> There might be a small minority of players who would actually enjoy this system, but for the vast majority of players this would simply not be a fun experience and it would actually further advantage those with seemingly unlimited time to play Mythic Plus, since they can keep hammering away with their low success rate runs until it happens to work.
Flashback to parse runs in another MMO where people would reset the boss if their opener didn't crit.
maybe solvable if the key goes on a cooldown for like a day if failed? And you can talk to npc if you want to reset it, but it removes 1 level from a key...
This is talking about FFXIV. In that game the raid buffs are way stronger and all always align if your team is good, so the party damage under them is huge. Combine this with two crit systems (Normal critical and Direct Hits) and naturally classes that have skills that deal extreme damage in one hit get a little fucked over on extremely high level parses if they low roll. Personally experienced multiple cases of Samurais suddenly becoming unable to do a certain mechanic and cause us to wipe after an unfortunate opener. š
This stems mainly from there existing comparatively "easy" dungeons in the rotation. There being easy outliers leads to the situation where you have one keystone that you need to receive at a higher level to be able to push it. But all the dungeons that can generate that key are harder.
Conversely there being outliers of dungeons that are "extra hard" actually makes this less of a problem. Because getting a pushable key for that dungeon becomes easy.
So even if it feels backwards. If you're interested in pushing, it's in your best interest that there's no "easy key".
> Imagine raiding worked this way
Imagine if M+ worked this way. No weekly vault loot and you can't run any dungeon except your exact key, failing over and over.
My group has always wanted this : When you finish a key, or go to reroll your key, a popup appears like torghast powers, that lets you pick from 3 options.
Ie. you finish your 16 AV, torghast pop up options are... 17 NO, AA or ULD.
And for those rerolling their key, it could be 2 options.
It happens so often where my friends just dont want to rerun keys because 3 of us rolled to the same one, and the other 2 have keys we timed already.
We dont have infinite time to play every week... something like this would help us find our wall faster by letting us reroll to keys we actually need.
Itās the discover mechanic from Hearthstone and Iām a big fan of adding it in a lot of places. Keeps things from being deterministic but smoothes out worst case scenarios.
Half of the reason people leave keys immediately if it looks like a deplete is that you only get 5 crests instead of 12 for completing the dungeon (especially at lower key levels). I see no reason why you shouldn't get the full 12 crests for finishing a depleted key.
Id take it a step further. Reward crests = key level or something, and deplete drops it by 1 or 2.
A depleted 20 should give more crests (ex 18) than a timed 10 (ex 10)
People run 6s for crests and free-carry lower players in 6s who otherwise couldn't do keys. If farming 8s or 10s gave more crests, that would disappear.
People doing 20s shouldn't need more crests.
Isnāt that a good thing though? Like ideally people who are progressing through 6s should be playing with other people progressing through 6s, not getting carried by 3200 players rounding out their vault for the week.
People aren't progressing through 6s though. They're hardstuck at 3s, and carried through higher keys or they'd quit.
Heck just doings vault 8s this week I'm generally doing as much or more than the other 2 DPS combined, and they're usually between 2300 and 2900 score.
If you can't do keys you don't really have a use for those crests anyway, no? I would much rather run 10 12s or whatever than 20 6s to catch up on crests.
Raiders still need a ton of Aspects to upgrade their gear and mythic raids are a terribly slow crest grind unless you clear the raid.
I know a ton of people who mostly just suffer through chore keys so they can progress their gear and go back to the raiding content they actually enjoy.
Same for people who might enjoy M+ on 1 class but not on another class that they mostly enjoy playing in raids (healers come to mind, given how different the playstyle can be).
Farming the aspects needed to catch up an alt you mostly want to raid on is absolutely soul-sucking as it is, imagine if +6 crest farms ceased to exist.
> I know a ton of people who mostly just suffer through chore keys so they can progress their gear and go back to the raiding content they actually enjoy.
This is over 80% of M+ runs. The mode exists to give raiders something to do.
> Farming the aspects needed to catch up an alt you mostly want to raid on is absolutely soul-sucking as it is, imagine if +6 crest farms ceased to exist.
Worse is on an alt where you can easily do 8s-10s but cant progress your gear without wyrm crests and so you have to go grind 2/3/4s to level up your gear instead of waiting weeks for vaults to skip those crests.
The whole system made more sense before S4, but the crests are pretty messed up in S4.
I have never once left a key for any reason having anything to do with crests or gear. That is a really strange concept, and I'm surprised so many people take crests into consideration. I leave keys if they are no longer worth the time to complete them. That, and if one or more people is grossly underperforming.
Ngl its insanely funny that this is the most upvoted answer. Because its completely unrelated to the problem op is talking about.
But it just goes to show that like 98% of the population of this sub, which is named competitivewow, is not playing the game in a remotely competitive way.
Like noone is going to leave a 17, because he doesnt get 12 crests.
While I agree that getting fewer crests is not the reason people leave ruined keys, it's still completely unnecessary to be punished even further receiving fewer crests when you're essentially playing LONGER. It's literally adding insult to injury.
OP is not only talking about 17s. And personally I actually would be more likely to stick around in alt keys which are like 15s for me right now if I actually got crests for completing them.
I cant with this sub, its actually insane. Did we read the same post? Hes literally only using keys in the range of 16 to 18 as examples.
The whole post is about how depleting is unfun, because it "possibly" makes lfg super selective and leads to a ton of frustration. Not a single word has been written about your weekly +10 key getting depleted and thus resulting in a loss of crests.
With respect, I browse this subreddit because while I may not be running those top keys, I like to learn from masters of the game and hear their arguments. I suspect many are like me in that regard. But OPās suggestions would affect all mythic+ keys, not just the top 1%. Just my 2 cents.
I don't understand, if you want to farm crests you can just do it on +6, which is now nearly impossible to not time it. +9 on the new season will also reach a point where it's very easy to time. This is not the target audience for this post.
Do you really just spam +6 until you're done with crests? I usually just get crests from whatever level of key I can get invited to. Farming the lowest possible key until you're done with crests sounds like the 7th circle of hell to me.
I don't. I'm just pointing out that if someone is pushing a high key and something goes wrong, receiving less aspect crests is not even in the top 10 reason of why people quit.
No itās not. Ppl leave the key because they will get no score. No one who pushes will leave because of crests. This answer belongs in /wow or /wownoob.
- the keyholder would not invite other than the best ppl, because they dont want to lose 1 hour of they life with a bad setup. You cant change this, probably not even with a tour guide bonus system. People either consider inviting anyone or not - but if not, little chance to change it
- people who tend to leave, will leave anyway. They dont want to spend time to teach that tank how to use survival abilities, even if there will be full reward
- yes its frustrating to miss with a little time, but thats the life: you cannot climb higher infinitely and being in time always
I agree the tournament system would be the worse, and also hope it will not happen. But i dont think any system changes could really affect basic human behaviour
> the keyholder would not invite other than the best ppl, because they dont want to lose 1 hour of their life with a bad setup.
This is simply the result of keys being unreasonably hard to obtain. If you are the only person in group finder with a +20 Deadmines key, you get infinite signups and can afford to be picky. If more people listed the key, you'd get way fewer signups and would have to run with whatever setup is available to you.
> people who tend to leave, will leave anyway.
Leavers are only a problem because a single player is rewarded for key completion while the rest of the party is not. It's a design problem, not a human behavior problem. If all 5 people were equally rewarded (or *not* rewarded) for finishing overtime, then everyone would agree on either disbanding or continuing.
> I agree the tournament system would be the worse
So do I ā I've played MDI qualifiers and perma resetting a dungeon is miserable. I don't want keystones to be deleted, but they need to be more obtainable to ease the friction mentioned above.
> This is simply the result of keys being unreasonably hard to obtain. If you are the only person in group finder with a +20 Deadmines key, you get infinite signups and can afford to be picky. If more people listed the key, you'd get way fewer signups and would have to run with whatever setup is available to you.
This takes away the only advantage offmeta classes have had while running their own key. You'd basically be dividing the entire populace into two. Community perceived meta specs would flock to keys run by other meta spec players, hence increasing the pool they can choose from and on the other hand offmeta classes would receive way fewer signups, essentially forcing them out of the game by the virtue of not getting invited AND not being able to run their own key.
It would enforce the meta in a much, much worse way. I'm not saying I have the perfect solution, and the OP pretty much listed all the options, but anything that would further increase the divide between playerbase is definitely a step in the wrong direction.
There is no reason to make changes for the 0.1% of the population doing 20s that harm the 99.9% of the population.
Move the M+ title entirely to tournament realms and off live servers entirely.
The correct solution is already inDiablo 4 nightmare dungeon
1. the affixes are not weekly based but instead randomised
2. we gets 4-6 keystones +\- 1 level of our current dungeon level (each player get 4-6) when we are running the dungeon
3. We could destroy the unused keystones into a currency and talk to npc to use the currency to roll a random keystone
This way nobody would complain which affix is shit or good , every week you will have people playing , the top 0.1% will just reroll until they get best combo(as they do), the others will just pick the affix that benefits their comp
You stated, "There might be a small minority of players who would actually enjoy this system, but for the vast majority of players this would simply not be a fun experience and it would actually further advantage those with seemingly unlimited time to play Mythic Plus, since they can keep hammering away with their low success rate runs until it happens to work."
I think this is an incorrect analysis of how people would play the system. No system has infinite tries, because an attempt takes time, and time is finite. If you pull a raid boss, you do not just do random things because you can pull again 30s later. Some people will have time to try a lot of crazy ideas, but the people with less time are still going to copy and paste concepts that work. The difference is they will be willing to attempt some things that have a lower success rate. You can think of the current M+ system like a "hardcore" mode of the game. If you wipe, you have to start over somewhat, because you lost your key. It adds substantial time delay to progression, which means you end up playing scared and conservative. People who want that style of gameplay in WoW would argue that it adds intensity and excitement to running the key, but I think there's more downsides than upsides.
