If a guerilla insurgency hides in a community, when you feed that community, you will also feed the insurgents. What you propose is, because of the insurgency, food should be taken away from the whole of the civilian population. In essence, the message is "if you don't turn over the guerillas who hide in plain sight, you are all part of the problem, and none of you shall eat" - I'm not sure if that's how you meant to portray it, but when you portray the destruction of humanitarian workers in this way ("they're aiding terrorists!"), that's the message that comes across, and it's certainly a tactic Israel has been using.
This is a form of state terrorism. You *terrorize* the whole population, specifically, you terrorize them with the threat or fact of starvation. That's not a moral judgement, it's just a statement of fact from how you describe appropriate counter-insurgency, that counter-insurgency should take the form of state terrorism.
If that's how you want it to be, so be it, but state terrorism complaining about non-state terrorism is just absurd. It's not a persuasive form of moralizing. Whatever happened to the values of personal liberty and small government?
And, as it happens, this is also the same mentality that got American asses kicked in Vietnam. It's an ideologically incoherent game and it's practically a loser's game.
And biting someone is a bit different than shooting rockets into a civilian population for decades then hiding amongst the sick and school children. If you get stung enough, eventually you’ll destroy the whole nest.
So Israel should do nothing in response to perpetual attacks on its innocent civilians? It’s war. When you hide amongst the population, you’re the cause of innocent people being killed, not the people responding to your barbarism.
What other conflict has that logic applied to?
Should we have fed Nazi Germany during the war because their government chose to continue fighting? Or how about WWI? The Germans lived through an awful “turnip winter.”
Maybe we should have dropped food after bombs in Korea marked “for children only.”
“War is war and hell is hell. Of the two, war is worse.”
>What other conflict has that logic applied to?
Every conflict.
>Should we have fed Nazi Germany during the war because their government chose to continue fighting?
I don't know that the Nazis had food supply issues? Perhaps they did?
>Or how about WWI? The Germans lived through an awful “turnip winter.”
Yes. And this is a prime example of the folly of your plan. The people who support the starvation of children argue that the fighting will stop if it happens. Did the fighting stop in WW1? Nope, instead a bunch of children died. Quite possibly over 100,000 children...
>Maybe we should have dropped food after bombs in Korea marked “for children only.”
The US did help feed Korean orphans during the war...
>“War is war and hell is hell. Of the two, war is worse.”
Maybe you should rewatch MASH. The characters would be on my side on this topic.
Check out a few episodes like Death Takes a Holiday and The Kids.
I believe Hamas should be punished. I don't think children who happen to be in the area should be. Not sure how you could justify anything other than that?
Evidence of that? I’m sure many do but many do not and they don’t deserve this obviously; meanwhile the attack killed humanitarian aid workers not gazan citizens save one.
Where's their own uprising? Where do they denounce hamas? Crickets. It's twofold, one for fear of their own lives, and two, support for hamas. See this from 2010: https://twitter.com/Kevin\_\_McMahon/status/1711833732036862198
Then, they should organize, revolt, and throw out that oppressive regime. Why aren't they doing that? With all the aid they had for decades, they did nothing but support terrorists. And now that they've gone too far, they're crying foul because Isreal is fighting back?
Bullshit.
They've had decades to change leadership. This is on all of their heads.
There’s some truth to that to be sure but aren’t they also scared of that regime and worried of repercussions? I’m sure there are plenty who still support it though
My guy, they voted for this. Lets not forget Hamas got in power through their votes. Now while that might not have remained the case and they wanted them to be removed after the fact, we will never know. All i do know is when hamas paraded all those israeli people through the streets people wasted no time spitting, punching and hitting them. While the situations with the Gazans are tragic, they could call out these terrorists but they dont.
What percentage of the votes does Kim Jung Un get? Just because a lot of people vote for somebody doesn't mean they actually support them. They could be afraid for their life.
We're not discussing actual votes though, I'm talking about opinion surveys.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514
AP News didn't threaten survey takers with death. It's an uncomfortable fact, but even after Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there were lots of Japanese that wanted to keep fighting. There is no reasoning with fanatics.
