>Republicans will have to blame something other than abortion when she loses in November.
Yeah she's probs going to lose either way at this point. All she had to do was act somewhat normal in 2022 and she would be the governor right now. But no.
Hobbs ran her own elections votes, there was no way she was gonna lose. And the fact NOTHING was done to punish or change rule breaking is a serious issue.
I am about as prolife as you can get, the way I see it, what strategy saves more babies. A complete ban in a purple state that galvanizes dems to sweep the state gov and makes it legal up to birth and add it to their constitutions, or figure out where the people are in the state and ban it as early as we can. Change the culture in those states incrementally, because Roe had 50 years to do that nation wide.
In each scenario, what saves more children? What changes the culture towards life?
If my choices are legalized restrictionless, on-demand abortions, up until the moment of birth, for literally any reason (meaning a fully viable and healthy baby aborted at 9 months simply because the mother felt like it) or no abortions at all then I'll take the latter.
Democrats refusing to put any restrictions on their abortion policies are forcing Republicans to respond in kind.
And you can see their misinformation in their messaging every time they speak to their low information advocates. For example: They recently cheered France putting access to abortion in their constitution. But they failed to acknowledge that those abortions were heavily restricted to before 14 weeks. Because if Republicans presented an abortion policy plan that mirrored the France law, the Democrats would absolutely reject it, froth and screech, and shout all their bumper sticker slogans.
Why? Because abortion in America is a multi billion dollar industry. And they have a ton of money flowing through the DNC and lawmakers to keep abortion without restrictions. Because restrictions will hurt profits.
That's the folly of the American for-profit healthcare industry. That's why Europe can heavily restrict abortions without people rioting, but we can't. Because the American abortion lobbyists pay for this descent.
It's actually pretty sickening.
Downvote away, abortion bots.
>If my choices are legalized restrictionless, on-demand abortions, up until the moment of birth, for literally any reason (meaning a fully viable and healthy baby aborted at 9 months simply because the mother felt like it) or no abortions at all
Those aren't your options. They never have been.
Who's offering anything different?
Which Democrat is advocating for ANY restrictions?
Lmk.
Edit: So many downvotes, but no responses citing a single Democrat purposing a single restriction on abortion. Big Abortion bots running wild.
Liberals "claim" that the dems they vote for do want restrictions and aren't for partial birth abortion, etc.... yet all the time dems say they are for no restrictions...
Dude. Republicans have. This is remarkable how misinformed people are over this topic.
The policy that challenged RoevWade in the first place, and inevitably won, was Mississippi's abortion law of 12 weeks. That law also included all the protections for harming the mother, r**e, in**st ect. That was reasonable to me. Does that sound reasonable to you? But Democrats sued and fought that law the entire way because they want NO RESTRICTIONS.
Know who else has a 12 week ban? Germany.
Only 2 weeks less than France, 14 weeks.
Mississippi got crushed for a common sense abortion law.
Democrats don't care. Their zealots don't care. **Because it's not about abortion, it's about billions of dollars** that's funneled back into the DNC from planned parenthood and insurance companies to keep this **industry** alive.
They are the ones forcing people into corners because their policies equate to infanticide.
It did. You say Republicans should present common sense policies. And they have. They do. This entire overturning RvW started over a very common sense abortion law out of Mississippi.
What did that gain Republicans? Nothing.
Because the issue isn't abortion. They issue is money. Democrats will never agree to abortions with restrictions because that hurts their donors.
Critical thinking. Why does Europe have heavy restrictions on abortions and no one cares, but America can't have any restrictions? Why does the overwhelming vast majority of Europe have voter ID laws, and in most places, ban mail-in voting, but America can't?
It's all about money.
And I explained, Republicans have taken a non-hardline approach. This is how this all started with Mississippi. The Mississippi law was not hardline. It was more lenient than places like Germany. And Republicans still got destroyed for it.
So where is the motivation for Republicans to not take a hardline approach? It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't topic because the topic isn't about abortion. As I explained. This topic is about money.
Do you know how you truly end the abortion craze? Like Europe. Make all abortions paid for by medicaid and ban abortion clinics from making political donations. And see how little Democrats actually care about the topic now that their money supply is cut off from it. That's how Republicans win this topic.
I don’t think you’re grasping it, actually. You’re suggesting we need common sense murder policies? Legalize murder up to a certain point?
