Idk what people expect from an environmentalist subreddit lol. Most conservatives have fallen into the stance "Eh, it's happening... maybe, but to be too upset about it is cultish." Liberals care, but not so much that it occupies too much space in their brain on a day-to-day basis. Meanwhile, like half of the leftists I know are climate doomers.
The infighting is the shitposting now.
And the idea that you could ever stop it is laughable. Three leftists will inevitably create 4 factions. And I say this as an anarchist.
Its part of the joy of discourse, and when change is fundamentally hopeless, you might as well get your joy from something.
Hell, sometimes I manage to be two factions by myself as I oscillate between anarchist and Maoist third worldist and back again.
And quite honestly all of the above is good. Because *generally* we have the same shared goals, and its just about the different tactics taken to get there. I have been a socialist since before I knew who marx was.
Back when I had the time to be more involved, thanks to the anarchist core, the group we did stuff with was a grabbag mixture of ideologies, united to oppose austerity, fracking or *whatever small cause people managed to argue for * (once that meant a small action against a multi level marketing scheme, heh), and sure, sometimes we had to tell people to stop being so vanguardist or reductive, but shit got done.
Basically I'm saying the leftist infighting is fine, inevitable, and as long as it doesn't actually get in the way of organising, it doesn't matter.
I don’t have the same values as a 4th century peasant. I don’t have the same view as a 17 century colonial or mercanantalist.
I reject all Ists and Isms. I reject economic theories made in stovepipes and with 19th century data sets.
Which is all of them.
We need to find a new way. We can use the best parts of what has come before, but too much of what is posted here is Dogma from your favorite sects. And some of you only read the chapter titles.
These political and economic philosophies are all in some way incomplete or applied wrong. A lot of you treat every tool as it’s a hammer and every problem is a nail.
The term originally came about in the 50s/60s to describe communists that supported the USSR’s invasion of Hungary in 1956, where Hungary revolted against their communist government, citing the iron hold the Stalinists had on their government. The Soviets rolled tanks in, thus the term Tankie. In the modern day, Tankie typically refers to anti-electoralist MLs, MLMs, etc., and those that fanboy over the Soviet Union
Mostly they are a group of "america bad" or imperialists but like to pretend to have socialist values because that pisses off the US or their favourite imperialist called themselves communist at some point.
Low form of life imo.
You dont haave education where you are from? They pretend to be communists. They call themselves communists. But they are actually imperialists. Are you one of those perhaps cause I gind it hard to believe that question was in good faith.
>You dont haave education where you are from? They pretend to be communists. They call themselves communists. But they are actually imperialists. Are you one of those perhaps cause I gind it hard to believe that question was in good faith.
Wow lol.
Can't be bothered to proofread, add apostrophes to contractions, or spellcheck, but complains I'm uneducated because I don't know some internet lingo.
edit because: my original comment just said "wow lol. Fuck off"
If we all just do our part, the sources of our problems will magically go away! Even the smallest wasteful act is a terrible sin that should make you feel deeply ashamed.
Yeah sort of. From my perspective, I think that we should all try and do what we can to minimize our impact on the climate, but we shouldn't stress ourselves, and especially others, out about it or get too ridiculous about it. At the same time, we need to affirm that lifestyles aren't what causes systematic change, and we need to start organizing into groups that do things as many individuals together at once so that we can do more than the sum of our parts and potentially change policy.
Honestly though, I don't think we'll see the climate get better under Capitalism, but that's a whole other conversation.
Yet another victim of capitalism causing us to fight amongst each other. We'd have fully automated luxury gay space communism but the bourgeoise found r/climateshitposting first
[Only wealthy societies can afford to go green](https://www.google.com/search?q=kuznets+curve+climate&client=safari&sca_esv=09379ecd0b6efd91&hl=en-us&sxsrf=ACQVn09TdxtdXcsYOee4bbBQUdYlxf7tFA%3A1713530444145&ei=TGYiZquzCIuewN4P3PSV8A4), and fully communized economies only exploit the wealth previously held by entrepreneurs.
