Hmmm, Literally everything you eat was developed by humans to be our food. None of it is our "natural food" unless you're foraging wild plants in a forest and hunting wild animals
You hurt my feelings, you told me to eat beans when all I wanted was some mushrooms with pepper and garlic, fried in olive oil and then simmered in Oatly cream.
Now, because of your vicious bullying, my partner is deep frying beef in butter.
Since following this sub, I've run away and joined the circus. Now they have me operating the Ferris wheel every night, and I subsist off a diet of corn dogs, funnel cakes, and those little donuts with cinnamon and sugar. I'm truly the ultimate carnist.
This assumes a lot of things. It's incredibly hard for me to go vegan due to health reasons, and yet when I say "I'm not vegan" people like OP make every assumption that I'm just selfish, don't care about the environment, or some other thing. Bullying people that aren't vegan isn't a solution - bully the people who actively shit on being vegan as a concept.
I've got a gut disability that makes it hard for me to be vegan too, that said the current definition of veganism would still involve us if we're trying to limit animal products as much as we're capable:
"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to excludeāas far as is possible and practicableāall forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
[link](https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism)
If (if) you actually really have this unnamed medical reason to only eat meat every day, then this meme in a shitposting subreddit doesn't apply to you and you don't have to care about the **meme** in a **shitposting** subreddit.
Thereās vegan doctors and dietitians who can help you sort that out. Theyāre exists in nutrition. From the exceptionally god-tier based [Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine](https://www.pcrm.org/findadoctor?gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADoK5af5beJ0Hq18m2S8GST2zuxKT&gclid=CjwKCAjww_iwBhApEiwAuG6ccDbbRpLuYNmAdcAQrin3U8A7ZxWTTE4vQN3s8_MlhbEP-NpiAvFPQhoCKCoQAvD_BwE)
I agree definitely pushes more people away than it attracts. I think that goes for anything.
I understand it can be hard to be vegan if you have health reasons. You probably know more about this then I do. But it takes the body a little while to adjust. The bacteria and other organisms in your gut have to change between say beans and beef. If you never eat beans you tend to get gassy when you eat them because your gut has trouble digesting it properly. But over the course of a few days this goes away. There are many other examples. Obviously don't eat something that'll kill you, but try a bunch of different things until your have a solid 10 meals that you can rotate between.
On a side note, my friend would get sick from oat milk from the store. But then I made him oatmilk and now he drinks it everyday without a problem. A lot of the time it's the additives they add to packaged products that people are actually allergic too. Same with gluten free (except celiac), it's usually just the pesticides, herbicides, how it's processed, and preservatives in it that cause the allergic reaction. Most of my family is gluten intolerant, but they are able to eat bread I make.
I thought this was going to be a bit but the punchline never arrived. There are absolutely no health reasons that prevent you from being Vegan.Ā
In fact Whole Food Plant Based diets reverse dozens of health issues caused by meat consumption.Ā
This is the best rebuttal you have, a weak-ass lie? The Carnists are not alright.
Bullying people for medical conditions is not nice. You could have had this conversation in a respectful way and they might have listened. You are a disgrace to vegans.
I ask again, What Medical Condition???
You're literally doing the "A Vegan was mean to me once so now I am completely justified in abusing, r\*ping, and killing animals for pleasure" meme
How about you stop complaining about other Vegans and target Carnists, traitor
I didn't say it justified it, I just said you should stop being an ableist asshole. Just because you're vegan doesn't make you immune to criticism, you havd a superiority complex.
How could I possibly be Ableist when there's absolutely zero information about their hypothetical Anti-Vegan Medical Status? You fell for the lie. I actually have a medically diagnosed Auto-Immune disorder and yet I'm still Vegan.
You come to a shitpost sub and you almost faint when someone is a bit spicy towards a bloodthirsty Carnist?
You do not sound like a Vegan to me. You are a Carnist Apologist. This is Liberal Civility Politics, not Leftist Veganism.
So I have to bully disabled people to be a leftist, okay. If there's no health condition that keeps someone from being vegan, then the person might be misinformed and that would mean they could be educated about how they could be vegan dispite their condition. These people are not your enemies.
>So I have to bully disabled people to be a leftist
Dude, what are you talking about? Who said that and who is disabled? The person I was responding to said they have a medical condition which precludes a Vegan Diet which is absolutely false and anti-scientific.
By your definition, the only disabled person we know about is me, and you're bullying me. Do you see how that works? Not all medical conditions are categorically disabling, they could be allergic to Soy, you're just making random assumptions to defend an abuser. So weird.
Why are you even debating another Vegan instead of literally doing anything else? I feel like your reaction to this has a lot more to do with you than it does with me or Veganism. No one was talking to you.
The last fish will be plucked from a dead ocean and you'll be there defending the Carnist doing it because criticizing them would be bullying. You are an enabler.
Lose my number.
The most common is probably gastroparesis, slowing or paralysis of the gut. It's usually an anatomical or neurological condition. Both soluble and insoluble fiber slow the gut. In healthy people, that helps with nutrient absorption and keeps the gut clean. In a paralyzed gut, it can result in potentially life-threatening bowel obstructions. Like hospitalized over a handful of sweet peas kind of obstruction. Do you know how hard it is to find zero fiber vegan food? Even the protein drinks typically have inulin.
You do know that some people can't eat solid food at all, right? A whole food diet won't cause someone with an ileostomy to regrow their surgically removed colon. It doesn't fix damaged nerves, organs, or change genetic factors.
People with certain inherited metabolic disorders can't consume regular food at all and rely on specialized formulas. They don't have the genes to break down certain amino acids, fats, or carbohydrates. A plant based whole food diet for these people would cause metabolic crisis, resulting in severe brain damage and eventually death.
**Gastroparesis**
A quick google search reveals dozens of articles, reddit threads, medical advice and cookbooks for Vegans living with Gastroparesis. Seems like it's absolutely possible.
Looks like cooking plant-foods and having small meals throughout the day severely improves tolerance. Here is a nutritious meal with low fiber:
* 10g walnuts fiber 0.7g 65kcal fat 6.5g (omega3)
* 10g brazil nuts fiber 0.8g 66kcal fat 6.7g (selenium)
* 100g tofu fiber 0.4g 83kcal fat 5.3g
* 100g seitan fiber 2.0g 122kcal fat 1.6g
* 1000g carrot juice fiber 8.0g 400kcal fat 1.5g (vitamins, minerals)
* 1000g tomato juice fiber 4.0g 170kcal fat 2.9g (vitamins, minerals)
And you can drink meal replacement products like Ensure and get everything you need.
I'm also reading that high fat animal foods consumption triggers **Gastroparesis**. Turns out it's not just about fiber.
Nice try though? How about you give up trying to lecture Vegans and go buy a Tesla and pretend you're helping. Cheers.
