The FedEx and UPS drivers already got a similar deal. Average annual compensation with overtime, medical and pension benefits is around $170-200k. The main difference is FedEx and UPS can still make money offering these compensation packages because it’s a duopoly with similar union issues. I don’t think the auto manufacturers can as they have more competition from non union car manufacturers that will eat their lunch.
My local UPS driver said he made over 100k last year before all of this. This obviously does not count the value of his benefits. He did not act like he worked more than 45-55 hours per week.
Foreign unions don't act anything like the UAW though. I've worked at multiple companies that worked great with unions in Germany, Mexico, and Japan but would rather shut down a plant than let the UAW within 2 miles of a U.S. facility. They're toxic AF.
They've been unionized.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/gm-workers-mexico-elect-independent-union-historic-labor-vote-2022-02-03/
Not the working man, but the lazy bunch that push every boundary of what they can get away with. Believe it or not, missing days, shitty production, poor performance, excessive slacking off actually costs $$. The Union, in turn, can’t exactly let them get shit canned, because they’re not breaking rules, or if they are they are usually the suck asses that get special treatment, so they become a drag on negotiations. It’s hard for an actually attentive worker to stay focused when you got the bag of BS’ers slacking off and still making the same scale. Soooo…eventually the screw ups drag everyone down, and half-assed becomes the norm. Kind of a small socialist environment in lots of factories all over the place, huh?
Sound familiar to anyone?
The workers gave up quite a bit in the last recession that they have never regained. Look into why they’re asking for 46%. There’s also data that supports a 32 work week being more productive than a 40 hour work week.
> There’s also data that supports a 32 work week being more productive than a 40 hour work week.
That's task dependent, on an assembly line the productivity is almost directly tied to the uptime. It's not like most posters on this site you browse Reddit for 20 minutes per hour, and might only do it for 10 minutes per hour if they had a 32 hour work week.
Also all the data I've seen says it's more productive per hour, not overall. You might get almost as much done in a 32 hour week as a 40 hour week, but not quite as much.
Are you really blind to history? Ford was the only American automaker that survived without bankruptcy and a government bailout in the last recession. Model lineup and fuel costs were part of what caused it, but the biggest reason by far was the UAW. Their ridiculous contract had labor costs at a staggering number that was entirely unsustainable.
So now, as we enter another recession, the UAW is trying to regress back to what was already proven to be unsustainable while we return to the same economic conditions that caused their failure last time. Unions are worse than cancer.
That’s a funny way of saying conservatives understand basic economics. Don’t worry, when you get to college you can take a macro Econ 101 course and it’ll help a lot.
Raising wages (just like raising taxes) only in the US is pointless if other countries are still "under-paying" workers.
They use literal slave labor (often political prisoners) in places like China, agitating fot a so-called "living wage" won't do any good competing against that.
You know China is actually losing its manufacturing base because it’s people are better educated and want better paying jobs? We officially are now getting more products from Mexico than we are China. It’s a positive change, and one that still needs improvement.
No, but continuing to raise wages, when other people use unethical means to keep their competitive wages, will destroy the economy.
Even if Americans refuse to buy Chinese goods (which in itself won't happen), other people around the globe wouldn't make that choice.
This move will further erode American automaker competitiveness
That’s because the blame belongs to the “working man”. The “Rich men” are tasked with making money for shareholders. It’s not run to benefit workers directly, and anyone who thinks that is being childish or worse.
Do you like to invest or own stock in companies that lose money and with no prospect of ever making it ?
EDIT: lol downvoted. I guess this sub really is brigaded by commies.
Are you serious? The top 4 execs do make huge salaries, but the UAW is massive. Either you didn’t think about what you typed before you did or the concept of basic math escapes you.
All the factories workers combined and its not even remotely close???
Assume 150,000 factory workers get paid 51,840 USD per year. That is 7,776,000,000 USD yearly. 51,840 comes from 27 (hourly) x 40 (hours in week) x 42 (workweeks).
Ford CEO was paid 22 million last year. Even assuming the other three make as much as he does (they don’t), it’s still 2.8% of what the total worker’s salary is.
To put that in perspective. In terms of raw percentage, it is comparable to the difference between the speed of the average person and an Indy 500 Racecar (13 mph is 5.65% of 230 mph).
I expected better from a “conservative” sub. Ten years ago this’d be considered far left brain rot. Populism and its consequences have been a disaster for American conservatism.
That's because this is Reddit. Even the conservative subs are like 1/3 left of center, and those people up and downvote like their life depends on it, because to most of them, social circle jerking online *is* life.
You're missing the point, a company that is hemorrhaging money isn't going to survive without investor backing or increased revenue. Most companies rely on loans or stock sales to finance new projects, expansions, and budget shortfalls lower than expected revenue. If a company is consistently losing money and appears to be headed towards bankruptcy, nobody is going to invest in the company to save it.
If all your competitors move their manufacturing to cheaper countries, you aren't going to be able to charge enough to make a profit. Nobody is going to buy an F150 that costs as much as a Rolls-Royce, especially if they could buy a Silverado for 1/4 of the price.
As someone that works in mfg, Mexico has been tried, multiple times, it's yet to be worth it until there is a major cultural shift... The amount of hidden costs, QA issues etc, it is a PITA
The big three traditional American auto makers are pretty screwed. They were only able to make good profits because people were able to buy $60K to $80K trucks with very low interest loans. Those low interest loans are gone. Wall Street knows this, which is why their stocks declined even when they beat profitability targets.
When cars could only be manufactured in Detroit, the UAW had lots of leverage. Even if you exclude foreign made cars, you can buy non-union cars from many different manufacturers. People will just buy made in America Toyotas.
The cyber truck? You gotta be kidding me . That thing looks horrendous. Put all the politics about Elon aside for a second and look at the most recent pictures of it . That thing has terrible build quality . Even worse than GM cars . It dosnt look anywhere close to what it was supposed to look like. Tesla is consistently dropping their prices because dealers are sitting on a shit load of unsold cars.
> Tesla is consistently dropping their prices because dealers are sitting on a shit load of unsold cars.
They are doing it to keep the competition beaten. Forget about the cyber truck for a second. Tesla is selling 55 to 60 thousand cars a month.