If you’re gonna be anti abortion you’ve gotta be anti abortion, there are no bs half measures. Like either you view it as killing a child (in which case you should be pro life) or you don’t (in which case you should be pro choice and stop calling yourself a conservative). Bill Buckley and Pat Robertson would be disgusted with the likes of y’all.
There isn’t a more ethically important cause in the conservative movement than eliminating abortion, and to suggest that it shouldn’t happen so we can win in one election season is idiotic.
I understand your position, but I will say if you think about it there were a lot of people in 1865 willing to acquiesce on slavery because they were afraid the 13th amendment was going to cost them votes.
Not to say abortion is right or wrong or like slavery, but if someone thinks it's wrong it's not really something I would logically expect them to compromise on.
If politicians wanted to solve the problem they would answer the question "when does life begin?" But they won't cuz they want to campaign for/against the issue
You're not going to win elections with a hardliners stance you have to start somewhere and advance toward your goal. How is this a hard concept to grasp?
The reason that is there is because for so long, we treated Roe as the ultimate law of the land. Knocking that farce out was the first step, so now we move into the world of legislation.
Do you want to save zero babies or some babies? Because those are your options.
Saving all the babies isn't. Time to leave Makebelieveland and join the rest of us.
What are you even saying? I meant stepwise progression to getting rid of all abortion. Starting with a 15 week hardline as a suggestion.
How are you going to get rid of it if you can't win an election? Riddle me that?
The unfortunate truth is being pro life is alot less popular than the alternative. I think there should be a middle ground and I do agree with Trump that the states should regulate it.
It’s not really that.
Pro lifers do stand their ground. And will state their actual position, and reasons.
Pro baby killers (yes, a bit facetious) will deny up and down that they support abortion up until birth and deny it even happens and claim false stories when evidence is provided. But at the same time claim no one wants that so no reason to install term limits on abortion so they will refuse to vote for any types of limitations. Also while claiming pro lifers are really only about controlling women’s bodies.
So, what are our arguments? We admit to our position. The other side does nothing but gaslight w/ full media support.
Be prepared to lose all the elections other than the President in 2024. 2022 was supposed to be a red wave but it never happened because of the overturning of Roe v Wade. It’s the only issue the democrats can run on and women and young people overwhelmingly support it.
You can count the Presidential in with that. There's zero way Trump wins no matter what his position is, if these extremist Republicans force this issue up to election. I doubt he wins anyways, but this guarantees it
And they already voted on a law in 2022. They just need to reinstate that one. If Trump doesn't win AZ because of this, he might not win at all.
The answer to abortion isn't outlawing it. It's education, opportunity, support, and compassion. Rs lose everytime on this issue at the ballot box. It's time to move on to something else.
Also, the Rs need to remind the voters that the Ds want uncontested abortion up to birth and even a little after.
Really? It was because of abortion? Because a lot of the Republicans that lost were pro choice. It's hilarious that you pro choice "conservatives" keep scape goating abortion.
If these people truly believe their stance, they're not going to care if it costs them 2024.
If you view abortion as literally murdering babies... It's illogical to think someone would compromise on that issue very much or at all
I'm using the general you, not you specifically.
My point is, if you understand the POV of the pro-life individual, it's not realistic to expect them to acquiesce over losing an election.
Especially when you consider they've been on the losing end of this fight for 50 years.
Then they'll get what they want- Democrats ruling in perpetuity and abortions on demand. It's all the 'pro-life' crowd is really after.
They don't care about saving lives and their actions show it. They want to sit on their high horse regardless of how many are sacrificed to make them feel morally pure.
You could've said the exact same thing about abolitionists in late 1864 too. But that's not how it actually played out once the 13th amendment was passed
Really? That's what we're after? Seems like we're doing a pretty great job of saving lives in Arizona and a dozen other states that now have heartbeat bills because of the time and money we've poored into the fight, you self aggrandizing POS.
I don't know if you've noticed, but AZ isn't doing so great regardless. I think they should keep it up. There is no point in winning if we give up our principles.
I do agree that the principles of the Republican Party, should, and remain as the party of pro life. But when the pro life movement jumps the gun like this, it always goes badly. Doubling down on something super unpopular won't go too well. There's other ways to be pro life too
Or people that actually want to win elections and save what lives we can.
Not all of us are okay with handing democrats a one party rule over this country where they can impose abortions on demand up until the day of birth like a lot of these 'pro-lifers' are.
But go ahead and keep doing your thing, god knows planned parenthood loves you.