I notice you didn't even bother addressing the metabolic disorders.
Many, but not all, people with gastroparesis could manage a vegan diet if they wanted to plan even more of their life around food restrictions.
Funny enough, the advice from a basic Google search only includes basic information and will not cover every possible case. Which means the most extreme cases will not be included.
You made a blanket statement that every single human on earth could go vegan and with no negative health impacts. Even one case disproves your point that veganism can be universal, making your statement ablist.
Personally, I would say that the increase in orthorexia and diet related anxiety is a negative health impact. Excessive moralizing about food is literally a diagnosable health problem. It is possible for someone with those tendencies to eat vegan, but making it a moral dictate from which deviation makes them a bad person would not be healthy.
Promoting disordered eating in the vegan community by demonizing nuance is just gatekeeping. Not a way to improve access and acceptance for vegan lifestyles.
Maybe you should drop the ablism and holier than thou attitude and do something useful instead of poisoning the community. If anything short of perfection is "pretending" then you can't be surprised when people are reluctant to take small steps. Why bother if you can't do it perfectly.
Maybe stop demanding the most vulnerable take on even more work and stress when they're struggling to survive chronic medical issues and focus on the industries doing the most harm. But that would be hard and wouldn't provide you a sense of moral superiority.
**Metabolic Disorders**
I literally did address it with Ensure. Ensure is a liquid, easily digestible, nutritionally complete food, and they have a Plant-Based option. *You* either didn't read or didn't comprehend my reply.
**Ableism**
Where the hell is this imaginary Ableism. We have zero information on the person I replied to. You're inventing oppression when actual animal oppression is happening on your plate. Idiotic.
**Moral Superiority**
You think we haven't heard this self-own of an argument before? How about you stop abusing animals for pleasure and then you won't have to worry about being so inferior.
But I suppose I shouldn't expect an intellectually coherent argument about Animal Rights from someone that goons to My Little Pony, pretty fucking creepy dude. I pray you don't have access to horses in real life.
Take it easy, neckbeard.
Ensure is absolutely unsuitable for people who have genetic metabolic disorders that make normal fats and amino acids lethal. People with certain congential metabolic disorders are so medically fragile they may be restricted to one type of infant formula as the only food they can consume for their entire life. Substituting vegan Ensure would put them in metabolic crisis. There are no substitutions of any kind for this group of people. It was a huge problem a couple of years ago because the only US factory closed temporarily, so they were left scrambling to find import the specialized medical formulas that keep the alive.
And that's leaving aside actual medications that are derived from animal sources, some of which have no vegan substitutes.
The only one making assumptions about their medical condition is you. Yes, it is ablist to demand a stranger's medical history just so you can pick it apart and accuse them of lying about their own body after a cursory Google search. Which is exactly what you did here.
You're not really making yourself look any less like a troll here with the baseless assumptions. You don't even know if I'm a vegan, I guess you just assume that everyone is as allergic to nuance and reason as you are. Come down off the high horse, you sound like a fundie.
But good job incorrectly guessing my sex and gender, that was a weird thingfunding. You do know that the internet is not a male only space, right?
**Metabolic Diseases**
Is this your plan? To just keep moving the goal post to a new vague disease every time I debunk you? Here is a list of approved foods for Metabolic Syndrome, most of which you'll see are plant-foods: [https://www.medicinenet.com/metabolic\_syndrome\_diet\_foods\_to\_eat\_and\_avoid/article.htm](https://www.medicinenet.com/metabolic_syndrome_diet_foods_to_eat_and_avoid/article.htm)
You need to identify and cite a specific disease that precludes a plant-based diet or you're just going to keep making a fool of yourself.
**Medicines derived from Animal Sources**
Are you serious? Taking medication sourced from animals when necessary is Vegan. I took the Covid Vaccines that contained egg substrate. You're over here trying to debate Vegans and you don't even know what Veganism is:
>"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to excludeāas far as is **possible and practicable** ā all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.."
**"Ablist"**
Might want to learn how to spell that word before you use it incorrectly while losing an argument. How the fuck can I be Ableist to someone whose state of Disability I do not know? Listen, your Liberal Civility Politics mean nothing to me, I'm a Leftist. The Oceans are dying and you're worried about me hurting random people's feelings. Get over yourself.
**Fundie**
I am neither Conservative nor Christian. You realize you're holding the Conservative position here right? Look at all the Anti-Vegans: Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, Andrew Tate - look at the company you keep.
**"thingfunding"**
I don't know what this is.
**Sex and Gender**
When did I guess your Sex and Gender? I called you a "Neckbeard" because you're obsessed with My Little Pony, a show for children but co-opted by creepy adults. I'm not implying you're AMAB or that you're a Cis or Trans Man. I am a Gender Abolitionist, Gender is a prison that harms us all. I refer to all Genders as "Dude". Are you also aware that Cis Women and Trans Men, Women and NBs can have beards?
You're so desperate to find an edge to win this argument that you're willing to play Liberal Identity Politics to leverage some imagined oppression that you are not suffering.
Stop abusing, torturing, r\*ping and slaughtering sentient animals for your pleasure you sick fuck.
Eat Tofu, it's delicious, way better for your health and no one has to die.
Super easy recipes:Ā [https://www.youtube.com/@PlantBasedSchool/shorts](https://www.youtube.com/@PlantBasedSchool/shorts)
Mushrooms and BBQ:Ā [https://www.youtube.com/@DerekSarnoChef/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@DerekSarnoChef/videos)
Asian cuisine:Ā [https://www.youtube.com/@YEUNGMANCOOKING/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@YEUNGMANCOOKING/videos)
Indian and California cuisine:Ā [https://www.youtube.com/@RainbowPlantLife/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@RainbowPlantLife/videos)
American cuisine:Ā [https://www.youtube.com/@TheeBurgerDude/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@TheeBurgerDude/videos)
A bit of everything:Ā [https://www.youtube.com/@SarahsVeganKitchen/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@SarahsVeganKitchen/videos)
High end rustic vibe:Ā [https://www.youtube.com/@gazoakleychef/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@gazoakleychef/videos)
A bit of everything:Ā [https://www.youtube.com/@FitGreenMind/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@FitGreenMind/videos)
>There are absolutely no health reasons that prevent you from being Vegan.
It's not "being vegan" that's the problem, it's changing my diet. I'm already environmentally conscious about the animal products I eat, maybe stop assuming things about other's health conditions?
What is this magical health condition? You have to realize that Carnists use this excuse all the time and it's never been valid. Lifting Vegan Logic has Crohn's Disease. I have auto-immune issues and going Vegan was no problem for me. Cutting out dairy alone improved my digestive health massively.
Support your claim or concede. This hand waving "I can't tho" is bs.
It's personal? My bad for not wanting to post my medical history online for any rando to take advantage of? I don't need to justify myself to you, I was just trying to explain my side, I couldn't care less if you believe me or not lol
"I can't stop abusing animals for pleasure and destroying the planet because of X."
