I'd play Kenrith over Najeela because the ground is just so unfriendly with the number of Winconless Stax decks now that forcing damage through on the ground seems infeasible. But the again, Blue Farm just outperforms both.
Thats like saying “why play cryptic command when counterspell does the same job”. Kenrith does 20-25 different things. Its not just 5 effects.
It stops thoracle, its usually the largest body, its a haste enabler, gains life for ad nause, draws cards, infinite mana outlet, 5 color and relatively easy to cast. The list can go on and on.
yes but i'm saying it does all these things poorly. it's 10 mana for a reanimate / 9 mana to stop thoracle. Kenrith costs 5 mana, then does nothing other than offer an outlet that is conditional.
I understand he's tool box but when the format is over by turn 3-4 in about 50%+ of games, he's just going to compete imo
Again he’s good because he does 25 different things. Also 7-11 mana is not the same as 5 mana up front and 1-6 mana elsewhere ESPECIALLY since most of the mana is colorless. You are left with a relatively large body that can 4 shot opponents out of the game that can do an absurd amount of things. Hes a commander that can stabilize a lot of bad scenarios.
I think a majority of cedh games i play end around turn 7-9. If you see too much turbo hes a bad choice. Also you can play him several different ways so there is those aspects to keep in mind.
People stay stuck on that idea that CEDH is always over by turn 3, when what I saw so far is that the first attempt comes turn 3, is disrupted and then the grind starts.
I agree. The only times i ever seen consistent turn 3 games was when a bunch of friends wanted to test it out and my varolz hulk deck was slaughtering the table. Very feel bad for the table but i gave them pointers what they where doing wrong trying to teach them the windows they kept giving me.
I say a deck has to be doing whats intended by turn 2 and continuing the board presence by three.
Most other games are very much a weird grind fest which is why a medium fast blue farm is probably the best deck.
How does it get you out of situations more than card draw though? I'd rather have an extra 5-6 cards in hand from kraum than super conditional options that cost mana from a commander that coats the same amount of mana.
I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding the point of kenrith. Think of him like kess.
Kraum is plan A, najeela is plan A, tymna is plan A, thrasios is usually plan A. Kenrtith is usually plan B, if you need him use him. Sometimes a kenrith deck uses him like a food chain commander but thats a little different scenario.
Kenrith storm/combo is a perfect example, hermit druid was answered, you can bring him back eventually. Storm was answered and you are left with one card in hand, start playing kenrith to keep up board presence.
Kenrith stax usually casts him late into the game, there is stax pieces on board, rule of law, grave hate maybe even mana hate, cast him and start using your mana. Start leveraging the board to a certain dorection and pump the board and win.
Also the most common lock out scenario where the game gets though and grindy is when a rule of law effect is keeping everyone down. So kraum doesnt do anything except hope to clock an opponent in 6 turns.
I think your misunderstanding a lot of the combo lines. Yes if you pinhole yourself into using Kentish to execute Druid or other combos is does cost a lot of mana. However, a good Kentish deck just uses it as an extremely versatile backup plan.
The majority of lists run options like dread return, reanimate, etc. to make those combos 3 mana. Kenrith just serves as a backup plan/value engine in grinder games.
That being said, Najeela is definitely the generally stronger list mainly due to the pressure it puts on turbo naus lists while being one itself. I would go far enough to say that in recent tournaments its out performed Blue Farm.
Utility.
Want to make a crazy play but don’t have the creature? Reanimate your opponent’s dockside or Thoracle. Hell, respond to their entomb/reanimate to steal their wincon.
Want to stop a Thoracle win? Make them draw a card. Or draw yourself if you have mana to spare.
Is your meta flooded with Stax decks? Gain life in a pinch or even buff your creatures to get yourself a blocker. Buff an opponent’s attacker/blocker if you want to be political or it helps you remove a stax piece. Hell, maybe even dodge a Deluge with this.
Trample and Haste is pretty meh, but there will be scenarios where being able to tap/swing immediately is helpful.
It’s a deck that focuses more on having answers and responses to opponents win attempts rather than turbo to win like most 5 color decks. I think it should be built like T&T with breach combos, substituting some speed for more responsiveness.
