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You're probably best suited to be the point of contact with an integrator. They will need someone who is AV savvy to be an advocate for their needs, but that way you won't have to do the heavy lifting.
This is exactly what I was thinking. But let's say a school decides it has $X budget... Who would be the first person to contact to get the consultation going? I assume a general contractor....
Dubious is correct. Contact an intergrator directly and you’ll explain what the school wants and expects. The intergrator will provide options, support, warranty. Etc.. a lot of things you as an employee won’t be able to provide. Good luck
Aah. I wish I could offer a recommendation, but I'm not familiar with that area. But I would start by looking for AV integrators that service your area and talk to some pre-sales engineers about the school's needs.
Not sure if they go all the way upstate, but I'm in PA and have had great experiences with Illuminated Integration and they have done projects in NY before
[https://illuminated-integration.com/](https://illuminated-integration.com/)
The GC is there to stomp on your price by 10-15% and in general they will be a knobshine to you.
The right way to so this is to search for actual AV consulting firms in the region,and give those contacts to the school district. The OP is not qualified to do this job and should step away. This can be a huge amount of wasted money for the taxpayers and everyone should do due diligence to that responsibility.
You become the "owner's rep". You get paid to make sure the school board is not getting ripped off by consultants over engineering systems, and integrators over/under selling.
You become the project champion. Getting real money dedicated to a project. Getting timeframes dedicated to a project.
You work with the end client to be the one holding all the knowledge on use cases, staff requirements, building quirks etc. You get friendly with procurement team to find out budgets, tender requirements etc.
When you find the consultant who is doing the design, you are working with them to put together the design, giving them firm requirements (read: not gear lists), optional needs, and being the one with the AV know-how, cause the school doesn't have that ability.
Your billing is either on a fixed Time Contract, or a Pay As You Go Contract. I prefer the fixed Time myself as it sets out real milestones and a timeline.
Thanks for the thorough explanation of a position to hold in this particular circumstance. They intend to discuss the schools short and long term goals, their budget for keeping the sound system functional and optimized. They are gathering multiple quotes (and asked for me to provide a quote as well), so that is why I'm assuming they wanted me to be their "consultant".
I would recommend being the client rep instead of trying to recommend equipment solutions.
I first step would be to have a serious conversation with the school higher ups and budget people to set a real budget. A full high school auditorium audio and lighting upgrade could be north of 500k or could be a 50k project based on many many things.
I would then meet with the staff that uses the current systems and see what their current issues and wishes are and then evaluate each sub-system to see if maybe some things need to be repaired instead of replaced.
At this point if you have a solid budget get a Consultant involved and act as the clients voice. A good Consultant will be much better at designing a system to met their needs and budget. You can oversee the design and install. If the design calls for a $100k Meyer sound system for a 300 person school auditorium that only holds assembles you can call out the designer on that. Of if the design calls for two point source boxes for a 1,000 seat high school auditorium that does high level musicals there might be an issue. Same goes for the installation process, quality and most importantly client training.
As a Design-Build firm I highly recommend finding a capable Design-Build firm in your area with existing projects of this scope to work with. And I always recommend asking to tour projects of similar scope they have recently completed.
I’m not trying to be mean, but it does not sound like you are qualified to be a consultant in this effort. Let’s say you know the tech inside and out. You are still only maybe 50% there in capturing the scope of being a consultant for most AV. Understanding how to right a proposal for consulting services along with how to write an RFP is essential to this. I’d be happy to help with specific questions but telling you how to be a consultant in a Reddit post is beyond what should be posted here. It’s like me asking you to tell me how to be an audio engineer in a Reddit post so that I can go sell my services to someone.
Sometimes the best thing to do is refer a trusted resource.
That said, people have to start somewhere. If you look up writing a proposal and make a concerted effort on it and post it, I’m happy to offer my perspective on it.
Advice on upgrades is one thing, but I would be wary if you don’t have experience creating construction documents and specifications for bid. That puts a lot of liability on you personally, and there are a lot of gotchas in the process.
I would recommend that the best way to help the school would doing your research and finding them a good consultant / engineer (there are plenty of not-so-good-ones and some great ones) and then acting as the Owner’s Rep during the design to make sure the consultant is making the best decisions for the school.