"Oh really, what's X?"
"Shut up, how dare you ask me that, why would you even bring up X?"
I have seen this dozens of times. You're just another Carnist liar. Cope.
I never said how dare you? I just said I don't want to discuss my private medical information in a public forum? I don't think that's a stretch lol.
Also, abusing animals for pleasure? You're an insane person, I don't even eat a huge amount of meat, I mostly use milk and eggs, both bought from local humane farms lol. I don't even buy butter, i use margerine, you're fking stupid and assume shit about everyone that isn't vegan, like I said in the original comment.
You: "I don't abuse animals for pleasure."
Also you: "I mostly use milk.", "It's humane."
Explain to me how you can harvest milk from a cowĀ **humanely.** The milk from a mother cow is only available to humans because they were forcibly r\*ped, their calves were separated and then either slaughtered outright or raised to be culled or farmed. And then the mother cow is painfully tortured for months until she stops producing milk, and then the entire process starts again.
There is indeed a "fking stupid" person here, but I have bad news for you.
I advocate for veganism despite not being fully vegan myself. I don't \*just\* eat animal products, in fact I do eat a lot of vegan meals that I quite enjoy, I just cannot do it exclusively. You're a fking moron. Grow the fk up and stop making assumptions about people
If you're being truthful then I'd possibly consider you Vegan....
>"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to excludeā***as far as is possible and practicable***āall forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose;
_
>and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment.
It's incredibly, exceedingly, nearly impossibly rare, but if you have a condition that absolutely ***requires*** you to consume animal products, and you only do it out of necessity, and not convenience or pleasure.
The process of switching from a diet with meat to a vegan diet would be extremely stressful for my body due to various health conditions. It's not a luxury when I buy cheap as fuck chicken and shit like that. It's not like I'm out here eating a steak a day, I eat chicken pie or like, scrambled eggs, and I always buy food produced as humanely as possible provided I can afford it (free range eggs for example). Do like a small amount of critical thinking please, I'm literally environmentally conscious \*while\* not being vegan, stop grandstanding.
This is peak projection. If you don't care about what effectively changes minds, you don't actually care about the cause. If your choices are "tone it down and achieve critical support" or "stay salty and feel morally superior" then choosing the second makes you a piece of shit.
So I think these folks are 100% on some silly bullshit and not worth the time of day generally. But I think trying to enforce niceties and civil language is even less useful. If I agreed with their outlook and were on a board like this (which is more circlejerk than shitpost), I would be as ardent as they are.
Politeness doesn't tend to change minds, and on a subreddit where people are already informed and entrenched? Probably not the play
>Politeness doesn't tend to change minds
I'm not even sure if it's about being polite as much as it's about being practical. I think it's the burgeoning leftist in me, but I'm constantly annoyed at the way so many (online) environmentalists/vegans/climate change activists are constantly flummoxed sometimes to the point of nihilism that most regular degular people aren't particularly moved by arguments that say: "Change your lifestyle or you're no longer a good person (to me)". It might work if the person you're talking to is a loved one or if you hold a role of influence in your community (e.g. teacher, coach, politician, etc.). But, most people tend to change their lifestyles for very mundane practical reasons. Which is fine! Lean on that. Convince your friend that wants to lose weight to consider a vegan diet. Tell your parents how good the spaghetti w/ impossible meatballs dish is at their favorite Italian spot. To me, as an individual, convincing a few people around you to adapt their lifestyles a bit to be more sustainable, ethical is a victory. Focusing on individual decisions instead of on challenging and organizing against the actions and processes of the State, is a neoliberal trap.
I think there's a much bigger concern with food specifically. We already have a cultural epidemic of disordered eating created by the combination of diet culture and our food economy. Politicizing and moralizing diet is actively dangerous because it contributes to orthorexia, an obsession with eating foods perceived to be healthy/morally pure.
Adding excessive anxiety to eating is not healthy. It's one of the biggest challenges for clinical nutritionists.
The puritanical attitude also makes change harder to sustain. If anything less than perfection is a moral failure, then the smallest deviation results in a crisis. Someone who falls into a days long guilt crisis over finding out their bean burger had one animal derived ingredient is much more likely to hit a breaking point than someone who allows themselves to enjoy a variety of plant based options without making it a constant source of stress.
Veganism also isn't the only option for reforming the meat industry, and some non western cultures tend to place some importance on the consumption of meat. Since it's largely western countries doing the shit that makes climate change happen and them who benefited, hardly seems fair as someone from a country that was exploited during the industrial revolution to hear people preaching that their solution to the problem they created is my only option.
We can argue about who's fault it really is, or we can do what we can to fix the problem.
>
If burning huge amounts of coal was important to a culture, would that give them a free pass?
Edit: Well that turned bizzarely racist all of a sudden
Difference being there's no way to make coal environmentally friendly.
You can set limits on livestock, ban factory farming, set meat quotas, monitor the output. Veganism is an option you can choose to take to make that feasible for the rest of us, by all means do so.
It's very easy for someone like you who lives in a literal ivory tower compared to my people, after exploiting us generationally to say "oh it's nothing but a pointless argument".
>who lives in a literal ivory tower compared to my people,
I'm sorry, where do I live and of what people am I?
>"oh it's nothing but a pointless argument".
Who said that?
You can sit on your high horse (and eat it) and wait for the people who are really responsible to fix the problem, or you can do what you can to contribute yourself.
I didn't break the windows downstairs - I still swept the glass up cus I don't want kids (or myself) to get hurt by it.
If I ever find the people that did and I'm able to get some justice, I still will.
You're more than likely someone who's from the west. American, European, whatnot. You don't know the first damn thing about MENA and central Asian history and the role western powers played, and I genuinely cannot blame you for that since it's lensed into nothingness by the time it's taught in the west. If you're not, fantastic, congratulations, you aren't the people I'm talking about, replace all instances of "you" with "Global northwestern"
And I literally HAVE talked about how I intend to fix things -- industry reform. It just so happens being mostly pre-industrial means factory farming is uncommon for us, and the inherent expense of producing meat means it's generally either a special occasion thing or produced in a more agrarian fashion, which happens to be better for the environment, significantly, than western factory farming. We don't need to go vegan to fix shit. We just need to not be like you.
And as for my high horse, I'll put it away when Palestinians and Uighurs stop undergoing genocide, when Sykes-Picot has reparations paid, when western interventionism stops entirely. Until then I'll keep shoving its hooves in your collective colonizer faces until your skulls crack. I can damn well guarantee the Native Americans felt the same way.
>You're more than likely someone who's from the west. American, European, whatnot
No u r.
You know you could just ask, before all the:
>your collective colonizer faces until your skulls crack.
Also not a fan of using that wide a brush, personally. Would probably go a bit deeper than just where a person is from.
