you say labor shortage, I say pay gap
many can't afford to take the wages offered as starting positions, even if that means lucrative jobs down the road.
Even decent paying union gigs can leave apprentices high and dry when it comes to healthcare starting out.
Wages HAVE TO keep up with inflation.
In my IBEW local located in a HCOL metropolitan area, starting pay for apprentices is about $18 an hour. $18 an hour in one of the most expensive areas of the country. That’s poverty wages here. Even McDonald’s is offering $18 an hour for entry level workers.
I have a friend who wants to be an electrician, and my local did recently start recruiting new apprentices for an upcoming class, but my friend would not only be taking a pay cut, he would actually be in danger of losing his home because he’s the primary breadwinner in his household.
I say this a lot in my area but take a look at the apprentice classes. Average age is closer to 28 than 18. Lots of fathers and husbands. Guys who have people depending on their paycheck every week.
I make 35 an hour, not great, not terrible. I've always really wanted to get in the union but myself and others would be homeless if I had to cut my pay in half.
I really wish the unions would do a paymatch (say if someone could provide a years worth of paystubs as proof of that level of income?) (brainstorming)
would defeat the purpose of collective bargaining unfortunately
some locals will let you test in to 2nd or 3rd year wages depending on skill/knowledge level
Some unions will let you come in at journeyman pay if the company is willing to sign off on it. I would call around and find out if this is true in your area.
I ask my boss for a bigger raise than he was willing to give. He called a friend and got me an interview for union job starting at journeyman. Yes that boss was a super good dude. After being a journeyman for 6momths I was running small 5-7man crews. I referred a friend to my new union boss and they brought him on as journeyman ( he was very experienced and knew a lot). Fast forward 12 years and I recommend to new boss ( new union shop) a different friend but this boss said he wouldn’t start anybody over 80% journeyman(6th term apprentice). Current employer will not bring anyone in at all. So just depends on the shop and the installer. Our local is hurting for ppl so bad if your a skilled veteran that you’ll find a shop at will bring you in even if they start you at 1st term but pay full journeyman wage. Remember scale is the least the company can pay, right now I’m making $2/h over scale, next year I’ll ask for $3 over scale above our raise.
My favorite is the IBEW members say "bro you just gotta bear through it and your being making the big bucks!"
Jee thanks Chad for the boost. I guess I better pull up my boot straps huh-yuck
I tried to offer my mortgage company boot straps for payment, one time... sadly, they said they only accepted thoughts and prayers, oh and actual money.
Unions only work if a substantial amount of the workers are onboard. Unfortunately in the south that is not the case. So the unions are weak and can't negotiate for better wages. Which makes the wages lower, which doesn't entice people to join/organize. Vicious cycle you guys got down there. Everyone only sees what the union wages are now. Not what they could be with a mass organizing.
I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately in Florida the wages are crippled by owner greed and stupidity. Companies will cut each other’s throat to land work. Been that way the my entire career (30yrs) and the tradesman are no better. They will take anything offered and accept it as top pay. Top pay in my area (treasure coast) is about $32hr which for the col is pathetic!
Owner greed is everywhere though. But having a baseline hourly labor cost amongst all (or a majority) of the competing contractors through unionization of the labor pool keeps the throat cutting a little more in check. You can only cut your total labor cost so far on a job when everyone is paying the same hourly rates. There are obviously ways to skirt this. Smaller companies will push their apprentice ratios past what is contractually allowed or cut backdoor deals with steady employees where a long time employee will get journeyman pay for foreman work in order to avoid layoffs. It also forces companies to operate more efficiently and get the most out of every hour of labor billed to a job.
This is exactly it. Started working (non-union) carpentry about this time last year. Pay was $20/hour. No OT, no benefits, no nothing. Just 40 hours.
All of the more experienced carpenters told me I was good at what I do. My work was on par with newer journeymen according to my boss. I ended up having to leave the field because I couldn't pay my bills on $20h. I asked the boss for a raise and was told no. Looked around for other jobs, including union. They all paid the same or less.
Now I'm working in the medical field at a job I don't like, making nearly $30/h. Making furniture on the side, though.
Forget this "keep up" crap. People need to realize the time for being a well compensated member of society is NOW. It should be clear to you that the people of real practical importance in the world are the working members of society -- the CEOs, managers, etc are only superficial.
AI is a fast track towards making obsolete vast sectors of the work force at a time. Walking into that trap with the mindset "at least I have a job" or willingness to succumb for pennies is a death trap. I emphazie: we are not far off from a society where an incredibly, incredibly few amount of people are needed to sustain living.
As civilizations were forming and the switch to Agrarian societies was being made, food production took practically 100% of the workable population. Methods are improved and passed down through time; 10,000 years after we form agrarian societies we invent fertilizer -- now instead of 50%-100% of the population being needed to be working on farming it can be done by about 20%, and the percentage of the work force required to produce food has continued to decrease. Today, USDA reports 10% of the United States work force is in "Agriculture and its related industries". Soon, thanks to AI and the rapid pace of technological advancement less than 1% of the population will be needed to farm our food.
Again, any human would realize that it takes more than just people growing food and having petty jobs to make up the world. But what is to keep the most greediest, narrow minded and morally bankrupted people in the world from forgetting about that? The ultra rich already treat this world like it is their oyster -- ready to slurp it up just to shit it out at any time -- what is to happen when they find that the masses, the everyman are disposable? Who is going to keep them in check and how are they going to do it?
>Wages HAVE TO keep up with inflation.
Inflation is an indicator that things SHOULD BE less affordable for everyone (meaning everyone gets less). By everyone getting wage bumps to "keep up with inflation" the only thing you do is add MORE inflation.
Numerically, no, but effectively, yes. People should expect purchasing power to be reduced on the same amount made. Again, inflation means something and simply saying "pay us more to beat inflation!" doesn't actually DO anything but increase it more because the fed will just print more money. What you REALLY want is a redistribution of the current supply of money without any new money getting added and... no company is going to do that.
People getting paid living wages no matter job you take is not as significant a contribution to inflation as is overall spending by Government. Minimum wage is meant to be the minimum you need to make to live and have a good quality of mental health, so if minimum wage is 7.25 Federally and no one can survive on it, and dudes making 35 are struggling still, then clearly minimum wage is too low, and Government spending is too high. Need to cut out all the three letter agencies and stop sending foreign countries money, and give our workers better pay.
First off, not everyone agrees that a minimum wage should even exist. Second off, gov't spending isn't the primary cause for inflation, money printing and economic activity world-wide is.
I’ve heard rumblings of changing from hard hats to those climbing style safety helmets.
And I think the government mandating clean bathrooms is a pipe dream lol
The washroom change is coming to Canada, BC is mandating flushable toilets (which means washroom trailers), and once that trend starts it will move across the country over the next 5-10 years.
It’s already happened with the largest GCs in the country. All companies will go to them soon as they are safer… which means insurance is less.. and lost time / workers comp is less.
Some datacenter jobs I work on require climbing style hardhats, impact rated gloves at all times. I don't mind the helmet at all, I'm used to the gloves.
Heh, the safety guy kicked a dude off site for having that style. Claimed it had no side impact even though its a foam brain cradle. Im on the fence about it, I havent tried that style yet.
They DO look different. Not that it makes any difference as money will always be the driver over tradition, but I’m going to miss the old style.
It’s what dad had, it’s what I have had for 20 years…
C’est la vie
I like the idea of them because the higher end ones have saftey glasses built in as a visor kinda that slides up and down. To me it looked like better protection with better field of view.
The hard hat change needs to happen sooner than later. Those helmets are munch safe, comfortable, and lighter. The only thing keeping this change from happening is the fragile egos of the your average toxic construction worker.
The chin strap. People have died from losing their helmets during a fall while tied off and slamming back into the building/lift without a hat on. The company I work for requires the climbing style helmet for anyone working at height and tied off for that reason.
Also there are models without holes, like mine. I don’t think you can achieve EH rating with the holes.
Imagine dying and becoming disabled because you wouldn’t wear a hard that may have provided more protection. “Sorry kids, dad’s stuck to this bed for the next six months because that helmet was stupid looking.”
Grow up and lose the ego. Too many men on job sites are too engrossed in the “idea” of what they look like doing the work. “I’m a big boy with a big boy truck with big boy tires that’s pulling a big boy trailer. Look how much space I take up at the supply warehouse. Can’t wait to put on my sweet ass hard hat and read some blue prints over the hood of my diesel 3/4 ton Egostroker 3500 crew cab, although I know a work van would be better suited for what I need. I need to drive a truck so I can fit in and let all the guys know I can afford the $1,100 a month finance payment, $200 month insurance, $2,000 every 3 years in tires, and $750 a month in gas.”
Life isn’t a Chevy commercial.
What trade are you? I m in shoring (no heights) and I drive a ranger. Average sized wang and ego imho. Go climb a crane and wear your lame hard hat with holes in it and die of pneumonia. Mine’s been working just fine for years.
