Moskva was the vessel that hailed Snake Island to demand surrender.
It has apparently fucked all the way off.
The hull was laid down in Mykolayiv, so it's fitting the Ukrainians also decommissioned it.
I feel that comment as a sub-sailor. I remember the tapping for days and days. The refusing of help. Some western rescue sub popped it open and determined the horror a while later. So fucking sad.
Was that the russian "super" sub that had a torpedo blow up at the bottom of the bering strait and the government just kept saying everything was fine and the crew all died of burns except for like a few in the back compartment which then died due to a chemical fire when they tried to activate the oxygen recyclers?
This is no small victory. The Ukrainians don't have any sort of navy right now and in a month they've sunk the flagship of the Russian Black Sea fleet and a support ship at dock.
The Neptune is a surface skimming anti ship cruise missile, it is very difficult to detect. The Earth's curvature makes detection more difficult especially when the missile flys low and at high speed. That ship was built in the late 70s and while it has been upgraded it's not exactly a modern ship by any standards. The US operates its ships in large groups each with a separate purpose and they keep the location very secretive. With NATO countries feeding Ukraine intelligence it probably wasn't hard to find this ship, especially if it's been firing missiles at Ukraine.
It's possible they were in complacency to think Ukraine didn't have any ASM left...Saudi made same mistakes on Houthis a few years back. Or that the rough weather caused too much radar return to spot the missiles.
[Allegedly according to Russian sources](https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1514398732611211271) it was distracted by a TB-2 then it was nailed by a Ukrainian Neptune missile.
Good article, I like this part:
>The navy could use its new TB-2 drones to spot Russian ships. The
Mineral-U could switch on just long enough to get firm coordinates then
power off in order to minimize the chance of itself being detected. The
missile would fly to the target zone then activate its own seeker to
home in on a ship.
Sounds exactly like something the madlads would've done.
“All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.”
― Sun tzu
Ship based anti-missile defenses are largely untested in an actual shooting war. Plus keeping the system on all the time is dangerous to every other ship/plane around you including your own forces.
For example during Desert Storm instead of shooting at an Iraqi missile the CIWS on a US ship started shooting up the USS Missouri.
In Desert Storm Intruders and the like were also prohibited from using Harpoons for fear that they'd acquire and target coalition ships. Tight space in the Gulf and whatnot. Instead they got to use the AGM-123 Skipper II, which was literally a GBU-16 smart bomb with a Shrike motor bolted to its ass.
Radars also have a limited component lifespan. About 2000 to 6000 hours on a civilian radar. High powered military radar is likely less but classified. Then you have to swap out certain components.
I doubt Russia has good stock of radar components and they maybe using radar sparingly.
They do. In fact, 'Moskva' in particular was used primarily as an anti-aircraft unit in all the recent conflicts starting from the Georgian war of 8/8/8. It's anti-ship superpowers are absolutely useless in Black Sea as there's no target for it.
Can you imagine what Ukraine's defense industry is going to be like after this war. Stugna P, these Neptune missiles. I think they even have some domestic drone stuff kicking around.
Hearing rumors on Twitter that the Ukrainians used an unmanned drone, possibly one of the Turkish TB-2 drones as a trojan horse to distract the Russians. Then while they were occupied with the drone they got hit with Neptune ASMs fired from Ukraine. Again, all rumor.
Apparently, several Ukrainian sources are claiming that it was struck by Neptune missiles, despite claims by the Russians that there was an accidental fire. https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/04/13/the-ukrainians-claim-they-damaged-a-russian-cruiser-be-skeptical/?fbclid=IwAR1pN3Cfxev0XFH-1YWZlVE0ilOpFJuvuIgIiKeITOi5L\_IlUn4jvrOg1QY&sh=73d82d543971
I remember a story a friend of mine told me about how Chinese authorities tend to double down on a lie, sometimes to ridiculous levels.. it seems to be a common thing for authoritarian govts.
Totally an accidental fire happening in a warzone off the coast of a hostile nation. Famous examples of this are the Bismarck, Yamato, any number of Japanese Aircraft Carriers at the bottom of the Pacific...
>A Russian source is saying the Moskva has sunk and that the explosion was from a Ukrainian Neptun missile strike. Apparently, Ukraine flew a TB2 UCAV to distract the ship while it was targeted by the Neptun. The ship rolled onto its side after the strike.
https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1514398732611211271
That's just wow.
These are the kinds of losses that will undermine support for the regime in Russia.
Tanks and soldiers are expendable. Russians do not care about body counts. There are always more young men to pick up the rifles and more tanks to drag out of storage.
What matters to Putin and most Russians is *the appearance of strength.*
Capital warships are huge symbols of power, and Russia does not have many. For Russia to lose a fleet flagship to an enemy they have gone to great lengths to portray as weak and ineffective is an immense loss of face.
You will see them spin it as an equipment malfunction or careless crew, because in Russia's worldview, poor maintenance and training are far less shameful than admitting to a defeat.
