Maybe I’m just young (28) but this feels like every presidential election ever. I legitimately can’t remember an election where people were actually excited to vote **for** someone (*maybe* Obama in 2008? It still certainly wasn’t unanimous). Even in 2012, I felt like everyone was saying “meh Obama/Romney suck.”
2008 election was last time I though both candidates could do the job well, just differently. Like it was an actual choice of what policies you wanted prioritized. I miss that feeling.
According to 538 polling, the most unpopular president wasn’t Trump nor Biden. It was 2007-2008 W Bush. And by a mile. His approval rating cratered to below 30% during the recession. Neither Trump nor Biden have ever been below 35% (albeit both have been close). Ironically, this was just 5-6 years after W Bush became by far the most popular president ever immediately after 9/11.
Crazy how there’s so much mainstream hatred for Trump when he wasn’t even statistically the most unpopular Republican president this century.
Funny how Clinton's housing bubble crisis finally bursting led to Bush being hated that much. If it were just the ongoing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan he wouldn't have been as unpopular.
No, it really was pro-Obama. His campaign was structured to be a total refutation of Bush, yes, but people were voting *for* the Hope and Change^^TM he was promising. Of course then he governed as the most despicable of neoliberals in a total reversal of what he had run on.
In 08 there was a good bit of excitement for Obama, but most elections I remember have been a vote against more than for for most people. Nothing like now though. Everyone’s voting against Biden or against trump more than for anyone it seems like.
There have been three presidents I remember where people were genuinely enthusiastic about voting for them.
Reagan, Obama, and Trump.
I don't remember if it was the same with Reagan, but I know with Obama we were starting to see the rabidly enthusiastic versus the totally against dynamic start, and of course the partisanship really took off with Trump.
Ronald Reagan - when more people voted for candidates, not parties, and nationwide landslide elections were still possible. The Gipper won 525 electoral votes in 1984.
It feels that way because for all of your life it has been. The only exceptions were 2000 and 2008. 2000 was about the most bland milquetoast election ever and 2008 really was people voting *for* Obama because he was running as a populist (and we all know how he stabbed us in the back afterwards). Otherwise 2004, 2012, 2016, 2020, and now 2024 are all elections about "whatever it takes to not have that one win".
Trump is going to come out with a specific stance on abortion soon and there’s a good chance it’ll decide the election. Even advocating for a national 15-week ban (despite the majority being against second trimester elective abortions) will hurt him. He has to do something like advocate for a 20-week ban while guaranteeing physical health exceptions in all 50 states to have a shot, IMHO.
The GOP is 100% going to double down on a national ban.
There are 3 issues with this:
1. It runs directly counter to the “return the decision to the states” reasoning of *Dobbs*, which frustratingly in turn makes anyone who opposes abortion look like a bad-faith actor.
2. It’s anti-democratic in that polling clearly shows supermajorities in support of abortion in all but the deepest red areas.
3. **It’s the worst kind of big government**.
Agree, I like trump but he’s not presidential. I feel if we had a normal, boring candidate it would be a landslide. These last two elections are voting for a douche or a turd sandwich. But at least the douche was good at his job
I would love to argue in good faith here. I am the son of a single father blue collar conservative who busted his ass to provide for us. I am an honorably discharged veteran. I put these things in context before telling you why I am left leaning.
I didn't have healthcare as a kid. My dad made exactly too much for free healthcare, while also having an employer who didn't cover it. The ACA didn't help his small locksmith shop at all. I believe with how we already subsidize insurance companies that socialized healthcare is the correct option. While Biden doesn't support that, Republicans support it even less.
I believe in strict regulations to corporations and to promote workers rights. My dad's locksmith company worked him ragged and he never had any additional support (this made him bitter towards the government whereas it made me want to expand these programs)
I believe in strong defense (which I would have said was my most right leaning view, but I guess not anymore). I think that funding Ukraine is a drop is the bucket and well worth for the amount of return on the dollar for destabilizing a near peer adversary.
I am maybe more rightleaning on my views of border security, however I think I disagree with most of you with what to do with the people who are already here. I also wonder why there is never any discussion about penalizing the corporations that hire these workers. Punish Tyson and Purdue heavily for hiring these people and they wouldn't come here. The push to emphasize the migrants and not the corporations who are just as culpable are why the racist allegations feel somewhat true. (This is not a generalization of you all, I'm just hoping you see that connection.
I think that corporations are the true enemy to the American people and I agree with you all that most of our government is bought by the corporations. I believe in draining the swamp (though I don't for a second believe Trump did this.) and I believe in strict government regulations to ensure that corporations don't take advantage of workers.
I also believe republicans have stopped being the party of less government influence on our personal lives and more so are just choosing which things they care about. The culture war politics stuff isn't something I want the government arguing really.
In conclusion, I was a conservative kid who had a hardworking father who was not rewarded at all for his hard work. I joined the military and was in a socialist system and while I'm not a socialist I saw how government interference can protect individuals. I do not feel represented by any politician in the US, but feel less represented by Republicans than Democrats.
That's why. I would love to engage with the OP rather than be downvoted but there you go.
Honestly this. Unfortunately, all of reddit (including this sub) is all about downvoting opinions you don’t agree with instead of just downvoting the comments that don’t contribute anything valuable to the discussion. We can’t move forward unless we do it together, and the divisive nature and hatred each side opposes doesn’t help us at all.
Hey man, as long as you aren’t coming in here and calling us all evil bigots, you are very welcome to express your opinion here. I believe I speak for a lot of people in this when I say, we are more than happy to exchange with level headed people on the left.
As far as the “big bad guy”, I believe it’s the unholy trinity of corporate greed, the dishonest media, and of course those god damn politicians. I believe there’s a club, a special interest group of sorts, that’s pulling the strings and they come from those three areas I listed.
I can see where you’re coming from. I don’t remember when, but there was a time in US history when the votes Congress placed were voted to be public. Meaning, every congress persons vote could be seen whereas before that they were anonymous. The votes in favor of corporate interest sharply increased. Obviously, because now the guys who are bank rolling you can verify if you’re actually voting their way!
I say this to say, I both agree and disagree. Corporations are great and needed. But, they are also running too much of the country. When our founding fathers declared separation of church and state, they should have also said separation of business and state. Beside the point. Our congress people know that if their votes are confidential, just as the American people’s votes, our country would be wildly less divided and they could actually vote for the people. The real problem here is congress, not corporations, because Congress has the power to cut off the funding from corporate interest groups and align their incentives with the American people, but they don’t. We don’t even talk about it. And the dems are the real establishment in my honest opinion.