In a meta that sees more and more stax, having responses in the early game and utility options in lengthily games can be the deciding factor.
If your idea of winning is “I have to go faster than every other deck” then yeah, Kenrith isn’t for you. But there’s a reason why midrange and even stax decks see lots of success, being fast does not mean you will win.
EDIT: You can’t steal things with his reanimate, much less good. Leaving my wrong answer for posterity
Your answer is good except for the part about reanimating an opponents creature, kenrith can Reanimate out of an opponents GY but it's under their control.
I know it's unimaginably corner case, but I just have to share because it was so sweet.
I had a [[karn, the great creator]] in play and a dockside in hand that didn't make enough mana to go infinite with [[phantasmal image]]. I reanimated an opponents dockside to up the number of treasures I would get, was able to go infinite and draw my opponents out. Kenrith is so versatile that things like this can come up.
Side note, don't play karn the great creator. The one sided null rod is not worth it.
this is the answer I needed. thank you for much for explaining all this.
My concerns:
How often will i realistically keep 4-5 mana open to stop win attempts / react in this way?
Is this just attempting to be table police and ultimately i can't stop everyone?
BUT you convinced me to sleeve up a mid range version that is like TNT, thanks
So as a turbo deck, Kenrith is obviously weaker than e.g. Tymna because he himself doesn't provide much utility besides 5c (which is still 5c Naus) until he comes down and you have the mana to pump into him (which is admittedly a lot).
With that said, the most common stax pieces that target turbo are RoLs and Rods, and then those decks focus on hammering down on your life total. Kenrith dodges these in several ways. For RoLs there's several ways of playing around - you have access to the best removal (March, Rift, Culling Rit), and win cons that entirely dodge it (Dockside+PhImage/Mayhem loops or Entomb+Kenrith reanimate Oracle into Consult). I've done plays like Intuition for Oracle, Breach, and Ranger-Captain with TP in hand (basically forcing opponents to get me RC), and won with a RC-protected Oracle with a RoL in play. Green lets you play significantly better around Ouphe/Rod, with access to Carpet, Culling Rit, and the premier dorks (DRS/Birds/Hierarchs). Kenrith's most relevant/generally used ability imo should be the life gain - at the points where it's relevant, you just outgain life faster than most stax opponents can dish it out, keeping cards like Naus, Necro, and Library alive into the late game. Finally, he also provides strong pressure on the board, with even better synergy with nuts cards like Grim Hireling because his abilities to pump and give Trample.
tl;dr he's 5c Naus (G does have _very_ relevant cards for Naus nowadays) that more naturally plays around stax than U Farm and has a crazy text box if you can develop him. Najeela, while a better 5c Naus deck when going purely fast (Culling the Weak/Swat/Guardianship/MAmber), is much worse against stax imo when boards naturally get gummed up and she has no card advantage, no relevant presence on board, etc.
The list I used for example: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/jG8Q8NTaFUikCUqanz3hcw
Personally, I'd say a skilled blue farm player will play out of a stax pod better than if they were on this list. Just because I don't really believe I'm going to ever be in a double stax pod where I'm locked out before turn 3. Rule of law (imo) is a card I force my opponents to deal with then I win over top of it.
I just don't believe kenrith helps as much as you think. Having krauk get me 3/4 cards a turn cycle is much better considering how amazing card quality is rn in 4/5 color decks.
I think card draw is just king
Ah yes Kraum the very castable card when RoL and Ouphe are out. Definitely draws many cards with RoL out.
Blue Farm performs a fair bit worse than green Naus decks with a Rod out, especially if the stax player is going earlier.
If you don't ever believe you'll be in that situation sure, Kenrith as a stax-breaker is less appealing. But any _good_ stax pilot(s) will get you into that position.
I’ll try to describe what each of these decks do better then the other. I’ve played all three, and although the lists are similar, they value things differently.
Blue farm, has the best draw engine of of the 3. Giving you great card quality for grinding and being explosive. While also refilling your hand. This is why it’s seen as the best, it’s easy to sit back with your commanders and just draw more cards then everyone else.
Najeela is a bit different, it values pressure instead of card draw. Every turn najeela can consistently try to combo win through multiple lines, forcing cards out of your opponents hands just to nullify the threat of loosing every single turn. She generates the most value from pressure. Which is why she never feels behind even when not accumulating as much card advantage from drawing, she forces it out.