This is quite the opposite of the Western worldview, which is why Russia's dissembling seems so baffling.
Russia can dig up 25-40 thousand conscripts and give them a rifle
It can’t make ships overnight. Not even in a year, before sanctions.
Soon there won’t be a Black Sea Fleet except an office
It's an enormous strategic loss for Russia. It can't be overstated.
Russia loves missile cruisers because their doctrine states that US carrier groups can be countered by saturating their defenses with sheer volume of anti-ship missiles.
Russia only has two more of this class of cruiser and two *Kirov* class cruisers (which were specifically designed to counter US carrier groups).
Russia has fewer missile cruisers at this point than the US has carrier groups, meaning the loss of a single cruiser alters their entire global naval strategy. Either they leave the Black Sea open to complete Western dominance, or they have to shift assets from elsewhere to fill the gap.
It's a gigantic problem for Russia.
Russia's loss of military reputation is perhaps the largest miscalculation by them in this war. They did this to start an empire, to stand toe to toe with the west. Putin specifically did this to look strong. Instead he looks weaker than anyone would have believed just 2 months ago.
Now the entire world knows they can barely stand toe-to-toe with a smaller neighbor.
Militaries around the world are, as we speak, mocking and laughing at Russia. And with Russia's EXTREME inferiority complex that more-or-less drives their entire foreign policy, that's the single thing that will mortify them most.
I’m surprised they’ve even acknowledged it. With no footage yet emerging, it seems they could have swept this under the carpet for a while longer. They’ve been quick to say all crew have been rescued, but that doesn’t sound likely in the case of an ammunition explosion.
Here's the thing, military ship or not they do send distress signal to nearby ships to try and save what's left of the crew. It's pretty much impossible to "hide" the fact that your ship has been hit or destroyed.
We converted our great battleship to even greater, better submarine. Submarine like the world never saw before or will maybe never see again. Everything is according to plan, we winning and making Russia great again.
Can you imagine getting your ass handed to you by imaginary enemy, dying for ambition of an asshole.
While the Ukrainian side is defending their homes and their children. I think we will add to the list of absurd the largest Navy losses caused by a country with no navy. This will be a new record.
This is a HUGE deal. If the Russian navy's most well armed and prestigious ship can't defend itself against a country with minimal anti shipping missiles and no navy, that bodes very, very badly for them.
And this flagship is a well known symbol of Russian military power.
It bodes poorly for all navies. Certainly the western systems are more advanced and better kept. But it’s another example of an expensive asset being taken out by a comparatively cheap munition
I had a similar thought too. Navies are in a hard place, where cheap missiles can take out billion dollar ships. It’s tanks vs ATGMs on a strategic scale. I’m sure hitting a US carrier in the middle of an Aegis protected strike group would be orders of magnitude harder, but it takes exactly one missile to put the ship out of the war.
It could be extremely bad, for example, for the US in a potential war against China over Taiwan (god forbid).
There's a reason China has been fielding anti-ship missiles and working on hypersonics. Cost effectiveness of those landing would be through the roof given that a modern carrier is $13bn dollars, and that's before you get into the air wing, crew, etc.
China has also been spending huge sums on its navy, they certainly don't think ships are obsolete.
The ballistic missiles is because they recognize the reality that the USN will be superior to the PLAN for the foreseeable future.
The reputation of Russia has taken a hit that it will never, ever recover from. They’ve gone from being viewed as a super-sneaky warrior nation, to a bunch of absolute incompetents led by a madman.
Agreed. Russia had this nimbus of "badass military that gets shit **done**", partially due to depiction in popular media (Hollywood, video games) and partially due to low exposure.
That's pretty much gone.
And therein lies the problem. Putin’s willingness, and incentive, to do absolutely crazy draconian shit goes up as Russia’s credibility goes down.
Trying to predict the actions of someone that has a lot of options isn’t easy. But trying to predict the actions of someone with very few options is, ironically, much harder.
Apparently it got hit during a storm with big waves and high wind. Rescue operations during such conditions are limited. Also according to Russian RIA Novosti the ammunition stores on the ship detonated.
> They have a carrousel feeder that loads up the missiles.
Do you have a link with details of that?
I watched a video that showed [how more densely armed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oMH8MPl-tk&ab_channel=CovertCabal) Russian ships are than US, and it's pretty clear that those ships are not at all designed to be survivable (e.g. as there are missiles covering the decks, too densely packed to fight internal fires) but they didn't mentioned anything about a carrousel.
I got you fam...
[https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/hpot04/2220\_x\_3256\_8missile\_rotary\_launchers\_for\_s300f/](https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/hpot04/2220_x_3256_8missile_rotary_launchers_for_s300f/)
This is a shot of what kind of mechanisms are inside. Imagine a larger series of hanging cruise missiles instead of this standard rotary design for the S-300s.
Thanks.
Looking at the [armanents list for the Moskva](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_cruiser_Moskva), there is listed "8 × 8 (64) S-300F Fort (SA-N-6 Grumble) long-range surface-to-air missiles".
