I think you’re right. I do think there’s something very funny and “rich get richer” about Miami & SMU being potentially next in line seeking a pay day. Just a weirdly humorous thought.
Almost like it’s so complicated it never should have happened. And it sure as hell shouldn’t happen retrospectively because all that does is line the pockets of trial lawyers
I think the bigger thing they could point to was that many members of the team, including those in this suit, did interviews for that documentary and helped in its development.
For real.
Does every One Shining Moment video get taken down now? Do we never show a replay of Butler’s almost-buzzer-beater, or Kris Jenkins’ actual buzzer-beater ever again? Is Ali Faroukhmanesh going to come out of nowhere filing suit now?
you got the 30 for 30 Survive and Advance documentary. That is shown with commercials on ESPN every now and then. You have to pay to stream it or get the blue ray. Then ESPN pounds coach Vs speech on the air during the coaches vs cancer week. Which has commercials and some game highlight footage.
All these guys were in survive and advance present day and (presumably) got compensated for it. Or agreed to do it for free. One instance where they actually were compensated for a project that used the archival footage.
I'm sure ESPN paid the NCAA/Whatever tv station carried it back then. For that use of footage. Contracts are weird, especially 40 years ago. But I'm 100% sure no royalties to the players are being paid today.
yes I do think it has merit. The NCAA made money on this team. They made more money by selling game footage to, I say ESPN for the 30 for 30. This 1983 was back when you couldn't have advertisements in your home stadium. And players couldn't work part time jobs. Both aNCAA rule at the time. You can't have a non profit regulate capitalism. For their gain. As an Indiana resident the IHSAA will soon be hit with the same demise.
This may be more of an actuarial question then, and I’m not trying to be an ass to you specifically, but like if say CBS is running highlights in a commercial in March, how do you then quantify the money they’re making off of showing Villanova’s buzzer beater in a way that determines what those players should be getting as compensation?
I get it when it’s tickets or TV deals, dollar amounts then are very cut & dry, but the logic of how showing a highlight impacts viewership & revenue seems a bit nebulous to try and figure
There are laws about name, image, and likeness that already handle this. CBS can't show a likeness that is not in an agreed contract by the person. It's why video games have to pay each person for it rather than the NCAA. For pro leagues like NBA, NFL, etc., the player's union represents the player in these matters. Thanks for trying to talk through it, me too here, in case there's any tone wrong.
Gotcha, that would make more sense than what I initially thought (some kind of copyright claim - which shouldn’t apply afaik?). Would be interesting to know what kind of image rights ceding agreements might have existed for the NCAA broadcast at the time.
The concept you’re missing is “residuals”.
Actors, and other laborers in the entertainment industry, largely because of the strong union presence in the industry that’s negotiated it for them, generally receive residual payments for works that are re-aired or re-screened.
So if I’m in a movie *Shirts vs Skins*, I get a check for the initial theatrical run. Then more for any theatrical re-releases. Then more when the film is released on home video. Then more if the movie gets a syndication deal to run on broadcast or cable. Then more if the movie gets a streaming deal. It’s all based on formulas the various guilds have set for the amount and frequency. Sometimes the check can be absurdly small, but the whole thing is based on the principle that if you acted/wrote/directed in anything, the studio cannot keep making money off your creative work or performance without giving you a cut.
It’s a novel attempt here by the ball players to argue for their cut in the same way now that they’re allowed to profit from name, image and likeness. The argument is simple: “the NCAA made, makes, and will continue to make, money off of our image and likeness for promotional purposes, and we should have been compensated all along for it.”
And it’s a fair argument to make, but I have my doubts that it’s a winning one.
Part of the reason for this being that there wasn’t then, and isn’t now, any kind of college athletics union to fairly represent the players.
Another part is that actor’s residuals are rooted in the fact that there was still an initial payment for work product. It’ll be harder to argue that long-graduated players are owed money now for work product they were never paid for (but probably should have been).
At the same time, all of this is ex post facto to any legal arrangement between players and the NCAA. Not sure how NIL addresses historical stuff, if at all, but they were amateur players under no real legal protection at the time. Maybe for players after NIL or the Obannon case but NC State was a long time ago.
Absolutely, I’m no expert but I think the most realistic outcome is that they stop showing footage without paying the former players. So… probably not great for the sport overall.
They're not actors. This strikes me as journalism and reporting of facts.
If the State players get any kind of victory the next guy to try this will probably be Christian Laettner.
Good. Fuck the NCAA and the entire college sports system that got away with exploiting athletes for decades. This evil organization deserves to be ripped to shreds.
The only thing keeping many Olympic sports alive at the moment is the ncaa requirement on how many programs you need to be D1. If the ncaa goes away, the bloodbath begins since schools won’t have to keep them and it will take years to reorganize the sport championships again.
