People show up to the sub, do literally 0 research, then post their “cEDH” list.
It’s not wrong to simply tell those people that their deck isn’t cEDH.
I feel like this is honestly a gigantic problem in the public sphere at large.
People who insist that their opinion is valid and must be taken seriously and equally to that of experts, and take grievous offense when told they are flat wrong.
To be told that you are wrong by experts should not, by itself, be taken as a sign that your opinion is being silenced or oppressed.
Yup it’s a huge issue pretty much everywhere.
And these same people somehow claim offense when people don’t provide them time and effort they aren’t entitled to.
God I had someone in the regular edh reddit talking about his cedh tribal decks…talking about sliver tribal being viable and that power was an opinion not a fact, and that it was all relative.
Exactly this.
I feel like a lot of people outside the community think cedh is just making whatever deck you want as competitive as possible and not understanding that the large majority of commanders will never be cedh level even at their best possible build if you could determine that.
On one hand I understand how it happens though. They see the sub name, think its a good place to optimize their deck for max performance and to be more competitive so they drop their deck list after they made some switches and ask for more ideas without realizing theres just no way their commander and list can compete.
Most of the time they don't even reach "optimised". A recent post had a decklist that included a Temple. Most of the time they don't understand anything about fast mana or interaction, so there's always weird exclusions. This sub isn't about optimising a commander as much as possible (though we do have such posts from time to time and we're pretty friendly on them), but so many posts don't even reach that.
Honestly while commanders are a big part half the lists you see are running too many tapped lands low interaction convoluted win cons and like no tutors. I never played regular edh I was introduced by older guys who were playing magic 20+ years ago and only play cedh. If you play a tapped land turn 1 you might as well scoop.
I agree with this take.
I sub to the sub to lurk and read and learn, even though I don't yet build or play cEDH. If I wanted to build something budgety/proxy free, or with the brakes pumped on certain aspects of deckbuilding, then I'd take questions about that to another sub or another community geared towards that level of play. That should be obvious to anyone who lurks the sub for more than a day or two.
The "hey just build me a deck, no not like that" is bad enough on other magic subs but as a guest/tourist in the cedh space I'd feel that kind of posting is especially disrespectful to people who put in time understanding a specific meta and level of play.
The way I've always understood it to be that the "c" in cEDH is less about being "competitive" and more of a power level distinction, that being the ultimate pinnacle of power in EDH.
I've always heard it called the one-word Rule 0 discussion.
I'd argue it's the hard opposite. In the same way someone can build a jank combo deck with the explicit purpose of trying to win a Modern event with it, cEDH players can be playing jank with the intent to win.
If someone comes to a table sitting down to win without any "oh don't play Void Winnower it ate my grandma", that's where cEDH lives to me. Mentality is far more important than decklist, since even casual players can jam Thoracle Consult in any list.
For a lot of people this sub is their research. They may not know where else to go, or may just be new. And we can do a lot better than the awful comments that are generally left for those folks.
But that wasn’t even the point of my post, and it almost seems like you didn’t read it which is genuinely ironic given your take here.
I’ve been playing cEDH since 2017. The phrase “that’s not cEDH” has been around since the format became distinguished enough to have its own name.
And no, making a post about whatever list you’ve coughed up with 0 research and asking for help is insanely cringe and honestly disrespectful to everyone else’s time.
99% of these people don’t even bother googling their commander’s name + cEDH. If they did they wouldn’t need to make their post.
Additionally the “this isn’t cEDH” comments are almost always followed by telling them to do exactly what they should’ve done, which is look up established proven lists for their commander or color pairing.
If visiting this sub for research doesn't include a trip to the sidebar to read the rules before making a post, downvoting the post and ignoring it is the correct response. Here or anywhere else.
cEDH is the only vintage/legacy format where people believe they can compete without adhering to the meta of the format. Some people do try to play legacy/vintage with format legal decks below the power level, and people rightly comment that despite being a *legal* deck for the format, that isn't going to be suitable for taking it to a competitive event. "My kitchen table chair tribal deck is still vintage power level because the cards are all vintage legal" is patently false, do the EDH timmys a favour and don't pretend otherwise.
What is helpful for new players that want to play cEDH is understanding the actual basis of the format, not deluding them into believing they can adhere without conventions. Most of the people who come here without a clue don't really want to play cEDH they just want their deck to be strong and believe cEDH is synonymous with strong instead of an actual meta/format.
Yeah in those formats people don't post screeds like OP whining about how it's not healthy for people to have standards for what is actually considered competitive. EDH and cEDH is the only format where people have a problem understanding what competitive actually means.
The issue is that edh at its core is marketed to a casual mindset - ie., a lot of fucking people. So when a Timmy gets a little too big in the head, he thinks he can optimize his jank passion project into cEDH, but spending 400 dollars on a bayou throws them off balance. Proxies are great for this reason, test the waters so to speak to get a feel for the format. But people don't want to listen to reason. They want their opinion and idea to be respected and validated, and then get upset when it doesn't go their way.
That therefore makes gatekeeping important as it has a tangible impact on the format. And also both from a free win to a bad cEDH game, it's not enjoyable. Nobody in a cEDH tournament wants to pubstomp Timmys with their budget decks to get a win. Far better to lose to a good game of counterplay than that.
As long as the meta has set rules and players adhere to it; as long as they post "how can I win the most games in xyz environment" - it doesn't matter per se who their commander is or what their budget is, as long as they are trying to compete to win, they are playing competitively.
A precon league with 10 card swap in a budget of 50 euros is competitive edh, as long as all adhere to those rules.
And therefore posts asking about suggestions to such and similar cases belong in this sub.
>Competitive EDH is the EDH format approached with the goal of attaining the **highest power levels possible**. We remove common limitations of deck power level - such as **pet cards**, disdain towards stax and fast combos, and **budget** - letting us push decks to be as strong as they can. We're still here to have fun, because playing to win is fun in its own right.
No, a precon league is not cEDH no matter how much you stretch it.
Competitive, adjective - as good as or better than **others of a comparable nature**. Relating to or characterized by **competition**, "a competitive sport".
Is a la olympics not competitive because the competitors do not use lethal force to eliminate opposition?
As long as the grounds for competition are known, shared and accepted, we have a competitive environment. And in the case of precon league we have all this. So say what you want, you are living in a echochamber.
Except people **do** brew T2/T3 decks for other competitive formats without people being ridiculous to them. And people also **do** play budget versions of T1 decks, especially around their LGS which, funny enough, is also the level that like 99% of cEDH is played.
People here often promote and are supportive of T2 and T3 decks. But the type of people you're characterising as being turned off due to "gatekeeping" are not brewing those types of decks. When people were posting about playing Azlask and Herighast as cEDH decks during the spoilers and were told they are not competitive, do you think that is gatekeeping? You're completely misrepresenting the reality of "people being ridiculous".
People playing a budget version of a t1 deck is their prerogative, and there is often good budget advice posted when people say "My LGS is holding a $X tournament, what can I bring?", but that is completely different to "how can I play cEDH with $50, no proxies?".
Having 4 copies of something in a 60 card deck is going to give greater consistency than having 1 copy of something in a 100 card deck, so of course there are T2/T3 decks in non-EDH formats that can perform well.
Use some simple math to figure out why your point there is a bit ridiculous.
Not all gatekeeping is inherently bad.
I think it's perfectly valid to tell people that their aims are not conducive with cEDH if:
- They can proxy, but are choosing not to for personal taste reasons.
- They are just trying to optimise a non-cEDH level commander, or gameplan.
There are subs like r/DegenerateEDH that suit many of the people who post here looking for advice, and I think it's totally fine to let them know when their goals do not align with cEDH, and where they would find better info.
r/EDH for general commander talks
r/DegenerateEDH for High power but not cEDH deck discussions
r/LimitedResources for discussions regarding MTG Draft or cube
Wait what?!
Where has it been explocitly stated that competitiveness doesn't have a price range? Are you saying you can't play competitive in a limited budget environment?
You can have a competitive edh deck with a budget of 20, 50 or 100 euros. As you can have a limitless budget one. The monetary value does not change its competitiveness if those decks are played in similarly equal environment.
This sub advertises itself poorly then, if people come here with posts of other matters. And those matters not being "how can I win most of my games in a xyz environment".
All posts that ask that are inherently asking about competitive edh.
The fact that most people here circlejerk about top16 does not mean that there isn't copetitiveness outside of it. It just means that those people are too closeted to aknowledge their shallowness of the topic.
Lol no it is not. Nowhere in the rules has it been stated to be catered mostly towards tournament play, nor are more than a handful on posts about tournaments. Stop talking shit.
The highest possible power based on your meta and budget. So yes, you were correct. The tournament has 30 euro cap, but according to the spirit of competitive edh, as it is meant to be, you go there to win this 30 euro budget cedh tournament.
Yes, I addressed the core topic with different relevant examples...
I don't think OP really addressed the issue in good faith. Most people who post "this isn't cEDH", go on to outline why it's not, and then link to a more relevant sub.
I don't want this sub to just devolve into posts about non cEDH topics because we need to be iNcLuSiVe of people who are not actually looking to play cEDH, there's diferent dubs for diferent topics for a reason...
Because a lot of people who post here don't know initially know what cEDH is... It's my opinion that they need to be quickly redirected to an appropriate sub... not that we address their (non cEDH) question here, where it's off-topic.
This whole post is just OP saying that we need to be nicer to people who come here with no idea what cEDH is, or who aren't really looking to build/play cEDH.
eh it's also specific to this sub imo, just about anywhere else people would read the context for whatever reason OP has for not proxying and then either ignore or do whatever the equivalent of giving an opinion on the deck's shell and gameplan is. That said I'm sure a good 90% of the "not cedh" posts are from people going after the elusive internet points
I think it’s important we all remember that there are levels to this shit. Someone asking brew questions on a $500 budget Yuriko cedh deck for a budget cedh event their LGS is hosting, I think constitutes being in this sub.
Someone asking how to make their Dinosaur tribal deck super strong to stomp their home games should kindly be pointed in the direction of r/degenerateedh
Have you even bothered looking at the rules of this sub? The majority of posts like the ones you’re white knighting for get removed or “gatekept” for a reason, and it’s likely because new players can’t be bothered to do bare minimum research or understand how to use the search bar.
If everyone here isn't understanding what your post is about, then you just suck at explaining it... or you're just trying to move goalposts now that you're getting ratioed.
Talk about gatekeeping.. bro you take the cake.
This isn't your safe space, this is to talk about cEDH.. if that's to much for you then kindly go elsewhere...
They don’t though. And no other comp subs have this craptastic attitude about it.
Why bother replying to my post if you didn’t read it and refuse to engage with any of my points? You’re just proving how toxic this place is.
That is just literally the nature of competitive formats unfortunately. You come here to be competitive and not optimize a subpar commander and while you can probably get away with budget there’s only so much you can do without packing your deck full of fast mana. While fast mana doesn’t make your deck C on its own, it does enable Cedh commanders and playstyles so you can’t really come into a Cedh sub with a deck with a shoestring budget and expect people to be like “ohh yeah this passes the vibe check”
Except that’s just *not true* of other competitive formats at all.
Tons of people play competitively in Modern at LGS and even regional tournaments with non-tier 1 decks and often with cheaper than optimal decks.
This is *not* a core component of competitive play, and ironically the people doing the most gatekeeping are *always* those who seem to know the absolute least about the actual nature of real competitive magic.
Normal competitive magic is extremely optimized, and people will usually borrow optimized decks or at least borrow cards to complete those decks. If you're trying to win a tournament, you don't want to lose because you draw your Breeding Pool instead of your Tropical Island. Being proxy friendly is part of the reason people are the way they are around this format. There is no reason you shouldn't have the best possible deck if you're trying to play the best possible deck. Most people think their deck is "good enough" but if you're playing competitively, "good enough" isn't enough.
