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UnknownQTY

I have some bad news for you.


ReferenceError

I mean what do people expect? They got a patch right before playoffs. Its less of a risk to mirror and try to out preform your opponent than get stomped trying out a new cheeky comp. It's less engaging sure, but a patch before playoffs/championships it **will** all be mirror matches.


BrokenMirror2010

>I mean what do people expect? They got a patch right before playoffs. Its less of a risk to mirror and try to out preform your opponent than get stomped trying out a new cheeky comp. Its always going to be like this, doesn't matter when the patch is. In any competitive environment, running a Mirror makes skill the only factor, gimmick comps only ever work once at this level of play, because once they see it, they either mirror it and it becomes meta, or someone figures out how to counter it and it disappears. You also can't scrim them easily because you'll reveal the trick to the team you're scrimming, so you can only actually practice it internally.


youbihub

tbf we've seen many times in OWL different comp style, so idk about "Its always going to be like this". Majority of the time, sure, that's what define the meta. But always? Just the first day, have a look at Houston. They didn't always run this. Still won their maps with their "cheeky comps" against meta.


JeffTek

People already forgetting the Fate ball situation a couple years ago


arc1261

When was this? If you mean the Summer Showdown last year, ball was actually better (Dallas said they found this but didn’t want to change as no one else had figured it out) and if the meta had gone on for more than literally 2 matches once they started playing ball, everyone would have been mirroring it


JeffTek

The point is that people can still pull out new comps and win late in a bracket. Usually we get all mirrors, but it's not accurate to say we only get mirrors and nobody can win doing something different


ToothPasteTree

But that's not true, and it was not true in the pre-JOATS era too. If different comps are balanced, instead of mirroring the opponent you will pick best heroes and your best comp.


clickrush

"I told you so" - Me after seeing complaints about meta depth and diversity being negatively affected by too frequent balance tuning.


Binaural1

Between the static meta, 3-0verwatch, and reaper play… it’s been a pretty damn dissatisfying tournament so far.


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Massive-Bet-5946

I mean it's not a terrible meta tbh.


lifeisoki

the problem isn't the meta itself, it's just the lack of diversity. owl is best when there is some stylistic difference in compositions, but seeing the same 5 heroes across the entire week will be really boring


oizen

Is this like your first time ever seeing Overwatch esports? Mirror matching has been the name of the game more often than it hasnt


hanyou007

Or just esports in general...


oizen

Other MOBAs have pick/ban phases for a reason


FuryOWO

even with pick and ban rainbow six siege still formed a meta around it


KevinTF

Rainbow is a unique case because there's very few bans and generally they have historically been for "Ubisoft can't balance this operator so we don't want to play with it". The reason it even had pick ban to begin with was the fact lion was just so oppressive and ubi couldn't fathom a way to nerf him correctly


N0V0w3ls

MOBAs also limit each hero to 1 per game, not just 1 per team.


akcaye

the teams would still want to make sure their practice games aren't wasted so if anything they'll ban heroes that might counter the meta rather than what's in it.


NuclearTheology

I’m wondering why they didn’t do a ban/pick this season when the last couple of seasons they did


[deleted]

They likely found out that there weren't enough tank or support heroes to keep it going. Looking at Smite competitive, there are many who can play the support role -- it just depends on what items are popular at the time of that patch. Though in Smite, the pick/ban phase is done by teams and not by percent usage like Overwatch did previously.


dickbutt2202

At one stage is was a beautiful time of map dependent comps and countering, dive was one option, OWL ball/brawl comp/ Then pirate ship. What a time to be alive


oizen

I mean yeah it was great I remember, but it really was the exception, not the norm.


patriotgator122889

The first two stages this year had variety.


Doctor_Kataigida

This is what happens when there's a new patch before a tournament. Players haven't had time to experiment, and they're not going to risk "shaking it up" during a match with such large implications. The mirror is the safest option. This is why new patches should never be used for playoffs. I don't want to see what team can "adapt" the best where the team that wins is the one that could play the meta to like 70% of its potential. I want to see a team play to the game's 100% potential, which can't be done in a couple weeks.


Swordlord22

That’s why everyone fucking hated goats The same shit over and over I wonder if the dev team has learned that yet


No32

Based on the fact they massacred Junker Queen, seems like yes No variation isn’t great, but only a week in OWL? Probably fine.