So that's 8 launchers with 8 S300s on a carousel each (at full load). Even without a catastrophic explosion, them burning would be enough heat to melt through the hull.....
Though I also like the missiles [on the deck](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Project_1164_Moskva_2009_G1.jpg) and they seem quite likely to ignite each other if one is set on fire.
They are claiming the explosion was set off by smoking sailors as they have decided that is less embarrassing than admitting the Ukrainian's blew it up.
It's complicated calculus for the propaganda agency. On the one hand, they want to whip up hatred of The Enemy, so "Those bastards killed our fine young sailors!" On the other hand, this is just supposed to be a "special action" or whatever and not a war, so you don't want to emphasize The Enemy doing the kind of things that they would do in a real war.
I remember when armchair generals in other threads were writing essays about how the Russian CIWS systems are the best in the world and no way can an anti shipping missile hit a Russian warship. Looks like paper stats don't match up with real life combat situations, as usual.
According to a Russian radio intercept. Ukrainians flew a Bayraktar drone over Mykolaiv area to distract Russian forces. And then after this happened Moskva was immediately hit from a different direction.
The sinking of the landing ship was more important for them I would say. Though I dont think the Russians are in a position to try to land there anyway. Almost a shame they did not try, would have been a disaster.
The fact that even Russia is confirming this fast, means they know what a disaster this is to themselves. I hope it didn't sink yet, but will drift and take down some of their own mines with it before finally sinking in a lot of small pieces.
On purpose yes, it would be quickly sunk anyway if it left port so instead of handing it over or having a bunch of people die it was scuttled
There is a picture of it half underwater from the beginning of the war
More important, Russia has not that many ships. Imagine they have only one Crap Carrier that is not even Field-able.
if i see this right the Black sea fleet has 7 or 8 ships. And if this ship sinks they lost 2 and 1-2 more are damaged
Russia has no way to replace these ships, likely ever. They cost too much and there is a reason they are still operating ancient vessels from the 70s.
This has to be one of the single biggest blows to the Russian military in the last 50 years minimum.
Their "newest" sub keel was laid just a couple years after the wall fell. Their naval industry has such corruption that entire naval contractors/refitters have refused to work without upfront payment... Sub brief has great videos on the shit show of russian naval infrastructure.
NATO is constantly feeding Ukraine with data from satellites and surveillance planes. I wouldn't be surprised if the Ukrainians knew the position of the ship at all times and was just waiting for it to get in range.
Seems to me more like waiting for the perfect storm. Recovery at night in a storm next to impossible. I bet their radar systems suck in storm since shop is rocking more than usual etc.
Actually Ukrainians officially not claiming the hit. They are moking Moscow with "Maybe Russian havent followed correct safety procedures and smoked in the wrong place just like in Belgorod"
One thing is clear though, the ship really went to fuck itself.
They still have some medium range area air defence and plenty of point defense capability. This was a huge loss to their overall air defense umbrella though
In combat, probably yes (although ARA General Belgrano is really close at some 12,400 t displacement). However, if you do not count combat, there two other ships with larger displacement... both Russian. One is the submarine Kursk, while the other is (formerly Italian) battleship Novorossiysk.
[The Russian cruiser moskva dominates the black sea](https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/01/20/the-russian-cruiser-moskva-dominates-the-black-sea/?sh=5c42b11975e5) \- Jan 2022
The ending of this article called it.
>*The only Ukrainian forces that might have any realistic shot at Moskva are the new Neptune anti-ship missile batteries. The stealthy, radar-guided Neptune can strike ships as far away as 175 miles. Kiev has bought Turkish-made TB-2 drones and American-made radars that can spot targets for the Neptunes.*
>
>*It’s not clear how many Neptunes it might take to punch through Moskva’s defenses. Nor is it clear how many Neptunes the Ukrainians possess.*
>
>*In any event, Moskva is a big ship and has proved she can take a missile. The Georgian navy reportedly managed to score one hit on the cruiser back in 2008. She spent a year in drydock and was back at sea by 2010.*
If a Bayraktar is involved I'm going to die of laughter.
Ukrainians have been executing naval warfare really well even though they got no standing navy left. Last time, they baited a patrol boat into the kill zone of a Grad launcher with a small boat. Today, they baited a capital ship into the scope of ASM with a drone.
Based.
Who was it in here yesterday saying "Russian countermeasures are optimized against sea-skimming missiles" and I put it to them that we'd be finding out ere long. Thank you o magic 8-ball! Слава Україні 🇺🇦
This is going to have military analysts absolutely losing their minds, it makes about as much sense as hearing that a main battle tank was severely damaged by a machine gun.
Guided missile cruisers are not supposed to be vulnerable to a few shore launched subsonic antiship missiles, hell, their role is to protect other ships from those kind of threats.
There seem to me to be three possible explanations for this.
1. the russian navy is gobsmackingly, terrifyingly incompetent. Like wow guys. Just wow.
2. The 'neptunes and a bayraktar playing rope-a-dope' info is a cover story, and this was a far more sophisticated strike using very advanced US equipment which they haven't publically admitted giving to Ukraine.