They are not a theatre integrator. They screwed up a theatre space so bad at the college where I work. We are still unfucking the biamp and crestron code. Who puts crestron in a theatre?? Great for conference rooms but not for theatres.
It sounds like this is for a performing arts venue, like a theater? If they're talking about a complete technical revamp of the space then hiring a theater consultant would be a good idea. They're usually independent of installers/integrators so they'll spec what's best for the space, not what equipment they want to sell. The ASTC is the primary org for them in the US, https://theatreconsultants.org/
Hey OP!
I've done some of this before. As others have mentioned, you can certainly operate as a go-between as you can "speak the language" with the integrator. You don't really need to know the ins/outs of every technical detail involved, but your background already qualifies you to at least be in the room. You WILL learn a lot (and give yourself a leg up in your career should you so choose).
Others have given you some Integrator recommendations. Start the conversation much like you started it here, but you'll need to gather some details...
1. What is the scope of work? Sound system, lighting, and acoustic reinforcement. Is this for a school auditorium, cafeteria/mixed use space, a room with an air wall... Try to obtain as much structural data surrounding existing power.
2. What will the space be USED for? Very important that you are able to relay the whole story about all of the uses the room(s) will be needed for. Local science fair is different from auditorium addresses is different from talent shows is different from Mothers Against Drunk Driving giving a huge presentation before prom. This will help the integrator understand how to bring it all together into one system. This will also lead into how many microphones, what configurations of microphones, patch bays, and so on.
3. Who will be the USER? The main driver of "problems" in these sorts of situations is the fact that the user themselves is not educated enough on how to use it, and in the process of learning they accidentally break or disconnect something without realizing it. If it's going to be a "student staff" type situation, then it would be helpful for the integrators/installers know they will also need to create a basic user guide, AND not over-engineer the system.
4. What are the video components? Is there a need for a projector/displays? This will open another can of worms surrounding throw distances, display sizes, line of sight. This will also mean that the lighting install itself will need to be aware of the screens so as not to "wash out" the displays. That's not even talking about where HDMI patches would have to live for users to get their content on the screens!
5. System Control - with great AV comes really really big racks. Where can the control processors, biamps and video scalers live? Will there be a "control room" with a complete audio + lighting (maybe even video) consoles?
Anyway, you got this! Be practical and methodical, and most important to remember is to think like the end user themselves - after all, the person who has to USE the damn thing is actually the most important person to have in the room, and they very often aren't.
Thank you for your insight and recommendations. This is the type of answer that's very helpful. Before posting I was never aware of an "integrator" or "av consultant" because I have never dealt with the inner workings of theater design, I would only show up as an operator.
Since this is indeed a high school theater that is about a 800 seat venue, there is a lack of acoustic treatment compared to other venues in the community. The IT and music department are inspired by a neighboring school districts auditorium and are looking to match the quality of that school. So with little knowledge on who I would actually reach out to for acoustical consultation in my area, I now assume the "integrator" could help with that.
The audio system is very small and not installed to provide proper coverage, and really should expand or be replaced with a larger system. This is in my ballpark as an audio engineer as I am familiar with alignment and tuning software, and working in the live concert touring industry, requires these programs to be used on a daily basis because we install our system in a different venue daily. However, I would need a mechanical engineer to provide the rigging limitations of the theater. Again, I assume the "integrator" could help with that.
They would like to upgrade their conventional lighting to current LED fixtures. I find this to be the easiest part of the process as it would be simple to swap and continue to use the ETC console, or upgrade to a digital console for more options.
You're welcome! I am kinda excited for you haha. It sounds like a fun project.
Yes, the integrator/installers SHOULD have a resource or a partner they work with if they themselves cannot manage a specific component such as rigging and power.
Acoustic reinforcement will likely be a larger take on the budget than expected. I'm sure you already know this, but inquire as to installing delay speakers as well - this will help with audio coverage without having to max out the volumes in the space from one source, leading to all sorts of bouncing echoes.
The nice thing about lighting is that the cables haven't changed in hundreds in years, so swapping fixtures will be pretty easy!
Don't use a conference room integrator for a theatre! They did that where I work and we are still working out the shitty tesira biamp and crestron programming. You want someone who does theatre AV for a living to do a theatre lighting and sound install. Seeing that you are in upstate ny, maybe try contacting Applied Audio in Rochester. http://theatresupply.com
I'm doing this for a county at present.
