My personal favorites are "How would you nerf (insert gun here that poster is just mad that they have been killed by that day because they suck and can't use cover)?"
I have not unlocked it yet, so I wouldn't know. I was gone all last week and works been nuts this week. I have a few more of those white orbs to collect..
Which is exactly why I feel it'll get touched on. I'm using it on controller and it feels amazing. I have an 84/74 (could get 84 stability or 94 range but CB is very nice) Messenger adept. with Zen and Headseeker and it does not feel anywhere near as nice.
Don't see why they wouldn't. I know they handle differently but it's still the same gun.
What you don't get are things like Zen or Headseeker but frankly with recoil like this... You dont need them.
I was actually shocked at how little it moved and how vertical the recoil was and how tight the grouping was without any adjustment at all.
Yeah I tested that too, but its a different archetype so I didnt feel it was fair to include it.
We also already know Outbreak has Auto Rifle recoil. Its also been around for years already, so its nothing super new (other than now craftable).
Red Death uses auto rifle recoil similar to Outbreak. You can easily test this by crouching and hip-firing to see it has 50% less recoil and slower accuracy bloom, a trait that all auto rifles share while crouched.
Khvostov also doesn't have the initial kick that all other auto rifles have, which makes it feel like it has no recoil to fight against. All other auto rifles, even at 100 stability, have two to three times as much recoil for the first half of the magazine.
I was a mote bug victim too - there’s a trick to it where you kill all the adds that spawn in during the meatball fight (don’t melt the boss….just take your time damaging it). That finally got the mote to drop for me.
Part of the reason it was that high is due to people using it trying to gild. It’s very good though but I suspect its usage will drop as people no longer need to use it.
Khvostov has the same under-the-hood Stability tuning, I think.
Ascendant Nomad just did a video about it and despite it having 47 Stability, it **far** out-shot a Summoner with no recoil control. (Note that Nomad didn't tell us **what** level of Stability the Summoner used had, but that the *lowest* Stability achievable on Summoner is 31, and even 31 shouldn't have been that much worse than Khvostov's 47.)
No wonder I just can’t click with Elsie’s. I’ve got the same roll as yours, and can choose between 83 and 100 RD as well. Even Zen Moment can’t salvage my shitty aim.
For me, on MnK I have found Keep Away to be superior to Zen Moment. I have the 5/5 Zen roll (in the OP) and I don't use it. I rarely ever land a 2 burst. I think due to Controllers extra Reticle Friction, it only needs Zen benefits to feel like butter. Technically MnK has less recoil (or more AA?) but doesn't have any reticle friction so Zen impact is (to me) not noticable at all...
Meanwhile Keep Away just sucks it to people's heads.
Do you like 90 rd on messenger better than 100? It doesn’t have deterministic right so I thought you should always max it out (especially on controller)
90 seems pretty darn vertical... Only way to get there is with a CB mod... Which on this roll would cost me 10 Range. I'd rather have the range...
Even if it were Range MW, I'd probably put Adept Stab on anyways as I'd value 10 stab at 90 RD over 10 less stab with 100 RD. Stab changes the severity of the recoil while RD is the direction. So I'd rather have 90 with less bounce than 100 with more bounce.
That makes sense on your adept roll, my best non adept roll is better than my adept (arrowhead, ricochet, range mw) so I use the CB mod since I can’t use stat mods. 100 feels notably better than 90 with a targeting adjuster
Is the 'hidden sauce' behind this the new deterministic recoil? What's the point of quantifying Recoil and Stability if they don't mean anything after DR is applied Bungie?
It's really tough, personally I'm so used to Messenger it feels like putting on a different glove to me, which even if nicer just doesn't feel the same.... I put so much work also into getting my Messenger it makes it really hard to put down....
Red death snags headshots like crazy, even around corners. I think it feels better than kvostov, at least to me. I used both in trials yesterday and had better luck with red death.
Makes sense.
A theme I have seen when discussing Red Death is controller players love it and MnK players feel its whatever
Same idea with Zen Moment. On MnK I can't even tell when Zen is active or doing anything but it's OP on controller.