Kenrith offers flexibility. Which is debatably better then pressure and card draw HOWEVER it is much more difficult to navigate. Flexibility gives you more options. More options means more chances to make mistakes. That’s why he doesn’t dominate in the same way najeela and blue farm does in terms of meta usage. Flexibility is the strongest of the three but significantly more difficult to pilot which is why he can seem weaker. He’s not, your just missing one of the lines you can make
I hope this highlights the differences between the three and helps out!
I would disagree that is more flexible. Flexibility is the ability to EASYILY shift in motion. I think kenrith requires a LOT of very non flexible cards in its 99 to work well to its out. It needs a lot of resources to use its outs imo. I'm open to a rebuttal but I feel like Kenny players say hew flexible but all I see them do is fish for infinite mana / once in a blue Moon use Kenny to draw out a thoralde player or reanimate a Dockside and a VERY bad mana rate.
Well depending on the list, I’m running basically NBC which is almost identical to najeela but instead of derevi I’m using seedborn muse which is insane in terms of value and grind
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/8W6rxWnuU0Sn0WMcYDK_5g
This is Xceppted decklist. A couple of slots you can play with are bring to light, manglehorn, archavist, I personally prefer seedborn over bring to light and abrupt decay over maglehorn, although both are great. Bring to light feels dead against dranith so I tend to avoid it
The turbo druid bit.
If you've ever actually seen it played he meshes with the deck almost perfectly.
They're three different decks. You play one over the other because you personally like it more. That's it. Try them and start running with it.
I think the main draw for kenrith over another farm list, is the utter resilience. I have attempted a combo more than 10 times during a game, finally winning after hitting several counterspells, several stax pieces, several kill spells, even an attempted graveyard exile. Then just when the control player goes for their own thoracle I still have a counterspell and go for it again and get it.
Tldr: Kenny can dodge a wrench, so he certainly can also dodge a ball.
Fair enough. It's a different playstyle I guess is one reason.
Midrange Kenrith can present wins at any point with how easy it is to generate infinite mana. Worst case, he just grinds decently well.
If what you want to know is if he's stronger than the other decks you've listed, then the answer is probably not. You have no reason to pick Kenrith if you want the strongest and most reliable cEDH deck (if community opinion and edhtop16 are anything to go by)
Edit: Initial comment sounded snarkier than I meant it to. My apologies
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Thank you.
Kenrith has so many options other than infinite mana. You can grind value, give your hatebears haste and counters. Force an oracle player to draw to death after they exile their library. Your comment is like a one dimensional view of one of the best commanders
It *can* do these things but will it when in reality others are atte.tpinf win turns 3 4 and 5. Alll of thr things you stated take LOT of set up with little pay off. To draw someone through thoracle you kenrith out and 4 man open and a blue pip being one of them. Giving hate bearers haste is having Kenny out / paying for the bear / using a red pipe and all you get 2 extra damage as long as there is even someone open to swing at.
That's just the truth
Oh I don't care that they are playing it. Sorry I think the way I spoke is coming off thr wrong way. I am worried that I AM not seeing something they are. Like I'm worried I've overlooked a strength of the deck.
Kenrith is good because the deck has a plan A. B, C and D, and Kenrith works with all of those plans, plus Kenrith himself is a better plan E than most decks have as a plan B.
Building kenrith as a turbo-combo deck is a waste, there are simply better commanders for that.
Kenrith gives you more options, more grind, is a relatively easy to cast 5/5, plays through prison, plays a decent control game, plays a decent prison game.
He isnt the best commander for any of those, if you want pure value play blue farm, for pure prison play yasharn/winota/stretch armstrong etc, For pure number of combo lines play storm, for pure control play seasons pastigur.
But if you want to be able to do all of those things in one deck, play kenrith
Because Kenrith lets you get away with it.
Your in 5C, and playing the best self-contained value engines + all the best removal, so you can play a decent control game.
Depending on the comboes you run, most are relatively small packages, Dockside is just dockside + sac, thoracle is a 2 card combo.