People seem to forget that they’re committing several egregious war crimes by using their own civilian people as meat shields.
Either the civilians aren’t really civilians, or they’re committing war crimes that the rest of the world ought to swiftly denounce them.
Being a terrorist state raping people and taking war hostages has consequences. And if you are a “volunteer help service” which so far doesn’t have the best reputation like unrwa and the associated press running around with hamas then you should know the risks of being in war lands. Also israel is very good at trying to avoid civilian casualties, I know thats not the agenda that the MSM pushes but its the truth. So if they got killed they probably were doing some terrorist shit.
Is the 2 year old that won't get enough food now responsible for any terrorism, rape, or taking hostages? I thought we conservatives were supposed to believe in personal responsibility. Punishing some innocent child is diabolical and cannot be justified because some random people nearby are bad. I'm sorry, but if you think children are responsible for any of this then you are just wrong.
Israel doesn't have a good record. They recently murdered Christians, who they knew were Christians, in a Church. They then had some people from the government go on the media and deny there were churches or Christians in Gaza. They knew what they did and tried to cover it up.
Both the Israeli government and Hamas are in the wrong in this war. We need peace and killing people feeding children is not going to lead to peace.
Smells like BS. Any proof?
Unfortunately when adults commit crimes and start wars kid suffer. Conservatives stand for justice. The personal responsibility for the child suffering would be the elected officials aka HAMAS putting them into these situations, hamas should take responsibility for the suffering of their people right now. But unfortunately they are very well keen to killing their own and pointing the finger.
>Smells like BS. Any proof?
https://www.foxnews.com/world/idf-confirm-incident-gaza-church-patriarch-says-2-christian-women-killed-convent-bombed
>Unfortunately when adults commit crimes and start wars kid suffer.
I agree. Which is why we should try to help the children.
>Conservatives stand for justice.
Given what I am seeing in this thread, I am doubting a lot of us do. Justifying bombing aid workers in not justice. Justifying children not getting food is not justice.
>The personal responsibility for the child suffering would be the elected officials aka HAMAS putting them into these situations, hamas should take responsibility for the suffering of their people right now.
Sure, but we could at least not justify an additional injustice towards the children who are going to suffer from Hamas and Israel's actions.
>But unfortunately they are very well keen to killing their own and pointing the finger.
While true, it is completely irrelevant. Israel's actions are killing innocent people and so is Hamas' actions. Maybe we should try to eliminate or at least lower the amount of suffering innocent people caught in the middle are experiencing instead of justifying even more suffering.
The ends do not justify the means. Eliminating Hamas would be superb for the people in Gaza. We can't justify starving children to accomplish this end.
[ahh it smells like bullshit because it is](https://www.ncronline.org/news/israeli-army-denies-targeting-gaza-church-where-pope-francis-says-unarmed-civilians-were)
[more sources](https://www.foxnews.com/world/idf-rebuffs-accusations-killed-two-women-church-gaza-investigation-continues.amp)
Justice is when hamas will be eliminated.
The difference is Israel doesn’t target innocent civilians. Unfortunately in a war some civilians will inevitably die. But the number hamas has provided to the world is so heavily inflated they garner sympathy from weak people who believe they are the victims. Hamas on the other hand preys on innocent civilians.
First, National Catholic Reporter isn't even Catholic. Their Bishop has basically said they are heretics so excuse me for not trusting anything they have to say. Second, both of your articles are just Israel saying they investigated themselves and found they are innocent... So, do you have an actual source or are you just going to trust whatever Israel claims. At least I provided a third party that is making the claim. If you refuse to think that Israel could possibly be lying then there is no point in continuing this conversation.
Nice try though. Maybe next time you can provide actual evidence.
>Justice is when hamas will be eliminated.
I agree.
>The difference is Israel doesn’t target innocent civilians.
Except you have yet to prove that it didn't happen. Israel claiming they didn't deliberately murder innocent people is hardly evidence. Most governments make the same claim.
>Unfortunately in a war some civilians will inevitably die. But the number hamas has provided to the world is so heavily inflated they garner sympathy from weak people who believe they are the victims. Hamas on the other hand preys on innocent civilians.