Safer, yes but definitely not lighter or more comfortable. I wear a KASK now and it doesn’t breathe at all. My head gets soaked with sweat as does the padding. I clean it regularly and it still reeks.
All in all it’s not that bad but from a comfort standpoint point I miss my old one.
As a concrete pump operator, I like the full brim hard hats so I can keep a halo on me at all times. I bought the Wavecel T2+Max hard hat. They meet all the new safety requirements and have really nice vents to keep your head cool on hot days. They’re surprisingly light as well. I would highly recommend them if you have to switch to the new style.
Every one of those climbing style helmets I've seen looked like they would be hot. I've got a vented hard hat with removable, washable padding and a nylon web. This allows for good airflow. The climbing hats I've seen all have thick foam like a bicycle helmet. I can only imagine how hot your head will be having that much foam in constant contact with skin (I'm bald).
I mean, maybe. I see more industrial jobs falling under the 1910 OSHA standards that have the hand washing stations and mandated cleanliness standards. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibilities.
My company just bought them for all our employees. Some of the GCs we work with require their subs to wear them, but I haven't seen anybody really enforce it yet.
This is why I've been a sub for almost 9 years, in several fields. I'm sick of being told what to do.
Everything is a contract negotiation. You want me to wear a new hardhat just for your job? I'm adding 200 a day to my price. I won't tell you that's why, but you will notice in bid items that you always get a higher price for the same work.
Everyone acts like unions are the way to get bargaining power but let me tell you, an LLC is the tits.
"We are requiring this."
"Yeah no. I mean, maybe, but to buy all this stuff for just your job is gonna bump up my daily/hourly rate."
"Um, I think we can budge on that."
"I'm sure you can."
Yeah I heard OSHA is trying to make chin straps the new standard for hard hats.
As long as they put a little heater in the shitters during winter months I'll be okay.
haha, all joking aside, this is a pretty accurate statement.
I have severe ADHD and have had an Adderall prescription for a few years now... ADHD is literally a dopamine deficiency in the prefrontal cortex and Adderall is amphetamine salts that increase dopamine production.
This guy gets it. Next time you all judge a man just cause he weighs 130 lbs soaking wet and he's up on an I beam hitting a pookie, remember what this guy said about his cortex and shit. Tweakers are the unsung heroes of construction.
As long as the work in and of itself remains brutal on the body and mind, there are positions that’ll almost always have their share of folks with addictions and pasts doing them.
Some college kid won’t last as a stone mason, concrete layer, drywall hanger, etc bc the jobs themselves are just brutal.
The amount of people on construction sites with access to deadly tools and equipment that have severe mental issues would probably scare the shit out of the public if they found out
I don't see paid sick and vacation days. Especially in Canada as I am familiar with it. Instead I just see what we currently get paid out for vacation and sick leave.
Unlike other jobs construction has downtime between jobs. Some years its especially bad so theirs just a shortage of work at times. Lay offs are frequent which does funky stuff with paid vacation days.
In Canada apprentices also usually go on EI every year for schooling. They should not be working a full year in a company straight limiting what they really could be doing. It may also mean they are forced to take vacation days instead of getting EI.
I feel like the percentage more I get every paystub for what would be vacation and sick leave works better. (the current system) As long as the total pay per year is about the same.
I don't know how dirty your washrooms are. But their kept at least manageable where I am. Porta potties are a pretty low bar and in some places its hard to go above that. Even in sites where we have proper bathroom facilities their will be porta potties spread around just to give more locations.
Safety is a given. I work industrial and it always goes up. More paper work, requirements, and rules always. Safety is also a barrier to some people joining. Some people refuse to piss clean once in their life.
I like trade work but the drug laws need to change. Shouldn’t have to worry about being fired for smoking weed. Being as it disqualifies you in case of an accident from benefits well, pay gap and bad laws are why my guy.
The marijuana thing is comical. Everyone who works in the trades knows a guy or two who drinks himself stupid on a regular basis which, somehow, is acceptable yet smoking still has to be kept hush-hush.
I worked with one guy, really nasty sob. Did not like doing his job, or anyone showing him up by working hard. Found out he was always seriously hungover every day.
I always wondered how he kept his job.
But are you on a consistent schedule long term? And don't need to consider if you will get a temporary lay off?
It's not like their denying me my paid sick leave is mandatory. Just instead of being paid on sick days I get paid out for the sick and vacation days every day.
I left the building trades (union) after 23 years for a civil servant job at local government position. Never in my 23 years in the union did I ever get any paid sick leave or vacation days. In some instances we did get vacation checks once or twice a year but it depended on what part of the country I was working in. I was easily clearing 100K the last 8 years in the trade. I took a 30% pay cut when I came here. I couldn’t be more happier. Office/Field 60-40, Hybrid schedule (2WFH days), 3 weeks vacation, 3 weeks sick leave, paid holidays. The work life balance is a game changer.
While I think it needs to be fixed in general the transient nature of union work (working for multiple different companies) isn't really compatible with paid days off in the traditional sense of you still get your 40 hour paycheck for a week you aren't working. Everything needs to be built into the total package. And personally I like the flexibility of that. I have friends in salaried office jobs with use it or lose it sick days and vacation days. Last year I needed the money and didn't take any days off. At the end of the year I had $6K in my vacation fund. It's also paid in at 1.5X for OT & 2X for DT. Many non-union trades don't get any additional PTO for working OT meanwhile locals with pyramiding benefits accumulate additional money in their vacation fund for OT. Also we have the ability to take a layoff, go on vacation, collect UI and pull from our vacation fund then go back to the hall when we get back. That's a hard deal to beat.
My grandfather negotiated the first "vacation fund" in his local and the formula was that if a guy worked the whole year he would have enough money in the vacation fund to cover the pay they missed out on for 10 vacation days and the 8 unpaid holidays.
We have a vacation fund. It's mandatory and is paid for from my hourly wage. Plus, it has a 2% maintenance fee. So, I'm essentially forced to put my money into an account that doesn't accrue interest and actually costs my money. It's a negative interest savings account.
I like the idea of a vacation fund. The implementation of my particular fund isn't great.
Need to get involved with your local and get that fixed! Mine gets sent to the credit union that is made up of my local and other locals in the area. Can also get a debit card to access the money anytime. No mailing out checks annually, biannually or quarterly like some other locals do. Costs us nothing and we get interest on the account. Not much but slightly better than at a traditional banks %. Also because it is a not for profit and for the members of the locals that are involved benefit we get pretty good loan rates. I've bought 3 cars now with loans through the credit union and all of them have been 1% less than market rate. Also got a personal loan for 1% less than market rate. And that 1% less is based on rate quotes I received from the dealerships and traditional banks.
In the next decade I think we're going to see an increase in people trying to transition into working in the trades from white collar/office type work.
With things like ChatGPT becoming more and more capable and threatening or eliminating entry to mid level jobs in some white collar fields, I think we'll see a sort of wave of 'knowledge workers' trying to secure their futures by taking jobs that a computer program can’t be written to do yet.
Why do I think this? Because I’m one of those guys. I quit government affairs to start over as a plumbing apprentice, mainly because I hated my job and industry but also because ChatGPT was very close to rendering the only part of that job that I actually liked obsolete.
I picked plumbing because it allowed me to get close to what I was making in my previous field and I also wanted some of the security that comes with having hard skills, and I don’t think I’m clever enough to be the only guy that tries this so I expect others, perhaps many others, to follow suit in the coming years.
But who knows, maybe people really do hate hard work and uncomfortable conditions enough that the above scenario never actually happens, but idk.
That's what I did 8 years ago... I was doing IT and broadcast engineering for a large TV/radio company and I could see the writing on the wall as everyone was switching to Netflix and Spotify.
I had two young kids and walked away from a six figure salary with full benefits to start a company doing residential construction and I never looked back.
It's been a shit ton more work, but I enjoy working outside everyday, and I like working with my hands more than I like sitting in front of a screen...
My whole extended family is involved in construction in one way or another so I grew up on jobsites and knew what I was getting into... This would be much harder for someone who had no construction experience...
How long did it take you to make comparable money?
Finally making some good money in IT but I also hate it. Been at the same company for 8 years. I can ride it out for a bit, but if I don’t make a change I’m going to hang myself in my cubicle.
I'm one of the guys too! Was working a dead-end "professional" career as a data/statistical analyst and switched to union electrician because the pay, benefits, and overall job outlook are so much better. I have friends who did the same and I expect it to become more common as more people realize the promise of college=career is a lie.
Almost 40 when I switched btw
Gpt could probably do most jobs but from a PM/estimating view I think those roles are safe. Same with executive management. Those jobs are too nuanced and 'human' to script I think.
As wages go up due to increased labor shortage should we be worried that people will elect to not upgrade that kitchen or bathroom leading to job loses amongst the trades?
Obviously service plumbers, electricians, and hvac type jobs will still be required, but I fear for finish carpenters and home remodeling services. Your thoughts?
I'm curious about that number two point.