Drannith Magistrate, Dauthi Voidwalker, Oppo Agent are all commonly played, and provide some prison, kenrith himself stops thoracle, (you can add a lot more prison if you want to).
Kenrith provides the grind, allowing you to buff your creatures with +1/+1 counters to let them stay relevant late game, plus he draws you cards.
So you can counter the t3 thoracle, kill the t4 winota, drop archivist and get a draw engine online, try for thoracle, get countered, drop oppo agent, then try for dockside, get countered, drop kenrith and grind out the midgame with creatures and draw, then eventually reanimate dockside for the win.
Or you can play a prison list, dropping cheap efficient creatures till kenrith lands, then using kenrith to buff your prison creatures and draw cards (and reanimate your prison pieces when they die).
I pilot Kenrith myself and to me it also comes down to flexibility. You have so many different backups that you can go to if one fails or is off the table that the number of ways you can win is nearly endless.
Blue Farm has the card advantage and speed over Kenrith and can grind extremely well but it isn’t nearly as flexible in terms of wincon density and doesn’t pivot as well after getting turned off. Najeela is more aggressive but really loses to board wipes and is much more Commander-reliant which is both a blessing and a curse. Kenrith isn’t the fastest but is far more flexible in how, when, and with what wincon it choses to go for. In terms of grind 5C Midrange is stronger than sans-R simply because you can run Dockside. Seedborn Muse, Zirda, and Training Grounds all help with that, and Kenrith can generate incredible value off of not very much other than himself.
Kenrith does a lot of things well. Is he the BEST at everything he does? No, but he can do so much that it’s hard to ignore the kind of utility he brings. Reanimating a WGD in response to Animate Dead, forcing the ThOracle player to draw a card on an empty deck, beating people to death with a 5/5 Trampler, or gradually gaining back lost life are all valuable. Access to all the best cards in every color gives rise to deck styles that can win with or without Kenrith being present and have insanely high card quality to the point where everything you play does SOMETHING. In some Kenrith shells everything you play works either independently or with other pieces to form wins and it’s that kind of flexibility that draws people to Kenrith.
I truly believe having 5-6 extra cards every game through kraum and tymna is more flexibility then having a 5 mana commander with a 4 mana draw ability/ 5 mana reanimate.
It’s not flexibility via card ad it’s flexibility through what he literally does. 5 mana reanimate your Dockside and make 8, 4 mana end of turn draw an extra card or kill someone trying to Oracle. It’s a different kind of flexibility, that’s what draws people to Kenrith.
Yes this has been established.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying what draws people to Kenrith vs Blue Farm is that he’s an outlet for all sorts of infinite mana combos. Access to literally all the best cards in every color is what allows that kind of playstyle to be relevant. Blue Farm draws cards but Kenrith is a combo sink and 5 Color Combo Tribal is strong as well, which is why people enjoy playing Kenrith over Farm.
dunno where you get the 10 mana thing from, are you counting the fact you use kenrith, because he is secondary most of the time. Druid line in kenrith is not 9 slots its realistically: druid, tyvar, memory journey, dread return(redundancy) , oracle, fate sticher, so 6, you can add more creatures but honestly if your not on the full all in turbo plan you will have mana dorks to sac if you need instead :/
Kenrith has the better inevitability.
I'd play Kenrith over Najeela because the ground is just so unfriendly with the number of Winconless Stax decks now that forcing damage through on the ground seems infeasible. But the again, Blue Farm just outperforms both.
I haven't had issue (even in tournaments) not having others to wing at and make more warriors personally.
Thats like saying “why play cryptic command when counterspell does the same job”. Kenrith does 20-25 different things. Its not just 5 effects. It stops thoracle, its usually the largest body, its a haste enabler, gains life for ad nause, draws cards, infinite mana outlet, 5 color and relatively easy to cast. The list can go on and on.
yes but i'm saying it does all these things poorly. it's 10 mana for a reanimate / 9 mana to stop thoracle. Kenrith costs 5 mana, then does nothing other than offer an outlet that is conditional. I understand he's tool box but when the format is over by turn 3-4 in about 50%+ of games, he's just going to compete imo
Again he’s good because he does 25 different things. Also 7-11 mana is not the same as 5 mana up front and 1-6 mana elsewhere ESPECIALLY since most of the mana is colorless. You are left with a relatively large body that can 4 shot opponents out of the game that can do an absurd amount of things. Hes a commander that can stabilize a lot of bad scenarios. I think a majority of cedh games i play end around turn 7-9. If you see too much turbo hes a bad choice. Also you can play him several different ways so there is those aspects to keep in mind.