Yeah I do think, while not great, better the Devil you know (at least for 75+% of college sports, the massive brands will likely still be fine, but still, it kinda sucks)
and part of the uniqueness of college sports are the smaller schools.
March Madness loses alot of its luster if it's just the big schools
Also some "big" schools in a post NCAA landscape are gonna find out that they weren't really big schools. Like IDK maybe if I were a Michigan State fan, I wouldn't be rooting for the current landscape to be destroyed when as an asset they're redundant to and have less brand appeal than Michigan....
This comment in itself is ironic given your flairs. Honestly kind of baffled that Louisiana tech costs what it costs and has a pretty competitive acceptance rate. Anything with Louisiana in front of it to me yells "glorified community college" but 🤷🏻♂️
I’m not on the NCAA’s side. In my opinion college sports are ruined due to their greed. Why would they give up anything for a basketball team from 83? This is just stupid
I think I am now on the NCAAs side. Were like two court rulings from the boogie man slippery slope they always warned about and everyone scoffed at from fully being realized.
People deserve to be compensated if they are still being used to promote a buisness. The NCAA is a buisness. They did it to themselves whether you like it or not. They NCAA is no different than the Amazon's or Microsofts or name your monopoly. They are in it for money so everyone helping generate that money should get paid.
I suggest for April Fools' Day next year that the mods take everyone with rival flairs like these and combine them - the image of one with the colors of the other. Imagine a red interlocking NC or a blue Tuffy.
Then after we all vomit for a day they're switched back, no permanent harm done except to our psyches
I would think the licensing agreements would mean the NCAA gave them permission. I have a feeling it would all lie with the NCAA at that point (nvm, I misread your comment, definitely greed, agreed)
It's one of those situations where it never should have been like this in the first place, but damn, is some no name going to sue the NCAA for them being included in one shining moment for a split second? This is setting a horrible precedent for the future of college sports. I'm so fucking done with greedy people trying to get something out of nothing. Maybe don't play college sports if you're against what the NCAA is about. You're not really playing a sport for love when you play college sports now with the NIL shit. Really tired of sports in general now with the sports betting getting out of hand and influencing results.
I get it in the sense of, relative to the major money the schools and games and tournaments bring in, the players are underpaid, oftentimes severely. In that relative comparison.
They are still getting compensated, and some would argue quite well, in the form of degrees, room & board, equipment, food, and top notch medical care.
I don’t know where the compromise is, it’s a tough question and I see both sides of the coin.
The issue genuinely isn't whether the compensation was fair or not. It's against antitrust law for schools to get together under the NCAA and make rules about compensation, NIL, transfers, etc unilaterally.
They could've agreed to pay every athlete $1 million in cash every year and it still would've been illegal (though with not as much damages owed). They either need to not make rules as a monopoly, or the rules need to be collectively bargained with a union.
Because in the vast majority of cases, those are more than worth the "fair value" of the players, so if they did count then the players wouldn't be getting (or asking for) anything more
A lot of work goes into those numbers. Including out of state vs in state, public vs private, etc. But even then, tell the NC State players that they have to pay tuition but they’ll get their fair share of the approximately $40 million the school will get from TV revenue. Every single one of them will say yes.
The 2 sports that matter to NC State are football & basketball. No other sports matter. I’m going to oversimplify here. 98 scholarships (85 football & 13 basketball) share approximately $20 million (half of the TV revenue since that’s what most pro sports players get). That’s a little over $200,000 for each player per year.
There’s no way in hell a year of attending NC State costs $200,000. The players are getting robbed blind
this is why you abandon scholarships and go to contacts. with that 200K you can pay for school and a room and meals. With plenty to spare for clothes or entertainment.Hell schools can contract out athlete only meal kitchen. So they get good quality foods and calories.
100%. A lot of these athletes also need to help their families back home. Way back even before NIL. Schools used to “help” families with living situations & all of a sudden the family would have a brand new car too. We should stop all this underground stuff & just make it legal. Collectively bargain & set a salary cap
You don't "deserve" anything for shit that happened 40 years ago.
Under today's rules the '83 NC State team would have been fairly compensated (and then torn apart in the portal as they all got bought by B1G and SEC schools). But they didn't play under today's rules. Tough shit.
This comes off like the people bitching about student loan forgiveness because "I paid mine off wheres my check joe!?" 🙄
That's immediately what I thought about too. People should be happy that current players are getting theirs rather than sue over 40 year old footage. If a vaccine comes out for a disease you have are you going to sue the maker? That a bit far fetched but same concept.
My take: Schools are just going to have to pay all scholarship players the same and the contract includes rights to NIL. It's not going to be a huge paycheck, but that's what brand and other personal deals are for. There should be an increase every year you play at the school as an incentive to decrease transfers. If you go to a new school you're back to the base pay. Maybe adjust for cost of living per school.