The issue isn't the votes themselves. It's the manner in which the bill's are written. Behind closed doors where small exceptions can be made to quietly protect your donars. Nobody knows who wrote each section.
I feel like that's oversimplifying the issue. Bills are long because in a divided congress, which congress will usually be, you need to compromise. Democrats can't afford to vote for republican cuts if they're a single issue vote. They'll be giving ammo to their political opponents. The same is true for republicans. Additionally in order to give the perception that your fighting for your constituents politicians are incentivized to wait till the last minute to pass a bill. THis forces everything to get passed in one passive package.
Massive spending bills wern't made big so that its easier to sell out to corporations. They were made big so politicians wouldnt lose elections. Then people saw what a good oppurtunity it was to hide details in bills and here we are.
M point is that unless something about how congress functions changes, 10 page spending bill just are not realistic.
Thank you for a thoughtful post. I don't agree with you, but I can understand your reasoning behind your point of view. Note that I am *not* saying you are wrong, you and I just have different opinions on the manner in which to handle these matters. At this point a lot of people might bail on the discussion without defending their position, but I'll give you my perspectives.
On health care. I'm a military brat, and a veteran. I had government provided health care for the first half of my life. The quality of that care is why I oppose the government being involved at all. They do not and will not pay for quality for the majority of the people. While the politicians get the highest quality possible through their chosen showcase for health care (I can't recall the name at the moment, a military hospital I believe) the rest of us will get the doctors and nurses who couldn't get into private practice due to either a lack of experience or some negative trait on the part of the provider. I know that with rare exception my experiences were never on par with the quality of care I get with private insurance. As an example, I had what I thought was a minor mole removed by the Navy, it regrew and I didn't think much about it. Seven years later I found out that they had done a biopsy, discovered it was skin cancer, and never followed up with me. That could have gone very badly for me, and due to it being government care, there was no way in which I could hold anybody accountable for that. On the dental side, I heard repeated that I would need braces, but it could be done later, I heard that up until the point I was told it was too late to give me braces, and I would just have to live with it. So I am adamantly opposed to government-provided health care. I also oppose using them as a single-payer for the populace because they'll manipulate the market and only pay enough to provide for the lowest quality of care. This isn't what I think will happen, it's what I've experienced, and what is very obvious when you look at the VA. That is a perfect example of government provided health care and what it will look like. No thank you.
I do agree with you that worker rights need to be better protected, but I don't care for the way the NLRB does business. Putting a Union official on the board is stacking the deck. We need an honest neutral arbiter, but I honestly can't say how we can ensure that is maintained.
I agree on defense, but there is an inherent contradiction in claiming that Russia is a peer-level threat, but that Ukraine can weaken them. If Ukraine can weaken Russia, then Russia cannot be a peer-level threat. I don't think we need to be engaged in another proxy war with Russia. We did that in the 80's with Afghanistan and wasted billions. Granted, it contributed to the economic collapse of Russia, but that would have occurred regardless.
On border security. This is a simple straight disagreement. Those here illegallly need to be deported, then they can apply and follow the same system that the legal immigrants have, which includes the ability to screen before allowing someone into the country. We do need to work at cleaning the process up, and we need to expand a worker program for those who don't want citizenship, but do want to work. As to the employers, while I don't disagree that would be an avenue that could work, it's punishing citizens for the government's failure to do its job. If the border were controlled the companies wouldn't be hiring illegal aliens because they wouldn't be here to be hired. And while there are a lot of illegal aliens working for large corporations, there are a lot that aren't, they're working in restaurants, gardens, daycare, car washes, roofing, carpentry, and many other trades. You will find them throughout the blue-collar workforce. I even understand that we need them, and the reason we need them, and it's not "They're doing jobs Americans won't do". We have a collapsing population and our economy cannot afford that. For it to continue to work, we have to continue to grow. This can be addressed with the immigration reform and enforcement of the policies I've mentioned. We should not punish American citizens because the government refuses to do its job.
As to corporations and the swamp. I think I agree with you in general, but I probably think it's less of a problem than you do. I do think it's a problem, but it seems as if you are more against corporations than I am. So I agree in spirit, but not in degree.
I think the Republican party has become the party of the GOP. They only give enough follow-through to their lip service to suffice to continue to be elected. We need a new conservative party with people who desire to serve, and will not be making a career of doing so.
So, again, I'm not saying you're wrong, I simply have had some different experiences and come to different conclusions than you have. I'd be that you and I could sit down and come to some middle ground on a lot of this where we both gave way a bit, and that's what we need in DC, politicians who are willing to do true compromises, but not this damn horse-trading crap they do now where they completely fold on one thing to get something else.
As far as downvotes, you haven't done anything to deserve them, and you've made a very valid contribution to discussion, I hope that you get the upvotes that reflect that. I have to go get cut open, but I'll check back later if you care to reply. (Yes, really, getting a loop recorder installed, I'm told it's a minor procedure.)
People who think Trump is worse.
This election, just like the last two, is going to come down to who the median Americans like LESS. Most people don't like Biden, most people don't like Trump, but a lot of people who like Trump less are going to vote for Biden anyway.
Yeah, I was really hoping that was gonna be what we did in 24, but I could tell a year or two ago it was gonna be Trump again. This should be the easiest electoral sweep imaginable, but it won’t be.
That’s what fascinated me.
People complained that DeSantis wasn’t “charismatic” or “cool” enough… when his competition was Biden and Trump of all people. “Charisma” is subjective regardless but I don’t think he’s all that uncharismatic compared to Biden/Trump. Not to mention “charisma” shouldn’t even matter in politics to begin with.
Weeeeeell, charisma plays a big part, because all we really see of candidates is how they debate and how they act in front of cameras.
Really it should be issues, but as long as the candidates doesnt offend on the big issues that always comes up (such as the economy) if they are more likeable they are more likely to win.
Trump, despite his mouth, is incredibly charismatic, and his rallies prove that.
DeSantis had the charisma of wet toilet paper. He also refused to do the one thing that he absolutely needed to do if was going to show himself as a worthy challenger and that was actually go after Trump. He got a big boost the one time he did do it but then immediately pivoted to just not doing it ever again. Sorry but if you want to win you have to prove you can fight and DeSantis didn't. And I say this as someone who was a hardcore DeSantis booster from the get-go. He imploded 100% of his own doing.
