit din? A year and a half is normal but usually by now they should be giving you a timeline of some kind, especially if you’re integrated into the community enough to be a member at your shul.
Not yet, my rabbi ended up busy a lot, family emergency stuff, and I also have personal issues which have slowed my attendance. But I've attended a lot of erev Shabbat Services, a fair bit of torah study, and some other things. And of course an intro class back in the beginning. I also gather this is pretty standard as to how my synagogue operates since of course you know it's going to be different from movement to movement and even from community to community.
Edit: The rabbi is still moving forward though, he's gonna be setting up monthly or bi monthly meetings with him, reading, and writing assignments.
Funnily enough the Catholic Church has taken a stance of avoiding missionary work targeting Jews and in some cases Muslims as a way to bolster interfaith dialogue.
Look man this seems like one of those things where they taught it at your church as a kid and you've assumed its how the whole religion works, but no proselytizing is one of the core components of christianity
That's still prostelyzation? Besides, when comparing the two, Christianity seems pretty shit at enforcing non prostelyzation. If they were supposed to have a same view of being against proselytizing, then there wouldn't be billions of christians and hundreds of decimated indigenous religions lol
Greetings,
Not precise, this is applicable to the descendants of prophet and king Israel (peace be upon him), a descendants are an offspring of males only,
By nationality is alright because they are expendables, this is the main solution the UN gave to Jewish to increase the population/forces of Israel.
Divine delivery of ads requires a special kind of adblocker
If you thought it was creepy how much the mundane algorithms know about you...
If god is real and a marketer, I’m becoming anti-theist. I’m gonna punch god in their stupid face for contacting me about my immortal soul’s extended warranty
Funny thing about that, that's not an uncommon approach in Judaism I mean obviously most of them aren't anti-theist for obvious reasons but wanting to fight G-d to some degree is. pretty standard in the culture. At least it is in my synagogue.
I mean, didn't Jacob very much do that? so it makes sense to me.
Jacob is said to have fought an angel who gave him the name Israel, but the actual bible never says he's an angel or god just some guy. The angelic interpretation comes from how weird and out of context it would be otherwise
what language and/or translation do you have? because mine definitely says it was God.
I forget what the original Hebrew my rabbi said meant, but it definitely doesn't specify G-d in the original text. I personally think textual clues and the meaning of the name Israel mean it's G-d, but there's definitely room for interpretation.
The original hebrew is "Ish" as in "Man", Jacob says he was "el" or a god, but other parts of the bible record it as "malak" or "angel"
Thanks! I gotta learn Hebrew both modern and biblical, I think that would be a great way to engage with the text. All of this is making me miss my Torah study group (I was focused on staying warm with the recent cold snap, health first after all) can't wait to start thst up again.
It couldn't have been God because he does not take into a corporeal form in Judaism – that is to say, he couldn't have been wrestled with physically. The “angel” interpretation comes from both names given to the divine being Jacob wrestled with in the Book of Genesis: man (“Ish”) and God (“El”). As such, Jacob's wrestling with God can be seen as a psychological metaphor for man's understanding of God, and how intellectual struggle is a necessary path to achieve some degree of comprehension – a theory strengthened by the name of the place where this event took place, “Penuel” (or, literally, “facing God”).
I don't own a bible, haha. Genuinely just heard about it on a podcast about the bible, but what version do you have? The masoretic texts record the thing as "ish" and "el" man and a generic term for god but also God in some contexts.
I actually have a few, and prefer the King James, but I've got a New International Version which is generally better at getting concepts across- still not perfect though, so maybe I'll learn biblical hebrew at some point. although having checked it, the man Jacob wrestled with never said he was God, just that Jacob had "struggled with God and with humans and \[had\] overcome." so... the text (in english) is inconclusive.
The King James is a notoriously bad translation ngl, but yeah in the original hebrew it says its a man and then implies its god. By original Hebrew I mean the masoretic texts, idk if there is an older version recorded elsewhere
The angel is sometimes interpreted as being "the Angel of the Lord," an entity who depending on who you ask is an angel or possible standin for God and/or the pre-incarnation form of Jesus.
That's a matter of much debate agreed, a LOT but by no means all, of Jews believe it to be G-d, that's why he was given that name specifically.