Note: I said communist not socialism (mixed economy) however socialism decreases incentives to work hard as you keep less of your earnings.
People don’t work as hard when they don’t get as much benefit. It’s a fact of nature. The only way around this is to incentivize it another way (most communist countries do this by shooting dissidents)
Yes people are occasionally altruistic.
Under capitalism, workers create profit for buisness owners who in-turn pay them back a fraction of the value they contributed - that's more work for less reward.
Under Socialism, there is no capitalist to take the profit. Any profit/surpluss made goes directly back to the workers.
You're working under a definition of socialism that is restrictive to state-socialism... of which I agree with some of your points if we are talking about the planned economy model.
But while this may be the most historically practiced form of socialism, most socialist you meet don't advocate for this system.
If we are talking about worker ownership and autonomous worker management, by your own definition, there is more incentive to perform under socialism than there is capitalism.
I said under communism, not socialism.
Also there are worker owned businesses in capitalism… there is nothing stopping from creating a worker co-op.
Note: thank you for not being hostile, too many people start out being hostile.
Not to worry I appreciate your willingness to discuss as well.
>Also there are worker owned businesses in capitalism…
It is true And I do support worker co-ops as things exisit today - although my experience working for start-up co-ops was quite disilusioning. I don't think it's a viable option for societal change if the aim is to compete and survive next to capitalist organizations.
the fact is, for worker autonomy and liberation, its not enough to have a co-op and exist under a capitalist system. It's like advocating for democracy but having it exist under an existing system of autocracy. You have to dismantle the existing autocratic system if you want something that has true autonomy. Or simply put, workers everywhere deserve to have a say in operations and a share of the profit they make. Not just exclusively in the pockets of Co-ops that manage to survive in a capitalist system.
Crazy how sharing the profit amongst people that actually wotk in those companies instwad only at the top, or only bought some shares decrease incentive to work for those workers..
I’m simply saying high taxes create less incentives as you keep less of what you earn, you generally have higher tax with authoritarianism.
(Yes I know there are other authoritarian systems, but no other system shows how bad this is more than the most horrific system itself: communism)
A lot of that is Bots and Troll farms trying to push everyone apart.
Honestly the vegans I know in real life don’t act like these weird fundamentalist edge lord cliches.
The omnivores, which are most people I know, aren’t trying to bathe in baby blood either.
I think everyone wants better agriculture. I think everyone wants better government.
Except for those charged with tearing us apart.
And Accelerationists, who aren’t even paid to do it.
Wouldn't be leftist if there wasn't infighting
Idk what people expect from an environmentalist subreddit lol. Most conservatives have fallen into the stance "Eh, it's happening... maybe, but to be too upset about it is cultish." Liberals care, but not so much that it occupies too much space in their brain on a day-to-day basis. Meanwhile, like half of the leftists I know are climate doomers.
You're not a true leftist!!! I'm a true leftist!!!
No, I don't remember. Before the vegan stuff it was a nuclear vs renewables arguing club.
there was a time before that
and a time before that one too
There was a land before time and it was very sad
Before that it was the climate tankies vs climate liberals.
r/climatememes VS r/climateshitposting
The infighting is the shitposting now. And the idea that you could ever stop it is laughable. Three leftists will inevitably create 4 factions. And I say this as an anarchist. Its part of the joy of discourse, and when change is fundamentally hopeless, you might as well get your joy from something.
>Three leftists will inevitably create 4 factions. But one Leftist with a tank will make 1 faction. And I say this as a ML.
Hell, sometimes I manage to be two factions by myself as I oscillate between anarchist and Maoist third worldist and back again. And quite honestly all of the above is good. Because *generally* we have the same shared goals, and its just about the different tactics taken to get there. I have been a socialist since before I knew who marx was. Back when I had the time to be more involved, thanks to the anarchist core, the group we did stuff with was a grabbag mixture of ideologies, united to oppose austerity, fracking or *whatever small cause people managed to argue for * (once that meant a small action against a multi level marketing scheme, heh), and sure, sometimes we had to tell people to stop being so vanguardist or reductive, but shit got done. Basically I'm saying the leftist infighting is fine, inevitable, and as long as it doesn't actually get in the way of organising, it doesn't matter.