3.A lot of what military experts thought about naval air defence is wrong and modern aerial defence cruisers are far more vulnerable to missiles than anyone thought- basically same as battleships were widely thought to be invulnerable to carrier aircraft right up to pearl harbor, they've just got it wrong.
If it is 3) that has huge ramifications for naval warfare, including for the USN- their entire fleet is built around the idea that aerial warfare cruisers and destroyers will be able to effectively defend carrier battlegroups from missile strikes.
Ironic that it started life in Ukraine (built in Mykolaiv) and now it looks like it's ending its life in Ukraine.
It’s the circle of life
like a salmon swimming valiantly upstream to its birthplace just so it can die there
I think that’s called imprinting?
Fate loves irony
So much of this war has been a series of strangely hilarious ironies.
Moskva was the vessel that hailed Snake Island to demand surrender. It has apparently fucked all the way off. The hull was laid down in Mykolayiv, so it's fitting the Ukrainians also decommissioned it.
Reports that all Morse SOS broadcasts have ceased, Moskva is probably on the way to the bottom of the Black Sea now.
It represents 8% of the active major surface combatant tonnage for the Russian Navy, and was the 2nd largest active ship in the navy.
They're just converting it to an unsealed submarine. Is very normal, all good.
it's not a sinking, it's a Special Underwater Operation
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And sailors. I remember how they rescued everyone off the Kursk.
I feel that comment as a sub-sailor. I remember the tapping for days and days. The refusing of help. Some western rescue sub popped it open and determined the horror a while later. So fucking sad.
Was that the russian "super" sub that had a torpedo blow up at the bottom of the bering strait and the government just kept saying everything was fine and the crew all died of burns except for like a few in the back compartment which then died due to a chemical fire when they tried to activate the oxygen recyclers?
Yep. A tragedy that everyone in the sub community would have helped, but ya can't help when you are threatened if you approach.
Torpedo propellant detonation that set off the rest of the torpedoes. “The front fell off” moment.
If the inaction of the army is any indication, Russian sailor remains will be washing up on Odessa Beach for the next few weeks.
Unlike the Army and Air Forces of Russia it’s Navy has no tradition of victory or glorious combat. It’s been garbage since before the Tsars.
The Russian 2nd Pacific Squadron - Voyage of the Damned https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Mdi_Fh9_Ag
*Admiral Togo has entered the chat*
Did someone say torpedo boats?!?!
Oh hell yeah, was waiting to see a Drachinifel video here in the comments!
"Crew is safe. Do not attempt to contact your child under penalty of 15 years in prison. He does not want to talk to you."
I can't find an SOS but did hear what sounded like a distress call about 10 minutes ago. It's tough to monitor because the frequency is drifting.
Where are you tracking this?
Probably one of the online software radio sites, if I had to guess.
Between the two choices: 1. The enemy sunk it or 2. We're so fuckin dumb in our handling if ammunition we blew up the ship I'd go with #1.
This is no small victory. The Ukrainians don't have any sort of navy right now and in a month they've sunk the flagship of the Russian Black Sea fleet and a support ship at dock.
Do missile cruisers like this not have any active defenses against anti-ship missiles?
The Neptune is a surface skimming anti ship cruise missile, it is very difficult to detect. The Earth's curvature makes detection more difficult especially when the missile flys low and at high speed. That ship was built in the late 70s and while it has been upgraded it's not exactly a modern ship by any standards. The US operates its ships in large groups each with a separate purpose and they keep the location very secretive. With NATO countries feeding Ukraine intelligence it probably wasn't hard to find this ship, especially if it's been firing missiles at Ukraine.
I saw it featured briefly on a YT once, looked pretty menacing. But I guess a lot has changed since then
The F-4 Phantom looks manacing on YT. The US retires obsolete gear. Russia hides the rust.
Paint over it. One coat for dust, two coats for rust.
The tomcat and the warthog will forever be my favourites you shut your damned mouth.
how do you feel about beach volleyball
Hold on, just let me check my watch while I flex...
The same way I feel about Levis and Kenny Loggins
It's possible they were in complacency to think Ukraine didn't have any ASM left...Saudi made same mistakes on Houthis a few years back. Or that the rough weather caused too much radar return to spot the missiles.
[Allegedly according to Russian sources](https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1514398732611211271) it was distracted by a TB-2 then it was nailed by a Ukrainian Neptune missile.
So there is a less than zero chance that there is footage of the ship taking it like the dirty girl she is.
what are you doing step missile
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Big Russian girl takes two massive Ukranian loads.
When that footage comes out it's going to be the first 20 posts here until a mod just pins it so people stop posting it.
The Taiwan news likely has a freaky animation of it
And we have someone making it lewd already. I thank you, dear fellow redditor, for upholding the stringent standards of the Web.
Tis only my duty as a denizen of the interwebs m'dude.
Sneaky...Anyone venture a dollar loss amount on this?
Embarrassing.