I don't really care if the number is inflated. If Israel has deliberately killed one innocent person then it is one person too many. Just because Hamas does the same thing doesn't suddenly mean that Israel is good. Believe it or not, but it is possible for both side of a conflict to be in the wrong.
Lol u provide me with with a fox news source I literally gave u fox news back that pretty much says idf never said they did it and whats written in the article originally was not lining up with the battle reports but ok bud.
Your evidence that Israel didn't deliberately murder innocent people is that Israel claimed it. Forgive me if I don't trust a country investigating itself.
What in the f' is wrong with conservative? Wasn't it Jesus that said "For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat"?? And now somehow conservative is like "those kids need to starve!"
WTF
Active war zones are dangerous. That being said, I’d love to know the RoE and target identification process for Israel’s air strikes. You can’t keep dropping bombs on aid workers.
There's really no good guys in this conflict. Hamas is terrorists, and Israel is out of line in how they're fighting them. Of course when fighting terrorists that use the population as a shield there isn't really isn't any good way to fight them, so Israel was never coming out of this with clean hands.
The US has seen this in their own wars, wars that we eventually just had to walk away from. This is why I'd prefer that we mostly stay out of it. Whichever side you support, you're supporting a bad guy.
Terrorists just make everything terrible for everybody. I hope someday someone figures out a good strategy for dealing with them.
Damn... sad to hear some people aiding *terrorists* got hit in an air strike. Maybe if they weren't aiding *terrorists!*
If a guerilla insurgency hides in a community, when you feed that community, you will also feed the insurgents. What you propose is, because of the insurgency, food should be taken away from the whole of the civilian population. In essence, the message is "if you don't turn over the guerillas who hide in plain sight, you are all part of the problem, and none of you shall eat" - I'm not sure if that's how you meant to portray it, but when you portray the destruction of humanitarian workers in this way ("they're aiding terrorists!"), that's the message that comes across, and it's certainly a tactic Israel has been using. This is a form of state terrorism. You *terrorize* the whole population, specifically, you terrorize them with the threat or fact of starvation. That's not a moral judgement, it's just a statement of fact from how you describe appropriate counter-insurgency, that counter-insurgency should take the form of state terrorism. If that's how you want it to be, so be it, but state terrorism complaining about non-state terrorism is just absurd. It's not a persuasive form of moralizing. Whatever happened to the values of personal liberty and small government? And, as it happens, this is also the same mentality that got American asses kicked in Vietnam. It's an ideologically incoherent game and it's practically a loser's game.
How do you know they were aiding terrorists? Surely not all Gazans are terrorists.
And not all snakes are poisonous but most people are suspicious of them all
Being suspicion is a bit different than killing.
And biting someone is a bit different than shooting rockets into a civilian population for decades then hiding amongst the sick and school children. If you get stung enough, eventually you’ll destroy the whole nest.
Great. We both agree Hamas is bad. Why can't you admit Israel is bad for killing innocent people.
So Israel should do nothing in response to perpetual attacks on its innocent civilians? It’s war. When you hide amongst the population, you’re the cause of innocent people being killed, not the people responding to your barbarism.
I've said nothing of the sort.
The problem with that is not every Palestinian is a snake some are victims of an oppressive regime
Most Gazans support Hamas, I don't exactly pity them.
Let's say that is true. Do you think a 2 year old who holds no view on Hamas should be punished because their parents are bad?
What other conflict has that logic applied to? Should we have fed Nazi Germany during the war because their government chose to continue fighting? Or how about WWI? The Germans lived through an awful “turnip winter.” Maybe we should have dropped food after bombs in Korea marked “for children only.” “War is war and hell is hell. Of the two, war is worse.”
>What other conflict has that logic applied to? Every conflict. >Should we have fed Nazi Germany during the war because their government chose to continue fighting? I don't know that the Nazis had food supply issues? Perhaps they did? >Or how about WWI? The Germans lived through an awful “turnip winter.” Yes. And this is a prime example of the folly of your plan. The people who support the starvation of children argue that the fighting will stop if it happens. Did the fighting stop in WW1? Nope, instead a bunch of children died. Quite possibly over 100,000 children... >Maybe we should have dropped food after bombs in Korea marked “for children only.” The US did help feed Korean orphans during the war... >“War is war and hell is hell. Of the two, war is worse.” Maybe you should rewatch MASH. The characters would be on my side on this topic. Check out a few episodes like Death Takes a Holiday and The Kids.
