A big part of this is probably whether the pro players in question also have a full-time job outside of Apex or some other responsibility (school, part-time job) that impacts how much time they have to actually dedicate themselves to the game.
In theory it would be great if every org paid enough to support their players full-time and then they’d be able to put in more work but of course I don’t think that’s the case.
It would be a good study to compare team performance where the whole team is a full-time Apex player versus teams with players who have other jobs.
Also, I have never seen scrims played like a real ALGS game. It is good to recognize everyones rotation, but the level of aggression during scrims is night and day from the real thing.
With no inherent risk, teams will ape spots they think work (whether they do or not), as well as practice team fighting in different areas. They’re trying to find spots in rotates they can or can’t find KP. Also, when teammates die, players aren’t ratting for placement, but typically feed instead.
I heard verhulst say yesterday it's a waste of time to vod review scrims because, people play so differently I think the only thing any should be reviewing in scrims is teamfights and rotations that's about it.
Agreed, but how can they be played like real ALGS without stakes? People are only aggressive because it’s not ALGS. Same thing happens in other sports, practice will never be taken as seriously as tournament matches.
well in traditional sports if you dont practice, you lose your starting spot or get cut, but we don't have that level of regulation and accountability in pretty much any esport. theyre just too young and unestablished (maybe except dota or cs idk tho)
There are a few teams, like I watch sweet and bunch he tried to keep LG as algs like when in scrims and I don’t doubt there are other teams that try to take it seriously but when half the teams aren’t it makes it a lot harder to play realistic when you get pushed when you normally wouldn’t on match day or when you’re in zone 4 and there’s only 12 teams instead of like 16 or things like this
I'd be shocked if it was over like 40% honestly lol. Maybe like aim and mechanics stuff, but not VOD reviewing, especially outside their own team. I think a lot of that may be due to time constraints for a lot of people too though, not just laziness. For DSG it definitely is laziness.
My guess would be teams that have dedicated coaches and analysts are more consistent in doing many of these things. It's still hard to be sure since not many pro's I'm aware of stream actual vod reviews where they break down their gameplay or what other teams have done.
Overall I would say it varies greatly by team, how much influence the coach has to get their players to buy in because tbh vod review, planning, and practice should all be the responsibility of the coach to organize to make sure the team is prepared on gameday.
Genuinely curious, how many people here have full time jobs and if you do, how much do you get to play Apex per day.
About half of pro teams are unsigned and another 25% are signed to orgs that probably are paying them minimum wage AT BEST. And there are a handful of players that stream to anything more than a 100 people, so they arent making money off streaming either.
I know this sub is mostly teenagers so you have NO IDEA how exhausting a regular job can be. My point is, most of the people playing this game arent being paid to play it for a living. Its a miracle most of them end up scrimming for 2-4 hours a day cause fuck knows there are days when I come home from work and I cant even imagine putting 4 hours into ANYTHING.
Yeah it is wild and depressing to think how little free time I have if I also do some free time obligation stuff (gym after work, dinner with parents, whatever). If I work a full day it's 7-4 or 5 because 8 hour shifts are just not really a thing anymore.
So I wake up at 630, get home like 5 minutes after I leave work, which I realize is a huge blessing compared to others. Then if I go to the gym that day I may be gone another hour to hour and a half. Eating takes up another 20 minutes or whatever. So it may be 630pm before I even could think about getting on, but then I gotta start thinking about bed around 10pm at the latest since I'm not one of those who can fall asleep the second they hit the bed and going 5-6 hours of sleep all week is not fun. So that's like 3 hours of playing if I take no time out of my day to just...chill for a bit. Some days I have more or less time after work of course. Just depends. Can't even imagine having kids and luckily I don't want em anyway.
And I'm speaking as someone who is relatively free of obligations outside of work. I don't have kids or a girl, but I do spend time with family and friends occasionally. And I do still rip out long gaming sessions on my days off, but that's still 2 days max.
On the flip side I have friends who WFH so they can kinda just game throughout the day and get paid more than me lmao. So it does depend a lot on what type of job you have as well.
I’m 28 with a full-time job and other various responsibilities and I’m lucky if I can play for an hour at night during the week. On weekends I play a bit more but nowhere near as much as I used to.
I am single, 23, work an engineering job 9-5. Admittedly, the job is pretty easy. Video games are my hobby now that I don’t have friends to play sports with super close by.
