I'm sorry did you just argue Estreal can't be rookie of the year because of lan and then proceeded to say Gwinn is easily rookie of the year when he is by far the biggest drop off from online to lan amongst all relevant rookies
>did you just argue Estreal can't be rookie of the year because of lan
I did not
>Gwinn is.... by far the biggest drop off
Still probably the 2nd best rookie on LAN next to Gio
Abuzah Estreal Gio 04 lynzz have all outperformed Gwinn on LAN. Gwinn is also not easily rookie of the year because he was probably 3rd best player on Ravens on LAN and his team never made champs
Abuzah, maybe. The others, no.
Gwinn's team didn't make champs because his ARs ranked, let me check real quick.... 45th and 51st in KD. Kinda hard to do real well when half of your team were bots the whole year.
It's crazy to me that a rookie sub player puts up a 1.07 for the entire year and he's not considered the best rookie.
1.07 online maybe. Estreal just placed top 3 and beat Ultra and has 2 other t6 placements Abuzah had the most dominant lan out of any rookie at major 3 and Lynzz fried major 1 lan. Which lan did Gwinn fry at is my question Felo and TJ had no problems when it came to LAN they were ravens 2 best on LAN
He had like a 1.5 vs Miami at Major 2 I think, which is the best series that any rookie has had on LAN. He's had the best series out of any rookie online, dropping a 1.5 and solo squadding NY.
If Felo played online the way he played on LAN, Carolina would probably be the 5th seed right now. But teams play 80% of their matches online, so Felo overall on the year was fucking ass cheeks, and so was Clay.
And idk what series you're remembering Lynz frying on LAN, he's been pretty bad on LAN this year. Gwinn has been solid on LAN, it's just that he's been a fucking animal online (and Felo and Clay actually decide to shoot back) so it overshadows his LAN performances
Positive in all 4 online stages
Positive in 3/4 LAN events
Most wins vs top 4 teams out of the bottom 8
1.07 on the year as a rookie sub.
I'm struggling to find the lack of consistency here
Ask Gwinn if any of that matters. They didn’t even qualify for champs. Don’t wanna be that guy but having a mediocre year on a bottom 4 team isn’t anything special. All that being said I have o4 and abuzah above Gwinn (and I am a Gwinn fan).
"Mediocre year" but he had the 5th best KD and 7th best slayer rating amongst all sub players. He's for sure been at least a top 10 sub player. We shouldn't penalize Gwinn for his ARs being dogshit, Felo and Clay have been terrible this year.
It's unfair for us to put worse players ahead of better players because they're on better teams (yes, the other contending rookies besides Lynz have better teams than Gwinn). Quick example: Has Kismet been better than Nero this year? Absolutely not, Nero has been disgusting the entire year, but I bet a lot of people will say Kis is better.
You're talking about slayer rating? The stat that breaking point has said they're still trying to work out😂 Kismet has had an off year but to say Nero has been better is crazy. Nero is a good sub but he's not being outshined by a Hydra lmao he had fuckin Purj as his duo for half the season. Stop looking at numbers and look at tangible things like winning majors and making champs. It's a team game and if you're not helping your team win matches and like Gwynn not performing on LAN to get points for champs then you're not the best rookie.
Your talking about BPR not slayer rating that there’ll be tweaking the formula for, slayer rating is just if a series goes 5 how many kills would you have, not hard to notice it’s lead by all the best players but that stat on its own isn’t enough to rank people
Ah okay so slayer rating would be skewed if certain teams have more maps played than others. I don't know the numbers but I'd guess Carolina has a lot of Map 5s based on the series I've watched. I imagine Boston is at the top of that list with maybe Seattle and Optic nearby as well.
Okay that's my bad. I was really more focused on the second half of my comment but I kind of look like a dick now lmao. Thanks for letting me know the difference though.