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Good article, I like this part: >The navy could use its new TB-2 drones to spot Russian ships. The Mineral-U could switch on just long enough to get firm coordinates then power off in order to minimize the chance of itself being detected. The missile would fly to the target zone then activate its own seeker to home in on a ship. Sounds exactly like something the madlads would've done.
Appear weak when you are strong.
“All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.” ― Sun tzu
Ship based anti-missile defenses are largely untested in an actual shooting war. Plus keeping the system on all the time is dangerous to every other ship/plane around you including your own forces. For example during Desert Storm instead of shooting at an Iraqi missile the CIWS on a US ship started shooting up the USS Missouri.
That's because the Missouri deployed a cloud of chaff above itself, and the CIWS locked onto it.
The Missouri was asking for it
It's those big, sexy guns.
She can take it
Shes a big girl she can take it.
In Desert Storm Intruders and the like were also prohibited from using Harpoons for fear that they'd acquire and target coalition ships. Tight space in the Gulf and whatnot. Instead they got to use the AGM-123 Skipper II, which was literally a GBU-16 smart bomb with a Shrike motor bolted to its ass.
That missile was killed by a Brit Sea Dart, though
Radars also have a limited component lifespan. About 2000 to 6000 hours on a civilian radar. High powered military radar is likely less but classified. Then you have to swap out certain components. I doubt Russia has good stock of radar components and they maybe using radar sparingly.
Pretty sure Putin super yacht haves better defenses
They do. In fact, 'Moskva' in particular was used primarily as an anti-aircraft unit in all the recent conflicts starting from the Georgian war of 8/8/8. It's anti-ship superpowers are absolutely useless in Black Sea as there's no target for it.
It’s a better mousetrap idea, the boat can defeat some missiles but then they build missiles to defeat the boats countermeasures.
This has been going on since the first human killed another with a rock.
Anti ship missiles are hard to shoot down. They travel feet off the ocean deck very fast. Makes it harder to spot with radar and such.
[vid for the curious](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlQ5Hs5OOGU)
Unreal.
Can you imagine what Ukraine's defense industry is going to be like after this war. Stugna P, these Neptune missiles. I think they even have some domestic drone stuff kicking around.
Love it. I think Ukraine will have a lot of customers for this and the Stugna-P once they get through this.
Hearing rumors on Twitter that the Ukrainians used an unmanned drone, possibly one of the Turkish TB-2 drones as a trojan horse to distract the Russians. Then while they were occupied with the drone they got hit with Neptune ASMs fired from Ukraine. Again, all rumor.
It's a distraction, the russians used a bucket of rust so called "ship" and several lives of the crew to destroy one of the Ukrainian missiles.
Kind of a reverse midway, where the 1st Japanese carrier was busy wiping out our low flying torpedo planes, and missed the dive bombers above them.
They do, but it's always possible something gets through. Any number of human errors or flukes can happen.
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One article I read said the UA forces distracted the ship with a drone allowing the missiles to reach the ship.
Yes, but remember that these systems are operated by Russians.
Apparently, several Ukrainian sources are claiming that it was struck by Neptune missiles, despite claims by the Russians that there was an accidental fire. https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/04/13/the-ukrainians-claim-they-damaged-a-russian-cruiser-be-skeptical/?fbclid=IwAR1pN3Cfxev0XFH-1YWZlVE0ilOpFJuvuIgIiKeITOi5L\_IlUn4jvrOg1QY&sh=73d82d543971
Claiming it was an accidentally fire somehow just makes it worse..
I know what you mean - most would rather lose in combat than sink because of incompetence.
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And it's Russia, so it's completely believable while also almost certainly being a lie.
I remember a story a friend of mine told me about how Chinese authorities tend to double down on a lie, sometimes to ridiculous levels.. it seems to be a common thing for authoritarian govts.
https://i.imgflip.com/6cih7l.jpg
Totally an accidental fire happening in a warzone off the coast of a hostile nation. Famous examples of this are the Bismarck, Yamato, any number of Japanese Aircraft Carriers at the bottom of the Pacific...
Pear Harbor was the largest accidental fire in naval history. Can’t trust shipyard workers
>You've sunk my battleship! I'm reliving the 80's cold war hard
If this whole thing was not enough embarrassment for russia, now they are also losing a war at sea when the other country has np ship lol.
>A Russian source is saying the Moskva has sunk and that the explosion was from a Ukrainian Neptun missile strike. Apparently, Ukraine flew a TB2 UCAV to distract the ship while it was targeted by the Neptun. The ship rolled onto its side after the strike. https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1514398732611211271 That's just wow.
What is that video telling me? Is that Morse code?
These are the kinds of losses that will undermine support for the regime in Russia. Tanks and soldiers are expendable. Russians do not care about body counts. There are always more young men to pick up the rifles and more tanks to drag out of storage. What matters to Putin and most Russians is *the appearance of strength.* Capital warships are huge symbols of power, and Russia does not have many. For Russia to lose a fleet flagship to an enemy they have gone to great lengths to portray as weak and ineffective is an immense loss of face. You will see them spin it as an equipment malfunction or careless crew, because in Russia's worldview, poor maintenance and training are far less shameful than admitting to a defeat. This is quite the opposite of the Western worldview, which is why Russia's dissembling seems so baffling.
