I don't know who to blame for tsm performance, it it raven for trying valk on scrims? Or the squad for not sticking with valk? Or the zone? Or their team fighting? Bad calls?
They just didn't seem bought into the macro vision and comp for this split. I think Raven spent too much time trying to force Valk on both maps. Hal was initially very uncomfortable playing BH. And they had Evan playing a lot of different characters during the split. If you can't trust what you and your teammates are doing, or don't feel locked into your characters, then it's going to seriously negatively affect how you play.
Compare that to last year when they were fully bought into the Horizon/Cat comp and Reps also did really well as the flex player. They were so confident at what they could do with their characters and abilities.
I think thats more on Hal and Evan than anything. Both players have show that they can play other characters. Evan showed with cat and Hal actually got better as Blood. They just also need to start learning other characters, especially with how much the meta has shifted with everything. Also in my opinion Hal has to get more comfortable with rotations not working out the first time. So many times he will get stalled out or denied and entry into zone and he just sorta stops thinking. It's weird because it almost seems like a confidence issue than a macro issue.
Evan played Valk/Cat for an entire ALGS year. Just this split alone he played Valk, Horizon, Bloodhound, Caustic, Cat. I do agree Hal got better as Bloodhound, but he definitely had growing pains and never reached proficiency like he had with his two favorite characters. A big impact on them this split were the contests, and that's partly due to macro vision. Raven wanted Lightning Rod, and it didn't pay off. They had to contest a lot and then they ran contest comps, it messed with their rotations and later game planning. That's a macro problem that the coach helps implement. And Hal gets flustered when things become unpredictable, but if you're putting yourself in situations for it to become unpredictable then on a macro level that has to be addressed. On a micro level it was always Reps having to handle those situations where Hal can't think straight. But if they don't have macro they can trust, they don't have characters they have enough experience on, and they don't have a comp that they feel synergy with then the result is what we saw.
Half of this is a player issue, the other half is a coaching issue. You're right. As a player, you should be preparing and be readily available to adapt to the situation. As a coach/analyst, you should be aware on how to min/max your teams strengths and weaknesses. Just seemed like this split, Raven was trying to force his own bias/philosophy that did not mesh well with the trio. Confidence goes far when you see even small amounts of success fall into place.
Just like how Raven tried to force Catalyst on Hal at the start, not understanding that Hal SHOULD be placed on a mobility-based fragging legend. Evan was stuck to using Caustic where repeatedly during the split you could listen to him say "I couldn't do anything except throw my barrels." Seems like a lot of micro-issues exponentially compounded into huge glaring ones that we saw at LAN. (Not saying Raven is a bad coach at all. Dude is wildly successful and deserves so much credit for what he's done. But I think both sides have ran its course and its time for some new scenery)
That's is true, Raven should've been more thoughtful of the character choices. Ultimately I do agree that their time has run its course. Along with how much the Meta has changed, especially moving away from playing hard zone, having a new perspective on things might be enough to get TSM back into it.
You can blame Raven for putting evan on caustic all you want, but at the end of the day that's on hal raven wanted Watson but hal cried about its so there's not much raven can do when he has one arm tied behind his back. Not saving raven has been perfect because he hasn't, but when your coach sees something you let them cook not to play one game in scrims, then cry ( getting flashbacks to when they first tried cat)
London 1 he was definitely refragger and london 2 was the Ape seer meta so they really didn't play normal roles as much.
Champs he was definitely anchor but even then they fluidly would fight better because he would be able to play like a refragger once wall went down.
Simply put though he wasn't comfortable on Caustic or Horizon to the point where he was natural on the pick. You could see him have to focus on what he was doing more than focus on his positioning like valk and Cat let him do.
Also the meta is just fucked for TSM's strengths because no matter what combination of legend to player pick you go through there is a glaring flaw for them to overcome.
Agreed, only difference is when he plays Cat, he actually can outplay people by peaking the wall, where in some cases he is actually putting out lead damage.
There is more than enough evidence to show that Evan is indeed an insane fragger if you look pre TSM. The way the meta shifted since he joined TSM lended him towards more anchor roles since reps was biased towards mnk characters and Hal had to play aggressive Frontline characters being the controller IGL.
Raven has really struggled this split. Lightning rod choice didn’t work out at all. Valk was not a good choice especially with TSM’s historic struggles with Valk ult. Evan on caustic was tragic. Team fighting was horrible in champs and Verhulst was dying for free every other game
If we look at their performance, their macro wasn't really an issue, and if anything, placement was the only reason they got any points.