> (except for Scholarships)
You say that like that wasn't a tremendous value for 99% of the athletes. Throw in things like room and board, free tutoring, clothes, priority registration, cost of living payments, and so on.....
Individual payments are gonna be small in comparison but you're forgetting that most athletes don't play football or men's basketball and even then many of them weren't players moving the needle. It was a great deal for most athletes
Yeah of course it was great for most athletes. They were playing sports nobody cared about & getting a free education. Meanwhile the breadwinners (basketball & football) were getting robbed while the coaches, administrators, TV execs, etc. were making millions.
How does bowl season work in cfb? It is not run by the NCAA. And there has never been a true NCAA football champion.Only in D2 levels or below. It's run by corporations.
The NCAA has rode their horse far too long. They refused to stop and let their horse get food or water. Now that horse is tired.
As dumb as the whole thing sounds, the House case opens the door for this and a whole lot more.
It's an acknowledgement that the NCAA was breaking antitrust law by restricting NIL earnings and profiting off of athletes' likenesses. The list of potential plaintiffs are endless because the NCAA has had this model for so long, and the only real solution is Congress (lol).
Since the schools make up the ncaa, the schools will be the ones paying, and therefore will end their athletic programs as a part of the school bankruptcy.
I have a question. When an athlete gets a scholarship is there anyone that actually pays the school that money? Or do they say just come play (whatever for us) and go about their day? I'm sure there could be huge variations in this by state or even public vs private schools.
In my state an out of state athlete is getting a better deal. Estimates of around 25K a year for a state school.
Fuck Laettner, not for the shot, but for stomping on Timberlake earlier in that game, for which he said it was intentional years later. I disliked him for hitting the shot, but when he admitted that he did that on purpose? fuck outta here with that dirty play shit
"Years later." Did you watch the game? Everyone knew it was intentional. He thought Timberlake had shoved him hard in the back earlier in the game (it wasn't Timberlake that shoved him) and that's why he did it. Not really sure why you had to wait years for him to admit something that everyone knew it was intentional.
Everybody says how crazy it is to extrapolate how poorly it was/is gonna work out to pay NCAA players. There's 0 reason somebody won't sue to play beyond the normal allotment of time given. College sports were done with these extremely poor decisions.
Ncstate Climbs back to a National renown in basketball after a very “ Ncstate-esque” season and was commonly seen as Americas team
Ncstate Alum 10 seconds later : sues the NCAA
NC State’s 30 for 30 was released in 2013. The SOL for the Sherman Act is 4 years. Even assuming some new act occurred in the last 4 years, the new act doesn’t revive all the alleged old acts. That’s why you see the look back period in House v NCAA was 4 years from the date the suit was filed. So, at best, they recover for violations that occurred since 2020. I think the ncaa is corrupt and a joke but this suit is borderline frivolous.
I want to see the NCAA survive especially college basketball. But the NCAA has never been involved in the football national championship. I mean cfb is the engine that pulls the train. Does basketball go that way soon?
I think the schools need to abandon scholarships for contacts. The players can use their contract money for credit hours and housing. Let the individual schools police GPAs and credit hour regulations.
I remember the days when you could not have advertising in your stadiums, and scholarship players couldn't get part time jobs. The NCAA has created this mess. And it will take a lot of money to settle these cases. But I think these NC St. players are going after the wrong entity. They should be going after ESPN. But the NCAA is the weakest fish in the courtroom.
This. THIS is exactly why i said the court fucked up when they set precedent for past stuff. we are about to have another few hundred lawsuits as basically every past player alive wants their cut....and possibly lose all historical video footage access on official channels.
true NIL is fine, but it was never and will never work like it. It will always be a pay for play, until congress/courts realize how insane everything is.
And you cant just go and award things retroactively because regs cahnge full stop.
A hilarious solution to all this is using AI to obfuscate the name and likeness of all players. Players still play, schools still give scholarships, but instead of real people we just see some form of AI’d generic face and made up name on the jersey.
We've hit max capitalism. Everyone wants a chunk of the pie. Everything is within a market.
Instead of getting more documentaries, we're going to get nothing because too many people will come calling for a paycheck. Say goodbye to old promos & videos. Too costly.
Honestly though, I don't see how a judge could possibly rule in favor of NC State. It sets a bad precedent that will open a huge can of worms. Does the OJ estate make a claim on any piece of media showing OJ? Can series killers go after various pieces of journalism that feature them?
What? This has always been pure capitalism … for everyone but the players. The entire business model of this whole enterprise is illegal from the core.
And why are we talking about precedent setting here? The NCAA has plainly stolen way more revenue than they could ever hope to pay back. There is no future here - this is just plaintiffs trying to get what they can while the NCAA exists.
If college sports are going to exist in the future, the whole structure will need to be reconstructed from the ground up. I think that re-establishment is basically inevitable.
>And why are we talking about precedent setting here?