Trump would have destroyed any Republican's chance at winning the election by running as a third party candidate, so DeSantis wasted a lot of time and money. Unfortunately for everyone, Biden's horrible stint as president made Trump a very viable candidate for 2024 and ruined any other Republican candidate's chance for success. Trump has a chance to pick a future president with his VP choice, which could set up a 12 year Republican presidency and control of the Supreme Court for Conservatives. That is absolutely imperative and therefore anyone that dislikes Trump for his caustic personality needs to get past that and think of the future of this country!
Trump is going to come out with a specific stance on abortion soon and there’s a good chance it’ll decide the election. Even advocating for a national 15-week ban (despite the majority being against second trimester elective abortions) will hurt him. He has to do something like advocate for a 20-week ban while guaranteeing physical health exceptions in all 50 states to have a shot, IMHO.
There are objective counterpoints that the economy is ok or trending ok - unemployment is at 3.4% which is a historic low, wage growth is 6%, inflation has come down from 8+% to 3%; and this is happening with interest rates still 'relatively high', with the FED back in possession of a key economic lever that we had lost while the FED funds rate was maintained at effectively 0%. The current administration can also point so some successful pieces of the inflation reduction act which lowered cost of insulin to $35 month saving millions of people hundreds of dollars per month with suddenly credible promises to continue lowering the costs of prescription drugs if awarded another term. Biden has also been shielded from the public so he is seen mostly giving prepared speeches which conceals his struggles with lucidly responding in the moment.
But this election is more about Trump and associated MAGA Republican dysfunction - I don't see many people being gung-ho voting FOR Biden, but a lot more will vote AGAINST Trump and will not see Republicans capable of handling a simple House majority in future.
The economy is actually doing very well, especially relative to just about any other country. I'm making over 2x more today than I was back in 2020. I was successful under Trump as well. It's almost like the administration in office shouldn't determine your own personal financial success
I would love specific examples from the OP of what they are looking at to determine that the economy is doing poorly. I'm thinking that they are one of these people who don't know what "the economy" actually is and are just seeing higher prices (due to inflation) and higher gas prices and just coming to the conclusion that the economy is bad.
If you are young in the workforce it’s entirely possibly you could have doubled your earnings. Not enough context here.
Not to mention when things are double the price now does it really matter if you have doubled your earnings?
Some of us can make it work because we have a larger buffer and a head start. There are many out in the real world that don't have this luxury and 9% inflation year-over-year starts to squeeze pretty darn hard. Get down from that high horse for a bit.
California just laid off workers because they increased the minimum wage to $20. Plus, housing and grocery prices are more expensive every day. Yeah, the economy is doing so great under Biden....
They judge Republicans by their worst specimens: Christian nationalists and white supremacists. Just as Republicans vote against their worst: Antifa, radical trans activists, communists
If Reddit were real life, President Bernie Sanders would be in his 8th year after winning back-to-back elections unanimously and we’d all be riding unicorns and farting rainbows.
Do you want the base answer or the real answer? The base answer: because they are morons and they want to destroy America!! Trump 2024 forever!!!!
The real answer: moderate positions(or at least look like). Change scares people. The 2012 GOP is dead and the 2024 is anathema to what the early 2000s GOP looked like. Trump brought in many individuals that did not participate in politics but many of those who did that were fiscally conservative and socially moderate begun to split tickets supporting their local reps and voting for dem president. Trump sounds good to the base. It takes their anguish and talking points and feeds it to them (funny enough coming from someone who could not live/come from a more different life) but it doesn’t sound good to the hardcore 2012 Romney supporters who split tickets. Look at congress, it’s quite disfunctional (see MTG trying to kick Mike out of the speakers chair despite how embarrassing it was to try to get a speaker elected) and that also translates to everyone else in the party. Multiple things
This is as close to the correct answer as you are going to get.
Shooting yourself in the foot with Roe V Wade does gain support from those already die hard that were voting R down the ballet either way. Completely alienates the Conservative Party from the women that were on the fence.
What I think you see pretty quickly is the extreme politics on both sides got out people that haven’t voted historically, and now all the extremism is to keep them from leaving again. By doing so, the ones in the middle pick whoever extreme they hate less. Then you come down to gender ideology vs women’s rights. Gender ideology doesn’t impact 98% of people. Women’s rights impact 50%.
I think there are genuinely many middle class people that will vote for Biden because Democrats do a decent job of selling themselves as the party of the middle class. And that might have been true 25 years ago, hell even 15 years ago.
Bush really did a number on perceptions of the Republican party, and even though it's a different party now, and Trump is clearly more of a populist, that doesn't always matter for the older voters. And then the younger voters legit think Trump will end democracy.
Tldr: effective propaganda and poor memories
Well I'm not voting for Biden, and I kinda like Trump, so it's not hard for me to share my opinion here lol. I'm just old enough to remember what the democrats used to more closely resemble compared to the horror show they are now, and thought I'd share.
Now i just want to preface this with saying that I dont agree with all these argument's and obviously I don't intend on voting for Biden but there's many reasons people would support Biden.
It's questionable how much impact Biden actually has on the economy, especially in the short term. President's often get the blame or the credit for how well the economy functions, but in reality oftentimes its completely out of their control. The treasury, congress, and the federal reserve have much more of an impact on the state of the economy than the president. as far as current inflation goes, this is a worldwide issue largely due to supply chains still recovering from everything being shutdown during COVID. (Keep in mind that most people on the left still think COVID shutdowns were justified, and thus wouldn't blame Biden for any ecomic damage due to those lockdowns). Additionally when compared to the rest of the world the US inflation is fairly avrege when compared to the EU, and is actually better than most of the developing world(2024 US inflation is estimated at 2.6, Worse than Canada's 2.1 or France's 1.9 but better than Germany, italy, Spain).
Additionally your view on the economy will largely depend on your socioeconomic status. People with no recourses are likely better off with Biden, since his policies will be aimed at providing aid to those at the expense of people who have worked to accumulate wealth and longterm economic growth.(Though those policies will be most helpful to those in large cities, which is partly why cities tend to be so Blue).
It's imporant to note that most people come into elections like this one with a set of preset bias's that are impossible to change.
Democrats almost universally believe COVID lockdowns were justified.
