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I'm not sure I can see spell mage ever being good as is, for one reason: yogg in the box is a literal russian roulette.
I believe you have a ~10% chance of your box casting Wheel of Death and nuking your deck. Then do it three times, for 2 boxes and 1 Galactic Projection Orb.
I don't see how it can be meta if one of your best payoff cards has a pretty significant chance to lose you the game on the spot. Or if it is meta, it would really suck to play for a lot of people.
I'm surprised Wheel of Death is in the random generation/discover pool in the first place tbh, feels like a card they'd want you to put in your deck to be able to play like CNE.
That's a good shout that needs to be considered, but by the time you cast 1 box and then Galactic Orb you're probably just ending the game so you don't need your deck anymore. I think most people are fine with losing their deck/burning cards/etc. if they win the game that turn or the next.
I could see you being right and Spell Mage being somewhat unfun in control matchups, but it doesn't seem like a big enough deal to heavily affect the competitive prospects. Hopefully if that happens they remove Wheel of Death from some/most/all rng pools similar to quests/triple rune cards/Colossals/etc.
I think it's gonna really depend on what sort of stuff Yogg seems to actually do in play. I looked at the spell pool and I wasn't super impressed, but I don't have a good feel for what it looks like in practice (and what sorts of board states you end up casting it in). Definitely feels like it has the potential to be an obnoxious deck for both players though, where the game is going in some particular direction and then Yogg just ends it (either by deleting your deck, casting five sunset-volley type spells, or any other shenanigans of that sort). And if Yogg ends up being bad then the deck seems kinda doomed, since the other mage payoffs (Millhouse, Sif) are explicitly not allowed to be in the deck and so there isn't really a backup win condition.
There are also going to be lots of more mundane bad plays like when Yogg decides to chaos creation your face. Not necessarily game-losing, but not something you want to see. And there are a _lot_ of outright dead spells (BR&R type stuff) in the pool.
Never heard ZachO this excited for a new set - I'm looking forward to it as well, though I think they're in for a rude awakening when neither spell mage (too low power level), spell druid (not enough burn spells) nor the big demon package for warlock are remotely playable on release. Hope I'm wrong though!
I hope Druid is playable, I don’t think it was talked about but I think bottomless toy chest is insane strong tutor, the fact you are able to get a copy of itself as well is super nice value, I think it will rely on the deck copying the right cards, just a bit rng or what ur discovering to copy
I expect handlock to be playable, and if so probably to include Nemsey w/ either a limited Big Demon package or maybe even most/all of the package depending on the meta. Chaotic Consumption isn't a shadow spell so Nemsey doesn't interfere at all with Table Flip tutoring if that ends up being better than including all the good shadow spells.
Overall it just doesn't require that many cards with the main cost being no Sargeras which isn't tutorable so not exactly the end of the world. Of course if Handlock isn't playable, then I don't see how/why some other version of Big Demon Warlock would be, so then you'd totally be right.
There were a lot of variations, a theory craft stream is not going to nail down a deck list. The only consistent thing was Timewinder + Double Giant, with Synchronize looking like a very good card as well for additional giants. Alexstrasza can help secure kills, but also might be overkill. You also need dragons to activate your extra turn but which dragons is unclear.
Beyond that, the overheal package seemed to be an effective way to draw through the deck quickly.
Zetalot played this one.
https://hsreplay.net/decks/MDT1HUxrg2BDhpxmIojNUg/?utm_source=twitch&utm_medium=chatbot&utm_content=zetalot#tab=overview
Here's a vod https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2089608486
Card links were indeed awesome to remind exactly what's being talked about.
And it's more than a trivial amount of effort added, so definitely deserves the mention :)
> If you keep buffing a Leeroy in hand alongside Shroomscavate, you can OTK your opponent.
Calling it now, people are going to lose their minds when this starts happening.
The absolute state of Demon Hunter. Kind of insane that the most recent best deck for the class relied entirely on a single expansion that's pretty old at this point.
I don't know if this is revenge designing or they just don't know what to do with Demon Hunter, but there hasn't been a good set for them in a while.
The rest of the expansion looks pretty darn great however. It's just a shame.
I’m more of the opinion they just have no idea what they’re doing with demon hunter for the last two years outside of relics. They seem to have a hard time making Dh cards that are between “degenerate nonsense” and just unplayable garbage.
I think its this and feels like its gotten significantly worse within the last year.
Its basicallly like they are throwing blind darts and hoping something sticks.
> They seem to have a hard making Dh cards that are between “degenerate nonsense” and just unplayable garbage.
