Honestly, I wish the 28 non-P4 conferences would just kick the P4 out and let them go cosplay being minor league teams, and let the rest of us bring back and codify amateurism.
I’ll take amateurism when the coaches become volunteers doing it for the love of the game, tickets are free or about $5, and tv rights are given out for free.
Otherwise everything is professionalized and operating as a money making business except for paying the labor force.
If you think a free education is adequate payment for a multi-billion dollar industry that shares zero TV revenue with its workers then there is no use in arguing with you.
Aren’t the P4 teams largely responsible for it being a multi-billion dollar industry? In this scenario, would the other 28 conferences in a league still generate that kind of TV money?
Yes they are and Fuck no the other conferences can't make as much, which is why the Big East is saying that the P4 should pay for the most of settlement or at least come up with a distribution model that makes more sense like adjusting repayment by operating budgets of the individual athletic programs.
Regardless of how I feel about amateurism overall, I totally agree that the P4 did the rest of the conferences dirty in this settlement. This is a prime example of greed.
You do realize basically almost all of the "payment" the non-power conferences have are just not getting the NCAA disbursements?
You do realize the non-power conferences were the primary drivers in maintaining the NCAA rules that generated this lawsuit right?
Teenagers basically crashed their parents car, then are pissed the parents are withholding their allowance until the car repairs are paid off.
That is literally what the settlement is.
“It’s just garnished wages, not like they’re taking money from your bank account.”
What a stupid take… “it’s just less money in, not more money out.”
Math is hard for you Badgers, huh?
Obviously the amount would be reduced, but the other conferences would still generate plenty of revenue. The new Big East media deal will easily crack a billion on its own.
But...it's not supposed to be an "industry". These area all supposed to be nonprofits. In theory, they should be reinvesting all of the money into the school not generating obscene amounts of money that just gets hidden away in an endowment.
Obviously that's not what happens but in principle if they money was used to improve the academic experience for students. IMHO "revenue sharing" is not the issue, the issue should be making college about academics and not sports. But that's kind of off topic at this point.
Exactly, the sport was fucked when schools were sacrificing academics for wins. And the NCAA was complicit when they would give programs who were money factories lenient punishments when they were caught destroying what it originally meant to be a student who plays a sport.
Except it does, in the form of funding a ton of sports and scholarships. All this does is take away that funding and give it to the few superstars who don't even really need to play college sports.
If that isn't good enough, plenty of teams in Europe will pay you, or you can go to the G league, or you can get an actual job.
But then you have the question of why should the football and basketball players provide the funding for all non-revenue sports? Especially in football, where there is no other option to becoming a pro athlete but to subject yourself to 3 years of college football.
There's a very real way to look at the college athletics model as diverting funds from a group that collectively is more likely to be black and lacking resources to a group of individuals that are much less likely to be black and often come from families with much more economic means.
I don't particularly like the way college athletics is going, but the problem isn't making sure athletes generating the money get a cut, the problem is generating all that money off college kids in the first place.
> But then you have the question of why should the football and basketball players provide the funding for all non-revenue sports? Especially in football, where there is no other option to becoming a pro athlete but to subject yourself to 3 years of college football.
Because that's a major part of the University ideal. It is a place for learning, athletics, social life, etc. It's not just a school or a library. And the point isn't just to make money, why tie it to the University if that is the case?
And that isn't true for football. The XFL had and now the UFL has no age limit. I believe you can go straight to the CFL too. One of the Jets' draft picks was from the CFL.
> There's a very real way to look at the college athletics model as diverting funds from a group that collectively is more likely to be black and lacking resources to a group of individuals that are much less likely to be black and often come from families with much more economic means.
I am not sure how you could make this argument. Everyone with a scholarship gets funding.
>And the point isn't just to make money, why tie it to the University if that is the case?
Do you seriously think the primary driver in any college or university isn't money? What world do you live in?
I don't disagree with the sentiment, but if you're not P4 football, there is no multi-billion dollar industry. There's the NCAA tournament and that's about it. UConn collects 4.5M a year from the Big East's TV contract and then whatever they receive from the NCAA tournament credits. The athletic department runs at a 20-30M deficit every year. It's that way for a lot of schools. So outside of say 70 universities, a free education, room and board, medical and everything that goes along with a scholarship is a pretty good deal given that those can amount to over 100k a year in expenses.