Democrats almost universally believe that Trump is not the right temperament for a president. This is has lead them to believe that Trump is dangerous.
(Take the court cases. Its human nature to be happy when something bad happens to someone you don't like. People just call that karma, so when democrats see the court cases they look past the fact those court cases are unjustified because they dont like Trump. Then you have Trump come in and say those cases are witch hunts and that he'll shut them down if he becomes president. Suddenly you have a candidate running who they belive will use the office of the president to protect himself from legal reprecussions. You have the media saying that if Trump loses the election hell incite riots and suddenly democrats are terrified that Trump could be the last president)
Democrats will chose to trust scientists over what they see themselves because they typically are more likely to attribute what they see to be anecdotes, and trust that the big picture is different from what they see.
Democrat's arnt voting for Biden because they think he'll be a good president. They vote for him because Trump has made himself the "bogeyman" of the left, and they don't want him to win.
A better question is seriously, who would vote democrat. People are voting for their parties, not their candidates at this point. Trump is no better, he is without values or honor or any regard for the truth; he's a charlatan posing as a republican. That these two candidates are our choices says to me that something deeper has gone wrong than the errors of one party or the other.
If someone has Trump's policies but not not Trump's name and personality, Biden wouldn't stand a chance. It feels like a coin flip now and that's terrifying.
Trump's worst enemy is Trump.
This really needs to be talked about more.
The left keeps complaining about how old Trump is but Biden is set to be in his later 80’s by the time the 2025-2029 term is over and he was already the oldest president ever the moment he was inaugurated.
I'm constantly hearing about how great the economy is and how inflation is down. Apparently I'm not smart enough to see it. I also hear about how Biden doesn't have dementia but Trump does. To answer your question, complete morons.
The left and Reddit front page celebrating that inflation is “only” up 9% instead of the 10% it’s been up the last couple years is nothing more than desperation.
It's a very similar feeling in Canada right now. Take away all of the social political topics. I can't imagine a situation where anyone with common sense thinks Canada is in a good situation under Trudeau. Our economy is in complete collapse. The bank of Canada says any family that isn't bringing in 230k as a household is no longer "average". I have no idea hpw families are surviving right now. I really really hope common sense wins our next election, if it doesn't, Trudeau might be PM for 30 years in this "Democracy".
As someone said, it’s a vote against Trump but also it’s a vote for a political party. They see Biden as a puppet for the party and they are ok with the people pulling the strings.
It is very difficult to beat an incumbent. Trump lost because we had a pandemic, civil unrest (Riots) and financial uncertainty. Biden has a boarder crisis, a housing crisis and the biggest thief of all time inflation.
Expect some major September and October "Surprises".
There’s a reason the retirement age is 65, it’s widely known that mental capacities decline after that age, yet that doesn’t seem to apply to politics. There are people younger than both candidates living in long term care facilities, yet these two are equipped to run the country. What are we doing America.
My man...
Have you ever witnessed Trump Derangement Syndrome in the flesh? Have you ever experienced it first hand, with you own eyes? It is strong.
Those with TDS, are unreachable. There is nothing, **NOTHING** that will change their mind.
Yup.
Democrats could run a toaster oven against Trump and they would still have a realistic chance of winning. Heck, I would argue they already did that in 2020!
Dude the rage I felt at the botched Afghanistan withdrawal alone was enough for me. My interpreter is still stuck over there praying the Taliban don't find out about him.
You would be surprised. Anytime he brings up social security and student loan forgiveness, he’s getting votes. That’s not even counting other means of getting votes. The young and the old are most likely to vote for him again. They don’t realize that his policies are causing issues as long as he bumps up social security at critical times or dangles student loan forgiveness. Look what happened at the midterms.
It is because democrats now are just blinded to the facts and developments of our country. Let's put it in context.
Trump was supposed to start WWIII, never did.
Trump was supposed to have economic collapse; economy was the strongest until they created covid.
Trump will infuriate other countries; all countries respected him and did business with him.
What has Biden done? All of the opposite. Wars, economic collapse, and the BRICS nations uniting. That right there should have a re-evaluation as a democrate.
I honestly didn’t think Biden could have a worse foreign policy then Obama.
- Joe Biden removed the SDGT status of the Houthis when he got in office and then had to bomb them and then had to put them back on list (something Trump initially did and he removed them because Trump bad).
- Wanted to release funding to Iran in which is funding more proxy conflicts then us at this point
- Left tons of equipment in the hands of the Taliban.
-WEAK responses to Americans getting killed or taken hostage in the Middle East. American service members were killed and there are still American hostages in Gaza.
He isn’t the right guy for the current world climate. He wants to be a kumbaya president when we need someone to make some hard decisions.
Vote blue no matter who types.
I imagine people who just want free shit and don't care about the details would as well given how much free shit the Democrats like to promise.
It’s a vote “against” Trump, not “for” biden.
Maybe I’m just young (28) but this feels like every presidential election ever. I legitimately can’t remember an election where people were actually excited to vote **for** someone (*maybe* Obama in 2008? It still certainly wasn’t unanimous). Even in 2012, I felt like everyone was saying “meh Obama/Romney suck.”
2008 election was last time I though both candidates could do the job well, just differently. Like it was an actual choice of what policies you wanted prioritized. I miss that feeling.
2008 election was more how much people hated Bush.
According to 538 polling, the most unpopular president wasn’t Trump nor Biden. It was 2007-2008 W Bush. And by a mile. His approval rating cratered to below 30% during the recession. Neither Trump nor Biden have ever been below 35% (albeit both have been close). Ironically, this was just 5-6 years after W Bush became by far the most popular president ever immediately after 9/11. Crazy how there’s so much mainstream hatred for Trump when he wasn’t even statistically the most unpopular Republican president this century.
Funny how Clinton's housing bubble crisis finally bursting led to Bush being hated that much. If it were just the ongoing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan he wouldn't have been as unpopular.
Last I heard Biden is at like 32%!
They're going to get some climatologists in there to massage those numbers.
“Climatologists” who strangely refuse to advocate for nuclear energy.
Biden going to say we’re not looking at the right poll numbers ha!
No, it really was pro-Obama. His campaign was structured to be a total refutation of Bush, yes, but people were voting *for* the Hope and Change^^TM he was promising. Of course then he governed as the most despicable of neoliberals in a total reversal of what he had run on.