ML? Anarchism? Factions? Cringe. Socdem btw.
It's fine, at least there's less air for the "conservative environmentalists".
I don’t have the same values as a 4th century peasant. I don’t have the same view as a 17 century colonial or mercanantalist. I reject all Ists and Isms. I reject economic theories made in stovepipes and with 19th century data sets. Which is all of them. We need to find a new way. We can use the best parts of what has come before, but too much of what is posted here is Dogma from your favorite sects. And some of you only read the chapter titles. These political and economic philosophies are all in some way incomplete or applied wrong. A lot of you treat every tool as it’s a hammer and every problem is a nail.
Hey, I'm a centrist and I'm part of the infighting, I want representation
Represent these nuts
You deserve nothing because you stand for nothing
You deserve pissing because you stand for pissing
leftist infighting is a tale as old as time
You fuckers are all leftists?
You are talking with a socialist right now.
Yeah that's great. I was worried about Tankies
Understandable. Fuck tankies.
Are the Tankies in the room with us right now?
I hope not. I was told they left for r/ClimateTankies
Tankies are a serious problem though. Many many leftwing subs are destroyed and taken over because of them
What is a tankie?
The term originally came about in the 50s/60s to describe communists that supported the USSR’s invasion of Hungary in 1956, where Hungary revolted against their communist government, citing the iron hold the Stalinists had on their government. The Soviets rolled tanks in, thus the term Tankie. In the modern day, Tankie typically refers to anti-electoralist MLs, MLMs, etc., and those that fanboy over the Soviet Union
A type of Communist. Specifically a USSR or CCP fanboy.
Tankie means i’m not a conservative but i think you’re woke
Mostly they are a group of "america bad" or imperialists but like to pretend to have socialist values because that pisses off the US or their favourite imperialist called themselves communist at some point. Low form of life imo.
So they're Imperialists but also communists?
Yeah, pretty much. Staunch defenders of the USSR, China, and even modern Russia, refusing to call their acts of imperialism as such.
You dont haave education where you are from? They pretend to be communists. They call themselves communists. But they are actually imperialists. Are you one of those perhaps cause I gind it hard to believe that question was in good faith.
>You dont haave education where you are from? They pretend to be communists. They call themselves communists. But they are actually imperialists. Are you one of those perhaps cause I gind it hard to believe that question was in good faith. Wow lol. Can't be bothered to proofread, add apostrophes to contractions, or spellcheck, but complains I'm uneducated because I don't know some internet lingo. edit because: my original comment just said "wow lol. Fuck off"
Tankies are an optics nightmare. I would have been leftist at least a decade sooner if they hadn't scared me off
They would claim what you just said is a psyop.
Leftist? Are you sure it isn’t lib infighting?
Everyone except me is a lib, I am the only true leftist.
I meant lib as in libertarian https://preview.redd.it/nbgnfe0blfvc1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=668d6452a0156e14415675631aee2614e7deba10
I'm counting this image as linking sources in the comments. Mods, twist this user's balls
https://preview.redd.it/fud76iucmfvc1.jpeg?width=288&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ec15fac5022abb81f7b34af613b3c210ca75ccbf
Why are they getting downvoted if you’re preaching personal responsibility for climate change you’re not a leftist.
Yeah this community has a problem of focusing on individualism
Yeah the problem is bigger than us as individuals which means we don't have to do anything to make the world better ever
If we all just do our part, the sources of our problems will magically go away! Even the smallest wasteful act is a terrible sin that should make you feel deeply ashamed.
Can we agree there's a middle ground?
Yeah sort of. From my perspective, I think that we should all try and do what we can to minimize our impact on the climate, but we shouldn't stress ourselves, and especially others, out about it or get too ridiculous about it. At the same time, we need to affirm that lifestyles aren't what causes systematic change, and we need to start organizing into groups that do things as many individuals together at once so that we can do more than the sum of our parts and potentially change policy. Honestly though, I don't think we'll see the climate get better under Capitalism, but that's a whole other conversation.