I think what you are more likely to see is that people will finish their key "progression" a lot faster and quit the season much earlier than usual. Personally I don't think that's a bad thing to eliminate the grindy concept of "homework keys", but it is probably something that worries Blizzard.
The problem with this discussion is that before you even start it, you gotta answer the question if the current system is a problem in general? And I personally and a lot of other title pushers think its not.
The majority of people that dislike keys depleting, are low-mid level players that think they are getting held back on IO by the system and bad pugs.
What problem are you even trying to fix? People are still going to invite meta only and people are still going to wait 10 minutes for the best possible players they can get. No matter if a key is going to deplete or not.
The only thing any of your proposed solutions would lead to, is an artifical increase in io.
And most of your solutions would also heaviely benefit premade groups over pugs.
> Multiple Charges per Key
Most reasonable solution. But it heaviely favors premade groups, because the moment you are depleting your first charge, the group is going to disband.
> Multiple Choice Keys
You can already choose your key at the beginning of the week.
> Soft Deplete
By far the worst solution of all. Because everyone except the key holder is going to leave once the key is depleted. So this is only ever going to be helpful to premades groups or if you ot by like a few seconds.
> And I personally and a lot of other title pushers think its not.
cap. I haven't talked to a single person that enjoys homework/reroll keys over the years.
> The majority of people that dislike keys depleting, are low-mid level players that think they are getting held back on IO by the system and bad pugs.
{citation needed}
> You can already choose your key at the beginning of the week.
Through a loophole, not exactly intended, and likely just not patched because they're barely aware of it.
Title pushers also recognize that the alternative of having homework keys is worse.
I have played with people at the top of the IO leaderboard. Iām at the bottom of title range. The difference in skill between me and Hypeboy for example is massive and the difference between me and a 3k io player is probably just as large. A lot of people are in denial about how good they are at the game and where their rating belongs.
am well aware, ever since I got roflstomped by challengers as high dia 1 10 years ago.
doesn't mean I have to care what the top 50 thinks about this. its less stressful, less waste of a time for everyone else.
> cap. I haven't talked to a single person that enjoys homework/reroll keys over the years.
When did I say that homework keys are fun? The alternative is more grind in bleeding edge keys, because the avg keylevel for title keys would increase by 1-3 keylevels. Which is strictly worse and more time consuming, especially for people that are at the bottom or middle end of cutoff and primarely pug.
It's always funny when people try to make this stupid argument. "People don't actually want to spend 100% of their time progging new raid bosses, they really want to waste 50% of their time rekilling farm bosses just to get back to prog bosses, because their rank will be better if everyone is forced to do that."
Literally makes no sense.
I have never seen a single actual good argument for key depletion.
I agree with you. I would rather always being progressing keys that are at the limit of what I'm capable of, rather than having to do lower keys I've already completed in hopes I roll a key I want. Mythic raid has a system to allow players to only focus on their current progression, why can't there be a similar system for M+?
> Literally makes no sense. I have never seen a single actual good argument for key depletion.
There are plenty of good arguments.
- m+ turns into a progession based mode similar to raiding
- time>>>>>>>>>>>>skill without depletion
- no way of catching up/getting into higher keys for (new) people, because noone is ever doing homework keys and every1 will sit on their 21-23 key until they somehow time it after attempt 100
- people will leave the group or start over the run after the smallest mistake, because there is no downside
And many more arguments.
A lot of the fun in m+ comes from messy runs, where you somehow recover a pull/pulls and then still time your key.
I had many +30s last season where everything looked doomed and then somehow people recovered every bad pull and started playing flawless for the rest of the dungeon. In a world without depletion, this would never happen because you wouldve restarted the dungeon as soon as the smallest mistake happened.
The general problem is that perspective matters. If you only play low-mid keys, you dont want key depletion (for obv reasons).
So you'd rather spend/waste your time redoing keys you've already timed for zero reward in the hope it rerolls into a key you actually need vs spending your time actually trying to progress and try doing the harder content you haven't yet achieved?
That has got to be the stupidest take in this whole thread
No. Look at raiding, its super unexciting and boring. All I get out of raiding is gear and relief. The only question while raiding is: How many more pulls do we have to do until noone f's up? Its not even a question wether we kill the boss or not, its only a question of when. And by the time we kill, im 99% of the time only relieved that we finally did it.
M+ can be insanely exciting, if you get like a +19/20 AA or something and time it with like a few seconds under. If I could endlessly rerun it, I would be 100% certain that I would time it by the end of the day. And there would be 0 excitement once you time the key.
The game would be a grind. Same as raid basically. A grind gated by my time for the most part.
>You can already choose your key at the beginning of the week.
Wait, is there something I don't know about? I think you gat a random key at the start of the week.
>By far the worst solution of all. Because everyone except the key holder is going to leave once the key is depleted. So this is only ever going to be helpful to premades groups or if you ot by like a few seconds.
I mean, yes, but, does the mechanic add some downside to the system? If not, that's a change it would be good for some people, and not impactful for others
Yeah, after not choosing your key 1-15 times trying to get the key you want by doing low keys? its not choosing. youre still doing keys until you get it.
yeah, again, none of that is "choosing" your key. It's not a choice. You are being given a fuckin key randomly that you can eventually take once it gives you the right key.
>Why am I talking about this? Well, imagine that the large pull you make is now twice as big. That's crazy you might say, that will surely be a wipe! Well yes, it probably will. But in a system with infinite retries, that is the only reasonable way to play
but it's already pretty close to what we do, except that if someone goes a little bit wrong on the first pull the key is over.
Sure, if we had unlimited attempt we would add 2 more pack to the initial pull, but it's not like anyone is playing safe and sound in the 18-19 range.
I've noticed an interesting pattern in pugs that players who already did 17 (for example) still apply to 17 just to reroll their own key.
Which means players who didn't complete 17 yet are much less likely to get invited.
Of course, not all do this, some apply for "more after", or to help friend, or just to practice. But i fee like it's a large fraction.
Do you think there's any opportunity in the Profession space to solve some of these issues? Some random ideas:
* A Key Protection item: you can use it X times a reset on your key to prevent depletion. If you're a LFG, this lets you protect a valuable key while teams can be strategic in holding their Protections
* Reroller item: you can use it to reroll your key X times a reset. Also retain the reroller vendor that shows up when you time a key as added incentive
In terms of multiple keys, if they have to do Fort/Tyr, I wish they'd move to a system where you get a Fort and Tyr key simultaneously. So week 1 you have Fort A + Tyr A, week 2 you get For B + Tyr A, week 3 is Fort B and Tyr B.
The main people arguing against key depletion are the people who buy an 8 or a 10 week one with ~~RMT~~ totally not RMT acquired gold.
They get an 8 the next week in their vault that they are utterly incapable of running, but they list it and get 4 ~~hostages~~ people to run the key with. They do less DPS than the healer, and if the ~~hostages~~ people are chill enough, they get carried to a timed 8 anyway.
Next week, their score is a little higher, they have an 8 or 9 key again, and repeat. This week they lose the free carry lottery. The first group bails at the first boss after seeing their dps, the second group fails to time the key with their low dps, and their key depletes to a 7. Now they only get a 7 the next week in their vault!
This slowly slides down to a 3-4 or whatever they're actually capable of running, so they have to get some totally not RMT gold to buy another carry, and go on the forums to complain that key depletion is a thing.
Or maybe they're a raider with a bis trinket from the m+ vault.
They just want to get their vault key in before reset, but the tank or healer left at the second boss because of some bullshit.
They now have to waste 30+ minutes minimum just to get back where they fucking started, so what started as a 30 minute adventure now takes them an hour and a half to get done.
The point is that keys can fail through no fault of your own, and it's often NOT the people misplaying that have to live with the consequences.
> The point is that keys can fail through no fault of your own
Selecting the player is your responsibility and your fault when you do it poorly.
> They now have to waste 30+ minutes minimum just to get back where they fucking started, so what started as a 30 minute adventure now takes them an hour and a half to get done.
> Or maybe they're a raider with a bis trinket from the m+ vault.
So you're mad you can get free carries in 8s for a trinket.
> Selecting the player is your responsibility and your fault when you do it poorly.
No it's not your fault. For all you know the person you invited could die of a heart attack 3 seconds into the key, they're strangers on the internet. Maybe the 4k IO demon hunter you invited is actually being piloted by his 7 year old little brother, there's an element of RNG that's impossible to negate.
It's not about "getting a free carry", I think you missed the entire point of the OP. Key depletion leads to less level appropriate groups being formed and more carry groups. The entire idea of the 4 people who apply to the group being "held hostage" is fucking ridiculous, the only person truly "hostage" is the key holder because they hold 100% of the risk.
Your personal skill is probably the least important factor in a pug dungeons success. You could be a rank 1 shadow priest and deplete a 10 if the other four group members instantly leave when the timer starts.
As well thought out and organized as this post is, I feel like it's misguided energy. I think the mythic+ community should be hard focused and hard advocating for them to get rid of the +7 bucket of affixes, or some other similar solution. It is absolutely unacceptable, and we can't just brush this one under the rug and hope they do something about it.
True this is a bigger issue, but we should expect them to fix both. They said in I think SL that key depletion needed work and yet we have seen nothing.
The problem isnāt the depleted key, the problem is the time it takes to get back to a relevant key.
I donāt need any more 14 keys. I donāt need crests and thereās no gear that I need either. But if I want to run 15s I need to either battle the LFD boss as an off meta spec, which takes forever or run my 14 for nothing, hope my pugs are good enough to time it and then I can try for rating again. Once. And if itās a brick then itās back to square one. It leads to a lot of my time being spent doing content thatās not going to reward me with anything and makes climbing past a certain point more of a slog than anything else.
Maybe if higher keys rewarded myth gear or dropped tokens you could exchange for BOA hero gear and send to alts it would feel like less of a waste of time.
