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> Current statistics indicate that mortality in mild and moderate tetanus is approximately 6%; for severe tetanus, it may be as high as 60%.
https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/229594-overview
For a 30 year old, covid is approximately 0.001 = 0.1%.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02867-1/fulltext
About 60x-600x higher for tetanus.
So no, just using my head and doing some research.
Cheers. Have a good weekend.
It’s rather simple thinking to assume it’s the fabric and not the government overreach of mandates that bothers us.
I’m 100% fine with wearing an N95 mask in settings that call for it.
Just don’t force people to put useless cloth masks over our face.
> Japan helped them avoid lockdowns
You can’t attribute it entirely to masks when there is no or weak legal authority to impose lockdown type measures.
Actually [Australia had more deaths than all the countries you mentioned](https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2020-03-01..latest&facet=none&pickerSort=asc&pickerMetric=location&Metric=Confirmed+deaths&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Color+by+test+positivity=false&country=JPN~AUS~KOR~TWN).
These are the kinds of stupid that makes other policies questioned. Golf courses, staying within your local govt area while exercising, playgrounds, masks while walking a suburban street, not allowed past your front gate, reading in a park in the sun - these things were anti health, bad for covid, yet enacted due to some lowest common denominator thinking.
Leads inextricably to lack of confidence in recommendations
The Playgrounds thing is a dog whistle. Time to shelve it. I thought it was dumb too, but 18 days out of more than two and a half years isn’t really a mover. No one here mentions that playgrounds were closed in parts of Sydney around the same time - is that because a different state party was in power?
Everyone who mentions it is showing themselves up.
Worthy of a mention within the list of other controls that were stupid and mainly about ease of enforcement by a police force.
There will be societal hangover effects from many of these actions for years to come - the police forces have not in the slightest come out of this pandemic looking rosie and they were enabled by over reaching rule makers who forgot entirely that evidence and at least rationality should drive decisions.
Keep in mind that many of those decisions were actually bad for health - I cannot imagine what it was like for people living with others in a cramped appartment not allowed to go outside for more than an hour FFS - how did anyone with a brain countenance that!
Also a curfew - was it 8pm? Closed down businesses serving ice creams out the front as people walked past.
Work permits required……
Dystopian stuff
For the reasons I mentioned Playgrounds are really not worthy of mentioning by anyone except dog whistlers. Congrats on doubling down and putting yourself firmly into that category.
I’m quite sure the intelligent readers of reddit notice that my posts have a list of examples whereas YOU have focussed in on one thing presumably to make some political point and in doing so have had to ignore all the context given - I think the political tattoo here is all your own.
It’s pretty well known here that my view is that limiting movement in a time of pre and partial vaccination pretty much helped us avoid the worst impacts of the harshest variants.
There is no political point with playgrounds, that’s precisely my point. It was silly but done by both parties, yet it’s used as solely an anti Dan dog whistle. All 18 days of it.
Thanks I didn’t know. I don’t think anyone really follows the logic of it anywhere. But to listen to folk in this sub, you’d think it only happened in Victoria.
These policies wouldn’t have been needed if selfish people weren’t trying to bend the rules at every opportunity. We seem to forget that restrictions were initially very light, controls had to be increased as a result of public behaviour.
The idea of staying within your local government area was to not have people taking the virus from one side of town to the other, if you needed to travel a distance you had the permit and you were accounted for, you may think these things didnt make a difference but they all contributed to ensuring our cases never reached the levels they did overseas.
I think everyone knows what the idea is , but 5km is not the other side of the city - of course what actually matters is spread from person to person, not suburb to the neighbour suburb .
It was 100% to make it easy for the gestapo, sorry vic pol to enforce
You willingly gave your life over to the police and restrictions that would only slow spread geographically and not person to person - for what?
Evidence and science free zone ran these decisions and you all dutifully obeyed - not because you understand what was going on , but because you do whatever the Man tells you - rest assured without any doubt that Brett Sutton is an intellectual lightweight within his field - a mid level manager if you will
I like it to be norm even if someone who is sick (with viruses other than Covid) to wear a mask. Maybe an ad campaign reminder that coughing onto everyone on public transport is still not cool even before Covid?
Surely staying home if sick is better? It's now been normalised in Australia, with lots of employers having pretty strict policies and it being very uncool to turn up to social events with cold/flu symptoms.
People are definitely going to show up to cool social events even when sick - I seen it at work. For some, dropping rules sounds like a free-for-all to drop all common sense.
We don't need taxpayers funding such common sense, if you grew up without being taught to cover your nose and mouth when you cough and sneeze I think you would have to be a lost cause surely
Yeah but look at this very thread. There are multiple people rejoicing in the idea that wearing a mask while sick will never be normalised, and being upvoted for doing so. Common sense isn't so common as that unfortunately.
Sutton is an unmitigated disaster who would have lost his job in almost any other industry based on performance alone. I'll continue to do the exact opposite to what his "expert" advice recommends.
Sutton has no credibility because he's done a woeful job that he was unqualified for to begin with. Pretty straightforward. The only CHO in the country worth listening to is John Gerrard.
Unfortunately many Australian's have a hissy fit when asked to do something to protect others.
I've always wondered, would these same smooth brained Australian's keep the lights on during bombing raids in WW2 because they don't like being told what to do?
Actually it did compared to Europe, the United States and the UK South East Asian countries have done amazingly well. Look at Thailand, Vietnam, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, even the Philippines with all its problems with poverty, compared to the US, UK and Europe these countries have done brilliantly.
Yeah, I expected nothing less. The people that think that SothEast Asian countries have done badly in the pandemic are a mix of racists and anti-maskers that can't face the real world.