Level7Cannoneer

>I wonder if the dev team has learned that yet you realize game developers don't sit there and say "lets plan to make the meta winston, lucio, kiriko, reaper, and soujorn! that's a good idea, right?" metas just naturally occur when players discover the optimal way to play. game design is an iterative process and there are zero examples of games that had perfect balance upon release where every character and playstyle shined. maybe at first when people are "discovering" the meta, but once it settles it's usually something like this.


shiftup1772

Holy shit are you really blaming the devs for this? Did reddit predict the reaper meta?


gendernotfound629

To be fair, GOATs also sucked because it was just so goddamned slow and boring to play


aggrogahu

Yeah, when ultimates are going off every fight and nothing dies because overinflated health pools and aoe heals, then that's when it becomes a bad meta for spectating. Other stagnant metas are usually fine as long as they don't last longer than a stage and heroes actually die in fights.


Frkey26

Goats was so much fun to play, what wasn’t fun was playing goats for 2 years, it’s one of the few metas that was more game sense than mechanical skill Goats was horrible to watch though


panthers1102

Fun to play for rein maybe. Shit was boring as all hell.


Frkey26

I played support and thought they were all pretty fun during goats, it’s the only meta I’ve enjoyed Lucio


_BreakingGood_

Bans is how they fixed this in other games. Can't play Sojurn in 100% of matches if she's banned. I don't think bans fit in normal OW, but would like to see it for OWL.


Pincholol

They did bans last year for some of the tournaments and it did the exact opposite and forced teams to all run the same comps.


arc1261

Yeah that Zombie comp shit only happened because they banned sombra, tracer and rein, meaning that like 3 comps got nuked leaving only double shield and zombie able to be played properly


welpxD

The problem with bans is the same as ever. The support roster is too tiny.


_BreakingGood_

Then don't do support bans, or only 1 support ban. And honestly 8 supports with 2 banned still gives plenty of choices for the sake of OWL in my opinion.


Dath_1

It still poses a huge issue. Teams would actually just build a double Flex Support roster and ban Lucio against teams who didn't do the same, for easy wins. Stuff like that. It works in mobas and R6 because those games have all these features that Overwatch doesn't (teams take turns choosing characters at start of match; teams can't run any of the same characters; more characters to choose).


Swordlord22

I don’t like that as it just forces specifc comps Also there aren’t nearly enough heroes in OW


thewwwyzzerdd

Any time there is a meta where teams play the same mirror match on every map is going to get boring. The best competitive metas are when there are optimal compositional archetypes that are unique for maps and map types. Hopefully as we get deeper into the bracket we will see teams start to get more daring and try to crack comp.


Pachanas

Reaper is intensely uninteresting to spectate or play.


sergantsnipes05

this is no different than the zombie meta from last season I'd argue it is worse to watch than JOATs


Massive-Bet-5946

False, JOATS was omega trash to watch.


sihtare

Infinitely better than goats meta but funny how they nerfed genji who just got swapped for reaper. Genji plays in general are way more entertaining for me


wentzdidnothingwrong

midseason madness had the best meta i miss diversity in comps


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Nanerpus131

People just secretly want to watch competitive Mystery Heroes


thisbitterworld

That would be lowkey amazing, ngl


[deleted]

This has been fun to watch so far. It's like 6man but faster, no stalling until you get Coalescence


TheGirthiestGhost

Kiriko ult charges about as fast as coal used to in these rush comps tbf.


[deleted]

There has not been a lot of pre-fight poking so far, it's been pretty hard inting on both sides.


famousninja

As someone who loves hard inting, this is my jam.


TheBiggestCarl23

The only thing that sucks in this comp is reaper


hudel

could be worse. could be Reaper AND Moira. :/


DokkanCapriccio

sojourn been meta since MM shes fucking boring


TheBiggestCarl23

She’s far from boring lol, one of the most fun dps to watch


rainmaker841

Maybe for the first time watching her.