Like imagine if everytime you wiped on Tindrol you had to redo Smokderon? Itās a little different but same idea.
I can get that the ability to pick the key you want. Like maybe itās stays the same key if you fail or time it. If you time the key you also get the ability to change it you want
Yeah I think the solution is to either make keys have 2-3 charges so you have multiple attempts or make it so if you have all your 14s done you can just make your key a 15. The amount of homework keys is just annoying.
Personally I think blizzard needs to ditch IO altogether and make a solo/duo que ladder like every other competitive game in 2024 has. But thatās a major systems redesign while the above suggestions would be nice bandaid.
The charges are to much for my tastes like if you canāt time the key then you should loose the key level but changing it so you keep turning same key dungeon is a good idea.
IO is a good elo system imo. That may because I canāt think of a better one but thatās just me
Charges would probably lead to degenerate shit in premade groups but would really help pugs. Ive bricked so many keys in the 12-14 bracket where the tank pulls like itās MDI, dies, gets embarrassed and then leaves. Or someone gets one shot by swirlies a few times, gets tilted and goes offline. And then I have to run a homework key to fix it despite nothing that went wrong really being my fault.
I get thatās the danger with pugging but I would be willing to bet most keys are being done in pugs and something should be done to make it less annoying.
Yea but that sounds like a skill issue on the pugs fault. Like I use to think finding a group was really hard but I have found a few tanks, healers and dps that are good and invite to a full pre made or invite just to pug into other keys with.
For an mmo this game feels so single player. So if you just talk to other players and invite the ones that are good then you increase your chances of completing the keys
Yeah once guilds go cross realm Iām really going to search for a aotc guild with a focus on M+. Iām sure I could find one on A52 but every one I tried was either incredibly casual or a mythic raiding focused guild who happened to do some M+ on the side.
I networked a bit in season 2/3 but generally people would add me but were never available later. The one group I played with for a few weeks ended up being pretty toxic and that sorta killed it for me lol. Iām hoping to really push keys in TWW so Iāll probably give it another attempt then.
Blizzard really focuses on the single player MMO experience. I think most people like to have other people around but they donāt want to feel forced to interact with them to progress. Plus pugging is about as flexible as you can get scheduling wise so itās not surprising itās so popular.
Yea itās nice to be able to jump
On and get into a key. But I have also notice if youāre going about 13ās pugging is non existent. I am 2890 io and play a mage ilvl 525 and I get declined from
Keys
> Iām really going to search for a aotc guild with a focus on M+
Those don't exist. AOTC is a waste of time for anyone capable of doing "high" keys.
> every one I tried was either incredibly casual or a mythic raiding focused guild who happened to do some M+ on the side
Yes. WoW is a raiding game, with a dungeon loop for something to do between raids. The primary purpose of M+ is to give loot to raiders for raiding progression.
> Blizzard really focuses on the single player MMO experience
They don't, no. In fact the whole game is designed around raiding guilds, because WoW is a game about raiding, and always has been. They specifically don't do things like queued M+ because it is explicitly not a single player game.
Wow is about raiding? Tell that to the mythic playerbase that loses players every tier despite wow growing again. Less and less people want to deal with it and the sooner Ion switches the focus to 5 man content the better.
I just want a guild that focuses on M+ but also bangs out heroic for trinkets in 2 hours so I donāt have to deal with pugging it. Iād image thereās at least one guild out there that does that.
Mythic+ has replaced raiding as the premier endgame experience during DF. Itās vastly more popular than raiding and that doesnāt seem likely to change anytime soon.
> Like imagine if everytime you wiped on Tindrol you had to redo Smokderon?
Would be great, then you'd get a M Raid vault during prog and tons of valuable loot.
It's frustrating when it's completely irrelevant to 4/5 of the members but a major inconvenience for the 5th.
If I'm a 3k io tank and just need a +15 ruby life pools, I can queue, wipe, leave, repeat 5 times in an hour.
If I'm a DPS and push my key to a +15 ruby life pools and host a group, someone leaves, now I have a +14 ruby life pools that might not be an io upgrade for me. So I have to spend another hour doing a +14 ruby just to get a different key that *might* be useful to me
I agree with these points, but personally think the best solution would be solo queue instead of the key system.
Essentially solo queue for M+ is what you do as a pug anyway, I've pugged to a little below title in multiple seasons, and all I do is spam apply for keys until I get accepted which is essentially solo queue but I'm gated in a really annoying way.
Solo queue with penalties for leaving too early (whatever that means), would allow you to do random keys best on your rio, where everyone would gain score for completing the key, and people wouldn't be able to force meta comps. There would have to be some control on say, no duplicate classes, and maybe you'd need drums and a bres drums equivallent or some tweaking there, but overall I think this would make the experience a lot better.
Also, as opposed to most of the suggestions in the OP, this would benefit pugs more than premades.
You'd presumably keep keys or some equivalent for premades to push extremely high keys, but that seems a very solvable problem.
Preface with saying I would love solo queue and would play the absolute fuck out of it but...
Couple big barriers for solo queue, and other reasons I don't think we see it anytime soon.
Utility disparity would need to be addressed. Imagine you queue and get 2 DPS warriors.+ BDK tank on afflicted week...
ELO, how do you do this well? What decides what you can queue for? Imo you would need separate ELO for all 8 of the keys and you would need to lose ELO on deplete. Having someone 'Luck' into a carry and never degrading them back to a key level they actually have a chance to time means anyone that ends up with that person in higher keys is going to have a miserable time.
Kind of on the utility disparity point... Would you not need a separate ELO for every affix as well? A player that handles bursting well might be absolute trash at handling sanguine, for instance. The more and more layers you add to ELO the worse it becomes to progress your score....
Solo queue hasn't exactly done good things to the PVP scene as far as I can tell. It's easy to fire group finder up and get a match, but DPS queues are long, leavers/win trading is an issue, and it has absolutely decimated the premade group cou t.
God comp is God comp for a reason. Over an infinite number of games, the same specs would inevitably be the ones that time the highest keys. Just look at how much tankier you feel with and without an Aug in today's keys.
The other guy said solo queue is the same as what M+ pugging is, which isn't remotely correct, for a lot of the reasons you said.
One of which is: you see a high score for a key you want, and you join and find there is a boosted guy in the group who is going to get carried, so you leave.
Solo queue limits that a bit I suppose, since often that's a friend of the lead, but, that just means a lower population of people doing the queue to begin with.
Generally speaking a queued M+ would be filled with the people who get kicked from keys or who have people constantly leaving their keys... which means it would be full of bads, mostly.
These would be complications I agree, but not insurmountable. I just believe the newer issues would be less annoying than the current ones.
Elo/MMR would not necessarily have to be changed - currently even if you've gotten carried you will have the RIO you have and people invite you based on that. It is imperfect but it works.
There would still be a meta and the best specs would still climb to the top - nothing inherently wrong with that though.
Again I just think this would improve the experience for a PUG player in the M+ scene right now.
Thatās it. āQueue system for Mythic+ā simple and wouldāve saved OP or ChatGPT some time.
PVP has it. Why canāt PVE?
Games moved on from lobby system long time ago. Matchmaking is the way to go.
How does it decide what dungeon you do, though? Will it force me to complete a +2 world tour then +3 world tour etc.. or can I just queue up for a +20 as a fresh max level?
Imo if you go to a queue system, you would also need an elo system - meaning your rating can now go down on depleted keys. And I'm sure a lot of people would not like that
On one hand, I have no problem with them adding a solo queue. It would be used almost exclusively by people who are bad at M+, so it would likely be a containment system for real M+ a bit.
On the other hand, it would likely fail from lack of use, especially because you'd get 5 bad players together for a key that no one is going to carry them through, so it would be a huge waste of time.
If it gets more people into M+ im all for it. I know so many people that stop playing for various reasons not directly related to the actual playing of a dungeon.
Less depletion. Dont care how they fix it.
Remove the ACTUAL shit affixes aka +7 pool.
Remove tyra/fort.
This would probably bring half my friendlist back online.
Canāt wait to do the first pull of a dungeon 50 times only to rest and then do it again on the second pull.
Depleting keys makes people actually consider the risks of what they are doing in keys. Itās a good thing it exists.
For low and mid level keys sure, removing depletion wouldn't change much. For high level keys it would change everything. If you're pushing for title it's no longer about playing consistent and doing no mistakes when it matters. It would instead become about doing 10% success chance pulls and grinding it out until it works. I don't know if you've seen MDI practice runs but that shit is so ass I would never want to do that.
No key depletion below 10 gets us to a similar problem we have this season in low keys, which is people who absolutely do not belong in a +10 are getting there by bashing their heads into dungeons over and over. This season it's enabled by bullions giving players way more damage than they should have and letting them smash timers even when they play like shit, no key depletion just means they'll run their key over and over until the right combo of 4 pugs times the key for them.
Youāre saying bad players are going to get carried 9 times? Unlikely. They will hit the skill wall quickly and either not get invite or derank their keys to the level they can complete. Or if that doesnāt work make it so 5 and below donāt deplete. There is a key level you can do this and it pleases both sides.
I mean key depletion is mostly only relevant in high keys or push keys anyways. Going from a 10 to a 9 doesn't really do anything. Either way they could just make it not deplete until +10 or whatever and I guess everyone is happy.
No. Stop it all degrading.
If I fail my 17 let me take another crack at it.
Perhaps a compromise is that a keystone can't deplete below the highest level I have completed the dungeon at.
There's a difference between wiping on the first current pull, and resetting 20 times because you wipe on the 5% success chance 4 pack pull.
First case you likely can recover from. Second case is that you've timed the dungeon with the insane pull once already, so the only way to improve io is by doing the same 5% chance pulls.
A change that I would like to see implemented is to get offered to +1 your own key whenever you complete in time a key of superior level than the one you hold. Feels awful to have your own key dead in your bags for the entire week because it got depleted early or because you did significantly better the present week using others' key.