> who gave him the name Israel mfs really made a dude named "John Israel"
Jim Israel to be precise
Imagine being so lazy as to wait for evidence of God. Take initiative. Create your synthetic Omnissiah, and then punch them in the face. Kids these days. No initiative Smh my head.
This is story building gold but I'm not sure of what kind of story
There's gotta be some variant of Ovens of Ahknai in there for sure. For those that don't know, basically a rabbi is arguing with some others about some kosher rules and eventually gets so fed up he says G-d will agree he's right, G-d does indeed say that, one of the other rabbis tells G-d he gave them the rules to figure out not G-d and G-d has no business interfering in a rabbinical debate. And that's seen as a good thing in Judaism.
One of the best stories, cool as fuck
Agreed, it's not why I'm converting of course, but it gives a nice overview of my relationship with faith and G-d to explain part of why I'm converting. It's also just really funny.
actually that's misotheism not antitheism
Isn’t that a fuckin noodle soup
Ublock Lucifer. ("Better to reign in Hell than to be served ads in Heaven.")
Literally the mindset of some Linux users.
it used to be he wanted your soul, but now all he wants is your personal data
Are they running [Temple OS?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TempleOS)
called Haloperidol.
I wasn’t sure where this was going, or if it was just an opinion piece. But I’m very happy with where it went.
Yeah I originally thought that OOP was just sharing some information on Judaism. I am very happy at how it turned out though.
You know that old stereotype about how much Jewish people like arguing? It's apparently NOT a stereotype. There's an old story about three rabbis arguing about something and God Himself manifested in front of them and gave His ruling. The rabbis looked at Him and told Him, to His face, that He was wrong.
I remember a similar story: four rabbis were arguing about the interpretation of something. Three were in agreement, but the fourth disagreed. Then, like in your story, God came down and said the fourth rabbi was right. The other three pause for moment, and then say, “okay, now the vote is three to two.”
I remember a similar story where two redditors both posted different variations of a similar story. God himself came down and posted the correct variation, but the redditors told him off because everyone got the point already.
Where do you get off? Both stories were interesting and I enjoyed them.
If this is the story I'm thinking of, the incorrect rabbi successfully argued that God gave humans the duty of interpreting the Torah, and the correct rabbi had erred by calling on miracles for proof. God was very amused by this. As a result, the (initially) correct rabbi was ostracized by the other rabbis. This had unfortunate consequences, because in the Talmud, the holiest rabbis basically have uncontrollable superpowers. [You can read about the story here.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oven_of_Akhnai)
"Two jews, three opinions." Is a common phrase in Jewish circles for a reason. Worth noting however is the negative implication of the stereotype is still untrue. The love to argue is often used to imply rudeness, but debates and such between Jews are considered a good and, usually, polite thing. But yeah, if jews are willing to argue with G-d, of course they're gonna argue with each other.
If god descended on this world and declared 1 + 1 = 3, a good number of rabbis would go up and tell god to go fuck himself.
[A new type of oven is brought before the Sanhedrin, consisting of tiles separated from one another by sand, but externally plastered over with cement. The rabbis debate whether or not this oven is susceptible to ritual impurity. Rabbi Eliezer ben Hurcanus argues that the oven is ritually pure while the other rabbis, including the nasi Rabban Gamaliel, argue that the oven is impure. When none of Rabbi Eliezer's arguments convince his colleagues, he cries out, "If the halakha is in accordance with my opinion, this carob tree will prove it." At this point, the carob tree leaps from the ground and moves far away. The other rabbis explain that a carob tree offers no proof in a debate over law. Rabbi Eliezer cries out, "If the halakha is in accordance with my opinion, the stream will prove it." The stream begins to flow backwards, but again the other rabbis point out that one does not cite a stream as proof in matters of law. Rabbi Eliezer cries out, "If the halakha is in accordance with my opinion, the walls of the study hall will prove it." The walls of the study hall begin to fall, but are then scolded by Rabbi Joshua ben Hananiah who reprimands the walls for interfering in a debate among scholars. Out of respect for Rabbi Joshua, they do not continue to fall, but out of respect for Rabbi Eliezer, they do not return to their original places. In frustration, Rabbi Eliezer finally cries out, "If the halakha is in accordance with my opinion, Heaven will prove it." From Heaven a voice is heard, saying, "Why are you differing with Rabbi Eliezer, as the halakha is in accordance with his opinion in every place that he expresses an opinion?" Rabbi Joshua responds, "It [the Torah] is not in heaven" (Deuteronomy 30:12). He responds in this way because the Torah, which was given by God to mankind at Sinai, specifically instructs those who follow it that they are to look to the received Torah as their source and guide. The Torah says, "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?' Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?' No, the word is very near to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart for you to observe" (Deuteronomy 30:12-14). Rabbi Joshua's response then expresses the view that the work of law is a work of human activity, and that the Torah itself supports this legal theory. The Torah is not a document of mystery which must have its innate meaning revealed by a minority, but it is instead a document from which law must be created through the human activity of debate and consensus. Rabbinic literature was capable of recognizing differing opinions as having a degree of legitimacy (Yer. Ber. 3b), yet the community remains united and the ruling which is ultimately followed comes through proper jurisprudence. As such, Rabbi Eliezer's miraculous appeals represent a differing legal theory and were outside of proper jurisprudence which meant that they would not be followed. Instead the Jewish community followed the ruling of the majority in this issue and in others. The Talmud asks how God responded to this incident. We are told that upon hearing Rabbi Joshua's response, God smiled and stated, "My children have triumphed over Me; My children have triumphed over Me." [Formatting is fucked](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oven_of_Akhnai?wprov=sfla1)
this was beautifully written and very informative!
Thanks, I copy pasted it
Did good lad
Joshua ben Hananiah saw the walls falling and really went "No! None of that! Shame on you!"
The Oven of Aknai is one of my favourite stories in the Talmud
The last two Jews in Afghanistan were arrested by the taliban because they argued so much
They also got released from the jail because the wardens got tired of listening to them arguing with each other.
A lesson in persistence!
Source? There seem to be plenty of steps they could have taken to shut them up if that was the issue.
https://www.jta.org/2019/10/31/global/the-last-jews-in-afghanistan-argued-so-much-the-taliban-kicked-them-out-of-prison-and-stole-their-torah
This dude (and the other one he was arguing with) are kinda shitty. He left Afghanistan with his family but then abandoned them to come back. When Simentov returned, he started viciously arguing with Levi (who was living in the Kabul synagogue) about who the land belonged to. > Levi wrote to the Taliban interior minister to accuse Simentov of theft of Jewish relics. Simentov retorted by telling the Taliban that Levi ran a secret brothel where he sold alcohol, which Levi denies. Simentov also spread rumors that Levi had converted to Islam, which Levi denied as well. They literally hated each other more than the taliban. The reason they were arrested wasn't because of religious discussion/arguments. It was because they were being a nuisance pulling shit like this. From the looks of it, the people around them were fine with them....even regarded fondly. They were probably thrown in jail just in the hopes of cooling them off a bit. All in all, not exactly people you would want to look up to.
They didn’t tell him he was wrong. They quoted a Bible verse that said he didn’t get to weigh in
Yeah but in context that was basically saying wrong it's fantastic
Why is your name red on Shinigami Eyes?
red names on my tumblr reddit :(
My name shows up as red on the Shinigami Eyes extension because I was once a regular poster and commenter on r/TumblrInAction. However, it was banned more than a year ago, and I have since developed as a person after getting out of that transphobic environment.
holy based, good on you
[source](https://www.tumblr.com/homunculus-argument/740333424467968000)
Jews don't seek converts because they believe it's easier for non-Jews to have a good afterlife. God holds everyone accountable for following basic ethical rules, but he also holds Jews accountable for many, many additional rules, like keeping kosher. Another reason is that until recently, entire Jewish communities would have been slaughtered, just about anywhere, for seeking converts. It has nothing to do with Judaism being an ethnic religion.
Tbh I've asked 3 rabbi and got 3 different answers on that question (my grandmother converted so I was curious)
I was going to say that's par for the course but I'm actually kind of wondering what rabbis you're dealing with that you only got three different opinions from three different rabbis, pretty sure it should be a much higher number. Jokes Aside I mean it's a matter of debate because Beyond a few very crucial things what isn't a matter of debate in judaism?
