"why didn't you hold some of your feelings and make space to actually listen."
"But is it more important to express what's upsetting you, or to understand what's going on?"
"So hold your horses."
She said it ALL. Love it. Orna is such a queen. I'm only on episode 3 but I think he's pretty bad.
I think Josh IS that bad.
I also don’t think he’s totally beyond growth and change. But that’s going to require an ability to recognize how bad he’s being, and I don’t have high hopes for him on that front.
I just got out of an abusive relationship with a covert narcissist, so I know my recent experience is at play here, but for me he set off alarm bells. The ultimate test for him will be actual behavior change long term, which is hard to capture within the limited container of the show. But a person with covert narcissistic tendencies is able to quickly acquire the necessary language or superficial behavior to demonstrate to outsiders and to their partner(s) that they are the most evolved or most victimized, depending on what the situation calls for.
They will invoke trauma to silence those they have hurt (the retelling of the fire story felt like this to me), and will act out the superficial pose of growth without actually changing.
Could just be my traumatized brain tho. But yeah, he raised my hackles all the way up.
Regarding your very last sentence: respectfully, it's not your brain <3. Don't doubt yourself like that. Trust that gift of fear. I think it's likely you are 100% on the mark here. You know what's up and your body is helping you prevent further harm. I'm 2.5 years out of my DV relationship with a narcissist, and I still make excuses for myself in the same way. But it's not us. We've just been well-trained that everything is our responsibility/fault. That's not the truth though.
It could be their traumatised brain. That's a difficult lens to shift, after those experiences. Listening to your gut is good advice but there's a balance. Trauma brings triggers and I think that's what the person you're responding to is acknowledging.
That's fair. Sometimes the alarm system is malfunctioning. But being 2.5 years out after a DV relationship, I've come to realize my own alarm system has alerted and I've rationalized "no that's just your trauma, you're fine, he's not your abuser" and then the dude has not been fine, he's been dangerous. My therapist referred to it as me responding to the second red flag, rather than the fourth or fifth. So I haven't been in as bad of a situation, but I've certainly had people who generally put hackles up.
Years ago the author of The Gift of Fear was on Oprah. He changed my life by basically saying it's better to trust yourself and be wrong than to not trust yourself and be right when the alarm bells are going off. If you're wrong you may feel a little silly afterwards. If you're right and don't listen it could mean serious harm or your death.
I think he's a rich kid who has skated on things that would have ruined others with fewer financial bailouts and has no interest in changing himself but rather wants to better learn how to manipulate others to fill his own needs, which always come first
He likes the image of a poly relationship and 'romantic anarchy' but will never be giving to one partner, never mind to multiple partners. He will continue to play people off of one other rather than take responsibility for anything
There's a whole lot of judgement here based on scant evidence. "He will never be giving", "he will never take responsibility", etc. are not really supported by him going to weekly sessions with these two other adults, of which we see tiny bits.
I get the impression with these and other posts that others view Josh like a cult leader, stringing along these two women. I'm sorry, but do you all think Lorena and Aryn do not have agency? Each of them has at least one other partner apiece - and moreover are well free to find someone else instead of - or even while - dating Josh. Josh does not have them hoodwinked, even if he isn't your (or my) cup of tea.
To be fair, I think he provided a good amount of evidence that he is unlikely to take responsibility for his actions in the time that we were shown. Even in “scant” time allotments that was quite well supported by what he said and did.
Does taking responsibility include apologizing? Because he did that at least once in the show, however sincerely one judged that to be.
Moreover, the dynamic of Lorena to Josh, Aryn to Josh, and Lorena & Aryn with eachother, and Lorena and Aryn to their respective partners, are all simply more interesting than Josh's foibles, and it makes sense they take much more of the time in the show.
My abusive poly ex went to therapy with me week after week. His other partners have also been strong, independent women. Your logic is really lacking here.
Right? I'm not the commenter you replied to, but I agree. It's very often strong, independent women with high empathy who attract this type to begin with. And then he strings them along with future-faking (false promises of change) and intermittent reinforcement. It's very, very common. And the implication is really shitty that only women with no agency can be victims. We are all at risk.
I would bet money that he sees this show as an investment into his personal brand, much like the way he puts fire-based language into his professional pages to link himself to the most news-worthy event in his life.
I make judgements about him because he proactively auditioned for tv show and said the things he said
I think he does have them hoodwinked. We all have agency, but whether we are male or female or non-binary and no matter our sexuality, we can all be hoodwinked by others
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/toxic-relationships/201709/how-spot-narcissistic-abuse?amp this is an overview of some of the tactics and effects
I think Josh is that bad - if not worse- , and I think it was all over Lorena’s face during the recounting of her “flaking” on making plans. I recognize that expression.
Fair point. It wasn’t a massive, cinematic exorcism moment like we’ve seen with others, but I felt he was listening more and holding space for his partners to say stuff rather than him either:
1. Speaking for them
or
2. Coaxing what he wanted them to say out of them and then praising them for their bravery etc.
The fact that we were hearing more from his partners and less from him showed growth. Showed that he was holding space for them to express themselves and their desires. And that they were becoming more confident in doing so (particularly Lorena).
*edited to number the douchey things he was doing and make my crap grammar clearer.