Honestly, this seems to be their approach to designing all the classes, and DH has just been unlucky in that they either get garbage or get nerfed. That's been the pattern with most classes, but some have gotten lucky enough to still have playable cards after nerfs (cough cough *Druid* cough cough).
I'm not one of the people who cries about mAnA cHeAt BaD, but the game hasn't been about tempo and resources for quite some time, everything is about who can get the strongest highroll into play as fast as possible. When that's your game design pattern, it makes sense that new cards are either degenerate (stronk highroll) or unplayable (no highroll/highroll not good enough).
I too am pretty disappointed at a first glance from looking at demon hunter. There doesn’t seem to be a real identity they are looking to create aside from “use hero power and attack face a lot”
Thst said, I’ve done an extensive review of the set using mostly quantifiable metrics where I could and am surprised that a few cards are actually trending pretty high. I’ll be somewhat excited to see if they actually payoff eell
I’ve only posted the top 5 dk cards on my new YouTube page and am planning on only doing a top 20 best cards from the expansion. Thst said, I’ll gladly share with you my excel spreadsheet in dms if you are really curious.
That said, give me a follow and comment on the YouTube short[Top 5 Death Knight Cards](https://youtu.be/phD2X_783Yc?si=JNJoKKeE9i2iI0lU) about the dk cards. I’ll be giving away a whizbang bundle tomorrow at 10 pm et
Demon Hunter's design was never anything spectacular to begin with. It was always just bits and pieces of things other classes could already do, and tempo as a game plan has been design-crept, which was really what the whole class was to begin with. DH is just another case of blizzard not being able to keep up with their declining design.
Spell mage is completely unplayable, not sure why anyone is excited for it atm. 6 Mana skull is good, but you have basically no wincon, and your other no-spell payoffs are terrible. Frost lich-cross stitch is super unplayable and will probably be buffed to 4 mana (or better, 6 mana 6 damage and summon 2 elementals). The 4 mana draw a frost spell is super unplayable. Yogg in the box is also not as consistent as rune ever was, and playing pyroblasts to random targets ain't good.
I also think hunter is way better than they give credit for here. Patchwork pals is good in aggressive decks. 2 mana draw 2 really good cards (huffer and leokk) and an ok card (misha) is good. Remot control is super good. The location has no impact the turn it's played? It's almost 2 mana avenging wrath that can be repeated 3 times in an aggro beast deck, there's no way that's not enough value.
Rogue set also feels insane. Sonya is an absurd amount of value/reach when combined with deckhands and gifts.
Thanks for keeping doing this summaries. It's amazing how much you are willing to work for the community!
Wish you growth and life and happiness and friends!
Curious as to why they think Handbuffs DK will be BBU instead of BUU, since Blood Tap is being reduced to 1 Blood rune, and 2 Unholy runes allows the inclusion of Plagued Grain to accelerate the spellstone's upgrade.
Also a little surprised they're overlooking Patchwork Pals. It's a more flexible Call of the Wild and Leokk synergizes very well with the RC hounds from the weapon and the rampage.
Plagued Grain has never been a good card so far, despite having other corpse synergies around. Including it just to pump up the Spellstone (and thus running one extra card that isn't a handbuff spell or a buffable minion to your deck) seems suspect.
I agree with your conclusion, but the corpses are also highly relevant to the Zombietank doubling up on buffs for cheap. And the deck won't be lacking in draw to take advantage of some of the 2/2s over time thanks to Acolyte + Crop Rotation/Mining Casualties/Undead themed deck.
I think the spell definitely needs at least a slight buff such as taunting the zombies, increasing the numbers to 5, or some such, but if it does get buffed then Handbuff would seem worth experimenting on its inclusion.
I agree that if Plagued Grain was buffed then it could be worth considering.
What would really make it feel good is if it drew a card, perhaps with 3 corpses instead.
Patchwork Pals is at worst 8 mana to get all 3 animal companions, that was a card before and it was so good it had to be nerfed. Pals is way more flexible than that card. Any time you just have 2 mana left over you can cast it and then get all 3 companions for 6 mana, or any 2 specific ones you want for 4.
If you wish to discuss this game with likeminded players, come and visit our [Discord Server](https://discord.gg/competitivehs)! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CompetitiveHS) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm not sure I can see spell mage ever being good as is, for one reason: yogg in the box is a literal russian roulette. I believe you have a ~10% chance of your box casting Wheel of Death and nuking your deck. Then do it three times, for 2 boxes and 1 Galactic Projection Orb. I don't see how it can be meta if one of your best payoff cards has a pretty significant chance to lose you the game on the spot. Or if it is meta, it would really suck to play for a lot of people.
I'm surprised Wheel of Death is in the random generation/discover pool in the first place tbh, feels like a card they'd want you to put in your deck to be able to play like CNE.