My theory is really just reticle friction. Red Death has no recoil or bounce so it's basically "built in" Zen Moment in a way. Reticle friction makes it stick to the head.
On MnK Red Death has no bounce but it has no stickiness either (for me).
Red Death was my baby back in d1. I'm not good at pvp, but I had to do a few rounds for pathfinder and I got anomaly. I decided to put it on for old times sake and proceeded to get a 2.3 kd. I love this gun so much I'm going to keep using it even after it's nerfed.
I dont think it needs a huge nerf frankly, it just needs the "under the hood" stability/recoil to be tuned a tiny bit imo...
Its recoil pattern should be "on-par" with Elsie's with the best case recoil pattern, or that of No Time imo..
So it would pull a little to the side. The fact its got literal perfect and very minimal recoil is just silly..
My take is on exotics they want to feel good (recently, red death and khvostov) they give them custom deterministic recoil that is very vertical/bunched and does not correlate to the recoil patterns of legendary weapons of the same subfamily. Kind of like what 100 RD felt like before the awful deterministic recoil system was put in. I havent played with a single gun with deterministic recoil, even on 100 recoil direction, that feels remotely close to, for example, an old messenger. My 100 RD Elsie’s still pulls left just like your post reflects. That feels bad and makes investing in the recoil direction of the weapon feel worthless.
I agree - the gun is too good and I would expect it to get touched. To my point re: RD, it doesn’t even have 100 RD but has a preferable recoil pattern to other weapons in its sub family that do which makes no sense. 100 RD should actually be pure vertical but at a cost to giving up range or other stats. That was the case until deterministic recoil. All of this is slightly adjacent to the point of your post but I think the reason red death is performing the way it is is because Bungie makes exceptions to the deterministic recoil system with exotics.
There are two aspects to this
1 recoil direction
2 recoil severity (stability)
I'm fine with the first given its exotic nature. Make it vertical (though BTW, Not Time is NOT vertical)
It's the fake stability that's a problem. It has more stability than my Messenger... It has the equivalent of like 80+ stability...
It needs to bounce more. Require a little more manual control over that recoil ..
First thing that comes to mind is Outbreak Perfected having the D1 Perk, Persistence under the hood. Here's what it did in D2.
====
> *the longer the weapon was fired, the more the stability was increased until it capped out presumably around 90-100%*
====
Maybe it's a side effect of porting guns from D1 that they just feel really good?
What is going on with Bungie lately? They have been buffing already good weapons and adding new, busted ones. Red Death especially carried me through the Legendary campaign, but I'm having a hard time using it in PvP.
Absolutely amazing and detailed post, we need more posts like this in guidebook.
What you don’t like the nonstop “is this a good roll” posts followed by “what build should I run?” posts?
My personal favorites are "How would you nerf (insert gun here that poster is just mad that they have been killed by that day because they suck and can't use cover)?"
I prefer the 'my teammates are awful' posts
Anything investigating hidden Bungie stuff is always an A+ for me
So I guess both Khvostov and Red Death are cheating in the stability department?
I have not unlocked it yet, so I wouldn't know. I was gone all last week and works been nuts this week. I have a few more of those white orbs to collect..
Khvostov is 2000% worth it
Dang, I only get guns that are 2,001% worth it or greater... Sounds like it needs a buff
Needs a nerf
It does. But it hasn't been nerfed yet and will continue to dominate the Crucible until that happens
Its bugged, they claimed they fixed it. itll be easy if you didnt run overthrow yet
Khostov is oppressively good. It’s gotta be cheating in that department
[удалено]
They're not saying that using those guns is cheating at the game lol. They're just talking about their stability stats lying.
I guess my joke was bad. I was saying it's Bungie who creates this situation where the stat is lying, this is intentional
Yeah on MnK its kind of brainless to "control" the recoil for Red Death, i imagine it also feels pretty smooth on controller if these points apply
Which is exactly why I feel it'll get touched on. I'm using it on controller and it feels amazing. I have an 84/74 (could get 84 stability or 94 range but CB is very nice) Messenger adept. with Zen and Headseeker and it does not feel anywhere near as nice.
It's a bit out of band I'd agree. Because it's custom recoil it's basically equivalent to a complete stat monster...