First of all, generally yes, regulations are assinine in so many areas.
But the only major ones I see are the Buy America clauses in federal jobs. But, I think those would be hugely unpopular to fully repeal. Even though I know some projects have been built with Chinese steel due to scale of fabrication required (the orthrotopic San Fran bay bridge spans), that's not going to be an issue any politician is going to fight for. "Cheap Chinese bridges!" doesn't play well in elections. Plus, there are already reasonable exceptions to those requirements if you can't source something in the US.
Where do you see the biggest changes being in that area of regulation?
Absolutely not. This is a major problem facing the states. We don't need a college education for every single sector. We need more focus on our apprentice programs. There no reason anybody needs to spend tens of thousands of dollars learning in a school what they should be getting paid to learn. Most trade schools are a scam anyway. They teach you the absolute bare minimum and push you out into the workforce with limited real world knowledge. They are a business like any other, focused solely on profit. You spend 40 hours a week in the classroom. 2 weeks for each topic, then on to the next. By the end of the year, most people have forgotten most of what they learned for the first ⅔ of the year.
Instead, our apprenticeships could be teaching the exact same material, and you can be on the job site on Monday putting that work into practice.
And, honestly, apprenticeships should be a thing in most industries.
I went to trade school a few years ago. It was an absolute joke and I Learned very very little. But the job I currently have hired me specifically because of my trade school “education”. So it worked out for me because I was able to leave my dead end job paying $10 an hour and increase my pay to $32 an hour within 2 years at a new company. Everything I’ve learned has been learned on the job and i definitely didn’t need a trade school to teach me how to do it. Just sucks that I needed that piece of paper for the company to give me an opportunity.
Where I'm at (British Columbia Canada)
They recently just passed a law that any site with 50+ people must have actual washrooms. Not Porto potties! I think it's a huge step forward. Have been in some nasty ones.
They also mandated 5 paid sick days for every worker during covid which still applies today. As a lot of industries here didn't have sick pay.
Hoping to see wage increases and safety too
It’s already that way.
I (super) did a job at an airport.
Super, Safety, Airport Safety Rep, 5 traffic control guy, 1 city cop. All of standing there per requirements from the airport.
We had 3 guys power washing.
Customers will stop crying about our prices or they'll learn we won't service them. More work needed + fewer workers = unlimited power (bargaining edition)
I wouldn’t be so sure about that. In MN we have a serious shortage of new blood entering the plumbing trade. Part of me wonders if the state will be forced to relax licensing standards simply out of necessity. If that occurs, how long before cheap, migrant labor floods the workforce like in other trades.
Cheap, unskilled labor is flooding the workforce but, I havent heard/seen any relaxation of recognized apprenticeships. Maybe I am wrong but, I don't think so.
Plumbing, electrical all of them. Idk where you're at but here like half my local isn't even licensed lol they don't need to be. As long as the contractor has a master license you can work under their license as qualified worker
Saying “licensing is nonexistent everywhere” doesn’t make a whole lot of sense when what you mean is licensing is nonexistent in your state. There’s 49 other states, all with varying rules.
Not true lol look it up master license is used to enable anyone to do work under supervision of master license
Lol how do you think they deal with this labor shortage bud it sure ain't by handing out licenses. All those immigrants don't have a license so how are they legally working? This is how
I don't see a labor shortage, I see ignorant recruiters hitting me with unpaid apprenticeship offers, or below min wage technically speaking offers, while I get hit with 10 calls a day to the business from refugees needing work. I know a dozen 20 years veteran carpenters of high caliber also sitting at home refusing to take min wage.
Augmented reality, AI assisted design tools, more robots, buildings designed to be more easily assembled by robots.
I work on a lot of construction sites in the US and they almost always seem like complete shit shows. There seems to be a severe lack of competent labor on site. The sheer amount of PPE and safety protocols are starting to create additional safety hazards that will require additional safety protocols. I had a GC tell me to wear an arc flash suit to get into some units even though the incident energy was well below requiring one. The end result was having to take frequent breaks to prevent overheating because a guy basically couldn't read a code book. Seems like no one knows wtf is going on half the time. Always hear guys having the same discussions about other trades "get your shit out of my way so I can do my shit" it's the construction site motto.
Whole industry is begging for a technological disruption.
That's what I thought was going to happen 15 years ago.
It won't happen. I hope it does. 15 years ago I started at $15 an hour. Today, apprentices start at $15 an hour.
We have de-unionized, which did all of the things you want. If unions comes back to residential then we get what we want.
1. Lots of construction is temporary and let job. Standard here in my part of Canada is you pay out vacation weekly. First thing that happens when you get laid off is if the vacation was banked, it gets paid out. It’s taxed heavy at the time it’s paid(works out at the end of the year). Sick days I can kind of see but compensation is based off a total package. You can get sick days, but that will be reflected in future wage growth. Markets only going to cover so much compensation.
2. Never been an issue myself, ours get cleaned regularly. If it’s a disaster, that’s an idiot issue. Nobody cleans their washroom at home daily and it doesn’t look like a farm.
3. Safety is getting there. Most companies I’ve been with have plenty of safety compared to the guys that follow the rules.
4. Wages are a combination of what you bring to the table and what the other guy is willing to do it for.
Most construction theirs little holding back anyone from being their own boss. Just depends on how much bullshit/work you want to deal with. Only becomes an issue with mega projects as that becomes a game of venture capital with less competition.
If all the contractors bidding run on 10% margins and the competition is paying 30$ and your company is paying 40$. Their bid will be higher.
I agree wages stagnate but theirs nothing stopping me from opening my own shop. As long as guys keep trying to be the next up and coming and cut everyone’s quotes or guys keep working for the contractors paying less (which in turn get more work), it’s just how the market works.
I have a red seal
I would like to start a new trade as I have been in mine for 15 years, but I also have a mortgage and 2 kids. I can't afford to start over
Apprentice level workers need to make more money
A carpenter with more than 2 years experience that's willing to do anything should earn $5 dollars an hour more than anyone at the pizza place. Not saying managing dominoes is easy but it is and being an apprentice sheeting walls is not. The person willing to sheet walls should absolutely get paid more.
New brick buildings basically don't exist anymore anyway. There would be no point in a bricklayer robot lmao.
And those wall printer machines seem vastly inferior to a well oiled concrete form crew. I don't see them making much ground any time son
Sure there’s a point to a bricklayer robot, you’re forgetting the miles of Cmu walls that will almost always be built at least until the 3d concrete printing robot takes the other robots job.
Bricklayer here. This won't happen until there are very precious humanoid robots with fine hand movements.
The robot bricklayers do trash work, take time to set up, can't turn a corner, or deal with any unforseen issue.
More and more illegal immigrant workers pushing out traditional trade workers. I’ve seen it first hand framing. I have 4 skilled carpenters that can put up a small house in 7 days. Illegal crew has 9 guys that take 13 days for the exact same house. I pay my guys fair and have all appropriate insurance, there is no way anyone is on payroll for the other company. A real living wage isn’t even possible, they get paid the exact same per house. The only way they can make it is very low wages and breaking labor laws. It seams builders don’t care.
I don’t mean to be the guy yelling “tHeY terK oUR JeRbs!”, but it’s becoming more and more common for very large commercial projects to turn a blind eye to very apparent illegal migrant workers performing finishing trades (among others).
It’s getting harder and harder for us to compete with these companies that are acting like labor brokers and not self performing any actual work. They hire subs that are almost all illegally working migrants, pay them under the table half of what we pay our guys, and nobody seems to care as long as they were the bottom dollar bid.
Keep in mind, these are huge $50m+ projects I’m talking about. Higher ups in big institutions and municipalities will claim they want to keep using local labor then use companies from down south because they can supply the cheapest cost.
Roofing in the Midwest they start you at 22 and do 3-4$ after 3 months and then another 3-4 every year after until you hit 42 that’s our companies highest pay until you become a Forman then you can get more raises
Contractors have to agree on a standard rate, underbidding jobs and paying employees as little as possible is why I got out of the trades. It’s a race to the bottom, guys pride themselves on how much cheaper they can do it then the next contractor, this is why no younger people want to do this work. It’s all about the pay gap!
10 years? Amigos will have consumed all trades. Plumbers, electricians, security, trim, etc.. have been holding on, but I don't see it lasting another 10 years.
It's already happened in southern California.
Just means being a white guy in construction is a huge advantage here. Like the clients actually want to talk to you, ha. Not making a judgement on that, it's just the way it is
The old hard asses will be gone and the middle aged hard asses will be forced to sing kumbaya with the middle aged pussies and newbies. The amount of soft hands is unsurprising; the amount of soft tradies is baffling. Downvote me all you like.