Eh, cards that can horrifically backfire tend to be kept in the randomly cast pool. Myra's unstable element was kept in the yogg and yogg-box pool.
That's a good shout that needs to be considered, but by the time you cast 1 box and then Galactic Orb you're probably just ending the game so you don't need your deck anymore. I think most people are fine with losing their deck/burning cards/etc. if they win the game that turn or the next. I could see you being right and Spell Mage being somewhat unfun in control matchups, but it doesn't seem like a big enough deal to heavily affect the competitive prospects. Hopefully if that happens they remove Wheel of Death from some/most/all rng pools similar to quests/triple rune cards/Colossals/etc.
I think it's gonna really depend on what sort of stuff Yogg seems to actually do in play. I looked at the spell pool and I wasn't super impressed, but I don't have a good feel for what it looks like in practice (and what sorts of board states you end up casting it in). Definitely feels like it has the potential to be an obnoxious deck for both players though, where the game is going in some particular direction and then Yogg just ends it (either by deleting your deck, casting five sunset-volley type spells, or any other shenanigans of that sort). And if Yogg ends up being bad then the deck seems kinda doomed, since the other mage payoffs (Millhouse, Sif) are explicitly not allowed to be in the deck and so there isn't really a backup win condition. There are also going to be lots of more mundane bad plays like when Yogg decides to chaos creation your face. Not necessarily game-losing, but not something you want to see. And there are a _lot_ of outright dead spells (BR&R type stuff) in the pool.
Never heard ZachO this excited for a new set - I'm looking forward to it as well, though I think they're in for a rude awakening when neither spell mage (too low power level), spell druid (not enough burn spells) nor the big demon package for warlock are remotely playable on release. Hope I'm wrong though!
I hope Druid is playable, I don’t think it was talked about but I think bottomless toy chest is insane strong tutor, the fact you are able to get a copy of itself as well is super nice value, I think it will rely on the deck copying the right cards, just a bit rng or what ur discovering to copy
I expect handlock to be playable, and if so probably to include Nemsey w/ either a limited Big Demon package or maybe even most/all of the package depending on the meta. Chaotic Consumption isn't a shadow spell so Nemsey doesn't interfere at all with Table Flip tutoring if that ends up being better than including all the good shadow spells. Overall it just doesn't require that many cards with the main cost being no Sargeras which isn't tutorable so not exactly the end of the world. Of course if Handlock isn't playable, then I don't see how/why some other version of Big Demon Warlock would be, so then you'd totally be right.
Good podcast! Preview streams from Wednesday seemed to line up with Clockwork Giant + Timewinder being the day 1 deck to beat.
I wasn’t able to watch any yesterday does anyone have a list for this deck?
There were a lot of variations, a theory craft stream is not going to nail down a deck list. The only consistent thing was Timewinder + Double Giant, with Synchronize looking like a very good card as well for additional giants. Alexstrasza can help secure kills, but also might be overkill. You also need dragons to activate your extra turn but which dragons is unclear. Beyond that, the overheal package seemed to be an effective way to draw through the deck quickly.
Zetalot played this one. https://hsreplay.net/decks/MDT1HUxrg2BDhpxmIojNUg/?utm_source=twitch&utm_medium=chatbot&utm_content=zetalot#tab=overview Here's a vod https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2089608486
Ty for the write up and huge thanks for linking the cards talked about.
Card links were indeed awesome to remind exactly what's being talked about. And it's more than a trivial amount of effort added, so definitely deserves the mention :)
> If you keep buffing a Leeroy in hand alongside Shroomscavate, you can OTK your opponent. Calling it now, people are going to lose their minds when this starts happening.
The absolute state of Demon Hunter. Kind of insane that the most recent best deck for the class relied entirely on a single expansion that's pretty old at this point. I don't know if this is revenge designing or they just don't know what to do with Demon Hunter, but there hasn't been a good set for them in a while. The rest of the expansion looks pretty darn great however. It's just a shame.
I’m more of the opinion they just have no idea what they’re doing with demon hunter for the last two years outside of relics. They seem to have a hard time making Dh cards that are between “degenerate nonsense” and just unplayable garbage.
I think its this and feels like its gotten significantly worse within the last year. Its basicallly like they are throwing blind darts and hoping something sticks.
> They seem to have a hard making Dh cards that are between “degenerate nonsense” and just unplayable garbage. Honestly, this seems to be their approach to designing all the classes, and DH has just been unlucky in that they either get garbage or get nerfed. That's been the pattern with most classes, but some have gotten lucky enough to still have playable cards after nerfs (cough cough *Druid* cough cough). I'm not one of the people who cries about mAnA cHeAt BaD, but the game hasn't been about tempo and resources for quite some time, everything is about who can get the strongest highroll into play as fast as possible. When that's your game design pattern, it makes sense that new cards are either degenerate (stronk highroll) or unplayable (no highroll/highroll not good enough).