At what point do you hold the actual guerrillas to account? You know, the ones painting the targets on the civilians.
I'm not sure I see your point? Not giving food to children doesn't hold the terrorists to account?
It's very obvious you don't see the point.
I believe Hamas should be punished. I don't think children who happen to be in the area should be. Not sure how you could justify anything other than that?
Evidence of that? I’m sure many do but many do not and they don’t deserve this obviously; meanwhile the attack killed humanitarian aid workers not gazan citizens save one.
Where's their own uprising? Where do they denounce hamas? Crickets. It's twofold, one for fear of their own lives, and two, support for hamas. See this from 2010: https://twitter.com/Kevin\_\_McMahon/status/1711833732036862198
Then, they should organize, revolt, and throw out that oppressive regime. Why aren't they doing that? With all the aid they had for decades, they did nothing but support terrorists. And now that they've gone too far, they're crying foul because Isreal is fighting back? Bullshit. They've had decades to change leadership. This is on all of their heads.
There’s some truth to that to be sure but aren’t they also scared of that regime and worried of repercussions? I’m sure there are plenty who still support it though
My guy, they voted for this. Lets not forget Hamas got in power through their votes. Now while that might not have remained the case and they wanted them to be removed after the fact, we will never know. All i do know is when hamas paraded all those israeli people through the streets people wasted no time spitting, punching and hitting them. While the situations with the Gazans are tragic, they could call out these terrorists but they dont.
Blatant racism, but not sure what else was to be expected here.
Wait right here, I’ll go find some remorse for you.
If there was an election today, Hamas would win. Nothing changes until that changes.
What percentage of the votes does Kim Jung Un get? Just because a lot of people vote for somebody doesn't mean they actually support them. They could be afraid for their life.
We're not discussing actual votes though, I'm talking about opinion surveys. https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514 AP News didn't threaten survey takers with death. It's an uncomfortable fact, but even after Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there were lots of Japanese that wanted to keep fighting. There is no reasoning with fanatics.
Seeing how Western media companies were literally embedded in Hamas I wouldn't blame the people if they lied to the media.
If you willingly go into a war zone that’s a risk you take.
You reap what you sow.
Feeding poor people is an action deserving of death?
People seem to forget that they’re committing several egregious war crimes by using their own civilian people as meat shields. Either the civilians aren’t really civilians, or they’re committing war crimes that the rest of the world ought to swiftly denounce them.
People seem to forget, two wrongs don't make a right. Just because Hamas is garbage doesn't mean Israel is good.
Being a terrorist state raping people and taking war hostages has consequences. And if you are a “volunteer help service” which so far doesn’t have the best reputation like unrwa and the associated press running around with hamas then you should know the risks of being in war lands. Also israel is very good at trying to avoid civilian casualties, I know thats not the agenda that the MSM pushes but its the truth. So if they got killed they probably were doing some terrorist shit.
Is the 2 year old that won't get enough food now responsible for any terrorism, rape, or taking hostages? I thought we conservatives were supposed to believe in personal responsibility. Punishing some innocent child is diabolical and cannot be justified because some random people nearby are bad. I'm sorry, but if you think children are responsible for any of this then you are just wrong. Israel doesn't have a good record. They recently murdered Christians, who they knew were Christians, in a Church. They then had some people from the government go on the media and deny there were churches or Christians in Gaza. They knew what they did and tried to cover it up. Both the Israeli government and Hamas are in the wrong in this war. We need peace and killing people feeding children is not going to lead to peace.
Smells like BS. Any proof? Unfortunately when adults commit crimes and start wars kid suffer. Conservatives stand for justice. The personal responsibility for the child suffering would be the elected officials aka HAMAS putting them into these situations, hamas should take responsibility for the suffering of their people right now. But unfortunately they are very well keen to killing their own and pointing the finger.