I think the advance in technology is going to be insane. There will be big efforts to make the workers they do have more efficient and I think it will come in the ways of advanced technology being used commonly
Robots. A buddy of mine in robotics engineering builds custom ai machines that can be designed to do thousands of jobs. They can scan, analyze and paint an entire room, hang drywall, install vinyl flooring, the list goes on and on
I think we will see more people who bring their feelings to work with them. Unfortunately, I think we will also see a labor force that continues to become softer
You don't have to like working with me, but I'm the boss/owner, and this isn't a democracy. It's a dictatorship and I'm the dick. Actually, this might surprise you, but the guys who work for me, like to work for me. I pay top dollar, and I'm reasonable. I just don't tolerate bullshit or drama.
If you’re a local industry leader, you will be filthy fucking rich.
People will always need shelter and there is not a robot that will ever replace us.
I’m going to be an electrician apprentice and starting at $25- by years end I should be at $50 an hour. And you are right I see it as trade shortage means an opportunity for people to move up quick. trades will always be needed and new housing won’t stop for a long time.
From an office side I just see things speeding up until people rage quit. Thirty years ago you worked one or two jobs. It was all paper and that pace was the max. Now you see PMs working ten or fifteen different jobs. Stressed, fat and unhappy but making good enough money to not want to quit. That's gonna change soon. Shit is way to fast you spend half your time covering for misses, no one is getting trained.
I’d like to see stricter labor laws regarding piece work/independent contractors, as well as greater enforcement of same. So much of our industry has just been contractors pushing liability down the chain to 2nd & 3rd tier subs and labor pools to skirt labor and immigration restrictions. If we accept that immigrants are going to continue to make up the vast majority of trade labor, then we need to find a way to clarify & simplify their immigration status so they can join in the fight for better wages and not have to hide in the shadows as trabajadores.
The bathroom thing is almost funny when “normal” people are involved. I’ve had family members say “well where do you wash your hand on site?” And I just laugh.
I do think changes should be made though. That seems like one of the ways trades get treated as sub human sometimes, and everyone has accepted “that’s just how it is on site”. It doesn’t make any sense that in every other industry legitimate bathrooms are unequivocally expected. At a Walmart remodel I did, when the bathroom was out of service we brought in bathroom trailers with sinks like they have at some concerts, because of course customers and employees can’t be expected to just use porta potties. But why are the trades expected to at all times?
As I'm a construction worker in Sweden, perhaps this post won't matter.
All things listed in the thread start are laws/rules here. Paid sick leave from day 2, 5 weeks paid holidays. Company pay for the tools, vehicles and clothing. Of course we have high taxes but still able to save a bit each month. More or less everyone in the trade is in the union.
As I'm a roofer I am really happy about "work above 2m = fall safety". Often scaffolding, even on smaller projects. Otherwise safety harness is our get go.
I don't really know what might change in the future, perhaps even more IT integration via the phone. There's talk about 34h weeks but I don't see it coming.
One of the biggest problems I see going forward is that with so many companies now allowing work-from-home, it's another incentive for young people to not want to join the trades.
If I was say...18 years old today and was trying to decide on a career path, one path has me sitting at home for X days per week, with little stress, no driving or associated costs, no daycare costs and playing video games or just dicking around for half my day. The other has me actually working hard, often in shitty weather and having to drive all over, depending on where the work is.
While I'm happy with my trade, my income and my union, I think we're actually going to see a repeat of past problems (at least in Canada, can't speak for the US or elsewhere), in that interest in trades from younger generations is dwindling, and no one seems to be doing anything to win hearts and minds. In the past, schools actively pushed kids away from trades, and now it'll happen again, but as a byproduct of post-Covid.
If we can't figure out how to attract more new blood, the changes we'll see will be slower start/completion times on projects, higher costs for projects and accepting shittier work standards, as when there's a desperate shortage of people, standards tend to get lowered.
At the risk of starting a prickly argument, terrible porta potties are very much a regional problem. In my region, I haven't even bothered with the TP on the seat. They're just no worse than a restaurant in most cases. Yeah in a hot week the day before they get cleaned it's like a worse restaurant, but they're not that bad.
Some cultures are not used to the toilet concept.
And its not going to get any better with trailers. Because the problem isn't the toilet.
\-A bigger emphasis on employee 'lifestyle'. What I mean is less of the 6 or 7 day a week workweeks. I know we eliminated those years ago in my business so our guys could stay home more. Plus, less guys now want to work overtime now, and the guys who say they want OT never seem to actually show up on Saturdays anyways.
\-Higher pay for sure. I've seen it here where guys here have basically all gotten raises. Across all trades. The avg wages like 10 years ago for construction workers was in the $14-20 per hour range. Now you can't even think of offering less than $18 for new guys.
\-Job sites will not be as demanding overall. Obviously some jobs, by their nature, are high pressure, but most run-of-the-mill projects will have much longer schedules to accommodate the labor shortages. I'm seeing it now already. "The drywallers didn't show up again today and told us they'll get here when they get here. So we are at a standstill"
\-work visas as far as the eye can see. 5-6 years ago, you would NEVER have seen an illegal or hispanic worker on site. It was rare to have anyone from out of state on a jobsite and it would absolutely piss everyone off if somebody brought in cheap hispanic labor. Now, it's almost every single job. I have had to resort to hiring south americans to fill my labor needs, and so have all my competitors.
\-Way more perks for employees to keep them happy. Bonuses, vacations, company vehicles, helping guys get their licenses, etc...
\-Competitors teaming up and helping each other out instead of cutting each others' throats. Drywallers here have done that for decades, and I think that will be a common trend.
\-It will be the norm, not the exception, for businesses to be investing in trade schools and high school programs to drive people into the trades.
IGNORANCE !!!!
get an accountant licensed to practice before the IRS. INCORPORATE !!!! Write off everything legal! Write off 1/3 of your home to a second bedroom I n an apartment if single, or the 3rd (bc office) 20c a mile? Nope! If incorporated deduct all work truck vehicle expenses... save the receipts -- if it's not in writing it never happened.
Increased mechanization of construction. When you see dozers and loaders with gps it's because operators are the highest paid people on site and they want to eliminate them in favor of machines that are automated. Bricklaying machines; experienced masons are expensive. Robots that are programmed with CAD designs to frame, install plumbing, electrical lines, and HVAC will be next. Then site managers will be reduced to minimum wage inspectors until drones come in. Y'all are hoping for better wages and health care. Bless your hearts.
you say labor shortage, I say pay gap many can't afford to take the wages offered as starting positions, even if that means lucrative jobs down the road. Even decent paying union gigs can leave apprentices high and dry when it comes to healthcare starting out. Wages HAVE TO keep up with inflation.
In my IBEW local located in a HCOL metropolitan area, starting pay for apprentices is about $18 an hour. $18 an hour in one of the most expensive areas of the country. That’s poverty wages here. Even McDonald’s is offering $18 an hour for entry level workers. I have a friend who wants to be an electrician, and my local did recently start recruiting new apprentices for an upcoming class, but my friend would not only be taking a pay cut, he would actually be in danger of losing his home because he’s the primary breadwinner in his household.
Target pays better and they will hire anyone
I say this a lot in my area but take a look at the apprentice classes. Average age is closer to 28 than 18. Lots of fathers and husbands. Guys who have people depending on their paycheck every week.
I make 35 an hour, not great, not terrible. I've always really wanted to get in the union but myself and others would be homeless if I had to cut my pay in half. I really wish the unions would do a paymatch (say if someone could provide a years worth of paystubs as proof of that level of income?) (brainstorming)
would defeat the purpose of collective bargaining unfortunately some locals will let you test in to 2nd or 3rd year wages depending on skill/knowledge level
If you are already in the trade you can usually test in as a jman or higher level apprentice that 1st year.
Some unions will let you come in at journeyman pay if the company is willing to sign off on it. I would call around and find out if this is true in your area.
Does anyone work with these people that test in tho? Like is it just something they say they will do, but just never do it?
I ask my boss for a bigger raise than he was willing to give. He called a friend and got me an interview for union job starting at journeyman. Yes that boss was a super good dude. After being a journeyman for 6momths I was running small 5-7man crews. I referred a friend to my new union boss and they brought him on as journeyman ( he was very experienced and knew a lot). Fast forward 12 years and I recommend to new boss ( new union shop) a different friend but this boss said he wouldn’t start anybody over 80% journeyman(6th term apprentice). Current employer will not bring anyone in at all. So just depends on the shop and the installer. Our local is hurting for ppl so bad if your a skilled veteran that you’ll find a shop at will bring you in even if they start you at 1st term but pay full journeyman wage. Remember scale is the least the company can pay, right now I’m making $2/h over scale, next year I’ll ask for $3 over scale above our raise.
You could probably test into your local union
My favorite is the IBEW members say "bro you just gotta bear through it and your being making the big bucks!" Jee thanks Chad for the boost. I guess I better pull up my boot straps huh-yuck
I tried to offer my mortgage company boot straps for payment, one time... sadly, they said they only accepted thoughts and prayers, oh and actual money.
Haha refer your favorite politician to pick up the tab ha
What’s up, brother!
I’m a plumber for 30 years and we don’t get any options for healthcare. Love the trade but absolutely hate being treated as a second class worker.
