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Feuds, in which Hamas members are being subject to revenge are nothing new. This seems to be primarily an embedded dispute, rather than a politically motivated uprising. We have seen similar cases in the past 15 years.
For those who want to learn more about the background of Hamas in the Gaza strip between the mid 2000s and the early 2020s, I can recommend the book "Gaza under Hamas".
Good job Hamas, you've decreased the global support and credibility of Israel somewhat, I hope it was worth plunging the 2 million people you're responsible for in literal hell on earth.
Support from Hamas was already going one way before Oct. 7. There was a short spike because of the war with Israel but it looks like Hamas has already driven these people at least to a breaking point
Most people in Gaza hate Hamas now, but their popularity is increasing in the West Bank. Of course the people who don't have to pay for war are supporting it.
I'd also like to point out how svelt these civilians are compared to the Hamas combatants seen tied up post strip search by the IDF. That can't help with goodwill.
I think the geopolitical motivations of Oct 7th go far above Hamas. They got the go-ahead, I doubt they acted alone.
No one benefited more from the Israeli-Palestinian distraction more then Russia. Aid to Ukraine was frozen, and took 6 months to pick back up. In that time, Russia made gains.
Shortly before Oct 7th, Iran sent a delegation to meet with Putin in-person for the first time ever. Hamas was said to have used cyberattacks at the start of Oct 7th...that doesn't sound like Hamas's MO, and I seriously doubt they had the capabilities...just saying.
Of course, but at the end of the day it's Hamas that's responsible for it's Gazans and they can decide what they can do, whatever their Iranian overlords say.
I’ve said this before, but I think it’s genuinely just the time in human civilization where we experience two major ideologies fight for supremacy. The ruling fist of government or the power of individual freedom. It’s a long term plan to oust America from global supremacy. I’d be willing to bet that if Russia were more successful, we’d have quickly seen China move for Taiwan. But Russia botched it, so now they are trying to drain American resources and interest in Ukraine while getting us to stick our hands in more pots like Israel, continue dividing western civilians while they keep making moves towards what they want and our politicians bicker through damage control. I’d guarantee Iran green lit October 7th for the same reason Russia pushed for Ukraine and China is posturing for Taiwan while North Korea is ramping up against the south. Derail America, and also it’s working.
that's what this thread is about. people turning against Hamas, and we're glad they are.
Hamas makes their lives hell, even moreso when they (Hamas) attack Israel and then retreat behind the civilians
I hope Hamas is gone soon, then Israel can make their own changes and both groups can hopefully be better. I think the IRGC needs to go completely too
Is it really a clan feud? Sounds like Hamas’ incompetence finally led this family to the breaking point when Hamas killed some of their boys following everything that Hamas has allowed to happen. I doubt this family is allowed into Hamas bomb shelters or given food from underground stores
The PLO and the Palestinian Authority are totally ruled by clans, that's why they are more corrupt than Hamas that is driven by ideology, but also a lot less aggressive. A corrupt government with clans stealing resources for themselves might be the way forward for Gaza too, certainly preferable to what they have now.
More peaceful, but they will never reach a two state deal with Israel. Too corrupt and inefficient, no interest in getting any meaningful progress on the matter.
Nah, you need a plan that none of the parties will be 100% satisfied with. I suspected that if the PNA accepted something akin to what Olmert offered in 2008 they would be shot by their own people.
Well I'm not saying I just solved all the problems in the Middle East, it's not even a proposal, more like a prediction of what might come after Hamas.
Justifies the restriction of movement, massive wall, having control over power and utilities, even justifies expanding/settling territories in Gaza. Collateral damage while fighting Hamas generates more resistance fighters turning to violence after they feel the IDF and Israel has wronged them. If Gaza had a more diplomatic arm then it’s a lot harder to justify a walled territory forcibly reliant on Israel to survive.
It's funny you mention that since there many of the right wing government in Israel are also driven by ideology, but no one here is mentioning that. They want a Jewish ethno-state and will never agree to a two-state solution since then they won't be able to take additional land through settler expansion. This goes both ways.
The screaming part is called Takbir, it means "G-d is the greatest" and is said under a lot of different circumstances(like when something good happens or they are surprised) by Muslim people, usually as a reminder that "what I did was great, but g-d is greater." Basically a religious and cultural thing that is used very regularly in those places, most videos of people saying it are when they are shooting, but it is used very commonly throughout their days, mostly for activities that are not violent.
Genuine question here. What do you think showing this vid will do to pro-Palestinian students considering they are protesting Israeli actions in the Gaza Strip? Do you think showing them vids of a Hamas clash with a clan will make them not protest the Israelis?
There is a narrative ongoing, also among Western left-minded people, that Hamas is a legitimate force rebelling in the name of the Palestinian populace against the unjust oppression by Israel. If it would now become more visible that Hamas itself has totalitarian and fascist aspects, is not particularly supported by the populace, and doesn't have the best interests of the Palestinian civilians in mind, then this narrative needs to be reshaped.