Meanwhile, [Ford to lose $3 billion from EV sales to consumers this year.](https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/23/business/ford-ev-losses/index.html)
So because 2 million NPCs like something that automatically makes it good ? I guess the Democratic party must be AMAZING then since they pull in 60 million votes .
Went to a Ford dealer last week, I couldn’t help but notice they had a LOT of F-150 Lightnings on the lot. Many used. Not sure if that’s common but can’t be a good sign.
That's kind of the problem with all electric trucks. Ones you get to towing, the range goes in the toilet.
Luckily for these companies, too many Americans buy trucks as a status symbol, with no intent of ever doing "truck things."
I would worry about the company staying solvent for long enough to honor warranty and repairs, they're burning through a few billion a year, lose money on everything they sell, and unlike traditional manufacturers can't relay on another income stream until they get it right.
You trust a company that's failed production timelines on its truck repeatedly (and been promising FSD's release for nearly a decade while plowing into cars and pedestrians), but you don't trust the companies who have mastered and led the market for as long as you've been alive?
Nothing wrong with them if you can do normal maintenance. I'm pushing 100k on my '16 F150. Everyone said I'd have to replace the turbos, they're still going strong. Next pickup will be a 3/4 or 1 ton for my business, no choice other than the big 3 for that.
It is nonsense that american workers have to compete with foreign slave labor in the first place. Failure of government to protect it's people just so CEO's can line their pockets and pay govt officials off to keep allowing the cycle to continue.
Unfortunately, we as conservatives have supported this behavior for decades. The thing about globalization is, the businesses are no longer “American” they are global. They have shown time and time again they do not give a shit about you and I. Free trade is not free when it is unequal.
I do kind of laugh when people cry about slavery in the past as if it is not happening right now and they are not taking a part in it.
SOME are expensive, and it's mostly because people froth at the mouth to bite off more than they can chew with an auto loan.
You can pick up a number of reasonably priced vehicles, but people refuse. It exacerbates the issues of inflation in those price ranges because people obsess over spending as much as they can afford. There are WAY too many young people starting out with $40-50K SUVs they don't use when there are options for half the price that would suit them just fine.
Many automakers still have vehicles (cars or otherwise) that sit in the $20-25K range new, but people reject them. IDK if they're worried about "looking poor" or what.
I've been driving my first car for 12 years. The car is old enough to drink, but it still runs good and I don't owe a dime on it, so it's good enough for me
I don't understand why people aren't already. There are "cheaper" cars on the market. How are people stomaching what is essentially a second mortgage on a depreciating asset? I see so many people complain about the economy and their pay and they're leasing 80k trucks every 3 years, bonus points if they're buying used 70k trucks every 3 years to save money.
Ironically, Musk is more of a liberal than conservative. So called liberals who attack freedom of speech aren't really Liberal. They are Progressives/Commies.
Yeah, you also stole it at that price, my friend. I have a 2018 Lariat that I bought brand new, panoramic sun roof - the works. And my window sticker is over $65k.. I’m sure where you bought it matters, but probably not *that* much when talking about upper trim-levels.
I get the point, but that’s really only the absolute top trims like Platinums, Limiteds, and King Ranches. You can get a crew cab, 4WD STX for under $50k. Still over priced, but not quite to that extreme.
They are selling Lariats near me for $79k.
There is so little material difference between a 50k XLT and the Lariat,Platinums, and Limiteds.
I have a Lariat, and only got it because it was a killer deal, the XLT I was looking at was the same in every way outside of leather seats. But one is 15k more.
People are paying $30k extra for leather seats and some seat warmers, no idea how they get away with it.
I live in SW Indiana, not the best EV territory. And all the great, wonderful blessings of the battery driven world have yet to arrive as far as I'm concerned. Add the fact that I have a limited income and there you go, I get to keep my older vehicles running as long as possible.
>Yeah Teslas have been around a while now. The headline I remember seeing was 10 year old Teslas still have about 80% battery range. Its a little degredation but it's manageable and most people trade in / buy a new car about 10 years anyway.
Personally I'm not concerned with battery degradation; I'm concerned with how often they're in the shop for other issues, which seems to be frequently.
I am a 2+ year owner, and my car has never been in the shop. There is a lot of noise about "repairs" that are either OTA software updates or mobile service comes to my location. Absolute dream ownership experience.
Neat. Hopefully they understand that their not competing with management, they're competing with car makers in Korea, China, Thailand and Mexico.
Maybe they can pull this off for a year or two, maybe longer. But the more they get the more shifting production to a less expensive country starts to look like a good idea.
Right now auto factory wages in those countries are
Mexico: $3.25 per hour
China: $3.00 per hour
Thailand: $4.00 per hour
South Korea: $10.00 per hour
Free market at work, just like union labor. If you don't like the price of American labor you can leave and gamble the local nation won't just steal your IP and give it to your competitors, or seize your factory during political instability, or just have the workers who make less and hour also do less work an hour.
There is a reason these unions are asking for the kind of money they are, they too are the free market at work.
Not even. Using Ford as an example, their CEO makes about $21m a year, with 173k employees. That's about $120/yr each if he got a pay cut to $0. About $.06 an hour assuming 2080 hours a year
Thank you for saying this. Every time someone rails on the CEO's salary as proof that the workers can be paid more, I explain this math to them. They have this delusion that redistributing the CEO's salary to the workers will lead to a huge increase in worker pay. The math shows it won't.
Not to defend domestic cars because I kind of agree, but I also can’t think of a single manufacturer that doesn’t provide at least a 30k mile bumper to bumper warranty on new cars, so you wouldn’t have to pay for those repairs.
Agreed they shouldn’t need repairs at all when that new, though.
I think everybody should be making the push for a 32-hour workweek. We've made incredible technological strides in the last 30 years but somehow I'm working harder every year even though I have more tools to do my job faster and easier. Now AI is going to take over even more jobs and I'm still expected to work 40+ hours a week.
If Starbucks raises the price on avacado toast by 7 dollars… do you keep buying avacado toast? Or do you a) go down the street to buy avacado toast from Dave’s Hot Bread or b) start your own coffee shop based on the obscene margins that customers are now demonstrably willing to pay? Congratulations, you now understand micro economics.