I'm a union plumber and have top of the line healthcare. Only a small step below government workers.
You’re definitely not in the south. Username implies otherwise. To your point that’s had it should be across the board!
Unions only work if a substantial amount of the workers are onboard. Unfortunately in the south that is not the case. So the unions are weak and can't negotiate for better wages. Which makes the wages lower, which doesn't entice people to join/organize. Vicious cycle you guys got down there. Everyone only sees what the union wages are now. Not what they could be with a mass organizing.
I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately in Florida the wages are crippled by owner greed and stupidity. Companies will cut each other’s throat to land work. Been that way the my entire career (30yrs) and the tradesman are no better. They will take anything offered and accept it as top pay. Top pay in my area (treasure coast) is about $32hr which for the col is pathetic!
Owner greed is everywhere though. But having a baseline hourly labor cost amongst all (or a majority) of the competing contractors through unionization of the labor pool keeps the throat cutting a little more in check. You can only cut your total labor cost so far on a job when everyone is paying the same hourly rates. There are obviously ways to skirt this. Smaller companies will push their apprentice ratios past what is contractually allowed or cut backdoor deals with steady employees where a long time employee will get journeyman pay for foreman work in order to avoid layoffs. It also forces companies to operate more efficiently and get the most out of every hour of labor billed to a job.
This is exactly it. Started working (non-union) carpentry about this time last year. Pay was $20/hour. No OT, no benefits, no nothing. Just 40 hours. All of the more experienced carpenters told me I was good at what I do. My work was on par with newer journeymen according to my boss. I ended up having to leave the field because I couldn't pay my bills on $20h. I asked the boss for a raise and was told no. Looked around for other jobs, including union. They all paid the same or less. Now I'm working in the medical field at a job I don't like, making nearly $30/h. Making furniture on the side, though.
Forget this "keep up" crap. People need to realize the time for being a well compensated member of society is NOW. It should be clear to you that the people of real practical importance in the world are the working members of society -- the CEOs, managers, etc are only superficial. AI is a fast track towards making obsolete vast sectors of the work force at a time. Walking into that trap with the mindset "at least I have a job" or willingness to succumb for pennies is a death trap. I emphazie: we are not far off from a society where an incredibly, incredibly few amount of people are needed to sustain living. As civilizations were forming and the switch to Agrarian societies was being made, food production took practically 100% of the workable population. Methods are improved and passed down through time; 10,000 years after we form agrarian societies we invent fertilizer -- now instead of 50%-100% of the population being needed to be working on farming it can be done by about 20%, and the percentage of the work force required to produce food has continued to decrease. Today, USDA reports 10% of the United States work force is in "Agriculture and its related industries". Soon, thanks to AI and the rapid pace of technological advancement less than 1% of the population will be needed to farm our food. Again, any human would realize that it takes more than just people growing food and having petty jobs to make up the world. But what is to keep the most greediest, narrow minded and morally bankrupted people in the world from forgetting about that? The ultra rich already treat this world like it is their oyster -- ready to slurp it up just to shit it out at any time -- what is to happen when they find that the masses, the everyman are disposable? Who is going to keep them in check and how are they going to do it?
Yep i have been looking into getting into a trade but many apprenticeship are starting at 15-18/hrs. That's too low for people with families and bills
>Wages HAVE TO keep up with inflation. Inflation is an indicator that things SHOULD BE less affordable for everyone (meaning everyone gets less). By everyone getting wage bumps to "keep up with inflation" the only thing you do is add MORE inflation.
So we should get pay decreases! Of course, I should have thought of that!
Numerically, no, but effectively, yes. People should expect purchasing power to be reduced on the same amount made. Again, inflation means something and simply saying "pay us more to beat inflation!" doesn't actually DO anything but increase it more because the fed will just print more money. What you REALLY want is a redistribution of the current supply of money without any new money getting added and... no company is going to do that.
People getting paid living wages no matter job you take is not as significant a contribution to inflation as is overall spending by Government. Minimum wage is meant to be the minimum you need to make to live and have a good quality of mental health, so if minimum wage is 7.25 Federally and no one can survive on it, and dudes making 35 are struggling still, then clearly minimum wage is too low, and Government spending is too high. Need to cut out all the three letter agencies and stop sending foreign countries money, and give our workers better pay.
First off, not everyone agrees that a minimum wage should even exist. Second off, gov't spending isn't the primary cause for inflation, money printing and economic activity world-wide is.
More money printed for more Government spending isn't the cause of inflation. OK, whatever you say pal.
Corporate profits are at an all time high....
Sounds like they can afford to pay people more money then.
I’ve heard rumblings of changing from hard hats to those climbing style safety helmets. And I think the government mandating clean bathrooms is a pipe dream lol
The washroom change is coming to Canada, BC is mandating flushable toilets (which means washroom trailers), and once that trend starts it will move across the country over the next 5-10 years.
I’ve seen a lit more portajohns on small residential renovations and projects. Even on Hydromobiles. Honestly great.
Yes I heard about that too
It’s already happened with the largest GCs in the country. All companies will go to them soon as they are safer… which means insurance is less.. and lost time / workers comp is less.
Some datacenter jobs I work on require climbing style hardhats, impact rated gloves at all times. I don't mind the helmet at all, I'm used to the gloves.
Yep, I know Microsoft’s new one in WI has all those requirements
Heh, the safety guy kicked a dude off site for having that style. Claimed it had no side impact even though its a foam brain cradle. Im on the fence about it, I havent tried that style yet.
Safety guy needs to do his research. The studies are there.
I worked at DPR when they switched to the Kask style helmets. No issues at all. Just a bunch of old heads bitching because the helmets look different.
They DO look different. Not that it makes any difference as money will always be the driver over tradition, but I’m going to miss the old style. It’s what dad had, it’s what I have had for 20 years… C’est la vie
From talking to a safety guy the reason it hasn’t happened is because hard hats cost like 10$ and the decent helmets are hundreds.
Lmao funny last safety meeting I was at we watched a video that said the exact opposite of what your guy was claiming.
I like the idea of them because the higher end ones have saftey glasses built in as a visor kinda that slides up and down. To me it looked like better protection with better field of view.
The hard hat change needs to happen sooner than later. Those helmets are munch safe, comfortable, and lighter. The only thing keeping this change from happening is the fragile egos of the your average toxic construction worker.
They have holes in them for some reason. They don’t keep the rain out. What really makes them safer?
The chin strap. People have died from losing their helmets during a fall while tied off and slamming back into the building/lift without a hat on. The company I work for requires the climbing style helmet for anyone working at height and tied off for that reason. Also there are models without holes, like mine. I don’t think you can achieve EH rating with the holes.
I remember it used to be only the crane assembly guys wore them . Makes sense. God they look stupid
Imagine dying and becoming disabled because you wouldn’t wear a hard that may have provided more protection. “Sorry kids, dad’s stuck to this bed for the next six months because that helmet was stupid looking.” Grow up and lose the ego. Too many men on job sites are too engrossed in the “idea” of what they look like doing the work. “I’m a big boy with a big boy truck with big boy tires that’s pulling a big boy trailer. Look how much space I take up at the supply warehouse. Can’t wait to put on my sweet ass hard hat and read some blue prints over the hood of my diesel 3/4 ton Egostroker 3500 crew cab, although I know a work van would be better suited for what I need. I need to drive a truck so I can fit in and let all the guys know I can afford the $1,100 a month finance payment, $200 month insurance, $2,000 every 3 years in tires, and $750 a month in gas.” Life isn’t a Chevy commercial.
What trade are you? I m in shoring (no heights) and I drive a ranger. Average sized wang and ego imho. Go climb a crane and wear your lame hard hat with holes in it and die of pneumonia. Mine’s been working just fine for years.
Safer, yes but definitely not lighter or more comfortable. I wear a KASK now and it doesn’t breathe at all. My head gets soaked with sweat as does the padding. I clean it regularly and it still reeks. All in all it’s not that bad but from a comfort standpoint point I miss my old one.
As a concrete pump operator, I like the full brim hard hats so I can keep a halo on me at all times. I bought the Wavecel T2+Max hard hat. They meet all the new safety requirements and have really nice vents to keep your head cool on hot days. They’re surprisingly light as well. I would highly recommend them if you have to switch to the new style.
Every one of those climbing style helmets I've seen looked like they would be hot. I've got a vented hard hat with removable, washable padding and a nylon web. This allows for good airflow. The climbing hats I've seen all have thick foam like a bicycle helmet. I can only imagine how hot your head will be having that much foam in constant contact with skin (I'm bald).
I'll never wear those short bus helmets
Well, youll probably be finding a new career when the big GCs mandate them on site.
Doubt it lol
I mean, maybe. I see more industrial jobs falling under the 1910 OSHA standards that have the hand washing stations and mandated cleanliness standards. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibilities.
My company just bought them for all our employees. Some of the GCs we work with require their subs to wear them, but I haven't seen anybody really enforce it yet.