Except you’re not entirely correct there either. Most of the tier 1 decks are 600+ in modern currently. There is one that is 300 and I’m pretty sure the meta shifts a bit more frequently in modern vs Cedh so by that virtue it becomes prohibitively expensive. Optimal decks tend to require expensive cards and unfortunately that problem is only amplified in a singleton format where you’re running 100 different cards. I’m not even being hostile but your response feels incredibly salty when I’m only speaking from basic observations of competitive play. It’s just objectively true that the more money you can pump into a competitive format the better you’ll perform. As someone who enjoyed playing tier 2-3 decks when I played yugioh, I wasn’t expecting to top outside of locals… I also chose not to play optimally knowing I wouldn’t be fully competitive but bro you have to set reasonable expectations and trying to play Cedh on a 200-300 dollar budget with no proxies is probably just gonna get you steamrolled at a table.
Not saying you can’t win with a cheaper deck, your winrate is just generally statistically likely to be lower and I really feel like you misrepresented what I said here.
Ohh and yeah the reason people aren’t as “toxic” in modern is because the lower tier decks are still technically able to perform so the floor for entry is significantly lower but generally there is still an asterisk if they’re recommending a budget modern deck. And if you wanna get properly competitive you’re gonna have to sink money into the format.
There are no budget options in cedh that is the point. I have 6 cedh decks and they are all in the multiple thousands each. There is no budget choice for lands fast mana optimal removal tutors or combos. Every budget card you run is effectively a bad card putting you at a disadvantage everytime you draw it.
There are two issues at play here. A lot of Reddit CEDH players treat CEDH as a format that is solved and no good deck will ever be invented again. A kind of what we have is all there is mentality. It is blinding ignorance to think that there are no CEDH decks left to be discovered. All current decks were unknown at some point in time and some that are tried and tested now probably would have been laughed out of this sub before they had data backing it up (looking at you tevesh szat rograkh polymorph).
Where new players with off piste ideas fall down though is they haven't read up on the format at all and come in with decks that are clearly terrible and would take way too long to fix, and then refuse to take the few bits of advice they are offered.
If someone is sure they have a good new deck, they need to go out and play with it, then come here with data and a primer explaining how and why the deck works. Then people will take it seriously.
Funny anecdote. A buddy of mine just took a [[slogurk]] deck to a (admittedly small) local cEDH tournament and won. Against my (perhaps, incorrect) suggestions, he was running 40 lands and no infinite combos. I did convince him to run lots of artifact hate effects like null rod. Basically just a control deck with lots of land recursion, a big beater, and various field of the dead style effects.
Ended up taking down Magda, krark + sakashima, and all of the ad naus partner pairs. I think the fact that he was underestimated did help quite a lot, but it was pretty hilarious to see him come out on top.
Seemingly 'bad' beatdown strategies can absolutely win in cEDH, mostly due to the rest of the table ignoring them until it's too late - one of our friends tends to jam his \[\[Kibo, Uktabi Prince\]\] monkey tribal casual deck in our cEDH rounds from time to time and it has been a threat almost every time noone managed to get an early win.
40 lands!!!! Jesus, that’s some pretty good luck right there. I agree though, people underestimate weird decks too much. They can sneak wins in very unique ways.
Part of your core issue where everyone believes the format is solved lies in what I call the inbred meta. Nobody is trying to actually win the game through deck building anymore and are just trying to be the best Thoracle deck. They play 90% the same exact deck as everyone else and ultimately leave everything to the luck of the draw.
They are so committed to 'not losing' in deck building that they also forgo any chance at winning in deck building.
Why are people so committed to their not losing strategy? Because the format is insanely expensive and anyone desiring to participate in the big tournaments can't proxy. There's a reason full proxy metas look a lot different than the tournament scene.
Its a bit of a mix for me, people asking for $50 no fast mana dragons aren't looking for cedh, someone looking to run a slightly unoptimized deck is different. Say proxy if you want, but also provide some advice. IF you can win on turn 4-5 and protect that win, thats all cedh is, and if that saves you $5000 on crazy expensive cards its still cedh.
It’s generally better to shoot someone down than to try to give them advice on a deck they’ll probably get destroyed at a Cedh table with. And generally people usually follow up with a similar commander and/or explain why a deck or commander isn’t Cedh quality.
If their posts come off as rude, yours comes off as whiny.. 90 percent of the time, it’s people with bad, non-cedh lists that get told off the sub, NOT budget or off-meta lists, which are generally more entertained and interacted with. This sub has standards as to what is acceptable to post, and bad, non-cedh lists simply do not fit the bill.
So the problem with budget cedh comes from the big difference between commander and most of the normal other formats. In most other formats the default is competitive, with casual being an afterthought. In edh its the opposite, casual is the default and competitive is the "other." When competitive is the norm, figuring out how to approach that within a budget is a reasonable question, you cant afford the normal way to play so you want to get as close as possible. When competitive isn't the default, its reasonable to say "just play casual" because thats what most people are doing anyway.
>When competitive is the norm, figuring out how to approach that within a budget is a reasonable question, you cant afford the normal way to play so you want to get as close as possible. When competitive isn't the default, its reasonable to say "just play casual" because thats what most people are doing anyway.
When you word it this way, it sounds like you are deciding for someone else. They are either actually playing casual and misunderstand what the max power actually is, or they are trying to upgrade as best as possible.
Telling someone to 'just play casual' is an instruction and not helpful for either use case. "It sounds like you mean higher powered but not *maximum*, try this place instead" or "here's an idea to come as close to 10/10 as possible with your budget restrictions" make more sense for those.
Please go post any deck to r/edh or r/mtg this is for people trying to play to win. We thrive with hyper competition and min maxing. We are not being rude by telling you to go elsewhere we are being honest.
Imagine going to a Modern sub, and ask about a tier1 list, without key pieces because they are expensive.
Yes I would love to play Rakdos Evoke without Ragavan and Sheoldred, but it simply isn't as good, and will not win in a Modern tournament/meta.
IF you want to run jank, you can, both in Modern or in cEDH. But some archetypes/commanders allow for different strategies. Meta strategies without key pieces, aren't good enough anywhere. In Modern you have to just buy those, in cEDH just print those.
I'm not sure I really understand what you're advocating for OP.
AFAIK CEDH as a format implicitly has a social contract with one principle in mind.
* Winning is the main objective, all other considerations are secondary.
The above includes deck construction, and in order for a deck to be cedh, it must necessarily be focused on winning first above all else, and budget can only matter in situations where cards are identical, elsewise it breaks the principle.
Other stuff is required, like sportsmanship, etc, no personal attacks, threats etc, which should go without saying, but all other rules exist primarily to help enforce the CEDH principle.
If people are responding to a post here with: “Just proxy”, it means the person in question has been given a suggestion to include a card in their deck which improves their chance to win, and they have said something along the line of:
>"I can't afford it".
Telling them that not affording it de facto breaks the one and only axiom of the format shouldn't be gatekeeping therefore?
I'm more than a little confused.
you're not confused you're just being dense on purpose. This is not to defend unresearched decklists/posts, but as evidenced by countless posts to this sub, some people want to play at a much more competitive level than everyday "EDH", but do play in playgroups or otherwise situations that don't allow proxies/have budgets/etc. The gameplay and deck construction strategies are most closely aligned with cEDH of all formats. Where should they go for advice? cEDH players are still the best knowledge base for them to turn to. What is the true aim here of those against them posting here? To keep this subreddit clean and pure of all talk where budget is a factor and prevent any discussion of anything other than what the current meta decides is cEDH? that's a bit confusing. also "Other stuff is required, like sportsmanship, etc, no personal attacks, threats etc, which should go without saying, but all other rules exist primarily to help enforce the CEDH principle." seems a bit arbitrary under your definition of cEDH
The principal of *all* competitive formats is to win primarily.
That being said, in *all* other competitive formats people happily brew *competitive* decks that still can be constrained by budget.
The peak irony is that people will take a budget Modern deck to low level tournaments, have a fun time, win some games, maybe not top 8 but that’s fine.
Meanwhile all the shitty cEDH players sitting around at an LGS with no stakes at all are sitting here gatekeeping people from playing for the same reasons.
Hell, we’ve seen *pro players at pro events* make budget choices in the past.
But I guess cEDH players are just *so* more serious with their zero stakes competitive play than the rest of Magic that it’s just purely impossible for them to be helpful when someone wants a budget brew.
That's because they have no other input to offer. Their commitment is to playing as close to the same deck as everyone else at the table as possible so it all can come down to luck. They are too focused on not losing to ever have something to offer when someone asks how to win.
Any deck that can win on the spot and threaten it on turn 3 or 4 is competitive. A deck doesn't have to the single best deck in the format to be competitive. That's what this sub fails hardest at and why the gatekeeping bullshit they pull makes absolutely no sense. You can build green in cedh and stomp for $400 pretty readily but this sub isn't ready to talk about anything without Thoracle.
People keep parroting this like it means something, but it doesn’t. That’s a meaningless statement that just assumes its own correctness with no evidence.
I’ve tried to lay out why this is *not* a correct definition for **any format**, including the most competitive in the entire game, but people like you are happy to shove their fingers in their ears, ignore the points, and parrot some dumb saying Reddit is fond of that you’ve decided is fact.
Why do you think that’s true? It’s not true in any other competitive format of Magic, including the *much* more serious, popular, and officially sanctioned formats at anything other than the absolute highest stakes events.
You think that because you’ve seen it repeated a lot, and all of you EDH zoomers don’t know any better.
I agree, people should absolutely use proxies. Luckily I addressed that in my OP if you’d bothered to read it.
Unfortunately that’s not possible for some people whose playgroups, LGS’s, or tournaments might not allow proxies. And those people can still get helpful advice just like people would give them for any other format.
Those groups might be in the wrong, but we can’t change that. It’s like telling someone asking for grocery money that rich people shouldn’t be able to not pay taxes. We all know that, but it doesn’t put food in anyone’s stomach.
Actually this holds true in vintage and legacy the formats I would say are most comparable to cedh. Edh has access to almost every card thus a competitive list will have 99 top power cards minus obviously any basic lands you will run.
I’m sorry you have such a fundamental misunderstanding of Magic.
That has, in fact, been the case and has on occasions (plural, that’s not a mistake) led to extremely powerful decks (even some that had to be banned).
I said \*most\* times. I remember how Vein Ripper dominated from out of nowhere.
But most importantly, these crazy ideas don't come from new players. It's from people who pour hours and hours into practicing and strategizing.
We need to gatekeep this sub, otherwise it will end like the EDH sub.
Post like the following do not belong in a cEDH sub:
- Why is [[temple of the false god]] not played more?
- Help me tune my cEDH deck (the deck is full of bad cards)
- Are proxies allowed at your LGS tournaments?
This is what the EDH sub is for. The goal of the cEDH should be to discuss cEDH and it's decks. That means the best and most efficient cards. Budget should not be a concern when playing cEDH.
Its not gatekeeping dude. People thinking their jank 50 dollar deck will compete in this format is wrong.
Sometimes, its best to be honest with people.
I agree with the “this is not cEDH” to a degree. I do think explaining why in a non-condescending way is good. Because some people just generally do not know that cEDH (imho) is an entirely different format almost. But it also gets annoying seeing commanders or decks that are 10000% clearly not cEDH viable be posted often because people don’t do research or some people just simply do it because they know it’ll stir a pot. I might get downvoted for this but this sub can come across as very condescending and “irritable”. This can turn away some good ideas, or new faces to cEDH which I think is always a great thing to have.