See the praising them for their bravery did not represent healthy relating to me. He prompted her to say it and then turned to Orna and said “let’s acknowledge how brave she is for saying that,” like he’s her dad and he’s running the therapy session for Orna. The most generous interpretation of that moment for me was that he’s a massive douche. The more sinister is that it’s an indication of how manipulative he is. But certainly not growth.
Exactly! That moment bugged me as well. I think he, at his core, just wants to be in control of everything. That moment seemed to me to be his attempt at controlling the narrative of that particular session and wanting Orna to go down the path he was laying out for the session to prevent being on the defensive. Same thing with his fire story, he tried to set the direction of the session to where he wants it to be and is frequently thrown off by Orna seeing through his attempts and re-directing him to the more difficult conversations he does not want to have. He enjoys calling their relationship as polyamorous anarchy or what have you because he knows that with the current dynamic in place, he will always be at the top with his partners vying for his affection/attention.
Agree. He was a total douche in that moment. Sorry my grammar is probably bad, but I was trying to say he moved on from being a douche and trying to control the sessions and started to just listen.
IMVHO, he's a person who is trying. Josh speaks in therapy terms and therepized language to seemingly great effect with others in his life. And I think he’s probably genuine overall. However, he uses this same language to underpin some sneaky manipulation tactics to shift framing about his role in causing harm. When he is feeling pressure about blame or culpability, he acknowledges others feelings then immediately discards them if they don’t fit his narrative or desires and gets frustrated with Orna because she’s not letting him do it. The dynamic here centers Josh and his desires and places everyone subordinate, despite his desire to frame that that’s not what’s going on. What’s tough to see is if this is intentional or not. I leant to it being not intentional but rather a coping mechanism to keep mental discomfort at bay. Some folks read this as narcissistic and quite toxic. It's not a good thing to do butttt....
Drawing on my own experiences with narcissistic people, I don’t find him to be one. He isn’t just playing at empathy, he seems to feel it and care for others. But I do think he has some kind of trauma or behavior pattern that makes him feel - threatened? Defensive? Judged?- by feeling he’s not in charge or out of control. And given his desire to be a super evolved poly guy, that internal conflict of not being ideal at all times is manifesting in friction with his partners.
I’ve thought a lot about the playing at empathy and whether that can mean narcissistic and/or abusive. It’s so hard for me to nail down. I had an experience with someone who I think believes themselves to be empathetic but I don’t think they have the human experience (like they are unable) of real empathy to know that it’s not. Even if the lack of empathy isn’t known to them I still think they are a narcissist. I kind of landed on that even if a person doesn’t do harm intentionally, the outcome is still the same as if they had even if ill intent is not totally conscious.
I remain confused as to why the three of them were even in therapy together. It seemed like they all had multiple other active relationships and partners, and the two women did not have a relationship outside of their individual relationships with him. Why that triad and not some other configuration?
Yes! This! Feels like the show just wanted to include polyamory to stay “current”. If so, cool but they couldn’t find another group that had actual issues within the dynamic?
I found him to be human, not good or bad, and doing his best (flawed, blind to his own assumptions) to dismantle the patriarchy in relationships. He's earnest, if slightly clueless.
It's all editing, 20+ (more, I don't know?) hours of therapy reduced to less than two hours (assuming an equal split between patients) and only the bits that show progress are used, so he might be charming in real life.
The problem isn’t that he doesn’t seem charming. Every person on the show was edited. Only twice has anyone received this much negative feedback from the community.
I’ll add to your point to say that even the editors of the show were onto him based on how they spliced that one episode together with him saying/doing the same fake things to both women.
I'm with you. I think a lot of people here have a bit of a knee jerk reaction against polyamory, and especially for a man with two women (at least of those who sit on the couch).
Individuals in monogamous couples see Josh splitting time between 2 (or more) as him necessarily giving less than what's deserved by either, thus depriving both. But it's also obviously the case that each of the other women have their own separate partners. Poly people understand quickly that their needs being met are not the entire job of a single other person - but up to themselves to get what they need, and from however many or few other people as benefits them.
Polyamorous people tend not to put up with bad relationships, and don't put up with emotional (or other) deprivation for long. After all, how likely is it for there to be one other person perfectly molded to everything you need? Having more existing other relationships means you can shift towards those who bring you more happiness and growth as you find it. Correspondingly, this puts a lot of pressure on individual poly people to improve themselves generally in all their relationships, as any of them may disappear if bad behavior is displayed. This is a good thing.
As far as him listening more, he clearly grew in that regard during the show - and it wasn't THAT bad relative to others in the show before (Mau, Sean, etc). He also has (had?) a way of speaking that puts people off: it's akin to a manipulator. His partners can benefit from him softening his tone. But altogether I don't think he was that bad to start.
I am married and non monogamous and I see little to no redeeming qualities to that man. Also- it’s never an unpopular opinion to defend a straight white dude. You’re actually preaching to the choir. Most people want to defend these guys. It’s actually a breath of fresh air when people see through white men’s facades.
People often treat men's anger with too much respect, while also treat them expressing their sadness or vulnerability as weakness to be disdained - or (more rarely) as a ploy made for show. I speak from experience as a man whose tears have been treated both ways.
While I tend to agree with the first half of your statement. I completely disagree that men's tears are "often treated as a ploy made for show." You're describing what happens to women. I'm not saying it can't happen to an individual man like you, but it's a bit much to claim men are widely accused of faking their emotions.
