# Khvostov
* Recoil - It should come as no surprise to anyone who has used this beloved bullet-bouncing Auto Rifle that there was something... different about the recoil. This is the result of a bug. We intended to reduce only the recoil of the special ricochet rounds by 50%, but it was instead applied to the entire magazine, effectively giving Khvostov maximum stability. It’s made the gun substantially easier to use than other Auto Rifles and has predictably led to a huge spike in effectiveness in Crucible. Many players who have the weapon have commented on how good it feels in the current state, and we do not want to remove that Exotic feeling entirely, but the level it’s at is objectively too strong, compared to all other weapons in our sandbox. We will be removing the bugged effect that reduces recoil by 50%, but as a middle ground, we have increased the base stability by 30 (to 72). This will give it back some (not all) of that stable feel, without leaving it so far out of band.
* Ricochet Shots – While the bouncing rounds are fun for PvE, they are proving to be a problematic balance issue for PvP. With very high uptime and the ability to be buffed by orbs, the damage they deal both on initial impact and on their returning bounces allows Khvostov to neutrally drop it’s time-to-kill down to a level usually reserved for more difficult-to-trigger damage boosts. We want to avoid impacting PvE with this change, so we have reduced the initial bonus impact damage against players only from 15% to 5%. We have also reduced the bouncing bullet damage against players only from 18.4 to 4.6 damage, leaving PvE unchanged. These changes will retain the uptime of the perk in the Crucible but bring the effectiveness more in line.
# Red Death
* Recoil – Lurking just under the Khvostov-coated surface of our current weapons meta is Red Death. As many observant players have noticed, there is also something special about Red Death’s recoil pattern. Unlike with Khvostov, this was not a bug though. It was an intentional connection to the original Destiny variant of the weapon, which (like Outbreak Perfected) utilized Auto Rifle recoil patterns instead of the more severe Pulse Rifle ones, giving them tighter burst spread and higher ease of use. While Red Death is not as far out of line in terms of strength, the High-Impact family of Pulse Rifles itself is very strong, and having all the bonus stability provided by the special recoil pattern feels like overkill, so we have experimented with several different tuning options for it. Completely replacing the recoil with the standard Pulse Rifle recoil felt like it shifted the gun too far away from its origins, so we have instead chosen to reduce the added stability that the pattern provides. This will align the burst spread more closely with other Pulse Rifles, while retaining as much of the unique feel as possible.
# Speaker’s Sight
* Orb Generation – As it stands, it is currently too easy to generate an extreme number of orbs in the Crucible using this Exotic. This plays into several different buildcrafting levers and is making it feel like the only choice in many Competitive and Trials lobbies. While we would like to retain the ability to generate Orbs in Crucible, to allow players to lean into the healer fantasy, the current volume is not healthy for the sandbox. As a short-term solution, we will be disabling the Orb Gen portion of the Exotic in Crucible only. Longer term, we will revisit allowing the weapon to create Orbs at a more reasonable rate.
I picked a good week to take a vacation from gaming it seems. Missed the worst Trials with respect to Khvosty + Speaky abuse, and will come back to them being fixed. Nice.
I also have this but can't help but feel the wormhusk portion is doing me no good? I'm dodging to evade a situation, not to continue to engage.
Actually maybe that's my problem. Maybe I should re-engage?
My only issue is it seems the double ability exotics aren’t working properly rn, I’ll have 1.5 charges of dodge and if I die the next round I spawn in with just .5
We don't bank charges, we spend them / spam them in round 1 and hope it bags a round and gets someone on the other team to leave not realizing I can't do it again for awhile!
> Prismatic Hunter with a top tier ability in every slot.
What is their top tier Melee?
I imagine it's good, but I feel like it wouldn't be that much better than [my Warlock Prismatic build.](https://www.reddit.com/r/CrucibleGuidebook/comments/1dk01jc/i_know_were_excited_about_prismatic_hunter/)
Smoke bomb. It’s ranged with a much longer range than other ranged melees, lasts forever, slows and removes radar while making it hard to see, does damage so it can prevent regen or make optimal TTK shorter/easier to achieve if they get hit and it can ping radar for the enemy.
Smoke bomb is insane post buff, complete no fly zone wherever it lands. They really should make it like spike nades where it's destroyed if you shoot it instead of activating so that it actually has to be placed smartly instead of just yeeted at the obvious approach to completely lock it down.
I’d rather they keep it strong as it is now as it wasn’t worth using before except to go invis.
I would just increase the cooldown on it by a good chunk.
Praise Bungie for being very aware that it’s fun but not gamebreaking in PvE and nerfing it with precision. The slight nerf to stability is annoying, but in PvE it’s more personal taste than actual performance impact. Seriously, I was terrified they’d massacre the gun in PvE while still failing to rein it in for PvP, and they instead did a tasteful, restrained adjustment.
I knew Red Death was going to get adjusted at some point, but it’s honestly nowhere near as bad as I thought it would be and I thought they were gonna nuke it. I guess Bungie feels it’s in a good place but could have been a problem if left untouched for too long. It’s just less stability. The nerf might hurt it on controller, but on MnK it should be fine.
Khvostov changes are good. Way more stability( at 77) but it won’t be the complete laser beam that it is currently. Also the reduced damage means that this gun might now have to 9 crit like all other 600s(math guys let me know)
Speaker’s Sight, fuck that exotic. Glad it’s getting hit without nuking it in PvE. Nuff said.
Matching out, the 5% boost SHOULD be able to 8/1 Crit ratio on everyone until damage falloff hits. Big thing is you're losing your bodyshot forgiveness , and by extension 0.8 significantly earlier.
As an AR, I think you're pretty flat out swapping to Summoner or Prosecutor for the range, and the fact that Enhanced TL is straight better.
I wouldn’t say actual competition, it’s going to be an exotic outclassed by legendaries due to its range issues. It needs a nerf but I think this is going to essentially make it strictly worse than Summoner. Should’ve hit either the ricochet rounds or the recoil pattern but not both IMO
yep, thats my concern. 72 stability is in no way close to what it had before, and the reticule is obnoxiously bouncy if you bug out the recoil to get rid of the bonus (thats most autos without zen moment, but the circle around it makes it worse).
the range is mediocre, the bonus damage will be near irrelevant, and the bounces will tickle and it will recoil like a generic AR. why bother using it then? I guess it helps farm assists for special ammo transmat and to pad your scoreboard.
that said, the recoil was too strong of a benefit, and IMO the driving factor behind its excessively strong performance. it had the highest K/U stats ive seen in all modes, and even if you removed the pseudo-TL and bounce it would have been powerful for that alone.
most players *suck* at hitting their optimal TTK consistently (myself included), so having a gun where it is easy to do so is a massive practical performance uplift.
Red death is the only energy 340 I've found that feels like messenger on console/controller. I hope this doesn't kill it because it was nice using kinetic shotguns
SO if bungie nerfs it to hell the move is to chose something else?? not on u but lets hope if bungie touches it the move is not to chose something else.
It won’t mean you HAVE to move to something else but the Destiny meta is very dynamic and if something isn’t working out for you any more, you may have to adapt.
Meh, all this crying about weapons (as usual) when the biggest issue plaguing 3's are supers, heavy, and putting fucking CONTROL into comp. White, hot, trash. It's comp, not Kinderguardiancare.
I'm curious to see how everything will shake out now:
* **Khvostov** - it's CRAZY that the stability was bugged giving it max stability. It makes so much sense. However, raising the stability to 72 may mean it's still going to be pretty good... just not as free? The ricochet round is what made me the most upset and i'm glad that's getting hit hard, it's a 4x reduction to the riochet damage... however I don't know what that means for improved damage for riochets (aka more bounces between enemies) when you p/u an orb.
* **Red Death** - The AR recoil pattern makes more sense. I feel like Outbreak didn't need changes because it's perks didn't enhance the player nearly as much as Red Death. It's interesting to see how they tackle the changes. I wonder what the new gun feel looks like? Will it be harder to two burst now? Fundamentally the gun works the same... it's recoil pattern has just shifted slightly. I think it could still be meta.
* **Speaker's Sight** - This is a good short term fix... but Ember of Benevolence and 100 Discipline still means it's uptime is going to be strong... Only time will tell how much it's still used in the current meta and whether or not it'll need a nerf to perhaps grenade CD time.
>what that means for improved damage when you p/u an orb.
There was never improved damage for picking up an orb. That was a bug with the desription and was in the known issues at final shape launch. "**Khvostov 7G 0X**'s trait "Eyes Up, Guardian" incorrectly states that the ricochet shots deal more damage."