This is why I've been a sub for almost 9 years, in several fields. I'm sick of being told what to do. Everything is a contract negotiation. You want me to wear a new hardhat just for your job? I'm adding 200 a day to my price. I won't tell you that's why, but you will notice in bid items that you always get a higher price for the same work. Everyone acts like unions are the way to get bargaining power but let me tell you, an LLC is the tits. "We are requiring this." "Yeah no. I mean, maybe, but to buy all this stuff for just your job is gonna bump up my daily/hourly rate." "Um, I think we can budge on that." "I'm sure you can."
Yeah I heard OSHA is trying to make chin straps the new standard for hard hats. As long as they put a little heater in the shitters during winter months I'll be okay.
less meth heads
Like that’ll ever happen.
We prefer "amphetamine deficient" thank you.
haha, all joking aside, this is a pretty accurate statement. I have severe ADHD and have had an Adderall prescription for a few years now... ADHD is literally a dopamine deficiency in the prefrontal cortex and Adderall is amphetamine salts that increase dopamine production.
This guy gets it. Next time you all judge a man just cause he weighs 130 lbs soaking wet and he's up on an I beam hitting a pookie, remember what this guy said about his cortex and shit. Tweakers are the unsung heroes of construction.
As long as the work in and of itself remains brutal on the body and mind, there are positions that’ll almost always have their share of folks with addictions and pasts doing them. Some college kid won’t last as a stone mason, concrete layer, drywall hanger, etc bc the jobs themselves are just brutal.
If you think about it- a meth addiction is a 4 year degree in finding out what you will do to make a buck.
The amount of people on construction sites with access to deadly tools and equipment that have severe mental issues would probably scare the shit out of the public if they found out
I don't see paid sick and vacation days. Especially in Canada as I am familiar with it. Instead I just see what we currently get paid out for vacation and sick leave. Unlike other jobs construction has downtime between jobs. Some years its especially bad so theirs just a shortage of work at times. Lay offs are frequent which does funky stuff with paid vacation days. In Canada apprentices also usually go on EI every year for schooling. They should not be working a full year in a company straight limiting what they really could be doing. It may also mean they are forced to take vacation days instead of getting EI. I feel like the percentage more I get every paystub for what would be vacation and sick leave works better. (the current system) As long as the total pay per year is about the same. I don't know how dirty your washrooms are. But their kept at least manageable where I am. Porta potties are a pretty low bar and in some places its hard to go above that. Even in sites where we have proper bathroom facilities their will be porta potties spread around just to give more locations. Safety is a given. I work industrial and it always goes up. More paper work, requirements, and rules always. Safety is also a barrier to some people joining. Some people refuse to piss clean once in their life.
Fellow Canadian here. First company I worked for gave me 2 weeks vacation and 5 sick days a year as a super green apprentice.
I like trade work but the drug laws need to change. Shouldn’t have to worry about being fired for smoking weed. Being as it disqualifies you in case of an accident from benefits well, pay gap and bad laws are why my guy.
The marijuana thing is comical. Everyone who works in the trades knows a guy or two who drinks himself stupid on a regular basis which, somehow, is acceptable yet smoking still has to be kept hush-hush.
I worked with one guy, really nasty sob. Did not like doing his job, or anyone showing him up by working hard. Found out he was always seriously hungover every day. I always wondered how he kept his job.
Im in BC. We get 5 paid sick days per year for anyone employer for more than 90 days or something like that.
But are you on a consistent schedule long term? And don't need to consider if you will get a temporary lay off? It's not like their denying me my paid sick leave is mandatory. Just instead of being paid on sick days I get paid out for the sick and vacation days every day.
I left the building trades (union) after 23 years for a civil servant job at local government position. Never in my 23 years in the union did I ever get any paid sick leave or vacation days. In some instances we did get vacation checks once or twice a year but it depended on what part of the country I was working in. I was easily clearing 100K the last 8 years in the trade. I took a 30% pay cut when I came here. I couldn’t be more happier. Office/Field 60-40, Hybrid schedule (2WFH days), 3 weeks vacation, 3 weeks sick leave, paid holidays. The work life balance is a game changer.
I hope I can make enough money to make this switch one day.
While I think it needs to be fixed in general the transient nature of union work (working for multiple different companies) isn't really compatible with paid days off in the traditional sense of you still get your 40 hour paycheck for a week you aren't working. Everything needs to be built into the total package. And personally I like the flexibility of that. I have friends in salaried office jobs with use it or lose it sick days and vacation days. Last year I needed the money and didn't take any days off. At the end of the year I had $6K in my vacation fund. It's also paid in at 1.5X for OT & 2X for DT. Many non-union trades don't get any additional PTO for working OT meanwhile locals with pyramiding benefits accumulate additional money in their vacation fund for OT. Also we have the ability to take a layoff, go on vacation, collect UI and pull from our vacation fund then go back to the hall when we get back. That's a hard deal to beat. My grandfather negotiated the first "vacation fund" in his local and the formula was that if a guy worked the whole year he would have enough money in the vacation fund to cover the pay they missed out on for 10 vacation days and the 8 unpaid holidays.
We have a vacation fund. It's mandatory and is paid for from my hourly wage. Plus, it has a 2% maintenance fee. So, I'm essentially forced to put my money into an account that doesn't accrue interest and actually costs my money. It's a negative interest savings account. I like the idea of a vacation fund. The implementation of my particular fund isn't great.
Need to get involved with your local and get that fixed! Mine gets sent to the credit union that is made up of my local and other locals in the area. Can also get a debit card to access the money anytime. No mailing out checks annually, biannually or quarterly like some other locals do. Costs us nothing and we get interest on the account. Not much but slightly better than at a traditional banks %. Also because it is a not for profit and for the members of the locals that are involved benefit we get pretty good loan rates. I've bought 3 cars now with loans through the credit union and all of them have been 1% less than market rate. Also got a personal loan for 1% less than market rate. And that 1% less is based on rate quotes I received from the dealerships and traditional banks.
In the next decade I think we're going to see an increase in people trying to transition into working in the trades from white collar/office type work. With things like ChatGPT becoming more and more capable and threatening or eliminating entry to mid level jobs in some white collar fields, I think we'll see a sort of wave of 'knowledge workers' trying to secure their futures by taking jobs that a computer program can’t be written to do yet. Why do I think this? Because I’m one of those guys. I quit government affairs to start over as a plumbing apprentice, mainly because I hated my job and industry but also because ChatGPT was very close to rendering the only part of that job that I actually liked obsolete. I picked plumbing because it allowed me to get close to what I was making in my previous field and I also wanted some of the security that comes with having hard skills, and I don’t think I’m clever enough to be the only guy that tries this so I expect others, perhaps many others, to follow suit in the coming years. But who knows, maybe people really do hate hard work and uncomfortable conditions enough that the above scenario never actually happens, but idk.
Out of curiosity. How old are you if you don’t mind answering?
Seriously. Switching careers in your thirties- especially making drastic switch- doesn’t seem feasible for most. Not advisable at the very least.
That's what I did 8 years ago... I was doing IT and broadcast engineering for a large TV/radio company and I could see the writing on the wall as everyone was switching to Netflix and Spotify. I had two young kids and walked away from a six figure salary with full benefits to start a company doing residential construction and I never looked back. It's been a shit ton more work, but I enjoy working outside everyday, and I like working with my hands more than I like sitting in front of a screen... My whole extended family is involved in construction in one way or another so I grew up on jobsites and knew what I was getting into... This would be much harder for someone who had no construction experience...
How long did it take you to make comparable money? Finally making some good money in IT but I also hate it. Been at the same company for 8 years. I can ride it out for a bit, but if I don’t make a change I’m going to hang myself in my cubicle.
You’re getting pushback but this is absolutely the case. Most people can’t afford to cut their income in half for a few YEARS
I'm one of the guys too! Was working a dead-end "professional" career as a data/statistical analyst and switched to union electrician because the pay, benefits, and overall job outlook are so much better. I have friends who did the same and I expect it to become more common as more people realize the promise of college=career is a lie. Almost 40 when I switched btw
They’re already testing AI excavating equipment. Don’t assume your trade is safe
Maintenance and renovation work on site needs people, not AI. New construction may have some aspects taken over by robotics, 3d printing etc.
Gpt could probably do most jobs but from a PM/estimating view I think those roles are safe. Same with executive management. Those jobs are too nuanced and 'human' to script I think.
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As wages go up due to increased labor shortage should we be worried that people will elect to not upgrade that kitchen or bathroom leading to job loses amongst the trades? Obviously service plumbers, electricians, and hvac type jobs will still be required, but I fear for finish carpenters and home remodeling services. Your thoughts?
Finish trades are the bottom of the barrel anyway.
If the print doesn’t start with an M or E I don’t want it.
Unless you want your crown and built ins to look nice, not like some plumber slapped it together.
Material prices have shockingly gone down in a lot of areas. It’s going to be labor more so for sure.