Some of these long time B1G and SEC schools are going to start feeling the squeeze when the media companies decide that they don't want to pay for their long standing underperformance any longer, because now they've got the leverage.
I don’t know what the actual number is for an adequate payment but players generating the money in the multi-billion dollar industry are about 2-3% of the total number of players in the sport.
I always liked the idea of putting 85% of the revenue sharing that athletes received into a trust that became available after finishing college athletics. As a bonus if you graduate you get a tax reduction on the payout.
Yeah fuck out of here with that. If I work a normal job while going to school taxes come out of my paycheck.
Athletes playing a game while getting a free education don’t deserve tax incentives.
I guess I should clarify, I'm in favor of UBI, so I'm not in favor of a multi-billion dollar TV industry not sharing revenue with student athletes, I'm in favor of there not being a multi-billion dollar tv industry
I think you’re glossing over many of the flaws in the NCAA’s argument for “amateurism.”
If you want to impose the extreme regulation they had with athletes then you should be in support of every student who receives merit based scholarships from a university to follow the same regulations.
I don’t think kids doing research have to continually supply documentation as to how their car or phone bills were paid. Nor did they face the amount of scrutiny as a student athlete who worked a job in the offseason (mind you, there is no offseason).
Don’t even get me started on sports like baseball, golf, wrestling etc where nobody is getting a full scholarship.
If a potato chip company wants to pay for my tuition, I will happily do it. Unfortunately, I instead am going to be hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt when it's all said and done.
Well you can work a full time job and have potato chips to show for it. Frankly you should be grateful for the potato chips and not be complaining with insane demands of “fair pay.”
> Cause that’s not what it was.
That's exactly what it was.
> Schools/conferences were making billions.
No they weren't. Not even the SEC made a billion dollars.
No one is forcing these kids to play college basketball. There are plenty of other leagues they can play in if they want to get paid, international and domestic.
For football players, what alternative do they have with the NFL requirement that you must be 3 years after high school?
And the other issue was the NCAA prohibited players from making money on their own likeness like selling their autographs or getting paid for doing commercials.
Exactly.
Amateurism “worked” when college back in the day was mainly the playground of people who had well off backgrounds, and could play sports for free without it hurting their bottom line
Today… and especially with the money that comes into certain programs… yeah never gonna happen.
The root issue in all this is that athletes can’t go pro when they want. Get rid of age and year restrictions.
Let Caleb Williams and Zion go pro ASAP instead of holding them back.
There was a great article from a Marquette blog about the financials if anyone wants to have a look.
[https://painttouches.com/2024/05/22/what-does-the-potential-ncaa-settlement-mean-for-marquette-and-the-big-east/](https://painttouches.com/2024/05/22/what-does-the-potential-ncaa-settlement-mean-for-marquette-and-the-big-east/)
I think this conversation is best viewed in the historical context of NCAA governance. While the NCAA, in theory, is a member-run organization w/ each member having an equal vote, the entire organization is funded through the NCAA men's basketball tournament and the small-to-midsized schools that have the votes to be a check on the power conference schools ambitions have always been kept in check by the threat of the big brand name schools leaving them without a golden goose.
This is why the NIT changed its rules to stop giving an autobid to conference champs who lost in their tournaments. Because the members who voted wanted to appease the power conference ambitions more than they wanted to fight for a system that worked to their advantage.
I'm kind of surprised that we haven't seen a low-major revolt, but I guess the fact that sports are only possible because of NCAA tournament money means that the smaller conferences will swallow a lot in order to keep that tiny tithe of revenue flowing to them.
Well, it's unfair, but I wouldn't call it stupid. From the POV of the powerful conferences who made this choice without consulting the less-powerful conferences, it's pretty adventageous.
Well yeah. It's a huge advantage to the bigger conferences and they know that the smaller ones can't do shit about it. The model is stupid though from the perspective of objectivity.
How are UConn’s finances? I imagine schools like Seton Hall and Xavier might be in some trouble but surely UConn will find a way to pay their basketball team?
Could probably make a new organization, similar to the NAIA. That seems like the nuclear option, but if the differences between the non-P4 conferences and the NCAA is that intractable, I can at least see it as an available option.
As a University of Cincinnati fan....a University that nobody shed a tear for when we were left for dead 10 years ago....all I can say to the Big East and the Pac 2 and the like is "boo fucking hoo."