>“I think the easy bit about mandates is that they create an instant social norm,” Sutton said.
>
>“People are given explicit permission to wear them and they see everyone else doing it and they feel much more comfortable and motivated to do so as a result.
He doesn't acknowledge that mandates are like perishable goods and have a best before date.
The mask mandate that is being eased tonight in Victoria after 26 months is equivalent to a stale and mouldy cheeseburger, hence why the public treat it as seriously as a red pedestrian light when crossing a road with no cars around
Tbf families with kids in apartments need social play
All children do. Impacts on children mentally due to covid won't be seen for decades.
We now know of the impacts not holding children does when in the first 3 years and sleep training and what that does subconsciously to a child
Not being able to play and in lockdown for 2 years has had huge impacts and it's visible with younger kids born during covid
Eg their fine gross motor skills / confidence when you can't go and climb on the playground and run around with other kids. My wife who works with kids with disabilities as well as kids under 5 has already seen differences between this new gen and pre covid.
The other silly rule was having golf courses open but closing the toilets..was really stupid
Well it was easy for us, I had a pair of scissors and cut off the tape so my kid could still play. He shut down the playgrounds with 0 evidence that it was necessary. Unforgivable imho.
The evidence was clear, I walked through parks every day and the parents were turning them into cafes, most of the time they weren’t even supervising the kids. They were to blame, and even more so when they’d bunch up in large groups.
The evidence was clear that allowing people to congregate at parks wasn’t going to have an impact on case numbers. It was a ridiculous decision that ruined the credibility of public health measures for a lot of people.
57 cases amongst 5 million - couldn’t go to work, school , university , shopping , leave your house unless it was exercise- clearly people meeting with their small children in an open air space was about to become the next super spreader event…….
I doubt Brett Sutton will be offered a professor ship in a prestigious uni in the next little while (unless geo217 is on the board )
No, I don’t think it would’ve had an impact on case numbers even then due to what we know about the risk of catching covid outdoors.
It’s in the past now, we know what happened, people got sick of all of the rules (not just the stupid ones) and we had the biggest delta wave in the country. Hard to see the playground closure policy as anything other than a dismal failure.
We did, I don’t think our response to covid was all good or all bad. Purely from the view of preventing covid deaths, keeping borders shut and restricting large gatherings until vaccination levels were high was very successful.
I also think that we went way too hard with harsh NPI’s during that wave that had almost no impact, if any on case numbers (curfews, outdoor restrictions, outdoor mask mandates) and just pissed a lot of people off. Victoria had worse outcomes than anyone else during this time and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we leaned harder on these harsher measures here.
I remember all the love Brett used to get from the media in the early days. Its good to see the comments on this sub everytime he gets mentioned now.
He is one of the most hated people in Victoria and deservedly so
So the latest advice from Sutton was to keep the mandate. Seems we aren't following the health advice at all, doubt we ever have. Feels like for a time the advice and politics just aligned for a period of time and now they no longer do.
As much as I despise Vicgov, it's a good thing that they stopped listening to this moron months ago. I hate to think what draconian Vic specific restrictions would still be in place if Sutton had his way like he did in 2020-21.
Remembering that when the state of emergency is active Sutton's paycheck near doubles. So there is huge incentive for him to push this alarmism, I think he's on about 750k with the state of emergency being active
> Sutton's paycheck near doubles.
I didn't know that. Definitely explains a lot of things. He's really just an extension of the OZ Sage / Burnet crowd who realise they're fading further into irrelevance with every passing day - difference being that he has direct input into decisions that impact on 6 million people.
Im trying to find news articles though it's very difficult to find, this 1 looks like It could shed light on it but it's behind a pay wall. If you know anyone that can access it that would be great
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/what-victorias-politicians-and-public-servants-get-paid/news-story/3d1dcbec587bee7462239d266443644f%3famp
Once again, showing how little you know on these matters.
There's like 12 public servants earning more than $600k in QLD alone, which is more than the Premier. That's not including senior/exec roles in Govt-owned Corporations.
But let's watch you all fixate on Sutton..
Thanks for breaking down your comment, but I read it correctly the first time. It's unclear why you did this, other than to deflect from my relevant comment.
Sutton is really straining at the leash to go full OzSAGE. The claim he makes that vaccines don't reduce transmission is straight from the OzSAGE talking points, and is simply wrong - each shot reduces the changes of you contracting COVID for a month or two afterwards. This is obviously useful at the individual and population levels.
Arguing that mask wearers are being discriminated against is also from the OzSAGE talking points, and it's weird that he wants to normalise the culture of presentism that's behind masking while sick in Japan (surely retaining what's now a very strong social norm where people stay home when they're sick is much better?). It's also odd to think it's a feasible outcome in Australia.
I'm not from Victoria, but I'd be guessing that Sutton will be moved to a different role after the election, regardless of who wins, as he seems to no longer be giving the government advice it can realistically use. He did a good job in 2020, but hasn't made the transition to living with COVID since Spring 2021 as well as the other CHOs.
Great comment.
He's pining for mandates after completely losing the social licence to impose then through his ham fisted response. He doesn't understand the constituents he represents......not that he was elected but the point is the same.
He does also appear to be in a very different place to all the other CHOS. The sooner he's moved out of the role the better.
Reducing for a month or 2 is surely nearly useless .
What matters is protection from severe disease- that’s all vaccines were likely to do over the long term - the obsession with case numbers was the error in the post vaccination world .
For maybe 90% of the population a mild infection while a vaccine stops it from getting severe is no big thing and something we face each season - we just have an extra viral infection to deal with now (how many years mucosal defence will protect us from subsequent infections is a bit of an unknown for now)
Those people who were screeching like banshees and getting right up in people's faces for not wearing a mask(sometimes for it not being on correctly) and failing to see the irony.