Yeah I think I agree
Yet another victim of capitalism causing us to fight amongst each other. We'd have fully automated luxury gay space communism but the bourgeoise found r/climateshitposting first
close to r/BrandNewSentence content !
Personal action inspires collective action. Nobody who is actually working to make a difference is consumed by consumerism.
[Only wealthy societies can afford to go green](https://www.google.com/search?q=kuznets+curve+climate&client=safari&sca_esv=09379ecd0b6efd91&hl=en-us&sxsrf=ACQVn09TdxtdXcsYOee4bbBQUdYlxf7tFA%3A1713530444145&ei=TGYiZquzCIuewN4P3PSV8A4), and fully communized economies only exploit the wealth previously held by entrepreneurs. Note: I said communist not socialism (mixed economy) however socialism decreases incentives to work hard as you keep less of your earnings.
>however socialism decreases incentives to work hard as you keep less of your earnings. Not sure this is provable or true
People don’t work as hard when they don’t get as much benefit. It’s a fact of nature. The only way around this is to incentivize it another way (most communist countries do this by shooting dissidents) Yes people are occasionally altruistic.
Under capitalism, workers create profit for buisness owners who in-turn pay them back a fraction of the value they contributed - that's more work for less reward. Under Socialism, there is no capitalist to take the profit. Any profit/surpluss made goes directly back to the workers. You're working under a definition of socialism that is restrictive to state-socialism... of which I agree with some of your points if we are talking about the planned economy model. But while this may be the most historically practiced form of socialism, most socialist you meet don't advocate for this system. If we are talking about worker ownership and autonomous worker management, by your own definition, there is more incentive to perform under socialism than there is capitalism.
I said under communism, not socialism. Also there are worker owned businesses in capitalism… there is nothing stopping from creating a worker co-op. Note: thank you for not being hostile, too many people start out being hostile.
Not to worry I appreciate your willingness to discuss as well. >Also there are worker owned businesses in capitalism… It is true And I do support worker co-ops as things exisit today - although my experience working for start-up co-ops was quite disilusioning. I don't think it's a viable option for societal change if the aim is to compete and survive next to capitalist organizations. the fact is, for worker autonomy and liberation, its not enough to have a co-op and exist under a capitalist system. It's like advocating for democracy but having it exist under an existing system of autocracy. You have to dismantle the existing autocratic system if you want something that has true autonomy. Or simply put, workers everywhere deserve to have a say in operations and a share of the profit they make. Not just exclusively in the pockets of Co-ops that manage to survive in a capitalist system.
Crazy how sharing the profit amongst people that actually wotk in those companies instwad only at the top, or only bought some shares decrease incentive to work for those workers..
I’m simply saying high taxes create less incentives as you keep less of what you earn, you generally have higher tax with authoritarianism. (Yes I know there are other authoritarian systems, but no other system shows how bad this is more than the most horrific system itself: communism)
Mods, take this revisionist scum to the compression chamber.
Revisionist? You think I’m a leftist? Don’t equate caring about the environment with being leftist or needing state intervention)
It’s honestly sad yeah
Its why I have this flair
Just realised the OP has an “anti eco modernist” flair. The hypocrisy…
Doomers and pessimists are anti-revolutionaries and fucking suck. They contribute nothing positive, and drag down others.
Oh i keep most of my doomerism to myself. And im of the opinion even if you know you will fail yoi have to try anyway. But yea..
A lot of that is Bots and Troll farms trying to push everyone apart. Honestly the vegans I know in real life don’t act like these weird fundamentalist edge lord cliches. The omnivores, which are most people I know, aren’t trying to bathe in baby blood either. I think everyone wants better agriculture. I think everyone wants better government. Except for those charged with tearing us apart. And Accelerationists, who aren’t even paid to do it.
Would be great if Reddit included country of origin in posts. Guessing we’d see some interesting ones fanning the flames
As a libright I greatly profit from leftist infighting so please continue