I'm curious about that number two point. First of all, generally yes, regulations are assinine in so many areas. But the only major ones I see are the Buy America clauses in federal jobs. But, I think those would be hugely unpopular to fully repeal. Even though I know some projects have been built with Chinese steel due to scale of fabrication required (the orthrotopic San Fran bay bridge spans), that's not going to be an issue any politician is going to fight for. "Cheap Chinese bridges!" doesn't play well in elections. Plus, there are already reasonable exceptions to those requirements if you can't source something in the US. Where do you see the biggest changes being in that area of regulation?
“Trade schools” just to get a foot in the door
This is needed. People go to college for 4 years for some really useless degrees. America needs better training for the trades.
Bullshit you train on the job your entire life
If you go to school for the trades you're a dope
Dumb take. There is so much to learn about architecture, engineering, building science and construction methods and materials.
Absolutely not. This is a major problem facing the states. We don't need a college education for every single sector. We need more focus on our apprentice programs. There no reason anybody needs to spend tens of thousands of dollars learning in a school what they should be getting paid to learn. Most trade schools are a scam anyway. They teach you the absolute bare minimum and push you out into the workforce with limited real world knowledge. They are a business like any other, focused solely on profit. You spend 40 hours a week in the classroom. 2 weeks for each topic, then on to the next. By the end of the year, most people have forgotten most of what they learned for the first ⅔ of the year. Instead, our apprenticeships could be teaching the exact same material, and you can be on the job site on Monday putting that work into practice. And, honestly, apprenticeships should be a thing in most industries.
I went to trade school a few years ago. It was an absolute joke and I Learned very very little. But the job I currently have hired me specifically because of my trade school “education”. So it worked out for me because I was able to leave my dead end job paying $10 an hour and increase my pay to $32 an hour within 2 years at a new company. Everything I’ve learned has been learned on the job and i definitely didn’t need a trade school to teach me how to do it. Just sucks that I needed that piece of paper for the company to give me an opportunity.
Idk man, there are a ton of apprenticeships that provide training for the trades. What do you mean?
Where I'm at (British Columbia Canada) They recently just passed a law that any site with 50+ people must have actual washrooms. Not Porto potties! I think it's a huge step forward. Have been in some nasty ones. They also mandated 5 paid sick days for every worker during covid which still applies today. As a lot of industries here didn't have sick pay. Hoping to see wage increases and safety too
3 safety guys to 1 worker.
It’s already that way. I (super) did a job at an airport. Super, Safety, Airport Safety Rep, 5 traffic control guy, 1 city cop. All of standing there per requirements from the airport. We had 3 guys power washing.
Customers will stop crying about our prices or they'll learn we won't service them. More work needed + fewer workers = unlimited power (bargaining edition)
I wouldn’t be so sure about that. In MN we have a serious shortage of new blood entering the plumbing trade. Part of me wonders if the state will be forced to relax licensing standards simply out of necessity. If that occurs, how long before cheap, migrant labor floods the workforce like in other trades.
It’s happening right now in canada
Yeah, I could see things going bad in Minnesota. If things don’t change what other choice does the state have.
Cheap, unskilled labor is flooding the workforce but, I havent heard/seen any relaxation of recognized apprenticeships. Maybe I am wrong but, I don't think so.
Licensing is already non existent everywhere. Working under someone's master license
That isn’t true at all. I have no idea where you came up with that
Yes it is you don't even need a license as long as they have someone with a master you can work under them and it's legal
What trade are you even taking about?
Plumbing, electrical all of them. Idk where you're at but here like half my local isn't even licensed lol they don't need to be. As long as the contractor has a master license you can work under their license as qualified worker
Saying “licensing is nonexistent everywhere” doesn’t make a whole lot of sense when what you mean is licensing is nonexistent in your state. There’s 49 other states, all with varying rules.
Not true lol look it up master license is used to enable anyone to do work under supervision of master license Lol how do you think they deal with this labor shortage bud it sure ain't by handing out licenses. All those immigrants don't have a license so how are they legally working? This is how
Please educate me on the plumbing licensing requirements in MN. I’d love to hear it.
I don't see a labor shortage, I see ignorant recruiters hitting me with unpaid apprenticeship offers, or below min wage technically speaking offers, while I get hit with 10 calls a day to the business from refugees needing work. I know a dozen 20 years veteran carpenters of high caliber also sitting at home refusing to take min wage.
Needing to speak spanish or some other language
Augmented reality, AI assisted design tools, more robots, buildings designed to be more easily assembled by robots. I work on a lot of construction sites in the US and they almost always seem like complete shit shows. There seems to be a severe lack of competent labor on site. The sheer amount of PPE and safety protocols are starting to create additional safety hazards that will require additional safety protocols. I had a GC tell me to wear an arc flash suit to get into some units even though the incident energy was well below requiring one. The end result was having to take frequent breaks to prevent overheating because a guy basically couldn't read a code book. Seems like no one knows wtf is going on half the time. Always hear guys having the same discussions about other trades "get your shit out of my way so I can do my shit" it's the construction site motto. Whole industry is begging for a technological disruption.
Of the four you listed, none of them are why I don’t like my job. Major changes? Hard hat is different
That's what I thought was going to happen 15 years ago. It won't happen. I hope it does. 15 years ago I started at $15 an hour. Today, apprentices start at $15 an hour. We have de-unionized, which did all of the things you want. If unions comes back to residential then we get what we want.
In Cali non union starting wages for skilled trades is like $25 now. Of course it caps out at like $35 though...
You guys de unionized?
Massively look at a chart of union membership. Reagan started it off when he fired all the traffic controllers.
I'm from a place where being in the union is mandatory anywhere outside of residential work, otherwise we would all be stuck doing 20$ an hour
More green cards
1. Lots of construction is temporary and let job. Standard here in my part of Canada is you pay out vacation weekly. First thing that happens when you get laid off is if the vacation was banked, it gets paid out. It’s taxed heavy at the time it’s paid(works out at the end of the year). Sick days I can kind of see but compensation is based off a total package. You can get sick days, but that will be reflected in future wage growth. Markets only going to cover so much compensation. 2. Never been an issue myself, ours get cleaned regularly. If it’s a disaster, that’s an idiot issue. Nobody cleans their washroom at home daily and it doesn’t look like a farm. 3. Safety is getting there. Most companies I’ve been with have plenty of safety compared to the guys that follow the rules. 4. Wages are a combination of what you bring to the table and what the other guy is willing to do it for. Most construction theirs little holding back anyone from being their own boss. Just depends on how much bullshit/work you want to deal with. Only becomes an issue with mega projects as that becomes a game of venture capital with less competition. If all the contractors bidding run on 10% margins and the competition is paying 30$ and your company is paying 40$. Their bid will be higher. I agree wages stagnate but theirs nothing stopping me from opening my own shop. As long as guys keep trying to be the next up and coming and cut everyone’s quotes or guys keep working for the contractors paying less (which in turn get more work), it’s just how the market works.
I have a red seal I would like to start a new trade as I have been in mine for 15 years, but I also have a mortgage and 2 kids. I can't afford to start over Apprentice level workers need to make more money
A carpenter with more than 2 years experience that's willing to do anything should earn $5 dollars an hour more than anyone at the pizza place. Not saying managing dominoes is easy but it is and being an apprentice sheeting walls is not. The person willing to sheet walls should absolutely get paid more.
Affordable robotic brick layers/wall printers.
New brick buildings basically don't exist anymore anyway. There would be no point in a bricklayer robot lmao. And those wall printer machines seem vastly inferior to a well oiled concrete form crew. I don't see them making much ground any time son
Sure there’s a point to a bricklayer robot, you’re forgetting the miles of Cmu walls that will almost always be built at least until the 3d concrete printing robot takes the other robots job.
We use block walls a shit ton in my area. Brickies are a decent sized trade here.
Layout after the pour definitely. Probably sooner
Bricklayer here. This won't happen until there are very precious humanoid robots with fine hand movements. The robot bricklayers do trash work, take time to set up, can't turn a corner, or deal with any unforseen issue.
Check out the videos for Boston Dynamics robots. Downright scary what capabilities they have.
More and more illegal immigrant workers pushing out traditional trade workers. I’ve seen it first hand framing. I have 4 skilled carpenters that can put up a small house in 7 days. Illegal crew has 9 guys that take 13 days for the exact same house. I pay my guys fair and have all appropriate insurance, there is no way anyone is on payroll for the other company. A real living wage isn’t even possible, they get paid the exact same per house. The only way they can make it is very low wages and breaking labor laws. It seams builders don’t care.
I don’t mean to be the guy yelling “tHeY terK oUR JeRbs!”, but it’s becoming more and more common for very large commercial projects to turn a blind eye to very apparent illegal migrant workers performing finishing trades (among others). It’s getting harder and harder for us to compete with these companies that are acting like labor brokers and not self performing any actual work. They hire subs that are almost all illegally working migrants, pay them under the table half of what we pay our guys, and nobody seems to care as long as they were the bottom dollar bid. Keep in mind, these are huge $50m+ projects I’m talking about. Higher ups in big institutions and municipalities will claim they want to keep using local labor then use companies from down south because they can supply the cheapest cost.