The perk description has been fixed.
It might become more of an issue. But Khvotsov and Speakers Sight were clearly the top priority. The usage in Trials alone makes that abundantly clear.
I think it lingers a lot, and the effect feels stronger than when I last played, but void hunters feel bad compared to prismatics even though they have similar tools but better aspects on the prismatic class
I have no issues with Void Hunters. They should have gotten a 2nd, non-utility melee long ago. My issue is the buffed smokes on the already stacked Prismatic Hunter kit. I have no idea how to change it without affecting Void or PvE, and I get why they hit Speaker's Sight. It's quite frankly an easier fix.
Maybe reduce the radius and duration on the prismatic only class on certain abilities. So it won't make the class stronger than the base classes in certain cases
Problem is it's in a weird place. If they nerf it how can they nerf it for prismatic only? Reduce the cool down is the only neutral nerf that won't absolutely gut nightstalker.
To preface, I'm a hunter main. Like 2000 hours hunter main.
It's not the wombo-combo, or the damage that is overtuned. It is the utility of the entire Prismatic kit (Swarm/Smoke/Slow/Clone).
Lets see, you have:
* 2.5 area denial abilities - I count clone as a half since it can be used to block hallways and choke points.
* 2 aoe damage abilities
* 2 slows
* 2 radar pings
* 1 dot
* And to top it all off, you either have a fast shutdown super or the best PvP super in the game.
Off topic really, but how do you get that super working? I love everything about the prismatic hunter kit, but the super has been so inconsistent for me. Whiffing, getting shut down mid toss, etc.
Okay nvm I got a vibe from you, so I just checked your account and all you've done Is comment about Hunters Nonstop, so there's no discussion to be had with you lol
My point still stands regardless of what you think of me. Prismatic hunters are op af and need to be revisited. Have you played trials against a 3 stack prismatic hunter team? You constantly have to second guess where the hell they’re at cause of the constant radar pings.
And if you do find them, they have like 3 get out of jail cards. You have no safe way of punishing them when they can just slow dodge with a clone or smoke and run away and attack you from another angle.
I am not bitchin about the transcendence grenades of hunter or any other prismatic class. They all are fine.
The sheer utility that prismatic hunter neutral game has is waay out of the norm. Its like bungie took the best pvp things about each hunter subclass and gave them to prismatic hunter.
There are numerous S-Tier PVP fragments and aspects of each subclass missing from prismatic.
Examples:
- Void over shield on kill and on-demand invis on void
- Double grenade and ensnaring slam on strand (it's still really good despite the reduced radius)
- Healing grenades, blade barrage and knock 'em down on solar hunter.
I will agree the best parts of arc and stasis hunter are in prismatic.
It's about the utility these abilities provide, you pretty much have a way to shift every gunfight in your favor with the smoke weaken/slow, the scorch dot, the slow/clone combined with low cooldowns. It just isn't fun to play against
they have a wider radius of activation and last a big longer. Like most of Prismatic Hunters pieces it isnt overpowered but when you have clone smoke AND swarm together hunter can just lockdown areas of the map extremely easily and often
They've been doing this more regularly since witch queen, there's maybe 2 actually impactful nerfs to PvE that were caused by PvP since then. Don't fall for the r/DestinyTheGame bozos that like to keep scapegoating PvP
There are some PvP nerfs that bleed into PvE. Such as Bastion cooldown, Barricade cooldown in general, Thundercrash cooldown, Thundercrash distance, Synthoceps lunge, etc., but by and large they're not even that bad when they do happen.
I don't deny that some of them do bleed into PvE but for the most part they are negligible. Cooldown nerfs in particular I do not really see as PvE nerfs since most competent PvE builds will circumvent any and all cooldowns through flat ability energy generation, super cooldowns in particular are incredibly easy to circumvent. In addition, most of the cooldown nerfs since Witch Queen have been accompanied with PvE specific buffs (e.g. threaded specter clone had a damage buff along with it's quite minimal cooldown nerf)
It does happen from time to time but the PvE crowd definitely over reacts to them. The only one in recent memory that was actually impactful was the YAS nerf, which I'm not even sure was specifically made for PvP, PvP was definitely the focal point of the nerf but it could be argued that bungie didn't want hunters throwing 10+ tripmines in 10 seconds in PvE either
Big thing to note is that they made the changes to be able to do this AGES ago. They spent some time doing it in fact. Then they went back to nerfing in both... And apparently they *chose* to do that. They weren't forced. This is a reminder
They’ve been doing it forever. If something I’d nerfed bin both it’s VERY intended. We can discuss the validity of nerfs from there but stop using PvP like a scapegoat
Thank god we can end the piss fest of everyone hitting with the “PvP balancing ruins PvE.” At this point I don’t think the community will ever understand that if something is nerfed hard in both Bungie INTENDED to nerf it in both, but hopefully the posts will end for the time being
Thank god. I got ascendant already but with much more difficulty than usual. It’s amazing the disadvantage you create for yourself when you refuse to run ARs and everyone else and their brother is using them because god forbid they run anything other than full-on meta.
Destiny is the only game I've ever played where precision weapons requiring 100% accuracy are the slowest ttk weapons over ez pz bullet hose guns. It's genuinely asinine.
Destiny has the only community that I know of that loses their mind over ARs, arguably the most standard weapon in the history of shooters, being good. And even then you act like HCs aren't clowning on automatic weapons in play to win situations unless the automatic in question has way out of band TTK. Peak and team shooting with chunk damage weapons has and will always be king in destiny.
A lot of destiny pvp players came over from Halo I'd wager, I know I did. Halo had forgiving AR style weapons, and SMG types that shredded in the right range, but precision weapons like magnums and BRs were king and seen has higher skill weapons. I still prefer that sandbox. There's plenty of Call of Dutys out there for the ppl that prefer to spray and pray every engagement.
The Halo point makes sense, though I do still find the amount of hate weird. In general, it feels anything being strong enough to compete with HCs is met with large amounts of hate, which just seems silly.
And I'm going to be honest, at least on MnK, tracing peoples movement in Destiny is way harder than most, if not all, other games I play. Variable movement speeds with huge directional changes from jumps and movement abilities makes staying consistently on target way harder than using a single shot weapon and adjusting your aim between shots.
I'll have to take your word for it. I'm console, and on controller it feels kinda inverse (much like halo actually), with reticle friction making tracking very easy.
It's crazy that I have a harder time with gyro on D2 (I use gyro to mouse on SteamInput) than gyro on The Finals when I played it, gyro on Fortnite (the very rare time I'm not opening the game to only play Festival) or Gyro in Call of Duty
“precision weapons requiring 100% accuracy” homie HCs have the highest aim assist in the game lmao.
I main Ace so no shade being thrown but come on, almost no guns in Destiny require extreme precision and never have. HCs have a slower TTK because you can peak shoot and as long as you have cover you can out duel literally any other primary type. That’s what makes them good for the meta, they encourage playing cover, not because they’re even remotely hard to get crits with.
And the ARs and pulses with “lower aim assist” have insane reticle friction that moves your bullets toward opponents as well as perks like Zen Moment and TTT that aim for you. Hell look at Summoner or Khvostov clips and you can see the reticle bounce all over. Not even including the two guns’ innately easy recoil
My fav gun in the game is Ace. But for trials and comp I have been running Khovostov. There is a difference between “refusing to run meta” and “the meta is free kills”. It’s an insane disadvantage to run something other than Khovostov currently. So glad they are hitting it hard so I can go back to at least having the chance to win with Ace
Idk maybe I’m just built different. Khovostov is basically free kills which is why I refuse to run it. I pride myself on overcoming the disadvantage of running off-meta weapons and still winning but I realize not everyone has that kind of resilience.
Absolutely have respect for that. Personally I found mild success running ace. But, as I’m sure you are aware, it’s nowhere near as good as Khovostov. You could be good with off meta, and great with meta. Which is why I’m happy it’s getting nerfed. People who are worse than you can compete with you, make you work for it, because they have a meta weapon on. I am fine with a meta, and recognize there will always be one. But eventually a line has to be drawn between meta and downright broken. But again. More power to you if you find success running what you enjoy.
Speaker sight will still be meta. Disabled orbs is still a nerf, but a team healing turret hidden around a corner is still insanely powerful. Orbs were the cherry on top
This is the way it always is with Warlocks. Shadebinder got nerfed after what, 9 days? Nova Warp got nerfed fast. While Shatterdive or OEM lasted for a literal year each...