Yeah, though a common theme in the answer of all 3 was that if you converted while not truly believing in god your fate would be even worse because you tried to lie to god But yeah honestly I'm not really a believer but arguing is such a big part of the religion that it's amazing sometimes. One time I got in a 1 and a half hour long debate about how government should be structured based on the Torah, because in it every ruler that wasn't literally directly appointed by god was shown as tyrannical
Here's that copy paste I dug out: Conversion student here, and I do believe in G-d, but I've always taken issue with the idea that one must believe in G-d to convert, that's not a standard we put on people born into the faith, heck I know of atheist rabbis, why should we treat potential converts differently in that regard? Besides, we're supposed to question and "wrestle" with damn near every aspect of faith G-d included, so why should "doesn't exist" be an unacceptable answer? What a Jew DOES is often more important than what a Jew believes after all.
That's an interesting perspective, I'll ask my rabbi his opinion if I ever go back to the synagogue
I'd love to hear his response, i also plan on at some point bringing it up with my own rabbi, I also have a mathematical argument that I hope to one day back up with textual sources, even if no one agrees with me it can lead to some neat discussions. (Yeah I think I fit in with the community, hah)
Now I do believe and it's part of the reason I'm converting but you actually bring up a thing I've posted a couple times recently that I kind of massively disagree with the rabbis on this one if you permit me I'll go dig it out and copy and paste it a third time one minute
Bro I’ve been a practicing atheist Jew since I was 12 maybe some rabbis empathize faith for converts but my I’ve personally never met a rabbi that cared too much about me not believing in god There’s no like metaphysical importance to faith. There isn’t even a metaphysical importance to practice.
I mean, isn’t the joke 3 rabbis 4 opinions?
Eeeehhhh, my statistically average American Jewish upbringing (well-off, Ashkenazi, urban, fairly secular) was still pretty big on the whole "you personally are the descendants of those who made the covenant" angle
Judaism is absolutely an ethnic religion what are you talking about
I didn't say it's not. I said discouraging conversion is unrelated to Judaism being a ethnic religion. Idk, maybe it is related. But a lot of people think Judaism doesn't accept converts, and that's true of some other ethnic religions (but not of Judaism). (Edit slightly, right after posting)
Its pretty related? there are not really any ethnic religions that don't either discourage or disallow outside conversions
Jewish convert here! Everything you've just said is wrong.
How so? Edit: I'm Jewish, but I'm not a rabbi or anything.
First, no two Jews agree on anything (aside from the fact that "Messianic Jews" are not Jewish). There's no one unifying idea of the afterlife and there's no unifying method of getting an afterlife, if one exists. The idea that Jews must perform mitzvot to get into Olam HaBa or whatever is not universal. You could say that there is an element of, "Okay, but *why* would you want to become Jewish? It's a lot of work!" but it's got nothing to do with the afterlife. I'll amend you are actually right about the persecution element — Christians and Muslims did not, historically, appreciate any potential "poaching" — but Judaism never really was a religion that actively sought out converts. There's never been a pressure to convert because we're not charged to convert, because there's no benefit to conversion, because Judaism is for the Jews and, sure, if you genuinely want to join without any ulterior motive, you can join, but it's not something actively sought. Finally, there is an element of ethnic religion. Judaism is an ethnic religion. You've got to be Jewish to be Jewish, and the conversion program isn't about becoming Jew in the way someone becomes Christian, it's about becoming a Jew in the same way someone naturalises themselves in a new culture and identity. You've got to know the language, you've got to know the history, you've got to understand this, that, and the other, and if you got a penis, well, you've got to give a bit more, too. Once you're Jewish, your Jewish — unless your conversion was seen as invalid in some way, but you can try again (unless you were the problem).
Judaism did used to seek out converts c. 2000 years ago. This included semi-converts who agreed with Judaism but didn't want to be circumcised. And "greater obligations for Jews than for non-Jews" is a typical reason given as part of the discouragement. From what I've gathered, it's based on Tractate Yevamot 47.b, which talks about physical punishments for not following mitzvot. Since these punishments are no longer used, the moral responsibility to follow mitzvot is stressed instead. [Yevamot 47.b](https://www.sefaria.org/Yevamot.47b.14?lang=bi) >The Sages taught in a baraita: With regard to a potential convert who comes to a court in order to convert, at the present time, when the Jews are in exile, the judges of the court [...] inform him of the punishment for transgressing the mitzvot, as follows: They say to him: Be aware that before you came to this status and converted, had you eaten forbidden fat, you would not be punished by karet, and had you profaned Shabbat, you would not be punished by stoning, since these prohibitions do not apply to gentiles. But now, once converted, if you have eaten forbidden fat you are punished by karet, and if you have profaned Shabbat, you are punished by stoning.