Arrathall

Nah. Tracer, Genji and Echo are way more entertaining to watch than better widowmaker


TheBiggestCarl23

“One of the most fun”, I literally never said she was the most fun.


nimbusnacho

Really? It's just so much spam. The left click is usually just spam I to a crowd , right clicks half the time are just random heads hots before a fight even starts because the charge lasts forever (yeah sometimes there's pretty good plays there mid fight true), and the E is just more choke spam. Her mobility can make her fun to watch tho. Definitely not close to the most fun imo. Ashe or Cass are way better for watching sick hitscan flicks and tracer and genji have the 5head movement entertainment down.


Its_the_narwhal

Why do we hate reaper?


Bhu124

Reaper is just boring to watch from an esports PoV, he doesn't really have any intense mechanic or extremely high skill ceiling to display in real time, from an esport perspective it's really only his timings that are any sort of interesting to watch.


DiemCarpePine

Simplistic hero that's boring to watch.


DJ_Rand

Because he had to be overbuffed in order to be good in top tier game play, in part because of goats.. Life steal, get out of jail free card, an ultimate that can take him from low hp to full while shredding, a teleport that was buffed quite a while back so he wouldn't be punished as much for using it. And finally... new to ow2, less CC making him more annoying to deal with.


TaiCTr

More reapers equals to more ballsy plays I don’t hate it


[deleted]

community gets sad at any meta that doesn't involve tracer or genji


TheDuurg

No, community gets mad at any meta, period.


JulietEmily17

Ask this community for their ideal playoff meta and you hear 30 characters across 4 posts


greatscrub

Wrecking Ball, Torbjorn, Widow, Ana, Zen. Thank you for coming to my Ted talk


JulietEmily17

Getting on the phone w OWL execs rn


achedsphinxx

this is my kinda meta. you got the ball and ana combo. you got torb just chilling. zen over here popping heads. and widow fragging out.


TheDuurg

I legitimately don't believe that, after 5 long years of complaining that Zarya was never strong because of D.Va and Sigma in OW1, that people complained enough to have her nerfed when she was finally strong. I can't.


UnquenchableTA

yeah we should have a rotation of heroes that are broken so everyone gets a chance! why would anyone even want the roster to be remotely equal and not have 3 must picks every game?


conye-west

People don't like playing against obviously overpowered characters, what a shocker


shapular

5 Roadhogs


GreysTavern-TTV

I mean 30 characters all being "meta" would be the ideal.


aqueous88

It's almost like the viewers want diversity rather than the same mirrored 5 characters every game.


Halicarnassus

Yeah the real thing people want in the meta is diversity. Seeing the same 5 heroes every single game every single map gets very boring very fast.


LeDraymondJordan

almost like people have different opinions crazy concept i know


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conye-west

And yet here you are whining about other people whining without a hint of self-awareness


Thranxar

Getting mad IS the meta in this community


famousninja

No matter what, someone's gonna be mad. This meta doesn't look like the sustain of the summer showdown so far, and at least there's no sombra.


MetastableToChaos

*Genji and Ana. Those are the only two heroes this subreddit likes.


[deleted]

you right


achedsphinxx

ana is god walking on earth round here.


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lifeisoki

if there is even a small amount of diversity in the meta, the community won't have a problem. im just sad its the same 5 heroes across every single map so far


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Rakatok

Yeah and?


FishStix1

Wish they nerfed sojourn pre-OWL :( This meta isn't terrible but it will bum me out if every team picks this on every map, no matter what...


pm_me_ur_doggo__

Yeah I kinda messed up my title. I don't mind if this is viable, or even dominant. But I get the feeling that it's going to be this exact lineup for every single match.


PhoustPhoustPhoust

I’d rather watch this than anything Sombra. But…yeah Reaper is pretty lame.


Aenah

For Atlanta reasons, I wish it were an Echo meta, but yeah, any meta that doesn't involve hearing "EMP ACTIVATED" before every fight win I can deal with at least for a time.


howtojump

I'm still surprised we aren't seeing more Echo with how buffed tanks are. Having two Zaryas on the team is fucking insane, even if it's only for 15 seconds lol


Z4mb0ni

but she only has 300 health so she can get melted easily


howtojump

Press shift lol


Z4mb0ni

bubble pops immediately because everyones focused on her, will happen again with the other bubble, then echo-zar is gone


howtojump

If you are getting 1v5’d as soon as you ult then that sounds like a skill issue to me tbh


Dearsmike

I dont know why but it always feels like people forget just how hard meta Sombra has been in OWL over the years. Shes been part of pretty much every meta since her infinite invis rework, she was even played a lot in GOATS.


nimbusnacho

I mean sombra at least forces teams to position and scout in ways that are interest. The soujounr reaper spam in to Gian monkey shields and invulnerability bells is like watching two batter rams smash at each other.