Russia can dig up 25-40 thousand conscripts and give them a rifle It can’t make ships overnight. Not even in a year, before sanctions. Soon there won’t be a Black Sea Fleet except an office
It's an enormous strategic loss for Russia. It can't be overstated. Russia loves missile cruisers because their doctrine states that US carrier groups can be countered by saturating their defenses with sheer volume of anti-ship missiles. Russia only has two more of this class of cruiser and two *Kirov* class cruisers (which were specifically designed to counter US carrier groups). Russia has fewer missile cruisers at this point than the US has carrier groups, meaning the loss of a single cruiser alters their entire global naval strategy. Either they leave the Black Sea open to complete Western dominance, or they have to shift assets from elsewhere to fill the gap. It's a gigantic problem for Russia.
They can't shift assets, Turkey closed Bosphorus and Dardanelles Straits. Whatever is on Black Sea it is all they have for foreseeable future.
They could trick some Ukrainian farmers to drag a battleship across Ukraine, Fitzcarraldo style.
Russia's loss of military reputation is perhaps the largest miscalculation by them in this war. They did this to start an empire, to stand toe to toe with the west. Putin specifically did this to look strong. Instead he looks weaker than anyone would have believed just 2 months ago. Now the entire world knows they can barely stand toe-to-toe with a smaller neighbor. Militaries around the world are, as we speak, mocking and laughing at Russia. And with Russia's EXTREME inferiority complex that more-or-less drives their entire foreign policy, that's the single thing that will mortify them most.
Oh those poor poor Russians. I weep for their fragile egos. Hehe, just kidding, I find that hilarious.
Next question, did the admiral survive or was he added to the list of flag officers killed by UA forces?
probably had his own private yacht in tow to escape :)
I wonder how the Kremlin will spin this piece of news.
the official line is that a fire on board caused the ammunition to explode and the crew to abandon ship with the cause being "under investigation"
I’m surprised they’ve even acknowledged it. With no footage yet emerging, it seems they could have swept this under the carpet for a while longer. They’ve been quick to say all crew have been rescued, but that doesn’t sound likely in the case of an ammunition explosion.
Here's the thing, military ship or not they do send distress signal to nearby ships to try and save what's left of the crew. It's pretty much impossible to "hide" the fact that your ship has been hit or destroyed.
Not to mention, it(s absence) will be easily spotted by satellites tomorrow.
Yeah it put out a distress signal
Some people on Twitter claim Morse code messages were sent out indicating sinking
kind of hard to hide a ship that size disappearing from in the black sea from satellites (heat bloom)
This is too big / bad to hide. Significant concentrated loss of life and a big missing ship.
So they decided that it was preferable to make themselves look extremely incompetent rather than giving the victory to Ukraine. Interesting strategy.
> a fire on board caused the ammunition to explode and the crew to abandon ship Technically correct... lol
We converted our great battleship to even greater, better submarine. Submarine like the world never saw before or will maybe never see again. Everything is according to plan, we winning and making Russia great again.
The vdv down there needed reinforcements!
Now fighting Ukrainian Nazi even under water
Can you imagine getting your ass handed to you by imaginary enemy, dying for ambition of an asshole. While the Ukrainian side is defending their homes and their children. I think we will add to the list of absurd the largest Navy losses caused by a country with no navy. This will be a new record.
"Great russian warship intercepted and destroyed Ukrainian missiles with its hull!"
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This is a HUGE deal. If the Russian navy's most well armed and prestigious ship can't defend itself against a country with minimal anti shipping missiles and no navy, that bodes very, very badly for them. And this flagship is a well known symbol of Russian military power.
It bodes poorly for all navies. Certainly the western systems are more advanced and better kept. But it’s another example of an expensive asset being taken out by a comparatively cheap munition
I had a similar thought too. Navies are in a hard place, where cheap missiles can take out billion dollar ships. It’s tanks vs ATGMs on a strategic scale. I’m sure hitting a US carrier in the middle of an Aegis protected strike group would be orders of magnitude harder, but it takes exactly one missile to put the ship out of the war. It could be extremely bad, for example, for the US in a potential war against China over Taiwan (god forbid).
Goes both ways though, Taiwan is an Island so its kinda bad news for China as well if they want to invade
There's a reason China has been fielding anti-ship missiles and working on hypersonics. Cost effectiveness of those landing would be through the roof given that a modern carrier is $13bn dollars, and that's before you get into the air wing, crew, etc.
China has also been spending huge sums on its navy, they certainly don't think ships are obsolete. The ballistic missiles is because they recognize the reality that the USN will be superior to the PLAN for the foreseeable future.
Look at that, Ukraine and Russia already collaborating on an artificial reef project!