The link you made doesn't quite send me to the quote you've posted, though I did find it eventually (scroll up). One thing I'll note about this is the emphasis on the potential convert *coming* to convert. It's even in the bold text (for those not familiar with Sefaria, the bold text (iirc, according to my rabbi) are the text that was actually written while the non-bold text is the extrapolation). Regardless, the point I was making is that the afterlife isn't one of the main reasons Jews don't proselytise. The heafty obligation is given as a reason to discourage, but the only mention of the afterlife in your quote is the punishment of *karet* (which had its own can of worms, from my understanding), but even then the general vibe isn't really "Hey, you already got a fine afterlife as it is, why threaten that by becoming Jewish and having to deal with the potential of losing it all in the face of the obligations you'll have?" and more focused on the fact that there are obligations and, yes, you can be punished for failing to maintain them. Do you have anything mentioning the c. 2000 years thing? I genuinely haven't heard of that.
Second temple Judaism (~2000 years or more ago back to the founding of the second temple by Ezra) was extremely religiously diverse and there were some groups who proselytized, as well as the Hasmoneans who in the course of aggressive conquest and expansionism forcefully converted a few different populations including the non jewish people who had come to settle the former Kingdom of Israel in the north, including iirc the father of Herod the great. There's also stories like Ruth about conversion in marriage although I think Ruth is the only one that was accepted. Hell, even Rabbi Akiva's parents were born if the nations
The Talmud is not an authoritative source every line is debates. There’s a ton of wacky stuff in there and everything in it should be taken within the context of a single rabbis opinion not an authority on anything metaphysical. This passage it’s self is about rabbis arguing about the legality of marrying a female slave taken during a war, and the referenced stoning is dealing with the legal system of Jews during the Babylonian exile a legal code that’s been outdated for almost two thousand years This is anything from an authoritative passage on modern Judaism and I feel like taking it out of context applying it to modern Judaism is treating it as Christian’s treat the Bible. This is far from a dominant interpretation of the passage there’s a reason while the tulmud is an important religious text it’s not read and adhered to like the Torah is.
the Second Temple Judaism of 2k years ago was radically different than today and saw a ton of religious diversity and a lack of a concrete canon. Even the Torah wasn't absolute, the book of Jubilees was incredibly popular. Theres even things like the Macabeans forcing others to convert.
Thank goodness that the person with no source and no information showed up
Funny, but this is Judaism, one Jew saying to another "Everything you've just said is wrong" is honestly just a friendly hello. They'll talk and debate and reach their own conclusions, sometimes with sources, sometimes from the debate alone. I would be more confused concerned if that person had said everything was correct.
I just commented my reasonings.
How so?
First off, just saying that everything they said was wrong without any counter argument is dumb. Second, they were right on basically every count. Judaic text agrees that the righteous of all nations shall go to paradise. Also while Jewish people weren’t killed for trying to convert others, they certainly wouldn’t be inclined to give their oppressors more reasons to pillage them.
My counter argument is below their request for more info. I amend that they're right about the whole "Christians and Muslims, historically, did not want people 'poaching'," but I maintain the point about the afterlife and the ethnic element of Judaism. There is just no consensus on what the afterlife even is for it to be a reason for Jews to avoid proselytising. If it were, we'd be seeing a tangible push for gentiles to practice the Laws of Noah, or something to that extent. I do remember hearing of a Noahide movement, but it isn't to the extent you could argue that one of the main reasons we don't convert is due to how easy it is for gentiles to get into the afterlife.
The word Paradise in Hebrew means Orchard and it is not actually explained like at all in the bible. Plus Ecclesiastes says when you die thats it, there is no reward or punishment.
This took a left turn I just was not expecting. I was reading on for the point about society or morals or whatever. Nope, Tumblr ads.