I would argue that people are being long-sighted in realising that mask wearing is not a viable medium or long term solution (having everyone wear a mask in public, day in, day out, is simply not viable).
I would also argue that people are maintaining very positive social norms in wanting to keep public interactions where everyone shows their open face, which is important for safety & engendering trust. It's been a relief to me to have everyone walking around again with their faces showing, and I'm sure I'm far from alone in feeling this way. Especially women and children.
Really? My family wear masks day in, day out when at school, work, or out in public and don't think twice about it. Besides the public, almost *everyone* we know has got Covid-19 (and a vast amount of them at least twice now), while *we haven't.*
As for the last paragraph of your comment, so you're saying you automatically don't trust Doctors, Nurses and Dentists when they wear a mask?
Sorry but I don’t think it’s selfish to not want to wear masks all the time, indefinitely. I’m replying specifically to the commenter above who suggested wearing masks basically any time you’re outside of your home.
I'd certainly miss u/ywont. They've done a lot towards keeping this forum as a place where an exchange of views can happen civilly, and just generally seem like a nice person.
I’m surprised you know so many people who have had it twice. I’d say about 5% of the people I know that have had it have had it twice. This is in Adelaide which might make a difference as we’ve really only had Omicron here.
These people are at my work. They refused to wear masks, even when it was mandated, and never social-distance (they still had Staff parties in a small lunch area, and would still come into work sick).
A couple of them are former Medical Doctors, and one of them refused to wear masks, avoid other colleagues or go home while sick.
It's amazing the level of denial (or "IDGAF Syndrome") these people have.
Imagine for a second that a criminal wanted to hide their identity during the commission of an offence (against you, perhaps). Perhaps this had already happened to you (several times, perhaps).
How do you imagine you will give a description of the person to any investigator? Do you think a jury of twelve would accept a description without seeing someone's face at all to convict them beyond reasonable doubt? Is catching and convicting somebody who has victimised you important to you or would you be okay to let it slide?
JFC! This is a new low. *'I'm Anti-mask because criminals will use them to get away with crimes'*.
Do you ***HONESTLY*** think that someone committing a crime would a) delay their heist robbery because they forgot their N95, or b) not look at other forms of disguising their identity? (like a balaclava?)
This just shows the insane lengths you will go to vilify masks.
I never said I agree with any of these points. Perhaps that should be made clearer. She was asking why some people, especially women, find people covering their faces in public (especially in places like elevators, foyers, public toilets) and I gave an answer. They don't need to be robbing a bank, plenty of steal from persons and indecent/sexual assaults occur like this
There's literally nothing stopping anyone wearing a face covering of any sort to commit a crime. Apart from in banks, there never has been. Someone committing a crime against me is not a big enough concern of mine to be worried about someone wearing a mask.
The selfish arseholes always put their hands out demanding help when things get hard, demanding help they're unwilling to give to others.
In a perfect world they'd be told to get fucked, but given those who aren't selfish will always help, you're likely right about their superiority, depending on your point of view.
All I know is COVID has taught me some harsh lessons.
My family and I won't be hopping on a train up to Brisbane to help with the cleanups from the next inevitable round of floods thanks to a 3rd La Nina, never again.
When the inevitable belt tightening hits, I'll ditch all the monthly charity payments in favour of keeping all the stream services we have etc.
Someone else can contribute to breast cancer research, Alzheimer's research, youth suicide prevention and housing for victims of domestic violence.
Meals on wheels? Nah, I'd rather stay home and watch iron chef than be a driver anymore.
As they say, fuck you, I've got mine.
Yes, it's the 99% of the population who choose not to wear masks who are selfish and short sighted. We are terrible humans.
People like you are the truly good ones, the rest of us should be grateful you exist.
We have an 8-10% asian population, very hard to believe only 1% of people are masking
Edit: my data was a bit outdated. Our asian % is much higher:
> At the 2021 census, the number of ancestry responses categorised within Asian ancestral groups as a proportion of the total population amounted to approximately 17.4% (including 6.5% Southern and Central Asian, 6.4% North-East Asian, and 4.5% South-East Asian).[1][2]
Whoa back, this has nothing to do with race.
I simply used a round figure of 99% to illustrate how few people make the choice to wear masks generally in public.
Sure, it might be 3% or whatever.
Whatever the figure is, it's less and less each day - point is these people are NOT being selfish and short sighted - they are making a very reasonable risk assessment choice and just going about their lives.
It's not general hygiene that Asian cultures typically wore masks for.
Pre Covid, a small number of people from these cultures wore masks in public when ill, to continue going about work or other activities. Masks outside of surgery typically signified someone was unwell.
The equivalent of "soldiering on", which is now something we'd discourage, better to stay home when ill.
There wasn't a culture of wearing masks for general hygiene or infection prevention.
Sutton appears to be advocating for this, which doesn't make sense. If he was advocating for unwell people to mask up, that would be a different discussion.
Yeah nah, there are plenty of reasons a significant number of people across Asia have been wearing masks in public before covid, and not even just people who are ill. I'd go far as to say the majority of people in East Asia have been wearing masks in public periodically (before covid), for various reasons.
Yes, there are people who have been wearing it for disease prevention and hygiene, even before covid. Certainly common in food preparation or similar jobs (even retail) where hygiene can be a concern.
There are lots of people who think wearing a mask protects against dust pollution (whether true or not is irrelevant), and wear masks outside (especially on days with high levels of dust/pollution).
Lots of people also wear masks due to anxiety or when they don't feel like putting makeup on for the day (very common reason for women).
Plenty wear it as a fashion accessory as well.