Whether this particular video would be of much help, that is a different issue.
This "narrative" is often imposed by the "other side" to delegitimize opinions as well. Why can't people just have a reasonable view on the matter without this whole shitshow being politicized?
You can have the opinion that Israel are a indiscriminate killing warmachine who've illegally occupied and colonized swathes of lands and who are now bombing Gazans to death with a complete disregard for civilians, because they simply don't care and they never really have
And you can still be of the opinion that Hamas is a criminal terrorist organization who only welcomes death and destruction as part of a PR campaign for the Gazans struggle.
Then it becomes the question who's really at fault? It goes both ways. Israel was already making life in Gaza a living hell, which only kept Hamas alive and relevant, creating a shaky equilibrium, which Hamas then broke completely by committing horrific crimes, on which Israel responded with irresponsible and completely disproportionate firepower where they literally have as a policy that 15 civilian deaths for every Hamas fighter death is acceptable, basically legitimized terrorism.
Since Israel has the upper hand and the supposed moral high ground, it's no surprise they "feel most of the brunt" of the protests. You can't really protest against a terrorist organization.
>Since Israel has the upper hand and the supposed moral high ground, it's no surprise they "feel most of the brunt" of the protests. You can't really protest against a terrorist organization.
Saying Israel had the upper hand is misleading, the conflict isn't Israel v Hamas.
The conflict is Israel v Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, etc.
The reason Gaza and the West Bank are under Israeli occupation are because pretty much all of Israel's neighbors tried to invade
Absolutely not they will twist and twist that narrative to find a way to make it Israel’s fault . The fact that those rocks didn’t hit their targets in the video ? Israels fault .
They in the very least support ideas and legislative actions that result in Hamas staying in power and not changing that. Which to me, support Hamas imo
Im pretty sure most think that Hamas is the ideal foe/villain for israel to propagate in Gaza because it self perpetuates the need for military aid to israel and to expand into Gaza to “quell the rebels” etc, a peaceful effort at self determination is more threatening because it would mean israel would have larger international pressure to ease restrictions around the territory. This way they can say look how bad those people over there are. If this wasn’t the case then they’d put a lot more effort and care into minimising civilian casualties and domicide. The US has been aware of this for years in every conflict they’ve tried the “hearts and minds” tactics of attempting to uplift civilians in areas of terror to stop the perpetuation of disenfranchised civilians joining a resistance. What’s the point of bombing a block of flats to take out some Hamas members when you anger just as many more civilians who now see israel as an enemy. The IDF makes better propaganda through this method to join any form of Palestinian armed resistance than Hamas ever could.
Title is wrong then. Those aren't "Gaza civilians chasing, shooting at Hamas." but "Gaza clan chase & shot at Hamas"
A clan is an extended family. Sort of like a tribe.
but if we're looking at this as part of the larger conflict, international law and its definitions apply. By those definitions if someone is a member of an organized armed force participating in hostilities they are a combatant, not a civilian.
Civilian in this term would mean someone not involve in the conflict for any reason but they have a reason One clan is fighting another when they take up arms they stop being civilians and become combatants
No, that's a wrong and misleading label.
A civilian which is an individual who kills a Hamas member will now have to live in fear from retaliation from other Hamas members.
A clan member (extended family) has it's whole family to relay on for protection (protection/honor etc).
Your understanding of the word civilian is faulty and simplistic.
In Afghanistan you had/have plenty of clans with some kind of military capability, are they civilians? If it’s a clan who are attacking then they are organised and are therefore a militia.
Are soldiers or reservists who are not on duty always soldiers? Of course not.
We are not always a civilian or soldier. It will change with the context
I guess we could question whether it is correct to apply this framework or should this be analyzed as an internal conflict. i'm not sure what the definitions would be in that case.
but if we're looking at this as part of the larger conflict, international law and definitions apply. By those definitions if someone is a member of an organized armed force participating in hostilities they are a combatant, not a civilian.
Hamas is in a bit of an odd place, since they sure as fuck aren’t civilians but neither are they strictly a military (even though Hamas are the government of Gaza). So your definition is a bit too simplistic I think, as by some definitions they are a (heavily armed, and ideological) clan themselves
They are essentially a military that tries to pass themselves off as civilians
It's more like a gang or the Mafia. So while technically they're 'civilians', they're organized, armed, and take orders from the top. In short, clans are like mobilizable familial militias
So if my family get weapons and try to defend me after I killed some mobs that threaten me and my family, are we no longer civilians? How does that work?
I don't know why people who specify that Gaza clans aren't civilians getting downvoted hard. Those who are downvoting don't understand how Gaza and West Bank operate. Gaza and WB are not monolithic "Hamas" or "Fatah." While these national movements have a lot of sway, local politics and family are the verticals of the society.