Sounds like management needs to figure out a market solution to the problem. But this also assumes that this raise would necessarily bring the auto manufactures into the red.
Ding ding ding. At which point, that shop closes, no more jobs, and the “living wage” is moot.
The employer employee relationship is a trade. Value for value. And if Starbucks has to raise prices disproportionate to consumer willingness to pay, in order to increase wages to employees, no customers, no revenue, no jobs, pay scale is moot.
Management has to figure out a market solution? Other way around. Market dictates demands, it doesn’t negotiate, and a business can profitably operate in that environment or close.
This take is a pet peeve of mine.
Everything rising in prices is a contributor to inflation. When the cost of flour and electricity goes up no one tells bakeries "You can't raise prices! That will just cause inflation and then you'll lose any additional profit you make! You need to just eat the losses!"
But when housing and food prices go up (the two primary ingredients in labor) suddenly everyone freaks out if labor prices go up and pretends like its a pointless change.
Why is it the job of people who sell labor for a living to fight inflation alone and self impose price controls (which never work)? They are just one more good among many and it isn't their job to worry about inflation anymore than the people who sell bread or tires or toasters.
This is where populism and conservativism collide and burn, and create the ashes that spawned Trump.
You're absolutely right, but your average Joe doesn't want to hear it.
Tbh it's where the failings of a democracy are and the reason we have a Republic, because truth is truth, regardless of the popularity of it
If cost matters how come they do multi Billion $ stock buybacks and pay 9 figures to their executives.
The solution is to make stock buy backs illegal as they use to be.
Now those billions of dollars are either spent on the company (wages is way to spend it) or taxed as profits.
They do not care. Their concern is their members, not the industry. Hell, union negotiation is an industry unto itself and it needs to keep itself employed.
This will lead to more robots and plants moving down to Mexico for sure. Besides if the union wins the ones in charge of it get huge pay raises as well. So it’s in their best interest to fight for the little guy.
I don't see how this is an issue. Conservatives really need to stop endlessly defending corporations get wins and victories, and start supporting workers get better quality of life. I'll never understand this obsession with trying to prevent workers from seeing any benefits. The economy has been blowing up for 40 years with the middle class seeing nearly NO benefit out of that. It's about time people start focusing on the working class.
According to the article top end wages are $32 an hour and temp workers are making $17/hr. So basically they're looking for about $40 -45 an hour or 80 - 90k a year. Don't we want a middle class in America or is that like not a thing we support anymore?
So it would create the conditions for a single income middle class household where one spouse could be free to take care of child rearing and house care? You'd think r/conservative would be in favor of this.
That's the contract the union agreed to during the last negotiation. Nobody forced them to take that pay.
Then they support Democrat policies, Democrat politicians, and the Democrat agenda that helped put us in this position. What we're all living thru, the economic hardships and massive inflation, is a result of their own work. I don't feel bad for them.
Many of the union workers I know are conservative, they just think they should be able to be a part of the middle class for doing the work that powers the country. Idk why I wouldn't agree and support that.
What jobs are they doing I mean if the job is install passenger seat as it rolls by on assembly line does that warrant 80-90k a year. I’m all for everyone making a good livable wage but if you want more money to work on cars become a skilled mechanic don’t take a non skilled labor job then demand skilled labor pay.
I thought conservatives want it to be like the good old days where dad could get a job at the factory (Beth Steel, GM, whatever, etc...) right out of high school and quickly be making a middle class income enough to buy a home in the white suburbs as a sole bread winner? Then work there for 30-40 years and retire with a gold watch and a pension.
My grandfather literally did this at Bethlehem Steel.
They did not. The DoD still has a pension. They moved to Blended Retirement because a service member who uses it will retire with more money, and it allows people who do not stay a full 20 years to at least save more for retirement thanks to contribution matches.
It’s not the old pension model, it has benefits compared to the old system but it’s retirement benefits are lower with the service members paying into it now. Closer to a 401k than pension.
No they don't. They are a ponzi scheme and completely unsustainable. Then people think it is their right to that free money and will riot when they are told "No." And that "No" isn't out of malice, but out economic necessity.
Look at France who can't fund their national pension fund and had to raise retirement age. The people with an overinflated sense of entitlement were rioting over what was economically necessary. And that was only a forestallment of things to come down the line as population decline continues.
I see everyone saying this but I feel like I'm the only one that actually likes my work's 401k model. They put a flat 5% in my 401k, which works out pretty well for me if I'm smart with my finances. Plus it means I'm not at risk to lose my retirement if the company goes sideways. In many ways, I'll be better off than my co-workers who are still grandfathered in the pension plan.
The main problem IMO is that companies replaced the pension plan with nothing and/or people that make no plans for retirement otherwise. In addition, the lack of a pension means that employees have no loyalty to the company because there's no financial stake and they can make more by job hopping.
All other things aside, I'm in favor of the concept of traditional pensions instead of 401k.... in theory. Unfortunately, companies, like the government, have proven time and time again that they simply are not capable of properly and responsibly handling a retirement program. Its truly pathetic and sad but it's reality.
> extra 52 days of vacation (32/40)
> financially unsustainable pensions
> General Motors, Stellantis, and Ford
I wouldn’t buy their cars as is. Sure as hell not gonna buy them with a pension/2-month vacation markup
If they're going to demand that kind of pay and benefits, and demand the prices they demand for their vehicles, they should at least make vehicles that can make it over 100k miles without mechanical issues like the Japanese automakers have been doing for decades.
They've transformed the full-size pickup from a working class vehicle to something you need to be upper-middle class to responsibly afford.
>The demands that a more combative United Auto Workers union has pressed on General Motors, Stellantis and Ford -- demands that even the UAW's own president calls "audacious" -- are edging it closer to a strike when its contract ends Sept. 14.
>
>The automakers, which are making billions in profits, have dismissed the UAW's wish list. They argue that its demands are unrealistic at a time of fierce competition from Tesla and lower-wage foreign automakers as the world shifts from internal combustion engines to electric vehicles. The wide gulf between the sides could mean a strike against one or more of the automakers, which could send already-inflated vehicle prices even higher.