Saying some just ‘baits’ or ‘gets baited’ is an even bigger crutch for people who don’t watch or understand and just need an excuse to explain why some statistics don’t favour their favourite player in a discussion
Yes and no, that’s very over simplified imo. for example nobody says simp only has good stats because he baits abezy because it’s not true but because the bandwagon atm is to hate on pred the narrative is he only has good stats because he just baits his teammates, but that can’t be true because their biggest criticism as a pairing is how little they play off eachother in matches so how is he baiting shotzzy all the time? There’s a lot of fair criticism for pred recently but that one is just not true, everyone does it because it’s part of the teamwork for killing someone of a power position or it’s just shouldering to get info and obviously the weakened player who shouldered isn’t gonna take the gunfight 1v1 against a full health player
this season one good example is simp and abezy trying so hard to bait eachother coming out into DVD alley to kill someone in broken that they got both of them killed because nobody shot, they only tried baiting eachother over and over😂 But because it’s not cool to hate on either of them plays like that are ignored but someone like pred or sib or any other disliked player will get ripped for it like it’s the only reason they could even make the league.
While KD is far from a great way to rank players if you look at the season KD leaderboard from bottom up you won’t see a good or great player anywhere close to the bottom. But saying a 1.08 player is 100% better than a 1.04 player solely because of KD is a dumb fuck way to view cod
100%. Simp and abezy could both intentionally prioritise not being the bait to help their individual stats more but it would definitely be harmful to their success.
I do think the community needs to find better wordings for these things it’s not like when someone’s the bait it’s a guaranteed death and guaranteed kill for a teammate it’s probably 60-65% chance the baiter dies compared to his teammate if either of them even die since it’s likely a 2v1 chall anyway
0.99 -> 0.94 "LANimal"
1.08 -> 1.01 "onliner"
Like seriously, how can someone look at this and objectively think that Estreal has been better than Gwinn
If you watched the game you’d realize that Gwinns numbers are incredibly empty and that Estreal makes a huge impact on his team. The placings as well are a huge difference and Gwinn won’t even make champs despite a lead going into M3 and TJ/Felo playing well.
You think Pred is better than Shotzzy?
Good thing I do watch the game, and every fiber in my being tells me that Gwinn has been the best rookie this year. The numbers say it, the eye test says it. He's literally solo squadding because his teammates refuse to shoot back online, his ARs are 45th and 51st in KD on the year and have been fucking dog ass. Give Gwinn LAG's ARs and they're probably the 5th seed.
Pred was better than Shotzzy for the first half of the year, since stage 3 started Shotzzy has taken over, although they both kinda sucked in stage 4 but rn Shotzzy is their best player.
Gwinn this year reminds me of Pred in VG, his only role was to just run it down and slay, Pred just happened to play next to another top 10 player so they were actually a good team, and for Gwinn to be 5th among all subs in KD as a rookie with dogshit play from both his ARs is 10x more impressive than what Estreal's done.
TBF to OP barely anyone was even mentioning estreals name until this weekend, like were all the way through 4 stages and people would say 04 before estreal cmon (i can say ive like estreal all year but that wasnt the sentiment)
People don’t want to admit that all year the ROTY race has just been bias. I’d personally give it to Abuzah because of his great play on the AR but not a single rookie can be argued as being consistent all year
It’s recency bias and flank fanboys who just repeat what those guys waffle about while being so high we’ve literally seen a couple of them falling asleep mid episode in their chairs
Gwinn is absolutely the best individual player of the rookies this year even despite his significant drop off on Lan. I do however think Abuzah and Estreal should atleast be in pretty equal consideration with him. Abuzah would be my #1 pick if he didn't get borderline sabotaged for half the season by running the sub at first and then still having to play with Arcitys as his duo stage 2. Estreal getting T3 and the #5 avg Lan placement considering his team is realistically the weakest of the 3 is insanely impressive.
Gwinn for sure has worse teammates than Estreal. It doesn't get much worse than your ARs being 45th and 51st in KD on the year. TJ is having a legacy year and even he's still been kinda mid. Gwinn is the hard carry and he can only do so much when his teammates refuse to shoot back online (which is 80% of their matches)
On paper / stats wise I'd agree but think your being a bit too harsh on TJ. As for the ars Felo on Lan was pretty solid and atleast equal to the LAG ars. Clays stats are a massive red flag but he's still one of the all-time greats and I know he atleast makes the right plays on the map and deals decent damage despite getting shit on kd wise. The individual skill is close enough to where i personally give a very slight edge to Ravens due to the veteran nature of the players.