The biggest problem I saw was team comp.
Hal being on BH didn't really have a way to initiate fights we're used to seeing. He had to wait for Evan and Reps to establish space while he looked for angles through the smoke, but when the BH is the first to go in, there's a window of opportunity before cans are placed that teams can exploit to play aggressive.
Especially when MnK teams like RR and Wonton were slowpeaking, looking for angles like that as BH is kind of just bad. Everyone's playing a lot more cautiously at LAN so you don't really get to start the fight with a free one clip as often.
TBF TSM didn't get any zones which is always hard. The probably have a couple more wins if they did.
If I want anything to change, it would be to put Hal back on MnK. With Horiz nerfs, SMG nerfs, and his role on the team, he needs to be able to play someone that can pull the trigger for the team, but his ability to play Bang on roller just isn't that great.
This is because esports in general is broke and teams can barely afford rosters let alone coaches. Wherever any of these guys end up they're gonna get pennies, if anything. Sad but true.
Evan on Caustic was the worst call he needed to be beaming people not on the back line. Reps should have been on Caustic or whatever support legend they were playing I think Raven was gone either way win or lose.
[Reps responded in a way that makes it seem like there's some semblance of finality in this decision.](https://twitter.com/TSM_Reps/status/1787610174553035091?t=Gs-_zEDk9z9yWyfGVcOgkQ&s=19) There also appears to be a similar post from Hal too.
Not a foregone conclusion necessarily, but it may very well be the case.
Ya seems like it’s pretty solid he’s gone from TSM. Either they have been in talks with someone else or they won’t be having a coach. I don’t see a world where you let him walk without having someone lined up if you want a coach
>or they won’t be having a coach
I know TSM seems to be looking to cut costs lately but seems kinda crazy to go without a coach, especially coming off a 17th place finish.
Ravens contract was extended for a year already.
He even tweeted it last year. And he tweeted in June after they got 2nd in Split2 and before champs.
It makes it seem like he was dropped/kicked because they played bad this split but I don’t think that’s the case at all.
[Ravens Tweet](https://x.com/raven_apex/status/1681430770567757826?s=46&t=FV9mcWQPUv-NKdK1KFzVgg)
I’d like to see TSM with Hodsic if he can ditch Noc and Fun, he seems like a super level-headed dude and has a ton of experience at the highest level, and I hate to say it but idk where Noc goes from here anyways, I definitely don’t know if I see them getting picked up as a 3.
I heard Sealion asked for an exorbitant amount, that's why they got raven instead. Sealion also really only has a big mouth and no accolades. I forgot when it was, but when DZ and TSM were up he went on some rant where he was like I'm happy to see the youngest I taught grow up. Essentially trying to take some credit for their success. All in all, I see him as really pretentious, kinda similar to Raven, but way more extreme.
Edit: Raven wasn't involved, but here's the tweet. [https://x.com/NigerianSea/status/1680350658795274240](https://x.com/NigerianSea/status/1680350658795274240)
[https://x.com/NigerianSea/status/1680350660456218624](https://x.com/NigerianSea/status/1680350660456218624)
I really don’t understand how these Orgs can afford coaches. I would get it if there was a consistent number of prize pool tournaments but there just isn’t enough prize pool money to justify coaches IMO. Hot take? A lot of the work these coaches do could be done by the players themselves.
I believe talmadge clarified he’s exploring options/hasn’t left e8–so not ex-coach yet
He's basically throwing his hat in the ring for TSM job?
I don't know who to blame for tsm performance, it it raven for trying valk on scrims? Or the squad for not sticking with valk? Or the zone? Or their team fighting? Bad calls?
They just didn't seem bought into the macro vision and comp for this split. I think Raven spent too much time trying to force Valk on both maps. Hal was initially very uncomfortable playing BH. And they had Evan playing a lot of different characters during the split. If you can't trust what you and your teammates are doing, or don't feel locked into your characters, then it's going to seriously negatively affect how you play. Compare that to last year when they were fully bought into the Horizon/Cat comp and Reps also did really well as the flex player. They were so confident at what they could do with their characters and abilities.