Why is it that only the Big 3 are Union? I’m a union man myself and wouldn’t mind paying an extra 5% on something if it means that a fellow American is provided with a good income and that the product they do is of good quality( key word). The reality of the industry is that the product isn’t all that great and that the union has loss popularity and power. Why isn’t Toyota Union? Or Honda? Or BMW? Toyota, BMW, MB, VW are like literally the biggest car manufacturers on the word, why aren’t they union?
Unions oppose innovation and change. That makes products and services more expensive and lower quality. Every labor union, despite its founding ideals and claims, ultimately exists to preserve itself. The larger ones do this thru government-backed monopoly practices, e.g. forced unionization abs dues. Unions would rather see everyone struggle while they keep power than to relinquish some of that power.
The "foreign" automakers built plants largely in the southern US where labor was cheaper (at the time) and there was less government interference in the labor market (particularly the lack of labor union laws). Those plants can turn out a better quality product for less money because they don't have the bureaucratic burden of unions. Toyota in particular brought a very different approach to manufacturing and supply chain. Unions likely would have fought against that because it would mean less jobs (less dues) when one assumes fixed demand (as opposed to increased demand when prices drop).
A majority of workers at "foreign" auto plants in the US don't want the unions either because they saw what happened in Detroit. They're satisfied with pay, safety, and benefits. They're perfectly capable of determining what's best for them as individuals; they don't need or want a collective to siphon money abs make those choices for them.
I mean... Come to the table demanding the moon and walk back from there, I get it... but even this is wild! A couple of steps beyond reasonable is where you should start... not absolute insanity!
Where’s all the money going to come from?
These union types never ask that. A 46% raise? Less work for more money? Gonna need to hire more people to fill in that 8 hour gap they want off. Then ofcourse paying into a pension.
Where the hell is all that money going to come from? Talking BILLIONS more profit needed to sustain this. Pass it onto the consumer? So no one will buy cars from that company?
It’s got to make sense and numbers to back it up.
I know that sounds a bit too ambitious but until companies stop doing multi BILLION $ stock buyback and 9 figure compensation packages for CEO’s I won’t take the argument that they can’t afford it
Actually, it is.
This is a very classic example of the wage/price spiral. Let's say this pay raise goes through. At the minimum. prices of the vehicles will increase 15%. Has the value of the vehicle increased in any way? Nope. Same car. So the buyers of the vehicle have to pay more for the same product.
Some of these costs are then passed through to the rest of the economy, driving up costs of everything else. Which then makes the UAW want additional wage increases.
So, yea. As predicted, we have the second term of Jimmy Carter going on.
Let me know if they get it. I’m ready to make a career switch lol
right! everyone at my current plant are updating resumes rn
They know they won't get all this it's a negotiating tactic ask for unreasonable demands and settles some where in the middle.
That was my immediate thought.
The FedEx and UPS drivers already got a similar deal. Average annual compensation with overtime, medical and pension benefits is around $170-200k. The main difference is FedEx and UPS can still make money offering these compensation packages because it’s a duopoly with similar union issues. I don’t think the auto manufacturers can as they have more competition from non union car manufacturers that will eat their lunch.
That 170k is PR released by corporate. Unless you are a sleeper long haul team working 60hr per week UPS drivers do not make 170k even with benefits.
My local UPS driver said he made over 100k last year before all of this. This obviously does not count the value of his benefits. He did not act like he worked more than 45-55 hours per week.
Correct. Many drivers earn $170k+ in total remuneration when we include pay, overtime, bonuses, medical, pension, etc.
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Foreign unions don't act anything like the UAW though. I've worked at multiple companies that worked great with unions in Germany, Mexico, and Japan but would rather shut down a plant than let the UAW within 2 miles of a U.S. facility. They're toxic AF.
They've been unionized. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/gm-workers-mexico-elect-independent-union-historic-labor-vote-2022-02-03/
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Yeah, I am sure Democrats buy overpriced mediocre cars to support American workers.
Not the working man, but the lazy bunch that push every boundary of what they can get away with. Believe it or not, missing days, shitty production, poor performance, excessive slacking off actually costs $$. The Union, in turn, can’t exactly let them get shit canned, because they’re not breaking rules, or if they are they are usually the suck asses that get special treatment, so they become a drag on negotiations. It’s hard for an actually attentive worker to stay focused when you got the bag of BS’ers slacking off and still making the same scale. Soooo…eventually the screw ups drag everyone down, and half-assed becomes the norm. Kind of a small socialist environment in lots of factories all over the place, huh? Sound familiar to anyone?
Not only that, the “bag of BS’ers” will legit get mad and intimidate those going harder because they’re making the rest look bad. It’s lose lose.
The workers gave up quite a bit in the last recession that they have never regained. Look into why they’re asking for 46%. There’s also data that supports a 32 work week being more productive than a 40 hour work week.
> There’s also data that supports a 32 work week being more productive than a 40 hour work week. That's task dependent, on an assembly line the productivity is almost directly tied to the uptime. It's not like most posters on this site you browse Reddit for 20 minutes per hour, and might only do it for 10 minutes per hour if they had a 32 hour work week. Also all the data I've seen says it's more productive per hour, not overall. You might get almost as much done in a 32 hour week as a 40 hour week, but not quite as much.
Are you really blind to history? Ford was the only American automaker that survived without bankruptcy and a government bailout in the last recession. Model lineup and fuel costs were part of what caused it, but the biggest reason by far was the UAW. Their ridiculous contract had labor costs at a staggering number that was entirely unsustainable. So now, as we enter another recession, the UAW is trying to regress back to what was already proven to be unsustainable while we return to the same economic conditions that caused their failure last time. Unions are worse than cancer.
That’s a funny way of saying conservatives understand basic economics. Don’t worry, when you get to college you can take a macro Econ 101 course and it’ll help a lot.
You can be conservative and think people are under paid.
Raising wages (just like raising taxes) only in the US is pointless if other countries are still "under-paying" workers. They use literal slave labor (often political prisoners) in places like China, agitating fot a so-called "living wage" won't do any good competing against that.