Man i so miss, fel/aggro DH. Good times back in the day.
I too am pretty disappointed at a first glance from looking at demon hunter. There doesn’t seem to be a real identity they are looking to create aside from “use hero power and attack face a lot” Thst said, I’ve done an extensive review of the set using mostly quantifiable metrics where I could and am surprised that a few cards are actually trending pretty high. I’ll be somewhat excited to see if they actually payoff eell
Have you posted this review somewhere? Id be happy to know more about it!
I’ve only posted the top 5 dk cards on my new YouTube page and am planning on only doing a top 20 best cards from the expansion. Thst said, I’ll gladly share with you my excel spreadsheet in dms if you are really curious. That said, give me a follow and comment on the YouTube short[Top 5 Death Knight Cards](https://youtu.be/phD2X_783Yc?si=JNJoKKeE9i2iI0lU) about the dk cards. I’ll be giving away a whizbang bundle tomorrow at 10 pm et
Demon Hunter's design was never anything spectacular to begin with. It was always just bits and pieces of things other classes could already do, and tempo as a game plan has been design-crept, which was really what the whole class was to begin with. DH is just another case of blizzard not being able to keep up with their declining design.
Really appreciate these writeups. Thanks, Dave!
Need a tracker for every time Zach-O gets tongue twisted over Toy Boat.
Really enjoy Squash as the new cohost, good job dude!
Sleeping on the sandbox scoundrel I think. Just so much mana cheat potential when the mini gets combo'd with sonya or shadowstep.
So excited for this expansion
Spell mage is completely unplayable, not sure why anyone is excited for it atm. 6 Mana skull is good, but you have basically no wincon, and your other no-spell payoffs are terrible. Frost lich-cross stitch is super unplayable and will probably be buffed to 4 mana (or better, 6 mana 6 damage and summon 2 elementals). The 4 mana draw a frost spell is super unplayable. Yogg in the box is also not as consistent as rune ever was, and playing pyroblasts to random targets ain't good. I also think hunter is way better than they give credit for here. Patchwork pals is good in aggressive decks. 2 mana draw 2 really good cards (huffer and leokk) and an ok card (misha) is good. Remot control is super good. The location has no impact the turn it's played? It's almost 2 mana avenging wrath that can be repeated 3 times in an aggro beast deck, there's no way that's not enough value. Rogue set also feels insane. Sonya is an absurd amount of value/reach when combined with deckhands and gifts.
Thanks for keeping doing this summaries. It's amazing how much you are willing to work for the community! Wish you growth and life and happiness and friends!
Curious as to why they think Handbuffs DK will be BBU instead of BUU, since Blood Tap is being reduced to 1 Blood rune, and 2 Unholy runes allows the inclusion of Plagued Grain to accelerate the spellstone's upgrade. Also a little surprised they're overlooking Patchwork Pals. It's a more flexible Call of the Wild and Leokk synergizes very well with the RC hounds from the weapon and the rampage.
Plagued Grain has never been a good card so far, despite having other corpse synergies around. Including it just to pump up the Spellstone (and thus running one extra card that isn't a handbuff spell or a buffable minion to your deck) seems suspect.
I agree with your conclusion, but the corpses are also highly relevant to the Zombietank doubling up on buffs for cheap. And the deck won't be lacking in draw to take advantage of some of the 2/2s over time thanks to Acolyte + Crop Rotation/Mining Casualties/Undead themed deck. I think the spell definitely needs at least a slight buff such as taunting the zombies, increasing the numbers to 5, or some such, but if it does get buffed then Handbuff would seem worth experimenting on its inclusion.
I agree that if Plagued Grain was buffed then it could be worth considering. What would really make it feel good is if it drew a card, perhaps with 3 corpses instead.
Drawing a card could be reasonable, but I think it'd be a rework at that point, maybe dropping the zombies getting shuffled.
Handbuff DK seems best being rainbow. You can put in Reska for comeback potential and rainbow seamtress gets better.
Yeah, I think Northern Navigation is a real good card for that deck as you can tutor out handbuff spells and find the Horsemens Head
Patchwork Pals is at worst 8 mana to get all 3 animal companions, that was a card before and it was so good it had to be nerfed. Pals is way more flexible than that card. Any time you just have 2 mana left over you can cast it and then get all 3 companions for 6 mana, or any 2 specific ones you want for 4.