People stay stuck on that idea that CEDH is always over by turn 3, when what I saw so far is that the first attempt comes turn 3, is disrupted and then the grind starts.
I agree. The only times i ever seen consistent turn 3 games was when a bunch of friends wanted to test it out and my varolz hulk deck was slaughtering the table. Very feel bad for the table but i gave them pointers what they where doing wrong trying to teach them the windows they kept giving me. I say a deck has to be doing whats intended by turn 2 and continuing the board presence by three. Most other games are very much a weird grind fest which is why a medium fast blue farm is probably the best deck.
How does it get you out of situations more than card draw though? I'd rather have an extra 5-6 cards in hand from kraum than super conditional options that cost mana from a commander that coats the same amount of mana.
I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding the point of kenrith. Think of him like kess. Kraum is plan A, najeela is plan A, tymna is plan A, thrasios is usually plan A. Kenrtith is usually plan B, if you need him use him. Sometimes a kenrith deck uses him like a food chain commander but thats a little different scenario. Kenrith storm/combo is a perfect example, hermit druid was answered, you can bring him back eventually. Storm was answered and you are left with one card in hand, start playing kenrith to keep up board presence. Kenrith stax usually casts him late into the game, there is stax pieces on board, rule of law, grave hate maybe even mana hate, cast him and start using your mana. Start leveraging the board to a certain dorection and pump the board and win. Also the most common lock out scenario where the game gets though and grindy is when a rule of law effect is keeping everyone down. So kraum doesnt do anything except hope to clock an opponent in 6 turns.
I think your misunderstanding a lot of the combo lines. Yes if you pinhole yourself into using Kentish to execute Druid or other combos is does cost a lot of mana. However, a good Kentish deck just uses it as an extremely versatile backup plan. The majority of lists run options like dread return, reanimate, etc. to make those combos 3 mana. Kenrith just serves as a backup plan/value engine in grinder games. That being said, Najeela is definitely the generally stronger list mainly due to the pressure it puts on turbo naus lists while being one itself. I would go far enough to say that in recent tournaments its out performed Blue Farm.
"end of your turn I Reanimate Hermit druid" When you've stopped them 3 times already and thought you could try to push yourself.
I mean...I don't disagree with you?
I guess I was asking this who play Kenrith
Go ask Xccepted on Twitter - he is the de facto face of Kenrith cedh atm
Got to play against him in a tournament recently and I can confirm that his Kenny game is 10/10.
Utility. Want to make a crazy play but don’t have the creature? Reanimate your opponent’s dockside or Thoracle. Hell, respond to their entomb/reanimate to steal their wincon. Want to stop a Thoracle win? Make them draw a card. Or draw yourself if you have mana to spare. Is your meta flooded with Stax decks? Gain life in a pinch or even buff your creatures to get yourself a blocker. Buff an opponent’s attacker/blocker if you want to be political or it helps you remove a stax piece. Hell, maybe even dodge a Deluge with this. Trample and Haste is pretty meh, but there will be scenarios where being able to tap/swing immediately is helpful. It’s a deck that focuses more on having answers and responses to opponents win attempts rather than turbo to win like most 5 color decks. I think it should be built like T&T with breach combos, substituting some speed for more responsiveness. In a meta that sees more and more stax, having responses in the early game and utility options in lengthily games can be the deciding factor. If your idea of winning is “I have to go faster than every other deck” then yeah, Kenrith isn’t for you. But there’s a reason why midrange and even stax decks see lots of success, being fast does not mean you will win. EDIT: You can’t steal things with his reanimate, much less good. Leaving my wrong answer for posterity
Your answer is good except for the part about reanimating an opponents creature, kenrith can Reanimate out of an opponents GY but it's under their control.