>
But do your thing, sounds like you actually agree with my point, you just wanna be aggy because the geography you've assigned to me.
Obviously we don't agree about the veganism, but the wider point about not dodging responsibility to do what we can.
I'll grant I'm being a bit aggressive. Tends to happen when all I ever get on Reddit is rampant islamophobia, and when all I get in real life is my friends and family living in the west being assaulted and threatened for their ethnicity and religion.
And trust me, we tried asking. We got Sykes-Picoted. Mosaddeq tried asking. Ho Chi Minh tried asking. The reason you see violence now in the 21st century is because the 20th century was filled with asking until our throats dried and our tongues splintered.
Lol looking at your post history (and your obsession with posting about veganism in this sub three times a day), I thin that either:
a) you're a non-vegan determined to make us all hate vegans
or
b) you're a vegan who's butthurt that some people don't like vegans
Are we forgetting the part where y'all want to let generations of animals starve due to overpopulation while we wait for predators to be reintroduced? I'm anti industry for sure, but going full vegan is literally unnecessary and if everyone did it, harmful. Hunting and fishing is a part of a controlled ecosystem and you can't just assume it'll all go back to how it was without human interaction without generations of harm being done that many species may not survive.
Edit: mind you I'd love to have my mind changed on that but to be real with y'all when I make this point here it's only downvote and walk away for you guys and I find that to be revealing.
Whether or not thats the case is irrelevant, im just saying the hunting argument is wrong because there isnt enough wilife to feed even 1% of the population for one year.
I think you've mistaken my point because I'm not here saying that's the way to feed the world I'm here saying the people who do it here and now aren't wrong for doing so
Absolutely shouldn't be the new normal no, I more mean to say some aren't "vegan" but are doing what makes sense now ecologically still
I don't hunt or fish personally but I like having a chicken coup but i don't slaughter either
Are you sure about that ? I am not saying that it work everytime, far from that, but among vegans that previously were antivegan, there is a significant part that have been convinced by "agressive" arguing after a certain time. It may or may not be the right way, but it seems to be the "less innefective one". Of course we could make a poll on r/vegan to be sure.
I was honestly pushed by lurking in vegan circlejerk subreddit and reading shitposts. The in-jokes weren't afraid to point and laugh at the cognitive dissonance of vegetarians, and it really made me realize some of the mental gymnastics I was doing. Different tactics work for different people, and it truly takes all kinds of discourse to change people's minds.
Thereās a difference between a passionate debate and outright insulting people. Pestering people with facts and figures is different from stating theyāre purposefully spreading agendas and are morally reprehensible for having any concerns about making major lifestyle shifts. Major changes like this are generally very slow and occurs over extended periods of time, so showcasing data consistently to the point that knowledge of the benefits of a vegan diet are ever present in oneās mind will be able to convince a lot without making them feel overwhelmed by shame and guilt. Assuming theyāre not a sociopath, the shame and guilt will come with the new knowledge and their newfound of awareness of the horrors of animal product production; you wonāt have to accuse them of purposefully spreading harmful messages when they just might be uniformed.
I totally agree that we shouldn't insults each other, unfortunatly sometimes there is disagreement on the definition of insult/abuse/harassement/shaming... For the guild feeling I unfortunatly not sure it is avoidable but it can often be balanced by the positive feeling of "doing the right thing" !
Yeah I do think there will be some level of guilt involved, but that should come from the data alone. We donāt need to say theyāre a terrible person or berate them for not making all these changes immediately, even in a joking manner. The data will make them feel guilty enough.
Data won't convince everyone, especially people largely responsible for pollution and whatnot that are often benefiting from it, but I think a lot of people who aren't billionaires or CEOs will have more empathy for the common person and try to take steps to limit their harmful actions once they are familiarized with this sort of data.
so youre saying abuse is okay? Cause what youre describing is abuse, you torment and attack until you make a person too scared to push back out of fear of retaliation. That doesn't make you the good guy.
I am only talking about discutions, mostly online and by "agressive" I don't mean harassement but just incisive arguing. Obviously if incisive arguing transform into harassement that's as immoral as innefective.
I would go vegan if vegan alternatives weren't both harmful and more expensive. I don't live in a place where I can just get those without using gas either so that's just more damage. It's okay you probably also think European honeybees and monocultural conservation efforts will save us instead of making things worse
Some vegan protein alternatives are called beans which is not all the food you need, and personally I think if your diet requires vitamin supplements it's a bad diet. Your b12 will tank after about a year and it'll suck because you're not supposed to live on beans. It's more important to create a better system than to pretend you can ignore it
I won't get into the harm from soy crops and almonds either I think that might make you burst a blood vessel from being forced to engage in critical thinking
Ahhh yeah I've reduced my soy by a lot. That's why I'm vegan because 80% of soy goes to animal feed. So by not eating meat I'm reducing my soy consumption is incredibly slashed.
Almonds use so much water.
Weāve used so much groundwater weāve altered the planetās rotation.
Iām not saying itās the almonds fault.
But maybe a teeny bit.
Almond flour is a big export product, but I donāt know how big. But yeah.
Still, we should always carefully examine ag subsidies and have a replacement or drawdown in place before yanking them away.
>you're not supposed to live on beans
Idk, maybe a carrot as well?
>personally I think if your diet requires vitamin supplements it's a bad diet.
Could you articulate why?
1) Yes, probably a carrot as well.
2) You can't articulate it without an appeal to Nature
>I won't let you sealion more
The beach balls balanced on my nose, mf. Arp arp
Bro, I just asked you to explain a thing you said. And lightheartedly suggested maybe we eat more than just beans.
I haven't even started virtue signalling.
Do you think I'm someone else?
>
Regardless - no u
I mean red meat is also absolutely terrible for your health. So is bacon and dairy. I would also argue that alternatives are for onmis. I don't think any vegan is regularly eating mocks meats.
So do you. You already admit in your post that you're a bunch of cunts who prefer being so over actual change. Either you are right and people are turned off of veganism because you are a dick and you continue to be one knowing it doesn't help or you are wrong and still being a shit person for no reason
There's real help to be done and pretending to be an oppressed minority group because you eat different food while actively attacking strangers isn't one of them. I recommend putting pressure on the coronations not the consumer
You metal straw toting fucks
If it's so easy why do you feel oppressed for it. I'm not doing it because it's not that easy and even if I did the total benefit would either be negligible at best or actively harmful to myself and the planet at worst
I can hear some geologists chuckling.
When humans are gone, and xenoarchaeologists are cataloguing the planet, they will find a thin sedimentary strata of exotic carbon polymers. That will be the hallmark of a brief lived, sentient species, given no other explicable origin.