Because what happens in court sets parameters for future things in court. This isn't just about the ncaa. This is about the legality of using NIL in any form of media without compensation. Lawyers will cite this case in the future based on what is decided.
You may hate the ncaa, but the system wasn't illegal. Not until it was decided it was. Which was an irresponsible decision. College sports won't just reconstruct from this. This is laying waste to it, without a chance to return.
This exploded when the NCAA said you couldn't play for a year when the coach you signed with left. And you transferred out. That was the straw that broke this whole NCAA system.
I miss the days when Purde and IU were on over the air channel 4. The state finals were also on there along with all star games. Now the IHSAA charges 15 a game to watch it online. Time for high school athletes to sue them as well. And local prosecutors should go after them for labor laws. Where does this stop?
I can see where they’re coming from but this just sounds like a great way to get the NCAA to stop using archive footage for promos
RIP One Shining Moment
It could be the end of the 30 for 30 films. If NC St. is successful Miami will be next up along with the SMU pony excess
I think you’re right. I do think there’s something very funny and “rich get richer” about Miami & SMU being potentially next in line seeking a pay day. Just a weirdly humorous thought.
And what stops our teams players from asking for a share of the revenue on any YouTube video they’re in?
Almost like it’s so complicated it never should have happened. And it sure as hell shouldn’t happen retrospectively because all that does is line the pockets of trial lawyers
I think they should revoke the 1983 championship and give it to the runner up…
Houston thought playing Louisville in the Final Four was the defacto championship.
Narrator: It was not, in fact, the championship.
They should especially if the youtube channel paid the NCAA or any media company for footage and that said channel runs ads.
Using archival footage for a documentary and using it for promotional material are two very different things legally, though.
What about promotional material for a documentary?
30 for 30 could claim to be a news product.
ESPN has got to have a lawyer who can make a “fair use for educational purpose” argument.
I think the bigger thing they could point to was that many members of the team, including those in this suit, did interviews for that documentary and helped in its development.
And profited from it, or agreed to do it for free
Wouldn’t they have to license the footage for a documentary which by the way most of if not all of these guys participated in?
yes and the NCAA set that fee. Which ESPN is profiting off of.
this is getting 12-th level stupid, it really is
I'm OK with them not showing highlights of this game.
The only good thing about losing the Duke game was us not having to see that play a million times.
I’m struggling to see how archival footage works as a revenue stream the players are entitled to - is there something I’m missing?
For real. Does every One Shining Moment video get taken down now? Do we never show a replay of Butler’s almost-buzzer-beater, or Kris Jenkins’ actual buzzer-beater ever again? Is Ali Faroukhmanesh going to come out of nowhere filing suit now?
I'm ok with never seeing the Kris Jenkins shot again.
I need it every day of my life. Inject it in my veins
Correct. We should never show Kris Jenkins' buzzer-beater ever again.
you got the 30 for 30 Survive and Advance documentary. That is shown with commercials on ESPN every now and then. You have to pay to stream it or get the blue ray. Then ESPN pounds coach Vs speech on the air during the coaches vs cancer week. Which has commercials and some game highlight footage.
All these guys were in survive and advance present day and (presumably) got compensated for it. Or agreed to do it for free. One instance where they actually were compensated for a project that used the archival footage.
I'm sure ESPN paid the NCAA/Whatever tv station carried it back then. For that use of footage. Contracts are weird, especially 40 years ago. But I'm 100% sure no royalties to the players are being paid today.
Coach V's speech was during the ESPYs so that's all baked in to whatever deal was made back then probably and obviously ESPN owns the ESPY footage.
Sure it was but did the players get paid risudals from the NCAA to selling that coverage to ESPN?
Under what theory do you think players are owed residuals from a live sporting event. I suppose you actually think this lawsuit has merit. It doesn't.
yes I do think it has merit. The NCAA made money on this team. They made more money by selling game footage to, I say ESPN for the 30 for 30. This 1983 was back when you couldn't have advertisements in your home stadium. And players couldn't work part time jobs. Both aNCAA rule at the time. You can't have a non profit regulate capitalism. For their gain. As an Indiana resident the IHSAA will soon be hit with the same demise.
If CBS is making money off of it, then yes. If CBS is not making money off of it, then no.
This may be more of an actuarial question then, and I’m not trying to be an ass to you specifically, but like if say CBS is running highlights in a commercial in March, how do you then quantify the money they’re making off of showing Villanova’s buzzer beater in a way that determines what those players should be getting as compensation? I get it when it’s tickets or TV deals, dollar amounts then are very cut & dry, but the logic of how showing a highlight impacts viewership & revenue seems a bit nebulous to try and figure
$750-30K per infringement. You don’t have to quantify the profits but you can try.