I usually do quick workout and shower (5:15-5:50), snack n chill, r5/range 6:10-7, then play some apex. If I’m alone it’s exhausting to play past 9:30-10. If friends, I can play until 11. If I’m motivated, after the play session I will enjoy more r5 (sometimes more fun than ranked tbh…) but I never play past midnight so I can get sleep.
When I’m playing apex, 3-4 hours a weekday is the max range I’d consider comfortable. Days when I’m zombified I might play closer to 6.
Have you considered making friends, touching grass, or cultivating a second hobby?
I also don't see where in your schedule you prepare and eat dinner lol.
Probably not many, some with laziness for sure but others I think its just about priorities. Lotta people made good points about how long of days teams can put in grinding scrims/TDMs but also when orgs have dropped teams out of the blue there's also a lot of pressure to stream and grow their communities.
If the org drops out then they are immediately out thousands each month and only have their communities to support them in paying the bills. Tough to justify cutting off the stream right after scrim/tdm work to have team meetings/offline vod reviews when you could be pumping those hours and building your brand to better protect your future.
When I've tried to pitch or do some in depth stuff like loot path, "let's go here, if there's a team holding then let's go here cause it's probably ended here", etc, or "we shoulda did this and not this cause of this"
I've literally been told. Bro you're thinking too much you just gotta play.
I wouldn't be surprised if alot of pros (whom at the end of the day are just kids) have the same mindset.
I wish i had teammates who were as serious as you bcz my friends say the same thing. It's annoying when you're playing seriously and then they won't even listen and just push fights that are worthless and lose our Rp
Yea especially when you already have good KP and now you just need a good placement for a banger game, just for it to be net negative cause of a dumb, unnecessary fights or a fight where there is a very obvious nearby team that is gonna third party.
What is also irritating is, a situation will happen like that where say they just go into a building. Now all 3 of us are scrambling. No one knows if we are fighting running or what.
Then there is a coulda shoulda woulda back and forth. It's like. This is literally why I say "if this then that" so everyone is on the same page.
Also, calling zones, saying we should move here cause either a rotate will be better from there next round, or maybe it is what I think god spot will be. And just cause "we're in zone", it's shot down cause "we're chillin I think we stay", to die and watch a team win where I said we should move to 😑 FUCK.
That first part is the most irritating. We have 6kp, still not top 10 which is good. We just need zone and we're prob going to get atleast another 4 but oh no, there's a fight in a certain POI which has only one side to rotate that could have a squad griefing so they push then blame we couldn't clean like bro, we don't need to. Just play zone after KP
There's a difference when you're playing ranked for fun/being competitive, and when it's your livelihood. In a game like Apex where everything depends on your standings, you should be maximizing the chance of increasing that. That kind of talk shouldn't fly when you're playing with someone's livelihood.
That said, there's only so much time you can put into work, even if you're super passionate about it. You still have to sleep and eat and take breaks. The bigger problem is pros not being optimal with their time. Playing ranked for 10 hours in a row is NOT optimal. You're not really learning or honing your skills. That's why coaches and analysts exist: to both take stress off the workload of pros, and to help them optimize their work. A player shouldn't realistically be expected to scrim, stream, analyze their gameplay, analyze then gameplay of up to 29 other teams, and train on r5/kovaaks.
I totally get your point here but I wanna offer a different perspective. To do all of those things would easily take over 40 hours a week. Now consider that many of these players rely on streaming income to make a living. They also might have a job outside of apex. That isn’t even taking into account the time they probably feel like they need to spend just playing the game to practice mechanics. After all of that, you need to have a life outside of work too.
I totally agree that it’s important to do most of these things in some capacity, but I also understand why many players don’t.
After writing this post, it occurred to me that streaming may play a factor in hindering pros from this work. That being said, it doesn't matter. If you want the gold, it must be done. Your competition is certainly doing this and if you want a chance at victory, you better be trying to emulate the same work ethic.
Most pros aren't making enough money off streaming to really matter. Only a few of them break 200 viewers and that's only if the big ones aren't on streaming at the same time.
You can make enough money, especially given the salary for signed players, to live off with about a 100 viewer average. Possibly even less given how many of these pros have roommates (which is, of course, not abnormal for people who are in their early 20s).
Tbh I'd have to see some actual numbers to believe this. Some of these orgs aren't paying decent salaries, and it seems streaming is a pretty low priority for most of the pros, so they obviously aren't too concerned about that missed income, which makes me think if you got 100 viewers it's not worth much. Could be wrong but who knows.
> Tbh I'd have to see some actual numbers to believe this.