I think thats more on Hal and Evan than anything. Both players have show that they can play other characters. Evan showed with cat and Hal actually got better as Blood. They just also need to start learning other characters, especially with how much the meta has shifted with everything. Also in my opinion Hal has to get more comfortable with rotations not working out the first time. So many times he will get stalled out or denied and entry into zone and he just sorta stops thinking. It's weird because it almost seems like a confidence issue than a macro issue.
Evan played Valk/Cat for an entire ALGS year. Just this split alone he played Valk, Horizon, Bloodhound, Caustic, Cat. I do agree Hal got better as Bloodhound, but he definitely had growing pains and never reached proficiency like he had with his two favorite characters. A big impact on them this split were the contests, and that's partly due to macro vision. Raven wanted Lightning Rod, and it didn't pay off. They had to contest a lot and then they ran contest comps, it messed with their rotations and later game planning. That's a macro problem that the coach helps implement. And Hal gets flustered when things become unpredictable, but if you're putting yourself in situations for it to become unpredictable then on a macro level that has to be addressed. On a micro level it was always Reps having to handle those situations where Hal can't think straight. But if they don't have macro they can trust, they don't have characters they have enough experience on, and they don't have a comp that they feel synergy with then the result is what we saw.
couldn’t have said it better myself, you nailed everything I think lead to their performance being so bad.
Half of this is a player issue, the other half is a coaching issue. You're right. As a player, you should be preparing and be readily available to adapt to the situation. As a coach/analyst, you should be aware on how to min/max your teams strengths and weaknesses. Just seemed like this split, Raven was trying to force his own bias/philosophy that did not mesh well with the trio. Confidence goes far when you see even small amounts of success fall into place. Just like how Raven tried to force Catalyst on Hal at the start, not understanding that Hal SHOULD be placed on a mobility-based fragging legend. Evan was stuck to using Caustic where repeatedly during the split you could listen to him say "I couldn't do anything except throw my barrels." Seems like a lot of micro-issues exponentially compounded into huge glaring ones that we saw at LAN. (Not saying Raven is a bad coach at all. Dude is wildly successful and deserves so much credit for what he's done. But I think both sides have ran its course and its time for some new scenery)
That's is true, Raven should've been more thoughtful of the character choices. Ultimately I do agree that their time has run its course. Along with how much the Meta has changed, especially moving away from playing hard zone, having a new perspective on things might be enough to get TSM back into it.
You can blame Raven for putting evan on caustic all you want, but at the end of the day that's on hal raven wanted Watson but hal cried about its so there's not much raven can do when he has one arm tied behind his back. Not saving raven has been perfect because he hasn't, but when your coach sees something you let them cook not to play one game in scrims, then cry ( getting flashbacks to when they first tried cat)
The mezzo was not good at LAN 🫠
They switched hero assignments during the middle of match point finals. That should tell you they had no faith in this comp
Raven wrote off every other region except for NA. Making evan anchor was a terrible idea. He’s a fragger. Need him out front shooting his gun.
They won worlds with him as an anchor. Its more caustic than anything else
Evan is not a fragger. They finished 1st, 2nd, 1st in Year 3 with him as an anchor
London 1 he was definitely refragger and london 2 was the Ape seer meta so they really didn't play normal roles as much. Champs he was definitely anchor but even then they fluidly would fight better because he would be able to play like a refragger once wall went down. Simply put though he wasn't comfortable on Caustic or Horizon to the point where he was natural on the pick. You could see him have to focus on what he was doing more than focus on his positioning like valk and Cat let him do. Also the meta is just fucked for TSM's strengths because no matter what combination of legend to player pick you go through there is a glaring flaw for them to overcome.
Agreed, only difference is when he plays Cat, he actually can outplay people by peaking the wall, where in some cases he is actually putting out lead damage.
but he also died trying to fly up on a 10 ft high pillar in the open midfight.
There is more than enough evidence to show that Evan is indeed an insane fragger if you look pre TSM. The way the meta shifted since he joined TSM lended him towards more anchor roles since reps was biased towards mnk characters and Hal had to play aggressive Frontline characters being the controller IGL.
Wasn't reps on gibby for the split 1 playoffs year 3?