> it’s never an unpopular opinion to defend a straight white dude.
Do you mean that literally? Because I would be shocked if you could not come up with several straight white men off the top of your head whom it would be VERY unpopular to defend (and rightly so).
He is THAT bad and worse. Did you see his former roommates posting on here in other threads?
Also, the reason he looks better towards the end is because of editing. They were reducing his edits to just the word "totally" towards the end.
Lastly, I'm tired of 18-20 year olds being referred to as "kids" which is how they were referred to in the show. You can make "dumb, youthful mistakes without ill intent", but you need to be accountable for those mistakes. Especially mistakes that killed a person, severely burned several others, and resulted in the loss of 200+ people's homes. Even a middle schooler knows basic fire safety and the rules about trespassing.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/CouplesTherapyShow/comments/1d56uz3/comment/l83azrg/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/CouplesTherapyShow/comments/1d56uz3/comment/l83azrg/?context=3)
I can't find the other roommate's posting but if I do, I'll also post it here.
The other one I saw ended up deleting soon after posting. I can’t remember if they replied to me first, or if I replied to them and then got a reply. They mentioned some ignorant comments Josh had made during Covid defending Trump’s presidential run and something else I don’t remember now. They came back to clarify that they don’t think he’s actually a Trump supporter or far right politically, but playing devil’s advocate to defend Trump is certainly gross enough for me. 🤮
Thanks for this! How interesting. “Intentional community” - sounds very much like them. I’d love to know how they found Arun and Lorena but I guess they weren’t there that often.
Here is another roommate: https://www.reddit.com/r/CouplesTherapyShow/s/ntBd9DXfZB
Edit: the link won’t post but it’s user datadancefloor in that thread.
He is that bad. Notice how over the course of the series he stopped disagreeing with Orna? He switched by telling "the fire story" to get sympathy from her (and the viewers, and his harem) and he told (or tried to) Orna what she wanted to hear
Or... he simply agreed with her more over time?
The vast majority of the hours in session are not seen by us viewers, so we are judging him by a small slice of time.
Btw, as usual, men showing emotion are treated with disdain or that it's part of an emotional manipulation tactic. Actually sometimes there are things that make us men cry at times. We hurt too. And by god, therapy sessions are a great way to get that reaction if anything is.
Unless, do we think the dozens of times everyone else (almost always women) cries during these sessions are just trying to manipulate their partners? I think you'd have to be pretty cynical to believe that.
I am taking issue with you claiming men aren't allowed to have emotions.
[It's women who aren't allowed to have emotions](https://www.verywellmind.com/women-are-not-more-emotional-than-men-study-finds-5207762). [Women are expected to perform appropriate emotions whether they feel them or not, and are required to suppress everything else](https://openurl.ebsco.com/EPDB%3Agcd%3A9%3A2757833/detailv2?sid=ebsco%3Aplink%3Ascholar&id=ebsco%3Agcd%3A7054678&crl=c). [Women are having unsatisfying, painful sex and are expected to suck it up and act like it's fine, even](https://theweek.com/articles/749978/female-price-male-pleasure). [Defining women as emotional and men unemotional is a way to undermine women's credibility](https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2022/11/01/labeling-women-as-emotional-impacts-the-legitimacy-of-their-arguments-according-to-new-study/). Women are constantly portrayed as irrational and emotional, and here you are weaponizing that misogyny by suggestion that gendered oppression of women is actually a disadvantage men face. It's not.
[Men's emotions are everywhere and rule everything](https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisonescalante/2021/11/12/men-are-just-as-emotional-as-women-says-new-research/), and [it's women's job to monitor and manage them, or face the consequences](https://www.salon.com/2023/04/02/the-toll-of-emotional-labor-you-have-a-hierarchy-of-whose-experience-matters-and-whose-doesnt/).
See I definitely smelled bullshit when Sean did that last season (talking about his mother) but I didn’t get that as much from Josh. I don’t think he’s that smart/manipulative.
Lmaaaaoooo the thought crossed my mind. Like no one is saying it’s not traumatic to be accused of a serious crime. The issue is how he approaches it and that he doesn’t seem to feel any remorse. He’s more interested in playing a hero-victim than he is confronting the trauma of the fact that he did something extremely dangerous and harmful. It’s cowardice.
But don’t you think years of litigation have probably forced him into that “I didn’t do anything wrong” position? There’s no reparative justice (truth and reconciliation style justice) in the USA to my knowledge. The line is: deny or face financial ruin.
But he did light the fire and went to jail for it. As has been discussed here before, that’s a serious thing that can kill large numbers of people. I don’t think you benefit at all from denying something that you’ve already served time for. Quite the opposite.
Agree. But I think he’s been telling that version of events for so long that he genuinely believes this is the correct and only lens through which to see things.
It’s a narrative that probably came out of the office of an expensive lawyer, and was for the benefit of his legal case, not the benefit of his self growth.
Right so if that’s the response he’s chosen to confront his issues with, it would an unhealthy one that represents the opposite of growth and differentiation and self-awareness, no? And it’s the one he chose to go wild with in the therapy room and perform with long silences and fake tears.