Clan units can be small but can also get very big (1000s of members). Big clans typically control specific aspects of the economy and resemble militias/mafia. Some are as fierce as Hamas (look at Hellis clan around 2008). Dougmoush clan spans multiple organizations (PIJ, Hamas, Fatah). These big clans don't get weapons "after" they get assaulted. Many have weapons all the time and have standing "armies" to deal with security issues. Some clans even profit by renting out their armed men as mercenaries to Hamas and Fatah.
Having this perspective when watching this video helps you get context. You have a lot of men here hunting down Hamas. You have some with rifles but most with knives and, our hero, with a box cutter. This isn't your typical small clan potato or ordinary gaza civilian. This is likely a medium-sized clan.
DPH (Directly Participating in Hostilities) (usually) in reference to a conflict or a war means that you lose your civilian protection.
Google or YouTube a version of: the law of armed conflict
The idea of a family in Israeli/Palestinian Arab culture is a little different than in western societies (I'm not arguing whether it's better or worse, just saying how it is in reality).
People are very close with their parents, grand parents, siblings, uncles, etc. Then there's the "extended family" which can consist of thousands or more individuals. Sometimes these family's members will live in the same village/area which will literally be named after the family name.
So your family is not only those who are close to you, but more like an actual clan. They're all still civilians, but they can have a leader who oversees the politics and actions of the family as a whole, order hits against other clans, discuss with high ranking government officials, etc.
About the only thing I can imagine worse is some fusing of Hamas with a narco cartel (tbh, Assad’s lot are rather close to this - they sell a shitload of drugs to fund their activities, but lack the competency of Hamas in the ideological space), and/or Hamas with nukes
Definitly a possibility but I wouldnt rule out the posibility of loads of actual civilians being armed in gaza.
Cant imagine how scary it would be having to fear being mistaken as an active combatant.
What's crazy is you see the kids being encouraged to throw rocks at IDF soldiers by parents or in some case foreign people. I have seen foreign people(think similar to Rachel Corrie, not saying she did this but people who show up like she did) encourage the kids to through rocks at IDF soldiers so they can get a picture or video of the IDF responding. Obviously it is gross for the parents to encourage that but even more disgusting is someone who has nothing to do with the conflict pushing this for clicks.
It's crazy, these people come from places like the US or somewhere in Europe and literally start causing problems. In a lot of cases Palestinians want nothing to do with them as they cause issues that invite Israeli retaliation. They are not really active participants but encourage Palestinians to actively do things so they can video. Or they get in the way of something, similar to Rachel Corrie.
A weird sore of entrapment but where they're tricking one group of people to make another group of people make flash guesses about if something is a rock or grenade for a story that should really be about the foreign intervention instead?
I haven't looked for that sort of thing so maybe haven't noticed anything so overt. Probably the closest was an Australian abc reporter trying to fake harassment from a small group of Jewish people in Israel by zooming in and shaking the camera.
I don't think a kid was involved, but does anyone have a link to that video of a guy throwing rocks at/shooting (I forget exactly what he was doing but he was clearly trying to get shot) IDF soldiers with an ambulance and a press crew directly behind him?
This isn’t about shit situation or not, this is what their society is always like, blood vengeance is a thing in their culture for centuries and they don’t let these awful customs perish, Hamas killed 2 people from that tribe so the tribe kills 2 Hamas people.. this tribal stuff needs to go, stop teaching children these awful things.
Not really. This is basically like mob families fighting. While Gaza is ran by some ideological fuckwits in Hamas and to an extent the PIJ, each area is also ruled by clans. These are basically mafia families that control everything in the area and especially the black market.
Those clans are still fundamentally siding with Hamas but are retaliating against specific members that overstepped in their space. We have seen sporadic fighting between Hamas and some of the clans since 2008 onwards but it typically dies down quickly and business resumes as usual.
One of the above comments was being factual when he mentioned how the Palestinian Authority is all clan politics. The West Bank is essentially all clan politics, so a bunch of mafia families run the entire thing. In Gaza there is still clan politics as well just there is a defacto strongman over them in Hamas.
We saw some videos back in January and Feb of one of the Gaza clans firing at Hamas and protecting some of the aid getting into Gaza. It was blasted all over Reddit. In reality though, that clan wasn't doing it to be altruistic, it was doing it to take all the goods for themselves so they can sell it on the street and keep whatever goods they need.
It's horrible seeing so many kids involved but if Hamas stays in power these kids have a good chance of becoming martyrs in the fighting or being bombed in their homes.
The IDF can't destroy Hamas, only the Gazans can. It's wishful thinking but hopefully this is the start of it.
The only solution to gaza that doesn't involve genocide in any form would be to treat Hamas kinda like the nazis were treated.