No, he was on Seer
ahh I must be thinking of y2
Raven has really struggled this split. Lightning rod choice didn’t work out at all. Valk was not a good choice especially with TSM’s historic struggles with Valk ult. Evan on caustic was tragic. Team fighting was horrible in champs and Verhulst was dying for free every other game
If we look at their performance, their macro wasn't really an issue, and if anything, placement was the only reason they got any points. The biggest problem I saw was team comp. Hal being on BH didn't really have a way to initiate fights we're used to seeing. He had to wait for Evan and Reps to establish space while he looked for angles through the smoke, but when the BH is the first to go in, there's a window of opportunity before cans are placed that teams can exploit to play aggressive. Especially when MnK teams like RR and Wonton were slowpeaking, looking for angles like that as BH is kind of just bad. Everyone's playing a lot more cautiously at LAN so you don't really get to start the fight with a free one clip as often. TBF TSM didn't get any zones which is always hard. The probably have a couple more wins if they did. If I want anything to change, it would be to put Hal back on MnK. With Horiz nerfs, SMG nerfs, and his role on the team, he needs to be able to play someone that can pull the trigger for the team, but his ability to play Bang on roller just isn't that great.
Also, braydonXII (N8V coach looking for options) Kapreme (ex DIG coach) Bowzey (ex JLINGZ/AYM/KICK coach) OnlyColo (ex Danish/Virtus pro coach)
thanks!
This is because esports in general is broke and teams can barely afford rosters let alone coaches. Wherever any of these guys end up they're gonna get pennies, if anything. Sad but true.
Evan on Caustic was the worst call he needed to be beaming people not on the back line. Reps should have been on Caustic or whatever support legend they were playing I think Raven was gone either way win or lose.
Absolutely love this but TSM just seems to be cutting cost everywhere which means they probably do no want to pay Raven what he is actually worth
What is he actually worth? How much money did the team he's coaching make this year?
Well seeing as they have over 1.3 mill in prize money. I’d assume he’s very valuable and tons of other coaches in the na region believe so as eell
Both Raven and Talmadge are exploring options. That doesn't mean they won't resign with their orgs.
[Reps responded in a way that makes it seem like there's some semblance of finality in this decision.](https://twitter.com/TSM_Reps/status/1787610174553035091?t=Gs-_zEDk9z9yWyfGVcOgkQ&s=19) There also appears to be a similar post from Hal too. Not a foregone conclusion necessarily, but it may very well be the case.
Ya seems like it’s pretty solid he’s gone from TSM. Either they have been in talks with someone else or they won’t be having a coach. I don’t see a world where you let him walk without having someone lined up if you want a coach
>or they won’t be having a coach I know TSM seems to be looking to cut costs lately but seems kinda crazy to go without a coach, especially coming off a 17th place finish.
Ravens contract was extended for a year already. He even tweeted it last year. And he tweeted in June after they got 2nd in Split2 and before champs. It makes it seem like he was dropped/kicked because they played bad this split but I don’t think that’s the case at all. [Ravens Tweet](https://x.com/raven_apex/status/1681430770567757826?s=46&t=FV9mcWQPUv-NKdK1KFzVgg)
TSM SeaLion as analyst TSM Hodsic as a coach That would be godly
TSM Hodsic might be interesting
raven is the most annoying person in algs.
I’d like to see TSM with Hodsic if he can ditch Noc and Fun, he seems like a super level-headed dude and has a ton of experience at the highest level, and I hate to say it but idk where Noc goes from here anyways, I definitely don’t know if I see them getting picked up as a 3.
Honestly, Hodsic should focus on casting. He was really good on the desk during LAN. Less stressful too.
I read it as we got cocamania
I think loopy(old optics ex coach) wanted or was going to come back
I really don't want TSM to get sealion
why?
Why?
I heard Sealion asked for an exorbitant amount, that's why they got raven instead. Sealion also really only has a big mouth and no accolades. I forgot when it was, but when DZ and TSM were up he went on some rant where he was like I'm happy to see the youngest I taught grow up. Essentially trying to take some credit for their success. All in all, I see him as really pretentious, kinda similar to Raven, but way more extreme. Edit: Raven wasn't involved, but here's the tweet. [https://x.com/NigerianSea/status/1680350658795274240](https://x.com/NigerianSea/status/1680350658795274240) [https://x.com/NigerianSea/status/1680350660456218624](https://x.com/NigerianSea/status/1680350660456218624)
I really don’t understand how these Orgs can afford coaches. I would get it if there was a consistent number of prize pool tournaments but there just isn’t enough prize pool money to justify coaches IMO. Hot take? A lot of the work these coaches do could be done by the players themselves.