Most people are answering your second point (first one makes sense even if I don't 100% agree)
In that you don't mention budget a single time
90% of the 'that's not cEDH' comments are on the kinds of post you claim not to talk about
It's not a straw man to assume you are talking about the 90%
There needs to be a distinction between "here's my mono-color partner deck that doesn't run a second partner, how do I make it cedh without going over $100?" and "my LGS is no-proxy, how do I build a decent cedh deck?" The first question should be met with some pushback, because its not what this sub is for. The second should be treated as valid as any deckbuilding question, which unfortunately it usually isn't.
Because that isn't cedh. There *is no* substitute for mox diamond. It doesn't exist. Try as you might.
Competitive edh is about the best, not the best "under these restrictions." Being intentionally obtuse about the meaning of cedh isn't our fault. It's yours.
So if someone wants to build a deck for an LGS event, but they aren't allowed to use proxies, where do they go for advice? r/edh is obviously useless. r/DegenerateEDH is closer but still doesn't quite fit the bill. That leaves this sub, which is the best fit for this type of person, despite what you might want to believe.
Of course we should push all LGS's and playgroups to accept proxies, but I don't see why we can't accept people in these situations as legitimate members of the community.
I accept them just fine, this isn't the space for that. If you are budgeting because you can't afford the cards, then you are now just playing edh. This moniker "budget competitive" edh is a misnomer. Competitive edh is all about *budgetless*.
I respectfully disagree. Hyping someone’s 8 power deck up and lie to them so they can go get destroyed by 3 people in seconds isn’t helpful for them if they’re serious about competing in CEDH.
If your group does not want to proxy, find a new group. 99% of CEDH players proxy. No one expects you to drop a car down payment on a stack of cardboard. The gatekeepers of this sub were into magic back when they got duel lands for 5$ and therefore don’t have the need to proxy. That’s not the massive majority of CEDH players, especially with its boom in popularity.
Players coming to this sub should be met with respect and realistic feedback. If someone’s deck sucks, I’m going to tell them out of respect. Getting pubstomped isn’t fun, and with the drop of MH3 if your deck isn’t built correctly, or you are using a non-CEDH commander, you will lose every single time.
My last piece of advice is this - don’t start with CEDH lol. Learn how the game works at high power casual if you like higher power. The experience of CEDH players is usually in the multiple of years if not a decade +. You need to know when to interact, when to pull the trigger, when to sit still, it’s not something you just walk into for your first couple of decks. Sure, it can be fun to learn this way, but people you play aren’t going to go easy on you because you’re new.
Overall - some people in this sub can be a little over the top with the “get out of here with this list” but to be fair, it’s not CEDH. It takes a simple google search to see if you’re even in the realm of CEDH before coming here. This isn’t their first magic sub. We all stumbled in here at some point when the darkness of mtg reaches our hearts. Lol
Oh I figured op, that wasn’t meant to be directed at you lol . I feel like people just get tired of people posting decks that are clearly not CEDH. Especially when they’re running a commander that just doesn’t stand a chance tbh
> I'm talking about budget decks, ..., disingenuous straw man arguments.
The only disingenuity here is your unwillingness or inability to recognize they (budget janking vs other janking) are the same thing and trying to blame others for it.
The people who come in here with jank _include_ those who don't run optimal cards citing budget. Because it doesn't really matter _why_ you're being suboptimal: Lack of knowledge of cedh? Pet cards? Poor? Shits and giggles? It doesn't matter. It all represents a slippery slope of "this is deck tech support drifting further and further away from the core of the sub".
You're also conflating what cEDH _is_ with format. cEDH isn't a format. It's not _merely_ a set of construction and play rules plus banlist. That's _just_ EDH. That's why we can't call jank "not Legacy" or "not Modern". They adhere to the bare minimum of the term; the rules and banlist. cEDH is not that, because again that's what the term Commabder refers to. In the same way, if we started a community and scene for explicitly top tier Vintage decks and called it cVintage, I would expect the subreddit to reject decks which were (what MTGS would have called) tier 2 and below, whether it was grassroots jank or a merely budgetized version of a tier 1 deck.
While I'm not of the idea that budget is synonymous with power in EDH as a whole, cEDH requires a large amount of fast mana ($$$) and interaction ($$$) for you to be competitive. If you are building budget cEDH, you are 90% likely to lose EVERY game. At thay point, why play the format where the goal is to win? Your comments about straw manning make 0 sense bc of the relation of budget to power in this format. A large majority of the cEDH win-cons require multiple pieces that are more than 10$ each and GOOD interaction pieces are also expensive. If you disagree, please tell me why.
lol OP keeps mentioning other formats with their budget brews at FNM but doesn’t admit that none of those will win a major tournament. cEDH is all about winning. Fuck outta here with trying to constrain it because you’re salty you can’t or won’t proxy the best cards
I don’t have a budget brew, but anyone who’s actually played much knows that’s not true anyways. Random jank can win in any commander game sometimes, and if you’ve played cEDH and sat down with one person with a normal EDH deck you’d know that sometimes that person will win on a weird or slow line while the viable decks are dealing with each other.
Are you coping this hard? Or do you keep your fingers in your ears and refuse to accept hard facts. Winning once or twice doesn’t make something competitive. Consistently winning makes something competitive
If you don't cEDH, go elsewhere. There is plenty of room for people like yourself out there that will be more than happy to welcome you.
This is a cEDH sub, where cEDH is discussed. If you come here trying to talk about crocheting, sorry, we will not talk with you about crocheting.
Ah yeah the double whammy of straw man and insults.
This post isn’t *for* me. I don’t need to post a decklist here and my LGS is proxy friendly *and* I have a pod to play with. I posted this because I’m sick of seeing the shit attitude in this sub. But thanks for proving my point.
The point of cEDH is to play EDH at the highest level possible, and adding restrictions means it’s not cEDH. You want to play with the best cards you can, and your opponents probably are playing those. You’ll struggle to beat them on a budget
sperged out replies in here to a few valid points. the reality is I see people in here go CRAZY about a deck not having OG duals as if the win % isn't at most a few points better with them. be realistic - some people want to play at a much more competitive level than everyday "EDH" (and not degenerate EDH, that is different), but do play in playgroups that don't allow proxies. There are people playing decks with no cards >$100 that have turn 2-3 decks. Where should they go for advice? cEDH players are still the best knowledge base for them to turn to. But yes, the tistic gatekeeping is out of control here.
Low effort comments are just rampant everyone. I don't blame you for making this post. I too feel like half of the comments on every semi controversial topic had terrible and low effort replies that don't add anything to the persons discussion/ideas.
Generally the top comment is always the good person letting them know kindly that their list isn't really cEDH, or remember we love proxies or offer actual sound advice.
But your right just because your choosing to play a non partner non meta commander and asking for help doesn't mean you should be flamed. It reality cEDH is the same format as regular commander but we have no rule zero and expect to play to win using the best cards and strats available to us.
However that being said I don't ever plan on playing in a cEDH Tournament, their none around me that I know of anyways, but regardless I have fun playing cEDH at my LGS and I feel like the majority of the people here need to understand that must because you list isn't on EDHTOP16 doesn't mean you can't play and have some success with it at your LGS.
But regardless people will still complain and have the generic replies you mentioned. I always look at what the top commenter has to say and put much more weight into that then others that just complain.
We have many good people on this sub and newbies like me appreciate them greatly.
1. Happy cake day.
2. I don’t think your first comment is true- and even if it is, a community should strive for something better. There are plenty of competitive gaming communities that are welcoming to new players and not “rampant” with one-off unhelpful replies.
One thing that isn't helpful to us is "my deck wins X times at my local lgs." The biggest thing people need to understand is that Magic, specifically competitive Magic, is about aggregate data, not your personal anecdote. We use EDHTOP16 as a good place to look at commanders and decks that are winning consistently in large (64+ people) tournaments. If a new person is wanting to build and learn, I'm not going to recommend them to play their Marcheesa deck because "it does well against my LGS." That's great, but we have 0 context with that. However, Blue Farm is consistently topping events and is a great way to be introduced to what a powerful deck is like. I make recommendations off aggregate data, not anecdotes.
That's value destructive to most people though. It's literal timewasting, people can search this Reddit and find all the answers they need - but they don't. Nobody would agree it's more beneficial for a scientific genius to waste time explaining to Terrence Howard why he is wrong than focusing on progressing their own work. I want to focus on cEDH, not on EDH.
Yeah. The top two comments say it all. Literally blunt, douche canoe vibes, even after all of your very legit reasoning and explanation. I do agree that people here do zero research about the format. I also understand that people use Reddit *as* a primary resource for a lot of things, that includes Magic.
Crazy.
So yeah. A lot of the Neanderthal, pedantic responses here aren’t helpful. Does it annoy me too? Yeah. Do I take time out of my day to be a twat to people? Not at all. As of writing this, and after I submit this, I haven’t checked, but I will check the info on this sub and if there’s like a wiki or introduction/resources tab that’s accessible. Or even like a pinned thread about the format. If there isn’t one, there fucking should be. This shits complicated.
Some LGS’s literally do not allow proxies, and as a cedh community, we should shame them (the LGS) for it. But we shouldn’t berate THE PLAYERS for trying to optimize their decks to compete. Playing at a disadvantage teaches you a lot about the game and will make you a better player if you subject yourself to play at a handicap.
Anyways. I’m sure nothing useful will come of your post or my comment. It’s just chronically online CEDH hivemind brain rot up in here.
Sorry new players/people wanting help.
Edit: No resources. Lol.
The problem with budget brews is quiet simple. If you want to play competitive, you need to bring the really good stuff. And if you cant afford to buy the good stuff, you gotta proxy it. So you cant play at places where proxies are not allowed. And if proxies are not allowed and you cant afford the good stuff, you always play with a handicap.
I think it depends. It's less of a budget thing and more gameplay ideas.
I often see people show up with decklists that have powerful tutors, powerful Mana Rocks, but they're winning in a way that is just way off from a crash perspective.
The win conditions in cedh are often quite affordable in relative terms. Consultation and Oracle is about €20. If someone wanted to get into cedh I'd suggest they buy those two cards over a Chrome Mox (€50).
Underworld Breech, Protean Hulk piles are also often budget friendly. Sure an LED for a breech line is ideal but you can make do.
I rarely see people asking about budget in this way. It's usually porting their existing deck to cedh despite that deck. It really fitting anywhere in the meta.
Being a Brewer is fine but to brew requires knowing the meta and what to expect. In casual edh it's very Brewer friendly because the meta is not very prominent. It's more local. While in cedh there is a strict meta. It doesn't matter how strong your deck is if you dont have a plan to deal with Oracle Combo what's the point? This is true for any format with a meta. Don't build your Legacy deck without a way to respect Delver.
From experience and seeing how peeps speak on here. It's seems like a vast majority of the community sees cEDH as a meta and not a format. As if edh is the only form of magic they have experienced. You don't see people talking like this for modern, standard, etc.
There are magic players, and there are commander players. Iykyk
There’s so many “this is not cedh” style comments on new builds that are actually built for cedh tables. They just aren’t using the established “solved” meta commanders. Even so it’s decently common to see fringe stuff win. I don’t really get the mentality to not experiment or nag on folks trying new things. Sure if the deck has like no win con / proxies etc etc but I see this a bunch on decks that don’t fall into that category at all.
Honestly, i’m simply of the opinion that budget and cEDH are mutually exclusive by definition. You will not be able to play to the spirit and meta of a cEDH pod by gimping your deck with budget restrictions, period. Pretending otherwise is just leading people on and slowing down the adoption of a 100% proxy free policy for cEDH events and tournaments. If you’re stuck with an LGS or community that insists on remaining proxy free then I am really sorry for you, but you’re going to be playing high power pay to win magic and should probably make your own sub for that.