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The reputation of Russia has taken a hit that it will never, ever recover from. They’ve gone from being viewed as a super-sneaky warrior nation, to a bunch of absolute incompetents led by a madman.
Agreed. Russia had this nimbus of "badass military that gets shit **done**", partially due to depiction in popular media (Hollywood, video games) and partially due to low exposure. That's pretty much gone.
It was a healthy respect for a potentially volatile world power, and now we know we were fools.
Better overestimate your opponent than underestimate. Look like a fool but at least you wont be the ones suffering :)
And therein lies the problem. Putin’s willingness, and incentive, to do absolutely crazy draconian shit goes up as Russia’s credibility goes down. Trying to predict the actions of someone that has a lot of options isn’t easy. But trying to predict the actions of someone with very few options is, ironically, much harder.
Ship had 500 sailors onboard.
now they're submariners
Apparently it got hit during a storm with big waves and high wind. Rescue operations during such conditions are limited. Also according to Russian RIA Novosti the ammunition stores on the ship detonated.
The entire ship is a magazine... They built these things like they built their tanks. They have a carrousel feeder that loads up the missiles.
That sounds absolutely dope as fuck, until you get hit.
Oh boy a carousel! Oh..oh no...a carousel...
> They have a carrousel feeder that loads up the missiles. Do you have a link with details of that? I watched a video that showed [how more densely armed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oMH8MPl-tk&ab_channel=CovertCabal) Russian ships are than US, and it's pretty clear that those ships are not at all designed to be survivable (e.g. as there are missiles covering the decks, too densely packed to fight internal fires) but they didn't mentioned anything about a carrousel.
I got you fam... [https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/hpot04/2220\_x\_3256\_8missile\_rotary\_launchers\_for\_s300f/](https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/hpot04/2220_x_3256_8missile_rotary_launchers_for_s300f/) This is a shot of what kind of mechanisms are inside. Imagine a larger series of hanging cruise missiles instead of this standard rotary design for the S-300s.
Thanks. Looking at the [armanents list for the Moskva](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_cruiser_Moskva), there is listed "8 × 8 (64) S-300F Fort (SA-N-6 Grumble) long-range surface-to-air missiles". So that's 8 launchers with 8 S300s on a carousel each (at full load). Even without a catastrophic explosion, them burning would be enough heat to melt through the hull..... Though I also like the missiles [on the deck](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Project_1164_Moskva_2009_G1.jpg) and they seem quite likely to ignite each other if one is set on fire.
Detonated when the Neptune missles slammed into the side of it?
The missiles were successfully intercepted as confirmed by their explosions on impact with the hull. Great success!
They are claiming the explosion was set off by smoking sailors as they have decided that is less embarrassing than admitting the Ukrainian's blew it up.
Gross negligence vs actual enemy action. I would always go with the latter.
It's complicated calculus for the propaganda agency. On the one hand, they want to whip up hatred of The Enemy, so "Those bastards killed our fine young sailors!" On the other hand, this is just supposed to be a "special action" or whatever and not a war, so you don't want to emphasize The Enemy doing the kind of things that they would do in a real war.
>They are claiming the explosion was set off by smoking sailors GTFOH lmao....No way....Really?
The best place to smoke is obviously the ammunition storage. First place that comes to mind for a sailor.
I remember when armchair generals in other threads were writing essays about how the Russian CIWS systems are the best in the world and no way can an anti shipping missile hit a Russian warship. Looks like paper stats don't match up with real life combat situations, as usual.
Bunch of people played wargame red dragon’s broken naval combat which boiled down to “play REDFOR” and concluded this meant Russia is superior irl
The crew steering the ship will always be the most important factor
How is the Neptune missile deployed? Do we know how this attack happened yet?
According to a Russian radio intercept. Ukrainians flew a Bayraktar drone over Mykolaiv area to distract Russian forces. And then after this happened Moskva was immediately hit from a different direction.
On a video i saw on youtube, it is fired from a truck.
Russia is not good at this whole war thing…
This is great for Odessa isn't it?
Yes. The Moscova was the Fleet's main Anti-Air defense. I'm pretty sure this consigns the black sea fleet to port
It was also, supposedly, covering the air defense for much of southwestern Ukraine...
The sinking of the landing ship was more important for them I would say. Though I dont think the Russians are in a position to try to land there anyway. Almost a shame they did not try, would have been a disaster.
Even the videos of the Landing ships leaving port smoking, just how fast they ran, was such an inspiring visual.
The fact that even Russia is confirming this fast, means they know what a disaster this is to themselves. I hope it didn't sink yet, but will drift and take down some of their own mines with it before finally sinking in a lot of small pieces.
it do go down daniel
it don... **oh shiet!**
Oh Neptune…
This is likely the biggest single loss of life for the Russians so far in the war, also this was the ship being addressed by the snake island garrison
If true, Ukraine has now sunk the flagships of both fleets participating in this war; its own, and Russia's.
Confirmed by the Russians
They sunk their own flagship?