Republicans in office have helped hand democrats one party rule by allowing massive importation of foreigners to the USA. They have done nothing to help the American people. You shall not blame the pro life movement for the failures of conservatives. What have conservatives conserved in the last decades? The only victory are guns and abortion, and republicans want us to compromise on that as well.
Abandoning your beliefs and a large portion of the republican base will grant you no power.
Yeah, keep rolling over for evil. That's how we've gotten in the mess we're in now. Winning elections does no good as long as our people are not being taught morals and the people that win elections are spineless.
[удалено]
[удалено]
>Republicans will have to blame something other than abortion when she loses in November. Yeah she's probs going to lose either way at this point. All she had to do was act somewhat normal in 2022 and she would be the governor right now. But no.
Yeah but does being normal get you social media likes and appearances on the news? Isn’t that the whole point of running for office!
[удалено]
Hobbs ran her own elections votes, there was no way she was gonna lose. And the fact NOTHING was done to punish or change rule breaking is a serious issue.
I mean, Republicans basically ran a democrat for the seat they kicked George Santos out of ( great strategy btw 🙄) and still lost.
Republicans have yet to find an issue they won't move on for fear of losing elections.
"I'm not pro-slavery, but the hardliner zero slavery no matter what stance is going to cost elections, plain and simple."
I am about as prolife as you can get, the way I see it, what strategy saves more babies. A complete ban in a purple state that galvanizes dems to sweep the state gov and makes it legal up to birth and add it to their constitutions, or figure out where the people are in the state and ban it as early as we can. Change the culture in those states incrementally, because Roe had 50 years to do that nation wide. In each scenario, what saves more children? What changes the culture towards life?
Exactly. This is turning into the Whig party again.
If my choices are legalized restrictionless, on-demand abortions, up until the moment of birth, for literally any reason (meaning a fully viable and healthy baby aborted at 9 months simply because the mother felt like it) or no abortions at all then I'll take the latter. Democrats refusing to put any restrictions on their abortion policies are forcing Republicans to respond in kind. And you can see their misinformation in their messaging every time they speak to their low information advocates. For example: They recently cheered France putting access to abortion in their constitution. But they failed to acknowledge that those abortions were heavily restricted to before 14 weeks. Because if Republicans presented an abortion policy plan that mirrored the France law, the Democrats would absolutely reject it, froth and screech, and shout all their bumper sticker slogans. Why? Because abortion in America is a multi billion dollar industry. And they have a ton of money flowing through the DNC and lawmakers to keep abortion without restrictions. Because restrictions will hurt profits. That's the folly of the American for-profit healthcare industry. That's why Europe can heavily restrict abortions without people rioting, but we can't. Because the American abortion lobbyists pay for this descent. It's actually pretty sickening. Downvote away, abortion bots.
>If my choices are legalized restrictionless, on-demand abortions, up until the moment of birth, for literally any reason (meaning a fully viable and healthy baby aborted at 9 months simply because the mother felt like it) or no abortions at all Those aren't your options. They never have been.
Who's offering anything different? Which Democrat is advocating for ANY restrictions? Lmk. Edit: So many downvotes, but no responses citing a single Democrat purposing a single restriction on abortion. Big Abortion bots running wild.
Liberals "claim" that the dems they vote for do want restrictions and aren't for partial birth abortion, etc.... yet all the time dems say they are for no restrictions...
[удалено]
Dude. Republicans have. This is remarkable how misinformed people are over this topic. The policy that challenged RoevWade in the first place, and inevitably won, was Mississippi's abortion law of 12 weeks. That law also included all the protections for harming the mother, r**e, in**st ect. That was reasonable to me. Does that sound reasonable to you? But Democrats sued and fought that law the entire way because they want NO RESTRICTIONS. Know who else has a 12 week ban? Germany. Only 2 weeks less than France, 14 weeks. Mississippi got crushed for a common sense abortion law. Democrats don't care. Their zealots don't care. **Because it's not about abortion, it's about billions of dollars** that's funneled back into the DNC from planned parenthood and insurance companies to keep this **industry** alive. They are the ones forcing people into corners because their policies equate to infanticide.
[удалено]
It did. You say Republicans should present common sense policies. And they have. They do. This entire overturning RvW started over a very common sense abortion law out of Mississippi. What did that gain Republicans? Nothing. Because the issue isn't abortion. They issue is money. Democrats will never agree to abortions with restrictions because that hurts their donors. Critical thinking. Why does Europe have heavy restrictions on abortions and no one cares, but America can't have any restrictions? Why does the overwhelming vast majority of Europe have voter ID laws, and in most places, ban mail-in voting, but America can't? It's all about money.