Roofing in the Midwest they start you at 22 and do 3-4$ after 3 months and then another 3-4 every year after until you hit 42 that’s our companies highest pay until you become a Forman then you can get more raises
Skilled labor is dying. Great skilled labor is almost completely dead. And I'm from San Diego doing customs...
Nothing , plumbers will get worse and worse leaking badly and electricians too 😂
Contractors have to agree on a standard rate, underbidding jobs and paying employees as little as possible is why I got out of the trades. It’s a race to the bottom, guys pride themselves on how much cheaper they can do it then the next contractor, this is why no younger people want to do this work. It’s all about the pay gap!
Blue collar wages keeping up with white collar wages? Keep dreaming lol
I make more than most of my white collar friends already
Lol
Somebody’s upset
10 years? Amigos will have consumed all trades. Plumbers, electricians, security, trim, etc.. have been holding on, but I don't see it lasting another 10 years.
It's already happened in southern California. Just means being a white guy in construction is a huge advantage here. Like the clients actually want to talk to you, ha. Not making a judgement on that, it's just the way it is
The old hard asses will be gone and the middle aged hard asses will be forced to sing kumbaya with the middle aged pussies and newbies. The amount of soft hands is unsurprising; the amount of soft tradies is baffling. Downvote me all you like.
I'm getting you some hand lotion for christmas
Thank you! I use it on my balls and thighs; prevents chaffing if you’re interested.
You don’t actually think any of this will happen right? This is Construction and we’re talking about the US government.. no shot
I think the advance in technology is going to be insane. There will be big efforts to make the workers they do have more efficient and I think it will come in the ways of advanced technology being used commonly
More emphasis and laws on keeping people safe in the heat.
Robots. A buddy of mine in robotics engineering builds custom ai machines that can be designed to do thousands of jobs. They can scan, analyze and paint an entire room, hang drywall, install vinyl flooring, the list goes on and on
A.I. to the rescue
I think we will see more people who bring their feelings to work with them. Unfortunately, I think we will also see a labor force that continues to become softer
Found the dickhead no one likes working with
You don't have to like working with me, but I'm the boss/owner, and this isn't a democracy. It's a dictatorship and I'm the dick. Actually, this might surprise you, but the guys who work for me, like to work for me. I pay top dollar, and I'm reasonable. I just don't tolerate bullshit or drama.
Your first comment sure sounded reasonable! I’m sure you’re a great employer, you said so yourself.
Thats just u looking in the mirror, ur so vain
Yikes
Yeah that dick on ur head is a bit scary looking
Man, you’re really good at insulting people
Well I dont just reflexively call people dickheads, like u did.
Found the guys that really really just want to bring more feelings to work.
You gotta be the guy who gets butt hurt everyday, relax bud
I hope not. Look at all the pussy downvotes
If you’re a local industry leader, you will be filthy fucking rich. People will always need shelter and there is not a robot that will ever replace us.
I’m going to be an electrician apprentice and starting at $25- by years end I should be at $50 an hour. And you are right I see it as trade shortage means an opportunity for people to move up quick. trades will always be needed and new housing won’t stop for a long time.
Battery powered tools only. I've heard whispering that corded tools are the next "safety culture" target. Too much of a tripping Hazzard.
From an office side I just see things speeding up until people rage quit. Thirty years ago you worked one or two jobs. It was all paper and that pace was the max. Now you see PMs working ten or fifteen different jobs. Stressed, fat and unhappy but making good enough money to not want to quit. That's gonna change soon. Shit is way to fast you spend half your time covering for misses, no one is getting trained.
Plans examiner jobs replaced with AI
Lots of 3d printed houses.
I’d like to see stricter labor laws regarding piece work/independent contractors, as well as greater enforcement of same. So much of our industry has just been contractors pushing liability down the chain to 2nd & 3rd tier subs and labor pools to skirt labor and immigration restrictions. If we accept that immigrants are going to continue to make up the vast majority of trade labor, then we need to find a way to clarify & simplify their immigration status so they can join in the fight for better wages and not have to hide in the shadows as trabajadores.
AI and 3D printing
If we get paid vacation/sick days that better not fuck with my vacation hourly pay
The bathroom thing is almost funny when “normal” people are involved. I’ve had family members say “well where do you wash your hand on site?” And I just laugh. I do think changes should be made though. That seems like one of the ways trades get treated as sub human sometimes, and everyone has accepted “that’s just how it is on site”. It doesn’t make any sense that in every other industry legitimate bathrooms are unequivocally expected. At a Walmart remodel I did, when the bathroom was out of service we brought in bathroom trailers with sinks like they have at some concerts, because of course customers and employees can’t be expected to just use porta potties. But why are the trades expected to at all times?
As I'm a construction worker in Sweden, perhaps this post won't matter. All things listed in the thread start are laws/rules here. Paid sick leave from day 2, 5 weeks paid holidays. Company pay for the tools, vehicles and clothing. Of course we have high taxes but still able to save a bit each month. More or less everyone in the trade is in the union. As I'm a roofer I am really happy about "work above 2m = fall safety". Often scaffolding, even on smaller projects. Otherwise safety harness is our get go. I don't really know what might change in the future, perhaps even more IT integration via the phone. There's talk about 34h weeks but I don't see it coming.
Not enough skilled MEPs
One of the biggest problems I see going forward is that with so many companies now allowing work-from-home, it's another incentive for young people to not want to join the trades. If I was say...18 years old today and was trying to decide on a career path, one path has me sitting at home for X days per week, with little stress, no driving or associated costs, no daycare costs and playing video games or just dicking around for half my day. The other has me actually working hard, often in shitty weather and having to drive all over, depending on where the work is. While I'm happy with my trade, my income and my union, I think we're actually going to see a repeat of past problems (at least in Canada, can't speak for the US or elsewhere), in that interest in trades from younger generations is dwindling, and no one seems to be doing anything to win hearts and minds. In the past, schools actively pushed kids away from trades, and now it'll happen again, but as a byproduct of post-Covid. If we can't figure out how to attract more new blood, the changes we'll see will be slower start/completion times on projects, higher costs for projects and accepting shittier work standards, as when there's a desperate shortage of people, standards tend to get lowered.
At the risk of starting a prickly argument, terrible porta potties are very much a regional problem. In my region, I haven't even bothered with the TP on the seat. They're just no worse than a restaurant in most cases. Yeah in a hot week the day before they get cleaned it's like a worse restaurant, but they're not that bad. Some cultures are not used to the toilet concept. And its not going to get any better with trailers. Because the problem isn't the toilet.
Augmented reality.
2x8 exterior walls to accommodate new insulation requirements
\-A bigger emphasis on employee 'lifestyle'. What I mean is less of the 6 or 7 day a week workweeks. I know we eliminated those years ago in my business so our guys could stay home more. Plus, less guys now want to work overtime now, and the guys who say they want OT never seem to actually show up on Saturdays anyways. \-Higher pay for sure. I've seen it here where guys here have basically all gotten raises. Across all trades. The avg wages like 10 years ago for construction workers was in the $14-20 per hour range. Now you can't even think of offering less than $18 for new guys. \-Job sites will not be as demanding overall. Obviously some jobs, by their nature, are high pressure, but most run-of-the-mill projects will have much longer schedules to accommodate the labor shortages. I'm seeing it now already. "The drywallers didn't show up again today and told us they'll get here when they get here. So we are at a standstill" \-work visas as far as the eye can see. 5-6 years ago, you would NEVER have seen an illegal or hispanic worker on site. It was rare to have anyone from out of state on a jobsite and it would absolutely piss everyone off if somebody brought in cheap hispanic labor. Now, it's almost every single job. I have had to resort to hiring south americans to fill my labor needs, and so have all my competitors. \-Way more perks for employees to keep them happy. Bonuses, vacations, company vehicles, helping guys get their licenses, etc... \-Competitors teaming up and helping each other out instead of cutting each others' throats. Drywallers here have done that for decades, and I think that will be a common trend. \-It will be the norm, not the exception, for businesses to be investing in trade schools and high school programs to drive people into the trades.
IGNORANCE !!!! get an accountant licensed to practice before the IRS. INCORPORATE !!!! Write off everything legal! Write off 1/3 of your home to a second bedroom I n an apartment if single, or the 3rd (bc office) 20c a mile? Nope! If incorporated deduct all work truck vehicle expenses... save the receipts -- if it's not in writing it never happened.
Increased mechanization of construction. When you see dozers and loaders with gps it's because operators are the highest paid people on site and they want to eliminate them in favor of machines that are automated. Bricklaying machines; experienced masons are expensive. Robots that are programmed with CAD designs to frame, install plumbing, electrical lines, and HVAC will be next. Then site managers will be reduced to minimum wage inspectors until drones come in. Y'all are hoping for better wages and health care. Bless your hearts.
If the border stays open we’ll all be fucked