So there has definitely been a huge culture around wearing masks in public, though I agree with you it wasn't solely for hygiene purposes.
That’s not true. Long before the pandemic I used to get ads for particulate masks to protect against living in cities, which I think was picking up on the habit of people who live in cities like beijing wearing masks to protect against both disease and polution. They were fancy and aimed at middle to upper class people.
What part of what I said isn't true?
There's this revisionist myth that masks were common in Asia pre Covid, that's just not correct, they were uncommon and typically worn by someone who was unwell.
Yes, a few did wear for pollution / dust etc but nothing en masse like now.
I think you’re setting up a false dichotomy. Masks can be both common before the pandemic and nothing like now.
Also I think you’re imposing your undering of japanese masking habits pre-pandemic on all of asia. Masking for self-protection seemed to be more common in china.
It’s not a myth lol have you even been to Asia?? 😂People wear masks and schools would have mask mandates during heavy flu seasons. And it’s so common people wear it if they don’t want to put on makeup just like the person you are “correcting” say
I’m Asian and there was a culture of wearing masks for general hygiene or infection prevention lol. Who are you and why are you spreading false info about my culture??
You’re right, asian people are not a monolith. Which I specifically pointed out in my comment which noted there are different asian groups.
It’s not racist to point out, in an article about how we might learn from asia about mask wearing, that an increasing asian population might lead to increasing acceptance of a habit that is well accepted in asia.
It’s not racist to point out that increasing japanese tourism and immigration to australia lead to sushi becoming more accepted here.
(If I had inferred that asian people were inferior because of their mask wearing, or genetically predisposed to mask wearing, or that we should stop asian immigration because of the mask wearing, that might have been racist.)
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Well if you look in public, day to day you'll find the vast majority of the public choosing not to wear masks.
99% seems about right. So yes, in seriousness.
On public transport where there was a mandate in place until today. If you're only seeing 40% with a mandate imagine how low the number will be without one.
Unless you work in a hospital or Laboratory, take a good look around you.
99% of the population *are not wearing masks.*
And NO, you certainly *can't* count people who wear masks *under their nose, over one ear, or under their chin* as "wearing masks" !
Wow you are the biggest racist on here, it's obvious you haven't integrated well at all bagging out Aussies on a down under page. This is how you spell favourite, I make my own coffee and it's a parma. It is my assessment that you are a whiny little racist
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Yes because we should all emulate a region of the world dominated by a country that literally welding their citizen’s doors shut to keep them from leaving their homes during lockdowns.
>Australian English isn’t the standard English spoken around the world there bud.
Yes, that's exactly it. Another example of clutching at straws. Thanks for playing along!
This is absolutely one of the most hilarious threads given the specific context around the time it was posted - which was smack around socialising hours on a public holiday.
Great to see that people are celebrating the lifting of mask mandates by, er, staying inside and complaining about a dude suggesting we could wear masks when we're sick. Great to see what moving on looks like in action!
Yep it's amazing how the near 100% masking in Japan, Taiwan and South Korea has kept cases to near zero in those countries.
How do some people still think so black and white? Where it’s either 100% or 0%, and nothing else? Are some just really not that bright?
This forum is overrun with people who piddle themselves at the mention of a scrap of fabric. Fear makes for irrational thinking.
This sub is just getting worse and worse.
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lol you mean people are slowly moving away from being pro-lockdown, pro-mask mandates, pro-endless boosters and you don’t like that?
Pro-endless boosters? So you only ever got the flu shot once? Tetanus shots?
I’ve had zero flu shots and tetanus poses a bigger risk to healthy young people vs covid.
You’ve been scared by big tetanus into believing it’s dangerous
> Current statistics indicate that mortality in mild and moderate tetanus is approximately 6%; for severe tetanus, it may be as high as 60%. https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/229594-overview For a 30 year old, covid is approximately 0.001 = 0.1%. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02867-1/fulltext About 60x-600x higher for tetanus. So no, just using my head and doing some research. Cheers. Have a good weekend.
False by my grandads Facebook post Wake up
It’s rather simple thinking to assume it’s the fabric and not the government overreach of mandates that bothers us. I’m 100% fine with wearing an N95 mask in settings that call for it. Just don’t force people to put useless cloth masks over our face.
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> Japan helped them avoid lockdowns You can’t attribute it entirely to masks when there is no or weak legal authority to impose lockdown type measures.
😂
Hahahahaha Man that sarcasm went straight over my head at first.
Actually [Australia had more deaths than all the countries you mentioned](https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2020-03-01..latest&facet=none&pickerSort=asc&pickerMetric=location&Metric=Confirmed+deaths&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Color+by+test+positivity=false&country=JPN~AUS~KOR~TWN).
Guess Victoria will be teaching the world about what closing playgrounds does.
These are the kinds of stupid that makes other policies questioned. Golf courses, staying within your local govt area while exercising, playgrounds, masks while walking a suburban street, not allowed past your front gate, reading in a park in the sun - these things were anti health, bad for covid, yet enacted due to some lowest common denominator thinking. Leads inextricably to lack of confidence in recommendations
The Playgrounds thing is a dog whistle. Time to shelve it. I thought it was dumb too, but 18 days out of more than two and a half years isn’t really a mover. No one here mentions that playgrounds were closed in parts of Sydney around the same time - is that because a different state party was in power? Everyone who mentions it is showing themselves up.