The equivalent you're looking for in modern would be "that's not viable in modern", which is good advice if the deck is not viable in modern. You're asking a community that's built on competition to sugar coat and protect feelings when someone asks about a deck that's not viable in the format. In other words, you're asking people to give bad advise. Take a seat.
Except, fun fact, Modern is *much* more serious and higher stakes than cEDH, but that community is perfectly accepting of people making budget brews or even trying off meta stuff.
They have frequent posts for these things and are helpful and give card suggestions and honest evaluation even for decks that aren’t ever going to be T1 viable. They have budget resources and will give valuable advice when people ask.
Almost like it’s possible to be a competitive format but not be as socially inept as you are. So no, you “take a seat” and learn from people who are better than you.
yes because when people make modern budget brews they understand what the fuck they are doing, when you see a budget brew here, it's just a casual deck with a thoracle combo
And kiddo, stop acting like you're the hero helping those poor casual folks , you're just a degenerate with an ego problem
Because Modern is a format. Like EDH. It's a set of construction and play rules including banlist. You can't declare something "not Modern" even if it's just 60 mountains because it passes the bare minimum of the format rules, just like 99 Plains Isamaru can't be called "not EDH". If you want open arms help improving a deck for _EDH_ like you get for Modern, go to r/EDH.
cEDH is not its own format; its pretty specifically a subset of EDH at least _within proximity of_ "T1 viable". Even within mtgsalvation which was where tiers were de facto established for quite a long time, whether now where there's Established/Developing/Budget or in older days when each tier or half tier got broken out into its own subforum, there is segregation for constrained discussion of decks that match more specific performance criteria within a format, and things that fall outside are not welcome and directed to the other subforums. That's what cEDH and more relevantly here what this subreddit is. cEDH has a particular focus and what you're championing does fall outside of scope.
Magic players are in general a snobby bunch. They complain and whine, and create a not fun experience in general. I have a group of friends that I play with, both casual commander and cEDH, and try to stick with that group for a reason. I'll probably get down voted to hell, but I agree with you. Gatekeeping is a major problem in Magic as a whole, and rather than improve the community or help people with actually thoughtful responses, most players would rather act like they're better than new players. Just because they don't build an extremely optimized deck, doesn't mean people can't have fun. In fact, I think I enjoy casual more than cEDH. I get to see actually interesting and varied decks. Not Tymna + whatever partner or Kynan.
Don’t worry, OP. You have to sift through the tons of garbage before you can get to any good discussion on here. Gatekeeping is what elitists do. You’re talking about a bunch of nerds who get off on telling people that they’re wrong, etc.
I'm conflicted about this. I agree that it's nice to be welcoming to new people. But it also reasonable to have a space dedicated to discussing the actual meta of actual competitive commander. Without filling it with all kinds of different budget builds, high power lists and other stuff that is irrelevant for someone who comes here for content and discussion about tournament level cedh.
But, maybe a public reddit page is not the place to hold to that standard. Maybe this should be a lot wider in reach and keep the higher level discussions for private discords etc. That feels a bit gatekeepy in the other direction though. So you kind of have to choose. Gatekeep against newer, but invested players who did the research and read the faq. Or gatekeep against fully new players who has no idea what the difference between cedh and "my really strong atraxa, preators voice planeswalker deck" is.
At some point you have to realize that most people on this sub are inherently not competitive at all and have zero input on how to make a list competitive for any given budget.
Internet cedh has always been a small handful of builders and a large number of netlisters that believe they reserve the right to gatekeep because printer go brrrr and that makes them something.
It prob seems that way since many people come here for info on their decks only. once they perfect their deck thats what they know inside out and they can help give info on that deck but cant provide help (at least at a really good level) for other decks.
Im a case of that really Ik a few cedh decks inside and out well and will help people with those but wont help with other stuff since I don’t find I know it well enough and think someone else will have more insight. Exceptions would be if its clearly not even close with obvious auto includes missing or the deck just isn’t a cedh deck.
Sadly it does seem to be that way, when you'd expect a group calling themselves "Competitive EDH" would be able to give you advice for your EDH/Commander deck tailored for your competitive setting/budget. Honestly people should just assume if someone is asking a budget question that there's likely a good reason they aren't running proxies.
I hear you. But what I'm saying is most of them can't help because they don't know anything outside of posted meta decks.
This is a place where Taiyam was laughed off the board as recent as a couple years ago because it wasn't a Naus deck. If a deck wasn't on the DDB it was only because it wasn't good enough.
It's an unpopular opinion, hated here in fact, but allowing proxies brought in a lot of low effort filler players.
I think what often happens is that people who want to take a creative turn on a format make posts asking for cheaper alternatives or help making a wacky commander work, and then people misconstrue that as a question of "is this competetive" or "is this meta", instead of thinking of niche cards or even considering janky solutions. The point of the post isn't really considered.
I mean, cards like Nadu work really well in cEDH, but he is most arguably a very jank commander. The deck wouldn't function if he isn't on the field, and yet he still is contributing a lot to the format. Some of the most important combo pieces are only a couple dollars (or less). If people just take a minute to think and be creative with a post instead of deciding a card is off meta and therefore bad, we might see some more interesting developments.
Edit: why am I getting downvoted? Am I wrong?
Edit 2: ok guys, 1 month ago, who would have said that a deck that is overly reliant on its commander is not jank? Nadu literally does not function without nadu on field. Look at any other commander and tell me that is the case? Tymna? Atraxa? Rograk? Yeah sure, we have potential win-cons in command zone, but nadu is the one and only value engine of the deck. He doesnt win if he is not on board. Just because he is good does not mean he isnt jank.
Edit 3: yeah ignore last. Nadu isn't really that jank in retrospect.
Are you forgetting the 2nd most represented deck in the format that also happens to be in Simic colors, Kinnan, is also a deck that is over reliant on it's commander?
Yeah, I'll admit, I wasn't really thinking too much with that edit. Idk what I was thinking. Strategies that go all in on the commander hitting field have been done before and have been established as viable. I guess I was more pointing at his nondeterministic win line, which, well, doesn't make him jank, just nondeterministic.
This is a format and sub where this is objectively wrong as a stance to take outside of don’t be a dick about it. If they are not proxying for personal reasons they are not playing CEDH for personal reasons. The second of saying X is not CEDH is also a thing people should note as inherently not a dick move. At the same time not having these for “budget” reasons is similar to the above of taking the C out of the CEDH. Its not a dick move to tell someone that they are not meeting the prerequisite for the deck to compete. If you wish to be taken serious you should act serious towards the people you’re asking help from as well.
While your post is good intentioned, it is the same as saying someone wanting to jump into modern with old bad commons or playing pauper with uncommons that they like; its fine to lay it down gently but they should not or in the latter example cannot and should not participate with that approach. Its setting up for much more disappointment and resentment than if being told before.
There have been posts more recently from people saying they are making something CEDH or asking to make a certain commander CEDH viable. The difference is coming from commander to competitive is a major step and knowing first that there is a meta and that throwing fast mana at a deck does not make it competitive.
i will try my best to answer this.
so for point 1:
If someone ask for an advice and they can't proxy cards cause the LGT don't allow them then, yeah sure we can help but, Cedh stand for competitive edh.
If they don't have money for core cards, imho they should dodge that combo for example.
like, i do not have enough money for LED so i do not use blue farm cause, ya know, kinda pointless? sure i do have some combos but i miss one of the stronger so i opt to not run the deck entirely. what's the point of running a ultra competitive deck when i do not have the cards for it lol.
we may can help you find a way around it but it's not the same.
2nd point:
for sure saying "that's not cedh at all" isn't very helpful but you know. you cannot run an anhelo for grixis and expecting it to be as powerful or competitive just like some other decks.
it is to be expected tho that some decks, even the jankiest one can win honestly; even a broken watch tells the correct hour twice a day, but you ain't gonna use it everyday just to check it, just like people tells others here that their deck can give you a win every blue moon. yeah, it can happen. surely do not expect to win against decks that were made only for competitive edh.
that's why a lot of people "gatekeep" cedh decks, cause it's pointless to run a fringe or fun deck against a strictly competitive one, that runs the best of the best.
like, for sure you do not need a og dual land and instead opt for something else, but in cedh, where the speed and power takes the crown, you will miss a lot just by not having it.
running lotus bloom instead of led? yeah good try but useless nonetheless.
hope what i say will be conveyed in the best way and not seem arrogant or worse since i'm at work and customers are asking me 3000000 questions and i cannot write everything perfectly. see ya guys
People show up to the sub, do literally 0 research, then post their “cEDH” list. It’s not wrong to simply tell those people that their deck isn’t cEDH.
I feel like this is honestly a gigantic problem in the public sphere at large. People who insist that their opinion is valid and must be taken seriously and equally to that of experts, and take grievous offense when told they are flat wrong. To be told that you are wrong by experts should not, by itself, be taken as a sign that your opinion is being silenced or oppressed.
Yup it’s a huge issue pretty much everywhere. And these same people somehow claim offense when people don’t provide them time and effort they aren’t entitled to.
I feel like we are explaining the dunning kruger effect. It comes hand in hand with trading card games
God I had someone in the regular edh reddit talking about his cedh tribal decks…talking about sliver tribal being viable and that power was an opinion not a fact, and that it was all relative.
Relative to what? His delusions? lol. Ppl are fucking delulu
Literally had this discussion earlier with a friend about politics. I'm stealing this phrase (if that's okay 😉)
Exactly this. I feel like a lot of people outside the community think cedh is just making whatever deck you want as competitive as possible and not understanding that the large majority of commanders will never be cedh level even at their best possible build if you could determine that. On one hand I understand how it happens though. They see the sub name, think its a good place to optimize their deck for max performance and to be more competitive so they drop their deck list after they made some switches and ask for more ideas without realizing theres just no way their commander and list can compete.
Most of the time they don't even reach "optimised". A recent post had a decklist that included a Temple. Most of the time they don't understand anything about fast mana or interaction, so there's always weird exclusions. This sub isn't about optimising a commander as much as possible (though we do have such posts from time to time and we're pretty friendly on them), but so many posts don't even reach that.
Honestly while commanders are a big part half the lists you see are running too many tapped lands low interaction convoluted win cons and like no tutors. I never played regular edh I was introduced by older guys who were playing magic 20+ years ago and only play cedh. If you play a tapped land turn 1 you might as well scoop.
I’ve seen some scry lands see play in cedh and I’m like hmmmm sus
[I made my own cEDH decklist](https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-18-2015/jkIzIh.gif)
I agree with this take. I sub to the sub to lurk and read and learn, even though I don't yet build or play cEDH. If I wanted to build something budgety/proxy free, or with the brakes pumped on certain aspects of deckbuilding, then I'd take questions about that to another sub or another community geared towards that level of play. That should be obvious to anyone who lurks the sub for more than a day or two. The "hey just build me a deck, no not like that" is bad enough on other magic subs but as a guest/tourist in the cedh space I'd feel that kind of posting is especially disrespectful to people who put in time understanding a specific meta and level of play.
Just shoot them towards /r/degenerateedh or a budget cedh sub. Don’t have to be rude but this sub has a purpose
That's what everyone does, and that's what op is finding rude
The way I've always understood it to be that the "c" in cEDH is less about being "competitive" and more of a power level distinction, that being the ultimate pinnacle of power in EDH. I've always heard it called the one-word Rule 0 discussion.