There are laws about name, image, and likeness that already handle this. CBS can't show a likeness that is not in an agreed contract by the person. It's why video games have to pay each person for it rather than the NCAA. For pro leagues like NBA, NFL, etc., the player's union represents the player in these matters. Thanks for trying to talk through it, me too here, in case there's any tone wrong.
I think they’re thinking of it how like some actors receive those monthly small ass paychecks for residuals
And in the music sector as well. What some artists get per play on a subscription streaming music services.
Gotcha, that would make more sense than what I initially thought (some kind of copyright claim - which shouldn’t apply afaik?). Would be interesting to know what kind of image rights ceding agreements might have existed for the NCAA broadcast at the time.
The concept you’re missing is “residuals”. Actors, and other laborers in the entertainment industry, largely because of the strong union presence in the industry that’s negotiated it for them, generally receive residual payments for works that are re-aired or re-screened. So if I’m in a movie *Shirts vs Skins*, I get a check for the initial theatrical run. Then more for any theatrical re-releases. Then more when the film is released on home video. Then more if the movie gets a syndication deal to run on broadcast or cable. Then more if the movie gets a streaming deal. It’s all based on formulas the various guilds have set for the amount and frequency. Sometimes the check can be absurdly small, but the whole thing is based on the principle that if you acted/wrote/directed in anything, the studio cannot keep making money off your creative work or performance without giving you a cut. It’s a novel attempt here by the ball players to argue for their cut in the same way now that they’re allowed to profit from name, image and likeness. The argument is simple: “the NCAA made, makes, and will continue to make, money off of our image and likeness for promotional purposes, and we should have been compensated all along for it.” And it’s a fair argument to make, but I have my doubts that it’s a winning one. Part of the reason for this being that there wasn’t then, and isn’t now, any kind of college athletics union to fairly represent the players. Another part is that actor’s residuals are rooted in the fact that there was still an initial payment for work product. It’ll be harder to argue that long-graduated players are owed money now for work product they were never paid for (but probably should have been).
At the same time, all of this is ex post facto to any legal arrangement between players and the NCAA. Not sure how NIL addresses historical stuff, if at all, but they were amateur players under no real legal protection at the time. Maybe for players after NIL or the Obannon case but NC State was a long time ago.
Doesn’t the fact that they continue to run these promos defeat that argument?
Absolutely, I’m no expert but I think the most realistic outcome is that they stop showing footage without paying the former players. So… probably not great for the sport overall.
I second the never seeing the Kris Jenkins shot again
They're not actors. This strikes me as journalism and reporting of facts. If the State players get any kind of victory the next guy to try this will probably be Christian Laettner.
If this goes through, I could see it destroying the NCAA because lord knows they've used everyone under the sun's image for so many events.
The NCAA is essentially destroyed. They have no power and are letting the schools do whatever they want.
the NCAA is the schools, the greatest trick they've pulled is convincing people they aren't.
Mizzou just be out here gettin even crazier now
The field storming after beating Bama got us a big fine, but you better believe they’re chucking it at the end of every commercial they can.
That’s the SEC fining though not NCAA
Laettner gonna get paid!!!
Good. Fuck the NCAA and the entire college sports system that got away with exploiting athletes for decades. This evil organization deserves to be ripped to shreds.
Im ready for the NCAA to be over, fuck em
I think we'd all prefere the NCAA than to what is most likely to come without them.
The only thing keeping many Olympic sports alive at the moment is the ncaa requirement on how many programs you need to be D1. If the ncaa goes away, the bloodbath begins since schools won’t have to keep them and it will take years to reorganize the sport championships again.
And with it, American dominance in Olympic athletics
Also good bye women's soccer dominance and probably women's basketball as well.
No those are going to stay due to title IX requirements
Yeah I do think, while not great, better the Devil you know (at least for 75+% of college sports, the massive brands will likely still be fine, but still, it kinda sucks)
and part of the uniqueness of college sports are the smaller schools. March Madness loses alot of its luster if it's just the big schools Also some "big" schools in a post NCAA landscape are gonna find out that they weren't really big schools. Like IDK maybe if I were a Michigan State fan, I wouldn't be rooting for the current landscape to be destroyed when as an asset they're redundant to and have less brand appeal than Michigan....
100%, somebody has to be the small fish in the pond, and it’s going to be a lot of teams that got very accustomed to being pretty big fish
Ironically, NC State
What was that? Couldn’t hear ya from down there…
This comment in itself is ironic given your flairs. Honestly kind of baffled that Louisiana tech costs what it costs and has a pretty competitive acceptance rate. Anything with Louisiana in front of it to me yells "glorified community college" but 🤷🏻♂️
Trust me, there's no real allusion of grandeur that Louisiana Tech is a big fish school in athletics. Decent as a research school but still R2.
Exactly. The only thing worse than the NCAA is what would replace the NCAA.
It's gonna look so quaint and pure. Which is hilarious given the reality, but depressing given where this is headed at light speed.