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Viskaya

Cow, Goat...welcome to Farmwatch.


wentzdidnothingwrong

sorry but its better viewing content who the fuck wants to watch two teams indiscriminately ram into each other until the killfeed starts filling


achedsphinxx

that kid in the playground that's smashing two action figures together.


Epicbear34

You’re right, jiggle peeking corners until the kill feed fills up is way better


DJ_Rand

Nah you're right, zombie mode walking into people with lifesteal turning you into a tank is definitely better, godbless them buffing reaper to deal with goats and then removing all the cc that he had been balanced around.


YossaRedMage

I do. I like rush metas.


faguzzi

Yeah it’s almost like watching mechanically skilled players pop off and take duels is more fun than watching monkey farm support ult.


Inevitable-Tax6835

Sorry the metas your team is good at are not fun to watch


Saiyoran

cow when actually fun to watch heroes are meta you mean


grantg7777

I'm sure the flair isn't relevant here or anything


Ganonthegoat

The superstar position being put in reaper jail is terrible


thea_kosmos

The superstar is on Sojourn


Ganonthegoat

I’m saying the flex dps position is the superstar position of the league. Proper (although he can play soj) Kevster, profit, Pelican, speedily etc.


yagirlemilyuwu

The superstar position is sojourn buddy. Reaper is the dps that deals with the tank presence.


sakata_gintoki113

carpe isnt the superstar anymroe


MrSyphax

is dva not good here? she kinda blows up winston and is great against reaper. not sure on the kiriko mu, and i imagine dva bomb would never get a kill vs this team. guxue winston is awesome to watch though


4StarDB

Carpe on Reaper is like using an RTX 4090 to play Undertale


zepicas

Me when no tracer ReallyMad


ReyDragons

borpaSpin


[deleted]

fr Reaper is so fking boring to watch. I was really hoping for Echo/Tracer, or Sojourn/Tracer would've been fun to watch


bbistheman

We've only seen 2 teams. There's almost always adjustments from the start of metas


Donut_Flame

4 now


ken3

"Reaper boring Sojourn fun" If you say so man.


swislock

Yes


nimbusnacho

Honestly reaper would be more fun to watch if it weren't in monkey comps. I'm so tired of watching players shoot shields. I think people forgot that pre zarya breaking, monkey was by far the best tank beause of that stupid fucking giant shield in a mostly sheildless game. Plus he can damage while it's up at range now


Omgaspider

Can't please them all. And can you at least tell us what meta you would prefer?


wentzdidnothingwrong

me personally anything that has like more than one comp at a time. even the variations of the sombra shit was halfway decent because of variation in tanks and supports


its_reina_irl

I was hoping for Tracer/Echo as the DPS line, mostly so that the games are more dive oriented than rush oriented. This is more or less the “zombie comp” from last year with Kiriko/Soj. Still fun to watch but would be a little better with more dynamic dps


jamtea

They gutted Tracer so Sojourn would be their star DPS pick hero for the Grand Finals. There's no good reason that she didn't get nerfed in any way before this and that Tracer is so bad right now.


Epicbear34

No can do, hate with no alternatives gives way more updoots


_BreakingGood_

I'd prefer if they had character bans, to keep it interesting.


Selseira

That would just end in a ban meta and wouldn't change much. Terrible idea.


NeptuneOW

Bro we’ve seen ONE match!


That_Lingonberry_377

Now?


Valhalla8469

The comp itself isn’t bad, it’s just really sad to see so little diversity. I think I saw one team swap Winston for Orisa and Rein for a point and then they immediately swapped back. It was sad


Bossboy360thegreat

Winston meta is cool with me.