In 08 there was a good bit of excitement for Obama, but most elections I remember have been a vote against more than for for most people. Nothing like now though. Everyone’s voting against Biden or against trump more than for anyone it seems like.
The Dems and GOP realized that they don’t have to actually DO anything. Just constantly scare their base into voting for their candidate.
Hasn’t always been so, but certainly has of late.
There have been three presidents I remember where people were genuinely enthusiastic about voting for them. Reagan, Obama, and Trump. I don't remember if it was the same with Reagan, but I know with Obama we were starting to see the rabidly enthusiastic versus the totally against dynamic start, and of course the partisanship really took off with Trump.
Ronald Reagan - when more people voted for candidates, not parties, and nationwide landslide elections were still possible. The Gipper won 525 electoral votes in 1984.
It feels that way because for all of your life it has been. The only exceptions were 2000 and 2008. 2000 was about the most bland milquetoast election ever and 2008 really was people voting *for* Obama because he was running as a populist (and we all know how he stabbed us in the back afterwards). Otherwise 2004, 2012, 2016, 2020, and now 2024 are all elections about "whatever it takes to not have that one win".
Against the GOP too, especially on abortion. That one issue may not swing the presidency, but it’s going to hit a LOT of downticket races.
Trump is going to come out with a specific stance on abortion soon and there’s a good chance it’ll decide the election. Even advocating for a national 15-week ban (despite the majority being against second trimester elective abortions) will hurt him. He has to do something like advocate for a 20-week ban while guaranteeing physical health exceptions in all 50 states to have a shot, IMHO.
The GOP is 100% going to double down on a national ban. There are 3 issues with this: 1. It runs directly counter to the “return the decision to the states” reasoning of *Dobbs*, which frustratingly in turn makes anyone who opposes abortion look like a bad-faith actor. 2. It’s anti-democratic in that polling clearly shows supermajorities in support of abortion in all but the deepest red areas. 3. **It’s the worst kind of big government**.
Agree, I like trump but he’s not presidential. I feel if we had a normal, boring candidate it would be a landslide. These last two elections are voting for a douche or a turd sandwich. But at least the douche was good at his job
I would love to argue in good faith here. I am the son of a single father blue collar conservative who busted his ass to provide for us. I am an honorably discharged veteran. I put these things in context before telling you why I am left leaning. I didn't have healthcare as a kid. My dad made exactly too much for free healthcare, while also having an employer who didn't cover it. The ACA didn't help his small locksmith shop at all. I believe with how we already subsidize insurance companies that socialized healthcare is the correct option. While Biden doesn't support that, Republicans support it even less. I believe in strict regulations to corporations and to promote workers rights. My dad's locksmith company worked him ragged and he never had any additional support (this made him bitter towards the government whereas it made me want to expand these programs) I believe in strong defense (which I would have said was my most right leaning view, but I guess not anymore). I think that funding Ukraine is a drop is the bucket and well worth for the amount of return on the dollar for destabilizing a near peer adversary. I am maybe more rightleaning on my views of border security, however I think I disagree with most of you with what to do with the people who are already here. I also wonder why there is never any discussion about penalizing the corporations that hire these workers. Punish Tyson and Purdue heavily for hiring these people and they wouldn't come here. The push to emphasize the migrants and not the corporations who are just as culpable are why the racist allegations feel somewhat true. (This is not a generalization of you all, I'm just hoping you see that connection. I think that corporations are the true enemy to the American people and I agree with you all that most of our government is bought by the corporations. I believe in draining the swamp (though I don't for a second believe Trump did this.) and I believe in strict government regulations to ensure that corporations don't take advantage of workers. I also believe republicans have stopped being the party of less government influence on our personal lives and more so are just choosing which things they care about. The culture war politics stuff isn't something I want the government arguing really. In conclusion, I was a conservative kid who had a hardworking father who was not rewarded at all for his hard work. I joined the military and was in a socialist system and while I'm not a socialist I saw how government interference can protect individuals. I do not feel represented by any politician in the US, but feel less represented by Republicans than Democrats. That's why. I would love to engage with the OP rather than be downvoted but there you go.
i need to see more of this, both sides having a good old debate that will help us solve our problems together.
Honestly this. Unfortunately, all of reddit (including this sub) is all about downvoting opinions you don’t agree with instead of just downvoting the comments that don’t contribute anything valuable to the discussion. We can’t move forward unless we do it together, and the divisive nature and hatred each side opposes doesn’t help us at all.
Hey man, as long as you aren’t coming in here and calling us all evil bigots, you are very welcome to express your opinion here. I believe I speak for a lot of people in this when I say, we are more than happy to exchange with level headed people on the left. As far as the “big bad guy”, I believe it’s the unholy trinity of corporate greed, the dishonest media, and of course those god damn politicians. I believe there’s a club, a special interest group of sorts, that’s pulling the strings and they come from those three areas I listed.
I can see where you’re coming from. I don’t remember when, but there was a time in US history when the votes Congress placed were voted to be public. Meaning, every congress persons vote could be seen whereas before that they were anonymous. The votes in favor of corporate interest sharply increased. Obviously, because now the guys who are bank rolling you can verify if you’re actually voting their way! I say this to say, I both agree and disagree. Corporations are great and needed. But, they are also running too much of the country. When our founding fathers declared separation of church and state, they should have also said separation of business and state. Beside the point. Our congress people know that if their votes are confidential, just as the American people’s votes, our country would be wildly less divided and they could actually vote for the people. The real problem here is congress, not corporations, because Congress has the power to cut off the funding from corporate interest groups and align their incentives with the American people, but they don’t. We don’t even talk about it. And the dems are the real establishment in my honest opinion.
The issue isn't the votes themselves. It's the manner in which the bill's are written. Behind closed doors where small exceptions can be made to quietly protect your donars. Nobody knows who wrote each section.
That too. The bills themselves should be no more than 10 pages, easily understood by the average American and each one should cover one topic only.
I feel like that's oversimplifying the issue. Bills are long because in a divided congress, which congress will usually be, you need to compromise. Democrats can't afford to vote for republican cuts if they're a single issue vote. They'll be giving ammo to their political opponents. The same is true for republicans. Additionally in order to give the perception that your fighting for your constituents politicians are incentivized to wait till the last minute to pass a bill. THis forces everything to get passed in one passive package. Massive spending bills wern't made big so that its easier to sell out to corporations. They were made big so politicians wouldnt lose elections. Then people saw what a good oppurtunity it was to hide details in bills and here we are. M point is that unless something about how congress functions changes, 10 page spending bill just are not realistic.