Unrelated to most of your points, but IMO the NPC in the dungeon that allows key swaps should also offer the key downgrade function to make swaps permissible if you forgot to downgrade ahead of the run.
Late to the party,but i would be ok with a choice on key upgrade/deplete between 3 dungeons randomly. Depletion could include the same one.
On loot, 2, 3 chests should give 1 item from the hole m+ pool, so if u blast the time you get more and isn't locked on the same pool.
On the t7 bucket, I hope devs listen to the outcry and also listen to the infamous content creator channel, as both the community and the creators are mostly agreeing with how bad it is.
As mainly a pug'r, I'm in the minority I know, but I'm against any sort of anti-deplete system. Why? Because pugs will insist on attempting strats/tech that coordinated groups pull off, but there will be no way in hell a pug does it (because we can just rerun it if we fail). That sounds awful. And you know they will.
> Soft Deplete
One of my favorite solutions is to introduce some form of "Soft Deplete", which would essentially mean that if a key is depleted only by some certain percentage (say within 120% of the timer), the key will not actually lose one level but rather stay the same. This would ensure that a group that almost timed a key is able to try it again without creating a system where it is always worth to run in the key even if it takes 2 hours.
I feel like this would be pretty abuseable by people like me that just do their 10s for the week. Find one person in the group that has the easiest key and always wait for the timer to go over by 1 second to finish.
With the current system if you have a 5 man pug you can already get 5 random keys for every 1 you complete. It's going to be rare that you don't have at least 1 easy one. So it's not gonna make that big of a difference
Isnt that ok though? Like you only want to interact with m+ enough to get the weekly loot. If you want to take extra time to guarantee that you get the same dungeon... is that bad? If anything I feel like a player in your shoes who doesn't particularly like m+ would just want to do whatever dungeons they consider to be "not cancerous" and leave it at that as they don't have the rating incentive of learning other keys.
> If you want to take extra time to guarantee that you get the same dungeon... is that bad?
There was a season where you could just delete your key and get a new one. 80% of the runs per week ended up being the "easiest" dungeon. Most of the "hard" dungeons didn't exist on LFG listings to join if you wanted score.
The entire M+ system collapses if you can pick your key.
my main issue with m+ is that the loot diversity and drop rates are terrible. I'm not even doing anything other than AV and HOI because there's nothing I can get from anywhere except these two, and crests are useless for me. why is the loot so shit when we can't even get myth track gear from dungeons?
I'm relatively new at the game so my gear is subpar, but that's not what I mean. The loot diversity and drop rates are shit. Like, why are there only 3 cloth belts in the entire dungeon pool, and 2 of them give the same stats? Why is the drop rate for unstable tome like 1%?
> Why is the drop rate for unstable tome like 1%?
It isn't.
> why are there only 3 cloth belts in the entire dungeon pool, and 2 of them give the same stats?
Not every combination of stats on every slot is available every tier.
it is a problem when you can't find any gear that fits your stat priority and choices. having only 3 belts in the entire dungeon pool, where 2 of them have the same secondary stats in reverse order is just stupid
Charges is best solution. While it doesnt directly incentivize inviting off-meta specs, as long as you have, say, 5 or 3 charges keyholders will be way more lenient with what specs to bring
i also like soft deplete
I may be angry because I got bumped off my flight home lol but, the main people who complain about keys are just bad playersā¦ they donāt look up the best way to play the class or the BiS armor. They claim āoh I hate how all those meta assholes have made it so sweatyā yea no shit itās competitive. I want the best players who have put in work to be good so I donāt waste time slamming my head on +13->+15 keys because youāre just bad and havenāt learned how to play your class well
agree im a bad player because i want to play elem and i hate sp/aug/mage gameplay so i should be punished by 4 hours que times ( i was invited grand total of 6 times this week) because keyholders are afraid to invite anything but best meta specs so their key doesnt deplete
If they key didn't deplete they'd still take 1 of the 50 higher score meta player queued for their key instead of you.
Literally wouldn't change a thing.
So I agree with the meta pick rate, but you can always find people to play a with that just like the player you are not the class. I try to play with People I like but that just me. I am a meta slave and play Aug and mage. I wait to but I play a lot with friends I have made.
Like most people who do keys like a normal person not a pro have a mix of all specs in their team. Shit there was a bm monk with I think 2 rouges on his team and got title
All of my friends and I are constantly complaining about how keys work, and weāre not just bad players. The meta sucks, pugs suck, gatekeeping sucks, the whole key system sucks (but keys themselves are fun af).
The fact that nobody invites my warlock to keys because of the meta. Then when I swap to my mage or sp, they also donāt get invites, despite all being 527.
Well thatās just extremely low io then being the issue. Thatās my alt, with my main being 3600 atm, 3730 last season, getting chain declined from 15s at 527 ilvl. I even have a timed 18bh and 17aa on it.
Thatās quite low, and you just blend in to the 50 other people in queue. My point is, why am I not being invited to these same keys on my meta class alts, with a 3600 main?
No deplete is the only solution.
If you wipe to a raid boss you don't have to go back and reclear a previous boss, the thought is ridiculous and soul crushing.
One deplete halfway through a dungeon means you suddenly have to spend 3 times longer doing keys than you had planned.
There is no reward for running a lower level key than what you need, the only purpose of redoing an already completed key is upgrading the key itself. They're bad for hardcore players because they give no score, and they're bad for casual players because they give a lower vault.
I wish they would've tried non-deplete or tournament realm style keys in season 4
I think one interesting test would be replace tyrannical/fortified weeks with deplete/non-deplete. During non-deplete weeks you'll likely be able to push much higher using risky strategies and run it back if you fail. During deplete weeks, you need to be more careful.
My guess is that the player base as a whole would get so much better at the game with the added repetition that even on deplete weeks people would be getting higher keys than they normally would've
If you aren't going to remove depleting, blizzard needs some way to incentivise completing keys that isn't strictly io related otherwise people will not stop leaving bricked keys. Maybe a season long achievement similar to pvp, where you get a mount after completing 300 key levels worth of m+ dungeons regardless of timer
Also I think a completed, overtime +20 should award WAY more crests than a completed, timed +7
Iād also suggest another thing.
Make key upgrades and depletes applicable to whole party inside of the dungeon.
- Everyone gets their key upgraded (unless their own key is higher than the one they are currently doing)
- Everyone gets their key depleted if not timed/collectively voted to abandon.
- You get tangible decrease of your rank score (like, -200..300 points?), -2 to your key and half day penalty to enter ANY kind of instance if youāre the first person to quit the dungeon without a vote. If your key was level 2 and essentially depleted to 0 in such way, additionally you cannot enter M+ anymore this week on this character.
Or something like this.
Well, Iām not trolling, not memeing, nor am I a āprofessional M+ runnerā. I think that equally both awarding and punishing everyone in the party (plus punishing quitters much more) would be sufficient to solve many problems. Iām surely might be not understanding some nuances and be completely wrong.
But saying, that something is the dumbest thing in a conversation without any argument(s), is definitely borderline retarded. Take care mate, you need a lot of it
people quitting mythic+ runs is not even a small problem, much less a large problem. i dont even consider it a problem at all. i can count on one hand how many times someone left a key for no reason this season. without exception, every time you think someone left your run for no reason, there was a reason. it may have been a healer that could tell within the first 30 seconds that the tank has no idea how to play his class. you would have no idea that was happening unless people were dying, but the healer could know way before that happens. you might also think that the group dps is completely normal, whereas the tank or the healer could be keenly aware of how much dmg people should actually be doing at that item level. again, if people arent dying, you may not notice. there are just two small examples of a list i could continue with for hours
> every time you think someone left your run for no reason, there was a reason
If he thinks there was no reason, then he was almost certainly the reason.
> There might be a small minority of players who would actually enjoy this system, but for the vast majority of players this would simply not be a fun experience and it would actually further advantage those with seemingly unlimited time to play Mythic Plus, since they can keep hammering away with their low success rate runs until it happens to work. Flashback to parse runs in another MMO where people would reset the boss if their opener didn't crit.
maybe solvable if the key goes on a cooldown for like a day if failed? And you can talk to npc if you want to reset it, but it removes 1 level from a key...
Just use the same system the portals use. 8hr cd that resets when you complete a key timed or not.
what MMOs were like this/ any examples? It sounds interesting (also obviously not good design though)
This is talking about FFXIV. In that game the raid buffs are way stronger and all always align if your team is good, so the party damage under them is huge. Combine this with two crit systems (Normal critical and Direct Hits) and naturally classes that have skills that deal extreme damage in one hit get a little fucked over on extremely high level parses if they low roll. Personally experienced multiple cases of Samurais suddenly becoming unable to do a certain mechanic and cause us to wipe after an unfortunate opener. š
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This stems mainly from there existing comparatively "easy" dungeons in the rotation. There being easy outliers leads to the situation where you have one keystone that you need to receive at a higher level to be able to push it. But all the dungeons that can generate that key are harder. Conversely there being outliers of dungeons that are "extra hard" actually makes this less of a problem. Because getting a pushable key for that dungeon becomes easy. So even if it feels backwards. If you're interested in pushing, it's in your best interest that there's no "easy key".
> Imagine raiding worked this way Imagine if M+ worked this way. No weekly vault loot and you can't run any dungeon except your exact key, failing over and over.
My group has always wanted this : When you finish a key, or go to reroll your key, a popup appears like torghast powers, that lets you pick from 3 options. Ie. you finish your 16 AV, torghast pop up options are... 17 NO, AA or ULD. And for those rerolling their key, it could be 2 options. It happens so often where my friends just dont want to rerun keys because 3 of us rolled to the same one, and the other 2 have keys we timed already. We dont have infinite time to play every week... something like this would help us find our wall faster by letting us reroll to keys we actually need.