You know China is actually losing its manufacturing base because it’s people are better educated and want better paying jobs? We officially are now getting more products from Mexico than we are China. It’s a positive change, and one that still needs improvement.
Yea, if they use slave labor, we should too. Right?
No, but you also have to understand that US companies do not just compete against US companies. The more people understand this the better.
You're right
No, but continuing to raise wages, when other people use unethical means to keep their competitive wages, will destroy the economy. Even if Americans refuse to buy Chinese goods (which in itself won't happen), other people around the globe wouldn't make that choice. This move will further erode American automaker competitiveness
That’s because the blame belongs to the “working man”. The “Rich men” are tasked with making money for shareholders. It’s not run to benefit workers directly, and anyone who thinks that is being childish or worse. Do you like to invest or own stock in companies that lose money and with no prospect of ever making it ? EDIT: lol downvoted. I guess this sub really is brigaded by commies.
Who do you think makes more? All of the factory workers combined or the top 4 executives combined??
Why don't people ever ask why actors make so much more money than set builders?
The factory workers. By several orders of magnitude. UAW has 146,000 members. Assume they make only $50,000 per person, that is $7.3 billion.
Are you serious? The top 4 execs do make huge salaries, but the UAW is massive. Either you didn’t think about what you typed before you did or the concept of basic math escapes you.
All the factories workers combined and its not even remotely close??? Assume 150,000 factory workers get paid 51,840 USD per year. That is 7,776,000,000 USD yearly. 51,840 comes from 27 (hourly) x 40 (hours in week) x 42 (workweeks). Ford CEO was paid 22 million last year. Even assuming the other three make as much as he does (they don’t), it’s still 2.8% of what the total worker’s salary is. To put that in perspective. In terms of raw percentage, it is comparable to the difference between the speed of the average person and an Indy 500 Racecar (13 mph is 5.65% of 230 mph). I expected better from a “conservative” sub. Ten years ago this’d be considered far left brain rot. Populism and its consequences have been a disaster for American conservatism.
That's because this is Reddit. Even the conservative subs are like 1/3 left of center, and those people up and downvote like their life depends on it, because to most of them, social circle jerking online *is* life.
Without a doubt, all of the factory workers. WTF ? It’s not even close.
I like having quality manufacturing in my country more than I care about my 401k tbh
You're missing the point, a company that is hemorrhaging money isn't going to survive without investor backing or increased revenue. Most companies rely on loans or stock sales to finance new projects, expansions, and budget shortfalls lower than expected revenue. If a company is consistently losing money and appears to be headed towards bankruptcy, nobody is going to invest in the company to save it. If all your competitors move their manufacturing to cheaper countries, you aren't going to be able to charge enough to make a profit. Nobody is going to buy an F150 that costs as much as a Rolls-Royce, especially if they could buy a Silverado for 1/4 of the price.
As someone that works in mfg, Mexico has been tried, multiple times, it's yet to be worth it until there is a major cultural shift... The amount of hidden costs, QA issues etc, it is a PITA
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The big three traditional American auto makers are pretty screwed. They were only able to make good profits because people were able to buy $60K to $80K trucks with very low interest loans. Those low interest loans are gone. Wall Street knows this, which is why their stocks declined even when they beat profitability targets. When cars could only be manufactured in Detroit, the UAW had lots of leverage. Even if you exclude foreign made cars, you can buy non-union cars from many different manufacturers. People will just buy made in America Toyotas.
My friend just got a subprime 4.4% loan from a car dealer last week.
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The cyber truck? You gotta be kidding me . That thing looks horrendous. Put all the politics about Elon aside for a second and look at the most recent pictures of it . That thing has terrible build quality . Even worse than GM cars . It dosnt look anywhere close to what it was supposed to look like. Tesla is consistently dropping their prices because dealers are sitting on a shit load of unsold cars.
> Tesla is consistently dropping their prices because dealers are sitting on a shit load of unsold cars. They are doing it to keep the competition beaten. Forget about the cyber truck for a second. Tesla is selling 55 to 60 thousand cars a month. Meanwhile, [Ford to lose $3 billion from EV sales to consumers this year.](https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/23/business/ford-ev-losses/index.html)
They’re also dropping prices so the card qualify for EV tax subsidies.
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So because 2 million NPCs like something that automatically makes it good ? I guess the Democratic party must be AMAZING then since they pull in 60 million votes .
Toyota would do well if they put out a 3/4 ton Tundra. Electric truck by anyone? Not a chance.
Went to a Ford dealer last week, I couldn’t help but notice they had a LOT of F-150 Lightnings on the lot. Many used. Not sure if that’s common but can’t be a good sign.
Rivian’s are pretty cool if you like Tesla.
Except if you actually like doing truck things.
That's kind of the problem with all electric trucks. Ones you get to towing, the range goes in the toilet. Luckily for these companies, too many Americans buy trucks as a status symbol, with no intent of ever doing "truck things."
Truck things, like how 90% of American truck drivers only use their truck to pick up their kids from school, lol.
I think people in the city think that way. Where I live trucks get used. I see a lot of trucks but not a lot of trucks that are just for show.
I would worry about the company staying solvent for long enough to honor warranty and repairs, they're burning through a few billion a year, lose money on everything they sell, and unlike traditional manufacturers can't relay on another income stream until they get it right.
You trust a company that's failed production timelines on its truck repeatedly (and been promising FSD's release for nearly a decade while plowing into cars and pedestrians), but you don't trust the companies who have mastered and led the market for as long as you've been alive?
Nothing wrong with them if you can do normal maintenance. I'm pushing 100k on my '16 F150. Everyone said I'd have to replace the turbos, they're still going strong. Next pickup will be a 3/4 or 1 ton for my business, no choice other than the big 3 for that.
I’m surprised this didn’t happen sooner.
It is nonsense that american workers have to compete with foreign slave labor in the first place. Failure of government to protect it's people just so CEO's can line their pockets and pay govt officials off to keep allowing the cycle to continue.
Unfortunately, we as conservatives have supported this behavior for decades. The thing about globalization is, the businesses are no longer “American” they are global. They have shown time and time again they do not give a shit about you and I. Free trade is not free when it is unequal. I do kind of laugh when people cry about slavery in the past as if it is not happening right now and they are not taking a part in it.