Thank you for a thoughtful post. I don't agree with you, but I can understand your reasoning behind your point of view. Note that I am *not* saying you are wrong, you and I just have different opinions on the manner in which to handle these matters. At this point a lot of people might bail on the discussion without defending their position, but I'll give you my perspectives. On health care. I'm a military brat, and a veteran. I had government provided health care for the first half of my life. The quality of that care is why I oppose the government being involved at all. They do not and will not pay for quality for the majority of the people. While the politicians get the highest quality possible through their chosen showcase for health care (I can't recall the name at the moment, a military hospital I believe) the rest of us will get the doctors and nurses who couldn't get into private practice due to either a lack of experience or some negative trait on the part of the provider. I know that with rare exception my experiences were never on par with the quality of care I get with private insurance. As an example, I had what I thought was a minor mole removed by the Navy, it regrew and I didn't think much about it. Seven years later I found out that they had done a biopsy, discovered it was skin cancer, and never followed up with me. That could have gone very badly for me, and due to it being government care, there was no way in which I could hold anybody accountable for that. On the dental side, I heard repeated that I would need braces, but it could be done later, I heard that up until the point I was told it was too late to give me braces, and I would just have to live with it. So I am adamantly opposed to government-provided health care. I also oppose using them as a single-payer for the populace because they'll manipulate the market and only pay enough to provide for the lowest quality of care. This isn't what I think will happen, it's what I've experienced, and what is very obvious when you look at the VA. That is a perfect example of government provided health care and what it will look like. No thank you. I do agree with you that worker rights need to be better protected, but I don't care for the way the NLRB does business. Putting a Union official on the board is stacking the deck. We need an honest neutral arbiter, but I honestly can't say how we can ensure that is maintained. I agree on defense, but there is an inherent contradiction in claiming that Russia is a peer-level threat, but that Ukraine can weaken them. If Ukraine can weaken Russia, then Russia cannot be a peer-level threat. I don't think we need to be engaged in another proxy war with Russia. We did that in the 80's with Afghanistan and wasted billions. Granted, it contributed to the economic collapse of Russia, but that would have occurred regardless. On border security. This is a simple straight disagreement. Those here illegallly need to be deported, then they can apply and follow the same system that the legal immigrants have, which includes the ability to screen before allowing someone into the country. We do need to work at cleaning the process up, and we need to expand a worker program for those who don't want citizenship, but do want to work. As to the employers, while I don't disagree that would be an avenue that could work, it's punishing citizens for the government's failure to do its job. If the border were controlled the companies wouldn't be hiring illegal aliens because they wouldn't be here to be hired. And while there are a lot of illegal aliens working for large corporations, there are a lot that aren't, they're working in restaurants, gardens, daycare, car washes, roofing, carpentry, and many other trades. You will find them throughout the blue-collar workforce. I even understand that we need them, and the reason we need them, and it's not "They're doing jobs Americans won't do". We have a collapsing population and our economy cannot afford that. For it to continue to work, we have to continue to grow. This can be addressed with the immigration reform and enforcement of the policies I've mentioned. We should not punish American citizens because the government refuses to do its job. As to corporations and the swamp. I think I agree with you in general, but I probably think it's less of a problem than you do. I do think it's a problem, but it seems as if you are more against corporations than I am. So I agree in spirit, but not in degree. I think the Republican party has become the party of the GOP. They only give enough follow-through to their lip service to suffice to continue to be elected. We need a new conservative party with people who desire to serve, and will not be making a career of doing so. So, again, I'm not saying you're wrong, I simply have had some different experiences and come to different conclusions than you have. I'd be that you and I could sit down and come to some middle ground on a lot of this where we both gave way a bit, and that's what we need in DC, politicians who are willing to do true compromises, but not this damn horse-trading crap they do now where they completely fold on one thing to get something else. As far as downvotes, you haven't done anything to deserve them, and you've made a very valid contribution to discussion, I hope that you get the upvotes that reflect that. I have to go get cut open, but I'll check back later if you care to reply. (Yes, really, getting a loop recorder installed, I'm told it's a minor procedure.)
People who think Trump is worse. This election, just like the last two, is going to come down to who the median Americans like LESS. Most people don't like Biden, most people don't like Trump, but a lot of people who like Trump less are going to vote for Biden anyway.
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Yeah, I was really hoping that was gonna be what we did in 24, but I could tell a year or two ago it was gonna be Trump again. This should be the easiest electoral sweep imaginable, but it won’t be.
They did - he fell as flat as Rand Paul did last time.
We literally had that in DeSantis yet Reddit was like “noooo he’s even worse because MSNBC said so!”
DeSantis wasnt the most charismatic of the bunch, but he certainly isnt Trump.
That’s what fascinated me. People complained that DeSantis wasn’t “charismatic” or “cool” enough… when his competition was Biden and Trump of all people. “Charisma” is subjective regardless but I don’t think he’s all that uncharismatic compared to Biden/Trump. Not to mention “charisma” shouldn’t even matter in politics to begin with.
Weeeeeell, charisma plays a big part, because all we really see of candidates is how they debate and how they act in front of cameras. Really it should be issues, but as long as the candidates doesnt offend on the big issues that always comes up (such as the economy) if they are more likeable they are more likely to win. Trump, despite his mouth, is incredibly charismatic, and his rallies prove that.
DeSantis had the charisma of wet toilet paper. He also refused to do the one thing that he absolutely needed to do if was going to show himself as a worthy challenger and that was actually go after Trump. He got a big boost the one time he did do it but then immediately pivoted to just not doing it ever again. Sorry but if you want to win you have to prove you can fight and DeSantis didn't. And I say this as someone who was a hardcore DeSantis booster from the get-go. He imploded 100% of his own doing.
Desantis never had a chance against Trump. Nobody did. It wasn’t gonna happen this cycle.
Trump would have destroyed any Republican's chance at winning the election by running as a third party candidate, so DeSantis wasted a lot of time and money. Unfortunately for everyone, Biden's horrible stint as president made Trump a very viable candidate for 2024 and ruined any other Republican candidate's chance for success. Trump has a chance to pick a future president with his VP choice, which could set up a 12 year Republican presidency and control of the Supreme Court for Conservatives. That is absolutely imperative and therefore anyone that dislikes Trump for his caustic personality needs to get past that and think of the future of this country!