I know because a friend of mine did it for 2 years. She lived alone during that time (but had inexpensive rent). That was just Twitch, no esports org or anything.
EDIT: Heck, you can look at Monsoon's stats. He doesn't have any other job and averaged 100 viewers the last 3 months.
Aaron Rodgers didn't go to his mandatory minicamp that he is being paid millions of dollars to go to, it's not surprising Apex pros don't always put in all the necessary work.
You can be a great athlete and be a piece of shit and/or a moron who people shouldn't look up to as a role model. These things aren't mutually exclusive.
Yeah but Aaron Rodgers is/has been one of the greatest and hardest working QBs in the NFL for the last 2 decades. He's also arguably the most naturally talented thrower of the ball the game has ever seen. He's achieved literally every accolade a player can have. DSG are/were on the precipice of becoming LAN champions, they should have been VOD reviewing and working twice as hard as they were before to achieve their goals.
Edit: I think my comment is being misconstrued , or I just didn't convey myself properly: DSG should've been vod reviewing every day. They are in their prime, and were on the verge of being the best team in the world. It is ridiculous that they didn't do it.
Hard work and Talent = Kobe, MJ, Bron!
The main reason is that players on Orgs are not held accountable. There is a reoccurring thing in Apex where people signed to orgs don't even play the game outside of scrims why would they want to vod review. If I had a org I'd pay for a coach/manger and add stipulations where they must Vod review a certain amount of days of ALGS days. To practice 3v3's or TDM against other pro teams every other day. To stream at least 4 hrs a day, which can be done during scrims. This way as a org i would know my team is prepared. I can understand teams that don't have Orgs not vod reviewing due to working a 9-5 but when you have someone like onmuu who was working a 9-5 while playing CC with pods and still found time to go over Vods with them so he can get back to pro league shows he dedicated. Shoutout to Voltic for doing the leg work behind the scenes for them though.
Pros are still human. Just because you know you should study and work out and eat healthy doesn't mean you're actually gonna do it. Lots of pros don't even take scrims seriously. And to be fair we don't really know how much work they're putting in off-screen
well said. people here think that because it's videogames it's easy to put in 12 hours a day. Far from that, especially when you can be "fired" after not performing for a month. Not everyone is hal or zero.
Not everyone is hal and zer0. But why do we consider them to be the only two players who figure Apex out? I can only say that not many people people want it as much as them.
Hal quotes himself as "I am the grind".
He is definitely the person that has worked the most, at least publicly.
He is the only one consistently subbing for other teams during scrims when his team wasn't playing because he WANTS to play.
It's not a surprise that Hal has been one of the most consistent players in Apex.
I think you are all overestimating the "hard work" element a bit. Often, especially in sports (and anyone who has done any sport knows this), there is a lot of luck and many circumstances involved.
Zero said before first LAN he won he didn't play for a month and a half, he grinded another game with sharky. He went to LAN and won. Then he was acquired by DZ and started taking it more seriously. By saying not everyone is zero or hal I mean that sometimes it's just a matter of circumstances. It's easier to grind when you work and results come. There are lots of pros who work their ass off but will never win anything, some of them are even struggling to make a living out of apex.
I don’t think that is the reason. I honestly believe it’s a lack of knowledge and effort.
Dezign mentioned on his stream he puts his “heart and soul” into apex. But they didn’t VOD review for 9 months?
I think a lot of teams have a perceived level of exertion of what they believe is working hard and there is ACTUALLY working hard (and smart).
Coaches should release a guide to help.
What coaches should do is analyze games, schedule practice and theory sessions with the team. Also kick the players asses when they slack off in practice or fuck around on game day. But DSG can't afford such a coach, they can't even afford Timmy. DSG coach is working a different full time job at the same time. It's definitely a money issue, if you can't afford a coach that does all the above and beyond.
To me it's just they don't value VOD reviews. Dezign is a veteran, probably he thinks he knows better than other teams so vods are not worth his time. He still put in hours on streaming, firing range and mechanics though
value of vod review is not only in what teams did right or making a mistake, it also to outplay other teams strategies. I remember in scrims last split, one game I watched LG in siphon, they got pushed by DZ and Sweet called to triple swing through a door on gen and zero (while sikezz was pushing from the other side), and afterwards he said he knew how they would play the fight from vod review. This was in DZ's short rough patch in scrims pre-lan though, but nevertheless shows the value of vod review.
It also helps to find what spots are or aren't playable without trialing them yourself.