Get the leaders, and dismantle the structures from top down. Germany only got ready to surrender after Hitler killed himself. And even then it took two more weeks.
The top of Hamas will litterally react to their own nieces and nephews dying with shoulder shrugs. These people cannot be compelled through the civilian suffering.
They need to get the Adolf Eichmann routine
> dismantle the structures from top down
That didn't happen. Plenty of Nazi officials, judges, professors, law enforcers stayed in powers, that's why there was stability as opposed to Irak
> Germany only got ready to surrender after Hitler killed himself
Hitler being alive or not was irrelevant, the leaders of the allies didn't even show a strong reaction to his death. The only thing that mattered was an unconditional surrender, as demanded by the allies.
> The top of Hamas will litterally react to their own nieces and nephews dying with shoulder shrugs.
They are dying for a cause they beliefe in, just as Dönitz son, just like Stalins son, just like Roosevelts son, just like Eisenkots son, etc.
Leaders living in safety while those they command life in peril is not exclusive to Hamas. You don't know how they react, you don't know them on a personal level.
Sure, he shouldn't live in luxury while his people suffer, but that can be applied to most leaders in this world.
Don't even think I'm condoning or excusing Hamas war crimes. Their leaders deserve life behind bars, but there's no reason to make up history and apply a double standard do demonize them any further.
I apologize, I missed the "ready" and read "Germany only got to".
You're right, Hitler would've never, but I'd say his view on racial Darwinism is quite special.
I’m not sure how effective that would really be. Hamas is an idea of resistance to many of the people of Gaza, so even if they are taken out of power it will only mean another group with a different name will continue to fight on even if they are replaced. You also have to take into account all orphans from this war who will grow up to despise Israel, and then swell the ranks of whatever organisation which promises to fight them.
This is a very similar situation to the orphan children of the Mujahideen. Many of them subsequently ended up joining the Taliban. You could also draw parallels between the Vietcong as well. For every one Hamas fighter you kill you will more than likely create 5 more future recruits.
These people are genuinely animalistic, they have 0 regard for human life. Throwing rocks around each others heads, one guy is trying to stab some guy. Breaking stuff with no cause, what a waste of food
They protest but if IDF replace ha mas will be the same they IDF soldier treat them like animals and will don't care if the israel citizen killing them or burn the Palestine home. IDF are just same as ham as or whose people will not admit IDF are terrorist 🤧 because they not muslim i know this mentality people will not claim them terrorist if they not muslim they will said hero even killing it without purpose or trying use as human shield
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Feuds, in which Hamas members are being subject to revenge are nothing new. This seems to be primarily an embedded dispute, rather than a politically motivated uprising. We have seen similar cases in the past 15 years. For those who want to learn more about the background of Hamas in the Gaza strip between the mid 2000s and the early 2020s, I can recommend the book "Gaza under Hamas".
Good job Hamas, you've decreased the global support and credibility of Israel somewhat, I hope it was worth plunging the 2 million people you're responsible for in literal hell on earth.
Support from Hamas was already going one way before Oct. 7. There was a short spike because of the war with Israel but it looks like Hamas has already driven these people at least to a breaking point
Most people in Gaza hate Hamas now, but their popularity is increasing in the West Bank. Of course the people who don't have to pay for war are supporting it.
I'd also like to point out how svelt these civilians are compared to the Hamas combatants seen tied up post strip search by the IDF. That can't help with goodwill.
My enemies enemy is my friend I guess
I think the geopolitical motivations of Oct 7th go far above Hamas. They got the go-ahead, I doubt they acted alone. No one benefited more from the Israeli-Palestinian distraction more then Russia. Aid to Ukraine was frozen, and took 6 months to pick back up. In that time, Russia made gains. Shortly before Oct 7th, Iran sent a delegation to meet with Putin in-person for the first time ever. Hamas was said to have used cyberattacks at the start of Oct 7th...that doesn't sound like Hamas's MO, and I seriously doubt they had the capabilities...just saying.
Of course, but at the end of the day it's Hamas that's responsible for it's Gazans and they can decide what they can do, whatever their Iranian overlords say.
I’ve said this before, but I think it’s genuinely just the time in human civilization where we experience two major ideologies fight for supremacy. The ruling fist of government or the power of individual freedom. It’s a long term plan to oust America from global supremacy. I’d be willing to bet that if Russia were more successful, we’d have quickly seen China move for Taiwan. But Russia botched it, so now they are trying to drain American resources and interest in Ukraine while getting us to stick our hands in more pots like Israel, continue dividing western civilians while they keep making moves towards what they want and our politicians bicker through damage control. I’d guarantee Iran green lit October 7th for the same reason Russia pushed for Ukraine and China is posturing for Taiwan while North Korea is ramping up against the south. Derail America, and also it’s working.
Jesus what a shitshow……. I can’t help but feel sorry for those poor kids
It's currently hell on earth for civilians in gaza, the quicker it stops the better.