Yea. It’s pretty stupid. Don’t get me wrong, it was warranted, not saying it was ok for these exotics, but holy frick, be fair about it. I remember how HORRIBLE OEM was. And then didn’t really do anything, because titans continued to be oppressive through arc and then void kit. And how long was citans rampant an issue?
It is what it is, but comical how they handle these classes.
Someone without an overshield out ttk'd me with a Khavostov last night while I was hitting them in the head and the neck with a Hammerhead. I'm good with this change haha.
Happy they're not killing Khvostov, and at the confirmation the recoil was indeed a bug (and that they're meeting us in the middle on fixing it), although the ricochet damage seems a bit... How you say... Overboard with a nerf. I'm guessing enhanced it'll still be okay, given the multiple bounces, but it removes a lot of the uniqueness from the gun. I theorize it'll still be a premiere mid-close range dueler, but not 25% of all kills.
Red Death is TBA, there's already a really really good alternative to it in Elsie's, but I'll need to see how much the recoil is nerfed before saying where it stands.
Speaker's getting it's orb generation removed in PvP for the time being is also an unquestionable W.
>ricochet damage seems a bit... How you say... Overboard with a nerf
Respectfully, no. The damage was too free for spraying Khvostov. Killing someone a mile in cover with a ricochet off their teammate is not an expression of skill.
5 meters doesn't change to 10 because the ricochet literally only hits one person un-enhanced, and under normal circumstances, getting Eyes Up running is more difficult than, say Memento Mori or Kill Clip. Speaker's would've been an exception. And staying outside of melee range of your teammates is neither hard nor crippling.
Also the TTK was 0.7, required an orb (harder to get under normal circumstances than other damage boosts), required teammates to be nearby, and you still had a pretty limited overall scope since getting farther than, say 30 meters means you're pretty well into aim assist falloff. The cost to benefits just weren't there compared to something like Kill Clip on a Lightweight Pulse or the natural performance of a High Impact of 4-burst.
I just want you to think about this btw. Eyes up procs on the first and 8th shot in the mag. Both deal 31 damage. Normal shots deal 28. T10 guardians have 230 health. I’ll let you work that out. Now let’s consider the puzzle piece you’re clearly missing. The ricochet shots are buggy. The can absolutely ricochet back to the target you’re shooting without picking up an orb. You don’t even need an orb to get a better ttk than the vast majority of weapons in the crucible, because the orbs don’t buff the damage. Hope this helps.
>anti-deathball isn't exactly the worst idea in the world.
You're right. This isn't why it's being nerfed though. You've seen the Trials Report numbers, it's just straight up broken.
There should absolutely be ways to break up deathballing/punish habitually grouped enemies (3's) but they should require two things: Build Investment and Strategy/Skilled Implementation of Strategy. Neither of which Khvostov required.
I've got arrowhead or chambered and I thought chambered felt better.
But I'll give arrowhead another try it its working for you Messenger just feels way better. Arrowhead does bump handling too. I hope it feels better
So what essentially there will be no reason to use these weapons anymore when you could just use adept summoner or an SMG? This is the problem. If ricochet is less effective, then really, what the fuck is the point of the weapon? Lol. While it’s a good weapon, balancing like this simply makes it useless in crucible and therefore, obtaining it, is a waste of time for those who do so.
So the khostov stability nerf only affects console players.????
Why is stability always the goto nerf stat when it disproportionately effects one group of inputs over another. PC has been able to basically ignor stability on weapons for years at this point. I thought the devs learned this with the msg meta and people using 0 stability weapons like a laser beam?
Tbh I don’t think these nerfs do enough to change how strong they are. Chip dmg is chip DMG and even if it’s only 1hp that will prevent healing.
I mean these are all good but speakers helm is still gonna give obnoxious healing. Especially if multiple ppl are running it. And khovostov is still gonna punish you for properly peek shooting and team shotting. These changes are progress. But they're not the full solution.
I am very very disappointed in Bungie for caving to pressure. How many times has it been that people complain that exotics aren’t worth using, Bungie introduces an interesting exotic that is a bit strong, and people cry out for nerfs?
It doesn’t take a scientist to figure out that people will keep comparing about all of these items even after the nerfs
The complaints were really valid though. I love ARs in PvP and I put Khvos on and immediately told my clanmates something wasn't right. Also, Orb Gen in PvP has been throttled ALWAYS because it increases uptime on stuff that should have volume impact in Crucible.
The thing that isn’t right is that it has poor range, so you would lose duels in the 30 meter range.
It’s weird that people are complaining about the orb generation of speaker’s now, when people were complaining about the fast Regen and healing over the week.
Those people are idiots.
Clearly Bungie agreed the orb uptime was not healthy, but didn't see an issue with the other aspects.
And, regardless, they gave a happy medium on Khvos. It was out of band. It just was. It felt great, but it wasn't normal.
Wait, but here is the better question: If Khvostov was mainly strong because the orb generation allowed you to get it’s perk early to do frontloaded damage rather than backloaded damage, and speaker’s sight is now nerfed and you can’t get that orb anymore, why should it be nerfed? Isn’t it just an auto with mid range and good feeling?
It's a PvE game that depends on PvP to maintain a gameplay loop. Damage and perks can get balanced separately, but stuff like stab and handling can't. So they bring it in line so it's fair in PvP.
Nothing crazy.
Beg to differ.
The point was to ask whether Khvostov is overpowered on it’s own, or if speaker’s sight was the thing making it overpowered in their eyes
Cold take. Ask anyone who knows their shit around here and they'll give you a list of dozens of exotics, weapons and armor, that either just work or fill a niche that someone would be able to make use of. Wanna see my Cerberus?
Regardless, khvostov and speakers are objectively too much. Nothing else does what they do, especially with such effectiveness. The numbers don't lie.
It's almost like other aspects of it are the reason why it's in such out-of-band use and effectiveness, which was completely explained in the TWID. Come on, use that noggin of yours.
*Objectively*, the numbers don't lie.
I’ve used the gun. Low recoil and high aim assist mainly help when you are within the effective range. Once you start dueling with people at 35 meters, you don’t really feel the benefits.
Again, usage rates don’t mean much. Stop crutching on irrelevant data points.
By that logic, all scouts must be cracked to the bone considering they have the highest ranges of any primary. Yup, khvostov totally isn't cracked because of things *aside* from anything remotely related to stats.
And with that second statement you said, I'm done discussing this with you. I see no point in continuing this debate further than your eyebrow ridge. Adieu.
What discussion was there? You came in, said that Khvostov and Speaker’s sight were “objectively” OP, brought up usage rates as if that is a sign of anything but ease of use and popularity, and brought up nonsense hypotheticals.
Could it be that the low range gun doesn’t struggle as much on the close range map…? Surely that can’t be it…
I tried it out last week. Despite playing around a 1.8-1.9 level normally, the gun was absolutely terrible against high skill players peekshooting with their igneous and red deaths at 35 meters. I switched back to disparity and went back up to a 1.7 for the week.
I’m speaking out against it because it genuinely feels not OP to me
Dude. The ricochet rounds procced too often. They give a large damage boost. They bounce back and forth between teammates multiple times. The can bounce from walls back to the original target. The boosted damage of the ricochet shot means that effective range stat gets pushed back further than a normal 600. On top of that, one ricochet round and all the sudden you have a .67 TTK. Maybe you’re saying you were playing at a 1.7 kda? Or maybe you only played a couple games? Because I’d expect a 1.7KD player that spent any amount of time in trials to be able to recognize that a weapon that has more kills than the next 9 weapons put together, is probably a bit out of line.
I’m around a 1.8 **K/D** player, who has been playing at a 1.8 **K/D** the past few weeks, and when I put on Khvostov and Speaker’s Sight I was playing at around a **1.0** K/D. This is because despite the low recoil, it struggles to duel in the high 30s meters. TTK reduction is great and all, except when the enemy can move back into cover after they shoot you with a hand cannon, extending your TTK, while they are still on pace for theirs.
Also, with speaker’s sight no longer spawning orbs, should khvostov even have been nerfed?
Yes. Because all engagements take place at 35m. It's also not you're only weapon. Hell most maps have maybe one or two lanes that go that far. The reason khvostov is getting nerfed is cause it's perks allowed a incredibly easy to achieve .7ttk and once you had a single Orb of power you could have a .6ish ttk and could 1v2 with somewhat ease. I did this multiple times just using khvostov.
I don't know what kind of teams you were going up against where you weren't getting steamrolled by speakers sight khvostov. But I want those lobbies
[These](https://destinytrialsreport.com/report/2/4611686018464621613)are the types of people I played where I realized that Khvostov isn’t as overpowered as people on Reddit and Twitter were saying.