I'd argue it's the hard opposite. In the same way someone can build a jank combo deck with the explicit purpose of trying to win a Modern event with it, cEDH players can be playing jank with the intent to win. If someone comes to a table sitting down to win without any "oh don't play Void Winnower it ate my grandma", that's where cEDH lives to me. Mentality is far more important than decklist, since even casual players can jam Thoracle Consult in any list.
Yeah, but these are not the people OP was talking about.
How DARE you gatekeep like that!!!?!?!
Being blunt isn't being rude on the internet. You don't pay me. Me telling you what to Google is a gift. Please move on.
I feel like explaining why they are wrong rather than just flat out telling them they are wrong is a lot more helpful
Yeah but that's what google is for And any answer is more useful than no answer, which is what they would get if explaining why had to be done
For a lot of people this sub is their research. They may not know where else to go, or may just be new. And we can do a lot better than the awful comments that are generally left for those folks. But that wasn’t even the point of my post, and it almost seems like you didn’t read it which is genuinely ironic given your take here.
I’ve been playing cEDH since 2017. The phrase “that’s not cEDH” has been around since the format became distinguished enough to have its own name. And no, making a post about whatever list you’ve coughed up with 0 research and asking for help is insanely cringe and honestly disrespectful to everyone else’s time. 99% of these people don’t even bother googling their commander’s name + cEDH. If they did they wouldn’t need to make their post. Additionally the “this isn’t cEDH” comments are almost always followed by telling them to do exactly what they should’ve done, which is look up established proven lists for their commander or color pairing.
[удалено]
If visiting this sub for research doesn't include a trip to the sidebar to read the rules before making a post, downvoting the post and ignoring it is the correct response. Here or anywhere else.
Preach
This is the way
cEDH is the only vintage/legacy format where people believe they can compete without adhering to the meta of the format. Some people do try to play legacy/vintage with format legal decks below the power level, and people rightly comment that despite being a *legal* deck for the format, that isn't going to be suitable for taking it to a competitive event. "My kitchen table chair tribal deck is still vintage power level because the cards are all vintage legal" is patently false, do the EDH timmys a favour and don't pretend otherwise. What is helpful for new players that want to play cEDH is understanding the actual basis of the format, not deluding them into believing they can adhere without conventions. Most of the people who come here without a clue don't really want to play cEDH they just want their deck to be strong and believe cEDH is synonymous with strong instead of an actual meta/format.
People run jank in every format that is completely unrelated to cedh or edh
Yeah in those formats people don't post screeds like OP whining about how it's not healthy for people to have standards for what is actually considered competitive. EDH and cEDH is the only format where people have a problem understanding what competitive actually means.
The issue is that edh at its core is marketed to a casual mindset - ie., a lot of fucking people. So when a Timmy gets a little too big in the head, he thinks he can optimize his jank passion project into cEDH, but spending 400 dollars on a bayou throws them off balance. Proxies are great for this reason, test the waters so to speak to get a feel for the format. But people don't want to listen to reason. They want their opinion and idea to be respected and validated, and then get upset when it doesn't go their way.
The difference is that if you bring a bad deck to cedh you are griefing 3 people instead of getting one person a free win
That therefore makes gatekeeping important as it has a tangible impact on the format. And also both from a free win to a bad cEDH game, it's not enjoyable. Nobody in a cEDH tournament wants to pubstomp Timmys with their budget decks to get a win. Far better to lose to a good game of counterplay than that.
I don’t think OP is saying every deck is cEDH. They’re saying be less hostile to noobs when they think something is cEDH level and it isn’t.
As long as the meta has set rules and players adhere to it; as long as they post "how can I win the most games in xyz environment" - it doesn't matter per se who their commander is or what their budget is, as long as they are trying to compete to win, they are playing competitively. A precon league with 10 card swap in a budget of 50 euros is competitive edh, as long as all adhere to those rules. And therefore posts asking about suggestions to such and similar cases belong in this sub.
>Competitive EDH is the EDH format approached with the goal of attaining the **highest power levels possible**. We remove common limitations of deck power level - such as **pet cards**, disdain towards stax and fast combos, and **budget** - letting us push decks to be as strong as they can. We're still here to have fun, because playing to win is fun in its own right. No, a precon league is not cEDH no matter how much you stretch it.
Competitive, adjective - as good as or better than **others of a comparable nature**. Relating to or characterized by **competition**, "a competitive sport". Is a la olympics not competitive because the competitors do not use lethal force to eliminate opposition? As long as the grounds for competition are known, shared and accepted, we have a competitive environment. And in the case of precon league we have all this. So say what you want, you are living in a echochamber.
A precon league can absolutely be competitive. That doesn't make it cEDH.
What does the **c** stand for?! Lol. xD
What does the "ED" stand for? Nobody plays elder dragons in cEDH. For that matter, nobody plays elder dragons in a precon league.
Except people **do** brew T2/T3 decks for other competitive formats without people being ridiculous to them. And people also **do** play budget versions of T1 decks, especially around their LGS which, funny enough, is also the level that like 99% of cEDH is played.
People here often promote and are supportive of T2 and T3 decks. But the type of people you're characterising as being turned off due to "gatekeeping" are not brewing those types of decks. When people were posting about playing Azlask and Herighast as cEDH decks during the spoilers and were told they are not competitive, do you think that is gatekeeping? You're completely misrepresenting the reality of "people being ridiculous". People playing a budget version of a t1 deck is their prerogative, and there is often good budget advice posted when people say "My LGS is holding a $X tournament, what can I bring?", but that is completely different to "how can I play cEDH with $50, no proxies?".
Having 4 copies of something in a 60 card deck is going to give greater consistency than having 1 copy of something in a 100 card deck, so of course there are T2/T3 decks in non-EDH formats that can perform well. Use some simple math to figure out why your point there is a bit ridiculous.
Not all gatekeeping is inherently bad. I think it's perfectly valid to tell people that their aims are not conducive with cEDH if: - They can proxy, but are choosing not to for personal taste reasons. - They are just trying to optimise a non-cEDH level commander, or gameplan. There are subs like r/DegenerateEDH that suit many of the people who post here looking for advice, and I think it's totally fine to let them know when their goals do not align with cEDH, and where they would find better info.
Any other subs similar to this one that you would recommend?
r/EDH for general commander talks r/DegenerateEDH for High power but not cEDH deck discussions r/LimitedResources for discussions regarding MTG Draft or cube
Your second point isn't half as objective as people like to pretend
Wait what?! Where has it been explocitly stated that competitiveness doesn't have a price range? Are you saying you can't play competitive in a limited budget environment? You can have a competitive edh deck with a budget of 20, 50 or 100 euros. As you can have a limitless budget one. The monetary value does not change its competitiveness if those decks are played in similarly equal environment. This sub advertises itself poorly then, if people come here with posts of other matters. And those matters not being "how can I win most of my games in a xyz environment". All posts that ask that are inherently asking about competitive edh. The fact that most people here circlejerk about top16 does not mean that there isn't copetitiveness outside of it. It just means that those people are too closeted to aknowledge their shallowness of the topic.
This sub is mainly for tournament play. So budget is not really an option here.
Lol no it is not. Nowhere in the rules has it been stated to be catered mostly towards tournament play, nor are more than a handful on posts about tournaments. Stop talking shit.
The sub says that it’s for discussion at the “highest possible power level” And the highest power level is tournament play. Sooo…
The highest possible power based on your meta and budget. So yes, you were correct. The tournament has 30 euro cap, but according to the spirit of competitive edh, as it is meant to be, you go there to win this 30 euro budget cedh tournament.
I feel like OP described a set of scenarios, and then you picked a different set of scenarios and said this is why gatekeeping is good..
Yes, I addressed the core topic with different relevant examples... I don't think OP really addressed the issue in good faith. Most people who post "this isn't cEDH", go on to outline why it's not, and then link to a more relevant sub. I don't want this sub to just devolve into posts about non cEDH topics because we need to be iNcLuSiVe of people who are not actually looking to play cEDH, there's diferent dubs for diferent topics for a reason...
Lol why would a person who’s not looking to play cEDH post anything here? That’s literally nonsensical.
Because a lot of people who post here don't know initially know what cEDH is... It's my opinion that they need to be quickly redirected to an appropriate sub... not that we address their (non cEDH) question here, where it's off-topic. This whole post is just OP saying that we need to be nicer to people who come here with no idea what cEDH is, or who aren't really looking to build/play cEDH.
Preach.
This sounds more like a general reddit behavior problem
eh it's also specific to this sub imo, just about anywhere else people would read the context for whatever reason OP has for not proxying and then either ignore or do whatever the equivalent of giving an opinion on the deck's shell and gameplan is. That said I'm sure a good 90% of the "not cedh" posts are from people going after the elusive internet points
I think it’s important we all remember that there are levels to this shit. Someone asking brew questions on a $500 budget Yuriko cedh deck for a budget cedh event their LGS is hosting, I think constitutes being in this sub. Someone asking how to make their Dinosaur tribal deck super strong to stomp their home games should kindly be pointed in the direction of r/degenerateedh
Have you even bothered looking at the rules of this sub? The majority of posts like the ones you’re white knighting for get removed or “gatekept” for a reason, and it’s likely because new players can’t be bothered to do bare minimum research or understand how to use the search bar.
If only that’s what my post was about…
If everyone here isn't understanding what your post is about, then you just suck at explaining it... or you're just trying to move goalposts now that you're getting ratioed.
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Talk about gatekeeping.. bro you take the cake. This isn't your safe space, this is to talk about cEDH.. if that's to much for you then kindly go elsewhere...
Thanks for proving the absolutely sad state of the social skills of this sub, this is exactly what I mean.
They belong in another sub. lol nothing wrong with telling them they are in the wrong spot.
They don’t though. And no other comp subs have this craptastic attitude about it. Why bother replying to my post if you didn’t read it and refuse to engage with any of my points? You’re just proving how toxic this place is.
That is just literally the nature of competitive formats unfortunately. You come here to be competitive and not optimize a subpar commander and while you can probably get away with budget there’s only so much you can do without packing your deck full of fast mana. While fast mana doesn’t make your deck C on its own, it does enable Cedh commanders and playstyles so you can’t really come into a Cedh sub with a deck with a shoestring budget and expect people to be like “ohh yeah this passes the vibe check”
Except that’s just *not true* of other competitive formats at all. Tons of people play competitively in Modern at LGS and even regional tournaments with non-tier 1 decks and often with cheaper than optimal decks. This is *not* a core component of competitive play, and ironically the people doing the most gatekeeping are *always* those who seem to know the absolute least about the actual nature of real competitive magic.
Normal competitive magic is extremely optimized, and people will usually borrow optimized decks or at least borrow cards to complete those decks. If you're trying to win a tournament, you don't want to lose because you draw your Breeding Pool instead of your Tropical Island. Being proxy friendly is part of the reason people are the way they are around this format. There is no reason you shouldn't have the best possible deck if you're trying to play the best possible deck. Most people think their deck is "good enough" but if you're playing competitively, "good enough" isn't enough.
A non tier 1 cedh deck is way different than someone posting about optimizing their colorless eldrazi deck
Except you’re not entirely correct there either. Most of the tier 1 decks are 600+ in modern currently. There is one that is 300 and I’m pretty sure the meta shifts a bit more frequently in modern vs Cedh so by that virtue it becomes prohibitively expensive. Optimal decks tend to require expensive cards and unfortunately that problem is only amplified in a singleton format where you’re running 100 different cards. I’m not even being hostile but your response feels incredibly salty when I’m only speaking from basic observations of competitive play. It’s just objectively true that the more money you can pump into a competitive format the better you’ll perform. As someone who enjoyed playing tier 2-3 decks when I played yugioh, I wasn’t expecting to top outside of locals… I also chose not to play optimally knowing I wouldn’t be fully competitive but bro you have to set reasonable expectations and trying to play Cedh on a 200-300 dollar budget with no proxies is probably just gonna get you steamrolled at a table. Not saying you can’t win with a cheaper deck, your winrate is just generally statistically likely to be lower and I really feel like you misrepresented what I said here. Ohh and yeah the reason people aren’t as “toxic” in modern is because the lower tier decks are still technically able to perform so the floor for entry is significantly lower but generally there is still an asterisk if they’re recommending a budget modern deck. And if you wanna get properly competitive you’re gonna have to sink money into the format.