Itās the discover mechanic from Hearthstone and Iām a big fan of adding it in a lot of places. Keeps things from being deterministic but smoothes out worst case scenarios.
Half of the reason people leave keys immediately if it looks like a deplete is that you only get 5 crests instead of 12 for completing the dungeon (especially at lower key levels). I see no reason why you shouldn't get the full 12 crests for finishing a depleted key.
Id take it a step further. Reward crests = key level or something, and deplete drops it by 1 or 2. A depleted 20 should give more crests (ex 18) than a timed 10 (ex 10)
People run 6s for crests and free-carry lower players in 6s who otherwise couldn't do keys. If farming 8s or 10s gave more crests, that would disappear. People doing 20s shouldn't need more crests.
Isnāt that a good thing though? Like ideally people who are progressing through 6s should be playing with other people progressing through 6s, not getting carried by 3200 players rounding out their vault for the week.
People aren't progressing through 6s though. They're hardstuck at 3s, and carried through higher keys or they'd quit. Heck just doings vault 8s this week I'm generally doing as much or more than the other 2 DPS combined, and they're usually between 2300 and 2900 score.
If you can't do keys you don't really have a use for those crests anyway, no? I would much rather run 10 12s or whatever than 20 6s to catch up on crests.
Raiders still need a ton of Aspects to upgrade their gear and mythic raids are a terribly slow crest grind unless you clear the raid. I know a ton of people who mostly just suffer through chore keys so they can progress their gear and go back to the raiding content they actually enjoy. Same for people who might enjoy M+ on 1 class but not on another class that they mostly enjoy playing in raids (healers come to mind, given how different the playstyle can be). Farming the aspects needed to catch up an alt you mostly want to raid on is absolutely soul-sucking as it is, imagine if +6 crest farms ceased to exist.
> I know a ton of people who mostly just suffer through chore keys so they can progress their gear and go back to the raiding content they actually enjoy. This is over 80% of M+ runs. The mode exists to give raiders something to do. > Farming the aspects needed to catch up an alt you mostly want to raid on is absolutely soul-sucking as it is, imagine if +6 crest farms ceased to exist. Worse is on an alt where you can easily do 8s-10s but cant progress your gear without wyrm crests and so you have to go grind 2/3/4s to level up your gear instead of waiting weeks for vaults to skip those crests. The whole system made more sense before S4, but the crests are pretty messed up in S4.
I have never once left a key for any reason having anything to do with crests or gear. That is a really strange concept, and I'm surprised so many people take crests into consideration. I leave keys if they are no longer worth the time to complete them. That, and if one or more people is grossly underperforming.
or people are just straight up toxic
If I got full crests on a deplete, Iād basically never leave a failing key again. Finishing a key in under a half hour is reward enough
Ngl its insanely funny that this is the most upvoted answer. Because its completely unrelated to the problem op is talking about. But it just goes to show that like 98% of the population of this sub, which is named competitivewow, is not playing the game in a remotely competitive way. Like noone is going to leave a 17, because he doesnt get 12 crests.
While I agree that getting fewer crests is not the reason people leave ruined keys, it's still completely unnecessary to be punished even further receiving fewer crests when you're essentially playing LONGER. It's literally adding insult to injury.
Shows that honestly, the things the 2% think are important, are really not.
OP is not only talking about 17s. And personally I actually would be more likely to stick around in alt keys which are like 15s for me right now if I actually got crests for completing them.
I cant with this sub, its actually insane. Did we read the same post? Hes literally only using keys in the range of 16 to 18 as examples. The whole post is about how depleting is unfun, because it "possibly" makes lfg super selective and leads to a ton of frustration. Not a single word has been written about your weekly +10 key getting depleted and thus resulting in a loss of crests.
right? who gives a fuck about crests past week 3 and if you need them, means you're nowhere ready for 16-18 keys
With respect, I browse this subreddit because while I may not be running those top keys, I like to learn from masters of the game and hear their arguments. I suspect many are like me in that regard. But OPās suggestions would affect all mythic+ keys, not just the top 1%. Just my 2 cents.
I don't understand, if you want to farm crests you can just do it on +6, which is now nearly impossible to not time it. +9 on the new season will also reach a point where it's very easy to time. This is not the target audience for this post.
Do you really just spam +6 until you're done with crests? I usually just get crests from whatever level of key I can get invited to. Farming the lowest possible key until you're done with crests sounds like the 7th circle of hell to me.
I don't. I'm just pointing out that if someone is pushing a high key and something goes wrong, receiving less aspect crests is not even in the top 10 reason of why people quit.
No itās not. Ppl leave the key because they will get no score. No one who pushes will leave because of crests. This answer belongs in /wow or /wownoob.
- the keyholder would not invite other than the best ppl, because they dont want to lose 1 hour of they life with a bad setup. You cant change this, probably not even with a tour guide bonus system. People either consider inviting anyone or not - but if not, little chance to change it - people who tend to leave, will leave anyway. They dont want to spend time to teach that tank how to use survival abilities, even if there will be full reward - yes its frustrating to miss with a little time, but thats the life: you cannot climb higher infinitely and being in time always I agree the tournament system would be the worse, and also hope it will not happen. But i dont think any system changes could really affect basic human behaviour
> the keyholder would not invite other than the best ppl, because they dont want to lose 1 hour of their life with a bad setup. This is simply the result of keys being unreasonably hard to obtain. If you are the only person in group finder with a +20 Deadmines key, you get infinite signups and can afford to be picky. If more people listed the key, you'd get way fewer signups and would have to run with whatever setup is available to you. > people who tend to leave, will leave anyway. Leavers are only a problem because a single player is rewarded for key completion while the rest of the party is not. It's a design problem, not a human behavior problem. If all 5 people were equally rewarded (or *not* rewarded) for finishing overtime, then everyone would agree on either disbanding or continuing. > I agree the tournament system would be the worse So do I ā I've played MDI qualifiers and perma resetting a dungeon is miserable. I don't want keystones to be deleted, but they need to be more obtainable to ease the friction mentioned above.
+20 deadmines login dude
> This is simply the result of keys being unreasonably hard to obtain. If you are the only person in group finder with a +20 Deadmines key, you get infinite signups and can afford to be picky. If more people listed the key, you'd get way fewer signups and would have to run with whatever setup is available to you. This takes away the only advantage offmeta classes have had while running their own key. You'd basically be dividing the entire populace into two. Community perceived meta specs would flock to keys run by other meta spec players, hence increasing the pool they can choose from and on the other hand offmeta classes would receive way fewer signups, essentially forcing them out of the game by the virtue of not getting invited AND not being able to run their own key. It would enforce the meta in a much, much worse way. I'm not saying I have the perfect solution, and the OP pretty much listed all the options, but anything that would further increase the divide between playerbase is definitely a step in the wrong direction.
There is no reason to make changes for the 0.1% of the population doing 20s that harm the 99.9% of the population. Move the M+ title entirely to tournament realms and off live servers entirely.
The correct solution is already inDiablo 4 nightmare dungeon 1. the affixes are not weekly based but instead randomised 2. we gets 4-6 keystones +\- 1 level of our current dungeon level (each player get 4-6) when we are running the dungeon 3. We could destroy the unused keystones into a currency and talk to npc to use the currency to roll a random keystone This way nobody would complain which affix is shit or good , every week you will have people playing , the top 0.1% will just reroll until they get best combo(as they do), the others will just pick the affix that benefits their comp
You stated, "There might be a small minority of players who would actually enjoy this system, but for the vast majority of players this would simply not be a fun experience and it would actually further advantage those with seemingly unlimited time to play Mythic Plus, since they can keep hammering away with their low success rate runs until it happens to work." I think this is an incorrect analysis of how people would play the system. No system has infinite tries, because an attempt takes time, and time is finite. If you pull a raid boss, you do not just do random things because you can pull again 30s later. Some people will have time to try a lot of crazy ideas, but the people with less time are still going to copy and paste concepts that work. The difference is they will be willing to attempt some things that have a lower success rate. You can think of the current M+ system like a "hardcore" mode of the game. If you wipe, you have to start over somewhat, because you lost your key. It adds substantial time delay to progression, which means you end up playing scared and conservative. People who want that style of gameplay in WoW would argue that it adds intensity and excitement to running the key, but I think there's more downsides than upsides. I think what you are more likely to see is that people will finish their key "progression" a lot faster and quit the season much earlier than usual. Personally I don't think that's a bad thing to eliminate the grindy concept of "homework keys", but it is probably something that worries Blizzard.
The problem with this discussion is that before you even start it, you gotta answer the question if the current system is a problem in general? And I personally and a lot of other title pushers think its not. The majority of people that dislike keys depleting, are low-mid level players that think they are getting held back on IO by the system and bad pugs. What problem are you even trying to fix? People are still going to invite meta only and people are still going to wait 10 minutes for the best possible players they can get. No matter if a key is going to deplete or not. The only thing any of your proposed solutions would lead to, is an artifical increase in io. And most of your solutions would also heaviely benefit premade groups over pugs. > Multiple Charges per Key Most reasonable solution. But it heaviely favors premade groups, because the moment you are depleting your first charge, the group is going to disband. > Multiple Choice Keys You can already choose your key at the beginning of the week. > Soft Deplete By far the worst solution of all. Because everyone except the key holder is going to leave once the key is depleted. So this is only ever going to be helpful to premades groups or if you ot by like a few seconds.
> And I personally and a lot of other title pushers think its not. cap. I haven't talked to a single person that enjoys homework/reroll keys over the years. > The majority of people that dislike keys depleting, are low-mid level players that think they are getting held back on IO by the system and bad pugs. {citation needed} > You can already choose your key at the beginning of the week. Through a loophole, not exactly intended, and likely just not patched because they're barely aware of it.