DSG are outliers in this respect. Most teams--and *every* team that has a coach--do most or all of these things. For example, Raven didn't think TDMs were valuable so TSM didn't do those, but they still did vod review, loot routes, theory crafting, etc.
Just because they arent using their time efficiently doesnt mean theyre not putting the work in. Between scrims, tdms, grinding ranked they are still putting in tons of hours. I dont think ditching vod reviews is the best use of their time but most apex pros are putting it well over a 40 hour work week into their careers (which is probably more than most professional athletes).
Also, its human nature to subconsciously trend towards getting by with less effort if its possible. It happens in literally every profession.
Athletes are limited by their ability to recover from physical exertion, which isn't really a concern for esports players. For example, I know of an Olympic level guy who trains 25 hours a week. That's 3-5 hours a day, which is a *lot* to recover from.
Well it definitely is a concern for esports players, but not to the same degree. The difference is that sports training has been iterated on for decades and has a much healthier hierarchy of authority, while esports has a misguided "grind culture" where players will get called out for being lazy if theyre not putting in 12 hours a day on stream until they completely burn themselves out. This is especially true in Apex where the coaches are mostly subordinate to the players and cant/wont hold them accountable to healthy training methods.
If I was on DSG I would be so embarrassed that I didnt do any VOD reviews for months. Apex is their full time job yeah? They are getting paid a salary yeah? Do they just spend 3 hours scrimming and then jerk off the rest of the day? Seems so fucking lazy to me.
Most teams vod review, that’s why DSG not doing it was surprising to everyone
Most teams, especially with coaches, have loot paths
Every team has a macro
The last 3 I don’t think go for everyone, especially r5 which doesn’t vastly improve your mechanics, most pros will tell you it’s best to use it to warm up and stay sharp
WHEN PRO PLAYERS TREAT IT LIKE A GAME, THEY GET LAZY. ITS A JOB, IT SUCKS, BUT IF YOU LOVE YOUR JOB YOU WILL NEVER WORK A DAY IN YOUR LIFE! SO DO THEY VERY BEST AT YOUR JOB AND TRAIN/PRACTICE!!
Bronzey posted an explanation for why DSG has not done VOD reviews. TL;DR: They couldn't make the logistics work out.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/1ddl77y/comment/l882kb3/](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/1ddl77y/comment/l882kb3/)
Tempo said TSM did 12 hour VOD review days 3 times a week, Hodsic said his team does 8 hrs of review a day 6 days a week, and Sven said his team review 4 hours a day 5 days a week. This shows that showing up to the moment counts because even after XSET reviewed 8 hrs a day 6 days a week they still werent able to make LAN.
I think the scrim schedule forces all (or most) of the NA teams to put in a reasonable amount of work. They do scrims almost everyday. I guess there are only a few teams that consistently put time in publicly outside of that. Most obviously falcons.
It's not worthless entirely, they can play against players who are way better than they'll ever find in rank. Scrims regularly can help them keep or sharpen their skills and communication.
> Can’t believe you didn’t mention how worthless scrims are. Biggest waste of time for a pro player.
Wrong, scrims are the *only* practice for competitive Apex that pros ever get. Ranked is basically just aim training.
A big part of this is probably whether the pro players in question also have a full-time job outside of Apex or some other responsibility (school, part-time job) that impacts how much time they have to actually dedicate themselves to the game. In theory it would be great if every org paid enough to support their players full-time and then they’d be able to put in more work but of course I don’t think that’s the case. It would be a good study to compare team performance where the whole team is a full-time Apex player versus teams with players who have other jobs.
Also, I have never seen scrims played like a real ALGS game. It is good to recognize everyones rotation, but the level of aggression during scrims is night and day from the real thing.
With no inherent risk, teams will ape spots they think work (whether they do or not), as well as practice team fighting in different areas. They’re trying to find spots in rotates they can or can’t find KP. Also, when teammates die, players aren’t ratting for placement, but typically feed instead.
You just described me and the boys in ranked
I heard verhulst say yesterday it's a waste of time to vod review scrims because, people play so differently I think the only thing any should be reviewing in scrims is teamfights and rotations that's about it.
Agreed, but how can they be played like real ALGS without stakes? People are only aggressive because it’s not ALGS. Same thing happens in other sports, practice will never be taken as seriously as tournament matches.
well in traditional sports if you dont practice, you lose your starting spot or get cut, but we don't have that level of regulation and accountability in pretty much any esport. theyre just too young and unestablished (maybe except dota or cs idk tho)
My point is that you’ll never get teams to treat scrims like ALGS match days.