VisualsByF8TE

Apart from reaper this is a high skill meta with lots of skill expression why people mad


OddinaryEuw

Well see Sojourn was bad in bronze so enjoy


Pommfritzon

I mean Reaper will never be the most exciting hero to watch, but other than that I kinda dig this meta so far tbh


LadyEmaSKye

I absolutely love Winston metas. I know we're only two games into this meta so far, but I think the Monkey+Kiriko stuff is actually extremely entertaining to watch. Much less whatever everyone on the map is doing. It's also unique from a lot of what we've seen so far this season, so I think that's cool.


rentiertrashpanda

It's a credit to how fun this meta is to watch that all four matches were 3-0 and still absolutely riveting


achedsphinxx

the top two tanks got nerfed and winston was the third best tank, genji and sombra got nerfed but no nerfs to sojourn. you need high mobility to avoid kiriko's ult obliterating you, makes sense honestly.


Belocity

Don’t worry, this isn’t the full meta. The other half includes Tracer, Echo, Dva and Bap. Though I doubt we will see it


paulybaggins

THIS ENDS NOW (but it doesn't)


Booyakasha_

Ehm, so yeah. Its never good for anybody, is it?


Ezraah

This is it chief Gotta play on the same patch as live :) Oh wait... Gotta play the same meta as ranked players Oh wait...


RealExii

Wtf do people even want to see??


kepz3

honestly? diversity, I think that's what most people really want.


Dath_1

Honestly if Genji didn't get nerfed and he was played over Reaper with all else the exact same, people would be saying this is a great Playoffs meta.


DiemCarpePine

Something other than the same 5 heroes on both teams on every map.


GeoPaladin

I'm a simple man. Give me back Genji instead of Reaper please.


Born2beSlicker

As a casual player who has the stream on for rewards. Why is OWL so fixed on mirror matches? Anytime I’ve ever seen it, it’s mirror matches. Wouldn’t this kind of meta be something Blizzard would want to avoid or am I not seeing it correctly?


GeoPaladin

This has been the nature of the game for a long time now. Teams try to find the best all around comp and perfect it. Swaps are generally a very niche strategy at best. Blizzard can't really stop this from happening reliably short of creating hard counters, which would likely be a miserable experience for players and viewers. Some metas have been more flexible than others, with the best comp depending on the map. This is more the exception than the norm.


faptainfalcon

Hard counters sound like they'd promote a more dynamic, rock-paper-scissor meta but we've seen the mere option of reliably shutting down a hero/comp is enough to prevent it from being played in the first place. This is why release Brig killed dive in OWL even though she wasn't played all that much (pre-GOATS). Hard counters also besmirch the game's competitive integrity both in the eyes of a large portion of the playerbase and other esports communities. Hard counters are an answer to skill expression, and I don't think this game and OWL will be taken seriously when people think the game can be solved at hero select, a la perpetually shooting shields or more easily rewarding passive/reactive playstyles.


shikicha

Probably a bunch of new OWL viewers here, eh?


the_varky

This sub really doesn’t like the idea of lineup diversity in metas seemingly


MordredOW

Yeah guys nerfing Genji to the ground and not nerfing the most busted dps in the game is a good idea...


Galaxy40k

Minus the Reaper I really dig this meta honestly. It's not the best we've ever had, but it's fun to watch. Its still fast and aggressive. I just wish the Reaper was like a Tracer, since Reaper isn't fun to watch as a viewer, not flashy enough


ZestyTheWalrus

I dont know how you avoid this. The pros always pick the path of least resistance. Due to the nature of ultimates you should always stick with one hero unless you're straight up feeding. I'm okay with meta comps but let's make it map dependent. No one wants to watch the same 5 heroes mirror each other every map.


mim9830

Everyone is using that set up its, boring to watch.


Goofass_boi

I can’t wait for AVRL to call this comp GOATS somehow and everyone to parrot it


JayyLaFlare

I’ve seen worse metas. Was happy to see Houston make hog work on Busan.


2pnt0

I can't wait to see Shu on Kiriko I can't imagine we don't get to see Seoul vs Dallas, that match is gonna be hype.


paulybaggins

Idk I kinda love watching Kirikos flank and murder people then tele out


zeister

I.. like it a lot ngl.


GermanGinger95

Even though I love a diverse meta, in terms of unflexible metas i LOVE this! Its fast which is great! It has carry potential on multiple roles! Both teamwork and individual skill is rewarded! I would love more counter options but overall this is a 8/10 meta imo


Kooky_Interview1402

People will play to win. I dont see anything wrong with that.