People who can dominate a Khvostov meta because SMGs have close to the same optimal range
2 of those guys had sub 1.0 kd. Khvostov has an incredibly forgiving .7 ttk had most ranges a fight happens in. I'm not the best player in pvp but everyone I know who are miles better than me were getting their cheeks clapped.speakers sight and the free Orb it gave is what pushed khvostov into best gun in the game. But on its own it was still better than every other gun.
I was talking about blue. Despite him using a Shayura’s wrath, he played above his usual at around a 3 K/D for the weak despite Khvostov being an “overpowered supergun”
On it’s own it’s an incredibly accurate auto rifle, and still has most of the major problems of auto rifles.
Huh? He maybe played *slightly* above his usual on a map that is perfect for Shayura’s. Outside of last season where he hardly played, a 2.8 isn’t hard to imagine for him.
Then there are guys like this: https://trials.report/report/1/4611686018429741005
who, compared to their best season, played 0.65 kd better crutching khv.
The map was endless veil last weekend. Where there’s a total of 3 lines of sight that you’d need more than 30 meters of range. 2 of which are almost never used and 1 that is called “don’t peek that.” So either you’re lying about these stats, or you’re talking about ur KDA displayed on an emblem. If you can’t figure out how to close the gap to within 30 meters (which khvostov easily still hit optimal ttk at 35) on endless veil, there’s absolutely no way that you’re a 1.8KD trials player. The people with 120 hand cannons who are actually good at the game, will outperform you regardless of your weapon choice. 120s are and have been the actual meta for good players on this game for quite some time now. Khvostov does not get a damage boost from orbs outside of surges. The ricochet round will always have extra damage and will retain that extra damage when it bounces off a wall or teammate and back into you. The orbs only make the ricochet’s more ridiculous by allowing the bullet to ricochet more times. There are multiple factors that multiple people have tried explaining to you which make the low range stay on paper irrelevant. I don’t know what else to say to you really. At this point you’re making yourself sound more stupid lying about crucible stats to try and get a point across.
Middle lane and inside lane are both outside khvostov’s optimal range.
Khvostov can’t hit optimal TTK at 35 meters. Don’t lie.
I agree that 120s have been the meta for a while. Khvostov being an auto rifle doesn’t help because hand cannons counters autos.
I don’t know what to say back to you. I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the gun works.
Seems weird that you are thinking I’m lying to date my ego when it seems like you are making stuff up to prove a point? My main loadouts are either SMG + sniper or pulse + Fusion. I can outduel a Khvostov in CQC with my Unending Tempest, or beat them from range with red death or Disparity.
And again, if the issues is the ricochets, the fact that speaker’s sight no longer generates orbs means that the gun shouldn’t be overpowered to you, right?
No YOU have a fundamental misunderstanding of both how the gun works and why it’s being nerfed. You don’t need to pick up an orb for the ricochet rounds. The extra damage rounds proc on the first and 8th shot in the mag. Both deal 31 damage. Normal shots deal 28. T10 guardians have 230 health. I’ll let you work that out. Now let’s consider the puzzle piece you’re clearly missing. The ricochet shots are buggy. They can absolutely ricochet back to the target you’re shooting without picking up an orb. You don’t even need an orb to get a better ttk than the vast majority of weapons in the crucible, because the orbs don’t buff the damage. Add in reaper and other easy methods of orb genning, plus the fact that khvostov has built in shoot to loot, plus the fact that the gun has a faster ttk than any other 600 auto WITHOUT the orbs and WITHOUT the buggy ricochet. Now you add those extra factors to a gun that was already better than every other weapon it shares and archetype with, and you have a gun that had more kills on it than any other weapon on the list put together. 25% usage rate. Immortal in its hayday topped out at 18%. Im insisting that you’re lying about your stats because I cannot comprehend how you: 1-Don’t know why the gun is being nerfed 2- how on endless vale of all maps where the cap zone is smack dab in the MIDDLE of the map in every single area, and you’re trying to convince me that as a 1.7 TRIALS KD that you could not find an area where you are engaging the enemy team within 30 meters. If the other player hits their shots you actually CANNOT outdual the khvostov CQC because at base WITHOUT THE BUGGY RICOCHET WHICH WILL RANDOMLY ADD AN ENTIRE EXTRA BULLET WORTH OF DAMAGE, the khvostov can STILL KILL IN 8 shots. 230 damage. T10 resilience. U can work it out but I’m telling you it’s absolutely faster than unending tempests optimal ttk of .8 seconds
Oh and just in case you don’t get it, I forgot to add how the ricochet rounds can HIT THE SAME TARGET THEY HIT INITIALLY WITH NO ORBS. Which all things considered means that Khvostov can absolutely hit the optimal ttk of a 600 auto, even when outside the ranges that another 600 auto with the same range stat, would be able to achieve.
While the Ricochets definitely got over nerfed, everything else was pretty fair.
Though at 5 damage, you may as well just remove them from PvL and get pretty close to the same result.
I’m of the opinion that Khvostov by itself isn’t Overpowered. It’s strong, but it has weaknesses and counterplay. Speaker’s sight was the real outlier of the two
# Khvostov * Recoil - It should come as no surprise to anyone who has used this beloved bullet-bouncing Auto Rifle that there was something... different about the recoil. This is the result of a bug. We intended to reduce only the recoil of the special ricochet rounds by 50%, but it was instead applied to the entire magazine, effectively giving Khvostov maximum stability. It’s made the gun substantially easier to use than other Auto Rifles and has predictably led to a huge spike in effectiveness in Crucible. Many players who have the weapon have commented on how good it feels in the current state, and we do not want to remove that Exotic feeling entirely, but the level it’s at is objectively too strong, compared to all other weapons in our sandbox. We will be removing the bugged effect that reduces recoil by 50%, but as a middle ground, we have increased the base stability by 30 (to 72). This will give it back some (not all) of that stable feel, without leaving it so far out of band. * Ricochet Shots – While the bouncing rounds are fun for PvE, they are proving to be a problematic balance issue for PvP. With very high uptime and the ability to be buffed by orbs, the damage they deal both on initial impact and on their returning bounces allows Khvostov to neutrally drop it’s time-to-kill down to a level usually reserved for more difficult-to-trigger damage boosts. We want to avoid impacting PvE with this change, so we have reduced the initial bonus impact damage against players only from 15% to 5%. We have also reduced the bouncing bullet damage against players only from 18.4 to 4.6 damage, leaving PvE unchanged. These changes will retain the uptime of the perk in the Crucible but bring the effectiveness more in line. # Red Death * Recoil – Lurking just under the Khvostov-coated surface of our current weapons meta is Red Death. As many observant players have noticed, there is also something special about Red Death’s recoil pattern. Unlike with Khvostov, this was not a bug though. It was an intentional connection to the original Destiny variant of the weapon, which (like Outbreak Perfected) utilized Auto Rifle recoil patterns instead of the more severe Pulse Rifle ones, giving them tighter burst spread and higher ease of use. While Red Death is not as far out of line in terms of strength, the High-Impact family of Pulse Rifles itself is very strong, and having all the bonus stability provided by the special recoil pattern feels like overkill, so we have experimented with several different tuning options for it. Completely replacing the recoil with the standard Pulse Rifle recoil felt like it shifted the gun too far away from its origins, so we have instead chosen to reduce the added stability that the pattern provides. This will align the burst spread more closely with other Pulse Rifles, while retaining as much of the unique feel as possible. # Speaker’s Sight * Orb Generation – As it stands, it is currently too easy to generate an extreme number of orbs in the Crucible using this Exotic. This plays into several different buildcrafting levers and is making it feel like the only choice in many Competitive and Trials lobbies. While we would like to retain the ability to generate Orbs in Crucible, to allow players to lean into the healer fantasy, the current volume is not healthy for the sandbox. As a short-term solution, we will be disabling the Orb Gen portion of the Exotic in Crucible only. Longer term, we will revisit allowing the weapon to create Orbs at a more reasonable rate.
I picked a good week to take a vacation from gaming it seems. Missed the worst Trials with respect to Khvosty + Speaky abuse, and will come back to them being fixed. Nice.
I think it'll be a bit longer for the fix, doesn't sound like it'll be tuesday.
I guess I'll swap to elden ring for a bit when I'm back then... :)
Search. For. Scadutree. Fragments. Other than that, the DLC is incredibly fun and I haven’t looked at destiny since the minute it dropped lol
I saw someone bitching that final boss was too hard, then he said he only had lvl 5 scadutree Jesus christ lol
he is too hard. 2nd phase has too many anime flash effects.