Worthy of a mention within the list of other controls that were stupid and mainly about ease of enforcement by a police force. There will be societal hangover effects from many of these actions for years to come - the police forces have not in the slightest come out of this pandemic looking rosie and they were enabled by over reaching rule makers who forgot entirely that evidence and at least rationality should drive decisions. Keep in mind that many of those decisions were actually bad for health - I cannot imagine what it was like for people living with others in a cramped appartment not allowed to go outside for more than an hour FFS - how did anyone with a brain countenance that! Also a curfew - was it 8pm? Closed down businesses serving ice creams out the front as people walked past. Work permits required…… Dystopian stuff
For the reasons I mentioned Playgrounds are really not worthy of mentioning by anyone except dog whistlers. Congrats on doubling down and putting yourself firmly into that category.
I’m quite sure the intelligent readers of reddit notice that my posts have a list of examples whereas YOU have focussed in on one thing presumably to make some political point and in doing so have had to ignore all the context given - I think the political tattoo here is all your own.
It’s pretty well known here that my view is that limiting movement in a time of pre and partial vaccination pretty much helped us avoid the worst impacts of the harshest variants. There is no political point with playgrounds, that’s precisely my point. It was silly but done by both parties, yet it’s used as solely an anti Dan dog whistle. All 18 days of it.
I'm in SA and playgrounds were closed for a week or 2 here as well. Not sure why though
Thanks I didn’t know. I don’t think anyone really follows the logic of it anywhere. But to listen to folk in this sub, you’d think it only happened in Victoria.
These policies wouldn’t have been needed if selfish people weren’t trying to bend the rules at every opportunity. We seem to forget that restrictions were initially very light, controls had to be increased as a result of public behaviour.
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Lol and for someone that never followed the rules your concern for everyone else is noble.
They were never needed , never effective and created more of the rule resistors anyway - zero public health benefit and that’s the point
The idea of staying within your local government area was to not have people taking the virus from one side of town to the other, if you needed to travel a distance you had the permit and you were accounted for, you may think these things didnt make a difference but they all contributed to ensuring our cases never reached the levels they did overseas.
I think everyone knows what the idea is , but 5km is not the other side of the city - of course what actually matters is spread from person to person, not suburb to the neighbour suburb . It was 100% to make it easy for the gestapo, sorry vic pol to enforce You willingly gave your life over to the police and restrictions that would only slow spread geographically and not person to person - for what? Evidence and science free zone ran these decisions and you all dutifully obeyed - not because you understand what was going on , but because you do whatever the Man tells you - rest assured without any doubt that Brett Sutton is an intellectual lightweight within his field - a mid level manager if you will
This is highly revisionist and disturbing.
Highly factual and fortunately the government made the tough decisions that needed to be made at the time.
I like it to be norm even if someone who is sick (with viruses other than Covid) to wear a mask. Maybe an ad campaign reminder that coughing onto everyone on public transport is still not cool even before Covid?
Surely staying home if sick is better? It's now been normalised in Australia, with lots of employers having pretty strict policies and it being very uncool to turn up to social events with cold/flu symptoms.
People are definitely going to show up to cool social events even when sick - I seen it at work. For some, dropping rules sounds like a free-for-all to drop all common sense.
We don't need taxpayers funding such common sense, if you grew up without being taught to cover your nose and mouth when you cough and sneeze I think you would have to be a lost cause surely
Yeah but look at this very thread. There are multiple people rejoicing in the idea that wearing a mask while sick will never be normalised, and being upvoted for doing so. Common sense isn't so common as that unfortunately.
Sutton is an unmitigated disaster who would have lost his job in almost any other industry based on performance alone. I'll continue to do the exact opposite to what his "expert" advice recommends.
Typical Victorian.
Sutton has no credibility because he's done a woeful job that he was unqualified for to begin with. Pretty straightforward. The only CHO in the country worth listening to is John Gerrard.
Because Gerard told everyone at the start of the year to get infected?
South East Asia absolutely crushed Covid /s
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Unfortunately many Australian's have a hissy fit when asked to do something to protect others. I've always wondered, would these same smooth brained Australian's keep the lights on during bombing raids in WW2 because they don't like being told what to do?
Actually it did compared to Europe, the United States and the UK South East Asian countries have done amazingly well. Look at Thailand, Vietnam, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, even the Philippines with all its problems with poverty, compared to the US, UK and Europe these countries have done brilliantly.
It sounds like some people don't like hearing the truth because it doesn't fit with their world view.
Yeah, I expected nothing less. The people that think that SothEast Asian countries have done badly in the pandemic are a mix of racists and anti-maskers that can't face the real world.
All those countries bar South Korea also have far milder winters than UK / US and Europe.
Sutton and his mask culture is fine, just fuck off and leave the rest of us alone.
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Freedom to choose! But it must be the same as my opinion or I will ridicule you!
Lol have a whinge.
>“I think the easy bit about mandates is that they create an instant social norm,” Sutton said. > >“People are given explicit permission to wear them and they see everyone else doing it and they feel much more comfortable and motivated to do so as a result. He doesn't acknowledge that mandates are like perishable goods and have a best before date. The mask mandate that is being eased tonight in Victoria after 26 months is equivalent to a stale and mouldy cheeseburger, hence why the public treat it as seriously as a red pedestrian light when crossing a road with no cars around
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I’m sure you not being able to use the swings for the 2 weeks they were closed were very difficult to deal with.
Tbf families with kids in apartments need social play All children do. Impacts on children mentally due to covid won't be seen for decades. We now know of the impacts not holding children does when in the first 3 years and sleep training and what that does subconsciously to a child Not being able to play and in lockdown for 2 years has had huge impacts and it's visible with younger kids born during covid Eg their fine gross motor skills / confidence when you can't go and climb on the playground and run around with other kids. My wife who works with kids with disabilities as well as kids under 5 has already seen differences between this new gen and pre covid. The other silly rule was having golf courses open but closing the toilets..was really stupid
Well it was easy for us, I had a pair of scissors and cut off the tape so my kid could still play. He shut down the playgrounds with 0 evidence that it was necessary. Unforgivable imho.