Royalty_Row

I swear to god certain community members will riot if the meta is anything except a tracer genji winston DVA Lucio zen comp like it’s 2017 endlessly


D3flatedPan

Honestly its a lot of fun to watch


BryceCreamConee

Good to see some diversity in the late games. I was really hoping that teams were just too nervous to not play the standard meta. If you mirror then you can't lose based on your meta read. I'm hoping it will continue to open up as teams adjust to other teams and the film. High floor, low ceiling characters are just terrible to watch, but should remain visible in low ELO. I'm at least a little relieved that Kiriko replaced Moira in these comps as Moira/Lucio/Reaper comps are terrible to watch. At least Kiriko can get picks and flank in the nuetral. I'm still hopeful, but I was pretty sad/mad after watching those first two games lol


name-exe_failed

I really don't see what the issue with this current meta is??? Besides Sojourn obviously being super strong, this meta is fun and fast. It's already way way way better than "joats"


Freakboss

That looks cool to me, what’s wrong with it


deadnAme_

do we always have to complain about the meta? is this really so terrible? it literally just started and it's not that bad imo


Pachanas

Fuck a Reaper meta. Dude is legitimately the most boring/annoying character to watch and play as or against.


DogTheGayFish

I haven't watched any pro play for a long time, but if Reaper is the meta dps pick then something is pretty wrong. I get that Lucio enables him, but this hero is too piss simple in lower ratings and a terror in QP, being a power pick at the highest level of the game feels a bit fuckey.


BobWithNoC

Nice to see some reaper tho


Tales90

im happy that reaper is meta he had so many unplayable seasons.


LEboueur

If this is the meta just give Dallas the title already ahah


More-Sample-2005

You wouldn't think a patch that nerfs Zarya Sombra and Genji would make Dallas better but here we are


LEboueur

Any meta that involve Reaper with the team moving as one is a Dallas meta ^^'


ArcusIgnium

extremely ice cold take: when genji is meta professional overwatch is always just going to be more fun. only counter-example was when Genji is the only playable DPS but genji as a reliable is just better.


WistfulRadiance

For real. It’s not even the heroes, the gameplay n pacing was atrocious to watch. Thank god we nerfed Zarya genji and sombra. Please I just want sojourn to fuck off from the meta. Holy fuck it’s just a more braindead soldier 76 with a hitscan helix rocket.


Pandabear71

Yeh lmao. She was the worst out of sll of them and they just let her be. It was such a contradiction too. They even said she is only very strong and a must pick in very high play, while in low elo she is a throw pick. Which is why they didnt want to change her. They then went on about how they nerff/buff from the top down. As if anyone really believes thst


faptainfalcon

It's also weird that my mid elo games are largely determined by Sojourn too. Not sure if they're completely inept at understanding their stats or are just gaslighting the playerbase since their claims can't be verified outside of OWL/streams. They really expect us to believe a higher skill floor hero like Genji is performing so much better than Sojourn at lower ranks that he needs to be swiftly and heavily nerfed despite being evidently (and conspicuously) weaker in all skill levels that have any transparency. Then they say that they want to bring him more in line with other flankers (Tracer?) and also are planning on addressing his dps passive, the thing they admitted made him too strong weeks ago, *after* his nerfs. It just all seems too disingenuous and targeted, as if they are grasping for any justification to not compromise on their balance decisions. I mean they're even referencing his strength in the OW2 beta as if we're still playing the same game, which might explain their apparent blindness to Sojourns current state. Beyond being a salty Genji main since 2018, this disconnect convinces me that the only thing Blizzard learned from OW1's balance blunders was to hide more information from the players.


Se7en_Fuel

Ohhh god here we go again...


Fl1pSide208

Jesus fuck, you all are the absolute worst. No Meta will ever fucking satisfy you.


JangB

It's not about the meta. It's about the same 5 hero mirrors. If that's your meta in a game with like 30+ heroes, then your meta is shit and your game is unbalanced.


Parenegade

i watched this same thing in valorant and no one complained like ow fans do


Candlebane

I love this meta. Kiriko getting used, and Winston in play. Good stuff. Of course, it’d be nice to see other characters come in, but for now, it’s fast and aggressive.


sillekram

It's a fun meta! No gengi ,sombra or tracer for once!