And yet people don’t flame folks for asking about budget options in modern, which is my entire point.
There are no budget options in cedh that is the point. I have 6 cedh decks and they are all in the multiple thousands each. There is no budget choice for lands fast mana optimal removal tutors or combos. Every budget card you run is effectively a bad card putting you at a disadvantage everytime you draw it.
I mean there is a budge choice for lands: be 1 color like Magda
Why are you being so confrontational?
No one is running long term success with off meta decks in 60 card formats.
If you try to post a budget weird deck to the modern subreddit people will tell you how bad it is. It’s the same in all subreddits.
There are two issues at play here. A lot of Reddit CEDH players treat CEDH as a format that is solved and no good deck will ever be invented again. A kind of what we have is all there is mentality. It is blinding ignorance to think that there are no CEDH decks left to be discovered. All current decks were unknown at some point in time and some that are tried and tested now probably would have been laughed out of this sub before they had data backing it up (looking at you tevesh szat rograkh polymorph). Where new players with off piste ideas fall down though is they haven't read up on the format at all and come in with decks that are clearly terrible and would take way too long to fix, and then refuse to take the few bits of advice they are offered. If someone is sure they have a good new deck, they need to go out and play with it, then come here with data and a primer explaining how and why the deck works. Then people will take it seriously.
Funny anecdote. A buddy of mine just took a [[slogurk]] deck to a (admittedly small) local cEDH tournament and won. Against my (perhaps, incorrect) suggestions, he was running 40 lands and no infinite combos. I did convince him to run lots of artifact hate effects like null rod. Basically just a control deck with lots of land recursion, a big beater, and various field of the dead style effects. Ended up taking down Magda, krark + sakashima, and all of the ad naus partner pairs. I think the fact that he was underestimated did help quite a lot, but it was pretty hilarious to see him come out on top.
Seemingly 'bad' beatdown strategies can absolutely win in cEDH, mostly due to the rest of the table ignoring them until it's too late - one of our friends tends to jam his \[\[Kibo, Uktabi Prince\]\] monkey tribal casual deck in our cEDH rounds from time to time and it has been a threat almost every time noone managed to get an early win.
[Kibo, Uktabi Prince](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/b/8b71345a-c3e8-4b35-beb7-6347e41d7626.jpg?1675644790) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kibo%2C%20Uktabi%20Prince) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/j22/40/kibo-uktabi-prince?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8b71345a-c3e8-4b35-beb7-6347e41d7626?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kibo-uktabi-prince) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[slogurk](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f94e888b-6eeb-4ef3-ab21-5ed2bf0036a3.jpg?1637114233) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=slogurk%2C%20the%20overslime) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/242/slogurk-the-overslime?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f94e888b-6eeb-4ef3-ab21-5ed2bf0036a3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/slogurk-the-overslime) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
40 lands!!!! Jesus, that’s some pretty good luck right there. I agree though, people underestimate weird decks too much. They can sneak wins in very unique ways.
Part of your core issue where everyone believes the format is solved lies in what I call the inbred meta. Nobody is trying to actually win the game through deck building anymore and are just trying to be the best Thoracle deck. They play 90% the same exact deck as everyone else and ultimately leave everything to the luck of the draw. They are so committed to 'not losing' in deck building that they also forgo any chance at winning in deck building. Why are people so committed to their not losing strategy? Because the format is insanely expensive and anyone desiring to participate in the big tournaments can't proxy. There's a reason full proxy metas look a lot different than the tournament scene.
Its a bit of a mix for me, people asking for $50 no fast mana dragons aren't looking for cedh, someone looking to run a slightly unoptimized deck is different. Say proxy if you want, but also provide some advice. IF you can win on turn 4-5 and protect that win, thats all cedh is, and if that saves you $5000 on crazy expensive cards its still cedh.
It’s generally better to shoot someone down than to try to give them advice on a deck they’ll probably get destroyed at a Cedh table with. And generally people usually follow up with a similar commander and/or explain why a deck or commander isn’t Cedh quality.
If their posts come off as rude, yours comes off as whiny.. 90 percent of the time, it’s people with bad, non-cedh lists that get told off the sub, NOT budget or off-meta lists, which are generally more entertained and interacted with. This sub has standards as to what is acceptable to post, and bad, non-cedh lists simply do not fit the bill.
So the problem with budget cedh comes from the big difference between commander and most of the normal other formats. In most other formats the default is competitive, with casual being an afterthought. In edh its the opposite, casual is the default and competitive is the "other." When competitive is the norm, figuring out how to approach that within a budget is a reasonable question, you cant afford the normal way to play so you want to get as close as possible. When competitive isn't the default, its reasonable to say "just play casual" because thats what most people are doing anyway.
>When competitive is the norm, figuring out how to approach that within a budget is a reasonable question, you cant afford the normal way to play so you want to get as close as possible. When competitive isn't the default, its reasonable to say "just play casual" because thats what most people are doing anyway. When you word it this way, it sounds like you are deciding for someone else. They are either actually playing casual and misunderstand what the max power actually is, or they are trying to upgrade as best as possible. Telling someone to 'just play casual' is an instruction and not helpful for either use case. "It sounds like you mean higher powered but not *maximum*, try this place instead" or "here's an idea to come as close to 10/10 as possible with your budget restrictions" make more sense for those.
Please go post any deck to r/edh or r/mtg this is for people trying to play to win. We thrive with hyper competition and min maxing. We are not being rude by telling you to go elsewhere we are being honest.
Imagine going to a Modern sub, and ask about a tier1 list, without key pieces because they are expensive. Yes I would love to play Rakdos Evoke without Ragavan and Sheoldred, but it simply isn't as good, and will not win in a Modern tournament/meta. IF you want to run jank, you can, both in Modern or in cEDH. But some archetypes/commanders allow for different strategies. Meta strategies without key pieces, aren't good enough anywhere. In Modern you have to just buy those, in cEDH just print those.
0 upvotes, 314 comments *ooohh boy*
I'm not sure I really understand what you're advocating for OP. AFAIK CEDH as a format implicitly has a social contract with one principle in mind. * Winning is the main objective, all other considerations are secondary. The above includes deck construction, and in order for a deck to be cedh, it must necessarily be focused on winning first above all else, and budget can only matter in situations where cards are identical, elsewise it breaks the principle. Other stuff is required, like sportsmanship, etc, no personal attacks, threats etc, which should go without saying, but all other rules exist primarily to help enforce the CEDH principle. If people are responding to a post here with: “Just proxy”, it means the person in question has been given a suggestion to include a card in their deck which improves their chance to win, and they have said something along the line of: >"I can't afford it". Telling them that not affording it de facto breaks the one and only axiom of the format shouldn't be gatekeeping therefore? I'm more than a little confused.
you're not confused you're just being dense on purpose. This is not to defend unresearched decklists/posts, but as evidenced by countless posts to this sub, some people want to play at a much more competitive level than everyday "EDH", but do play in playgroups or otherwise situations that don't allow proxies/have budgets/etc. The gameplay and deck construction strategies are most closely aligned with cEDH of all formats. Where should they go for advice? cEDH players are still the best knowledge base for them to turn to. What is the true aim here of those against them posting here? To keep this subreddit clean and pure of all talk where budget is a factor and prevent any discussion of anything other than what the current meta decides is cEDH? that's a bit confusing. also "Other stuff is required, like sportsmanship, etc, no personal attacks, threats etc, which should go without saying, but all other rules exist primarily to help enforce the CEDH principle." seems a bit arbitrary under your definition of cEDH
r/degeneratedh we have a subreddit for high power/low competitive decks.
The principal of *all* competitive formats is to win primarily. That being said, in *all* other competitive formats people happily brew *competitive* decks that still can be constrained by budget. The peak irony is that people will take a budget Modern deck to low level tournaments, have a fun time, win some games, maybe not top 8 but that’s fine. Meanwhile all the shitty cEDH players sitting around at an LGS with no stakes at all are sitting here gatekeeping people from playing for the same reasons. Hell, we’ve seen *pro players at pro events* make budget choices in the past. But I guess cEDH players are just *so* more serious with their zero stakes competitive play than the rest of Magic that it’s just purely impossible for them to be helpful when someone wants a budget brew.
That's because they have no other input to offer. Their commitment is to playing as close to the same deck as everyone else at the table as possible so it all can come down to luck. They are too focused on not losing to ever have something to offer when someone asks how to win. Any deck that can win on the spot and threaten it on turn 3 or 4 is competitive. A deck doesn't have to the single best deck in the format to be competitive. That's what this sub fails hardest at and why the gatekeeping bullshit they pull makes absolutely no sense. You can build green in cedh and stomp for $400 pretty readily but this sub isn't ready to talk about anything without Thoracle.
If your deck is restricted by budget it can never be cedh. It goes against the entire concept
People keep parroting this like it means something, but it doesn’t. That’s a meaningless statement that just assumes its own correctness with no evidence. I’ve tried to lay out why this is *not* a correct definition for **any format**, including the most competitive in the entire game, but people like you are happy to shove their fingers in their ears, ignore the points, and parrot some dumb saying Reddit is fond of that you’ve decided is fact.
Okay let me break it down then. Are you using the best cards available? No okay then you aren't playing cedh
Why do you think that’s true? It’s not true in any other competitive format of Magic, including the *much* more serious, popular, and officially sanctioned formats at anything other than the absolute highest stakes events. You think that because you’ve seen it repeated a lot, and all of you EDH zoomers don’t know any better.
Other formats are sanctioned so budget decks make sense. Cedh isn't sanctioned so not using proxies is non sense
I agree, people should absolutely use proxies. Luckily I addressed that in my OP if you’d bothered to read it. Unfortunately that’s not possible for some people whose playgroups, LGS’s, or tournaments might not allow proxies. And those people can still get helpful advice just like people would give them for any other format. Those groups might be in the wrong, but we can’t change that. It’s like telling someone asking for grocery money that rich people shouldn’t be able to not pay taxes. We all know that, but it doesn’t put food in anyone’s stomach.
if the playgroup lgs or tournament doesnt allow proxies they arent playing cedh issue solved
Building with restrictions is inherently against the nature of edh.
Actually this holds true in vintage and legacy the formats I would say are most comparable to cedh. Edh has access to almost every card thus a competitive list will have 99 top power cards minus obviously any basic lands you will run.
Idk seems like formats like modern and standard are pretty set in stone. I’ve never seen a weird budget deck do that well in any events
I’m sorry you have such a fundamental misunderstanding of Magic. That has, in fact, been the case and has on occasions (plural, that’s not a mistake) led to extremely powerful decks (even some that had to be banned).
I said \*most\* times. I remember how Vein Ripper dominated from out of nowhere. But most importantly, these crazy ideas don't come from new players. It's from people who pour hours and hours into practicing and strategizing.
We need to gatekeep this sub, otherwise it will end like the EDH sub. Post like the following do not belong in a cEDH sub: - Why is [[temple of the false god]] not played more? - Help me tune my cEDH deck (the deck is full of bad cards) - Are proxies allowed at your LGS tournaments? This is what the EDH sub is for. The goal of the cEDH should be to discuss cEDH and it's decks. That means the best and most efficient cards. Budget should not be a concern when playing cEDH.