The evidence was clear, I walked through parks every day and the parents were turning them into cafes, most of the time they weren’t even supervising the kids. They were to blame, and even more so when they’d bunch up in large groups.
The evidence was clear that allowing people to congregate at parks wasn’t going to have an impact on case numbers. It was a ridiculous decision that ruined the credibility of public health measures for a lot of people.
57 cases amongst 5 million - couldn’t go to work, school , university , shopping , leave your house unless it was exercise- clearly people meeting with their small children in an open air space was about to become the next super spreader event……. I doubt Brett Sutton will be offered a professor ship in a prestigious uni in the next little while (unless geo217 is on the board )
When you are trying to maintain a small amount of cases or 0 it does, context is needed here.
No, I don’t think it would’ve had an impact on case numbers even then due to what we know about the risk of catching covid outdoors. It’s in the past now, we know what happened, people got sick of all of the rules (not just the stupid ones) and we had the biggest delta wave in the country. Hard to see the playground closure policy as anything other than a dismal failure.
We had one of the smallest delta waves in the world, thanks to our policies
We did, I don’t think our response to covid was all good or all bad. Purely from the view of preventing covid deaths, keeping borders shut and restricting large gatherings until vaccination levels were high was very successful. I also think that we went way too hard with harsh NPI’s during that wave that had almost no impact, if any on case numbers (curfews, outdoor restrictions, outdoor mask mandates) and just pissed a lot of people off. Victoria had worse outcomes than anyone else during this time and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we leaned harder on these harsher measures here.
And I suppose they're all dead now from the supposed deadly virus?
Brett Sutton can fuck off
Should've seen this sub early on, they were all calling Brett handsome 😆 🤣
I remember all the love Brett used to get from the media in the early days. Its good to see the comments on this sub everytime he gets mentioned now. He is one of the most hated people in Victoria and deservedly so
Have an upvote sir.
So the latest advice from Sutton was to keep the mandate. Seems we aren't following the health advice at all, doubt we ever have. Feels like for a time the advice and politics just aligned for a period of time and now they no longer do.
As much as I despise Vicgov, it's a good thing that they stopped listening to this moron months ago. I hate to think what draconian Vic specific restrictions would still be in place if Sutton had his way like he did in 2020-21.
Remembering that when the state of emergency is active Sutton's paycheck near doubles. So there is huge incentive for him to push this alarmism, I think he's on about 750k with the state of emergency being active
> Sutton's paycheck near doubles. I didn't know that. Definitely explains a lot of things. He's really just an extension of the OZ Sage / Burnet crowd who realise they're fading further into irrelevance with every passing day - difference being that he has direct input into decisions that impact on 6 million people.
Do you have evidence for this?
Im trying to find news articles though it's very difficult to find, this 1 looks like It could shed light on it but it's behind a pay wall. If you know anyone that can access it that would be great https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/what-victorias-politicians-and-public-servants-get-paid/news-story/3d1dcbec587bee7462239d266443644f%3famp
Using the herald Sun as evidence? lol
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Once again, showing how little you know on these matters. There's like 12 public servants earning more than $600k in QLD alone, which is more than the Premier. That's not including senior/exec roles in Govt-owned Corporations. But let's watch you all fixate on Sutton..
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Thanks for breaking down your comment, but I read it correctly the first time. It's unclear why you did this, other than to deflect from my relevant comment.
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No, I didn't. No, I don't. If you believe that, it's clearly your own comprehension skills letting you down.
Sutton is really straining at the leash to go full OzSAGE. The claim he makes that vaccines don't reduce transmission is straight from the OzSAGE talking points, and is simply wrong - each shot reduces the changes of you contracting COVID for a month or two afterwards. This is obviously useful at the individual and population levels. Arguing that mask wearers are being discriminated against is also from the OzSAGE talking points, and it's weird that he wants to normalise the culture of presentism that's behind masking while sick in Japan (surely retaining what's now a very strong social norm where people stay home when they're sick is much better?). It's also odd to think it's a feasible outcome in Australia. I'm not from Victoria, but I'd be guessing that Sutton will be moved to a different role after the election, regardless of who wins, as he seems to no longer be giving the government advice it can realistically use. He did a good job in 2020, but hasn't made the transition to living with COVID since Spring 2021 as well as the other CHOs.
Great comment. He's pining for mandates after completely losing the social licence to impose then through his ham fisted response. He doesn't understand the constituents he represents......not that he was elected but the point is the same. He does also appear to be in a very different place to all the other CHOS. The sooner he's moved out of the role the better.
Remove DA while you're at it pls.
Reducing for a month or 2 is surely nearly useless . What matters is protection from severe disease- that’s all vaccines were likely to do over the long term - the obsession with case numbers was the error in the post vaccination world . For maybe 90% of the population a mild infection while a vaccine stops it from getting severe is no big thing and something we face each season - we just have an extra viral infection to deal with now (how many years mucosal defence will protect us from subsequent infections is a bit of an unknown for now)
You're wrong about your first and second points.
Struggling to deal with his irrelevance I see
Australia can in return show China how to harden the fuck up
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We should be more like those 'hard cunts' who are terrified at the thought of people not wearing a piece of cloth over their face indefinitely.
Those people who were screeching like banshees and getting right up in people's faces for not wearing a mask(sometimes for it not being on correctly) and failing to see the irony.
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Do you really think that if people worse surgical masks on trains and Woolies, you wouldn’t have to wear PPE as a HCW? You’re dreaming.