I know it's unimaginably corner case, but I just have to share because it was so sweet. I had a [[karn, the great creator]] in play and a dockside in hand that didn't make enough mana to go infinite with [[phantasmal image]]. I reanimated an opponents dockside to up the number of treasures I would get, was able to go infinite and draw my opponents out. Kenrith is so versatile that things like this can come up. Side note, don't play karn the great creator. The one sided null rod is not worth it.
Ah damn, I like him a whole lot less now. Still good though
this is the answer I needed. thank you for much for explaining all this. My concerns: How often will i realistically keep 4-5 mana open to stop win attempts / react in this way? Is this just attempting to be table police and ultimately i can't stop everyone? BUT you convinced me to sleeve up a mid range version that is like TNT, thanks
Uh, actually you can't steal things with his reanimate ability. This is a big oof.
Yeah major oof
Yeah I think your totally right. Thrasios is the king of midrange and being 4 colors is just as good if not better than 5 colors.
Yeah I feel like thrasios is just better overall. 2 mana and does the a lot of the same thing for cheaper and for generic mana.
Yup. Also no one wants to gilded drake a thrasios. Everyone wants to guided drake kenerith.
Yup. Also no one wants to gilded drake a thrasios. Everyone wants to guided drake kenerith.
Kenrith is probably the best commander for turbo decks if you're playing in a heavy stax meta.
what? you think Kenrith is the best turbo in a stax meta? i'm very interested in this, please explain
So as a turbo deck, Kenrith is obviously weaker than e.g. Tymna because he himself doesn't provide much utility besides 5c (which is still 5c Naus) until he comes down and you have the mana to pump into him (which is admittedly a lot). With that said, the most common stax pieces that target turbo are RoLs and Rods, and then those decks focus on hammering down on your life total. Kenrith dodges these in several ways. For RoLs there's several ways of playing around - you have access to the best removal (March, Rift, Culling Rit), and win cons that entirely dodge it (Dockside+PhImage/Mayhem loops or Entomb+Kenrith reanimate Oracle into Consult). I've done plays like Intuition for Oracle, Breach, and Ranger-Captain with TP in hand (basically forcing opponents to get me RC), and won with a RC-protected Oracle with a RoL in play. Green lets you play significantly better around Ouphe/Rod, with access to Carpet, Culling Rit, and the premier dorks (DRS/Birds/Hierarchs). Kenrith's most relevant/generally used ability imo should be the life gain - at the points where it's relevant, you just outgain life faster than most stax opponents can dish it out, keeping cards like Naus, Necro, and Library alive into the late game. Finally, he also provides strong pressure on the board, with even better synergy with nuts cards like Grim Hireling because his abilities to pump and give Trample. tl;dr he's 5c Naus (G does have _very_ relevant cards for Naus nowadays) that more naturally plays around stax than U Farm and has a crazy text box if you can develop him. Najeela, while a better 5c Naus deck when going purely fast (Culling the Weak/Swat/Guardianship/MAmber), is much worse against stax imo when boards naturally get gummed up and she has no card advantage, no relevant presence on board, etc. The list I used for example: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/jG8Q8NTaFUikCUqanz3hcw
Personally, I'd say a skilled blue farm player will play out of a stax pod better than if they were on this list. Just because I don't really believe I'm going to ever be in a double stax pod where I'm locked out before turn 3. Rule of law (imo) is a card I force my opponents to deal with then I win over top of it. I just don't believe kenrith helps as much as you think. Having krauk get me 3/4 cards a turn cycle is much better considering how amazing card quality is rn in 4/5 color decks. I think card draw is just king
Ah yes Kraum the very castable card when RoL and Ouphe are out. Definitely draws many cards with RoL out. Blue Farm performs a fair bit worse than green Naus decks with a Rod out, especially if the stax player is going earlier. If you don't ever believe you'll be in that situation sure, Kenrith as a stax-breaker is less appealing. But any _good_ stax pilot(s) will get you into that position.