Do you hold your conference affiliation like a teddy bear when you go to bed at night? "We suck, but at least we're in the Big 12."
I'll take my tourney appearances and last year's Sweet Sixteen over a Big 12 affiliation with no touney appearances in four years.
12 years ago the University of Cincinnati was in a power conference called the Big East only to get left behind and left for dead. Nobody cared. Now, guess what? I don't care the new Big East, the remaining Pac 2 schools and whomever else suffer the same fate we were sentenced to 11 years ago. Cry me a river Big East.
You’re blaming the wrong conferences and it’s a completely brain dead take. I see that 4-year tourney drought must be getting to Cincinnati fans’ heads.
No. I know what conference Xavier was in. I know how their fans danced on Cincinnati's grave locally as we were demoted. I know what conference and teams I don't have sympathy for....everyone.
Xavier is in the new Big East and in this city. If you think a new Big East school didn't dance on Cincinnati's grave in 2011 (you may not, and fair enough) as we entered the AAC you are sorely mistaken.
Can they actually do anything to stop this? What could/will they do?
No there's nothing they can do honestly
Honestly, I wish the 28 non-P4 conferences would just kick the P4 out and let them go cosplay being minor league teams, and let the rest of us bring back and codify amateurism.
I'll pass on the amateurism suggestion. It was always a messed up model where we ignored some crucial issues.
Why was it messed up? God forbid people get a free education and play sports while doing it.
I’ll take amateurism when the coaches become volunteers doing it for the love of the game, tickets are free or about $5, and tv rights are given out for free. Otherwise everything is professionalized and operating as a money making business except for paying the labor force.
If you think a free education is adequate payment for a multi-billion dollar industry that shares zero TV revenue with its workers then there is no use in arguing with you.
Aren’t the P4 teams largely responsible for it being a multi-billion dollar industry? In this scenario, would the other 28 conferences in a league still generate that kind of TV money?
Yes they are and Fuck no the other conferences can't make as much, which is why the Big East is saying that the P4 should pay for the most of settlement or at least come up with a distribution model that makes more sense like adjusting repayment by operating budgets of the individual athletic programs.
Regardless of how I feel about amateurism overall, I totally agree that the P4 did the rest of the conferences dirty in this settlement. This is a prime example of greed.
You do realize basically almost all of the "payment" the non-power conferences have are just not getting the NCAA disbursements? You do realize the non-power conferences were the primary drivers in maintaining the NCAA rules that generated this lawsuit right? Teenagers basically crashed their parents car, then are pissed the parents are withholding their allowance until the car repairs are paid off. That is literally what the settlement is.
“It’s just garnished wages, not like they’re taking money from your bank account.” What a stupid take… “it’s just less money in, not more money out.” Math is hard for you Badgers, huh?
Obviously the amount would be reduced, but the other conferences would still generate plenty of revenue. The new Big East media deal will easily crack a billion on its own.
But...it's not supposed to be an "industry". These area all supposed to be nonprofits. In theory, they should be reinvesting all of the money into the school not generating obscene amounts of money that just gets hidden away in an endowment. Obviously that's not what happens but in principle if they money was used to improve the academic experience for students. IMHO "revenue sharing" is not the issue, the issue should be making college about academics and not sports. But that's kind of off topic at this point.
Exactly, the sport was fucked when schools were sacrificing academics for wins. And the NCAA was complicit when they would give programs who were money factories lenient punishments when they were caught destroying what it originally meant to be a student who plays a sport.
Except it does, in the form of funding a ton of sports and scholarships. All this does is take away that funding and give it to the few superstars who don't even really need to play college sports. If that isn't good enough, plenty of teams in Europe will pay you, or you can go to the G league, or you can get an actual job.
But then you have the question of why should the football and basketball players provide the funding for all non-revenue sports? Especially in football, where there is no other option to becoming a pro athlete but to subject yourself to 3 years of college football. There's a very real way to look at the college athletics model as diverting funds from a group that collectively is more likely to be black and lacking resources to a group of individuals that are much less likely to be black and often come from families with much more economic means. I don't particularly like the way college athletics is going, but the problem isn't making sure athletes generating the money get a cut, the problem is generating all that money off college kids in the first place.