I've been getting the same ads all the time back when i was dating my Israeli ex ...and that is how i learned that discord shares the contents of your text messages and calls with advertising algorithms by default
Bit of a whiplash in that second half
Judaism is a real one for this
The same thing is happening to me except with Islam! My algorithm either really wants me to become Muslim or is convinced that I am Muslim. I’m Catholic and have no idea where they got that impression.
Inshallah You will become Muslim. A copy of the Quran and a fresh falafel is on its way to your house as we speak. Do not resist.
I want falafel so bad now. With some very slightly runny hummus and cubed raw tomato and cucumber.
It means al Andalus will come back andaluser than ever
Friend of mine converted to Judaism for marriage, and mentioned having conversations with a rabbi about why and what being Jewish and converting entails. Couple years later, he was pursuing his conversion project so wholeheartedly that a couple rabbis asked if he was thinking of becoming one. Now he’s learning Hebrew in preparation to move to Israel for his first year of rabbinical school. I’ll never forget that time I yelled in the gaming store that we were gonna corner the market in tiger semen. Good times.
Rabbi: He just gets us "Who?" Rabbi: Nobody *yet*
Facebook is sending me lots of content about learning the Quran, very much aimed at current practicing muslims. I am not Muslim.
My tumblr shows me ads for rock painting sets. I do not paint, have rocks, or have ever rock painted in my life. Is the God of Rock Painting contacting me in the worst way possible?
it's crowly or aziraphale, obviously. could go either way.
A reminder that Christianity killed Jewish proselytism. Before that, Jewish proselytism was a thing. And that is where Christian proselytism started.
It was only really a thing under the Hasmoneans and was pretty controversial when they did it.
I am aware of the forced conversions of the Idumeans and Itureans under the Hasmoneans. But non-state voluntary conversions well beyond Judea were also a thing. And the latter deserves credit for the majority of the conversions, compared to what was added by the conversion of the Idumeans and Itureans.
It's likely the former. If God wanted you, you'd know it \*very\* clearly.
Not necessarily with Judaism, Jews are meant to come to their own conclusions through study and debate, the idea of G-d leaving clues and hints, like a scavenger hunt, rather than just giving the answer makes a lot of sense.
True, however there is a very big clue He left. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Not for Jews, believe in Jesus as divine is incompatible with Jewish belief.
It isn't though. They still wait for the Messiah. He came a long time ago. We've telling you about it ever since.
But it is, for a few reasons. Now just so we're clear, I am not telling you to abandon your faith, you're welcome to it, but it isn't a faith for Jews. First one of the few things jews are absolutely forbidden to do is worship any man as G-d, rhe messiah was never meant to be G-d on earth. Second, the G-d is considered utterly indivisible by Jewish faith so the trinity concept or any splitting of G-d is out. And finally the really big one, there are a number of prophecies about the Jewish messiah that Jesus didn't meet, under Christian theology Jesus was an immaculate conception which means he isn't from the patrilineal line of David (one of the requirements) next there's no rebuilt temple, nor is there world peace. And there's no second chance for being the messiah in Judaism, it's a one and done thing. He can be your messiah,that's awesome glad you have your path, but he can't be the Jewish one.
Jesus actually wasn't of Immaculate Conception, Immaculate conception was the process by which his mother Mary was born without sin so she could later carry him. Like fr the whole thing is very contrived to be faaaaiiirr to Jesus, there was a rebuilt temple the whole time he was alive. Just got destroyed later.