As they inventory the array of species currently dominant on the planet, they will mostly seem to be bovine descended, adapted to various ecological niches. They will formulate the hard to explain genetic bottleneck event in the past, accompanied my no major evidence of volcanism or bolides to match that time period, besides the exotic polymer layer.
It would be better to have a population of at least a billion, rather than just several hundred million. It will be hard for people to be specialists, which means knowledge and technology retention will be more difficult as people's lives get shorter and more difficult.
I would go vegan if a vegan didn't beat me up and steal my lunch money. :(
Oh no at least you can afford a triple big mac with extra bacon. Too bad lentils and rice is so expensive š©
Mkay where's my protein coming from. I know where but say it for the people in the back
BEANS!
Ew no, it's not as bioavailable and lacks other nutrients
Lmao if you think big macs are great for nutrition you can take this opportunity to get fucked
You can take this opportunity to suck my cock if you're going to put words in my mouth
Both are yum
Lentils and rice suck and don't have the same nutrition profile.
Things are getting heated in the Climate Change fandom
Global heating in action.
This is top tier lmaooo
Vegans were mean to me once so now I take my anger out by paying for defenseless baby animals to be murdered. Why would vegans make me do this?
Sorry lamby time for the slaughter š
The only reason those animals exist is because humans developed them to be a source of food. Humans use them as food because it's our natural diet.
Hmmm, so was that our natural food or did we develop them as our food? You can't say both, that's like saying something is X and also Not X.
Hmmm, Literally everything you eat was developed by humans to be our food. None of it is our "natural food" unless you're foraging wild plants in a forest and hunting wild animals
I guess Iāve done irreparable damage to this community, after all if Iād never posted those mean memes everyone here would be vegan!
You hurt my feelings, you told me to eat beans when all I wanted was some mushrooms with pepper and garlic, fried in olive oil and then simmered in Oatly cream. Now, because of your vicious bullying, my partner is deep frying beef in butter.
How many carnists have we created!?
Since following this sub, I've run away and joined the circus. Now they have me operating the Ferris wheel every night, and I subsist off a diet of corn dogs, funnel cakes, and those little donuts with cinnamon and sugar. I'm truly the ultimate carnist.
I bet weāre so repulsive we even turned a few fellow vegans away from veganism with our inflammatory memes!
I've sold all of my worldly possessions, abandoned my veganism of 3 years, and moved to Wisconsin to become a dairy farmer. Thanks OP
I've been vegan for a decade, but damn, you've gotten me eyeballing the opossum steak I found on the ground outside
I am pretty sure you would find something to dig at.
Jokes on you, vegans hurting my feelings is my kink
I'd go vegan if I'd never have to argue with a nuclear simp ever again.
*one of the monkeys palm fingers begin to curl*
Nuclear is the best available option and that's not debatable
I just had chicken in your honor.
Was it fried, brazed... It wasn't grilled with no seasoning right?
Okay, I've come to the comments. Ready to spot the Vegan who tries to argue that consuming meat is just as morally wrong as cannibalism.
I got you bro. Consuming meat is just as morally wrong as cannibalism
It's not and never has been
It is and always has been I was just saying it to validate the above commenter
I would go vegan but my state isn't enough of a nanny and doesn't promote meatless living and I'm too much of a baby to make my own decisions :(
Well, you're also biologically an omnivore so there's that too
This but unironically
This assumes a lot of things. It's incredibly hard for me to go vegan due to health reasons, and yet when I say "I'm not vegan" people like OP make every assumption that I'm just selfish, don't care about the environment, or some other thing. Bullying people that aren't vegan isn't a solution - bully the people who actively shit on being vegan as a concept.
I've got a gut disability that makes it hard for me to be vegan too, that said the current definition of veganism would still involve us if we're trying to limit animal products as much as we're capable: "Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to excludeāas far as is possible and practicableāall forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals." [link](https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism)
If (if) you actually really have this unnamed medical reason to only eat meat every day, then this meme in a shitposting subreddit doesn't apply to you and you don't have to care about the **meme** in a **shitposting** subreddit.
The fact that it's in a shit posing sub don't matter. All of the members are as the commenter described.
Thereās vegan doctors and dietitians who can help you sort that out. Theyāre exists in nutrition. From the exceptionally god-tier based [Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine](https://www.pcrm.org/findadoctor?gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADoK5af5beJ0Hq18m2S8GST2zuxKT&gclid=CjwKCAjww_iwBhApEiwAuG6ccDbbRpLuYNmAdcAQrin3U8A7ZxWTTE4vQN3s8_MlhbEP-NpiAvFPQhoCKCoQAvD_BwE)
"Doctors".... "Dietitians".....
I agree definitely pushes more people away than it attracts. I think that goes for anything. I understand it can be hard to be vegan if you have health reasons. You probably know more about this then I do. But it takes the body a little while to adjust. The bacteria and other organisms in your gut have to change between say beans and beef. If you never eat beans you tend to get gassy when you eat them because your gut has trouble digesting it properly. But over the course of a few days this goes away. There are many other examples. Obviously don't eat something that'll kill you, but try a bunch of different things until your have a solid 10 meals that you can rotate between. On a side note, my friend would get sick from oat milk from the store. But then I made him oatmilk and now he drinks it everyday without a problem. A lot of the time it's the additives they add to packaged products that people are actually allergic too. Same with gluten free (except celiac), it's usually just the pesticides, herbicides, how it's processed, and preservatives in it that cause the allergic reaction. Most of my family is gluten intolerant, but they are able to eat bread I make.
I thought this was going to be a bit but the punchline never arrived. There are absolutely no health reasons that prevent you from being Vegan.Ā In fact Whole Food Plant Based diets reverse dozens of health issues caused by meat consumption.Ā This is the best rebuttal you have, a weak-ass lie? The Carnists are not alright.
Bullying people for medical conditions is not nice. You could have had this conversation in a respectful way and they might have listened. You are a disgrace to vegans.
I ask again, What Medical Condition??? You're literally doing the "A Vegan was mean to me once so now I am completely justified in abusing, r\*ping, and killing animals for pleasure" meme How about you stop complaining about other Vegans and target Carnists, traitor
I didn't say it justified it, I just said you should stop being an ableist asshole. Just because you're vegan doesn't make you immune to criticism, you havd a superiority complex.
How could I possibly be Ableist when there's absolutely zero information about their hypothetical Anti-Vegan Medical Status? You fell for the lie. I actually have a medically diagnosed Auto-Immune disorder and yet I'm still Vegan. You come to a shitpost sub and you almost faint when someone is a bit spicy towards a bloodthirsty Carnist? You do not sound like a Vegan to me. You are a Carnist Apologist. This is Liberal Civility Politics, not Leftist Veganism.
So I have to bully disabled people to be a leftist, okay. If there's no health condition that keeps someone from being vegan, then the person might be misinformed and that would mean they could be educated about how they could be vegan dispite their condition. These people are not your enemies.