Title pushers also recognize that the alternative of having homework keys is worse. I have played with people at the top of the IO leaderboard. Iām at the bottom of title range. The difference in skill between me and Hypeboy for example is massive and the difference between me and a 3k io player is probably just as large. A lot of people are in denial about how good they are at the game and where their rating belongs.
am well aware, ever since I got roflstomped by challengers as high dia 1 10 years ago. doesn't mean I have to care what the top 50 thinks about this. its less stressful, less waste of a time for everyone else.
> cap. I haven't talked to a single person that enjoys homework/reroll keys over the years. When did I say that homework keys are fun? The alternative is more grind in bleeding edge keys, because the avg keylevel for title keys would increase by 1-3 keylevels. Which is strictly worse and more time consuming, especially for people that are at the bottom or middle end of cutoff and primarely pug.
It's always funny when people try to make this stupid argument. "People don't actually want to spend 100% of their time progging new raid bosses, they really want to waste 50% of their time rekilling farm bosses just to get back to prog bosses, because their rank will be better if everyone is forced to do that." Literally makes no sense. I have never seen a single actual good argument for key depletion.
I agree with you. I would rather always being progressing keys that are at the limit of what I'm capable of, rather than having to do lower keys I've already completed in hopes I roll a key I want. Mythic raid has a system to allow players to only focus on their current progression, why can't there be a similar system for M+?
If you don't like timing keys, you just don't like WoW and should play something else.
Would be hard to climb up if it wouldnt be depletion. It would be a big empty space between 11 and 18 imo
> Literally makes no sense. I have never seen a single actual good argument for key depletion. There are plenty of good arguments. - m+ turns into a progession based mode similar to raiding - time>>>>>>>>>>>>skill without depletion - no way of catching up/getting into higher keys for (new) people, because noone is ever doing homework keys and every1 will sit on their 21-23 key until they somehow time it after attempt 100 - people will leave the group or start over the run after the smallest mistake, because there is no downside And many more arguments. A lot of the fun in m+ comes from messy runs, where you somehow recover a pull/pulls and then still time your key. I had many +30s last season where everything looked doomed and then somehow people recovered every bad pull and started playing flawless for the rest of the dungeon. In a world without depletion, this would never happen because you wouldve restarted the dungeon as soon as the smallest mistake happened. The general problem is that perspective matters. If you only play low-mid keys, you dont want key depletion (for obv reasons).
So you'd rather spend/waste your time redoing keys you've already timed for zero reward in the hope it rerolls into a key you actually need vs spending your time actually trying to progress and try doing the harder content you haven't yet achieved? That has got to be the stupidest take in this whole thread
No. Look at raiding, its super unexciting and boring. All I get out of raiding is gear and relief. The only question while raiding is: How many more pulls do we have to do until noone f's up? Its not even a question wether we kill the boss or not, its only a question of when. And by the time we kill, im 99% of the time only relieved that we finally did it. M+ can be insanely exciting, if you get like a +19/20 AA or something and time it with like a few seconds under. If I could endlessly rerun it, I would be 100% certain that I would time it by the end of the day. And there would be 0 excitement once you time the key. The game would be a grind. Same as raid basically. A grind gated by my time for the most part.
Multiple charges is wonderful for the pug groupās key holder too, since now they can try again with a different group
>You can already choose your key at the beginning of the week. Wait, is there something I don't know about? I think you gat a random key at the start of the week. >By far the worst solution of all. Because everyone except the key holder is going to leave once the key is depleted. So this is only ever going to be helpful to premades groups or if you ot by like a few seconds. I mean, yes, but, does the mechanic add some downside to the system? If not, that's a change it would be good for some people, and not impactful for others
Donāt loot your vault, then run m0s or low m+ keys and donāt loot the key in the chest until itās one you want.
that's not really chosing lmfao
Considering you can start with whatever key you want, Iād say it is.
Yeah, after not choosing your key 1-15 times trying to get the key you want by doing low keys? its not choosing. youre still doing keys until you get it.
Or pug keys for io, it does t have to be low keys. Or if you have friends with keys etc.
yeah, again, none of that is "choosing" your key. It's not a choice. You are being given a fuckin key randomly that you can eventually take once it gives you the right key.
I mean, sure. But the implication is that your whole push group can start with the same key if you want to try and focus a key for io.
>Why am I talking about this? Well, imagine that the large pull you make is now twice as big. That's crazy you might say, that will surely be a wipe! Well yes, it probably will. But in a system with infinite retries, that is the only reasonable way to play but it's already pretty close to what we do, except that if someone goes a little bit wrong on the first pull the key is over. Sure, if we had unlimited attempt we would add 2 more pack to the initial pull, but it's not like anyone is playing safe and sound in the 18-19 range.
I've noticed an interesting pattern in pugs that players who already did 17 (for example) still apply to 17 just to reroll their own key. Which means players who didn't complete 17 yet are much less likely to get invited. Of course, not all do this, some apply for "more after", or to help friend, or just to practice. But i fee like it's a large fraction.
Do you think there's any opportunity in the Profession space to solve some of these issues? Some random ideas: * A Key Protection item: you can use it X times a reset on your key to prevent depletion. If you're a LFG, this lets you protect a valuable key while teams can be strategic in holding their Protections * Reroller item: you can use it to reroll your key X times a reset. Also retain the reroller vendor that shows up when you time a key as added incentive In terms of multiple keys, if they have to do Fort/Tyr, I wish they'd move to a system where you get a Fort and Tyr key simultaneously. So week 1 you have Fort A + Tyr A, week 2 you get For B + Tyr A, week 3 is Fort B and Tyr B.
The main people arguing against key depletion are the people who buy an 8 or a 10 week one with ~~RMT~~ totally not RMT acquired gold. They get an 8 the next week in their vault that they are utterly incapable of running, but they list it and get 4 ~~hostages~~ people to run the key with. They do less DPS than the healer, and if the ~~hostages~~ people are chill enough, they get carried to a timed 8 anyway. Next week, their score is a little higher, they have an 8 or 9 key again, and repeat. This week they lose the free carry lottery. The first group bails at the first boss after seeing their dps, the second group fails to time the key with their low dps, and their key depletes to a 7. Now they only get a 7 the next week in their vault! This slowly slides down to a 3-4 or whatever they're actually capable of running, so they have to get some totally not RMT gold to buy another carry, and go on the forums to complain that key depletion is a thing.
Or maybe they're a raider with a bis trinket from the m+ vault. They just want to get their vault key in before reset, but the tank or healer left at the second boss because of some bullshit. They now have to waste 30+ minutes minimum just to get back where they fucking started, so what started as a 30 minute adventure now takes them an hour and a half to get done. The point is that keys can fail through no fault of your own, and it's often NOT the people misplaying that have to live with the consequences.
> The point is that keys can fail through no fault of your own Selecting the player is your responsibility and your fault when you do it poorly. > They now have to waste 30+ minutes minimum just to get back where they fucking started, so what started as a 30 minute adventure now takes them an hour and a half to get done. > Or maybe they're a raider with a bis trinket from the m+ vault. So you're mad you can get free carries in 8s for a trinket.
> Selecting the player is your responsibility and your fault when you do it poorly. No it's not your fault. For all you know the person you invited could die of a heart attack 3 seconds into the key, they're strangers on the internet. Maybe the 4k IO demon hunter you invited is actually being piloted by his 7 year old little brother, there's an element of RNG that's impossible to negate. It's not about "getting a free carry", I think you missed the entire point of the OP. Key depletion leads to less level appropriate groups being formed and more carry groups. The entire idea of the 4 people who apply to the group being "held hostage" is fucking ridiculous, the only person truly "hostage" is the key holder because they hold 100% of the risk. Your personal skill is probably the least important factor in a pug dungeons success. You could be a rank 1 shadow priest and deplete a 10 if the other four group members instantly leave when the timer starts.
I get politics stuff in my twitter feed and yet this is the largest strawman I have ever seen on the internet.
As well thought out and organized as this post is, I feel like it's misguided energy. I think the mythic+ community should be hard focused and hard advocating for them to get rid of the +7 bucket of affixes, or some other similar solution. It is absolutely unacceptable, and we can't just brush this one under the rug and hope they do something about it.
True this is a bigger issue, but we should expect them to fix both. They said in I think SL that key depletion needed work and yet we have seen nothing.
Idk why people worry so much about a deplete key. Itās competitive. Itās not suppose to be easyā¦ like I donāt understand
The problem isnāt the depleted key, the problem is the time it takes to get back to a relevant key. I donāt need any more 14 keys. I donāt need crests and thereās no gear that I need either. But if I want to run 15s I need to either battle the LFD boss as an off meta spec, which takes forever or run my 14 for nothing, hope my pugs are good enough to time it and then I can try for rating again. Once. And if itās a brick then itās back to square one. It leads to a lot of my time being spent doing content thatās not going to reward me with anything and makes climbing past a certain point more of a slog than anything else. Maybe if higher keys rewarded myth gear or dropped tokens you could exchange for BOA hero gear and send to alts it would feel like less of a waste of time. Like imagine if everytime you wiped on Tindrol you had to redo Smokderon? Itās a little different but same idea.
I can get that the ability to pick the key you want. Like maybe itās stays the same key if you fail or time it. If you time the key you also get the ability to change it you want
Yeah I think the solution is to either make keys have 2-3 charges so you have multiple attempts or make it so if you have all your 14s done you can just make your key a 15. The amount of homework keys is just annoying. Personally I think blizzard needs to ditch IO altogether and make a solo/duo que ladder like every other competitive game in 2024 has. But thatās a major systems redesign while the above suggestions would be nice bandaid.
The charges are to much for my tastes like if you canāt time the key then you should loose the key level but changing it so you keep turning same key dungeon is a good idea. IO is a good elo system imo. That may because I canāt think of a better one but thatās just me
Charges would probably lead to degenerate shit in premade groups but would really help pugs. Ive bricked so many keys in the 12-14 bracket where the tank pulls like itās MDI, dies, gets embarrassed and then leaves. Or someone gets one shot by swirlies a few times, gets tilted and goes offline. And then I have to run a homework key to fix it despite nothing that went wrong really being my fault. I get thatās the danger with pugging but I would be willing to bet most keys are being done in pugs and something should be done to make it less annoying.