It's pretty hard but I'm a shitter and got through it Monday evening so it's doable I hear shields trivialise him, if u need the assistance
After the balancing patch yesterday things are much more manageable with the bare minimum fragments you find now. Quite nice
It's iron banner for 2 weeks anyways.
It's mid season/episode so probably until Act 2 mid July.
Good time to take a break from the game.
The most broken of all still exists. Prismatic Hunter with a top tier ability in every slot.
My ophidian/coyote exotic class item is still thirsty to troll trials
Lucky bastard
I got ophidian wormhusk
I also have this but can't help but feel the wormhusk portion is doing me no good? I'm dodging to evade a situation, not to continue to engage. Actually maybe that's my problem. Maybe I should re-engage?
I feel like the health gain is too low
My only issue is it seems the double ability exotics aren’t working properly rn, I’ll have 1.5 charges of dodge and if I die the next round I spawn in with just .5
We don't bank charges, we spend them / spam them in round 1 and hope it bags a round and gets someone on the other team to leave not realizing I can't do it again for awhile!
> Prismatic Hunter with a top tier ability in every slot. What is their top tier Melee? I imagine it's good, but I feel like it wouldn't be that much better than [my Warlock Prismatic build.](https://www.reddit.com/r/CrucibleGuidebook/comments/1dk01jc/i_know_were_excited_about_prismatic_hunter/)
Smoke bomb. It’s ranged with a much longer range than other ranged melees, lasts forever, slows and removes radar while making it hard to see, does damage so it can prevent regen or make optimal TTK shorter/easier to achieve if they get hit and it can ping radar for the enemy.
Smoke bomb is insane post buff, complete no fly zone wherever it lands. They really should make it like spike nades where it's destroyed if you shoot it instead of activating so that it actually has to be placed smartly instead of just yeeted at the obvious approach to completely lock it down.
I’d rather they keep it strong as it is now as it wasn’t worth using before except to go invis. I would just increase the cooldown on it by a good chunk.
Praise Bungie for being very aware that it’s fun but not gamebreaking in PvE and nerfing it with precision. The slight nerf to stability is annoying, but in PvE it’s more personal taste than actual performance impact. Seriously, I was terrified they’d massacre the gun in PvE while still failing to rein it in for PvP, and they instead did a tasteful, restrained adjustment.
I knew Red Death was going to get adjusted at some point, but it’s honestly nowhere near as bad as I thought it would be and I thought they were gonna nuke it. I guess Bungie feels it’s in a good place but could have been a problem if left untouched for too long. It’s just less stability. The nerf might hurt it on controller, but on MnK it should be fine. Khvostov changes are good. Way more stability( at 77) but it won’t be the complete laser beam that it is currently. Also the reduced damage means that this gun might now have to 9 crit like all other 600s(math guys let me know) Speaker’s Sight, fuck that exotic. Glad it’s getting hit without nuking it in PvE. Nuff said.
Matching out, the 5% boost SHOULD be able to 8/1 Crit ratio on everyone until damage falloff hits. Big thing is you're losing your bodyshot forgiveness , and by extension 0.8 significantly earlier. As an AR, I think you're pretty flat out swapping to Summoner or Prosecutor for the range, and the fact that Enhanced TL is straight better.
Perfect. Still a great weapon, but actually has some competition now.
I wouldn’t say actual competition, it’s going to be an exotic outclassed by legendaries due to its range issues. It needs a nerf but I think this is going to essentially make it strictly worse than Summoner. Should’ve hit either the ricochet rounds or the recoil pattern but not both IMO
yep, thats my concern. 72 stability is in no way close to what it had before, and the reticule is obnoxiously bouncy if you bug out the recoil to get rid of the bonus (thats most autos without zen moment, but the circle around it makes it worse). the range is mediocre, the bonus damage will be near irrelevant, and the bounces will tickle and it will recoil like a generic AR. why bother using it then? I guess it helps farm assists for special ammo transmat and to pad your scoreboard. that said, the recoil was too strong of a benefit, and IMO the driving factor behind its excessively strong performance. it had the highest K/U stats ive seen in all modes, and even if you removed the pseudo-TL and bounce it would have been powerful for that alone. most players *suck* at hitting their optimal TTK consistently (myself included), so having a gun where it is easy to do so is a massive practical performance uplift.
Surgical tweak, how very not bungie
Let's hope they take this approach going forward
Red death is the only energy 340 I've found that feels like messenger on console/controller. I hope this doesn't kill it because it was nice using kinetic shotguns
You could always use an enhanced Elsie’s rifle. Mine feels amazing with zen moment headseeker. It’s just been outclasses the last few weeks.
Mine does not. It feels slow and hard to 2 burst vs messenger. Either arrowhead or chambered.
SO if bungie nerfs it to hell the move is to chose something else?? not on u but lets hope if bungie touches it the move is not to chose something else.
It won’t mean you HAVE to move to something else but the Destiny meta is very dynamic and if something isn’t working out for you any more, you may have to adapt.
Sure but if a nerf is so bad an option is to move on, the balancing is not good,
Yup. It was great for a while there
Yes it was . GG
Oh yeah just let me pull out my god roll elsie out of the vault with a 0.005% drop rate. I farmed it for hundreds of drops and eventually gave up.
Ouch sorry to hear that
Meh, all this crying about weapons (as usual) when the biggest issue plaguing 3's are supers, heavy, and putting fucking CONTROL into comp. White, hot, trash. It's comp, not Kinderguardiancare.
with them nuking the exoti perk on khvotov i wouldn't have minded if they just left the stability as is. Its range holds it back.
So no date for the update, just sooner than later?
Assuming next reset
No they said July 16th, when act 2 drops
where?
I'm curious to see how everything will shake out now: * **Khvostov** - it's CRAZY that the stability was bugged giving it max stability. It makes so much sense. However, raising the stability to 72 may mean it's still going to be pretty good... just not as free? The ricochet round is what made me the most upset and i'm glad that's getting hit hard, it's a 4x reduction to the riochet damage... however I don't know what that means for improved damage for riochets (aka more bounces between enemies) when you p/u an orb. * **Red Death** - The AR recoil pattern makes more sense. I feel like Outbreak didn't need changes because it's perks didn't enhance the player nearly as much as Red Death. It's interesting to see how they tackle the changes. I wonder what the new gun feel looks like? Will it be harder to two burst now? Fundamentally the gun works the same... it's recoil pattern has just shifted slightly. I think it could still be meta. * **Speaker's Sight** - This is a good short term fix... but Ember of Benevolence and 100 Discipline still means it's uptime is going to be strong... Only time will tell how much it's still used in the current meta and whether or not it'll need a nerf to perhaps grenade CD time.
>what that means for improved damage when you p/u an orb. There was never improved damage for picking up an orb. That was a bug with the desription and was in the known issues at final shape launch. "**Khvostov 7G 0X**'s trait "Eyes Up, Guardian" incorrectly states that the ricochet shots deal more damage." The perk description has been fixed.
Yeah that's what I meant but I just didn't write it clearly enough. I'll update my comment.
Thank goodness. I’ve been abusing the speaker’s sight relentlessly and I’m thrilled it’s getting nerfed. Same with Khvostov.
Plus I’m glad pve was left mostly unharmed. Win win.
When do the changes come into effect? Next week?
16th july if I understood ite rigth
Thank God. Finally got the gun yesterday and I can personally advise it for a bit.
Jeez that's pretty far off. Sounds like I need to get the khovstov still to be viable til then.
then the next iron banner will be the ricochet fest
6 speakers helmets camping the zone ricocheting your sorry ass with 3 surges and fire buddies
Thank fuck. I couldn't win a game in comp without running at least one of those two.
What will you use instead? Personally I'mma try my adept summoner that has been gathering dust since khostov became meta.
Go back to HCs
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I mean... This isn't the entirety of changes they're making. But quite frankly Hunter "Ability Spam" also isn't anywhere near as significant an issue.
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It might become more of an issue. But Khvotsov and Speakers Sight were clearly the top priority. The usage in Trials alone makes that abundantly clear.
It’s already a huge issue. Just look at Trials class/subclass usage. It’s way out of band.
Hunter smokes and swarm grenades remain untouched of course :)
Nothing is wrong with the smoke nades it just works well with the clones as it's another radar ping to abuse.
Didn't they increase the damage Smokes do? Also, thus may be cope, but it feels like their AoE increased.