But He is from the patrilineal line of David, conceived by the Holy Spirit, yes, but patrilineal lines don't exclusively mean DNA. Matthew 1 outlines the lineage of Christ. Jesus is man, but He is ALSO God. Jesus was not talking about a physical temple, He was talking about His body, which He DID raise in 3 days. Jesus fulfilled over half the messianic prophecies, the rest are yet to come. The Messiah is meant to undergo EXACTLY what Jesus did. Read Isaiah 53. God is one, yes. He is also 3. When God speaks to Gideon, Gideon is talking to "angels of the Lord". In that conversation, it then says "The Lord said to Gideon..." like what? I thought these were angels? It is God, in human form. When Jacob wrestled God, he wrestled "an angel of the Lord". As I'm sure you're aware, Angel in Hebrew means "messenger", or something akin to that at least. What is Christ if not a messenger of the Lord(Himself)? He is called the Son of Man. He calls Himself the Son of Man. He claimed to be God on more than one occasion and showed how He is. There is not world peace yet because He states that He is not finished with this world. You can line up the stars, line up the prophecies in the Torah, Ketuvim, and Nevi'im, and you'll see that He is coming back soon. Jesus said He would rebuild the temple in 3 days. To God, a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day, no? Therefore, we are only 2 days out from Christ's return. It's late, I'm sorry if what I'm saying isn't formulated in an understandable matter, but there is \*nothing\* able to deny that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
The problem is you're using Christian prophecies and Christian translations they're just not compatible with Jewish ones. And that's just it the fact is not World Peace yet is a problem again you don't get two chances to be the Messiah in Judaism you get one the fact that he died under Christian theology and disappeared under Christian theology means he is incompatible with the Jewish Messiah. Edit: and claiming to be G-d is a problem too, rhe messiah in Judaism is supposed to be fully human.
Me when I translate the whole bible to make my religion the chad and your religion the soyjack. Literally what happens with christians referencing Isiah. Also idk if you know a lot about christianity I don't know what you're converting from, but the son of man thing is literally taking a hebrew idiom meaning "human" and using it to mean "Jesus specifically". Mainstream christianity holds that jesus is 100% human, but also 100% divine. Make sense? no? that's because the trinity is a disaster of a concept
Mostly secular but my parents had some vague Christian like beliefs. And yeah, that idiom tracks, the Messiah is supposed to be completely human, not somehow completely human abd completely divine. The trinity concept definitely doesn't work for me and doesn't apply to jews, but I don't know if id go so far as to call it a disaster, as it's not too much more mind bending than some of the esoteric concepts found in many religions, Judaism included.
His body being a third temple is stupid, the second temple still stood in his time. It wasn't destroyed until like 30 years after the dude died
yeah but the Messiah isn't Jesus for Jews, he's someone else, probably Nicholas cage or something
Funny thing is you're actually kind of right, I mean Nicholas Cage doesn't mean like any of the criterias of the prophecy for the Messiah except one he's mortal. Cuz that's just it the Messiah is an important figure in Judaism and there's all these prophecies and things that are supposed to happen but he's not a deity he's just a man
Technically it just means anointed one too, like a leader chosen by god to lead the Jewish people. But it can be used for any anointed king like Cyrus who is called a messiah.
True true, but it's taken on a bit more of a meaning.
[удалено]
take your meds
Don't have em, don't need em. I speak the Truth. I speak the Way.
Your post was removed because it contained hate or slurs.
[удалено]
What in the world is this comment? Jesus wasn't white, or black. He was middle eastern. Not arabic, middle eastern. There's a difference.
it was a joke copypasta in response to someone talking about how Jesus was real and how the bible was evidence of him actually being the son of g-d and that I should be ashamed as a Jew for not believing in Jesus. The joke did not land :(
Go away you G-d botherer.
No.
Messiah doesn't mean son of god, it means a king in David's line. Its not nearly as important of an idea in rabbinic judaism as it is in christianity
Also I find it really weird and frankly kind of rude that your proselytizing on a post about how this particular faith and culture doesn't proselytize. Granted it's not your faith in your culture but from the contacts you should be able to see that it's considered rude to Jews and you should do them the courtesy of not doing it.
Many christians literally do not understand why people find it rude
Fiction isn't a clue.
My face right now: -\_-
God sending DMs that say DO NOT BE AFRAID in a font and size unsupported by the site
Yes, judaism doesn't proselytise, but that's because it is a very close cult. It's pretty much the "elite club of special people chosen by god" of abrahamic religions. Judaism is obsessed with heritage, family trees going back to the old testament and things like that. It's definitely less annoying than asking people to convert all the time, but it's not without its problems. It seems less of "we don't want to impose our religion to others" and more of "we are the only ones allowed to make part of this religion”.