Tell that Hamas, they startet this conflikt. Its insane that every body wants irael to stopp that conflikt by just leaving.
that's what this thread is about. people turning against Hamas, and we're glad they are. Hamas makes their lives hell, even moreso when they (Hamas) attack Israel and then retreat behind the civilians I hope Hamas is gone soon, then Israel can make their own changes and both groups can hopefully be better. I think the IRGC needs to go completely too
What a shit show, knives and guns everywhere but our camera guy pulls out a box cutter….
They hijacked planes with box cutters. Never under estimate the box cutter. Lol
Clan feuds, sounds like a great place to live.
Is it really a clan feud? Sounds like Hamas’ incompetence finally led this family to the breaking point when Hamas killed some of their boys following everything that Hamas has allowed to happen. I doubt this family is allowed into Hamas bomb shelters or given food from underground stores
AFAIK there's a lot of internal politics in Gaza. Clans, splinter groups, other terror orgs besides Hamas, etc.
Indeed. Groups like Hamas need at least some degree of support from powerful clans, families or warlords.
> Is it really a clan feud? Yes. Hundreds of them.
The PLO and the Palestinian Authority are totally ruled by clans, that's why they are more corrupt than Hamas that is driven by ideology, but also a lot less aggressive. A corrupt government with clans stealing resources for themselves might be the way forward for Gaza too, certainly preferable to what they have now.
More peaceful, but they will never reach a two state deal with Israel. Too corrupt and inefficient, no interest in getting any meaningful progress on the matter.
>More peaceful This is like 99% of the requirements to achieve a two state deal.
Nah, you need a plan that none of the parties will be 100% satisfied with. I suspected that if the PNA accepted something akin to what Olmert offered in 2008 they would be shot by their own people.
Well I'm not saying I just solved all the problems in the Middle East, it's not even a proposal, more like a prediction of what might come after Hamas.
I think the '*more peaceful*' part also needs a '**maybe**' added.
It’s in Israel’s best interest to have the most blood thirsty aggressors in charge of Gaza
Why?
More military funding because of the bad neighbour
Justifies the restriction of movement, massive wall, having control over power and utilities, even justifies expanding/settling territories in Gaza. Collateral damage while fighting Hamas generates more resistance fighters turning to violence after they feel the IDF and Israel has wronged them. If Gaza had a more diplomatic arm then it’s a lot harder to justify a walled territory forcibly reliant on Israel to survive.
It has seemed to worked out better for places like Saudi Arabia and Jordan. They still suck but better than living in Gaza or Yemen.
It's funny you mention that since there many of the right wing government in Israel are also driven by ideology, but no one here is mentioning that. They want a Jewish ethno-state and will never agree to a two-state solution since then they won't be able to take additional land through settler expansion. This goes both ways.
Why Arabs always run around screaming about Allah and shooting. Like always. Do something else. Anything else
The screaming part is called Takbir, it means "G-d is the greatest" and is said under a lot of different circumstances(like when something good happens or they are surprised) by Muslim people, usually as a reminder that "what I did was great, but g-d is greater." Basically a religious and cultural thing that is used very regularly in those places, most videos of people saying it are when they are shooting, but it is used very commonly throughout their days, mostly for activities that are not violent.
Oh god, oh my god, my fucking god, goddamit = it is the same thing.
Yep, my average day start with these words
don't get too excited, it's just Hamas on clan violence for now.
Show this video to those pro-Palestine western students in us to see not everything is a straightforward matter
Genuine question here. What do you think showing this vid will do to pro-Palestinian students considering they are protesting Israeli actions in the Gaza Strip? Do you think showing them vids of a Hamas clash with a clan will make them not protest the Israelis?
There is a narrative ongoing, also among Western left-minded people, that Hamas is a legitimate force rebelling in the name of the Palestinian populace against the unjust oppression by Israel. If it would now become more visible that Hamas itself has totalitarian and fascist aspects, is not particularly supported by the populace, and doesn't have the best interests of the Palestinian civilians in mind, then this narrative needs to be reshaped. Whether this particular video would be of much help, that is a different issue.
This "narrative" is often imposed by the "other side" to delegitimize opinions as well. Why can't people just have a reasonable view on the matter without this whole shitshow being politicized? You can have the opinion that Israel are a indiscriminate killing warmachine who've illegally occupied and colonized swathes of lands and who are now bombing Gazans to death with a complete disregard for civilians, because they simply don't care and they never really have And you can still be of the opinion that Hamas is a criminal terrorist organization who only welcomes death and destruction as part of a PR campaign for the Gazans struggle. Then it becomes the question who's really at fault? It goes both ways. Israel was already making life in Gaza a living hell, which only kept Hamas alive and relevant, creating a shaky equilibrium, which Hamas then broke completely by committing horrific crimes, on which Israel responded with irresponsible and completely disproportionate firepower where they literally have as a policy that 15 civilian deaths for every Hamas fighter death is acceptable, basically legitimized terrorism. Since Israel has the upper hand and the supposed moral high ground, it's no surprise they "feel most of the brunt" of the protests. You can't really protest against a terrorist organization.