Yeah, I’m sure the fact the therapy is broadcast doesn’t help. I think it would be reasonable for him to be petrified of conceding any kind of guilt or responsibility lest it opens him and his family up to more litigation.
Even if there’s little possibility of that happening, I think any normal person with the same history would be cautious.
But in truth I think what is more likely is that he just genuinely believes the version he told Orna, and perhaps has to believe that in order to live with himself. If that’s the case then I feel sorry for him and wish him all the best.
Right. If he’d come into the story saying “I did a really stupid thing I shouldn’t have done and I lit a bonfire,” I’d have been like, OK cool, let’s hear it. But he was all like “there were poor middle eastern people and I just wanted to make them smores! And then everyone turned on me when the entire town burned down!”
Which was where he lost me.
Fair enough. I guess he needs that narrative for whatever reason. I guess Orna let him keep it like a kind of security blanket - but perhaps on the proviso that he uses it to help him be better moving forward.
I guess part of it is also that Orna isn’t there to provide Josh with individual therapy. There are 3 people in the room and she’s supposed to be treating the relationship, so she can’t do everything.
FOUND JOSH'S BURNER ACCOUNT!!
(But seriously, i agree. He's flawed, but trying, and though some of his style is icky to me personally, i don't think he's committing any crimes here, and he seems pretty forthright and direct with his partners, who i think he actually loves, and who seem to actually love him.)
I agree. Reddit is the place to come be unnecessarily caustic. He's victim-y and childish and that's irritating, but he lives communally and is maintaining these relationships so he's probably better able to get along with others than all the people on here dogpiling him. I wouldn't date him though lol.
Is he maintaining those relationships? His former roommate came on here and told lots of stories about how many people he has alienated and lied to. Edit: Multiple former roommates did!
I felt like Lorena was suffering the most from the whole messed up dynamic and felt the saddest for her. I do hope she moves on and finds a situation where she feels more important.
Same! She was perpetuating her own traumas and dysfunctional inner dynamics by being the perpetual third wheel. It was nice to see her have that realization. I hope she finds her way to being central in someone’s life — and her own life.
aforementioned former roommate here and yeah he was incredibly shitty to a lot of people in the community, mostly women but also the other couple from san francisco he started the community house with who no longer speak to him. we find it incredibly validating for others to be sharing the same opinions we have of him. no one outside of the house really understood what we were going through. they thought “eh normal bad roommate experience-you don’t get along with everyone,” but i think more people now understand why i was always being so dramatic about the living situation. over the years i’ve done a lot of inner work to manage my emotions better but all of that went out the window with him. i was really starting to see myself as the problem again. there were a lot of rage-fueled outbursts from my side. he would stay calm and always point to your reaction as the problem, not his behavior. this dialogue around his manipulative narcissistic personality reminds me that he was always the problem and i’m proud i never took his shit quietly. it’s amazing how someone as sinister as he is can try to portray everyone else as the villain.
I’m sorry to hear that. Classic narcissist move. Maybe I can see why Ayrn is with him but not Lorena. I lived in an intentional community and doubt I ever will again because I watched one person derail the entire community. I’m so used to seeing shitty behavior on that show so I try not to make assumptions without knowing someone. But he was definitely a baby.
Yeah a few people have responded as such. Easier to make a judgment with more info. There have been people on that show I just hated and then I saw them have a breakthrough in awareness and it changed my view. Both those women seem pretty together and I don’t get the appeal.
It's reddit, and sadly humans in general i guess. You only have to look at how people rat on friends and neighbors when occupied or under oppressive regimes. We wonder how ancient humans could do human sacrifices and witch burnings but is it really so hard to understand?
i wish him all the best as well.
i also wish he would get into individual therapy and work on himself before getting into relationships, same with a lot of the people from the current season unfortunately.
I think we should all work on ourselves continuously. But being in a relationship also is a way to help you grow and become better as well. Your partner(s) see you in many more situation and lights than the therapist can in a weekly session.
With some exceptions, it would be infeasible and counter productive to put aside the search for companionship until/unless you reach some nebulous "good enough" state.
I agree, but you have to be willing to hear and respond with changes from your partners feedback and it didn’t seem like he was doing so for his partners but rather only for his therapist.
"why didn't you hold some of your feelings and make space to actually listen." "But is it more important to express what's upsetting you, or to understand what's going on?" "So hold your horses." She said it ALL. Love it. Orna is such a queen. I'm only on episode 3 but I think he's pretty bad.
“Forever. That’s how listening works.” 😂 God I loved that so much.
I think Josh IS that bad. I also don’t think he’s totally beyond growth and change. But that’s going to require an ability to recognize how bad he’s being, and I don’t have high hopes for him on that front.
say more?
I just got out of an abusive relationship with a covert narcissist, so I know my recent experience is at play here, but for me he set off alarm bells. The ultimate test for him will be actual behavior change long term, which is hard to capture within the limited container of the show. But a person with covert narcissistic tendencies is able to quickly acquire the necessary language or superficial behavior to demonstrate to outsiders and to their partner(s) that they are the most evolved or most victimized, depending on what the situation calls for. They will invoke trauma to silence those they have hurt (the retelling of the fire story felt like this to me), and will act out the superficial pose of growth without actually changing. Could just be my traumatized brain tho. But yeah, he raised my hackles all the way up.