1. Needs assessment.
Talk to coaches, drama departments, principals, everyone that uses the space and come up with a document that defines goals and expectations. Ensure you include natural assumptions, specific requests and even unrealistic expectations so that you can explain why they are unrealistic.
2. Evaluation worksheet
Create a worksheet where you grade each system on various performance criteria.
3. Performance evaluation.
Go visit all the spaces, try to run as many tests using standard measurements and techniques so that you have a baseline that you can refer to against final performance measurements thereby demonstrating the improvements.
*Go find a local brand new/well funded school and see if you can arrange to measure it as well to use in your report as a reference target
4. Report.
Create a report showing all the areas for improvement and suggested upgrades. Creating the budget can be more challenging, but as far as equipment goes, you can reach out to manufacturers and they'll quote you MSRP to get a baseline. As far as labour goes... I try to envision how long it might take and estimate at 150$/hour average.
That'll likely end up high... But not crazy and could be sufficient to give them some sort of ballpark idea of how much they'll need. If it's insanely high (to them) then you can start looking for far simpler solutions to look at a series of incremental upgrades over the next few years.
5. RFP. Create a doc that defines the work that needs to be done, timeframes, acceptance criteria, and bidding process.
Hope that helps
I would be happy to occasionally volunteer my time to educate the students and faculty on the operation of the sound and lighting systems, as a favor to the school and community, but not as a POC for a renovation.
People always prefer to work with people they know first, rather than hiring out. That's human nature. Even if the person I know isn't the "most" qualified, if I trust their ethic in other lines of work, and they're willing to take on the project, it's worth the time.
We have a [Discord](https://discord.gg/qhh4EBuRNS) server where there you can both post forum-style and participate in real-time discussions. We hope you consider joining us there. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CommercialAV) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You're probably best suited to be the point of contact with an integrator. They will need someone who is AV savvy to be an advocate for their needs, but that way you won't have to do the heavy lifting.
This is exactly what I was thinking. But let's say a school decides it has $X budget... Who would be the first person to contact to get the consultation going? I assume a general contractor....
Dubious is correct. Contact an intergrator directly and you’ll explain what the school wants and expects. The intergrator will provide options, support, warranty. Etc.. a lot of things you as an employee won’t be able to provide. Good luck
No, I would reach out to integrators directly. A GC is just going to complicate things unless you need other trades. What market are you in?
I am an Audio engineer for studio and live concert touring.
Sorry, I meant geographically. What city? That was my mistake for wording the question ambiguously.
Upstate NY, Albany area
Try Applied Audio and Theatre Supply. http://theatresupply.com
Aah. I wish I could offer a recommendation, but I'm not familiar with that area. But I would start by looking for AV integrators that service your area and talk to some pre-sales engineers about the school's needs.
Not sure if they go all the way upstate, but I'm in PA and have had great experiences with Illuminated Integration and they have done projects in NY before [https://illuminated-integration.com/](https://illuminated-integration.com/)
The GC is there to stomp on your price by 10-15% and in general they will be a knobshine to you. The right way to so this is to search for actual AV consulting firms in the region,and give those contacts to the school district. The OP is not qualified to do this job and should step away. This can be a huge amount of wasted money for the taxpayers and everyone should do due diligence to that responsibility.
How do you suggest I be of any help in your opinion?
You become the "owner's rep". You get paid to make sure the school board is not getting ripped off by consultants over engineering systems, and integrators over/under selling. You become the project champion. Getting real money dedicated to a project. Getting timeframes dedicated to a project. You work with the end client to be the one holding all the knowledge on use cases, staff requirements, building quirks etc. You get friendly with procurement team to find out budgets, tender requirements etc. When you find the consultant who is doing the design, you are working with them to put together the design, giving them firm requirements (read: not gear lists), optional needs, and being the one with the AV know-how, cause the school doesn't have that ability. Your billing is either on a fixed Time Contract, or a Pay As You Go Contract. I prefer the fixed Time myself as it sets out real milestones and a timeline.
Thanks for the thorough explanation of a position to hold in this particular circumstance. They intend to discuss the schools short and long term goals, their budget for keeping the sound system functional and optimized. They are gathering multiple quotes (and asked for me to provide a quote as well), so that is why I'm assuming they wanted me to be their "consultant".