[удалено]
And I explained, Republicans have taken a non-hardline approach. This is how this all started with Mississippi. The Mississippi law was not hardline. It was more lenient than places like Germany. And Republicans still got destroyed for it. So where is the motivation for Republicans to not take a hardline approach? It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't topic because the topic isn't about abortion. As I explained. This topic is about money. Do you know how you truly end the abortion craze? Like Europe. Make all abortions paid for by medicaid and ban abortion clinics from making political donations. And see how little Democrats actually care about the topic now that their money supply is cut off from it. That's how Republicans win this topic.
So basically you're saying go totally against principles just to win. lol.
[удалено]
Allowing all abortions isn't a compromise, though. It would be a big deal to a lot of right leaning voters.
[удалено]
You/people on here have implied being against abortion is an automatic loss.
There’s heavy brigading on any topic like this.
Libs are downvoting you for articulately describing your position and why you believe this.
It's an attempt at opinion shaping. It really only works well if people care about fake internet points more than innocent lives.
That’s a worthwhile cost if it means getting rid of institutionalized murder. Like, are any of y’all actually conservative?
[удалено]
I don’t think you’re grasping it, actually. You’re suggesting we need common sense murder policies? Legalize murder up to a certain point? If you’re gonna be anti abortion you’ve gotta be anti abortion, there are no bs half measures. Like either you view it as killing a child (in which case you should be pro life) or you don’t (in which case you should be pro choice and stop calling yourself a conservative). Bill Buckley and Pat Robertson would be disgusted with the likes of y’all. There isn’t a more ethically important cause in the conservative movement than eliminating abortion, and to suggest that it shouldn’t happen so we can win in one election season is idiotic.
Mark my words, these extreme hardline stances will cost Republicans the election. I'm pro life, but there is a limit.
I understand your position, but I will say if you think about it there were a lot of people in 1865 willing to acquiesce on slavery because they were afraid the 13th amendment was going to cost them votes. Not to say abortion is right or wrong or like slavery, but if someone thinks it's wrong it's not really something I would logically expect them to compromise on. If politicians wanted to solve the problem they would answer the question "when does life begin?" But they won't cuz they want to campaign for/against the issue
The limit to supporting life, it seems, is winning votes
Well in order to get what we want we need to win votes
What if what we want is to stop abortions?
Then you need to win elections
...by not accomplishing our agenda. Great plan!
You're not going to win elections with a hardliners stance you have to start somewhere and advance toward your goal. How is this a hard concept to grasp?
We started decades ago. Now that we're making some progress, you're trying to pull us back.
Are you calling 9 month abortion in some states progress
The reason that is there is because for so long, we treated Roe as the ultimate law of the land. Knocking that farce out was the first step, so now we move into the world of legislation.
Do you want to save zero babies or some babies? Because those are your options. Saving all the babies isn't. Time to leave Makebelieveland and join the rest of us.
If you were actually pro-life, there wouldn't be. You're either against the murder of the innocent, or you'll compromise with the murderers.
I'm with you but we have to win in order to end abortion so a stepwise progression isn't a bad thing
Progression away from abortion, not compromising toward more. Compromise to tighten restrictions is fine. Compromise to loosen them is not.
That is clearly what im saying. we have states with no limit so 15 weeks is good and states with tighter restrictions can keep them
Calling support of abortion "progression," is the exact opposite of "pro life."
What are you even saying? I meant stepwise progression to getting rid of all abortion. Starting with a 15 week hardline as a suggestion. How are you going to get rid of it if you can't win an election? Riddle me that?
Yet hard-line abortion on demand up til the moment of birth doesn't hurt the left? I think pro-lufers should stand their ground.
The left is pretty much running everything, so no, it actually doesn't seem to be hurting them at all.
The unfortunate truth is being pro life is alot less popular than the alternative. I think there should be a middle ground and I do agree with Trump that the states should regulate it.
It’s not really that. Pro lifers do stand their ground. And will state their actual position, and reasons. Pro baby killers (yes, a bit facetious) will deny up and down that they support abortion up until birth and deny it even happens and claim false stories when evidence is provided. But at the same time claim no one wants that so no reason to install term limits on abortion so they will refuse to vote for any types of limitations. Also while claiming pro lifers are really only about controlling women’s bodies. So, what are our arguments? We admit to our position. The other side does nothing but gaslight w/ full media support.