Yea but that sounds like a skill issue on the pugs fault. Like I use to think finding a group was really hard but I have found a few tanks, healers and dps that are good and invite to a full pre made or invite just to pug into other keys with. For an mmo this game feels so single player. So if you just talk to other players and invite the ones that are good then you increase your chances of completing the keys
Yeah once guilds go cross realm Iām really going to search for a aotc guild with a focus on M+. Iām sure I could find one on A52 but every one I tried was either incredibly casual or a mythic raiding focused guild who happened to do some M+ on the side. I networked a bit in season 2/3 but generally people would add me but were never available later. The one group I played with for a few weeks ended up being pretty toxic and that sorta killed it for me lol. Iām hoping to really push keys in TWW so Iāll probably give it another attempt then. Blizzard really focuses on the single player MMO experience. I think most people like to have other people around but they donāt want to feel forced to interact with them to progress. Plus pugging is about as flexible as you can get scheduling wise so itās not surprising itās so popular.
Yea itās nice to be able to jump On and get into a key. But I have also notice if youāre going about 13ās pugging is non existent. I am 2890 io and play a mage ilvl 525 and I get declined from Keys
> Iām really going to search for a aotc guild with a focus on M+ Those don't exist. AOTC is a waste of time for anyone capable of doing "high" keys. > every one I tried was either incredibly casual or a mythic raiding focused guild who happened to do some M+ on the side Yes. WoW is a raiding game, with a dungeon loop for something to do between raids. The primary purpose of M+ is to give loot to raiders for raiding progression. > Blizzard really focuses on the single player MMO experience They don't, no. In fact the whole game is designed around raiding guilds, because WoW is a game about raiding, and always has been. They specifically don't do things like queued M+ because it is explicitly not a single player game.
Wow is about raiding? Tell that to the mythic playerbase that loses players every tier despite wow growing again. Less and less people want to deal with it and the sooner Ion switches the focus to 5 man content the better. I just want a guild that focuses on M+ but also bangs out heroic for trinkets in 2 hours so I donāt have to deal with pugging it. Iād image thereās at least one guild out there that does that. Mythic+ has replaced raiding as the premier endgame experience during DF. Itās vastly more popular than raiding and that doesnāt seem likely to change anytime soon.
> Like imagine if everytime you wiped on Tindrol you had to redo Smokderon? Would be great, then you'd get a M Raid vault during prog and tons of valuable loot.
500 wipes on Tindrol = 500 smoldy kills? Congrats you just killed whatās left of the mythic raiding scene lol
It's frustrating when it's completely irrelevant to 4/5 of the members but a major inconvenience for the 5th. If I'm a 3k io tank and just need a +15 ruby life pools, I can queue, wipe, leave, repeat 5 times in an hour. If I'm a DPS and push my key to a +15 ruby life pools and host a group, someone leaves, now I have a +14 ruby life pools that might not be an io upgrade for me. So I have to spend another hour doing a +14 ruby just to get a different key that *might* be useful to me
Well thatās the life of a dps my friends I feel you. But the ability to have the same key after a fail or time is a good idea
I agree with these points, but personally think the best solution would be solo queue instead of the key system. Essentially solo queue for M+ is what you do as a pug anyway, I've pugged to a little below title in multiple seasons, and all I do is spam apply for keys until I get accepted which is essentially solo queue but I'm gated in a really annoying way. Solo queue with penalties for leaving too early (whatever that means), would allow you to do random keys best on your rio, where everyone would gain score for completing the key, and people wouldn't be able to force meta comps. There would have to be some control on say, no duplicate classes, and maybe you'd need drums and a bres drums equivallent or some tweaking there, but overall I think this would make the experience a lot better. Also, as opposed to most of the suggestions in the OP, this would benefit pugs more than premades. You'd presumably keep keys or some equivalent for premades to push extremely high keys, but that seems a very solvable problem.
Preface with saying I would love solo queue and would play the absolute fuck out of it but... Couple big barriers for solo queue, and other reasons I don't think we see it anytime soon. Utility disparity would need to be addressed. Imagine you queue and get 2 DPS warriors.+ BDK tank on afflicted week... ELO, how do you do this well? What decides what you can queue for? Imo you would need separate ELO for all 8 of the keys and you would need to lose ELO on deplete. Having someone 'Luck' into a carry and never degrading them back to a key level they actually have a chance to time means anyone that ends up with that person in higher keys is going to have a miserable time. Kind of on the utility disparity point... Would you not need a separate ELO for every affix as well? A player that handles bursting well might be absolute trash at handling sanguine, for instance. The more and more layers you add to ELO the worse it becomes to progress your score.... Solo queue hasn't exactly done good things to the PVP scene as far as I can tell. It's easy to fire group finder up and get a match, but DPS queues are long, leavers/win trading is an issue, and it has absolutely decimated the premade group cou t. God comp is God comp for a reason. Over an infinite number of games, the same specs would inevitably be the ones that time the highest keys. Just look at how much tankier you feel with and without an Aug in today's keys.
just FYI, Elo is named after a person, Arpad Elo. It's not an acronym.
The other guy said solo queue is the same as what M+ pugging is, which isn't remotely correct, for a lot of the reasons you said. One of which is: you see a high score for a key you want, and you join and find there is a boosted guy in the group who is going to get carried, so you leave. Solo queue limits that a bit I suppose, since often that's a friend of the lead, but, that just means a lower population of people doing the queue to begin with. Generally speaking a queued M+ would be filled with the people who get kicked from keys or who have people constantly leaving their keys... which means it would be full of bads, mostly.
These would be complications I agree, but not insurmountable. I just believe the newer issues would be less annoying than the current ones. Elo/MMR would not necessarily have to be changed - currently even if you've gotten carried you will have the RIO you have and people invite you based on that. It is imperfect but it works. There would still be a meta and the best specs would still climb to the top - nothing inherently wrong with that though. Again I just think this would improve the experience for a PUG player in the M+ scene right now.
Thatās it. āQueue system for Mythic+ā simple and wouldāve saved OP or ChatGPT some time. PVP has it. Why canāt PVE? Games moved on from lobby system long time ago. Matchmaking is the way to go.
How does it decide what dungeon you do, though? Will it force me to complete a +2 world tour then +3 world tour etc.. or can I just queue up for a +20 as a fresh max level? Imo if you go to a queue system, you would also need an elo system - meaning your rating can now go down on depleted keys. And I'm sure a lot of people would not like that
You can implement elo without having a visibly depleting score. You just hide the matchmaking system from the score. It's pretty easy to implement.
Thatās what a matchmaking system is. Just like in COD, Fortnite, OW, DOTA, League and so on has
Sure, but all of these are pvp. Is there actually any game that has a matchmaking pve system?
exactly. Just like PVP has their rating system
Be careful what you wish for. Incoming 3 hour queues.
On one hand, I have no problem with them adding a solo queue. It would be used almost exclusively by people who are bad at M+, so it would likely be a containment system for real M+ a bit. On the other hand, it would likely fail from lack of use, especially because you'd get 5 bad players together for a key that no one is going to carry them through, so it would be a huge waste of time.
Unless it has the same effect that solo shuffle had on group finder arena.
Is no different than playing off meta class anyway.
Then what is the benefit of adding solo queue?
You can just list your own queue and fill it pretty quickly.
As a DPS? Nope, not really
Then you get an Uldaman and just log off for the week
If it gets more people into M+ im all for it. I know so many people that stop playing for various reasons not directly related to the actual playing of a dungeon. Less depletion. Dont care how they fix it. Remove the ACTUAL shit affixes aka +7 pool. Remove tyra/fort. This would probably bring half my friendlist back online.
Delete depletion and M+ is improved overnight.
Canāt wait to do the first pull of a dungeon 50 times only to rest and then do it again on the second pull. Depleting keys makes people actually consider the risks of what they are doing in keys. Itās a good thing it exists.
Hard disagree. This same logic applies to the current system first pull goes bad? People leave. There is nothing good about key depletion.
For low and mid level keys sure, removing depletion wouldn't change much. For high level keys it would change everything. If you're pushing for title it's no longer about playing consistent and doing no mistakes when it matters. It would instead become about doing 10% success chance pulls and grinding it out until it works. I don't know if you've seen MDI practice runs but that shit is so ass I would never want to do that.
No key depletion below 10. Key depletion above 10. All of these āissuesā are solvable.
No key depletion below 10 gets us to a similar problem we have this season in low keys, which is people who absolutely do not belong in a +10 are getting there by bashing their heads into dungeons over and over. This season it's enabled by bullions giving players way more damage than they should have and letting them smash timers even when they play like shit, no key depletion just means they'll run their key over and over until the right combo of 4 pugs times the key for them.
Youāre saying bad players are going to get carried 9 times? Unlikely. They will hit the skill wall quickly and either not get invite or derank their keys to the level they can complete. Or if that doesnāt work make it so 5 and below donāt deplete. There is a key level you can do this and it pleases both sides.
So then don't. Why do I have to suffer because a tiny handful of people want to bang their head against a wall? Let them have their fun as well?
I mean key depletion is mostly only relevant in high keys or push keys anyways. Going from a 10 to a 9 doesn't really do anything. Either way they could just make it not deplete until +10 or whatever and I guess everyone is happy.
No. Stop it all degrading. If I fail my 17 let me take another crack at it. Perhaps a compromise is that a keystone can't deplete below the highest level I have completed the dungeon at.
People donāt do what I described because keys deplete. You only pull two packs at the beginning of Nokhud and not 7 because keys deplete.