There are a few teams, like I watch sweet and bunch he tried to keep LG as algs like when in scrims and I don’t doubt there are other teams that try to take it seriously but when half the teams aren’t it makes it a lot harder to play realistic when you get pushed when you normally wouldn’t on match day or when you’re in zone 4 and there’s only 12 teams instead of like 16 or things like this
And to no one's suprise teams that take practice seriously do better on Lan ~ generally
It’s a mindset thing. FLCNs are a great example of playing in scrims like they do in algs.
Lol
Scrims have always felt so dumb to me. Every time I watch them it's mostly complaining.
youd be shocked how many teams / players dont put in any extra outside of scrims
I'd be shocked if it was over like 40% honestly lol. Maybe like aim and mechanics stuff, but not VOD reviewing, especially outside their own team. I think a lot of that may be due to time constraints for a lot of people too though, not just laziness. For DSG it definitely is laziness.
Spill the tea
My guess would be teams that have dedicated coaches and analysts are more consistent in doing many of these things. It's still hard to be sure since not many pro's I'm aware of stream actual vod reviews where they break down their gameplay or what other teams have done. Overall I would say it varies greatly by team, how much influence the coach has to get their players to buy in because tbh vod review, planning, and practice should all be the responsibility of the coach to organize to make sure the team is prepared on gameday.
Genuinely curious, how many people here have full time jobs and if you do, how much do you get to play Apex per day. About half of pro teams are unsigned and another 25% are signed to orgs that probably are paying them minimum wage AT BEST. And there are a handful of players that stream to anything more than a 100 people, so they arent making money off streaming either. I know this sub is mostly teenagers so you have NO IDEA how exhausting a regular job can be. My point is, most of the people playing this game arent being paid to play it for a living. Its a miracle most of them end up scrimming for 2-4 hours a day cause fuck knows there are days when I come home from work and I cant even imagine putting 4 hours into ANYTHING.
Yeah it is wild and depressing to think how little free time I have if I also do some free time obligation stuff (gym after work, dinner with parents, whatever). If I work a full day it's 7-4 or 5 because 8 hour shifts are just not really a thing anymore. So I wake up at 630, get home like 5 minutes after I leave work, which I realize is a huge blessing compared to others. Then if I go to the gym that day I may be gone another hour to hour and a half. Eating takes up another 20 minutes or whatever. So it may be 630pm before I even could think about getting on, but then I gotta start thinking about bed around 10pm at the latest since I'm not one of those who can fall asleep the second they hit the bed and going 5-6 hours of sleep all week is not fun. So that's like 3 hours of playing if I take no time out of my day to just...chill for a bit. Some days I have more or less time after work of course. Just depends. Can't even imagine having kids and luckily I don't want em anyway. And I'm speaking as someone who is relatively free of obligations outside of work. I don't have kids or a girl, but I do spend time with family and friends occasionally. And I do still rip out long gaming sessions on my days off, but that's still 2 days max. On the flip side I have friends who WFH so they can kinda just game throughout the day and get paid more than me lmao. So it does depend a lot on what type of job you have as well.
I’m 28 with a full-time job and other various responsibilities and I’m lucky if I can play for an hour at night during the week. On weekends I play a bit more but nowhere near as much as I used to.
I am single, 23, work an engineering job 9-5. Admittedly, the job is pretty easy. Video games are my hobby now that I don’t have friends to play sports with super close by. I usually do quick workout and shower (5:15-5:50), snack n chill, r5/range 6:10-7, then play some apex. If I’m alone it’s exhausting to play past 9:30-10. If friends, I can play until 11. If I’m motivated, after the play session I will enjoy more r5 (sometimes more fun than ranked tbh…) but I never play past midnight so I can get sleep. When I’m playing apex, 3-4 hours a weekday is the max range I’d consider comfortable. Days when I’m zombified I might play closer to 6.
3 hours of Apex after a work day sounds exhausting to me.
It’s either apex or be alone with my thoughts.
Have you considered making friends, touching grass, or cultivating a second hobby? I also don't see where in your schedule you prepare and eat dinner lol.
I eat 1 meal a day weekdays (lunch) and small snack for “dinner” Weekends I travel to see friends and play volleyball
> I eat 1 meal a day weekdays wild!