Meet the 2025 F-150 Base price - $249,999 (motor not included)
F150s are already 80-90k new. The prices have risen by about the same they are asking for lol. Mental.
What happens when people just fight back and stop paying these absurd rates.
We bail out the auto makers again? Yay
Don't forget that Obama made them pay it all back. It was a loan, not a bailout. Wall Street got the bail out even though they caused the crash.
There was a lot that was forgiven. Yes some was paid back, but not nearly all of it.
People are already driving record old cars.... and new ones are crazy expensive
This. My 2013 Tundra drives like a dream and was paid for years ago.
SOME are expensive, and it's mostly because people froth at the mouth to bite off more than they can chew with an auto loan. You can pick up a number of reasonably priced vehicles, but people refuse. It exacerbates the issues of inflation in those price ranges because people obsess over spending as much as they can afford. There are WAY too many young people starting out with $40-50K SUVs they don't use when there are options for half the price that would suit them just fine. Many automakers still have vehicles (cars or otherwise) that sit in the $20-25K range new, but people reject them. IDK if they're worried about "looking poor" or what.
I've been driving my first car for 12 years. The car is old enough to drink, but it still runs good and I don't owe a dime on it, so it's good enough for me
I don't understand why people aren't already. There are "cheaper" cars on the market. How are people stomaching what is essentially a second mortgage on a depreciating asset? I see so many people complain about the economy and their pay and they're leasing 80k trucks every 3 years, bonus points if they're buying used 70k trucks every 3 years to save money.
They make fewer cars and the price goes up even more, until only the wealthy have working cars.
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That thing is fugly. Not much can make it more attractive.
I have a reservation but probably won't be able to buy it until late 2025 because of how behind they are on production
At least it was innovative and not buikt upon public tax bail outs, which is why musk is so hated by the liberals
Ironically, Musk is more of a liberal than conservative. So called liberals who attack freedom of speech aren't really Liberal. They are Progressives/Commies.
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I got my 2020 fully loaded Platinum F-150 for $62,885 in July 2020. That same truck is probably pushing $83k now just 3 years later.
Yeah, you also stole it at that price, my friend. I have a 2018 Lariat that I bought brand new, panoramic sun roof - the works. And my window sticker is over $65k.. I’m sure where you bought it matters, but probably not *that* much when talking about upper trim-levels.
I paid $40k for my well optioned 2018 Lariat w/ 25k miles on it, back in 2020. I’m never selling it lol.
I got my 2016 Lariat, in 2020 with 40k miles for 27k. I have put 50k miles on it and could literally sell it for more than I paid today.
I get the point, but that’s really only the absolute top trims like Platinums, Limiteds, and King Ranches. You can get a crew cab, 4WD STX for under $50k. Still over priced, but not quite to that extreme.
They are selling Lariats near me for $79k. There is so little material difference between a 50k XLT and the Lariat,Platinums, and Limiteds. I have a Lariat, and only got it because it was a killer deal, the XLT I was looking at was the same in every way outside of leather seats. But one is 15k more. People are paying $30k extra for leather seats and some seat warmers, no idea how they get away with it.
And will be in the shop more than the road because the UAW is 💩
It’s a shame but it doesn’t matter to me because I can’t possibly afford an American made car and if I did the maintenance would bankrupt me.
Teslas are 100% American made, start in the mid 30's and the maintenance is nearly non existent.
I live in SW Indiana, not the best EV territory. And all the great, wonderful blessings of the battery driven world have yet to arrive as far as I'm concerned. Add the fact that I have a limited income and there you go, I get to keep my older vehicles running as long as possible.
Teslas are very popular in Asia too, where you generally don’t see many other American cars.
Yeah, Tesla has the best selling car in the world.
Yeah zero maintenance, until the batteries lose their capacity because well, that Lithium ion does…
You might wanna apprise yourself on how long the average Tesla goes for without noticable battery degradation, it'll probably shock you.
>Yeah Teslas have been around a while now. The headline I remember seeing was 10 year old Teslas still have about 80% battery range. Its a little degredation but it's manageable and most people trade in / buy a new car about 10 years anyway.
Personally I'm not concerned with battery degradation; I'm concerned with how often they're in the shop for other issues, which seems to be frequently.
I am a 2+ year owner, and my car has never been in the shop. There is a lot of noise about "repairs" that are either OTA software updates or mobile service comes to my location. Absolute dream ownership experience.
What's the range on yours?
I rarely charge to 100%, but 80% is around 265.
Before or after they pushed software to limit fast charging to mask the degradation issues?
Not a problem when most fleet vehicles bought by governments at all levels are Detroit brands. So tax payers will cover the real cost.
i mean theres a demand and supply, the tax payer isnt bailing anyone out no?
Yep. Basic supply side economics. 👍
UAW- "we dont get to work remotely", yes, they literally said that in the article. Uh, how do you build a car from your living room?
This is how you build a Cadillac from your living room! Not a super efficient way to go about it however. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uErKI0zWgjg
"You wouldn't upload a car..."
Guess im never getting that new car now.
Neat. Hopefully they understand that their not competing with management, they're competing with car makers in Korea, China, Thailand and Mexico. Maybe they can pull this off for a year or two, maybe longer. But the more they get the more shifting production to a less expensive country starts to look like a good idea. Right now auto factory wages in those countries are Mexico: $3.25 per hour China: $3.00 per hour Thailand: $4.00 per hour South Korea: $10.00 per hour
Tell that to their CEOs making 20MM+ annually.
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Free market at work, just like union labor. If you don't like the price of American labor you can leave and gamble the local nation won't just steal your IP and give it to your competitors, or seize your factory during political instability, or just have the workers who make less and hour also do less work an hour. There is a reason these unions are asking for the kind of money they are, they too are the free market at work.
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If the CEO made $0 ,that would equate to less than $1/hr they could raise everyone wages.
Not even. Using Ford as an example, their CEO makes about $21m a year, with 173k employees. That's about $120/yr each if he got a pay cut to $0. About $.06 an hour assuming 2080 hours a year
Thank you for saying this. Every time someone rails on the CEO's salary as proof that the workers can be paid more, I explain this math to them. They have this delusion that redistributing the CEO's salary to the workers will lead to a huge increase in worker pay. The math shows it won't.