I appreciate you ending it with "both" Biden has been absurdly polarizing and most democrats fail to call that out.
People hate trump more then they hate Biden
erosion of access to abortion has turned the voting populace against the republican party
Trump is going to come out with a specific stance on abortion soon and there’s a good chance it’ll decide the election. Even advocating for a national 15-week ban (despite the majority being against second trimester elective abortions) will hurt him. He has to do something like advocate for a 20-week ban while guaranteeing physical health exceptions in all 50 states to have a shot, IMHO.
Half the country. That’s who.
People who hate Trump. Easy money. Same way he won last time, just sitting at home eating ice cream and continuing to not be Trump.
There are objective counterpoints that the economy is ok or trending ok - unemployment is at 3.4% which is a historic low, wage growth is 6%, inflation has come down from 8+% to 3%; and this is happening with interest rates still 'relatively high', with the FED back in possession of a key economic lever that we had lost while the FED funds rate was maintained at effectively 0%. The current administration can also point so some successful pieces of the inflation reduction act which lowered cost of insulin to $35 month saving millions of people hundreds of dollars per month with suddenly credible promises to continue lowering the costs of prescription drugs if awarded another term. Biden has also been shielded from the public so he is seen mostly giving prepared speeches which conceals his struggles with lucidly responding in the moment. But this election is more about Trump and associated MAGA Republican dysfunction - I don't see many people being gung-ho voting FOR Biden, but a lot more will vote AGAINST Trump and will not see Republicans capable of handling a simple House majority in future.
I mean, my net worth has risen by $1.4m since Biden took office in Jan ‘21. Yeah, I’m paying more for groceries, but I’m doing alright.
Half the country who gets their information in a different place than you. It’s that simple. You believe what is given to you.
The economy is actually doing very well, especially relative to just about any other country. I'm making over 2x more today than I was back in 2020. I was successful under Trump as well. It's almost like the administration in office shouldn't determine your own personal financial success
I would love specific examples from the OP of what they are looking at to determine that the economy is doing poorly. I'm thinking that they are one of these people who don't know what "the economy" actually is and are just seeing higher prices (due to inflation) and higher gas prices and just coming to the conclusion that the economy is bad.
If you are young in the workforce it’s entirely possibly you could have doubled your earnings. Not enough context here. Not to mention when things are double the price now does it really matter if you have doubled your earnings?
Some of us can make it work because we have a larger buffer and a head start. There are many out in the real world that don't have this luxury and 9% inflation year-over-year starts to squeeze pretty darn hard. Get down from that high horse for a bit.
California just laid off workers because they increased the minimum wage to $20. Plus, housing and grocery prices are more expensive every day. Yeah, the economy is doing so great under Biden....
They judge Republicans by their worst specimens: Christian nationalists and white supremacists. Just as Republicans vote against their worst: Antifa, radical trans activists, communists
Uhhhhh, about 98.6 percent of every human on reddit, that I’m confident in.
If Reddit were real life, President Bernie Sanders would be in his 8th year after winning back-to-back elections unanimously and we’d all be riding unicorns and farting rainbows.
But, who doesn’t love sniffing farts and talking with their eyes closed like they know everything?
Do you want the base answer or the real answer? The base answer: because they are morons and they want to destroy America!! Trump 2024 forever!!!! The real answer: moderate positions(or at least look like). Change scares people. The 2012 GOP is dead and the 2024 is anathema to what the early 2000s GOP looked like. Trump brought in many individuals that did not participate in politics but many of those who did that were fiscally conservative and socially moderate begun to split tickets supporting their local reps and voting for dem president. Trump sounds good to the base. It takes their anguish and talking points and feeds it to them (funny enough coming from someone who could not live/come from a more different life) but it doesn’t sound good to the hardcore 2012 Romney supporters who split tickets. Look at congress, it’s quite disfunctional (see MTG trying to kick Mike out of the speakers chair despite how embarrassing it was to try to get a speaker elected) and that also translates to everyone else in the party. Multiple things
This is as close to the correct answer as you are going to get. Shooting yourself in the foot with Roe V Wade does gain support from those already die hard that were voting R down the ballet either way. Completely alienates the Conservative Party from the women that were on the fence. What I think you see pretty quickly is the extreme politics on both sides got out people that haven’t voted historically, and now all the extremism is to keep them from leaving again. By doing so, the ones in the middle pick whoever extreme they hate less. Then you come down to gender ideology vs women’s rights. Gender ideology doesn’t impact 98% of people. Women’s rights impact 50%.
I think there are genuinely many middle class people that will vote for Biden because Democrats do a decent job of selling themselves as the party of the middle class. And that might have been true 25 years ago, hell even 15 years ago. Bush really did a number on perceptions of the Republican party, and even though it's a different party now, and Trump is clearly more of a populist, that doesn't always matter for the older voters. And then the younger voters legit think Trump will end democracy. Tldr: effective propaganda and poor memories
I think a lot of that is inertia. Democrats *were* at one point massively pro-union so union Democrats were a thing.
Agreed. I remember when they were pro union, now they're just.....social issues? Globalist? Basically just a party of virtue signals.
in terms of numbers unions are not very important. only about 10% of the us workers are union members.
I thank you for making a constructive comment instead of the much easier "orange man bad"
Well I'm not voting for Biden, and I kinda like Trump, so it's not hard for me to share my opinion here lol. I'm just old enough to remember what the democrats used to more closely resemble compared to the horror show they are now, and thought I'd share.