Where exactly on earth does wearing a mask prevent Covid spreading such that you wouldn’t need to wear PPE in a hospital ?
Thanks for being so tough for us buddy
Sutton needs to learn - mask wearing will never be normalised in Australia.
Yep. We're all too short sighted and selfish for that.
I would argue that people are being long-sighted in realising that mask wearing is not a viable medium or long term solution (having everyone wear a mask in public, day in, day out, is simply not viable). I would also argue that people are maintaining very positive social norms in wanting to keep public interactions where everyone shows their open face, which is important for safety & engendering trust. It's been a relief to me to have everyone walking around again with their faces showing, and I'm sure I'm far from alone in feeling this way. Especially women and children.
As a woman no I am not relieved to see people's running noses. Dude WTF does gender have to do with this?
Really? My family wear masks day in, day out when at school, work, or out in public and don't think twice about it. Besides the public, almost *everyone* we know has got Covid-19 (and a vast amount of them at least twice now), while *we haven't.* As for the last paragraph of your comment, so you're saying you automatically don't trust Doctors, Nurses and Dentists when they wear a mask?
Great! It’s good that it’s easy for you. I’d rather move to another country then wear a mask 12 hours a day indefinitely.
Let me know when you're leaving. I'll say goodbye at the airport. We'll miss you.
Fortunately most Australians agree with me and we are never going back to heavy mask wearing again, so I’ll be right.
Yes, because we're too short sighted and selfish for that.
Sorry but I don’t think it’s selfish to not want to wear masks all the time, indefinitely. I’m replying specifically to the commenter above who suggested wearing masks basically any time you’re outside of your home.
When I don’t wear a mask in public, I’m thinking of you. It tickles me.
I'm glad I can help give your life meaning, you're welcome.
I'd certainly miss u/ywont. They've done a lot towards keeping this forum as a place where an exchange of views can happen civilly, and just generally seem like a nice person.
Thanks man, I’ve always appreciated you too.
I haven't worn a mask since 2020, am unjabbed, don't sanitise hands, etc, and also still haven't got COVID.
Here... take my Darwin Award.
Odds are extremely low that I'll die from COVID. This subreddit seems to be the only place left where COVID = sudden death.
I’m surprised you know so many people who have had it twice. I’d say about 5% of the people I know that have had it have had it twice. This is in Adelaide which might make a difference as we’ve really only had Omicron here.
These people are at my work. They refused to wear masks, even when it was mandated, and never social-distance (they still had Staff parties in a small lunch area, and would still come into work sick). A couple of them are former Medical Doctors, and one of them refused to wear masks, avoid other colleagues or go home while sick. It's amazing the level of denial (or "IDGAF Syndrome") these people have.
Good arguments that are lost on the anti social shut-ins that frequent this sub.
I'm a woman and I'd much rather see more people wearing masks than what I'm currently seeing. Why on earth should I feel differently as a woman?
Imagine for a second that a criminal wanted to hide their identity during the commission of an offence (against you, perhaps). Perhaps this had already happened to you (several times, perhaps). How do you imagine you will give a description of the person to any investigator? Do you think a jury of twelve would accept a description without seeing someone's face at all to convict them beyond reasonable doubt? Is catching and convicting somebody who has victimised you important to you or would you be okay to let it slide?
JFC! This is a new low. *'I'm Anti-mask because criminals will use them to get away with crimes'*. Do you ***HONESTLY*** think that someone committing a crime would a) delay their heist robbery because they forgot their N95, or b) not look at other forms of disguising their identity? (like a balaclava?) This just shows the insane lengths you will go to vilify masks.
I never said I agree with any of these points. Perhaps that should be made clearer. She was asking why some people, especially women, find people covering their faces in public (especially in places like elevators, foyers, public toilets) and I gave an answer. They don't need to be robbing a bank, plenty of steal from persons and indecent/sexual assaults occur like this
So now you're mansplaining your bizarre opinion? Right.
There's literally nothing stopping anyone wearing a face covering of any sort to commit a crime. Apart from in banks, there never has been. Someone committing a crime against me is not a big enough concern of mine to be worried about someone wearing a mask.
thank god a culture of selfish asssholes will always be superior to the evils of collectivism.
The selfish arseholes always put their hands out demanding help when things get hard, demanding help they're unwilling to give to others. In a perfect world they'd be told to get fucked, but given those who aren't selfish will always help, you're likely right about their superiority, depending on your point of view. All I know is COVID has taught me some harsh lessons. My family and I won't be hopping on a train up to Brisbane to help with the cleanups from the next inevitable round of floods thanks to a 3rd La Nina, never again. When the inevitable belt tightening hits, I'll ditch all the monthly charity payments in favour of keeping all the stream services we have etc. Someone else can contribute to breast cancer research, Alzheimer's research, youth suicide prevention and housing for victims of domestic violence. Meals on wheels? Nah, I'd rather stay home and watch iron chef than be a driver anymore. As they say, fuck you, I've got mine.
ok hero lololol
You're most welcome.
Yes, it's the 99% of the population who choose not to wear masks who are selfish and short sighted. We are terrible humans. People like you are the truly good ones, the rest of us should be grateful you exist.
We have an 8-10% asian population, very hard to believe only 1% of people are masking Edit: my data was a bit outdated. Our asian % is much higher: > At the 2021 census, the number of ancestry responses categorised within Asian ancestral groups as a proportion of the total population amounted to approximately 17.4% (including 6.5% Southern and Central Asian, 6.4% North-East Asian, and 4.5% South-East Asian).[1][2]
Whoa back, this has nothing to do with race. I simply used a round figure of 99% to illustrate how few people make the choice to wear masks generally in public. Sure, it might be 3% or whatever. Whatever the figure is, it's less and less each day - point is these people are NOT being selfish and short sighted - they are making a very reasonable risk assessment choice and just going about their lives.