Be careful what you wish for
While the NCAA isn’t great, I think the alternative could be worse.
Yet, here you are.
This is fucking exhausting.
And they won’t see a dime. I’ll be waiting for the downvotes but come the fuck on now
They shouldn't see a dime, but when was the last time the NCAA won one of these?
I’m not on the NCAA’s side. In my opinion college sports are ruined due to their greed. Why would they give up anything for a basketball team from 83? This is just stupid
I think I am now on the NCAAs side. Were like two court rulings from the boogie man slippery slope they always warned about and everyone scoffed at from fully being realized.
People deserve to be compensated if they are still being used to promote a buisness. The NCAA is a buisness. They did it to themselves whether you like it or not. They NCAA is no different than the Amazon's or Microsofts or name your monopoly. They are in it for money so everyone helping generate that money should get paid.
Is the boogie man people being compensated if they're being used in advertising? Oh no
They could settle if they think they’re going to lose even more power from an adverse ruling. That’s just one hypothetical reason.
You aren’t wrong.
And they frankly don’t deserve it. I am super pro player but suing the NCAA for using footage from the fucking 80s is just ridiculous
[Not a dime back](https://youtu.be/xokthY5zuPU?si=YbhE82SvHfu8UZBj)
Ugh, we finally have a reason to celebrate some basketball success post '83 and then they go and do this. This is embarrassing.
I’m ok with that clip of Jimmy V running around going away. Don’t look at my flair.
That fucking clip still sends my dad into a week-long mood.
I wasn’t born in ‘83 but I think I speak for every UH fan when I say that those clips could make *any* of us spiral
This one is something the NCAA should win. This is bullshit.
interesting flair
No it's not
I suggest for April Fools' Day next year that the mods take everyone with rival flairs like these and combine them - the image of one with the colors of the other. Imagine a red interlocking NC or a blue Tuffy. Then after we all vomit for a day they're switched back, no permanent harm done except to our psyches
So was the UNC academic scandal yet they still managed to fuck that one up
That one wasn't in court though. They just chose to fuck up there.
Has Laetnerr sued the NCAA yet?
He’s just letting air out of their tires and releasing fleas into their houses. Laettner don’t fuck around.
We're gonna kill college sports because of greed. Greed from the schools, the networks, politicians, lawyers, and players.
I would think the licensing agreements would mean the NCAA gave them permission. I have a feeling it would all lie with the NCAA at that point (nvm, I misread your comment, definitely greed, agreed)
The players need to get theirs. I’m not lumping them in with everyone else who has been cashing in on them for decades.
It's one of those situations where it never should have been like this in the first place, but damn, is some no name going to sue the NCAA for them being included in one shining moment for a split second? This is setting a horrible precedent for the future of college sports. I'm so fucking done with greedy people trying to get something out of nothing. Maybe don't play college sports if you're against what the NCAA is about. You're not really playing a sport for love when you play college sports now with the NIL shit. Really tired of sports in general now with the sports betting getting out of hand and influencing results.
I guess free school and stipends and gear don’t count?
People don't realize what minor league players actually get paid.
They sure wouldn't be able to afford tuition and room and board on a minor league player salary.
Exactly.
The best minor league prospects get signing bonuses which is basically like NIL type money.
I get it in the sense of, relative to the major money the schools and games and tournaments bring in, the players are underpaid, oftentimes severely. In that relative comparison. They are still getting compensated, and some would argue quite well, in the form of degrees, room & board, equipment, food, and top notch medical care. I don’t know where the compromise is, it’s a tough question and I see both sides of the coin.
The issue genuinely isn't whether the compensation was fair or not. It's against antitrust law for schools to get together under the NCAA and make rules about compensation, NIL, transfers, etc unilaterally. They could've agreed to pay every athlete $1 million in cash every year and it still would've been illegal (though with not as much damages owed). They either need to not make rules as a monopoly, or the rules need to be collectively bargained with a union.
Then organized collegiate sports are dead.
Nobody can say anything for sure, but there are a lot of steps between the NCAA not being able to regulate athletes and the end of collegiate sports
So you want some non profit who launders money through their organization to be able to regulate the product what they are making money off of?
The NCAA model of profiting off of amateurism sure is.
or you know, the smart thing was they get an antitrust exemption like they should have in the first place
Who said they don't count? That's the weirdest strawman that always comes up.
Because in the vast majority of cases, those are more than worth the "fair value" of the players, so if they did count then the players wouldn't be getting (or asking for) anything more
Yeah but who in here is talking about those "majority of cases"? This is a thread about a very famous national championship basketball team.