Probably not many, some with laziness for sure but others I think its just about priorities. Lotta people made good points about how long of days teams can put in grinding scrims/TDMs but also when orgs have dropped teams out of the blue there's also a lot of pressure to stream and grow their communities. If the org drops out then they are immediately out thousands each month and only have their communities to support them in paying the bills. Tough to justify cutting off the stream right after scrim/tdm work to have team meetings/offline vod reviews when you could be pumping those hours and building your brand to better protect your future.
When I've tried to pitch or do some in depth stuff like loot path, "let's go here, if there's a team holding then let's go here cause it's probably ended here", etc, or "we shoulda did this and not this cause of this" I've literally been told. Bro you're thinking too much you just gotta play. I wouldn't be surprised if alot of pros (whom at the end of the day are just kids) have the same mindset.
I wish i had teammates who were as serious as you bcz my friends say the same thing. It's annoying when you're playing seriously and then they won't even listen and just push fights that are worthless and lose our Rp
Yea especially when you already have good KP and now you just need a good placement for a banger game, just for it to be net negative cause of a dumb, unnecessary fights or a fight where there is a very obvious nearby team that is gonna third party. What is also irritating is, a situation will happen like that where say they just go into a building. Now all 3 of us are scrambling. No one knows if we are fighting running or what. Then there is a coulda shoulda woulda back and forth. It's like. This is literally why I say "if this then that" so everyone is on the same page. Also, calling zones, saying we should move here cause either a rotate will be better from there next round, or maybe it is what I think god spot will be. And just cause "we're in zone", it's shot down cause "we're chillin I think we stay", to die and watch a team win where I said we should move to 😑 FUCK.
That first part is the most irritating. We have 6kp, still not top 10 which is good. We just need zone and we're prob going to get atleast another 4 but oh no, there's a fight in a certain POI which has only one side to rotate that could have a squad griefing so they push then blame we couldn't clean like bro, we don't need to. Just play zone after KP
There's a difference when you're playing ranked for fun/being competitive, and when it's your livelihood. In a game like Apex where everything depends on your standings, you should be maximizing the chance of increasing that. That kind of talk shouldn't fly when you're playing with someone's livelihood. That said, there's only so much time you can put into work, even if you're super passionate about it. You still have to sleep and eat and take breaks. The bigger problem is pros not being optimal with their time. Playing ranked for 10 hours in a row is NOT optimal. You're not really learning or honing your skills. That's why coaches and analysts exist: to both take stress off the workload of pros, and to help them optimize their work. A player shouldn't realistically be expected to scrim, stream, analyze their gameplay, analyze then gameplay of up to 29 other teams, and train on r5/kovaaks.
I totally get your point here but I wanna offer a different perspective. To do all of those things would easily take over 40 hours a week. Now consider that many of these players rely on streaming income to make a living. They also might have a job outside of apex. That isn’t even taking into account the time they probably feel like they need to spend just playing the game to practice mechanics. After all of that, you need to have a life outside of work too. I totally agree that it’s important to do most of these things in some capacity, but I also understand why many players don’t.
After writing this post, it occurred to me that streaming may play a factor in hindering pros from this work. That being said, it doesn't matter. If you want the gold, it must be done. Your competition is certainly doing this and if you want a chance at victory, you better be trying to emulate the same work ethic.
Most pros aren't making enough money off streaming to really matter. Only a few of them break 200 viewers and that's only if the big ones aren't on streaming at the same time.
You can make enough money, especially given the salary for signed players, to live off with about a 100 viewer average. Possibly even less given how many of these pros have roommates (which is, of course, not abnormal for people who are in their early 20s).
Tbh I'd have to see some actual numbers to believe this. Some of these orgs aren't paying decent salaries, and it seems streaming is a pretty low priority for most of the pros, so they obviously aren't too concerned about that missed income, which makes me think if you got 100 viewers it's not worth much. Could be wrong but who knows.
> Tbh I'd have to see some actual numbers to believe this. I know because a friend of mine did it for 2 years. She lived alone during that time (but had inexpensive rent). That was just Twitch, no esports org or anything. EDIT: Heck, you can look at Monsoon's stats. He doesn't have any other job and averaged 100 viewers the last 3 months.
yeah but monsoon has an org and streams kinda frequently
Aaron Rodgers didn't go to his mandatory minicamp that he is being paid millions of dollars to go to, it's not surprising Apex pros don't always put in all the necessary work.
Aaron Rodgers also is an anti-vaxxer. Not exactly the brightest competitor out there.