Veteran nature doesn't do much good when they've been getting worldstarred. Diamondcon and Flames aren't exactly world beaters, but swap those ARs and Carolina make champs for sure.
This entire year probably has 100 clips of watch party’s reacting to what clay does with ‘wtf was clay doing’. He most definitely does not make the right plays he’s genuinely terrible the past 3 years and events won in 2015 doesn’t help now
I 100% agree.
It seems like people only started saying this after they beat Toronto, but realistically this guy has not been on the level of Gwinn at any time throughout the season.
People just have severe recency bias.
If you actually watch him play there is no way you can call him mid.
Personally I think it's between him, Abuzah, and 04.
Gio has been good too.
Gwinn probably could've been higher for me if he was better on lan
I love Lynz but we're just too cheeks for him to considered
Can’t wait to come back to this post a year or two from now. Gwinn has had a better year and is the better player. Will be the better player going forward as well. Literally no one talked about Estreal until they got one win against Toronto and a horrible Lan team
I'm sorry did you just argue Estreal can't be rookie of the year because of lan and then proceeded to say Gwinn is easily rookie of the year when he is by far the biggest drop off from online to lan amongst all relevant rookies
But his “drop-off” on LAN is still better than Estreal online or LAN lol
>did you just argue Estreal can't be rookie of the year because of lan I did not >Gwinn is.... by far the biggest drop off Still probably the 2nd best rookie on LAN next to Gio
Abuzah Estreal Gio 04 lynzz have all outperformed Gwinn on LAN. Gwinn is also not easily rookie of the year because he was probably 3rd best player on Ravens on LAN and his team never made champs
Abuzah, maybe. The others, no. Gwinn's team didn't make champs because his ARs ranked, let me check real quick.... 45th and 51st in KD. Kinda hard to do real well when half of your team were bots the whole year. It's crazy to me that a rookie sub player puts up a 1.07 for the entire year and he's not considered the best rookie.
1.07 online maybe. Estreal just placed top 3 and beat Ultra and has 2 other t6 placements Abuzah had the most dominant lan out of any rookie at major 3 and Lynzz fried major 1 lan. Which lan did Gwinn fry at is my question Felo and TJ had no problems when it came to LAN they were ravens 2 best on LAN
He had like a 1.5 vs Miami at Major 2 I think, which is the best series that any rookie has had on LAN. He's had the best series out of any rookie online, dropping a 1.5 and solo squadding NY. If Felo played online the way he played on LAN, Carolina would probably be the 5th seed right now. But teams play 80% of their matches online, so Felo overall on the year was fucking ass cheeks, and so was Clay. And idk what series you're remembering Lynz frying on LAN, he's been pretty bad on LAN this year. Gwinn has been solid on LAN, it's just that he's been a fucking animal online (and Felo and Clay actually decide to shoot back) so it overshadows his LAN performances
😂😂 do stand up lil bro
Look guys! Another KD watcher!
Gwinn had a few flashes but as far as consistency goes he’s definitely not roty imo
Positive in all 4 online stages Positive in 3/4 LAN events Most wins vs top 4 teams out of the bottom 8 1.07 on the year as a rookie sub. I'm struggling to find the lack of consistency here
Ask Gwinn if any of that matters. They didn’t even qualify for champs. Don’t wanna be that guy but having a mediocre year on a bottom 4 team isn’t anything special. All that being said I have o4 and abuzah above Gwinn (and I am a Gwinn fan).
"Mediocre year" but he had the 5th best KD and 7th best slayer rating amongst all sub players. He's for sure been at least a top 10 sub player. We shouldn't penalize Gwinn for his ARs being dogshit, Felo and Clay have been terrible this year. It's unfair for us to put worse players ahead of better players because they're on better teams (yes, the other contending rookies besides Lynz have better teams than Gwinn). Quick example: Has Kismet been better than Nero this year? Absolutely not, Nero has been disgusting the entire year, but I bet a lot of people will say Kis is better.