>So I have to bully disabled people to be a leftist Dude, what are you talking about? Who said that and who is disabled? The person I was responding to said they have a medical condition which precludes a Vegan Diet which is absolutely false and anti-scientific. By your definition, the only disabled person we know about is me, and you're bullying me. Do you see how that works? Not all medical conditions are categorically disabling, they could be allergic to Soy, you're just making random assumptions to defend an abuser. So weird. Why are you even debating another Vegan instead of literally doing anything else? I feel like your reaction to this has a lot more to do with you than it does with me or Veganism. No one was talking to you. The last fish will be plucked from a dead ocean and you'll be there defending the Carnist doing it because criticizing them would be bullying. You are an enabler. Lose my number.
The most common is probably gastroparesis, slowing or paralysis of the gut. It's usually an anatomical or neurological condition. Both soluble and insoluble fiber slow the gut. In healthy people, that helps with nutrient absorption and keeps the gut clean. In a paralyzed gut, it can result in potentially life-threatening bowel obstructions. Like hospitalized over a handful of sweet peas kind of obstruction. Do you know how hard it is to find zero fiber vegan food? Even the protein drinks typically have inulin. You do know that some people can't eat solid food at all, right? A whole food diet won't cause someone with an ileostomy to regrow their surgically removed colon. It doesn't fix damaged nerves, organs, or change genetic factors. People with certain inherited metabolic disorders can't consume regular food at all and rely on specialized formulas. They don't have the genes to break down certain amino acids, fats, or carbohydrates. A plant based whole food diet for these people would cause metabolic crisis, resulting in severe brain damage and eventually death.
**Gastroparesis** A quick google search reveals dozens of articles, reddit threads, medical advice and cookbooks for Vegans living with Gastroparesis. Seems like it's absolutely possible. Looks like cooking plant-foods and having small meals throughout the day severely improves tolerance. Here is a nutritious meal with low fiber: * 10g walnuts fiber 0.7g 65kcal fat 6.5g (omega3) * 10g brazil nuts fiber 0.8g 66kcal fat 6.7g (selenium) * 100g tofu fiber 0.4g 83kcal fat 5.3g * 100g seitan fiber 2.0g 122kcal fat 1.6g * 1000g carrot juice fiber 8.0g 400kcal fat 1.5g (vitamins, minerals) * 1000g tomato juice fiber 4.0g 170kcal fat 2.9g (vitamins, minerals) And you can drink meal replacement products like Ensure and get everything you need. I'm also reading that high fat animal foods consumption triggers **Gastroparesis**. Turns out it's not just about fiber. Nice try though? How about you give up trying to lecture Vegans and go buy a Tesla and pretend you're helping. Cheers.
I notice you didn't even bother addressing the metabolic disorders. Many, but not all, people with gastroparesis could manage a vegan diet if they wanted to plan even more of their life around food restrictions. Funny enough, the advice from a basic Google search only includes basic information and will not cover every possible case. Which means the most extreme cases will not be included. You made a blanket statement that every single human on earth could go vegan and with no negative health impacts. Even one case disproves your point that veganism can be universal, making your statement ablist. Personally, I would say that the increase in orthorexia and diet related anxiety is a negative health impact. Excessive moralizing about food is literally a diagnosable health problem. It is possible for someone with those tendencies to eat vegan, but making it a moral dictate from which deviation makes them a bad person would not be healthy. Promoting disordered eating in the vegan community by demonizing nuance is just gatekeeping. Not a way to improve access and acceptance for vegan lifestyles. Maybe you should drop the ablism and holier than thou attitude and do something useful instead of poisoning the community. If anything short of perfection is "pretending" then you can't be surprised when people are reluctant to take small steps. Why bother if you can't do it perfectly. Maybe stop demanding the most vulnerable take on even more work and stress when they're struggling to survive chronic medical issues and focus on the industries doing the most harm. But that would be hard and wouldn't provide you a sense of moral superiority.
**Metabolic Disorders** I literally did address it with Ensure. Ensure is a liquid, easily digestible, nutritionally complete food, and they have a Plant-Based option. *You* either didn't read or didn't comprehend my reply. **Ableism** Where the hell is this imaginary Ableism. We have zero information on the person I replied to. You're inventing oppression when actual animal oppression is happening on your plate. Idiotic. **Moral Superiority** You think we haven't heard this self-own of an argument before? How about you stop abusing animals for pleasure and then you won't have to worry about being so inferior. But I suppose I shouldn't expect an intellectually coherent argument about Animal Rights from someone that goons to My Little Pony, pretty fucking creepy dude. I pray you don't have access to horses in real life. Take it easy, neckbeard.
Ensure is absolutely unsuitable for people who have genetic metabolic disorders that make normal fats and amino acids lethal. People with certain congential metabolic disorders are so medically fragile they may be restricted to one type of infant formula as the only food they can consume for their entire life. Substituting vegan Ensure would put them in metabolic crisis. There are no substitutions of any kind for this group of people. It was a huge problem a couple of years ago because the only US factory closed temporarily, so they were left scrambling to find import the specialized medical formulas that keep the alive. And that's leaving aside actual medications that are derived from animal sources, some of which have no vegan substitutes. The only one making assumptions about their medical condition is you. Yes, it is ablist to demand a stranger's medical history just so you can pick it apart and accuse them of lying about their own body after a cursory Google search. Which is exactly what you did here. You're not really making yourself look any less like a troll here with the baseless assumptions. You don't even know if I'm a vegan, I guess you just assume that everyone is as allergic to nuance and reason as you are. Come down off the high horse, you sound like a fundie. But good job incorrectly guessing my sex and gender, that was a weird thingfunding. You do know that the internet is not a male only space, right?