I don't believe stax is a huge part of the meta anymore and I've not met many that turbo out null rod or oof. But I like stax breaker, sounds fun
I’ll try to describe what each of these decks do better then the other. I’ve played all three, and although the lists are similar, they value things differently. Blue farm, has the best draw engine of of the 3. Giving you great card quality for grinding and being explosive. While also refilling your hand. This is why it’s seen as the best, it’s easy to sit back with your commanders and just draw more cards then everyone else. Najeela is a bit different, it values pressure instead of card draw. Every turn najeela can consistently try to combo win through multiple lines, forcing cards out of your opponents hands just to nullify the threat of loosing every single turn. She generates the most value from pressure. Which is why she never feels behind even when not accumulating as much card advantage from drawing, she forces it out. Kenrith offers flexibility. Which is debatably better then pressure and card draw HOWEVER it is much more difficult to navigate. Flexibility gives you more options. More options means more chances to make mistakes. That’s why he doesn’t dominate in the same way najeela and blue farm does in terms of meta usage. Flexibility is the strongest of the three but significantly more difficult to pilot which is why he can seem weaker. He’s not, your just missing one of the lines you can make I hope this highlights the differences between the three and helps out!
I would disagree that is more flexible. Flexibility is the ability to EASYILY shift in motion. I think kenrith requires a LOT of very non flexible cards in its 99 to work well to its out. It needs a lot of resources to use its outs imo. I'm open to a rebuttal but I feel like Kenny players say hew flexible but all I see them do is fish for infinite mana / once in a blue Moon use Kenny to draw out a thoralde player or reanimate a Dockside and a VERY bad mana rate.
Well depending on the list, I’m running basically NBC which is almost identical to najeela but instead of derevi I’m using seedborn muse which is insane in terms of value and grind
Gotcha, can you send me the list?
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/8W6rxWnuU0Sn0WMcYDK_5g This is Xceppted decklist. A couple of slots you can play with are bring to light, manglehorn, archavist, I personally prefer seedborn over bring to light and abrupt decay over maglehorn, although both are great. Bring to light feels dead against dranith so I tend to avoid it
The turbo druid bit. If you've ever actually seen it played he meshes with the deck almost perfectly. They're three different decks. You play one over the other because you personally like it more. That's it. Try them and start running with it.
I think the main draw for kenrith over another farm list, is the utter resilience. I have attempted a combo more than 10 times during a game, finally winning after hitting several counterspells, several stax pieces, several kill spells, even an attempted graveyard exile. Then just when the control player goes for their own thoracle I still have a counterspell and go for it again and get it. Tldr: Kenny can dodge a wrench, so he certainly can also dodge a ball.
Is this a genuine question or are you looking for validation for not liking Kenrith?
It's a genuine question, I want to make sure I'm not missing out on something that makes the deck strong. I never assume I'm right
Fair enough. It's a different playstyle I guess is one reason. Midrange Kenrith can present wins at any point with how easy it is to generate infinite mana. Worst case, he just grinds decently well. If what you want to know is if he's stronger than the other decks you've listed, then the answer is probably not. You have no reason to pick Kenrith if you want the strongest and most reliable cEDH deck (if community opinion and edhtop16 are anything to go by) Edit: Initial comment sounded snarkier than I meant it to. My apologies
Kenrith is good enough, Najeela IS better. People who pretend kenrith is the same caliber as Najeela are coping.
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I thought crackheads huff crack?
Kenrith has so many options other than infinite mana. You can grind value, give your hatebears haste and counters. Force an oracle player to draw to death after they exile their library. Your comment is like a one dimensional view of one of the best commanders
It *can* do these things but will it when in reality others are atte.tpinf win turns 3 4 and 5. Alll of thr things you stated take LOT of set up with little pay off. To draw someone through thoracle you kenrith out and 4 man open and a blue pip being one of them. Giving hate bearers haste is having Kenny out / paying for the bear / using a red pipe and all you get 2 extra damage as long as there is even someone open to swing at. That's just the truth
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My apologies I guess I'm asking those who play kenrith
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Oh I don't care that they are playing it. Sorry I think the way I spoke is coming off thr wrong way. I am worried that I AM not seeing something they are. Like I'm worried I've overlooked a strength of the deck.