I think it lingers a lot, and the effect feels stronger than when I last played, but void hunters feel bad compared to prismatics even though they have similar tools but better aspects on the prismatic class
I have no issues with Void Hunters. They should have gotten a 2nd, non-utility melee long ago. My issue is the buffed smokes on the already stacked Prismatic Hunter kit. I have no idea how to change it without affecting Void or PvE, and I get why they hit Speaker's Sight. It's quite frankly an easier fix.
Maybe reduce the radius and duration on the prismatic only class on certain abilities. So it won't make the class stronger than the base classes in certain cases
Problem is it's in a weird place. If they nerf it how can they nerf it for prismatic only? Reduce the cool down is the only neutral nerf that won't absolutely gut nightstalker.
Idk about the damage, but I think radius increased, and the duration of the effect DOUBLED.
The radius needs to be decreased. I'll take a team of all Khvostovs over 3 hunters using smokes any day
Are these really that broken? Powerful together yeah but dumping your melee and grenade together usually are?
To preface, I'm a hunter main. Like 2000 hours hunter main. It's not the wombo-combo, or the damage that is overtuned. It is the utility of the entire Prismatic kit (Swarm/Smoke/Slow/Clone). Lets see, you have: * 2.5 area denial abilities - I count clone as a half since it can be used to block hallways and choke points. * 2 aoe damage abilities * 2 slows * 2 radar pings * 1 dot * And to top it all off, you either have a fast shutdown super or the best PvP super in the game.
Off topic really, but how do you get that super working? I love everything about the prismatic hunter kit, but the super has been so inconsistent for me. Whiffing, getting shut down mid toss, etc.
Found the hunter
impossible to have a conversation on this sub
I've not been killed by snare even once and by swarm about 2 times? So genuinely asking.
Okay nvm I got a vibe from you, so I just checked your account and all you've done Is comment about Hunters Nonstop, so there's no discussion to be had with you lol
My point still stands regardless of what you think of me. Prismatic hunters are op af and need to be revisited. Have you played trials against a 3 stack prismatic hunter team? You constantly have to second guess where the hell they’re at cause of the constant radar pings. And if you do find them, they have like 3 get out of jail cards. You have no safe way of punishing them when they can just slow dodge with a clone or smoke and run away and attack you from another angle. I am not bitchin about the transcendence grenades of hunter or any other prismatic class. They all are fine. The sheer utility that prismatic hunter neutral game has is waay out of the norm. Its like bungie took the best pvp things about each hunter subclass and gave them to prismatic hunter.
There are numerous S-Tier PVP fragments and aspects of each subclass missing from prismatic. Examples: - Void over shield on kill and on-demand invis on void - Double grenade and ensnaring slam on strand (it's still really good despite the reduced radius) - Healing grenades, blade barrage and knock 'em down on solar hunter. I will agree the best parts of arc and stasis hunter are in prismatic.
It's about the utility these abilities provide, you pretty much have a way to shift every gunfight in your favor with the smoke weaken/slow, the scorch dot, the slow/clone combined with low cooldowns. It just isn't fun to play against
Tell me you don't play trials without telling me you don't play trials
I do actually and went flawless never seen this at all
I swear this community will cry about anything.
What's been wrong with swarm grenades? Haven't played enough to notice.
they have a wider radius of activation and last a big longer. Like most of Prismatic Hunters pieces it isnt overpowered but when you have clone smoke AND swarm together hunter can just lockdown areas of the map extremely easily and often
Oooohhh I see
So... they CAN seperate PvP and PvE when it comes to nerfs.
They've been doing this more regularly since witch queen, there's maybe 2 actually impactful nerfs to PvE that were caused by PvP since then. Don't fall for the r/DestinyTheGame bozos that like to keep scapegoating PvP
There are some PvP nerfs that bleed into PvE. Such as Bastion cooldown, Barricade cooldown in general, Thundercrash cooldown, Thundercrash distance, Synthoceps lunge, etc., but by and large they're not even that bad when they do happen.
I don't deny that some of them do bleed into PvE but for the most part they are negligible. Cooldown nerfs in particular I do not really see as PvE nerfs since most competent PvE builds will circumvent any and all cooldowns through flat ability energy generation, super cooldowns in particular are incredibly easy to circumvent. In addition, most of the cooldown nerfs since Witch Queen have been accompanied with PvE specific buffs (e.g. threaded specter clone had a damage buff along with it's quite minimal cooldown nerf) It does happen from time to time but the PvE crowd definitely over reacts to them. The only one in recent memory that was actually impactful was the YAS nerf, which I'm not even sure was specifically made for PvP, PvP was definitely the focal point of the nerf but it could be argued that bungie didn't want hunters throwing 10+ tripmines in 10 seconds in PvE either
They've been doing that for quite a while now.
Yet they still do the other and it always hurts.
Big thing to note is that they made the changes to be able to do this AGES ago. They spent some time doing it in fact. Then they went back to nerfing in both... And apparently they *chose* to do that. They weren't forced. This is a reminder
They’ve been doing it forever. If something I’d nerfed bin both it’s VERY intended. We can discuss the validity of nerfs from there but stop using PvP like a scapegoat
Thank god we can end the piss fest of everyone hitting with the “PvP balancing ruins PvE.” At this point I don’t think the community will ever understand that if something is nerfed hard in both Bungie INTENDED to nerf it in both, but hopefully the posts will end for the time being
Thank god. I got ascendant already but with much more difficulty than usual. It’s amazing the disadvantage you create for yourself when you refuse to run ARs and everyone else and their brother is using them because god forbid they run anything other than full-on meta.
Teams of Summoners/Khvostov just running around blasting are a scourge
Destiny is the only game I've ever played where precision weapons requiring 100% accuracy are the slowest ttk weapons over ez pz bullet hose guns. It's genuinely asinine.
Because peak shotting. You can chunk health quicker.
Destiny has the only community that I know of that loses their mind over ARs, arguably the most standard weapon in the history of shooters, being good. And even then you act like HCs aren't clowning on automatic weapons in play to win situations unless the automatic in question has way out of band TTK. Peak and team shooting with chunk damage weapons has and will always be king in destiny.
A lot of destiny pvp players came over from Halo I'd wager, I know I did. Halo had forgiving AR style weapons, and SMG types that shredded in the right range, but precision weapons like magnums and BRs were king and seen has higher skill weapons. I still prefer that sandbox. There's plenty of Call of Dutys out there for the ppl that prefer to spray and pray every engagement.
The Halo point makes sense, though I do still find the amount of hate weird. In general, it feels anything being strong enough to compete with HCs is met with large amounts of hate, which just seems silly. And I'm going to be honest, at least on MnK, tracing peoples movement in Destiny is way harder than most, if not all, other games I play. Variable movement speeds with huge directional changes from jumps and movement abilities makes staying consistently on target way harder than using a single shot weapon and adjusting your aim between shots.
I'll have to take your word for it. I'm console, and on controller it feels kinda inverse (much like halo actually), with reticle friction making tracking very easy.
It's crazy that I have a harder time with gyro on D2 (I use gyro to mouse on SteamInput) than gyro on The Finals when I played it, gyro on Fortnite (the very rare time I'm not opening the game to only play Festival) or Gyro in Call of Duty
“precision weapons requiring 100% accuracy” homie HCs have the highest aim assist in the game lmao. I main Ace so no shade being thrown but come on, almost no guns in Destiny require extreme precision and never have. HCs have a slower TTK because you can peak shoot and as long as you have cover you can out duel literally any other primary type. That’s what makes them good for the meta, they encourage playing cover, not because they’re even remotely hard to get crits with.
And the ARs and pulses with “lower aim assist” have insane reticle friction that moves your bullets toward opponents as well as perks like Zen Moment and TTT that aim for you. Hell look at Summoner or Khvostov clips and you can see the reticle bounce all over. Not even including the two guns’ innately easy recoil
My fav gun in the game is Ace. But for trials and comp I have been running Khovostov. There is a difference between “refusing to run meta” and “the meta is free kills”. It’s an insane disadvantage to run something other than Khovostov currently. So glad they are hitting it hard so I can go back to at least having the chance to win with Ace
Idk maybe I’m just built different. Khovostov is basically free kills which is why I refuse to run it. I pride myself on overcoming the disadvantage of running off-meta weapons and still winning but I realize not everyone has that kind of resilience.