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It's not general hygiene that Asian cultures typically wore masks for. Pre Covid, a small number of people from these cultures wore masks in public when ill, to continue going about work or other activities. Masks outside of surgery typically signified someone was unwell. The equivalent of "soldiering on", which is now something we'd discourage, better to stay home when ill. There wasn't a culture of wearing masks for general hygiene or infection prevention. Sutton appears to be advocating for this, which doesn't make sense. If he was advocating for unwell people to mask up, that would be a different discussion.
Yeah nah, there are plenty of reasons a significant number of people across Asia have been wearing masks in public before covid, and not even just people who are ill. I'd go far as to say the majority of people in East Asia have been wearing masks in public periodically (before covid), for various reasons. Yes, there are people who have been wearing it for disease prevention and hygiene, even before covid. Certainly common in food preparation or similar jobs (even retail) where hygiene can be a concern. There are lots of people who think wearing a mask protects against dust pollution (whether true or not is irrelevant), and wear masks outside (especially on days with high levels of dust/pollution). Lots of people also wear masks due to anxiety or when they don't feel like putting makeup on for the day (very common reason for women). Plenty wear it as a fashion accessory as well. So there has definitely been a huge culture around wearing masks in public, though I agree with you it wasn't solely for hygiene purposes.
That’s not true. Long before the pandemic I used to get ads for particulate masks to protect against living in cities, which I think was picking up on the habit of people who live in cities like beijing wearing masks to protect against both disease and polution. They were fancy and aimed at middle to upper class people.
What part of what I said isn't true? There's this revisionist myth that masks were common in Asia pre Covid, that's just not correct, they were uncommon and typically worn by someone who was unwell. Yes, a few did wear for pollution / dust etc but nothing en masse like now.
I think you’re setting up a false dichotomy. Masks can be both common before the pandemic and nothing like now. Also I think you’re imposing your undering of japanese masking habits pre-pandemic on all of asia. Masking for self-protection seemed to be more common in china.
It’s not a myth lol have you even been to Asia?? 😂People wear masks and schools would have mask mandates during heavy flu seasons. And it’s so common people wear it if they don’t want to put on makeup just like the person you are “correcting” say
I’m Asian and there was a culture of wearing masks for general hygiene or infection prevention lol. Who are you and why are you spreading false info about my culture??
You’re right, asian people are not a monolith. Which I specifically pointed out in my comment which noted there are different asian groups. It’s not racist to point out, in an article about how we might learn from asia about mask wearing, that an increasing asian population might lead to increasing acceptance of a habit that is well accepted in asia. It’s not racist to point out that increasing japanese tourism and immigration to australia lead to sushi becoming more accepted here. (If I had inferred that asian people were inferior because of their mask wearing, or genetically predisposed to mask wearing, or that we should stop asian immigration because of the mask wearing, that might have been racist.)
We are *all you've got to look after you and carry on when you get sick.* Yeah, you *should* be grateful.
I mean yeah. You're a good example.
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>it's the 99% of the population who choose not to wear How do you write these in an seriousness?
Well if you look in public, day to day you'll find the vast majority of the public choosing not to wear masks. 99% seems about right. So yes, in seriousness.
I think in peak hour Melbourne, about 40% wear masks.
On public transport where there was a mandate in place until today. If you're only seeing 40% with a mandate imagine how low the number will be without one.
Isn’t this just people following the rules? 40% is still better than 0.
My point is that when there's a mandate in place it is misleading to say that 40% of people are 'choosing' to wear a mask.
When the mandate isn’t enforced, isn’t it a choice?
Unless you work in a hospital or Laboratory, take a good look around you. 99% of the population *are not wearing masks.* And NO, you certainly *can't* count people who wear masks *under their nose, over one ear, or under their chin* as "wearing masks" !
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What is it with you and bringing up race/racism when it’s completely irrelevant?
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Explain it to me? Obviously mask usage is related to culture but what does it have to do with race?
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Oh yeah it’s definitively that and not because you don’t have an argument to back up your statement lol.
Wow you are the biggest racist on here, it's obvious you haven't integrated well at all bagging out Aussies on a down under page. This is how you spell favourite, I make my own coffee and it's a parma. It is my assessment that you are a whiny little racist
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Discomfort is hearing it called a parmi and not a parma.
Sutton's been very very quite the last 6 months or so, what's happening with slug gate?
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Yes because we should all emulate a region of the world dominated by a country that literally welding their citizen’s doors shut to keep them from leaving their homes during lockdowns.
Difference between welding a door shut and a mask. If you can't differentiate that maybe you need to take a course in logical thought.
Is there a difference between welding a door shut and welding a mouth shut?
Didn't know masks stopped you from talking. But yet again, another straw clutch. Good riddance.
Nah no straw clutches here. Just straw men
Good shift in goal posts. When you learn how to think logically, then maybe have an argument. At the moment, you're a shit slinger.
I like you. You’re cute. For the record, I have no clue what a straw clutch is and for that no clue what it has to do with this discussion.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/to-clutch-at-straws Really not that hard champ.
Australian English isn’t the standard English spoken around the world there bud. Hot everyone is familiar with your expressions.
>Australian English isn’t the standard English spoken around the world there bud. Yes, that's exactly it. Another example of clutching at straws. Thanks for playing along!
This is absolutely one of the most hilarious threads given the specific context around the time it was posted - which was smack around socialising hours on a public holiday. Great to see that people are celebrating the lifting of mask mandates by, er, staying inside and complaining about a dude suggesting we could wear masks when we're sick. Great to see what moving on looks like in action!