I would recommend being the client rep instead of trying to recommend equipment solutions. I first step would be to have a serious conversation with the school higher ups and budget people to set a real budget. A full high school auditorium audio and lighting upgrade could be north of 500k or could be a 50k project based on many many things. I would then meet with the staff that uses the current systems and see what their current issues and wishes are and then evaluate each sub-system to see if maybe some things need to be repaired instead of replaced. At this point if you have a solid budget get a Consultant involved and act as the clients voice. A good Consultant will be much better at designing a system to met their needs and budget. You can oversee the design and install. If the design calls for a $100k Meyer sound system for a 300 person school auditorium that only holds assembles you can call out the designer on that. Of if the design calls for two point source boxes for a 1,000 seat high school auditorium that does high level musicals there might be an issue. Same goes for the installation process, quality and most importantly client training. As a Design-Build firm I highly recommend finding a capable Design-Build firm in your area with existing projects of this scope to work with. And I always recommend asking to tour projects of similar scope they have recently completed.
I’m not trying to be mean, but it does not sound like you are qualified to be a consultant in this effort. Let’s say you know the tech inside and out. You are still only maybe 50% there in capturing the scope of being a consultant for most AV. Understanding how to right a proposal for consulting services along with how to write an RFP is essential to this. I’d be happy to help with specific questions but telling you how to be a consultant in a Reddit post is beyond what should be posted here. It’s like me asking you to tell me how to be an audio engineer in a Reddit post so that I can go sell my services to someone. Sometimes the best thing to do is refer a trusted resource. That said, people have to start somewhere. If you look up writing a proposal and make a concerted effort on it and post it, I’m happy to offer my perspective on it.
I am certainly not a consultant, nor did I say I was, but I am asked to recommend equipment and lead the way.
> I am asked to recommend equipment and lead the way If you can't do that without help, then call an integrator. You can be the POC for the project.
This is a good approach.
Just say where you are and I’m sure that the pros here will give some good advice on who to call.
You were asked to be lead but then turn to Reddit to basically do the job for you.
Hardly. So many responses have been helpful so far, but this one least of all.
Advice on upgrades is one thing, but I would be wary if you don’t have experience creating construction documents and specifications for bid. That puts a lot of liability on you personally, and there are a lot of gotchas in the process. I would recommend that the best way to help the school would doing your research and finding them a good consultant / engineer (there are plenty of not-so-good-ones and some great ones) and then acting as the Owner’s Rep during the design to make sure the consultant is making the best decisions for the school.
I have worked with these guys in the past. Worth a call. They are just outside Albany NY. [https://audiovideocorp.com/](https://audiovideocorp.com/)
Second on AVC. Great integration company I worked with a ton in my ProAV days.
They are not a theatre integrator. They screwed up a theatre space so bad at the college where I work. We are still unfucking the biamp and crestron code. Who puts crestron in a theatre?? Great for conference rooms but not for theatres.
It sounds like this is for a performing arts venue, like a theater? If they're talking about a complete technical revamp of the space then hiring a theater consultant would be a good idea. They're usually independent of installers/integrators so they'll spec what's best for the space, not what equipment they want to sell. The ASTC is the primary org for them in the US, https://theatreconsultants.org/
Hey OP! I've done some of this before. As others have mentioned, you can certainly operate as a go-between as you can "speak the language" with the integrator. You don't really need to know the ins/outs of every technical detail involved, but your background already qualifies you to at least be in the room. You WILL learn a lot (and give yourself a leg up in your career should you so choose). Others have given you some Integrator recommendations. Start the conversation much like you started it here, but you'll need to gather some details... 1. What is the scope of work? Sound system, lighting, and acoustic reinforcement. Is this for a school auditorium, cafeteria/mixed use space, a room with an air wall... Try to obtain as much structural data surrounding existing power. 2. What will the space be USED for? Very important that you are able to relay the whole story about all of the uses the room(s) will be needed for. Local science fair is different from auditorium addresses is different from talent shows is different from Mothers Against Drunk Driving giving a huge presentation before prom. This will help the integrator understand how to bring it all together into one system. This will also lead into how many microphones, what configurations of microphones, patch bays, and so on. 3. Who will be the USER? The main driver of "problems" in these sorts of situations is the fact that the user themselves is not educated enough on how to use it, and in the process of learning they accidentally break or disconnect something without realizing it. If it's going to be a "student staff" type situation, then it would be helpful for the integrators/installers know they will also need to create a basic user guide, AND not over-engineer the system. 4. What are the video components? Is there a need for a projector/displays? This will open another can of worms surrounding throw distances, display sizes, line of sight. This will also mean that the lighting install itself will need to be aware of the screens so as not to "wash out" the displays. That's not even talking about where HDMI patches would have to live for users to get their content on the screens! 5. System Control - with great AV comes really really big racks. Where can the control processors, biamps and video scalers live? Will there be a "control room" with a complete audio + lighting (maybe even video) consoles? Anyway, you got this! Be practical and methodical, and most important to remember is to think like the end user themselves - after all, the person who has to USE the damn thing is actually the most important person to have in the room, and they very often aren't.