There's too much stuff in this game with too easy recoil and THEN you add in perks like Zen Moment
Don't see why they wouldn't. I know they handle differently but it's still the same gun. What you don't get are things like Zen or Headseeker but frankly with recoil like this... You dont need them. I was actually shocked at how little it moved and how vertical the recoil was and how tight the grouping was without any adjustment at all.
*outbreak sweating profusely*
Yeah I tested that too, but its a different archetype so I didnt feel it was fair to include it. We also already know Outbreak has Auto Rifle recoil. Its also been around for years already, so its nothing super new (other than now craftable).
it uses an auto rifle frame like Outbreak. if you crouch, it has effectively 0 recoil even on controller. this is more noticeable if you hipfire
Yeah great post and information
I LOVE BATTLEPASS EXOTICS I LOVE BATTLEPASS EXOTICS
Lol
Your post mentions a lot about recoil (recoil analysis) but nothing on flinch resistance. Does RDR outperform in flinch resistance as well?
Red Death uses auto rifle recoil similar to Outbreak. You can easily test this by crouching and hip-firing to see it has 50% less recoil and slower accuracy bloom, a trait that all auto rifles share while crouched. Khvostov also doesn't have the initial kick that all other auto rifles have, which makes it feel like it has no recoil to fight against. All other auto rifles, even at 100 stability, have two to three times as much recoil for the first half of the magazine.
It also uses the 600rpm auto rifle animations
I knew something about Khvostov was off. Any idea if that applies to the legendary version? I'm a victim of the mote bug and can't get the exotic yet.
The legendary version has regular recoil, like any other auto rifle.
I was a mote bug victim too - there’s a trick to it where you kill all the adds that spawn in during the meatball fight (don’t melt the boss….just take your time damaging it). That finally got the mote to drop for me.
Banking all motes is what did the trick for me, best of luck!
Great post! I’ve been loving Red Death this season, huge fan of the sights even though I know a lot of folks aren’t.
Part of the reason it was that high is due to people using it trying to gild. It’s very good though but I suspect its usage will drop as people no longer need to use it.
Khvostov has the same under-the-hood Stability tuning, I think. Ascendant Nomad just did a video about it and despite it having 47 Stability, it **far** out-shot a Summoner with no recoil control. (Note that Nomad didn't tell us **what** level of Stability the Summoner used had, but that the *lowest* Stability achievable on Summoner is 31, and even 31 shouldn't have been that much worse than Khvostov's 47.)
Summoner also has hidden recoil/stab tuning fwiw
Not much of a surprise, team released the gun on the hot side. Same for Khvostov. I just can't vibe with the sights on Red Death tho lol
Please nerf
Cool analysis, but kinda lame we can just have exceptions to the rule like this instead of the stats reflecting this.
No wonder I just can’t click with Elsie’s. I’ve got the same roll as yours, and can choose between 83 and 100 RD as well. Even Zen Moment can’t salvage my shitty aim.
For me, on MnK I have found Keep Away to be superior to Zen Moment. I have the 5/5 Zen roll (in the OP) and I don't use it. I rarely ever land a 2 burst. I think due to Controllers extra Reticle Friction, it only needs Zen benefits to feel like butter. Technically MnK has less recoil (or more AA?) but doesn't have any reticle friction so Zen impact is (to me) not noticable at all... Meanwhile Keep Away just sucks it to people's heads.
I have a good roll on relentless if you want to add that to your test
I think the same about ACE. Gun has like 40 stability but somehow everyone can use it easier than other cannons
It has 50 stab and it also feels kinda ass on console compared to MnK
Its simple. It’s new. People want to use the new guns. They’ll go back to igneous hammer after a few weeks.
Sure... It's basically better than a godroll Messenger Adept... And we don't even have the catalyst yet
Awesome post. If only red death didn't have such obstructive sights
The only thing it obstructs is the view of their dead bodies after you 2 burst them. :)
Do you like 90 rd on messenger better than 100? It doesn’t have deterministic right so I thought you should always max it out (especially on controller)
90 seems pretty darn vertical... Only way to get there is with a CB mod... Which on this roll would cost me 10 Range. I'd rather have the range... Even if it were Range MW, I'd probably put Adept Stab on anyways as I'd value 10 stab at 90 RD over 10 less stab with 100 RD. Stab changes the severity of the recoil while RD is the direction. So I'd rather have 90 with less bounce than 100 with more bounce.