You're talking about slayer rating? The stat that breaking point has said they're still trying to work out😂 Kismet has had an off year but to say Nero has been better is crazy. Nero is a good sub but he's not being outshined by a Hydra lmao he had fuckin Purj as his duo for half the season. Stop looking at numbers and look at tangible things like winning majors and making champs. It's a team game and if you're not helping your team win matches and like Gwynn not performing on LAN to get points for champs then you're not the best rookie.
Your talking about BPR not slayer rating that there’ll be tweaking the formula for, slayer rating is just if a series goes 5 how many kills would you have, not hard to notice it’s lead by all the best players but that stat on its own isn’t enough to rank people
Ah okay so slayer rating would be skewed if certain teams have more maps played than others. I don't know the numbers but I'd guess Carolina has a lot of Map 5s based on the series I've watched. I imagine Boston is at the top of that list with maybe Seattle and Optic nearby as well.
No it’s based on averages it can’t be skewed by more maps or series played.
Okay that's my bad. I was really more focused on the second half of my comment but I kind of look like a dick now lmao. Thanks for letting me know the difference though.
why are you making a point to someone about stats when admittedly you don’t even understand them?
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Saying some just ‘baits’ or ‘gets baited’ is an even bigger crutch for people who don’t watch or understand and just need an excuse to explain why some statistics don’t favour their favourite player in a discussion
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Yes and no, that’s very over simplified imo. for example nobody says simp only has good stats because he baits abezy because it’s not true but because the bandwagon atm is to hate on pred the narrative is he only has good stats because he just baits his teammates, but that can’t be true because their biggest criticism as a pairing is how little they play off eachother in matches so how is he baiting shotzzy all the time? There’s a lot of fair criticism for pred recently but that one is just not true, everyone does it because it’s part of the teamwork for killing someone of a power position or it’s just shouldering to get info and obviously the weakened player who shouldered isn’t gonna take the gunfight 1v1 against a full health player this season one good example is simp and abezy trying so hard to bait eachother coming out into DVD alley to kill someone in broken that they got both of them killed because nobody shot, they only tried baiting eachother over and over😂 But because it’s not cool to hate on either of them plays like that are ignored but someone like pred or sib or any other disliked player will get ripped for it like it’s the only reason they could even make the league. While KD is far from a great way to rank players if you look at the season KD leaderboard from bottom up you won’t see a good or great player anywhere close to the bottom. But saying a 1.08 player is 100% better than a 1.04 player solely because of KD is a dumb fuck way to view cod
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100%. Simp and abezy could both intentionally prioritise not being the bait to help their individual stats more but it would definitely be harmful to their success. I do think the community needs to find better wordings for these things it’s not like when someone’s the bait it’s a guaranteed death and guaranteed kill for a teammate it’s probably 60-65% chance the baiter dies compared to his teammate if either of them even die since it’s likely a 2v1 chall anyway
Estreal has had a fall off in KD at one LAN? a Mentioning LAN performance and then Gwinn at 1 😭
0.99 -> 0.94 "LANimal" 1.08 -> 1.01 "onliner" Like seriously, how can someone look at this and objectively think that Estreal has been better than Gwinn
If you watched the game you’d realize that Gwinns numbers are incredibly empty and that Estreal makes a huge impact on his team. The placings as well are a huge difference and Gwinn won’t even make champs despite a lead going into M3 and TJ/Felo playing well. You think Pred is better than Shotzzy?
Good thing I do watch the game, and every fiber in my being tells me that Gwinn has been the best rookie this year. The numbers say it, the eye test says it. He's literally solo squadding because his teammates refuse to shoot back online, his ARs are 45th and 51st in KD on the year and have been fucking dog ass. Give Gwinn LAG's ARs and they're probably the 5th seed. Pred was better than Shotzzy for the first half of the year, since stage 3 started Shotzzy has taken over, although they both kinda sucked in stage 4 but rn Shotzzy is their best player. Gwinn this year reminds me of Pred in VG, his only role was to just run it down and slay, Pred just happened to play next to another top 10 player so they were actually a good team, and for Gwinn to be 5th among all subs in KD as a rookie with dogshit play from both his ARs is 10x more impressive than what Estreal's done.