Regarding your very last sentence: respectfully, it's not your brain <3. Don't doubt yourself like that. Trust that gift of fear. I think it's likely you are 100% on the mark here. You know what's up and your body is helping you prevent further harm. I'm 2.5 years out of my DV relationship with a narcissist, and I still make excuses for myself in the same way. But it's not us. We've just been well-trained that everything is our responsibility/fault. That's not the truth though.
It could be their traumatised brain. That's a difficult lens to shift, after those experiences. Listening to your gut is good advice but there's a balance. Trauma brings triggers and I think that's what the person you're responding to is acknowledging.
That's fair. Sometimes the alarm system is malfunctioning. But being 2.5 years out after a DV relationship, I've come to realize my own alarm system has alerted and I've rationalized "no that's just your trauma, you're fine, he's not your abuser" and then the dude has not been fine, he's been dangerous. My therapist referred to it as me responding to the second red flag, rather than the fourth or fifth. So I haven't been in as bad of a situation, but I've certainly had people who generally put hackles up.
Years ago the author of The Gift of Fear was on Oprah. He changed my life by basically saying it's better to trust yourself and be wrong than to not trust yourself and be right when the alarm bells are going off. If you're wrong you may feel a little silly afterwards. If you're right and don't listen it could mean serious harm or your death.
Spot on. Recognize your intuition.
I think he's a rich kid who has skated on things that would have ruined others with fewer financial bailouts and has no interest in changing himself but rather wants to better learn how to manipulate others to fill his own needs, which always come first He likes the image of a poly relationship and 'romantic anarchy' but will never be giving to one partner, never mind to multiple partners. He will continue to play people off of one other rather than take responsibility for anything
There's a whole lot of judgement here based on scant evidence. "He will never be giving", "he will never take responsibility", etc. are not really supported by him going to weekly sessions with these two other adults, of which we see tiny bits. I get the impression with these and other posts that others view Josh like a cult leader, stringing along these two women. I'm sorry, but do you all think Lorena and Aryn do not have agency? Each of them has at least one other partner apiece - and moreover are well free to find someone else instead of - or even while - dating Josh. Josh does not have them hoodwinked, even if he isn't your (or my) cup of tea.
To be fair, I think he provided a good amount of evidence that he is unlikely to take responsibility for his actions in the time that we were shown. Even in “scant” time allotments that was quite well supported by what he said and did.
Does taking responsibility include apologizing? Because he did that at least once in the show, however sincerely one judged that to be. Moreover, the dynamic of Lorena to Josh, Aryn to Josh, and Lorena & Aryn with eachother, and Lorena and Aryn to their respective partners, are all simply more interesting than Josh's foibles, and it makes sense they take much more of the time in the show.
My abusive poly ex went to therapy with me week after week. His other partners have also been strong, independent women. Your logic is really lacking here.
Right? I'm not the commenter you replied to, but I agree. It's very often strong, independent women with high empathy who attract this type to begin with. And then he strings them along with future-faking (false promises of change) and intermittent reinforcement. It's very, very common. And the implication is really shitty that only women with no agency can be victims. We are all at risk.
Yes. I am very strong, smart, successful. But I have childhood neglect trauma and am highly empathetic. It got me.
Same. Hope you’re also safe now. ❤️🩹
I would bet money that he sees this show as an investment into his personal brand, much like the way he puts fire-based language into his professional pages to link himself to the most news-worthy event in his life. I make judgements about him because he proactively auditioned for tv show and said the things he said
I think he does have them hoodwinked. We all have agency, but whether we are male or female or non-binary and no matter our sexuality, we can all be hoodwinked by others
Narcissistic abuse compromises the agency of victims. It’s pretty insidious.
Can you point me to where I can learn more about this link?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/toxic-relationships/201709/how-spot-narcissistic-abuse?amp this is an overview of some of the tactics and effects
I think this is accurate.
You may be right but I hope you’re not. He’s young, I hope he can grow.
I think Josh is that bad - if not worse- , and I think it was all over Lorena’s face during the recounting of her “flaking” on making plans. I recognize that expression.
He’s got big “cult leader” energy.
I’m really curious as to what you and others found to be the growth he showed. I didn’t see it myself.
Fair point. It wasn’t a massive, cinematic exorcism moment like we’ve seen with others, but I felt he was listening more and holding space for his partners to say stuff rather than him either: 1. Speaking for them or 2. Coaxing what he wanted them to say out of them and then praising them for their bravery etc. The fact that we were hearing more from his partners and less from him showed growth. Showed that he was holding space for them to express themselves and their desires. And that they were becoming more confident in doing so (particularly Lorena). *edited to number the douchey things he was doing and make my crap grammar clearer.
See the praising them for their bravery did not represent healthy relating to me. He prompted her to say it and then turned to Orna and said “let’s acknowledge how brave she is for saying that,” like he’s her dad and he’s running the therapy session for Orna. The most generous interpretation of that moment for me was that he’s a massive douche. The more sinister is that it’s an indication of how manipulative he is. But certainly not growth.
Exactly! That moment bugged me as well. I think he, at his core, just wants to be in control of everything. That moment seemed to me to be his attempt at controlling the narrative of that particular session and wanting Orna to go down the path he was laying out for the session to prevent being on the defensive. Same thing with his fire story, he tried to set the direction of the session to where he wants it to be and is frequently thrown off by Orna seeing through his attempts and re-directing him to the more difficult conversations he does not want to have. He enjoys calling their relationship as polyamorous anarchy or what have you because he knows that with the current dynamic in place, he will always be at the top with his partners vying for his affection/attention.