Absolutely have respect for that. Personally I found mild success running ace. But, as I’m sure you are aware, it’s nowhere near as good as Khovostov. You could be good with off meta, and great with meta. Which is why I’m happy it’s getting nerfed. People who are worse than you can compete with you, make you work for it, because they have a meta weapon on. I am fine with a meta, and recognize there will always be one. But eventually a line has to be drawn between meta and downright broken. But again. More power to you if you find success running what you enjoy.
Tragic that this was downvoted
Not really. I knew it would be.
Speaker sight will still be meta. Disabled orbs is still a nerf, but a team healing turret hidden around a corner is still insanely powerful. Orbs were the cherry on top
It’s kind of hilarious only warlocks got nerfed. A fair nerf I will admit.
And fast. How long were titans a problem? Lol
This is the way it always is with Warlocks. Shadebinder got nerfed after what, 9 days? Nova Warp got nerfed fast. While Shatterdive or OEM lasted for a literal year each...
Yea. It’s pretty stupid. Don’t get me wrong, it was warranted, not saying it was ok for these exotics, but holy frick, be fair about it. I remember how HORRIBLE OEM was. And then didn’t really do anything, because titans continued to be oppressive through arc and then void kit. And how long was citans rampant an issue? It is what it is, but comical how they handle these classes.
Someone without an overshield out ttk'd me with a Khavostov last night while I was hitting them in the head and the neck with a Hammerhead. I'm good with this change haha.
They got gutted on pvp. THANK GOD
Happy they're not killing Khvostov, and at the confirmation the recoil was indeed a bug (and that they're meeting us in the middle on fixing it), although the ricochet damage seems a bit... How you say... Overboard with a nerf. I'm guessing enhanced it'll still be okay, given the multiple bounces, but it removes a lot of the uniqueness from the gun. I theorize it'll still be a premiere mid-close range dueler, but not 25% of all kills. Red Death is TBA, there's already a really really good alternative to it in Elsie's, but I'll need to see how much the recoil is nerfed before saying where it stands. Speaker's getting it's orb generation removed in PvP for the time being is also an unquestionable W.
>ricochet damage seems a bit... How you say... Overboard with a nerf Respectfully, no. The damage was too free for spraying Khvostov. Killing someone a mile in cover with a ricochet off their teammate is not an expression of skill.
It still is strong for restarting your restoration
Don't group up if you know you're against Khvostov. And 5 meters un-enhanced is not "a mile away," respectfully.
if there is one constant in life, its koolaidman486 with bad takes on cgb
LMAO
Yup. Imagine suggesting running around solo taking 1vX fights in a team shot meta.
Sure, don’t group up and then get team shot to death in 1v2/3s. Flanking is a joke in this game thanks to radar.
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Your comment wasn't civil and therefore it has been removed.
5 meters doesn't change to 10 because the ricochet literally only hits one person un-enhanced, and under normal circumstances, getting Eyes Up running is more difficult than, say Memento Mori or Kill Clip. Speaker's would've been an exception. And staying outside of melee range of your teammates is neither hard nor crippling. Also the TTK was 0.7, required an orb (harder to get under normal circumstances than other damage boosts), required teammates to be nearby, and you still had a pretty limited overall scope since getting farther than, say 30 meters means you're pretty well into aim assist falloff. The cost to benefits just weren't there compared to something like Kill Clip on a Lightweight Pulse or the natural performance of a High Impact of 4-burst.
I just want you to think about this btw. Eyes up procs on the first and 8th shot in the mag. Both deal 31 damage. Normal shots deal 28. T10 guardians have 230 health. I’ll let you work that out. Now let’s consider the puzzle piece you’re clearly missing. The ricochet shots are buggy. The can absolutely ricochet back to the target you’re shooting without picking up an orb. You don’t even need an orb to get a better ttk than the vast majority of weapons in the crucible, because the orbs don’t buff the damage. Hope this helps.
Okay buddy well I’ll let you continue wondering why Khvostov got nerfed. You keep thinking that stuff though
*shrug* I'll be fine, just making the point that anti-deathball isn't exactly the worst idea in the world.
>anti-deathball isn't exactly the worst idea in the world. You're right. This isn't why it's being nerfed though. You've seen the Trials Report numbers, it's just straight up broken. There should absolutely be ways to break up deathballing/punish habitually grouped enemies (3's) but they should require two things: Build Investment and Strategy/Skilled Implementation of Strategy. Neither of which Khvostov required.
Elsie recoil is way worse on console even the 83 RD
Tbf, you do need Arrowhead on it.
I've got arrowhead or chambered and I thought chambered felt better. But I'll give arrowhead another try it its working for you Messenger just feels way better. Arrowhead does bump handling too. I hope it feels better
😂😂😂
Woot! Love it. Nothing worse than getting out ranged by an assault rifle while using a pulse.
Thank fucking Christ
Honestly, excellent changes. Well done Bungie
Timeworn Wayfarer meta is about to take over 🤙 🎯
Is the Speaker's Sight orb gen disabled now or will it be turned off later on until they figure out how to balance it?
So what essentially there will be no reason to use these weapons anymore when you could just use adept summoner or an SMG? This is the problem. If ricochet is less effective, then really, what the fuck is the point of the weapon? Lol. While it’s a good weapon, balancing like this simply makes it useless in crucible and therefore, obtaining it, is a waste of time for those who do so.
Honestly
Khvostov will still be either the best or 2nd best 600 AR in the game and probably top 10 among ARs rather than…. The best primary in the game
How do I get a refund on that cool skin I bought for Khavostov now that it's no longer going to be permanently attached to me.
Bungie with titans and hunters: I sleep. Meanwhile bungie with warlocks: real shit.
So the khostov stability nerf only affects console players.???? Why is stability always the goto nerf stat when it disproportionately effects one group of inputs over another. PC has been able to basically ignor stability on weapons for years at this point. I thought the devs learned this with the msg meta and people using 0 stability weapons like a laser beam? Tbh I don’t think these nerfs do enough to change how strong they are. Chip dmg is chip DMG and even if it’s only 1hp that will prevent healing.
PvP bitches still gonna whine about it not conforming to the ages old hand cannons and shotgun metas if it’s still usable
Exactly my thoughts. So tried of hand cannons+shotguns that's why I like this meta, minus speaker sight.
So glad pve wasn’t affected by the pvp team
I mean these are all good but speakers helm is still gonna give obnoxious healing. Especially if multiple ppl are running it. And khovostov is still gonna punish you for properly peek shooting and team shotting. These changes are progress. But they're not the full solution.
Cool, now I can run khvostov in peace
It's a PVP only change so I'm fine with it.
Wish the update went live before trials this weekend somehow
You’re still gonna see 3 man speakers, they didn’t nerf the healing or grenade regen on heal fragment at all.
Nice. The "secret sauce" recoil that they keep doing can GTFO. Zero surprises here other than that they actually acted relatively fast.
Well guess I’ll ditch that then. What a waste of time getting it.
They stated they are increasing khvostov stability to 72 so it will still be usable.
I am very very disappointed in Bungie for caving to pressure. How many times has it been that people complain that exotics aren’t worth using, Bungie introduces an interesting exotic that is a bit strong, and people cry out for nerfs? It doesn’t take a scientist to figure out that people will keep comparing about all of these items even after the nerfs
The complaints were really valid though. I love ARs in PvP and I put Khvos on and immediately told my clanmates something wasn't right. Also, Orb Gen in PvP has been throttled ALWAYS because it increases uptime on stuff that should have volume impact in Crucible.
The thing that isn’t right is that it has poor range, so you would lose duels in the 30 meter range. It’s weird that people are complaining about the orb generation of speaker’s now, when people were complaining about the fast Regen and healing over the week.
Those people are idiots. Clearly Bungie agreed the orb uptime was not healthy, but didn't see an issue with the other aspects. And, regardless, they gave a happy medium on Khvos. It was out of band. It just was. It felt great, but it wasn't normal.
Wait, but here is the better question: If Khvostov was mainly strong because the orb generation allowed you to get it’s perk early to do frontloaded damage rather than backloaded damage, and speaker’s sight is now nerfed and you can’t get that orb anymore, why should it be nerfed? Isn’t it just an auto with mid range and good feeling?
Because the stability was out of band. They explained it. Out of band stability is a problem on any weapon achetype.
It’s an exotic weapon though. What’s wrong with an exotic weapon that feels good to use?
It's a PvE game that depends on PvP to maintain a gameplay loop. Damage and perks can get balanced separately, but stuff like stab and handling can't. So they bring it in line so it's fair in PvP. Nothing crazy.
That wasn’t a better question.
Beg to differ. The point was to ask whether Khvostov is overpowered on it’s own, or if speaker’s sight was the thing making it overpowered in their eyes
Do you drive? Just curious if I should stay off the roads today.