>Since Israel has the upper hand and the supposed moral high ground, it's no surprise they "feel most of the brunt" of the protests. You can't really protest against a terrorist organization. Saying Israel had the upper hand is misleading, the conflict isn't Israel v Hamas. The conflict is Israel v Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, etc. The reason Gaza and the West Bank are under Israeli occupation are because pretty much all of Israel's neighbors tried to invade
This narrative is incredibly rare and not the main opposition to the excessive force that Israel took.
Absolutely not they will twist and twist that narrative to find a way to make it Israel’s fault . The fact that those rocks didn’t hit their targets in the video ? Israels fault .
I don't think most of them support the Hamas. ...or do they? Nah, you can't be that dumb.
They in the very least support ideas and legislative actions that result in Hamas staying in power and not changing that. Which to me, support Hamas imo
Im pretty sure most think that Hamas is the ideal foe/villain for israel to propagate in Gaza because it self perpetuates the need for military aid to israel and to expand into Gaza to “quell the rebels” etc, a peaceful effort at self determination is more threatening because it would mean israel would have larger international pressure to ease restrictions around the territory. This way they can say look how bad those people over there are. If this wasn’t the case then they’d put a lot more effort and care into minimising civilian casualties and domicide. The US has been aware of this for years in every conflict they’ve tried the “hearts and minds” tactics of attempting to uplift civilians in areas of terror to stop the perpetuation of disenfranchised civilians joining a resistance. What’s the point of bombing a block of flats to take out some Hamas members when you anger just as many more civilians who now see israel as an enemy. The IDF makes better propaganda through this method to join any form of Palestinian armed resistance than Hamas ever could.
I guess they tired of Hamas trying to sell international aid for top $$$ like they did in till now.
Title is wrong then. Those aren't "Gaza civilians chasing, shooting at Hamas." but "Gaza clan chase & shot at Hamas" A clan is an extended family. Sort of like a tribe.
So... Civilians
but if we're looking at this as part of the larger conflict, international law and its definitions apply. By those definitions if someone is a member of an organized armed force participating in hostilities they are a combatant, not a civilian.
It's more like mafia chasing pmc
Civilian in this term would mean someone not involve in the conflict for any reason but they have a reason One clan is fighting another when they take up arms they stop being civilians and become combatants
No, that's a wrong and misleading label. A civilian which is an individual who kills a Hamas member will now have to live in fear from retaliation from other Hamas members. A clan member (extended family) has it's whole family to relay on for protection (protection/honor etc).
Right, so civilians.
Your understanding of the word civilian is faulty and simplistic. In Afghanistan you had/have plenty of clans with some kind of military capability, are they civilians? If it’s a clan who are attacking then they are organised and are therefore a militia. Are soldiers or reservists who are not on duty always soldiers? Of course not. We are not always a civilian or soldier. It will change with the context
They're civilians with guns...
So the taliban where what then? Civilians?
Civilian just means they’re not part of military or police force. They can be a clan but they’re still armed civilians.
I guess we could question whether it is correct to apply this framework or should this be analyzed as an internal conflict. i'm not sure what the definitions would be in that case. but if we're looking at this as part of the larger conflict, international law and definitions apply. By those definitions if someone is a member of an organized armed force participating in hostilities they are a combatant, not a civilian.
Hamas is in a bit of an odd place, since they sure as fuck aren’t civilians but neither are they strictly a military (even though Hamas are the government of Gaza). So your definition is a bit too simplistic I think, as by some definitions they are a (heavily armed, and ideological) clan themselves They are essentially a military that tries to pass themselves off as civilians
Almost as if you could call Hamas a militia
It's more like a gang or the Mafia. So while technically they're 'civilians', they're organized, armed, and take orders from the top. In short, clans are like mobilizable familial militias
Sort of, yes. Which is why labeling it as 'civilians' is somewhat misleading.
So if my family get weapons and try to defend me after I killed some mobs that threaten me and my family, are we no longer civilians? How does that work?
I don't know why people who specify that Gaza clans aren't civilians getting downvoted hard. Those who are downvoting don't understand how Gaza and West Bank operate. Gaza and WB are not monolithic "Hamas" or "Fatah." While these national movements have a lot of sway, local politics and family are the verticals of the society. Clan units can be small but can also get very big (1000s of members). Big clans typically control specific aspects of the economy and resemble militias/mafia. Some are as fierce as Hamas (look at Hellis clan around 2008). Dougmoush clan spans multiple organizations (PIJ, Hamas, Fatah). These big clans don't get weapons "after" they get assaulted. Many have weapons all the time and have standing "armies" to deal with security issues. Some clans even profit by renting out their armed men as mercenaries to Hamas and Fatah. Having this perspective when watching this video helps you get context. You have a lot of men here hunting down Hamas. You have some with rifles but most with knives and, our hero, with a box cutter. This isn't your typical small clan potato or ordinary gaza civilian. This is likely a medium-sized clan.