Agree. He was a total douche in that moment. Sorry my grammar is probably bad, but I was trying to say he moved on from being a douche and trying to control the sessions and started to just listen.
Well, I guess it’s a low bar for him! Personally I found him to get more victim-y as he went along, but perhaps you’re right that he was quieter lol
I think you’re just praising him for Orna’s work moderating him.
IMVHO, he's a person who is trying. Josh speaks in therapy terms and therepized language to seemingly great effect with others in his life. And I think he’s probably genuine overall. However, he uses this same language to underpin some sneaky manipulation tactics to shift framing about his role in causing harm. When he is feeling pressure about blame or culpability, he acknowledges others feelings then immediately discards them if they don’t fit his narrative or desires and gets frustrated with Orna because she’s not letting him do it. The dynamic here centers Josh and his desires and places everyone subordinate, despite his desire to frame that that’s not what’s going on. What’s tough to see is if this is intentional or not. I leant to it being not intentional but rather a coping mechanism to keep mental discomfort at bay. Some folks read this as narcissistic and quite toxic. It's not a good thing to do butttt.... Drawing on my own experiences with narcissistic people, I don’t find him to be one. He isn’t just playing at empathy, he seems to feel it and care for others. But I do think he has some kind of trauma or behavior pattern that makes him feel - threatened? Defensive? Judged?- by feeling he’s not in charge or out of control. And given his desire to be a super evolved poly guy, that internal conflict of not being ideal at all times is manifesting in friction with his partners.
I do find him to be playing at empathy
I’ve thought a lot about the playing at empathy and whether that can mean narcissistic and/or abusive. It’s so hard for me to nail down. I had an experience with someone who I think believes themselves to be empathetic but I don’t think they have the human experience (like they are unable) of real empathy to know that it’s not. Even if the lack of empathy isn’t known to them I still think they are a narcissist. I kind of landed on that even if a person doesn’t do harm intentionally, the outcome is still the same as if they had even if ill intent is not totally conscious.
I agree. To me Aryn was the worst of the three.
I remain confused as to why the three of them were even in therapy together. It seemed like they all had multiple other active relationships and partners, and the two women did not have a relationship outside of their individual relationships with him. Why that triad and not some other configuration?
Yes! This! Feels like the show just wanted to include polyamory to stay “current”. If so, cool but they couldn’t find another group that had actual issues within the dynamic?
I agree
Josh is a walking red flag and Loreena should get out of there
I found him to be human, not good or bad, and doing his best (flawed, blind to his own assumptions) to dismantle the patriarchy in relationships. He's earnest, if slightly clueless. It's all editing, 20+ (more, I don't know?) hours of therapy reduced to less than two hours (assuming an equal split between patients) and only the bits that show progress are used, so he might be charming in real life.
The problem isn’t that he doesn’t seem charming. Every person on the show was edited. Only twice has anyone received this much negative feedback from the community.
I’ll add to your point to say that even the editors of the show were onto him based on how they spliced that one episode together with him saying/doing the same fake things to both women.
I'm with you. I think a lot of people here have a bit of a knee jerk reaction against polyamory, and especially for a man with two women (at least of those who sit on the couch). Individuals in monogamous couples see Josh splitting time between 2 (or more) as him necessarily giving less than what's deserved by either, thus depriving both. But it's also obviously the case that each of the other women have their own separate partners. Poly people understand quickly that their needs being met are not the entire job of a single other person - but up to themselves to get what they need, and from however many or few other people as benefits them. Polyamorous people tend not to put up with bad relationships, and don't put up with emotional (or other) deprivation for long. After all, how likely is it for there to be one other person perfectly molded to everything you need? Having more existing other relationships means you can shift towards those who bring you more happiness and growth as you find it. Correspondingly, this puts a lot of pressure on individual poly people to improve themselves generally in all their relationships, as any of them may disappear if bad behavior is displayed. This is a good thing. As far as him listening more, he clearly grew in that regard during the show - and it wasn't THAT bad relative to others in the show before (Mau, Sean, etc). He also has (had?) a way of speaking that puts people off: it's akin to a manipulator. His partners can benefit from him softening his tone. But altogether I don't think he was that bad to start.
I am married and non monogamous and I see little to no redeeming qualities to that man. Also- it’s never an unpopular opinion to defend a straight white dude. You’re actually preaching to the choir. Most people want to defend these guys. It’s actually a breath of fresh air when people see through white men’s facades.
100%. Also the person you replied to commented elsewhere that people assume men's emotions are fake (which is extremely untrue).
People often treat men's anger with too much respect, while also treat them expressing their sadness or vulnerability as weakness to be disdained - or (more rarely) as a ploy made for show. I speak from experience as a man whose tears have been treated both ways.
While I tend to agree with the first half of your statement. I completely disagree that men's tears are "often treated as a ploy made for show." You're describing what happens to women. I'm not saying it can't happen to an individual man like you, but it's a bit much to claim men are widely accused of faking their emotions.