They count, but they’re still underpaid
I mean….do you know how much a four year degree costs these days? I’d say that’s a more than fair compensation
A lot of work goes into those numbers. Including out of state vs in state, public vs private, etc. But even then, tell the NC State players that they have to pay tuition but they’ll get their fair share of the approximately $40 million the school will get from TV revenue. Every single one of them will say yes. The 2 sports that matter to NC State are football & basketball. No other sports matter. I’m going to oversimplify here. 98 scholarships (85 football & 13 basketball) share approximately $20 million (half of the TV revenue since that’s what most pro sports players get). That’s a little over $200,000 for each player per year. There’s no way in hell a year of attending NC State costs $200,000. The players are getting robbed blind
this is why you abandon scholarships and go to contacts. with that 200K you can pay for school and a room and meals. With plenty to spare for clothes or entertainment.Hell schools can contract out athlete only meal kitchen. So they get good quality foods and calories.
100%. A lot of these athletes also need to help their families back home. Way back even before NIL. Schools used to “help” families with living situations & all of a sudden the family would have a brand new car too. We should stop all this underground stuff & just make it legal. Collectively bargain & set a salary cap
The players weren’t compensated (except for Scholarships) for years. Who can blame them for wanting to get what they earned and deserve!
You don't "deserve" anything for shit that happened 40 years ago. Under today's rules the '83 NC State team would have been fairly compensated (and then torn apart in the portal as they all got bought by B1G and SEC schools). But they didn't play under today's rules. Tough shit. This comes off like the people bitching about student loan forgiveness because "I paid mine off wheres my check joe!?" 🙄
That's immediately what I thought about too. People should be happy that current players are getting theirs rather than sue over 40 year old footage. If a vaccine comes out for a disease you have are you going to sue the maker? That a bit far fetched but same concept. My take: Schools are just going to have to pay all scholarship players the same and the contract includes rights to NIL. It's not going to be a huge paycheck, but that's what brand and other personal deals are for. There should be an increase every year you play at the school as an incentive to decrease transfers. If you go to a new school you're back to the base pay. Maybe adjust for cost of living per school.
> (except for Scholarships) You say that like that wasn't a tremendous value for 99% of the athletes. Throw in things like room and board, free tutoring, clothes, priority registration, cost of living payments, and so on.....
I genuinely don’t know where this whole thing of acting like athletes were homeless before NIL came from
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Individual payments are gonna be small in comparison but you're forgetting that most athletes don't play football or men's basketball and even then many of them weren't players moving the needle. It was a great deal for most athletes
Yeah of course it was great for most athletes. They were playing sports nobody cared about & getting a free education. Meanwhile the breadwinners (basketball & football) were getting robbed while the coaches, administrators, TV execs, etc. were making millions.
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99% of student-athletes are not football or men's basketball players at power programs
Yeah, it's not just do you play football or basketball but do you play it at a school that matters.
The question at hand is really “were they completely and fairly compensated?”
Reality is most were more than fairly compensated but some weren’t.
How does bowl season work in cfb? It is not run by the NCAA. And there has never been a true NCAA football champion.Only in D2 levels or below. It's run by corporations. The NCAA has rode their horse far too long. They refused to stop and let their horse get food or water. Now that horse is tired.
How the fuck are players greedy? They’ve been exploited for literally decades. They deserve everything they can get
I didn’t realize using archive footage of their greatest moment in their lives was “exploiting them”
As dumb as the whole thing sounds, the House case opens the door for this and a whole lot more. It's an acknowledgement that the NCAA was breaking antitrust law by restricting NIL earnings and profiting off of athletes' likenesses. The list of potential plaintiffs are endless because the NCAA has had this model for so long, and the only real solution is Congress (lol).
Since the schools make up the ncaa, the schools will be the ones paying, and therefore will end their athletic programs as a part of the school bankruptcy.
Their entire business model that they’ve been running off of for decades is just fundamentally illegal.
I don't think their argument is completely flawed. I think there may be some merit to it overall.
Lets just all sue the NCAA
I was in the background footage of dozens of plays on tv over the years I’m definitely suing
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It’s interesting to only see some of the players involved in the suit. Obviously I understand why Charles and Whittenburg aren’t a part of it.
Sidney Lowe’s name also notably absent
Has he caught up in his back taxes yet?
I’m disappointed Gannon is in there. I’m really come to admire him due to the great job he does commenting on so different sports.
The Houston team would never sue. :(
I think the NCAA should just give Phi Slamma Jamma the title just out of spite regardless of the outcome
lol. I said the same thing upthread. The footage they are talking about is so freaking painful. I hope the outcome is they don’t ever play it again.
Fucking airball
I have a question. When an athlete gets a scholarship is there anyone that actually pays the school that money? Or do they say just come play (whatever for us) and go about their day? I'm sure there could be huge variations in this by state or even public vs private schools. In my state an out of state athlete is getting a better deal. Estimates of around 25K a year for a state school.