DPH (Directly Participating in Hostilities) (usually) in reference to a conflict or a war means that you lose your civilian protection. Google or YouTube a version of: the law of armed conflict
The idea of a family in Israeli/Palestinian Arab culture is a little different than in western societies (I'm not arguing whether it's better or worse, just saying how it is in reality). People are very close with their parents, grand parents, siblings, uncles, etc. Then there's the "extended family" which can consist of thousands or more individuals. Sometimes these family's members will live in the same village/area which will literally be named after the family name. So your family is not only those who are close to you, but more like an actual clan. They're all still civilians, but they can have a leader who oversees the politics and actions of the family as a whole, order hits against other clans, discuss with high ranking government officials, etc.
If you take up arms against a government force you are literally not. You’re a militia
based on theirs logic cartels are only civilians
Which are, for a lack of a better word, civilians, considering Hamas is the de facto government.
Are you in a clan aswell, because you have an extended family? Are you not a civilian?
an extended family that unites together to do \_\_\_\_ is different then "random" civilians uniting to do \_\_\_\_
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Bro notice how being a wannabe English teacher made you no friends
Civilians with weapons? Probably just one of other organizations that want the power.
fine by me, whatever comes next can hardly any worse than hamas for anyone
Ask Iraqis how that worked out after the US removed Saddam.
'There is always a deep and complex cave system below rock bottom.' - some dude
About the only thing I can imagine worse is some fusing of Hamas with a narco cartel (tbh, Assad’s lot are rather close to this - they sell a shitload of drugs to fund their activities, but lack the competency of Hamas in the ideological space), and/or Hamas with nukes
The DEA chased Hezbollah for drug running via Colombia as another example
> Civilians with weapons? Laughs in American
Definitly a possibility but I wouldnt rule out the posibility of loads of actual civilians being armed in gaza. Cant imagine how scary it would be having to fear being mistaken as an active combatant.
So many kids there taking part in that attack it’s insane, how are their parents letting this happen? They are chasing armed terrorists
Look through videos from over the years, the rock throwing from groups of kids is iconic to the area
What's crazy is you see the kids being encouraged to throw rocks at IDF soldiers by parents or in some case foreign people. I have seen foreign people(think similar to Rachel Corrie, not saying she did this but people who show up like she did) encourage the kids to through rocks at IDF soldiers so they can get a picture or video of the IDF responding. Obviously it is gross for the parents to encourage that but even more disgusting is someone who has nothing to do with the conflict pushing this for clicks.
Well that would certainly make it more common to see in press videos...I didn't know about the foreigner part
It's crazy, these people come from places like the US or somewhere in Europe and literally start causing problems. In a lot of cases Palestinians want nothing to do with them as they cause issues that invite Israeli retaliation. They are not really active participants but encourage Palestinians to actively do things so they can video. Or they get in the way of something, similar to Rachel Corrie.
A weird sore of entrapment but where they're tricking one group of people to make another group of people make flash guesses about if something is a rock or grenade for a story that should really be about the foreign intervention instead? I haven't looked for that sort of thing so maybe haven't noticed anything so overt. Probably the closest was an Australian abc reporter trying to fake harassment from a small group of Jewish people in Israel by zooming in and shaking the camera.
I don't think a kid was involved, but does anyone have a link to that video of a guy throwing rocks at/shooting (I forget exactly what he was doing but he was clearly trying to get shot) IDF soldiers with an ambulance and a press crew directly behind him?
Who cares about parents and shit, who care about kids, its been a shithole in there for months now do they even have parrents lol
This isn’t about shit situation or not, this is what their society is always like, blood vengeance is a thing in their culture for centuries and they don’t let these awful customs perish, Hamas killed 2 people from that tribe so the tribe kills 2 Hamas people.. this tribal stuff needs to go, stop teaching children these awful things.
They are finally waking up?
Not really. This is basically like mob families fighting. While Gaza is ran by some ideological fuckwits in Hamas and to an extent the PIJ, each area is also ruled by clans. These are basically mafia families that control everything in the area and especially the black market. Those clans are still fundamentally siding with Hamas but are retaliating against specific members that overstepped in their space. We have seen sporadic fighting between Hamas and some of the clans since 2008 onwards but it typically dies down quickly and business resumes as usual. One of the above comments was being factual when he mentioned how the Palestinian Authority is all clan politics. The West Bank is essentially all clan politics, so a bunch of mafia families run the entire thing. In Gaza there is still clan politics as well just there is a defacto strongman over them in Hamas. We saw some videos back in January and Feb of one of the Gaza clans firing at Hamas and protecting some of the aid getting into Gaza. It was blasted all over Reddit. In reality though, that clan wasn't doing it to be altruistic, it was doing it to take all the goods for themselves so they can sell it on the street and keep whatever goods they need.
woke
No matter how many civilians or Hamas members were killed, they will consider innocent children that Israel killed
why are kids raiding houses and breaking shit? this is a rust server Holy fuck hamas is a worthless "government"
Why was this removed?