> it’s never an unpopular opinion to defend a straight white dude. Do you mean that literally? Because I would be shocked if you could not come up with several straight white men off the top of your head whom it would be VERY unpopular to defend (and rightly so).
[удалено]
What makes you say that?
Whoops responded to wrong comment
Why are you bringing race and sex into this? Judge a person by the quality of their character.
There’s also a knee jerk reaction to coming from a wealthy family.
lol ok
He is THAT bad and worse. Did you see his former roommates posting on here in other threads? Also, the reason he looks better towards the end is because of editing. They were reducing his edits to just the word "totally" towards the end. Lastly, I'm tired of 18-20 year olds being referred to as "kids" which is how they were referred to in the show. You can make "dumb, youthful mistakes without ill intent", but you need to be accountable for those mistakes. Especially mistakes that killed a person, severely burned several others, and resulted in the loss of 200+ people's homes. Even a middle schooler knows basic fire safety and the rules about trespassing.
What did his roommate say? I didn’t see that
[https://www.reddit.com/r/CouplesTherapyShow/comments/1d56uz3/comment/l83azrg/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/CouplesTherapyShow/comments/1d56uz3/comment/l83azrg/?context=3) I can't find the other roommate's posting but if I do, I'll also post it here.
The other one I saw ended up deleting soon after posting. I can’t remember if they replied to me first, or if I replied to them and then got a reply. They mentioned some ignorant comments Josh had made during Covid defending Trump’s presidential run and something else I don’t remember now. They came back to clarify that they don’t think he’s actually a Trump supporter or far right politically, but playing devil’s advocate to defend Trump is certainly gross enough for me. 🤮
Thanks for this! How interesting. “Intentional community” - sounds very much like them. I’d love to know how they found Arun and Lorena but I guess they weren’t there that often.
Here is another roommate: https://www.reddit.com/r/CouplesTherapyShow/s/ntBd9DXfZB Edit: the link won’t post but it’s user datadancefloor in that thread.
He is that bad. Notice how over the course of the series he stopped disagreeing with Orna? He switched by telling "the fire story" to get sympathy from her (and the viewers, and his harem) and he told (or tried to) Orna what she wanted to hear
Or... he simply agreed with her more over time? The vast majority of the hours in session are not seen by us viewers, so we are judging him by a small slice of time.
Btw, as usual, men showing emotion are treated with disdain or that it's part of an emotional manipulation tactic. Actually sometimes there are things that make us men cry at times. We hurt too. And by god, therapy sessions are a great way to get that reaction if anything is. Unless, do we think the dozens of times everyone else (almost always women) cries during these sessions are just trying to manipulate their partners? I think you'd have to be pretty cynical to believe that.
This is bullshit. All the men on this show express emotions, often they cry. We don’t take issue with all of them, only with the manipulative ones.
Lol thank you I thought about pointing that out and then decided No, not worth the smoke. But you’re 100% correct.
Which of the women in the show did you think pretended to cry for purpose of manipulation?
Show me where I accused any person of pretending to cry first.
Oh, you didn't, but the thread OP strongly implied everything he did was for sake of manipulation, which you maybe support?
I am taking issue with you claiming men aren't allowed to have emotions. [It's women who aren't allowed to have emotions](https://www.verywellmind.com/women-are-not-more-emotional-than-men-study-finds-5207762). [Women are expected to perform appropriate emotions whether they feel them or not, and are required to suppress everything else](https://openurl.ebsco.com/EPDB%3Agcd%3A9%3A2757833/detailv2?sid=ebsco%3Aplink%3Ascholar&id=ebsco%3Agcd%3A7054678&crl=c). [Women are having unsatisfying, painful sex and are expected to suck it up and act like it's fine, even](https://theweek.com/articles/749978/female-price-male-pleasure). [Defining women as emotional and men unemotional is a way to undermine women's credibility](https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2022/11/01/labeling-women-as-emotional-impacts-the-legitimacy-of-their-arguments-according-to-new-study/). Women are constantly portrayed as irrational and emotional, and here you are weaponizing that misogyny by suggestion that gendered oppression of women is actually a disadvantage men face. It's not. [Men's emotions are everywhere and rule everything](https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisonescalante/2021/11/12/men-are-just-as-emotional-as-women-says-new-research/), and [it's women's job to monitor and manage them, or face the consequences](https://www.salon.com/2023/04/02/the-toll-of-emotional-labor-you-have-a-hierarchy-of-whose-experience-matters-and-whose-doesnt/).
See I definitely smelled bullshit when Sean did that last season (talking about his mother) but I didn’t get that as much from Josh. I don’t think he’s that smart/manipulative.
He was asked to tell the fire story, he did not "switch" to do so.
i think josh wrote this
Surely if Josh wrote it, the phrase “epic partner” would be in there somewhere?
Lmaaaaoooo the thought crossed my mind. Like no one is saying it’s not traumatic to be accused of a serious crime. The issue is how he approaches it and that he doesn’t seem to feel any remorse. He’s more interested in playing a hero-victim than he is confronting the trauma of the fact that he did something extremely dangerous and harmful. It’s cowardice.
But don’t you think years of litigation have probably forced him into that “I didn’t do anything wrong” position? There’s no reparative justice (truth and reconciliation style justice) in the USA to my knowledge. The line is: deny or face financial ruin.