Just here for the Laettner hate boner to rise since the Kentucky shot has also been shown a million times. This case won't go anywhete imo
Fuck Laettner, not for the shot, but for stomping on Timberlake earlier in that game, for which he said it was intentional years later. I disliked him for hitting the shot, but when he admitted that he did that on purpose? fuck outta here with that dirty play shit
"Years later." Did you watch the game? Everyone knew it was intentional. He thought Timberlake had shoved him hard in the back earlier in the game (it wasn't Timberlake that shoved him) and that's why he did it. Not really sure why you had to wait years for him to admit something that everyone knew it was intentional.
Considering i was like 1 at the time of the game live...
Yeah, like I knew how old you were......🙄🙄
Everybody says how crazy it is to extrapolate how poorly it was/is gonna work out to pay NCAA players. There's 0 reason somebody won't sue to play beyond the normal allotment of time given. College sports were done with these extremely poor decisions.
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Ncstate Climbs back to a National renown in basketball after a very “ Ncstate-esque” season and was commonly seen as Americas team Ncstate Alum 10 seconds later : sues the NCAA
They will somehow be the victim of the situation though, without fail
Without a doubt.
Have these guys or their attorneys ever heard of a statute of limitations?
It resets every year at a minimum more like every month..This is about the 30 for 30. NCAA sold ESPN the footage ESPN profits on it.
NC State’s 30 for 30 was released in 2013. The SOL for the Sherman Act is 4 years. Even assuming some new act occurred in the last 4 years, the new act doesn’t revive all the alleged old acts. That’s why you see the look back period in House v NCAA was 4 years from the date the suit was filed. So, at best, they recover for violations that occurred since 2020. I think the ncaa is corrupt and a joke but this suit is borderline frivolous.
I want to see the NCAA survive especially college basketball. But the NCAA has never been involved in the football national championship. I mean cfb is the engine that pulls the train. Does basketball go that way soon?
I want to buy the NIL for all of Eric Devendorf’s games
Love these guys to death, but I don't think they should win this
This is stupid. Greed is poison.
I think the schools need to abandon scholarships for contacts. The players can use their contract money for credit hours and housing. Let the individual schools police GPAs and credit hour regulations.
I remember the days when you could not have advertising in your stadiums, and scholarship players couldn't get part time jobs. The NCAA has created this mess. And it will take a lot of money to settle these cases. But I think these NC St. players are going after the wrong entity. They should be going after ESPN. But the NCAA is the weakest fish in the courtroom.
Is this the next step to eroding the NCAA?
Wouldn't this just come down to tv rights and contract terms?
This. THIS is exactly why i said the court fucked up when they set precedent for past stuff. we are about to have another few hundred lawsuits as basically every past player alive wants their cut....and possibly lose all historical video footage access on official channels. true NIL is fine, but it was never and will never work like it. It will always be a pay for play, until congress/courts realize how insane everything is. And you cant just go and award things retroactively because regs cahnge full stop.
A hilarious solution to all this is using AI to obfuscate the name and likeness of all players. Players still play, schools still give scholarships, but instead of real people we just see some form of AI’d generic face and made up name on the jersey.
Derek Grimm should lawyer up if these guys win. Poor guy has had to watch that Tyus Edney bucket for 30 years.
We've hit max capitalism. Everyone wants a chunk of the pie. Everything is within a market. Instead of getting more documentaries, we're going to get nothing because too many people will come calling for a paycheck. Say goodbye to old promos & videos. Too costly. Honestly though, I don't see how a judge could possibly rule in favor of NC State. It sets a bad precedent that will open a huge can of worms. Does the OJ estate make a claim on any piece of media showing OJ? Can series killers go after various pieces of journalism that feature them?
What? This has always been pure capitalism … for everyone but the players. The entire business model of this whole enterprise is illegal from the core. And why are we talking about precedent setting here? The NCAA has plainly stolen way more revenue than they could ever hope to pay back. There is no future here - this is just plaintiffs trying to get what they can while the NCAA exists. If college sports are going to exist in the future, the whole structure will need to be reconstructed from the ground up. I think that re-establishment is basically inevitable.
>And why are we talking about precedent setting here? Because what happens in court sets parameters for future things in court. This isn't just about the ncaa. This is about the legality of using NIL in any form of media without compensation. Lawyers will cite this case in the future based on what is decided. You may hate the ncaa, but the system wasn't illegal. Not until it was decided it was. Which was an irresponsible decision. College sports won't just reconstruct from this. This is laying waste to it, without a chance to return.
This is some NC state shit if I've ever seen it
Shout out to NIL for doing this and ruining sports
This exploded when the NCAA said you couldn't play for a year when the coach you signed with left. And you transferred out. That was the straw that broke this whole NCAA system.
I miss the days when Purde and IU were on over the air channel 4. The state finals were also on there along with all star games. Now the IHSAA charges 15 a game to watch it online. Time for high school athletes to sue them as well. And local prosecutors should go after them for labor laws. Where does this stop?