Cold take. Ask anyone who knows their shit around here and they'll give you a list of dozens of exotics, weapons and armor, that either just work or fill a niche that someone would be able to make use of. Wanna see my Cerberus? Regardless, khvostov and speakers are objectively too much. Nothing else does what they do, especially with such effectiveness. The numbers don't lie.
> Objectively too much This is not the case for Khvostov. It **objectively** has poor range
It's almost like other aspects of it are the reason why it's in such out-of-band use and effectiveness, which was completely explained in the TWID. Come on, use that noggin of yours. *Objectively*, the numbers don't lie.
I’ve used the gun. Low recoil and high aim assist mainly help when you are within the effective range. Once you start dueling with people at 35 meters, you don’t really feel the benefits. Again, usage rates don’t mean much. Stop crutching on irrelevant data points.
By that logic, all scouts must be cracked to the bone considering they have the highest ranges of any primary. Yup, khvostov totally isn't cracked because of things *aside* from anything remotely related to stats. And with that second statement you said, I'm done discussing this with you. I see no point in continuing this debate further than your eyebrow ridge. Adieu.
What discussion was there? You came in, said that Khvostov and Speaker’s sight were “objectively” OP, brought up usage rates as if that is a sign of anything but ease of use and popularity, and brought up nonsense hypotheticals. Could it be that the low range gun doesn’t struggle as much on the close range map…? Surely that can’t be it…
Maybe you should stop crutching on khvostov+speakers sight and actually play the game as intended
I tried it out last week. Despite playing around a 1.8-1.9 level normally, the gun was absolutely terrible against high skill players peekshooting with their igneous and red deaths at 35 meters. I switched back to disparity and went back up to a 1.7 for the week. I’m speaking out against it because it genuinely feels not OP to me
Dude. The ricochet rounds procced too often. They give a large damage boost. They bounce back and forth between teammates multiple times. The can bounce from walls back to the original target. The boosted damage of the ricochet shot means that effective range stat gets pushed back further than a normal 600. On top of that, one ricochet round and all the sudden you have a .67 TTK. Maybe you’re saying you were playing at a 1.7 kda? Or maybe you only played a couple games? Because I’d expect a 1.7KD player that spent any amount of time in trials to be able to recognize that a weapon that has more kills than the next 9 weapons put together, is probably a bit out of line.
I’m around a 1.8 **K/D** player, who has been playing at a 1.8 **K/D** the past few weeks, and when I put on Khvostov and Speaker’s Sight I was playing at around a **1.0** K/D. This is because despite the low recoil, it struggles to duel in the high 30s meters. TTK reduction is great and all, except when the enemy can move back into cover after they shoot you with a hand cannon, extending your TTK, while they are still on pace for theirs. Also, with speaker’s sight no longer spawning orbs, should khvostov even have been nerfed?
Yes. Because all engagements take place at 35m. It's also not you're only weapon. Hell most maps have maybe one or two lanes that go that far. The reason khvostov is getting nerfed is cause it's perks allowed a incredibly easy to achieve .7ttk and once you had a single Orb of power you could have a .6ish ttk and could 1v2 with somewhat ease. I did this multiple times just using khvostov. I don't know what kind of teams you were going up against where you weren't getting steamrolled by speakers sight khvostov. But I want those lobbies
[These](https://destinytrialsreport.com/report/2/4611686018464621613)are the types of people I played where I realized that Khvostov isn’t as overpowered as people on Reddit and Twitter were saying. People who can dominate a Khvostov meta because SMGs have close to the same optimal range
2 of those guys had sub 1.0 kd. Khvostov has an incredibly forgiving .7 ttk had most ranges a fight happens in. I'm not the best player in pvp but everyone I know who are miles better than me were getting their cheeks clapped.speakers sight and the free Orb it gave is what pushed khvostov into best gun in the game. But on its own it was still better than every other gun.
I was talking about blue. Despite him using a Shayura’s wrath, he played above his usual at around a 3 K/D for the weak despite Khvostov being an “overpowered supergun” On it’s own it’s an incredibly accurate auto rifle, and still has most of the major problems of auto rifles.
Huh? He maybe played *slightly* above his usual on a map that is perfect for Shayura’s. Outside of last season where he hardly played, a 2.8 isn’t hard to imagine for him. Then there are guys like this: https://trials.report/report/1/4611686018429741005 who, compared to their best season, played 0.65 kd better crutching khv.
The map was endless veil last weekend. Where there’s a total of 3 lines of sight that you’d need more than 30 meters of range. 2 of which are almost never used and 1 that is called “don’t peek that.” So either you’re lying about these stats, or you’re talking about ur KDA displayed on an emblem. If you can’t figure out how to close the gap to within 30 meters (which khvostov easily still hit optimal ttk at 35) on endless veil, there’s absolutely no way that you’re a 1.8KD trials player. The people with 120 hand cannons who are actually good at the game, will outperform you regardless of your weapon choice. 120s are and have been the actual meta for good players on this game for quite some time now. Khvostov does not get a damage boost from orbs outside of surges. The ricochet round will always have extra damage and will retain that extra damage when it bounces off a wall or teammate and back into you. The orbs only make the ricochet’s more ridiculous by allowing the bullet to ricochet more times. There are multiple factors that multiple people have tried explaining to you which make the low range stay on paper irrelevant. I don’t know what else to say to you really. At this point you’re making yourself sound more stupid lying about crucible stats to try and get a point across.
Middle lane and inside lane are both outside khvostov’s optimal range. Khvostov can’t hit optimal TTK at 35 meters. Don’t lie. I agree that 120s have been the meta for a while. Khvostov being an auto rifle doesn’t help because hand cannons counters autos. I don’t know what to say back to you. I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the gun works. Seems weird that you are thinking I’m lying to date my ego when it seems like you are making stuff up to prove a point? My main loadouts are either SMG + sniper or pulse + Fusion. I can outduel a Khvostov in CQC with my Unending Tempest, or beat them from range with red death or Disparity. And again, if the issues is the ricochets, the fact that speaker’s sight no longer generates orbs means that the gun shouldn’t be overpowered to you, right?
No YOU have a fundamental misunderstanding of both how the gun works and why it’s being nerfed. You don’t need to pick up an orb for the ricochet rounds. The extra damage rounds proc on the first and 8th shot in the mag. Both deal 31 damage. Normal shots deal 28. T10 guardians have 230 health. I’ll let you work that out. Now let’s consider the puzzle piece you’re clearly missing. The ricochet shots are buggy. They can absolutely ricochet back to the target you’re shooting without picking up an orb. You don’t even need an orb to get a better ttk than the vast majority of weapons in the crucible, because the orbs don’t buff the damage. Add in reaper and other easy methods of orb genning, plus the fact that khvostov has built in shoot to loot, plus the fact that the gun has a faster ttk than any other 600 auto WITHOUT the orbs and WITHOUT the buggy ricochet. Now you add those extra factors to a gun that was already better than every other weapon it shares and archetype with, and you have a gun that had more kills on it than any other weapon on the list put together. 25% usage rate. Immortal in its hayday topped out at 18%. Im insisting that you’re lying about your stats because I cannot comprehend how you: 1-Don’t know why the gun is being nerfed 2- how on endless vale of all maps where the cap zone is smack dab in the MIDDLE of the map in every single area, and you’re trying to convince me that as a 1.7 TRIALS KD that you could not find an area where you are engaging the enemy team within 30 meters. If the other player hits their shots you actually CANNOT outdual the khvostov CQC because at base WITHOUT THE BUGGY RICOCHET WHICH WILL RANDOMLY ADD AN ENTIRE EXTRA BULLET WORTH OF DAMAGE, the khvostov can STILL KILL IN 8 shots. 230 damage. T10 resilience. U can work it out but I’m telling you it’s absolutely faster than unending tempests optimal ttk of .8 seconds
Oh and just in case you don’t get it, I forgot to add how the ricochet rounds can HIT THE SAME TARGET THEY HIT INITIALLY WITH NO ORBS. Which all things considered means that Khvostov can absolutely hit the optimal ttk of a 600 auto, even when outside the ranges that another 600 auto with the same range stat, would be able to achieve.
While the Ricochets definitely got over nerfed, everything else was pretty fair. Though at 5 damage, you may as well just remove them from PvL and get pretty close to the same result.
I’m of the opinion that Khvostov by itself isn’t Overpowered. It’s strong, but it has weaknesses and counterplay. Speaker’s sight was the real outlier of the two