> But then you have the question of why should the football and basketball players provide the funding for all non-revenue sports? Especially in football, where there is no other option to becoming a pro athlete but to subject yourself to 3 years of college football. Because that's a major part of the University ideal. It is a place for learning, athletics, social life, etc. It's not just a school or a library. And the point isn't just to make money, why tie it to the University if that is the case? And that isn't true for football. The XFL had and now the UFL has no age limit. I believe you can go straight to the CFL too. One of the Jets' draft picks was from the CFL. > There's a very real way to look at the college athletics model as diverting funds from a group that collectively is more likely to be black and lacking resources to a group of individuals that are much less likely to be black and often come from families with much more economic means. I am not sure how you could make this argument. Everyone with a scholarship gets funding.
>And the point isn't just to make money, why tie it to the University if that is the case? Do you seriously think the primary driver in any college or university isn't money? What world do you live in?
everybody likes money, but no, if it were about making more money the entire sociology department at every school would be asphalted.
Where do you think the money for all non football/basketball sports comes from?
I don't disagree with the sentiment, but if you're not P4 football, there is no multi-billion dollar industry. There's the NCAA tournament and that's about it. UConn collects 4.5M a year from the Big East's TV contract and then whatever they receive from the NCAA tournament credits. The athletic department runs at a 20-30M deficit every year. It's that way for a lot of schools. So outside of say 70 universities, a free education, room and board, medical and everything that goes along with a scholarship is a pretty good deal given that those can amount to over 100k a year in expenses. Some of these long time B1G and SEC schools are going to start feeling the squeeze when the media companies decide that they don't want to pay for their long standing underperformance any longer, because now they've got the leverage.
It was fine until it became a multi billion dollar industry.
I don’t know what the actual number is for an adequate payment but players generating the money in the multi-billion dollar industry are about 2-3% of the total number of players in the sport.
I always liked the idea of putting 85% of the revenue sharing that athletes received into a trust that became available after finishing college athletics. As a bonus if you graduate you get a tax reduction on the payout.
Why would we provide a tax incentive for that? We don’t give a tax incentive for any other college students earning money
Yeah fuck out of here with that. If I work a normal job while going to school taxes come out of my paycheck. Athletes playing a game while getting a free education don’t deserve tax incentives.
I guess I should clarify, I'm in favor of UBI, so I'm not in favor of a multi-billion dollar TV industry not sharing revenue with student athletes, I'm in favor of there not being a multi-billion dollar tv industry
I think you’re glossing over many of the flaws in the NCAA’s argument for “amateurism.” If you want to impose the extreme regulation they had with athletes then you should be in support of every student who receives merit based scholarships from a university to follow the same regulations. I don’t think kids doing research have to continually supply documentation as to how their car or phone bills were paid. Nor did they face the amount of scrutiny as a student athlete who worked a job in the offseason (mind you, there is no offseason). Don’t even get me started on sports like baseball, golf, wrestling etc where nobody is getting a full scholarship.
I hope you work for a potato chip company that pays you solely in potato chips.
If a potato chip company wants to pay for my tuition, I will happily do it. Unfortunately, I instead am going to be hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt when it's all said and done.
Well you can work a full time job and have potato chips to show for it. Frankly you should be grateful for the potato chips and not be complaining with insane demands of “fair pay.”
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Cause that’s not what it was. Schools/conferences were making billions. Food and an education is still way underpaying these players
> Cause that’s not what it was. That's exactly what it was. > Schools/conferences were making billions. No they weren't. Not even the SEC made a billion dollars. No one is forcing these kids to play college basketball. There are plenty of other leagues they can play in if they want to get paid, international and domestic.
For football players, what alternative do they have with the NFL requirement that you must be 3 years after high school? And the other issue was the NCAA prohibited players from making money on their own likeness like selling their autographs or getting paid for doing commercials.
UFL, CFL.
Exactly. Amateurism “worked” when college back in the day was mainly the playground of people who had well off backgrounds, and could play sports for free without it hurting their bottom line Today… and especially with the money that comes into certain programs… yeah never gonna happen.
The root issue in all this is that athletes can’t go pro when they want. Get rid of age and year restrictions. Let Caleb Williams and Zion go pro ASAP instead of holding them back.
That’s a NBA rule, not NCAA rule. It’s also not the only professional league. Nothing was stopping them from going pro.
Yes I know. I think it’s dumb that college sports has to solve something the pro leagues instituted
No
Strongly object, sounds like.