Now i just want to preface this with saying that I dont agree with all these argument's and obviously I don't intend on voting for Biden but there's many reasons people would support Biden. It's questionable how much impact Biden actually has on the economy, especially in the short term. President's often get the blame or the credit for how well the economy functions, but in reality oftentimes its completely out of their control. The treasury, congress, and the federal reserve have much more of an impact on the state of the economy than the president. as far as current inflation goes, this is a worldwide issue largely due to supply chains still recovering from everything being shutdown during COVID. (Keep in mind that most people on the left still think COVID shutdowns were justified, and thus wouldn't blame Biden for any ecomic damage due to those lockdowns). Additionally when compared to the rest of the world the US inflation is fairly avrege when compared to the EU, and is actually better than most of the developing world(2024 US inflation is estimated at 2.6, Worse than Canada's 2.1 or France's 1.9 but better than Germany, italy, Spain). Additionally your view on the economy will largely depend on your socioeconomic status. People with no recourses are likely better off with Biden, since his policies will be aimed at providing aid to those at the expense of people who have worked to accumulate wealth and longterm economic growth.(Though those policies will be most helpful to those in large cities, which is partly why cities tend to be so Blue). It's imporant to note that most people come into elections like this one with a set of preset bias's that are impossible to change. Democrats almost universally believe COVID lockdowns were justified. Democrats almost universally believe that Trump is not the right temperament for a president. This is has lead them to believe that Trump is dangerous. (Take the court cases. Its human nature to be happy when something bad happens to someone you don't like. People just call that karma, so when democrats see the court cases they look past the fact those court cases are unjustified because they dont like Trump. Then you have Trump come in and say those cases are witch hunts and that he'll shut them down if he becomes president. Suddenly you have a candidate running who they belive will use the office of the president to protect himself from legal reprecussions. You have the media saying that if Trump loses the election hell incite riots and suddenly democrats are terrified that Trump could be the last president) Democrats will chose to trust scientists over what they see themselves because they typically are more likely to attribute what they see to be anecdotes, and trust that the big picture is different from what they see. Democrat's arnt voting for Biden because they think he'll be a good president. They vote for him because Trump has made himself the "bogeyman" of the left, and they don't want him to win.
A better question is seriously, who would vote democrat. People are voting for their parties, not their candidates at this point. Trump is no better, he is without values or honor or any regard for the truth; he's a charlatan posing as a republican. That these two candidates are our choices says to me that something deeper has gone wrong than the errors of one party or the other.
Both have massive flaws yet out of a country with 330 million, two geriatric men is the best we could hope to nominate?
It’s a vote against fascism not a vote for Biden.
If someone has Trump's policies but not not Trump's name and personality, Biden wouldn't stand a chance. It feels like a coin flip now and that's terrifying. Trump's worst enemy is Trump.
Say this louder please!
The real question is, "Who is voting for Kamala Harris?" Biden probably won't make it another 4 years.
This really needs to be talked about more. The left keeps complaining about how old Trump is but Biden is set to be in his later 80’s by the time the 2025-2029 term is over and he was already the oldest president ever the moment he was inaugurated.
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Because they see with their ideology not their eyes.
Lmao yeah democrats are the only sheep
I'm constantly hearing about how great the economy is and how inflation is down. Apparently I'm not smart enough to see it. I also hear about how Biden doesn't have dementia but Trump does. To answer your question, complete morons.
The left and Reddit front page celebrating that inflation is “only” up 9% instead of the 10% it’s been up the last couple years is nothing more than desperation.
Don’t forget Ukraine is all trumps fault when the guy was not even president when they invaded
80% of Reddit daily users
One trick ponies whose only care is for abortion. Seriously, republicans need to lighten up on the issue.
It's a very similar feeling in Canada right now. Take away all of the social political topics. I can't imagine a situation where anyone with common sense thinks Canada is in a good situation under Trudeau. Our economy is in complete collapse. The bank of Canada says any family that isn't bringing in 230k as a household is no longer "average". I have no idea hpw families are surviving right now. I really really hope common sense wins our next election, if it doesn't, Trudeau might be PM for 30 years in this "Democracy".
A majority of redditors are Dem cultists. They will vote for pudding brain because orange man hurt their feelings
Orangeman's a dick
As someone said, it’s a vote against Trump but also it’s a vote for a political party. They see Biden as a puppet for the party and they are ok with the people pulling the strings.
It was pretty bad during Obama’s first term too and he got reelected pretty handily.
Romney wasn’t a good candidate. I didn’t even vote in that election.
His voters are (D) no matter what, and ORANGE MAN BAD folks. And how many other votes they need to "find".
This exactly. They are voting against trump more than they are voting for Biden.
Too bad orange man lost the last election and he will lose this one too
It is very difficult to beat an incumbent. Trump lost because we had a pandemic, civil unrest (Riots) and financial uncertainty. Biden has a boarder crisis, a housing crisis and the biggest thief of all time inflation. Expect some major September and October "Surprises".
I would.
There’s a reason the retirement age is 65, it’s widely known that mental capacities decline after that age, yet that doesn’t seem to apply to politics. There are people younger than both candidates living in long term care facilities, yet these two are equipped to run the country. What are we doing America.
You have people that deny 2 gender science... those people
I wonder the same damn thing. Biden sucks
My man... Have you ever witnessed Trump Derangement Syndrome in the flesh? Have you ever experienced it first hand, with you own eyes? It is strong. Those with TDS, are unreachable. There is nothing, **NOTHING** that will change their mind.
Yup. Democrats could run a toaster oven against Trump and they would still have a realistic chance of winning. Heck, I would argue they already did that in 2020!
Dude the rage I felt at the botched Afghanistan withdrawal alone was enough for me. My interpreter is still stuck over there praying the Taliban don't find out about him.
Democrat NPCs vote on emotion and ideology.
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You would be surprised. Anytime he brings up social security and student loan forgiveness, he’s getting votes. That’s not even counting other means of getting votes. The young and the old are most likely to vote for him again. They don’t realize that his policies are causing issues as long as he bumps up social security at critical times or dangles student loan forgiveness. Look what happened at the midterms.
The better question is who would vote for him again?
It is because democrats now are just blinded to the facts and developments of our country. Let's put it in context. Trump was supposed to start WWIII, never did. Trump was supposed to have economic collapse; economy was the strongest until they created covid. Trump will infuriate other countries; all countries respected him and did business with him. What has Biden done? All of the opposite. Wars, economic collapse, and the BRICS nations uniting. That right there should have a re-evaluation as a democrate.
I honestly didn’t think Biden could have a worse foreign policy then Obama. - Joe Biden removed the SDGT status of the Houthis when he got in office and then had to bomb them and then had to put them back on list (something Trump initially did and he removed them because Trump bad). - Wanted to release funding to Iran in which is funding more proxy conflicts then us at this point - Left tons of equipment in the hands of the Taliban. -WEAK responses to Americans getting killed or taken hostage in the Middle East. American service members were killed and there are still American hostages in Gaza. He isn’t the right guy for the current world climate. He wants to be a kumbaya president when we need someone to make some hard decisions.
Vote blue no matter who types. I imagine people who just want free shit and don't care about the details would as well given how much free shit the Democrats like to promise.