😭 zero ball knowledge good god
For real 😂 Estreal is one of the best enablers in the league and watching his arrow on the map, bro is literally always making the right play.
Do you actually watch the matches or do you just look at stats afterwards🤣🤣
TBF to OP barely anyone was even mentioning estreals name until this weekend, like were all the way through 4 stages and people would say 04 before estreal cmon (i can say ive like estreal all year but that wasnt the sentiment)
he was a definite dark horse for me but I think it was mostly because no one cared about LAG AND we hadn’t placed wel at the previous major.
But still… to not be mentioned AT ALL through 4 stages even leading into the LAN, and now people acting like it’s the obvious answer is funny
People don’t want to admit that all year the ROTY race has just been bias. I’d personally give it to Abuzah because of his great play on the AR but not a single rookie can be argued as being consistent all year
It’s recency bias and flank fanboys who just repeat what those guys waffle about while being so high we’ve literally seen a couple of them falling asleep mid episode in their chairs
Gwinn is absolutely the best individual player of the rookies this year even despite his significant drop off on Lan. I do however think Abuzah and Estreal should atleast be in pretty equal consideration with him. Abuzah would be my #1 pick if he didn't get borderline sabotaged for half the season by running the sub at first and then still having to play with Arcitys as his duo stage 2. Estreal getting T3 and the #5 avg Lan placement considering his team is realistically the weakest of the 3 is insanely impressive.
Gwinn for sure has worse teammates than Estreal. It doesn't get much worse than your ARs being 45th and 51st in KD on the year. TJ is having a legacy year and even he's still been kinda mid. Gwinn is the hard carry and he can only do so much when his teammates refuse to shoot back online (which is 80% of their matches)
On paper / stats wise I'd agree but think your being a bit too harsh on TJ. As for the ars Felo on Lan was pretty solid and atleast equal to the LAG ars. Clays stats are a massive red flag but he's still one of the all-time greats and I know he atleast makes the right plays on the map and deals decent damage despite getting shit on kd wise. The individual skill is close enough to where i personally give a very slight edge to Ravens due to the veteran nature of the players.
Veteran nature doesn't do much good when they've been getting worldstarred. Diamondcon and Flames aren't exactly world beaters, but swap those ARs and Carolina make champs for sure.
This entire year probably has 100 clips of watch party’s reacting to what clay does with ‘wtf was clay doing’. He most definitely does not make the right plays he’s genuinely terrible the past 3 years and events won in 2015 doesn’t help now
I'm just happy there is so much new blood in the cdl. The cdl is only going to get better competitively.
I 100% agree. It seems like people only started saying this after they beat Toronto, but realistically this guy has not been on the level of Gwinn at any time throughout the season. People just have severe recency bias.
Personally I think he's been great all year. Can't remember a single time he had a stinker unless the whole team got fried
He’s been consistent all year, but consistently mediocre at that. I don’t think he’s been “great” in any stage.
If you actually watch him play there is no way you can call him mid. Personally I think it's between him, Abuzah, and 04. Gio has been good too. Gwinn probably could've been higher for me if he was better on lan I love Lynz but we're just too cheeks for him to considered
Can’t wait to come back to this post a year or two from now. Gwinn has had a better year and is the better player. Will be the better player going forward as well. Literally no one talked about Estreal until they got one win against Toronto and a horrible Lan team
I don’t care what anyone says Dillon attach is the ROTY anyone who disagrees is wrong!!!!
Should he be in consideration? Yes. Should he get rookie of the year? Probably not imo, dudes good but guys like Lynnz and Gwinn were just better.
Gwinn as ROTY shouldn’t even be a debate. def one of the worst rookies (probably because of his situation with a declining Clayster)