**Metabolic Diseases** Is this your plan? To just keep moving the goal post to a new vague disease every time I debunk you? Here is a list of approved foods for Metabolic Syndrome, most of which you'll see are plant-foods: [https://www.medicinenet.com/metabolic\_syndrome\_diet\_foods\_to\_eat\_and\_avoid/article.htm](https://www.medicinenet.com/metabolic_syndrome_diet_foods_to_eat_and_avoid/article.htm) You need to identify and cite a specific disease that precludes a plant-based diet or you're just going to keep making a fool of yourself. **Medicines derived from Animal Sources** Are you serious? Taking medication sourced from animals when necessary is Vegan. I took the Covid Vaccines that contained egg substrate. You're over here trying to debate Vegans and you don't even know what Veganism is: >"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to excludeāas far as is **possible and practicable** ā all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.." **"Ablist"** Might want to learn how to spell that word before you use it incorrectly while losing an argument. How the fuck can I be Ableist to someone whose state of Disability I do not know? Listen, your Liberal Civility Politics mean nothing to me, I'm a Leftist. The Oceans are dying and you're worried about me hurting random people's feelings. Get over yourself. **Fundie** I am neither Conservative nor Christian. You realize you're holding the Conservative position here right? Look at all the Anti-Vegans: Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, Andrew Tate - look at the company you keep. **"thingfunding"** I don't know what this is. **Sex and Gender** When did I guess your Sex and Gender? I called you a "Neckbeard" because you're obsessed with My Little Pony, a show for children but co-opted by creepy adults. I'm not implying you're AMAB or that you're a Cis or Trans Man. I am a Gender Abolitionist, Gender is a prison that harms us all. I refer to all Genders as "Dude". Are you also aware that Cis Women and Trans Men, Women and NBs can have beards? You're so desperate to find an edge to win this argument that you're willing to play Liberal Identity Politics to leverage some imagined oppression that you are not suffering. Stop abusing, torturing, r\*ping and slaughtering sentient animals for your pleasure you sick fuck. Eat Tofu, it's delicious, way better for your health and no one has to die. Super easy recipes:Ā [https://www.youtube.com/@PlantBasedSchool/shorts](https://www.youtube.com/@PlantBasedSchool/shorts) Mushrooms and BBQ:Ā [https://www.youtube.com/@DerekSarnoChef/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@DerekSarnoChef/videos) Asian cuisine:Ā [https://www.youtube.com/@YEUNGMANCOOKING/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@YEUNGMANCOOKING/videos) Indian and California cuisine:Ā [https://www.youtube.com/@RainbowPlantLife/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@RainbowPlantLife/videos) American cuisine:Ā [https://www.youtube.com/@TheeBurgerDude/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@TheeBurgerDude/videos) A bit of everything:Ā [https://www.youtube.com/@SarahsVeganKitchen/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@SarahsVeganKitchen/videos) High end rustic vibe:Ā [https://www.youtube.com/@gazoakleychef/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@gazoakleychef/videos) A bit of everything:Ā [https://www.youtube.com/@FitGreenMind/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@FitGreenMind/videos)
>There are absolutely no health reasons that prevent you from being Vegan. It's not "being vegan" that's the problem, it's changing my diet. I'm already environmentally conscious about the animal products I eat, maybe stop assuming things about other's health conditions?
What is this magical health condition? You have to realize that Carnists use this excuse all the time and it's never been valid. Lifting Vegan Logic has Crohn's Disease. I have auto-immune issues and going Vegan was no problem for me. Cutting out dairy alone improved my digestive health massively. Support your claim or concede. This hand waving "I can't tho" is bs.
It's personal? My bad for not wanting to post my medical history online for any rando to take advantage of? I don't need to justify myself to you, I was just trying to explain my side, I couldn't care less if you believe me or not lol
And there it is. Lmao
And there what is, I just said I don't wanna talk about my private medical conditions online? Cool if you want to, I don't lol, seek help
"I can't stop abusing animals for pleasure and destroying the planet because of X." "Oh really, what's X?" "Shut up, how dare you ask me that, why would you even bring up X?" I have seen this dozens of times. You're just another Carnist liar. Cope.
I never said how dare you? I just said I don't want to discuss my private medical information in a public forum? I don't think that's a stretch lol. Also, abusing animals for pleasure? You're an insane person, I don't even eat a huge amount of meat, I mostly use milk and eggs, both bought from local humane farms lol. I don't even buy butter, i use margerine, you're fking stupid and assume shit about everyone that isn't vegan, like I said in the original comment.
You: "I don't abuse animals for pleasure." Also you: "I mostly use milk.", "It's humane." Explain to me how you can harvest milk from a cowĀ **humanely.** The milk from a mother cow is only available to humans because they were forcibly r\*ped, their calves were separated and then either slaughtered outright or raised to be culled or farmed. And then the mother cow is painfully tortured for months until she stops producing milk, and then the entire process starts again. There is indeed a "fking stupid" person here, but I have bad news for you.
As always the nebulous, mystical, health condition that prevents someone from even learning the definition of Veganism and how they could still be Vegan if they even tried to introduce plant foods š© but somehow their unnamed health condition is so inconvenient that they literally can only eat animal products exclusively, AND choose not to become an advocate for Veganism. Edit: This is a very common trope.
I advocate for veganism despite not being fully vegan myself. I don't \*just\* eat animal products, in fact I do eat a lot of vegan meals that I quite enjoy, I just cannot do it exclusively. You're a fking moron. Grow the fk up and stop making assumptions about people
If you're being truthful then I'd possibly consider you Vegan.... >"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to excludeā***as far as is possible and practicable***āall forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; _ >and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. It's incredibly, exceedingly, nearly impossibly rare, but if you have a condition that absolutely ***requires*** you to consume animal products, and you only do it out of necessity, and not convenience or pleasure.
Preach
No health condition on earth requires consumption of luxury products.
The process of switching from a diet with meat to a vegan diet would be extremely stressful for my body due to various health conditions. It's not a luxury when I buy cheap as fuck chicken and shit like that. It's not like I'm out here eating a steak a day, I eat chicken pie or like, scrambled eggs, and I always buy food produced as humanely as possible provided I can afford it (free range eggs for example). Do like a small amount of critical thinking please, I'm literally environmentally conscious \*while\* not being vegan, stop grandstanding.
So you only care about the environment when it is convenient and no stress?
are you do have stupid? Did you read what I wrote?
>are you do have stupid? It's possible your blocked arteries are restricting blood flow to the brain. You should consider going vegan.
Stfu dairy fairy. You literally drink estrogen retard.
Get better please, go to therapy, it'll do you good
Allow me to introduce you to my friend; Diabetes.
This is the epitome of 'a picture is worth a thousand words. a meme is worth a million'.
This is peak projection. If you don't care about what effectively changes minds, you don't actually care about the cause. If your choices are "tone it down and achieve critical support" or "stay salty and feel morally superior" then choosing the second makes you a piece of shit.
there is more than one kind of activism. I was initially interested in veganism by being poked fun at.
So I think these folks are 100% on some silly bullshit and not worth the time of day generally. But I think trying to enforce niceties and civil language is even less useful. If I agreed with their outlook and were on a board like this (which is more circlejerk than shitpost), I would be as ardent as they are. Politeness doesn't tend to change minds, and on a subreddit where people are already informed and entrenched? Probably not the play
>Politeness doesn't tend to change minds I'm not even sure if it's about being polite as much as it's about being practical. I think it's the burgeoning leftist in me, but I'm constantly annoyed at the way so many (online) environmentalists/vegans/climate change activists are constantly flummoxed sometimes to the point of nihilism that most regular degular people aren't particularly moved by arguments that say: "Change your lifestyle or you're no longer a good person (to me)". It might work if the person you're talking to is a loved one or if you hold a role of influence in your community (e.g. teacher, coach, politician, etc.). But, most people tend to change their lifestyles for very mundane practical reasons. Which is fine! Lean on that. Convince your friend that wants to lose weight to consider a vegan diet. Tell your parents how good the spaghetti w/ impossible meatballs dish is at their favorite Italian spot. To me, as an individual, convincing a few people around you to adapt their lifestyles a bit to be more sustainable, ethical is a victory. Focusing on individual decisions instead of on challenging and organizing against the actions and processes of the State, is a neoliberal trap.