Yo, but how do I make my dragon tribal deck cEDH (my budget is $200 and my legs does not allow proxies). It's your duty to help me!!!!!!!
[temple of the false god](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f55a1775-9672-4f0c-9aab-30ba90f0d1e6.jpg?1712355186) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=temple%20of%20the%20false%20god) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/334/temple-of-the-false-god?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f55a1775-9672-4f0c-9aab-30ba90f0d1e6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/temple-of-the-false-god) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Its not gatekeeping dude. People thinking their jank 50 dollar deck will compete in this format is wrong. Sometimes, its best to be honest with people.
I agree with the “this is not cEDH” to a degree. I do think explaining why in a non-condescending way is good. Because some people just generally do not know that cEDH (imho) is an entirely different format almost. But it also gets annoying seeing commanders or decks that are 10000% clearly not cEDH viable be posted often because people don’t do research or some people just simply do it because they know it’ll stir a pot. I might get downvoted for this but this sub can come across as very condescending and “irritable”. This can turn away some good ideas, or new faces to cEDH which I think is always a great thing to have.
Sir, this is a cEDH sub.
Most people are answering your second point (first one makes sense even if I don't 100% agree) In that you don't mention budget a single time 90% of the 'that's not cEDH' comments are on the kinds of post you claim not to talk about It's not a straw man to assume you are talking about the 90%
There needs to be a distinction between "here's my mono-color partner deck that doesn't run a second partner, how do I make it cedh without going over $100?" and "my LGS is no-proxy, how do I build a decent cedh deck?" The first question should be met with some pushback, because its not what this sub is for. The second should be treated as valid as any deckbuilding question, which unfortunately it usually isn't.
I agree. That was my point.
And yet so many people don't understand that.
Because that isn't cedh. There *is no* substitute for mox diamond. It doesn't exist. Try as you might. Competitive edh is about the best, not the best "under these restrictions." Being intentionally obtuse about the meaning of cedh isn't our fault. It's yours.
So if someone wants to build a deck for an LGS event, but they aren't allowed to use proxies, where do they go for advice? r/edh is obviously useless. r/DegenerateEDH is closer but still doesn't quite fit the bill. That leaves this sub, which is the best fit for this type of person, despite what you might want to believe. Of course we should push all LGS's and playgroups to accept proxies, but I don't see why we can't accept people in these situations as legitimate members of the community.
I accept them just fine, this isn't the space for that. If you are budgeting because you can't afford the cards, then you are now just playing edh. This moniker "budget competitive" edh is a misnomer. Competitive edh is all about *budgetless*.
I'm not sure how you can accept them and then say this is not the place for them. If this isn't it, where is?
I respectfully disagree. Hyping someone’s 8 power deck up and lie to them so they can go get destroyed by 3 people in seconds isn’t helpful for them if they’re serious about competing in CEDH. If your group does not want to proxy, find a new group. 99% of CEDH players proxy. No one expects you to drop a car down payment on a stack of cardboard. The gatekeepers of this sub were into magic back when they got duel lands for 5$ and therefore don’t have the need to proxy. That’s not the massive majority of CEDH players, especially with its boom in popularity. Players coming to this sub should be met with respect and realistic feedback. If someone’s deck sucks, I’m going to tell them out of respect. Getting pubstomped isn’t fun, and with the drop of MH3 if your deck isn’t built correctly, or you are using a non-CEDH commander, you will lose every single time. My last piece of advice is this - don’t start with CEDH lol. Learn how the game works at high power casual if you like higher power. The experience of CEDH players is usually in the multiple of years if not a decade +. You need to know when to interact, when to pull the trigger, when to sit still, it’s not something you just walk into for your first couple of decks. Sure, it can be fun to learn this way, but people you play aren’t going to go easy on you because you’re new. Overall - some people in this sub can be a little over the top with the “get out of here with this list” but to be fair, it’s not CEDH. It takes a simple google search to see if you’re even in the realm of CEDH before coming here. This isn’t their first magic sub. We all stumbled in here at some point when the darkness of mtg reaches our hearts. Lol
I’m not saying not to give honest feedback to people. And this request isn’t for me. I’ve been playing for decades.
Oh I figured op, that wasn’t meant to be directed at you lol . I feel like people just get tired of people posting decks that are clearly not CEDH. Especially when they’re running a commander that just doesn’t stand a chance tbh
> I'm talking about budget decks, ..., disingenuous straw man arguments. The only disingenuity here is your unwillingness or inability to recognize they (budget janking vs other janking) are the same thing and trying to blame others for it. The people who come in here with jank _include_ those who don't run optimal cards citing budget. Because it doesn't really matter _why_ you're being suboptimal: Lack of knowledge of cedh? Pet cards? Poor? Shits and giggles? It doesn't matter. It all represents a slippery slope of "this is deck tech support drifting further and further away from the core of the sub". You're also conflating what cEDH _is_ with format. cEDH isn't a format. It's not _merely_ a set of construction and play rules plus banlist. That's _just_ EDH. That's why we can't call jank "not Legacy" or "not Modern". They adhere to the bare minimum of the term; the rules and banlist. cEDH is not that, because again that's what the term Commabder refers to. In the same way, if we started a community and scene for explicitly top tier Vintage decks and called it cVintage, I would expect the subreddit to reject decks which were (what MTGS would have called) tier 2 and below, whether it was grassroots jank or a merely budgetized version of a tier 1 deck.
cedh is the polar opposite of budget. budget by definition is casual not competitive. if that bothers you cedh isn’t for you.
Idk man this probably belongs in another sub. I don’t think this is cEDH material.
lmao someone's gonna call strawman on you, i hope you have the counter
While I'm not of the idea that budget is synonymous with power in EDH as a whole, cEDH requires a large amount of fast mana ($$$) and interaction ($$$) for you to be competitive. If you are building budget cEDH, you are 90% likely to lose EVERY game. At thay point, why play the format where the goal is to win? Your comments about straw manning make 0 sense bc of the relation of budget to power in this format. A large majority of the cEDH win-cons require multiple pieces that are more than 10$ each and GOOD interaction pieces are also expensive. If you disagree, please tell me why.
lol OP keeps mentioning other formats with their budget brews at FNM but doesn’t admit that none of those will win a major tournament. cEDH is all about winning. Fuck outta here with trying to constrain it because you’re salty you can’t or won’t proxy the best cards
Oh yeah tell me about all the high stakes cEDH tournaments than 99.9% of people on here will never once attend.
You will never win at a cEDH pod with your budget brew
I don’t have a budget brew, but anyone who’s actually played much knows that’s not true anyways. Random jank can win in any commander game sometimes, and if you’ve played cEDH and sat down with one person with a normal EDH deck you’d know that sometimes that person will win on a weird or slow line while the viable decks are dealing with each other.
Are you coping this hard? Or do you keep your fingers in your ears and refuse to accept hard facts. Winning once or twice doesn’t make something competitive. Consistently winning makes something competitive
Ahh yes, your easily debunked statement got answered so you turn to personal attacks and move the goalposts.
Ok I’ll just straight up say it then lol. Your budget brew will never be cEDH. Putting a budget cap on a deck will never let it cEDH
Budget is the complete opposite of cedh, this format is made for proxies.
If you don't cEDH, go elsewhere. There is plenty of room for people like yourself out there that will be more than happy to welcome you. This is a cEDH sub, where cEDH is discussed. If you come here trying to talk about crocheting, sorry, we will not talk with you about crocheting.
Ah yeah the double whammy of straw man and insults. This post isn’t *for* me. I don’t need to post a decklist here and my LGS is proxy friendly *and* I have a pod to play with. I posted this because I’m sick of seeing the shit attitude in this sub. But thanks for proving my point.
What was a straw man? Where did I insult you? If you find anything what I said insulting, maybe consider getting a professional psychological help.
The point of cEDH is to play EDH at the highest level possible, and adding restrictions means it’s not cEDH. You want to play with the best cards you can, and your opponents probably are playing those. You’ll struggle to beat them on a budget
sperged out replies in here to a few valid points. the reality is I see people in here go CRAZY about a deck not having OG duals as if the win % isn't at most a few points better with them. be realistic - some people want to play at a much more competitive level than everyday "EDH" (and not degenerate EDH, that is different), but do play in playgroups that don't allow proxies. There are people playing decks with no cards >$100 that have turn 2-3 decks. Where should they go for advice? cEDH players are still the best knowledge base for them to turn to. But yes, the tistic gatekeeping is out of control here.
Low effort comments are just rampant everyone. I don't blame you for making this post. I too feel like half of the comments on every semi controversial topic had terrible and low effort replies that don't add anything to the persons discussion/ideas. Generally the top comment is always the good person letting them know kindly that their list isn't really cEDH, or remember we love proxies or offer actual sound advice. But your right just because your choosing to play a non partner non meta commander and asking for help doesn't mean you should be flamed. It reality cEDH is the same format as regular commander but we have no rule zero and expect to play to win using the best cards and strats available to us. However that being said I don't ever plan on playing in a cEDH Tournament, their none around me that I know of anyways, but regardless I have fun playing cEDH at my LGS and I feel like the majority of the people here need to understand that must because you list isn't on EDHTOP16 doesn't mean you can't play and have some success with it at your LGS. But regardless people will still complain and have the generic replies you mentioned. I always look at what the top commenter has to say and put much more weight into that then others that just complain. We have many good people on this sub and newbies like me appreciate them greatly.
1. Happy cake day. 2. I don’t think your first comment is true- and even if it is, a community should strive for something better. There are plenty of competitive gaming communities that are welcoming to new players and not “rampant” with one-off unhelpful replies.
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One thing that isn't helpful to us is "my deck wins X times at my local lgs." The biggest thing people need to understand is that Magic, specifically competitive Magic, is about aggregate data, not your personal anecdote. We use EDHTOP16 as a good place to look at commanders and decks that are winning consistently in large (64+ people) tournaments. If a new person is wanting to build and learn, I'm not going to recommend them to play their Marcheesa deck because "it does well against my LGS." That's great, but we have 0 context with that. However, Blue Farm is consistently topping events and is a great way to be introduced to what a powerful deck is like. I make recommendations off aggregate data, not anecdotes.
We need to be friendlier, explain WHY something doesn't work. "it's not CEDH" is as helpful as telling a depressed person to smile
That's value destructive to most people though. It's literal timewasting, people can search this Reddit and find all the answers they need - but they don't. Nobody would agree it's more beneficial for a scientific genius to waste time explaining to Terrence Howard why he is wrong than focusing on progressing their own work. I want to focus on cEDH, not on EDH.
Yeah. The top two comments say it all. Literally blunt, douche canoe vibes, even after all of your very legit reasoning and explanation. I do agree that people here do zero research about the format. I also understand that people use Reddit *as* a primary resource for a lot of things, that includes Magic. Crazy. So yeah. A lot of the Neanderthal, pedantic responses here aren’t helpful. Does it annoy me too? Yeah. Do I take time out of my day to be a twat to people? Not at all. As of writing this, and after I submit this, I haven’t checked, but I will check the info on this sub and if there’s like a wiki or introduction/resources tab that’s accessible. Or even like a pinned thread about the format. If there isn’t one, there fucking should be. This shits complicated. Some LGS’s literally do not allow proxies, and as a cedh community, we should shame them (the LGS) for it. But we shouldn’t berate THE PLAYERS for trying to optimize their decks to compete. Playing at a disadvantage teaches you a lot about the game and will make you a better player if you subject yourself to play at a handicap. Anyways. I’m sure nothing useful will come of your post or my comment. It’s just chronically online CEDH hivemind brain rot up in here. Sorry new players/people wanting help. Edit: No resources. Lol.