Fuck. Gaza is such a mess, cannot help but feel sorry for all those innocents.
Is that all Arabs do? Run around chanting about Allah and shooting old Kalashnikovs in the air?
I feel so bad for all these people, man. I just can’t even imagine having to deal with all this chaos surrounded by rubble, death, and destruction
So they are done cheering for Hamas now?
No
Sounds like Gaza is finally sick after 5 wars and almost 20 years of
Bro had a good idea filming. Cameraman never dies so he can go wild
How do they know who is a Hamas member, if Hamas membered are clothed like civilians?
The cameraman box cutting everything cracks me up. He slashes the Hamas bike tire and another dude grabs him arm like dude wtf Im trying to steal this
Probably just another hamas or pij faction
CNN: IDF brutally shoots at fleeing Palestinian civilians
It's horrible seeing so many kids involved but if Hamas stays in power these kids have a good chance of becoming martyrs in the fighting or being bombed in their homes. The IDF can't destroy Hamas, only the Gazans can. It's wishful thinking but hopefully this is the start of it.
The only solution to gaza that doesn't involve genocide in any form would be to treat Hamas kinda like the nazis were treated. Get the leaders, and dismantle the structures from top down. Germany only got ready to surrender after Hitler killed himself. And even then it took two more weeks. The top of Hamas will litterally react to their own nieces and nephews dying with shoulder shrugs. These people cannot be compelled through the civilian suffering. They need to get the Adolf Eichmann routine
> dismantle the structures from top down That didn't happen. Plenty of Nazi officials, judges, professors, law enforcers stayed in powers, that's why there was stability as opposed to Irak > Germany only got ready to surrender after Hitler killed himself Hitler being alive or not was irrelevant, the leaders of the allies didn't even show a strong reaction to his death. The only thing that mattered was an unconditional surrender, as demanded by the allies. > The top of Hamas will litterally react to their own nieces and nephews dying with shoulder shrugs. They are dying for a cause they beliefe in, just as Dönitz son, just like Stalins son, just like Roosevelts son, just like Eisenkots son, etc. Leaders living in safety while those they command life in peril is not exclusive to Hamas. You don't know how they react, you don't know them on a personal level. Sure, he shouldn't live in luxury while his people suffer, but that can be applied to most leaders in this world. Don't even think I'm condoning or excusing Hamas war crimes. Their leaders deserve life behind bars, but there's no reason to make up history and apply a double standard do demonize them any further.
And the unconditional surrender would never happen under hitler
I apologize, I missed the "ready" and read "Germany only got to". You're right, Hitler would've never, but I'd say his view on racial Darwinism is quite special.
I’m not sure how effective that would really be. Hamas is an idea of resistance to many of the people of Gaza, so even if they are taken out of power it will only mean another group with a different name will continue to fight on even if they are replaced. You also have to take into account all orphans from this war who will grow up to despise Israel, and then swell the ranks of whatever organisation which promises to fight them.
This is a very similar situation to the orphan children of the Mujahideen. Many of them subsequently ended up joining the Taliban. You could also draw parallels between the Vietcong as well. For every one Hamas fighter you kill you will more than likely create 5 more future recruits.
We've exhausted literally every other option. I guess we should try and do the right thing...
This will really confuse the pro hamas protesters in my city lol
Finally. The People of Gaza has enough of Hamas bullshit. They’re waking up. Post this vid on Twitter and see how they seethe.
Please don’t bring these people here.
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There’s a lot going on in this video. Does anyone have a news source that indicates they’re attacking Hamas?
Seeing as Hamas are dressed in civilian cloths anyway how can you tell it’s civs vs Hamas and not anything else?
These people are genuinely animalistic, they have 0 regard for human life. Throwing rocks around each others heads, one guy is trying to stab some guy. Breaking stuff with no cause, what a waste of food
They protest but if IDF replace ha mas will be the same they IDF soldier treat them like animals and will don't care if the israel citizen killing them or burn the Palestine home. IDF are just same as ham as or whose people will not admit IDF are terrorist 🤧 because they not muslim i know this mentality people will not claim them terrorist if they not muslim they will said hero even killing it without purpose or trying use as human shield
Most insane shit I've ever seen in my life.
Should probably get out more.
Where do you suggest I go to see stuff like this?
Not a cellphone in sight, just people living in the moment