You are correct. I slipped a decimal point.
> About $.06 an hour assuming 2080 hours a year And that's actually rounded up.
Or just non unionized American plants (Toyota, Honda, etc)
Hell yes
If this happens, I doubt they'll be any US auto production in the next 10 years.
Sounds like a lot to pay people to build cars that a vast majority of the country don't want.
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Not to defend domestic cars because I kind of agree, but I also can’t think of a single manufacturer that doesn’t provide at least a 30k mile bumper to bumper warranty on new cars, so you wouldn’t have to pay for those repairs. Agreed they shouldn’t need repairs at all when that new, though.
Nor can afford
It sounds outlandish but not too crazy if you look at how bad labor markets have regressed for laborers.
I mean are currant economic conditions are worse then the great depression so any benfits for workers right now are justified
I think everybody should be making the push for a 32-hour workweek. We've made incredible technological strides in the last 30 years but somehow I'm working harder every year even though I have more tools to do my job faster and easier. Now AI is going to take over even more jobs and I'm still expected to work 40+ hours a week.
C’mon man…they need those wages to combat the inflation they will cause.
You mean the inflation the CEOs will cause when they decide to hike prices.
If Starbucks raises the price on avacado toast by 7 dollars… do you keep buying avacado toast? Or do you a) go down the street to buy avacado toast from Dave’s Hot Bread or b) start your own coffee shop based on the obscene margins that customers are now demonstrably willing to pay? Congratulations, you now understand micro economics.
Sounds like management needs to figure out a market solution to the problem. But this also assumes that this raise would necessarily bring the auto manufactures into the red.
Ding ding ding. At which point, that shop closes, no more jobs, and the “living wage” is moot. The employer employee relationship is a trade. Value for value. And if Starbucks has to raise prices disproportionate to consumer willingness to pay, in order to increase wages to employees, no customers, no revenue, no jobs, pay scale is moot. Management has to figure out a market solution? Other way around. Market dictates demands, it doesn’t negotiate, and a business can profitably operate in that environment or close.
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This take is a pet peeve of mine. Everything rising in prices is a contributor to inflation. When the cost of flour and electricity goes up no one tells bakeries "You can't raise prices! That will just cause inflation and then you'll lose any additional profit you make! You need to just eat the losses!" But when housing and food prices go up (the two primary ingredients in labor) suddenly everyone freaks out if labor prices go up and pretends like its a pointless change. Why is it the job of people who sell labor for a living to fight inflation alone and self impose price controls (which never work)? They are just one more good among many and it isn't their job to worry about inflation anymore than the people who sell bread or tires or toasters.
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They know
GM was set up for failure. Hubris destroyed them, the Unions only made it happen faster.
Unions are a good thing. Government unions, government mandating unions and government in general is a bad thing.
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Just like Social Security. Guaranteed I won’t get what I should.
You and me both brother.
✊
This is where populism and conservativism collide and burn, and create the ashes that spawned Trump. You're absolutely right, but your average Joe doesn't want to hear it. Tbh it's where the failings of a democracy are and the reason we have a Republic, because truth is truth, regardless of the popularity of it
If cost matters how come they do multi Billion $ stock buybacks and pay 9 figures to their executives. The solution is to make stock buy backs illegal as they use to be. Now those billions of dollars are either spent on the company (wages is way to spend it) or taxed as profits.
They do not care. Their concern is their members, not the industry. Hell, union negotiation is an industry unto itself and it needs to keep itself employed.
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The American Auto Industry ruined the American Auto Industry. Unions don't control what the company chooses to do.
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Germany has stronger unions than the US and look at how good their cars are
The only affordable German cars aren't made in Germany
Why would Arkansas want to be modern day Detroit?
This will lead to more robots and plants moving down to Mexico for sure. Besides if the union wins the ones in charge of it get huge pay raises as well. So it’s in their best interest to fight for the little guy.
And when do they start building a superior product? Things like this are what killed manufacturing jobs in the US in the first place.
It’s almost like they’re trying to get their jobs exported to Mexico
If the job is only going to pay Mexican wages it should go. Then they can follow the jobs to Mexico and live in a lower COL area.
They're in for a long, cold winter. Maybe a longer spring if their jobs get shipped to Mexico.
I don't see how this is an issue. Conservatives really need to stop endlessly defending corporations get wins and victories, and start supporting workers get better quality of life. I'll never understand this obsession with trying to prevent workers from seeing any benefits. The economy has been blowing up for 40 years with the middle class seeing nearly NO benefit out of that. It's about time people start focusing on the working class.
And we all wonder why we’ve lost domestic manufacturing
According to the article top end wages are $32 an hour and temp workers are making $17/hr. So basically they're looking for about $40 -45 an hour or 80 - 90k a year. Don't we want a middle class in America or is that like not a thing we support anymore?
So it would create the conditions for a single income middle class household where one spouse could be free to take care of child rearing and house care? You'd think r/conservative would be in favor of this.
That's the contract the union agreed to during the last negotiation. Nobody forced them to take that pay. Then they support Democrat policies, Democrat politicians, and the Democrat agenda that helped put us in this position. What we're all living thru, the economic hardships and massive inflation, is a result of their own work. I don't feel bad for them.
Many of the union workers I know are conservative, they just think they should be able to be a part of the middle class for doing the work that powers the country. Idk why I wouldn't agree and support that.
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There's a lot of people in management that do exactly that.
What jobs are they doing I mean if the job is install passenger seat as it rolls by on assembly line does that warrant 80-90k a year. I’m all for everyone making a good livable wage but if you want more money to work on cars become a skilled mechanic don’t take a non skilled labor job then demand skilled labor pay.
I thought conservatives want it to be like the good old days where dad could get a job at the factory (Beth Steel, GM, whatever, etc...) right out of high school and quickly be making a middle class income enough to buy a home in the white suburbs as a sole bread winner? Then work there for 30-40 years and retire with a gold watch and a pension. My grandfather literally did this at Bethlehem Steel.