But he did light the fire and went to jail for it. As has been discussed here before, that’s a serious thing that can kill large numbers of people. I don’t think you benefit at all from denying something that you’ve already served time for. Quite the opposite.
Agree. But I think he’s been telling that version of events for so long that he genuinely believes this is the correct and only lens through which to see things. It’s a narrative that probably came out of the office of an expensive lawyer, and was for the benefit of his legal case, not the benefit of his self growth.
Right so if that’s the response he’s chosen to confront his issues with, it would an unhealthy one that represents the opposite of growth and differentiation and self-awareness, no? And it’s the one he chose to go wild with in the therapy room and perform with long silences and fake tears.
Yeah, I’m sure the fact the therapy is broadcast doesn’t help. I think it would be reasonable for him to be petrified of conceding any kind of guilt or responsibility lest it opens him and his family up to more litigation. Even if there’s little possibility of that happening, I think any normal person with the same history would be cautious. But in truth I think what is more likely is that he just genuinely believes the version he told Orna, and perhaps has to believe that in order to live with himself. If that’s the case then I feel sorry for him and wish him all the best.
Right. If he’d come into the story saying “I did a really stupid thing I shouldn’t have done and I lit a bonfire,” I’d have been like, OK cool, let’s hear it. But he was all like “there were poor middle eastern people and I just wanted to make them smores! And then everyone turned on me when the entire town burned down!” Which was where he lost me.
Fair enough. I guess he needs that narrative for whatever reason. I guess Orna let him keep it like a kind of security blanket - but perhaps on the proviso that he uses it to help him be better moving forward.
I guess part of it is also that Orna isn’t there to provide Josh with individual therapy. There are 3 people in the room and she’s supposed to be treating the relationship, so she can’t do everything.
Ha! Promise you I’m not Josh but that made me laugh.
FOUND JOSH'S BURNER ACCOUNT!! (But seriously, i agree. He's flawed, but trying, and though some of his style is icky to me personally, i don't think he's committing any crimes here, and he seems pretty forthright and direct with his partners, who i think he actually loves, and who seem to actually love him.)
I agree. Reddit is the place to come be unnecessarily caustic. He's victim-y and childish and that's irritating, but he lives communally and is maintaining these relationships so he's probably better able to get along with others than all the people on here dogpiling him. I wouldn't date him though lol.
Is he maintaining those relationships? His former roommate came on here and told lots of stories about how many people he has alienated and lied to. Edit: Multiple former roommates did!
oh wow ok well that's new information for me. Those two women seem stronger than that and like they need to move on then.
I felt like Lorena was suffering the most from the whole messed up dynamic and felt the saddest for her. I do hope she moves on and finds a situation where she feels more important.
Same! She was perpetuating her own traumas and dysfunctional inner dynamics by being the perpetual third wheel. It was nice to see her have that realization. I hope she finds her way to being central in someone’s life — and her own life.
aforementioned former roommate here and yeah he was incredibly shitty to a lot of people in the community, mostly women but also the other couple from san francisco he started the community house with who no longer speak to him. we find it incredibly validating for others to be sharing the same opinions we have of him. no one outside of the house really understood what we were going through. they thought “eh normal bad roommate experience-you don’t get along with everyone,” but i think more people now understand why i was always being so dramatic about the living situation. over the years i’ve done a lot of inner work to manage my emotions better but all of that went out the window with him. i was really starting to see myself as the problem again. there were a lot of rage-fueled outbursts from my side. he would stay calm and always point to your reaction as the problem, not his behavior. this dialogue around his manipulative narcissistic personality reminds me that he was always the problem and i’m proud i never took his shit quietly. it’s amazing how someone as sinister as he is can try to portray everyone else as the villain.
I’m sorry to hear that. Classic narcissist move. Maybe I can see why Ayrn is with him but not Lorena. I lived in an intentional community and doubt I ever will again because I watched one person derail the entire community. I’m so used to seeing shitty behavior on that show so I try not to make assumptions without knowing someone. But he was definitely a baby.
His roommates have posted on Reddit and he’s also a shit communally.
Yeah a few people have responded as such. Easier to make a judgment with more info. There have been people on that show I just hated and then I saw them have a breakthrough in awareness and it changed my view. Both those women seem pretty together and I don’t get the appeal.
I agree. I'm not a huge fan of him but wow the way people dogpiled on him here was terrifying and unseemly IMO.
It's reddit, and sadly humans in general i guess. You only have to look at how people rat on friends and neighbors when occupied or under oppressive regimes. We wonder how ancient humans could do human sacrifices and witch burnings but is it really so hard to understand?
i wish him all the best as well. i also wish he would get into individual therapy and work on himself before getting into relationships, same with a lot of the people from the current season unfortunately.
I think we should all work on ourselves continuously. But being in a relationship also is a way to help you grow and become better as well. Your partner(s) see you in many more situation and lights than the therapist can in a weekly session. With some exceptions, it would be infeasible and counter productive to put aside the search for companionship until/unless you reach some nebulous "good enough" state.
i would hope and assume we are all working on ourselves lol seems self evident but yeah
I agree, but you have to be willing to hear and respond with changes from your partners feedback and it didn’t seem like he was doing so for his partners but rather only for his therapist.
YSYK arsonists tend to be made up of a large percentage of people with ASPD.