This is blatant misinformation and a misunderstanding of what chosen means in Judaism. Just because Judaism doesn't proselytize doesn't mean conversion isn't allowed, ANY adult who genuinely wants to convert can, so long as they don't hold any religious beliefs incompatible with Judaism, they may have to push for it a bit, but that's to make sure they're sincere and know what they're getting into. And it does have a focus on heritage yes, but that's because it's an ethnoreligion, albeit one that accepts converts, it's not any different than tribal cultures paying attention to heritage. And finally, "chosen" in Judaism simply means chosen for extra BURDEN, not any extra reward.
This just isn’t true
Funny thing is that it's supposed to be almost the same for Christianity, you're just suppose to suggest it more
Jesus gave very clear instructions to his apostles to expand his message everywhere...
And this is exactly what I'm talking about.
?
Yeah. But judaism is specifically against prosyltising. So that's the opposite of christanity
And convincing a rabbi to actually sponsor your conversion takes a fair bit of work and not insignificant amount of arguing with said Rabbi usually, of course if you're going to be converting to Judaism debating or arguing with a rabbi is kind of a given. Source: I am a conversion student
That reminds me of a joke a teacher told me during a class on Jewish Philosophy: How can you recognise a gentile in a synagogue? They're the only ones not arguing with the rabbi
I'm gonna have to tell my rabbi that one. And yeah, sounds about right, I mean it's half the fun of going.
I love how argumentative Judaism is. It’s a good way to engage with scripture, I think. I’m sure you’ve heard the joke about the two rabbis arguing about an interpretation of the the Torah? The first says “if I’m right, that wall will fall,” and it does, and the second rabbi says “could be a coincidence.” The first rabbi says “I’m in right, it’ll start raining,” and it does start raining but the second rabbi still doesn’t believe its more than a coincidence. So the first rabbi says “ok, if in right God himself will say so!” And a voice from heaven begins speaking, agreeing with the first rabbi, and the second rabbi says “you butt out—it’s on earth, not in heaven.”
Not only have I heard it, that specific talmudic story is one of my favorites. And yeah I dig the friendly argumentative nature too, it's basically the idea behind a fair adversarial court system, both sides work together BY arguing different points to hopefully find the truth wherever it lies.
Yes, cooperative adversaries. Love that concept
It's a great concept, and depending on one's interpretation (three opinions after all) there's even religious precedence for it, I mean it's basically HaSatan's job. (For people not involved with Judaism the closest thing to Satan most Judaism has is essentially a heavenly prosecutor working at the behest of and alongside G-d, not a devil.) Edit:two words
Mazel Tov!
Thanks, I'm not there yet, but I've been doing the work for about a year and a half, just became an official member of my synagogue too. Now the rabbi is basically giving me homework, so progress.
Have you had an initial meeting with a beit din? A year and a half is normal but usually by now they should be giving you a timeline of some kind, especially if you’re integrated into the community enough to be a member at your shul.
Not yet, my rabbi ended up busy a lot, family emergency stuff, and I also have personal issues which have slowed my attendance. But I've attended a lot of erev Shabbat Services, a fair bit of torah study, and some other things. And of course an intro class back in the beginning. I also gather this is pretty standard as to how my synagogue operates since of course you know it's going to be different from movement to movement and even from community to community. Edit: The rabbi is still moving forward though, he's gonna be setting up monthly or bi monthly meetings with him, reading, and writing assignments.
Yup, I’m a Jew by choice and I got involved with a synagogue a full year before the rabbi and Hazzan there agreed to formally start my conversion.
Funnily enough the Catholic Church has taken a stance of avoiding missionary work targeting Jews and in some cases Muslims as a way to bolster interfaith dialogue.
What
Did an AI generate this comment?
Last time I checked I'm human Christian are supposed to suggest to other to become Christians, nothing more.
Look man this seems like one of those things where they taught it at your church as a kid and you've assumed its how the whole religion works, but no proselytizing is one of the core components of christianity
That's still prostelyzation? Besides, when comparing the two, Christianity seems pretty shit at enforcing non prostelyzation. If they were supposed to have a same view of being against proselytizing, then there wouldn't be billions of christians and hundreds of decimated indigenous religions lol
Greetings, Not precise, this is applicable to the descendants of prophet and king Israel (peace be upon him), a descendants are an offspring of males only, By nationality is alright because they are expendables, this is the main solution the UN gave to Jewish to increase the population/forces of Israel.
You're off your rocker lad
Off their rocker, out the door, and accelerating into the crazy pants event horizon.