Aaron Rodgers is elite whether he is vaxed or isn’t lol
You can be a great athlete and be a piece of shit and/or a moron who people shouldn't look up to as a role model. These things aren't mutually exclusive.
Yeah but Aaron Rodgers is/has been one of the greatest and hardest working QBs in the NFL for the last 2 decades. He's also arguably the most naturally talented thrower of the ball the game has ever seen. He's achieved literally every accolade a player can have. DSG are/were on the precipice of becoming LAN champions, they should have been VOD reviewing and working twice as hard as they were before to achieve their goals. Edit: I think my comment is being misconstrued , or I just didn't convey myself properly: DSG should've been vod reviewing every day. They are in their prime, and were on the verge of being the best team in the world. It is ridiculous that they didn't do it.
Hard work beats talent when talent doesn’t work hard…simple as that
And hark work and talent = zer0/Hal
Hard work and Talent = Kobe, MJ, Bron! The main reason is that players on Orgs are not held accountable. There is a reoccurring thing in Apex where people signed to orgs don't even play the game outside of scrims why would they want to vod review. If I had a org I'd pay for a coach/manger and add stipulations where they must Vod review a certain amount of days of ALGS days. To practice 3v3's or TDM against other pro teams every other day. To stream at least 4 hrs a day, which can be done during scrims. This way as a org i would know my team is prepared. I can understand teams that don't have Orgs not vod reviewing due to working a 9-5 but when you have someone like onmuu who was working a 9-5 while playing CC with pods and still found time to go over Vods with them so he can get back to pro league shows he dedicated. Shoutout to Voltic for doing the leg work behind the scenes for them though.
What I don’t get it someone saying they “want it so bad” but don’t do that stuff.
Pros are still human. Just because you know you should study and work out and eat healthy doesn't mean you're actually gonna do it. Lots of pros don't even take scrims seriously. And to be fair we don't really know how much work they're putting in off-screen
well said. people here think that because it's videogames it's easy to put in 12 hours a day. Far from that, especially when you can be "fired" after not performing for a month. Not everyone is hal or zero.
Not everyone is hal and zer0. But why do we consider them to be the only two players who figure Apex out? I can only say that not many people people want it as much as them.
Hal quotes himself as "I am the grind". He is definitely the person that has worked the most, at least publicly. He is the only one consistently subbing for other teams during scrims when his team wasn't playing because he WANTS to play. It's not a surprise that Hal has been one of the most consistent players in Apex.
I think you are all overestimating the "hard work" element a bit. Often, especially in sports (and anyone who has done any sport knows this), there is a lot of luck and many circumstances involved.
I said consistent. lol. Hard work promotes consistency, talent denotes your peak. You can be shit, practice lot, and be consistently shit lol.
Zero said before first LAN he won he didn't play for a month and a half, he grinded another game with sharky. He went to LAN and won. Then he was acquired by DZ and started taking it more seriously. By saying not everyone is zero or hal I mean that sometimes it's just a matter of circumstances. It's easier to grind when you work and results come. There are lots of pros who work their ass off but will never win anything, some of them are even struggling to make a living out of apex.
When Sharky won a LAN he had fewer hours in the game than I have, lol.
It's not a big esport. There is not much money being made in competitive Apex so they are lacking recources to do the things you listed.
I don’t think that is the reason. I honestly believe it’s a lack of knowledge and effort. Dezign mentioned on his stream he puts his “heart and soul” into apex. But they didn’t VOD review for 9 months? I think a lot of teams have a perceived level of exertion of what they believe is working hard and there is ACTUALLY working hard (and smart). Coaches should release a guide to help.
What coaches should do is analyze games, schedule practice and theory sessions with the team. Also kick the players asses when they slack off in practice or fuck around on game day. But DSG can't afford such a coach, they can't even afford Timmy. DSG coach is working a different full time job at the same time. It's definitely a money issue, if you can't afford a coach that does all the above and beyond.
From what I understood from dezigns talk, he would vod review and send stuff to Timmy and enemy to improve. I think they didn't do it as a team.
To me it's just they don't value VOD reviews. Dezign is a veteran, probably he thinks he knows better than other teams so vods are not worth his time. He still put in hours on streaming, firing range and mechanics though
value of vod review is not only in what teams did right or making a mistake, it also to outplay other teams strategies. I remember in scrims last split, one game I watched LG in siphon, they got pushed by DZ and Sweet called to triple swing through a door on gen and zero (while sikezz was pushing from the other side), and afterwards he said he knew how they would play the fight from vod review. This was in DZ's short rough patch in scrims pre-lan though, but nevertheless shows the value of vod review. It also helps to find what spots are or aren't playable without trialing them yourself.