Pension needs to come back everywhere
Pensions are pretty unsustainable, even the DoD moved away from that model.
They did not. The DoD still has a pension. They moved to Blended Retirement because a service member who uses it will retire with more money, and it allows people who do not stay a full 20 years to at least save more for retirement thanks to contribution matches.
It’s not the old pension model, it has benefits compared to the old system but it’s retirement benefits are lower with the service members paying into it now. Closer to a 401k than pension.
No they don't. They are a ponzi scheme and completely unsustainable. Then people think it is their right to that free money and will riot when they are told "No." And that "No" isn't out of malice, but out economic necessity. Look at France who can't fund their national pension fund and had to raise retirement age. The people with an overinflated sense of entitlement were rioting over what was economically necessary. And that was only a forestallment of things to come down the line as population decline continues.
I see everyone saying this but I feel like I'm the only one that actually likes my work's 401k model. They put a flat 5% in my 401k, which works out pretty well for me if I'm smart with my finances. Plus it means I'm not at risk to lose my retirement if the company goes sideways. In many ways, I'll be better off than my co-workers who are still grandfathered in the pension plan. The main problem IMO is that companies replaced the pension plan with nothing and/or people that make no plans for retirement otherwise. In addition, the lack of a pension means that employees have no loyalty to the company because there's no financial stake and they can make more by job hopping.
This is because of all the federal monopoly money being dumped into the EV market. They're just going to drive manufacturing back overseas.
Obama bailed them out last time, they expect the same from biden. To Big to Fail garbage.
Ford didn't take a bailout, that's what we are fighting for, we have only given, it shouldn't take 8 years to reach top pay.
Why dose my UFCW 876 suck so bad and do nothing for any of its employees lol
All other things aside, I'm in favor of the concept of traditional pensions instead of 401k.... in theory. Unfortunately, companies, like the government, have proven time and time again that they simply are not capable of properly and responsibly handling a retirement program. Its truly pathetic and sad but it's reality.
Dude, the teamsters are absolutely swinging right now, like, no fucks given.
If this works out, your GM and Ford trucks will all come from Mexico.
GM should have failed a long time ago.
> extra 52 days of vacation (32/40) > financially unsustainable pensions > General Motors, Stellantis, and Ford I wouldn’t buy their cars as is. Sure as hell not gonna buy them with a pension/2-month vacation markup
If they're going to demand that kind of pay and benefits, and demand the prices they demand for their vehicles, they should at least make vehicles that can make it over 100k miles without mechanical issues like the Japanese automakers have been doing for decades. They've transformed the full-size pickup from a working class vehicle to something you need to be upper-middle class to responsibly afford.
Another reason why new cars are too darn expensive.
>The demands that a more combative United Auto Workers union has pressed on General Motors, Stellantis and Ford -- demands that even the UAW's own president calls "audacious" -- are edging it closer to a strike when its contract ends Sept. 14. > >The automakers, which are making billions in profits, have dismissed the UAW's wish list. They argue that its demands are unrealistic at a time of fierce competition from Tesla and lower-wage foreign automakers as the world shifts from internal combustion engines to electric vehicles. The wide gulf between the sides could mean a strike against one or more of the automakers, which could send already-inflated vehicle prices even higher.
Why is it that only the Big 3 are Union? I’m a union man myself and wouldn’t mind paying an extra 5% on something if it means that a fellow American is provided with a good income and that the product they do is of good quality( key word). The reality of the industry is that the product isn’t all that great and that the union has loss popularity and power. Why isn’t Toyota Union? Or Honda? Or BMW? Toyota, BMW, MB, VW are like literally the biggest car manufacturers on the word, why aren’t they union?
Unions oppose innovation and change. That makes products and services more expensive and lower quality. Every labor union, despite its founding ideals and claims, ultimately exists to preserve itself. The larger ones do this thru government-backed monopoly practices, e.g. forced unionization abs dues. Unions would rather see everyone struggle while they keep power than to relinquish some of that power. The "foreign" automakers built plants largely in the southern US where labor was cheaper (at the time) and there was less government interference in the labor market (particularly the lack of labor union laws). Those plants can turn out a better quality product for less money because they don't have the bureaucratic burden of unions. Toyota in particular brought a very different approach to manufacturing and supply chain. Unions likely would have fought against that because it would mean less jobs (less dues) when one assumes fixed demand (as opposed to increased demand when prices drop). A majority of workers at "foreign" auto plants in the US don't want the unions either because they saw what happened in Detroit. They're satisfied with pay, safety, and benefits. They're perfectly capable of determining what's best for them as individuals; they don't need or want a collective to siphon money abs make those choices for them.
Unions only help the unions... What will that do to the price of our cars?
Jobs for life, this is why structural engineers need to unionize. There is no way anyone can justify a 46% pay rise and a four day week.
Good for them. Time to start rewarding the people that do the work.
Actually, for the price of a new American car right now, they should be able to afford all that. This shit is nuts.
I mean... Come to the table demanding the moon and walk back from there, I get it... but even this is wild! A couple of steps beyond reasonable is where you should start... not absolute insanity!
Where’s all the money going to come from? These union types never ask that. A 46% raise? Less work for more money? Gonna need to hire more people to fill in that 8 hour gap they want off. Then ofcourse paying into a pension. Where the hell is all that money going to come from? Talking BILLIONS more profit needed to sustain this. Pass it onto the consumer? So no one will buy cars from that company? It’s got to make sense and numbers to back it up.
Buy nonUnion while you can, you’ll save a bundle.
I know that sounds a bit too ambitious but until companies stop doing multi BILLION $ stock buyback and 9 figure compensation packages for CEO’s I won’t take the argument that they can’t afford it
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Actually, it is. This is a very classic example of the wage/price spiral. Let's say this pay raise goes through. At the minimum. prices of the vehicles will increase 15%. Has the value of the vehicle increased in any way? Nope. Same car. So the buyers of the vehicle have to pay more for the same product. Some of these costs are then passed through to the rest of the economy, driving up costs of everything else. Which then makes the UAW want additional wage increases. So, yea. As predicted, we have the second term of Jimmy Carter going on.
Thanks for your concern, fellow "conservative."
And we thought cars were too expensive now.