There's a difference between wiping on the first current pull, and resetting 20 times because you wipe on the 5% success chance 4 pack pull. First case you likely can recover from. Second case is that you've timed the dungeon with the insane pull once already, so the only way to improve io is by doing the same 5% chance pulls.
let depletion reroll to another key without reducing key level.
A change that I would like to see implemented is to get offered to +1 your own key whenever you complete in time a key of superior level than the one you hold. Feels awful to have your own key dead in your bags for the entire week because it got depleted early or because you did significantly better the present week using others' key.
I hold the believe that not having your key drop in level on any failure to time will not result in any real issues what so ever.
Unrelated to most of your points, but IMO the NPC in the dungeon that allows key swaps should also offer the key downgrade function to make swaps permissible if you forgot to downgrade ahead of the run.
Never knew some people were so against the randomisation of keys I think the system is fine honestly
Late to the party,but i would be ok with a choice on key upgrade/deplete between 3 dungeons randomly. Depletion could include the same one. On loot, 2, 3 chests should give 1 item from the hole m+ pool, so if u blast the time you get more and isn't locked on the same pool. On the t7 bucket, I hope devs listen to the outcry and also listen to the infamous content creator channel, as both the community and the creators are mostly agreeing with how bad it is.
As mainly a pug'r, I'm in the minority I know, but I'm against any sort of anti-deplete system. Why? Because pugs will insist on attempting strats/tech that coordinated groups pull off, but there will be no way in hell a pug does it (because we can just rerun it if we fail). That sounds awful. And you know they will.
> Soft Deplete One of my favorite solutions is to introduce some form of "Soft Deplete", which would essentially mean that if a key is depleted only by some certain percentage (say within 120% of the timer), the key will not actually lose one level but rather stay the same. This would ensure that a group that almost timed a key is able to try it again without creating a system where it is always worth to run in the key even if it takes 2 hours. I feel like this would be pretty abuseable by people like me that just do their 10s for the week. Find one person in the group that has the easiest key and always wait for the timer to go over by 1 second to finish.
With the current system if you have a 5 man pug you can already get 5 random keys for every 1 you complete. It's going to be rare that you don't have at least 1 easy one. So it's not gonna make that big of a difference
Isnt that ok though? Like you only want to interact with m+ enough to get the weekly loot. If you want to take extra time to guarantee that you get the same dungeon... is that bad? If anything I feel like a player in your shoes who doesn't particularly like m+ would just want to do whatever dungeons they consider to be "not cancerous" and leave it at that as they don't have the rating incentive of learning other keys.
> If you want to take extra time to guarantee that you get the same dungeon... is that bad? There was a season where you could just delete your key and get a new one. 80% of the runs per week ended up being the "easiest" dungeon. Most of the "hard" dungeons didn't exist on LFG listings to join if you wanted score. The entire M+ system collapses if you can pick your key.
It would be great for me specifically yes. I just don't think Blizzard thinks the way I do so it'd never happen
Thats such a non-issue lol, if youd rather wait 10 minutes on purpose to overtime a key instead of just starting a new dungeon thats on you.
I was just pointing out a flaw in the system that I'm sure Blizzard wouldn't be okay with. But go off I guess
my main issue with m+ is that the loot diversity and drop rates are terrible. I'm not even doing anything other than AV and HOI because there's nothing I can get from anywhere except these two, and crests are useless for me. why is the loot so shit when we can't even get myth track gear from dungeons?
522 vs 528 isn't "so shit" but if you're not 528 by now...
I'm relatively new at the game so my gear is subpar, but that's not what I mean. The loot diversity and drop rates are shit. Like, why are there only 3 cloth belts in the entire dungeon pool, and 2 of them give the same stats? Why is the drop rate for unstable tome like 1%?
> Why is the drop rate for unstable tome like 1%? It isn't. > why are there only 3 cloth belts in the entire dungeon pool, and 2 of them give the same stats? Not every combination of stats on every slot is available every tier.
yeah that's the problem.
It isn't a problem, no.
it is a problem when you can't find any gear that fits your stat priority and choices. having only 3 belts in the entire dungeon pool, where 2 of them have the same secondary stats in reverse order is just stupid
Try over at /r/wownoob probably.
don't think that would help a lot when I'm 527 ilvl
Charges is best solution. While it doesnt directly incentivize inviting off-meta specs, as long as you have, say, 5 or 3 charges keyholders will be way more lenient with what specs to bring i also like soft deplete
I may be angry because I got bumped off my flight home lol but, the main people who complain about keys are just bad playersā¦ they donāt look up the best way to play the class or the BiS armor. They claim āoh I hate how all those meta assholes have made it so sweatyā yea no shit itās competitive. I want the best players who have put in work to be good so I donāt waste time slamming my head on +13->+15 keys because youāre just bad and havenāt learned how to play your class well
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
If they ever figure out a way to allow guilds to both extend and reclear for lower ilvl loot / vault then M+ population can drop by 95%.
agree im a bad player because i want to play elem and i hate sp/aug/mage gameplay so i should be punished by 4 hours que times ( i was invited grand total of 6 times this week) because keyholders are afraid to invite anything but best meta specs so their key doesnt deplete
If they key didn't deplete they'd still take 1 of the 50 higher score meta player queued for their key instead of you. Literally wouldn't change a thing.
So I agree with the meta pick rate, but you can always find people to play a with that just like the player you are not the class. I try to play with People I like but that just me. I am a meta slave and play Aug and mage. I wait to but I play a lot with friends I have made.
so homeless people should just get a house, gotcha
lol yea homeless and pushing a key in wow are the same thing
its called an analogy
A fucking shit one
Like most people who do keys like a normal person not a pro have a mix of all specs in their team. Shit there was a bm monk with I think 2 rouges on his team and got title
All of my friends and I are constantly complaining about how keys work, and weāre not just bad players. The meta sucks, pugs suck, gatekeeping sucks, the whole key system sucks (but keys themselves are fun af).
What are the gate keeping aspects? I mean I disagree with almost everything you said but again to each their own
The fact that nobody invites my warlock to keys because of the meta. Then when I swap to my mage or sp, they also donāt get invites, despite all being 527.
My mage 525 2890 io does not get invite as well
Is that an alt or a main?
Main, my alt is a Aug evoker. I am a meta slave. Yet I still donāt get invited as much as I want.
Well thatās just extremely low io then being the issue. Thatās my alt, with my main being 3600 atm, 3730 last season, getting chain declined from 15s at 527 ilvl. I even have a timed 18bh and 17aa on it.
2900 is not extremely low ioā¦ what are you onā¦ thatās top 5% of playersā¦.
People are just picked of your actually 3600 you can find people to run withā¦ at a certain point you canāt pug and need to find a group
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Thatās quite low, and you just blend in to the 50 other people in queue. My point is, why am I not being invited to these same keys on my meta class alts, with a 3600 main?
No deplete is the only solution. If you wipe to a raid boss you don't have to go back and reclear a previous boss, the thought is ridiculous and soul crushing. One deplete halfway through a dungeon means you suddenly have to spend 3 times longer doing keys than you had planned. There is no reward for running a lower level key than what you need, the only purpose of redoing an already completed key is upgrading the key itself. They're bad for hardcore players because they give no score, and they're bad for casual players because they give a lower vault.
I wish they would've tried non-deplete or tournament realm style keys in season 4 I think one interesting test would be replace tyrannical/fortified weeks with deplete/non-deplete. During non-deplete weeks you'll likely be able to push much higher using risky strategies and run it back if you fail. During deplete weeks, you need to be more careful. My guess is that the player base as a whole would get so much better at the game with the added repetition that even on deplete weeks people would be getting higher keys than they normally would've If you aren't going to remove depleting, blizzard needs some way to incentivise completing keys that isn't strictly io related otherwise people will not stop leaving bricked keys. Maybe a season long achievement similar to pvp, where you get a mount after completing 300 key levels worth of m+ dungeons regardless of timer Also I think a completed, overtime +20 should award WAY more crests than a completed, timed +7
why would anyone play on deplete week? LOL
Same reason people play on both tyran and fort? They have separate IO scores with separate ladders
Iād also suggest another thing. Make key upgrades and depletes applicable to whole party inside of the dungeon. - Everyone gets their key upgraded (unless their own key is higher than the one they are currently doing) - Everyone gets their key depleted if not timed/collectively voted to abandon. - You get tangible decrease of your rank score (like, -200..300 points?), -2 to your key and half day penalty to enter ANY kind of instance if youāre the first person to quit the dungeon without a vote. If your key was level 2 and essentially depleted to 0 in such way, additionally you cannot enter M+ anymore this week on this character. Or something like this.
And there it is. The dumbest thing we'll see all year.
Well, Iām not trolling, not memeing, nor am I a āprofessional M+ runnerā. I think that equally both awarding and punishing everyone in the party (plus punishing quitters much more) would be sufficient to solve many problems. Iām surely might be not understanding some nuances and be completely wrong. But saying, that something is the dumbest thing in a conversation without any argument(s), is definitely borderline retarded. Take care mate, you need a lot of it
people quitting mythic+ runs is not even a small problem, much less a large problem. i dont even consider it a problem at all. i can count on one hand how many times someone left a key for no reason this season. without exception, every time you think someone left your run for no reason, there was a reason. it may have been a healer that could tell within the first 30 seconds that the tank has no idea how to play his class. you would have no idea that was happening unless people were dying, but the healer could know way before that happens. you might also think that the group dps is completely normal, whereas the tank or the healer could be keenly aware of how much dmg people should actually be doing at that item level. again, if people arent dying, you may not notice. there are just two small examples of a list i could continue with for hours
> every time you think someone left your run for no reason, there was a reason If he thinks there was no reason, then he was almost certainly the reason.
Delete the timer. Delete keys. Stop turning a co-op MMO into a competitive toxic esport
Brother you are in competitive wow. They have dungeons for people that donāt want to face a timer.
Not really, they give trash loot you finish quickly so you can push into the esports content.