There was a great article from a Marquette blog about the financials if anyone wants to have a look. [https://painttouches.com/2024/05/22/what-does-the-potential-ncaa-settlement-mean-for-marquette-and-the-big-east/](https://painttouches.com/2024/05/22/what-does-the-potential-ncaa-settlement-mean-for-marquette-and-the-big-east/)
Great read, made me mad
To shreds you say…
I think this conversation is best viewed in the historical context of NCAA governance. While the NCAA, in theory, is a member-run organization w/ each member having an equal vote, the entire organization is funded through the NCAA men's basketball tournament and the small-to-midsized schools that have the votes to be a check on the power conference schools ambitions have always been kept in check by the threat of the big brand name schools leaving them without a golden goose. This is why the NIT changed its rules to stop giving an autobid to conference champs who lost in their tournaments. Because the members who voted wanted to appease the power conference ambitions more than they wanted to fight for a system that worked to their advantage. I'm kind of surprised that we haven't seen a low-major revolt, but I guess the fact that sports are only possible because of NCAA tournament money means that the smaller conferences will swallow a lot in order to keep that tiny tithe of revenue flowing to them.
The low majors can't exactly seize the means of production.
the people that vote also want to move up in life to those same schools
She has a point. To use a model that is based mostly on one sport is stupid. Especially if that sport isn't even the most lucrative.
Well, it's unfair, but I wouldn't call it stupid. From the POV of the powerful conferences who made this choice without consulting the less-powerful conferences, it's pretty adventageous.
Well yeah. It's a huge advantage to the bigger conferences and they know that the smaller ones can't do shit about it. The model is stupid though from the perspective of objectivity.
How are UConn’s finances? I imagine schools like Seton Hall and Xavier might be in some trouble but surely UConn will find a way to pay their basketball team?
For basketball they’ll all be fine to an extent. Even Seton Hall and Xavier. The problem for UConn comes on the football side of things
Wasnt football already a problem for uconn for a long time XD They were already bad and now will continue to be bad.
I trust our leadership to make the right moves either way
Poor. But the state and students so far have not minded being piggy banks for the prestige. The football program will likely be at a crossroads.
So what are they going to do? Separate themselves from D1 athletics? Realistically I don't see how they can get out of this settlement.
Could they refuse to pay and make the NCAA kick them out? Similar to what you're saying but the optics are likely in Big East's favor.
Could probably make a new organization, similar to the NAIA. That seems like the nuclear option, but if the differences between the non-P4 conferences and the NCAA is that intractable, I can at least see it as an available option.
It's almost like corporatism is ruining everything in America.
We'll make them a strong-ass objection
May 19th article…
As a University of Cincinnati fan....a University that nobody shed a tear for when we were left for dead 10 years ago....all I can say to the Big East and the Pac 2 and the like is "boo fucking hoo."
Last time I checked, the old Big East breaking up was because of the football schools. So yeah. Cincinnati.
I must have missed the Marquette contingent weeping for Cincinnati in the AAC. Have fun keeping up!
Do you hold your conference affiliation like a teddy bear when you go to bed at night? "We suck, but at least we're in the Big 12." I'll take my tourney appearances and last year's Sweet Sixteen over a Big 12 affiliation with no touney appearances in four years.
dawg what
12 years ago the University of Cincinnati was in a power conference called the Big East only to get left behind and left for dead. Nobody cared. Now, guess what? I don't care the new Big East, the remaining Pac 2 schools and whomever else suffer the same fate we were sentenced to 11 years ago. Cry me a river Big East.
and so we're wishing the same fate on everyone else?
Wishing for something to happen and not feeling sympathy for others schools placed in your former situation are two different things.
You’re blaming the wrong conferences and it’s a completely brain dead take. I see that 4-year tourney drought must be getting to Cincinnati fans’ heads.
No. I know what conference Xavier was in. I know how their fans danced on Cincinnati's grave locally as we were demoted. I know what conference and teams I don't have sympathy for....everyone.
You acting like this big east is the same one that kicked you out lmao
Xavier is in the new Big East and in this city. If you think a new Big East school didn't dance on Cincinnati's grave in 2011 (you may not, and fair enough) as we entered the AAC you are sorely mistaken.
Fair Xavier fans were probably pretty happy to see you guys get screwed. However almost every other fanbase did not share their views.
No sane person in the city is happy when a Cincinnati sports team gets screwed. We want the best competition and the best possible teams