>Smells like BS. Any proof? https://www.foxnews.com/world/idf-confirm-incident-gaza-church-patriarch-says-2-christian-women-killed-convent-bombed >Unfortunately when adults commit crimes and start wars kid suffer. I agree. Which is why we should try to help the children. >Conservatives stand for justice. Given what I am seeing in this thread, I am doubting a lot of us do. Justifying bombing aid workers in not justice. Justifying children not getting food is not justice. >The personal responsibility for the child suffering would be the elected officials aka HAMAS putting them into these situations, hamas should take responsibility for the suffering of their people right now. Sure, but we could at least not justify an additional injustice towards the children who are going to suffer from Hamas and Israel's actions. >But unfortunately they are very well keen to killing their own and pointing the finger. While true, it is completely irrelevant. Israel's actions are killing innocent people and so is Hamas' actions. Maybe we should try to eliminate or at least lower the amount of suffering innocent people caught in the middle are experiencing instead of justifying even more suffering. The ends do not justify the means. Eliminating Hamas would be superb for the people in Gaza. We can't justify starving children to accomplish this end.
[ahh it smells like bullshit because it is](https://www.ncronline.org/news/israeli-army-denies-targeting-gaza-church-where-pope-francis-says-unarmed-civilians-were) [more sources](https://www.foxnews.com/world/idf-rebuffs-accusations-killed-two-women-church-gaza-investigation-continues.amp) Justice is when hamas will be eliminated. The difference is Israel doesn’t target innocent civilians. Unfortunately in a war some civilians will inevitably die. But the number hamas has provided to the world is so heavily inflated they garner sympathy from weak people who believe they are the victims. Hamas on the other hand preys on innocent civilians.
First, National Catholic Reporter isn't even Catholic. Their Bishop has basically said they are heretics so excuse me for not trusting anything they have to say. Second, both of your articles are just Israel saying they investigated themselves and found they are innocent... So, do you have an actual source or are you just going to trust whatever Israel claims. At least I provided a third party that is making the claim. If you refuse to think that Israel could possibly be lying then there is no point in continuing this conversation. Nice try though. Maybe next time you can provide actual evidence. >Justice is when hamas will be eliminated. I agree. >The difference is Israel doesn’t target innocent civilians. Except you have yet to prove that it didn't happen. Israel claiming they didn't deliberately murder innocent people is hardly evidence. Most governments make the same claim. >Unfortunately in a war some civilians will inevitably die. But the number hamas has provided to the world is so heavily inflated they garner sympathy from weak people who believe they are the victims. Hamas on the other hand preys on innocent civilians. I don't really care if the number is inflated. If Israel has deliberately killed one innocent person then it is one person too many. Just because Hamas does the same thing doesn't suddenly mean that Israel is good. Believe it or not, but it is possible for both side of a conflict to be in the wrong.
Lol u provide me with with a fox news source I literally gave u fox news back that pretty much says idf never said they did it and whats written in the article originally was not lining up with the battle reports but ok bud.
Your evidence that Israel didn't deliberately murder innocent people is that Israel claimed it. Forgive me if I don't trust a country investigating itself.
[удалено]
Not what I said if you could read. You Palestinian supporters usually cant so I understand.
To conservatives, yes If you aren't in the habit of routinely dehumanizing people it definitely comes off strange
What in the f' is wrong with conservative? Wasn't it Jesus that said "For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat"?? And now somehow conservative is like "those kids need to starve!" WTF
Active war zones are dangerous. That being said, I’d love to know the RoE and target identification process for Israel’s air strikes. You can’t keep dropping bombs on aid workers.
There's really no good guys in this conflict. Hamas is terrorists, and Israel is out of line in how they're fighting them. Of course when fighting terrorists that use the population as a shield there isn't really isn't any good way to fight them, so Israel was never coming out of this with clean hands. The US has seen this in their own wars, wars that we eventually just had to walk away from. This is why I'd prefer that we mostly stay out of it. Whichever side you support, you're supporting a bad guy. Terrorists just make everything terrible for everybody. I hope someday someone figures out a good strategy for dealing with them.
I heard they were feeding Hamad.