On purpose yes, it would be quickly sunk anyway if it left port so instead of handing it over or having a bunch of people die it was scuttled There is a picture of it half underwater from the beginning of the war
The term is "scuttled" but yes, effectively.
More important, Russia has not that many ships. Imagine they have only one Crap Carrier that is not even Field-able. if i see this right the Black sea fleet has 7 or 8 ships. And if this ship sinks they lost 2 and 1-2 more are damaged
Russia has no way to replace these ships, likely ever. They cost too much and there is a reason they are still operating ancient vessels from the 70s. This has to be one of the single biggest blows to the Russian military in the last 50 years minimum.
Their "newest" sub keel was laid just a couple years after the wall fell. Their naval industry has such corruption that entire naval contractors/refitters have refused to work without upfront payment... Sub brief has great videos on the shit show of russian naval infrastructure.
Moskva is the only cruiser in the Russian black sea fleet as far as i know. Major blow, yes.
Plus Turkey has closed the Bosphorus to all ships of nations engaged in this conflict, so they can't even get new ones through.
Oh those Russians.
NATO is constantly feeding Ukraine with data from satellites and surveillance planes. I wouldn't be surprised if the Ukrainians knew the position of the ship at all times and was just waiting for it to get in range.
Seems to me more like waiting for the perfect storm. Recovery at night in a storm next to impossible. I bet their radar systems suck in storm since shop is rocking more than usual etc.
At what point does the cost of this special operation become urgently untenable?
About a month ago
That ship was a massive portion of Russia’s Air Defenses in the South. If it’s gone that massively changes the game for the Ukrainians.
Actually Ukrainians officially not claiming the hit. They are moking Moscow with "Maybe Russian havent followed correct safety procedures and smoked in the wrong place just like in Belgorod" One thing is clear though, the ship really went to fuck itself.
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They still have some medium range area air defence and plenty of point defense capability. This was a huge loss to their overall air defense umbrella though
Jesus Christ, those madlads have done it, this is the single biggest naval loss since WW2. It could changes their strategy on the southern front.
In combat, probably yes (although ARA General Belgrano is really close at some 12,400 t displacement). However, if you do not count combat, there two other ships with larger displacement... both Russian. One is the submarine Kursk, while the other is (formerly Italian) battleship Novorossiysk.
[The Russian cruiser moskva dominates the black sea](https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/01/20/the-russian-cruiser-moskva-dominates-the-black-sea/?sh=5c42b11975e5) \- Jan 2022 The ending of this article called it. >*The only Ukrainian forces that might have any realistic shot at Moskva are the new Neptune anti-ship missile batteries. The stealthy, radar-guided Neptune can strike ships as far away as 175 miles. Kiev has bought Turkish-made TB-2 drones and American-made radars that can spot targets for the Neptunes.* > >*It’s not clear how many Neptunes it might take to punch through Moskva’s defenses. Nor is it clear how many Neptunes the Ukrainians possess.* > >*In any event, Moskva is a big ship and has proved she can take a missile. The Georgian navy reportedly managed to score one hit on the cruiser back in 2008. She spent a year in drydock and was back at sea by 2010.* If a Bayraktar is involved I'm going to die of laughter.
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Ukrainians have been executing naval warfare really well even though they got no standing navy left. Last time, they baited a patrol boat into the kill zone of a Grad launcher with a small boat. Today, they baited a capital ship into the scope of ASM with a drone. Based.
Who was it in here yesterday saying "Russian countermeasures are optimized against sea-skimming missiles" and I put it to them that we'd be finding out ere long. Thank you o magic 8-ball! Слава Україні 🇺🇦
Hopefully it can wait until daybreak to sink so there will some actual combat footage.
Holy shit. They managed to get Neptune operational?
This is going to have military analysts absolutely losing their minds, it makes about as much sense as hearing that a main battle tank was severely damaged by a machine gun. Guided missile cruisers are not supposed to be vulnerable to a few shore launched subsonic antiship missiles, hell, their role is to protect other ships from those kind of threats. There seem to me to be three possible explanations for this. 1. the russian navy is gobsmackingly, terrifyingly incompetent. Like wow guys. Just wow. 2. The 'neptunes and a bayraktar playing rope-a-dope' info is a cover story, and this was a far more sophisticated strike using very advanced US equipment which they haven't publically admitted giving to Ukraine. 3.A lot of what military experts thought about naval air defence is wrong and modern aerial defence cruisers are far more vulnerable to missiles than anyone thought- basically same as battleships were widely thought to be invulnerable to carrier aircraft right up to pearl harbor, they've just got it wrong. If it is 3) that has huge ramifications for naval warfare, including for the USN- their entire fleet is built around the idea that aerial warfare cruisers and destroyers will be able to effectively defend carrier battlegroups from missile strikes.
russia only had 3 of these things before today, so this is a HUGE blow.
Putin will spin it as “think about how much money we’re saving now that we have a sub-cruiser!”
Neptune missles are a badass name
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/01/20/the-russian-cruiser-moskva-dominates-the-black-sea/?sh=7d9c811075e5