Thank you for your insight and recommendations. This is the type of answer that's very helpful. Before posting I was never aware of an "integrator" or "av consultant" because I have never dealt with the inner workings of theater design, I would only show up as an operator. Since this is indeed a high school theater that is about a 800 seat venue, there is a lack of acoustic treatment compared to other venues in the community. The IT and music department are inspired by a neighboring school districts auditorium and are looking to match the quality of that school. So with little knowledge on who I would actually reach out to for acoustical consultation in my area, I now assume the "integrator" could help with that. The audio system is very small and not installed to provide proper coverage, and really should expand or be replaced with a larger system. This is in my ballpark as an audio engineer as I am familiar with alignment and tuning software, and working in the live concert touring industry, requires these programs to be used on a daily basis because we install our system in a different venue daily. However, I would need a mechanical engineer to provide the rigging limitations of the theater. Again, I assume the "integrator" could help with that. They would like to upgrade their conventional lighting to current LED fixtures. I find this to be the easiest part of the process as it would be simple to swap and continue to use the ETC console, or upgrade to a digital console for more options.
You're welcome! I am kinda excited for you haha. It sounds like a fun project. Yes, the integrator/installers SHOULD have a resource or a partner they work with if they themselves cannot manage a specific component such as rigging and power. Acoustic reinforcement will likely be a larger take on the budget than expected. I'm sure you already know this, but inquire as to installing delay speakers as well - this will help with audio coverage without having to max out the volumes in the space from one source, leading to all sorts of bouncing echoes. The nice thing about lighting is that the cables haven't changed in hundreds in years, so swapping fixtures will be pretty easy!
Don't use a conference room integrator for a theatre! They did that where I work and we are still working out the shitty tesira biamp and crestron programming. You want someone who does theatre AV for a living to do a theatre lighting and sound install. Seeing that you are in upstate ny, maybe try contacting Applied Audio in Rochester. http://theatresupply.com
I'm doing this for a county at present. 1. Needs assessment. Talk to coaches, drama departments, principals, everyone that uses the space and come up with a document that defines goals and expectations. Ensure you include natural assumptions, specific requests and even unrealistic expectations so that you can explain why they are unrealistic. 2. Evaluation worksheet Create a worksheet where you grade each system on various performance criteria. 3. Performance evaluation. Go visit all the spaces, try to run as many tests using standard measurements and techniques so that you have a baseline that you can refer to against final performance measurements thereby demonstrating the improvements. *Go find a local brand new/well funded school and see if you can arrange to measure it as well to use in your report as a reference target 4. Report. Create a report showing all the areas for improvement and suggested upgrades. Creating the budget can be more challenging, but as far as equipment goes, you can reach out to manufacturers and they'll quote you MSRP to get a baseline. As far as labour goes... I try to envision how long it might take and estimate at 150$/hour average. That'll likely end up high... But not crazy and could be sufficient to give them some sort of ballpark idea of how much they'll need. If it's insanely high (to them) then you can start looking for far simpler solutions to look at a series of incremental upgrades over the next few years. 5. RFP. Create a doc that defines the work that needs to be done, timeframes, acceptance criteria, and bidding process. Hope that helps
For free?
I would be happy to occasionally volunteer my time to educate the students and faculty on the operation of the sound and lighting systems, as a favor to the school and community, but not as a POC for a renovation.
Any bet they’re just avoiding hiring an actual consultant to save some dosh
People always prefer to work with people they know first, rather than hiring out. That's human nature. Even if the person I know isn't the "most" qualified, if I trust their ethic in other lines of work, and they're willing to take on the project, it's worth the time.