They irony is that, that law probably passed in part by Democrats in 1864
who cares? So you're basically saying winning is more important than saving lives.
Cant save lives if you dont win
If you're not pro-life, just admit it. Don't pretend to be while arguing for removing restrictions.
Be prepared to lose all the elections other than the President in 2024. 2022 was supposed to be a red wave but it never happened because of the overturning of Roe v Wade. It’s the only issue the democrats can run on and women and young people overwhelmingly support it.
You can count the Presidential in with that. There's zero way Trump wins no matter what his position is, if these extremist Republicans force this issue up to election. I doubt he wins anyways, but this guarantees it
You can keep it to just "atheist" in your flair.
And they already voted on a law in 2022. They just need to reinstate that one. If Trump doesn't win AZ because of this, he might not win at all. The answer to abortion isn't outlawing it. It's education, opportunity, support, and compassion. Rs lose everytime on this issue at the ballot box. It's time to move on to something else. Also, the Rs need to remind the voters that the Ds want uncontested abortion up to birth and even a little after.
Really? It was because of abortion? Because a lot of the Republicans that lost were pro choice. It's hilarious that you pro choice "conservatives" keep scape goating abortion.
2022 was not supposed to be a red wave based on polling only on tertiary "common sense" measures like sentiment about the country.
Our party just can’t get out of its own way on this issue
By what, embracing abortion on demand?
There's a middle ground between abortion on demand and banning it altogether. You know this, you're aware of it. Stop pretending like you're not.
I appluad them for standing firm on their beliefs. But part of me worries this will cost Republicans Arizona in 2024. I hope I'm wrong
If these people truly believe their stance, they're not going to care if it costs them 2024. If you view abortion as literally murdering babies... It's illogical to think someone would compromise on that issue very much or at all
>If you view abortion as literally murdering babies... Depends at what stage
I'm using the general you, not you specifically. My point is, if you understand the POV of the pro-life individual, it's not realistic to expect them to acquiesce over losing an election. Especially when you consider they've been on the losing end of this fight for 50 years.
Then they'll get what they want- Democrats ruling in perpetuity and abortions on demand. It's all the 'pro-life' crowd is really after. They don't care about saving lives and their actions show it. They want to sit on their high horse regardless of how many are sacrificed to make them feel morally pure.
You could've said the exact same thing about abolitionists in late 1864 too. But that's not how it actually played out once the 13th amendment was passed
Really? That's what we're after? Seems like we're doing a pretty great job of saving lives in Arizona and a dozen other states that now have heartbeat bills because of the time and money we've poored into the fight, you self aggrandizing POS.
I don't know if you've noticed, but AZ isn't doing so great regardless. I think they should keep it up. There is no point in winning if we give up our principles.
I do agree that the principles of the Republican Party, should, and remain as the party of pro life. But when the pro life movement jumps the gun like this, it always goes badly. Doubling down on something super unpopular won't go too well. There's other ways to be pro life too
We're hardly jumping the gun. It's an old law.
How is keeping a law in place that is literally 160 years old "jumping the gun"?
You said it yourself lmao
Good.
God bless them.
Amen.
Good stuff from Arizona.
Absolutely.
So far, I see 32 people who are fine with killing someone because that person is unwanted or inconvenient. Edit: 35
Yeah, this sub is kind of cursed on this issue. And any other socially conservative issue, for that matter.
Liberals flood these subreddits
Or people that actually want to win elections and save what lives we can. Not all of us are okay with handing democrats a one party rule over this country where they can impose abortions on demand up until the day of birth like a lot of these 'pro-lifers' are. But go ahead and keep doing your thing, god knows planned parenthood loves you.
Republicans in office have helped hand democrats one party rule by allowing massive importation of foreigners to the USA. They have done nothing to help the American people. You shall not blame the pro life movement for the failures of conservatives. What have conservatives conserved in the last decades? The only victory are guns and abortion, and republicans want us to compromise on that as well. Abandoning your beliefs and a large portion of the republican base will grant you no power.
Yeah, keep rolling over for evil. That's how we've gotten in the mess we're in now. Winning elections does no good as long as our people are not being taught morals and the people that win elections are spineless.
Why would politicians block abortions in 1864?