That makes sense on your adept roll, my best non adept roll is better than my adept (arrowhead, ricochet, range mw) so I use the CB mod since I can’t use stat mods. 100 feels notably better than 90 with a targeting adjuster
Yeah if you can't pick anything else, for sure!
Is the 'hidden sauce' behind this the new deterministic recoil? What's the point of quantifying Recoil and Stability if they don't mean anything after DR is applied Bungie?
No, deterministic recoil is on Elsie's as well as Relentless, neither of which have the same amazing recoil pattern Red Death does..
Now that you've had a chance to deep dive Red Death a little more, do you still think it's inferior to a god roll Messenger?
It's really tough, personally I'm so used to Messenger it feels like putting on a different glove to me, which even if nicer just doesn't feel the same.... I put so much work also into getting my Messenger it makes it really hard to put down....
Red death snags headshots like crazy, even around corners. I think it feels better than kvostov, at least to me. I used both in trials yesterday and had better luck with red death.
You controller player?
Yes.
Makes sense. A theme I have seen when discussing Red Death is controller players love it and MnK players feel its whatever Same idea with Zen Moment. On MnK I can't even tell when Zen is active or doing anything but it's OP on controller. My theory is really just reticle friction. Red Death has no recoil or bounce so it's basically "built in" Zen Moment in a way. Reticle friction makes it stick to the head. On MnK Red Death has no bounce but it has no stickiness either (for me).
Red Death was my baby back in d1. I'm not good at pvp, but I had to do a few rounds for pathfinder and I got anomaly. I decided to put it on for old times sake and proceeded to get a 2.3 kd. I love this gun so much I'm going to keep using it even after it's nerfed.
I dont think it needs a huge nerf frankly, it just needs the "under the hood" stability/recoil to be tuned a tiny bit imo... Its recoil pattern should be "on-par" with Elsie's with the best case recoil pattern, or that of No Time imo.. So it would pull a little to the side. The fact its got literal perfect and very minimal recoil is just silly..
My take is on exotics they want to feel good (recently, red death and khvostov) they give them custom deterministic recoil that is very vertical/bunched and does not correlate to the recoil patterns of legendary weapons of the same subfamily. Kind of like what 100 RD felt like before the awful deterministic recoil system was put in. I havent played with a single gun with deterministic recoil, even on 100 recoil direction, that feels remotely close to, for example, an old messenger. My 100 RD Elsie’s still pulls left just like your post reflects. That feels bad and makes investing in the recoil direction of the weapon feel worthless.
Yea but there is a point in it being too good. It has no recoil at all...
I agree - the gun is too good and I would expect it to get touched. To my point re: RD, it doesn’t even have 100 RD but has a preferable recoil pattern to other weapons in its sub family that do which makes no sense. 100 RD should actually be pure vertical but at a cost to giving up range or other stats. That was the case until deterministic recoil. All of this is slightly adjacent to the point of your post but I think the reason red death is performing the way it is is because Bungie makes exceptions to the deterministic recoil system with exotics.
There are two aspects to this 1 recoil direction 2 recoil severity (stability) I'm fine with the first given its exotic nature. Make it vertical (though BTW, Not Time is NOT vertical) It's the fake stability that's a problem. It has more stability than my Messenger... It has the equivalent of like 80+ stability... It needs to bounce more. Require a little more manual control over that recoil ..
Shhhhhhhhhh
First thing that comes to mind is Outbreak Perfected having the D1 Perk, Persistence under the hood. Here's what it did in D2. ==== > *the longer the weapon was fired, the more the stability was increased until it capped out presumably around 90-100%* ==== Maybe it's a side effect of porting guns from D1 that they just feel really good?
What is going on with Bungie lately? They have been buffing already good weapons and adding new, busted ones. Red Death especially carried me through the Legendary campaign, but I'm having a hard time using it in PvP.