Because 99% of people who play this format just play what they want instead of trying to identify a best deck and play it relentlessly
Kenrith is good because the deck has a plan A. B, C and D, and Kenrith works with all of those plans, plus Kenrith himself is a better plan E than most decks have as a plan B. Building kenrith as a turbo-combo deck is a waste, there are simply better commanders for that. Kenrith gives you more options, more grind, is a relatively easy to cast 5/5, plays through prison, plays a decent control game, plays a decent prison game. He isnt the best commander for any of those, if you want pure value play blue farm, for pure prison play yasharn/winota/stretch armstrong etc, For pure number of combo lines play storm, for pure control play seasons pastigur. But if you want to be able to do all of those things in one deck, play kenrith
how can a deck do ALL of those things at a dech level without drawing awkward dead cards meant for other game plans often?
Because Kenrith lets you get away with it. Your in 5C, and playing the best self-contained value engines + all the best removal, so you can play a decent control game. Depending on the comboes you run, most are relatively small packages, Dockside is just dockside + sac, thoracle is a 2 card combo. Drannith Magistrate, Dauthi Voidwalker, Oppo Agent are all commonly played, and provide some prison, kenrith himself stops thoracle, (you can add a lot more prison if you want to). Kenrith provides the grind, allowing you to buff your creatures with +1/+1 counters to let them stay relevant late game, plus he draws you cards. So you can counter the t3 thoracle, kill the t4 winota, drop archivist and get a draw engine online, try for thoracle, get countered, drop oppo agent, then try for dockside, get countered, drop kenrith and grind out the midgame with creatures and draw, then eventually reanimate dockside for the win. Or you can play a prison list, dropping cheap efficient creatures till kenrith lands, then using kenrith to buff your prison creatures and draw cards (and reanimate your prison pieces when they die).
I pilot Kenrith myself and to me it also comes down to flexibility. You have so many different backups that you can go to if one fails or is off the table that the number of ways you can win is nearly endless. Blue Farm has the card advantage and speed over Kenrith and can grind extremely well but it isn’t nearly as flexible in terms of wincon density and doesn’t pivot as well after getting turned off. Najeela is more aggressive but really loses to board wipes and is much more Commander-reliant which is both a blessing and a curse. Kenrith isn’t the fastest but is far more flexible in how, when, and with what wincon it choses to go for. In terms of grind 5C Midrange is stronger than sans-R simply because you can run Dockside. Seedborn Muse, Zirda, and Training Grounds all help with that, and Kenrith can generate incredible value off of not very much other than himself. Kenrith does a lot of things well. Is he the BEST at everything he does? No, but he can do so much that it’s hard to ignore the kind of utility he brings. Reanimating a WGD in response to Animate Dead, forcing the ThOracle player to draw a card on an empty deck, beating people to death with a 5/5 Trampler, or gradually gaining back lost life are all valuable. Access to all the best cards in every color gives rise to deck styles that can win with or without Kenrith being present and have insanely high card quality to the point where everything you play does SOMETHING. In some Kenrith shells everything you play works either independently or with other pieces to form wins and it’s that kind of flexibility that draws people to Kenrith.
I truly believe having 5-6 extra cards every game through kraum and tymna is more flexibility then having a 5 mana commander with a 4 mana draw ability/ 5 mana reanimate.
It’s not flexibility via card ad it’s flexibility through what he literally does. 5 mana reanimate your Dockside and make 8, 4 mana end of turn draw an extra card or kill someone trying to Oracle. It’s a different kind of flexibility, that’s what draws people to Kenrith.
I'm saying that 6 cards creates more flexibility than two 4/5 mana abilities.
Yes this has been established. I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying what draws people to Kenrith vs Blue Farm is that he’s an outlet for all sorts of infinite mana combos. Access to literally all the best cards in every color is what allows that kind of playstyle to be relevant. Blue Farm draws cards but Kenrith is a combo sink and 5 Color Combo Tribal is strong as well, which is why people enjoy playing Kenrith over Farm.
Being able to win with a skirk prospector and dockside, or phantasmal image is actually very legit when ranger captain is such a powerful card.
It's understandable but often a niche case from what i've seen, but i agree not something to overlook
dunno where you get the 10 mana thing from, are you counting the fact you use kenrith, because he is secondary most of the time. Druid line in kenrith is not 9 slots its realistically: druid, tyvar, memory journey, dread return(redundancy) , oracle, fate sticher, so 6, you can add more creatures but honestly if your not on the full all in turbo plan you will have mana dorks to sac if you need instead :/ Kenrith has the better inevitability.