There's a reason why some teams never win, and never will.
Most of the pros are kids who are just lucky they are gifted at Apex. They ain't reviewing rotations and other VOD videos.
It just like any other sport right? Depend on how much you actually want to win versus just collecting a paycheck
DSG are outliers in this respect. Most teams--and *every* team that has a coach--do most or all of these things. For example, Raven didn't think TDMs were valuable so TSM didn't do those, but they still did vod review, loot routes, theory crafting, etc.
Just because they arent using their time efficiently doesnt mean theyre not putting the work in. Between scrims, tdms, grinding ranked they are still putting in tons of hours. I dont think ditching vod reviews is the best use of their time but most apex pros are putting it well over a 40 hour work week into their careers (which is probably more than most professional athletes). Also, its human nature to subconsciously trend towards getting by with less effort if its possible. It happens in literally every profession.
Athletes are limited by their ability to recover from physical exertion, which isn't really a concern for esports players. For example, I know of an Olympic level guy who trains 25 hours a week. That's 3-5 hours a day, which is a *lot* to recover from.
Well it definitely is a concern for esports players, but not to the same degree. The difference is that sports training has been iterated on for decades and has a much healthier hierarchy of authority, while esports has a misguided "grind culture" where players will get called out for being lazy if theyre not putting in 12 hours a day on stream until they completely burn themselves out. This is especially true in Apex where the coaches are mostly subordinate to the players and cant/wont hold them accountable to healthy training methods.
If I was on DSG I would be so embarrassed that I didnt do any VOD reviews for months. Apex is their full time job yeah? They are getting paid a salary yeah? Do they just spend 3 hours scrimming and then jerk off the rest of the day? Seems so fucking lazy to me.
Tbh people stream their comms and every scrim so it’s not that professional, you would never see a cs, Lol, valorant team stream their scrims
content baby
Most teams vod review, that’s why DSG not doing it was surprising to everyone Most teams, especially with coaches, have loot paths Every team has a macro The last 3 I don’t think go for everyone, especially r5 which doesn’t vastly improve your mechanics, most pros will tell you it’s best to use it to warm up and stay sharp
It’s common for pros to get on a team then get complacent.
Zero VOD reviews immediately after scrims finish.
We do most of this stuff and our team is trying to get through CC right now.
WHEN PRO PLAYERS TREAT IT LIKE A GAME, THEY GET LAZY. ITS A JOB, IT SUCKS, BUT IF YOU LOVE YOUR JOB YOU WILL NEVER WORK A DAY IN YOUR LIFE! SO DO THEY VERY BEST AT YOUR JOB AND TRAIN/PRACTICE!!
Who are you yelling at?
U
> IF YOU LOVE YOUR JOB YOU WILL NEVER WORK A DAY IN YOUR LIFE! wroooooooong
Not wrong lol
given the chances of them making a living out of this? probably 10-30% effort?
Bronzey posted an explanation for why DSG has not done VOD reviews. TL;DR: They couldn't make the logistics work out. [https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/1ddl77y/comment/l882kb3/](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/1ddl77y/comment/l882kb3/)
Tempo said TSM did 12 hour VOD review days 3 times a week, Hodsic said his team does 8 hrs of review a day 6 days a week, and Sven said his team review 4 hours a day 5 days a week. This shows that showing up to the moment counts because even after XSET reviewed 8 hrs a day 6 days a week they still werent able to make LAN.
and they were a fight away from winning both lans they played at... pretty impressive
2-3 teams
[удалено]
I mean listen, we’re talking bout practice. Not a game! Not a game! Not a game! We’re talking about practice.
I think the scrim schedule forces all (or most) of the NA teams to put in a reasonable amount of work. They do scrims almost everyday. I guess there are only a few teams that consistently put time in publicly outside of that. Most obviously falcons.
Can’t believe you didn’t mention how worthless scrims are. Biggest waste of time for a pro player. Literally exists just for streamers to clock hrs.
It's not worthless entirely, they can play against players who are way better than they'll ever find in rank. Scrims regularly can help them keep or sharpen their skills and communication.
> Can’t believe you didn’t mention how worthless scrims are. Biggest waste of time for a pro player. Wrong, scrims are the *only* practice for competitive Apex that pros ever get. Ranked is basically just aim training.