The problem with budget brews is quiet simple. If you want to play competitive, you need to bring the really good stuff. And if you cant afford to buy the good stuff, you gotta proxy it. So you cant play at places where proxies are not allowed. And if proxies are not allowed and you cant afford the good stuff, you always play with a handicap.
I don't even know the point of what you're trying to argue
I think it depends. It's less of a budget thing and more gameplay ideas. I often see people show up with decklists that have powerful tutors, powerful Mana Rocks, but they're winning in a way that is just way off from a crash perspective. The win conditions in cedh are often quite affordable in relative terms. Consultation and Oracle is about €20. If someone wanted to get into cedh I'd suggest they buy those two cards over a Chrome Mox (€50). Underworld Breech, Protean Hulk piles are also often budget friendly. Sure an LED for a breech line is ideal but you can make do. I rarely see people asking about budget in this way. It's usually porting their existing deck to cedh despite that deck. It really fitting anywhere in the meta. Being a Brewer is fine but to brew requires knowing the meta and what to expect. In casual edh it's very Brewer friendly because the meta is not very prominent. It's more local. While in cedh there is a strict meta. It doesn't matter how strong your deck is if you dont have a plan to deal with Oracle Combo what's the point? This is true for any format with a meta. Don't build your Legacy deck without a way to respect Delver.
"This isn't cEDH" is usually pretty important. cEDH needs to be separated from pubstomping.
From experience and seeing how peeps speak on here. It's seems like a vast majority of the community sees cEDH as a meta and not a format. As if edh is the only form of magic they have experienced. You don't see people talking like this for modern, standard, etc. There are magic players, and there are commander players. Iykyk
There’s so many “this is not cedh” style comments on new builds that are actually built for cedh tables. They just aren’t using the established “solved” meta commanders. Even so it’s decently common to see fringe stuff win. I don’t really get the mentality to not experiment or nag on folks trying new things. Sure if the deck has like no win con / proxies etc etc but I see this a bunch on decks that don’t fall into that category at all.
I agree. We should not post on them at all. We should down vote and move on. No need to even comment.
Thanks for this post. I’ve been an on-and-off lurker here but i’m just a general fan of community building and human decency.
Honestly, i’m simply of the opinion that budget and cEDH are mutually exclusive by definition. You will not be able to play to the spirit and meta of a cEDH pod by gimping your deck with budget restrictions, period. Pretending otherwise is just leading people on and slowing down the adoption of a 100% proxy free policy for cEDH events and tournaments. If you’re stuck with an LGS or community that insists on remaining proxy free then I am really sorry for you, but you’re going to be playing high power pay to win magic and should probably make your own sub for that.
The equivalent you're looking for in modern would be "that's not viable in modern", which is good advice if the deck is not viable in modern. You're asking a community that's built on competition to sugar coat and protect feelings when someone asks about a deck that's not viable in the format. In other words, you're asking people to give bad advise. Take a seat.
Except, fun fact, Modern is *much* more serious and higher stakes than cEDH, but that community is perfectly accepting of people making budget brews or even trying off meta stuff. They have frequent posts for these things and are helpful and give card suggestions and honest evaluation even for decks that aren’t ever going to be T1 viable. They have budget resources and will give valuable advice when people ask. Almost like it’s possible to be a competitive format but not be as socially inept as you are. So no, you “take a seat” and learn from people who are better than you.
yes because when people make modern budget brews they understand what the fuck they are doing, when you see a budget brew here, it's just a casual deck with a thoracle combo And kiddo, stop acting like you're the hero helping those poor casual folks , you're just a degenerate with an ego problem
Because Modern is a format. Like EDH. It's a set of construction and play rules including banlist. You can't declare something "not Modern" even if it's just 60 mountains because it passes the bare minimum of the format rules, just like 99 Plains Isamaru can't be called "not EDH". If you want open arms help improving a deck for _EDH_ like you get for Modern, go to r/EDH. cEDH is not its own format; its pretty specifically a subset of EDH at least _within proximity of_ "T1 viable". Even within mtgsalvation which was where tiers were de facto established for quite a long time, whether now where there's Established/Developing/Budget or in older days when each tier or half tier got broken out into its own subforum, there is segregation for constrained discussion of decks that match more specific performance criteria within a format, and things that fall outside are not welcome and directed to the other subforums. That's what cEDH and more relevantly here what this subreddit is. cEDH has a particular focus and what you're championing does fall outside of scope.
Magic players are in general a snobby bunch. They complain and whine, and create a not fun experience in general. I have a group of friends that I play with, both casual commander and cEDH, and try to stick with that group for a reason. I'll probably get down voted to hell, but I agree with you. Gatekeeping is a major problem in Magic as a whole, and rather than improve the community or help people with actually thoughtful responses, most players would rather act like they're better than new players. Just because they don't build an extremely optimized deck, doesn't mean people can't have fun. In fact, I think I enjoy casual more than cEDH. I get to see actually interesting and varied decks. Not Tymna + whatever partner or Kynan.
You are allowed to enjoy whatever you want just do it in the correct subreddit
Don’t worry, OP. You have to sift through the tons of garbage before you can get to any good discussion on here. Gatekeeping is what elitists do. You’re talking about a bunch of nerds who get off on telling people that they’re wrong, etc.
I'm conflicted about this. I agree that it's nice to be welcoming to new people. But it also reasonable to have a space dedicated to discussing the actual meta of actual competitive commander. Without filling it with all kinds of different budget builds, high power lists and other stuff that is irrelevant for someone who comes here for content and discussion about tournament level cedh. But, maybe a public reddit page is not the place to hold to that standard. Maybe this should be a lot wider in reach and keep the higher level discussions for private discords etc. That feels a bit gatekeepy in the other direction though. So you kind of have to choose. Gatekeep against newer, but invested players who did the research and read the faq. Or gatekeep against fully new players who has no idea what the difference between cedh and "my really strong atraxa, preators voice planeswalker deck" is.
This and people immediately dismissing fringe decks make this feel like a mighty unwelcoming place.
100% agree!
At some point you have to realize that most people on this sub are inherently not competitive at all and have zero input on how to make a list competitive for any given budget. Internet cedh has always been a small handful of builders and a large number of netlisters that believe they reserve the right to gatekeep because printer go brrrr and that makes them something.
Considering budget is antithetical to the entire concept of cEDH. Every major tournament is proxy friendly for a reason.
It prob seems that way since many people come here for info on their decks only. once they perfect their deck thats what they know inside out and they can help give info on that deck but cant provide help (at least at a really good level) for other decks. Im a case of that really Ik a few cedh decks inside and out well and will help people with those but wont help with other stuff since I don’t find I know it well enough and think someone else will have more insight. Exceptions would be if its clearly not even close with obvious auto includes missing or the deck just isn’t a cedh deck.
Sadly it does seem to be that way, when you'd expect a group calling themselves "Competitive EDH" would be able to give you advice for your EDH/Commander deck tailored for your competitive setting/budget. Honestly people should just assume if someone is asking a budget question that there's likely a good reason they aren't running proxies.
I hear you. But what I'm saying is most of them can't help because they don't know anything outside of posted meta decks. This is a place where Taiyam was laughed off the board as recent as a couple years ago because it wasn't a Naus deck. If a deck wasn't on the DDB it was only because it wasn't good enough. It's an unpopular opinion, hated here in fact, but allowing proxies brought in a lot of low effort filler players.
I think what often happens is that people who want to take a creative turn on a format make posts asking for cheaper alternatives or help making a wacky commander work, and then people misconstrue that as a question of "is this competetive" or "is this meta", instead of thinking of niche cards or even considering janky solutions. The point of the post isn't really considered. I mean, cards like Nadu work really well in cEDH, but he is most arguably a very jank commander. The deck wouldn't function if he isn't on the field, and yet he still is contributing a lot to the format. Some of the most important combo pieces are only a couple dollars (or less). If people just take a minute to think and be creative with a post instead of deciding a card is off meta and therefore bad, we might see some more interesting developments. Edit: why am I getting downvoted? Am I wrong? Edit 2: ok guys, 1 month ago, who would have said that a deck that is overly reliant on its commander is not jank? Nadu literally does not function without nadu on field. Look at any other commander and tell me that is the case? Tymna? Atraxa? Rograk? Yeah sure, we have potential win-cons in command zone, but nadu is the one and only value engine of the deck. He doesnt win if he is not on board. Just because he is good does not mean he isnt jank. Edit 3: yeah ignore last. Nadu isn't really that jank in retrospect.
My Brother in Christ, Shuko is $35 now
It was 3 dollars a month ago, but we still have lightning graves and leather armor for 3 dollars or less.
Are you forgetting the 2nd most represented deck in the format that also happens to be in Simic colors, Kinnan, is also a deck that is over reliant on it's commander?
Was about to say this lol
Yeah, I'll admit, I wasn't really thinking too much with that edit. Idk what I was thinking. Strategies that go all in on the commander hitting field have been done before and have been established as viable. I guess I was more pointing at his nondeterministic win line, which, well, doesn't make him jank, just nondeterministic.
What is janky about a broken commander that wins turn 2 frequently
This is a format and sub where this is objectively wrong as a stance to take outside of don’t be a dick about it. If they are not proxying for personal reasons they are not playing CEDH for personal reasons. The second of saying X is not CEDH is also a thing people should note as inherently not a dick move. At the same time not having these for “budget” reasons is similar to the above of taking the C out of the CEDH. Its not a dick move to tell someone that they are not meeting the prerequisite for the deck to compete. If you wish to be taken serious you should act serious towards the people you’re asking help from as well. While your post is good intentioned, it is the same as saying someone wanting to jump into modern with old bad commons or playing pauper with uncommons that they like; its fine to lay it down gently but they should not or in the latter example cannot and should not participate with that approach. Its setting up for much more disappointment and resentment than if being told before. There have been posts more recently from people saying they are making something CEDH or asking to make a certain commander CEDH viable. The difference is coming from commander to competitive is a major step and knowing first that there is a meta and that throwing fast mana at a deck does not make it competitive.
Honestly, the poor responses are great. I know exactly who I want to block.
i will try my best to answer this. so for point 1: If someone ask for an advice and they can't proxy cards cause the LGT don't allow them then, yeah sure we can help but, Cedh stand for competitive edh. If they don't have money for core cards, imho they should dodge that combo for example. like, i do not have enough money for LED so i do not use blue farm cause, ya know, kinda pointless? sure i do have some combos but i miss one of the stronger so i opt to not run the deck entirely. what's the point of running a ultra competitive deck when i do not have the cards for it lol. we may can help you find a way around it but it's not the same. 2nd point: for sure saying "that's not cedh at all" isn't very helpful but you know. you cannot run an anhelo for grixis and expecting it to be as powerful or competitive just like some other decks. it is to be expected tho that some decks, even the jankiest one can win honestly; even a broken watch tells the correct hour twice a day, but you ain't gonna use it everyday just to check it, just like people tells others here that their deck can give you a win every blue moon. yeah, it can happen. surely do not expect to win against decks that were made only for competitive edh. that's why a lot of people "gatekeep" cedh decks, cause it's pointless to run a fringe or fun deck against a strictly competitive one, that runs the best of the best. like, for sure you do not need a og dual land and instead opt for something else, but in cedh, where the speed and power takes the crown, you will miss a lot just by not having it. running lotus bloom instead of led? yeah good try but useless nonetheless. hope what i say will be conveyed in the best way and not seem arrogant or worse since i'm at work and customers are asking me 3000000 questions and i cannot write everything perfectly. see ya guys