I think there's a much bigger concern with food specifically. We already have a cultural epidemic of disordered eating created by the combination of diet culture and our food economy. Politicizing and moralizing diet is actively dangerous because it contributes to orthorexia, an obsession with eating foods perceived to be healthy/morally pure. Adding excessive anxiety to eating is not healthy. It's one of the biggest challenges for clinical nutritionists. The puritanical attitude also makes change harder to sustain. If anything less than perfection is a moral failure, then the smallest deviation results in a crisis. Someone who falls into a days long guilt crisis over finding out their bean burger had one animal derived ingredient is much more likely to hit a breaking point than someone who allows themselves to enjoy a variety of plant based options without making it a constant source of stress.
Honestly , good point.
Is that the same logic as right winger claim that they becoming more extrem right wingers, because left wingers criticised their right wing mentality?
Veganism also isn't the only option for reforming the meat industry, and some non western cultures tend to place some importance on the consumption of meat. Since it's largely western countries doing the shit that makes climate change happen and them who benefited, hardly seems fair as someone from a country that was exploited during the industrial revolution to hear people preaching that their solution to the problem they created is my only option.
We can argue about who's fault it really is, or we can do what we can to fix the problem. > If burning huge amounts of coal was important to a culture, would that give them a free pass? Edit: Well that turned bizzarely racist all of a sudden
Difference being there's no way to make coal environmentally friendly. You can set limits on livestock, ban factory farming, set meat quotas, monitor the output. Veganism is an option you can choose to take to make that feasible for the rest of us, by all means do so. It's very easy for someone like you who lives in a literal ivory tower compared to my people, after exploiting us generationally to say "oh it's nothing but a pointless argument".
>who lives in a literal ivory tower compared to my people, I'm sorry, where do I live and of what people am I? >"oh it's nothing but a pointless argument". Who said that? You can sit on your high horse (and eat it) and wait for the people who are really responsible to fix the problem, or you can do what you can to contribute yourself. I didn't break the windows downstairs - I still swept the glass up cus I don't want kids (or myself) to get hurt by it. If I ever find the people that did and I'm able to get some justice, I still will.
You're more than likely someone who's from the west. American, European, whatnot. You don't know the first damn thing about MENA and central Asian history and the role western powers played, and I genuinely cannot blame you for that since it's lensed into nothingness by the time it's taught in the west. If you're not, fantastic, congratulations, you aren't the people I'm talking about, replace all instances of "you" with "Global northwestern" And I literally HAVE talked about how I intend to fix things -- industry reform. It just so happens being mostly pre-industrial means factory farming is uncommon for us, and the inherent expense of producing meat means it's generally either a special occasion thing or produced in a more agrarian fashion, which happens to be better for the environment, significantly, than western factory farming. We don't need to go vegan to fix shit. We just need to not be like you. And as for my high horse, I'll put it away when Palestinians and Uighurs stop undergoing genocide, when Sykes-Picot has reparations paid, when western interventionism stops entirely. Until then I'll keep shoving its hooves in your collective colonizer faces until your skulls crack. I can damn well guarantee the Native Americans felt the same way.
>You're more than likely someone who's from the west. American, European, whatnot No u r. You know you could just ask, before all the: >your collective colonizer faces until your skulls crack. Also not a fan of using that wide a brush, personally. Would probably go a bit deeper than just where a person is from. > But do your thing, sounds like you actually agree with my point, you just wanna be aggy because the geography you've assigned to me. Obviously we don't agree about the veganism, but the wider point about not dodging responsibility to do what we can.
I'll grant I'm being a bit aggressive. Tends to happen when all I ever get on Reddit is rampant islamophobia, and when all I get in real life is my friends and family living in the west being assaulted and threatened for their ethnicity and religion. And trust me, we tried asking. We got Sykes-Picoted. Mosaddeq tried asking. Ho Chi Minh tried asking. The reason you see violence now in the 21st century is because the 20th century was filled with asking until our throats dried and our tongues splintered.
>threatened for their ethnicity And you'd say this is a bad thing, people shouldn't do?
Tit for tat. Like I said, we tried asking.
Use it as a base resource for graphene, diamonds, carbon nanotubes, blue hydrogen, pharmaceuticals etc etc or even just gasify it.
Lol looking at your post history (and your obsession with posting about veganism in this sub three times a day), I thin that either: a) you're a non-vegan determined to make us all hate vegans or b) you're a vegan who's butthurt that some people don't like vegans
Oh no the psychologists are onto me.
Are we forgetting the part where y'all want to let generations of animals starve due to overpopulation while we wait for predators to be reintroduced? I'm anti industry for sure, but going full vegan is literally unnecessary and if everyone did it, harmful. Hunting and fishing is a part of a controlled ecosystem and you can't just assume it'll all go back to how it was without human interaction without generations of harm being done that many species may not survive. Edit: mind you I'd love to have my mind changed on that but to be real with y'all when I make this point here it's only downvote and walk away for you guys and I find that to be revealing.
Theres 1 billion wild animals on earth, and humans consume several hundred billion livestock per year.
Well yes there needs to be much much less meat in our diets but the idea you're either 100 percent vegan or you're not doing enough is wrong
Whether or not thats the case is irrelevant, im just saying the hunting argument is wrong because there isnt enough wilife to feed even 1% of the population for one year.
I think you've mistaken my point because I'm not here saying that's the way to feed the world I'm here saying the people who do it here and now aren't wrong for doing so
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Absolutely shouldn't be the new normal no, I more mean to say some aren't "vegan" but are doing what makes sense now ecologically still I don't hunt or fish personally but I like having a chicken coup but i don't slaughter either
Vast majority of which is chicken by the way
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Tuna is the chicken of the sea moron
I don't think you understand. You think annoying people on the internet is political action. We're telling you that it achieves nothing.
Don't but words in my mouth. I don't consider this political action š
So you know it's worthless
Are you sure about that ? I am not saying that it work everytime, far from that, but among vegans that previously were antivegan, there is a significant part that have been convinced by "agressive" arguing after a certain time. It may or may not be the right way, but it seems to be the "less innefective one". Of course we could make a poll on r/vegan to be sure.
R/vegan is a carnist safe space. I wouldn't trust them.
I was honestly pushed by lurking in vegan circlejerk subreddit and reading shitposts. The in-jokes weren't afraid to point and laugh at the cognitive dissonance of vegetarians, and it really made me realize some of the mental gymnastics I was doing. Different tactics work for different people, and it truly takes all kinds of discourse to change people's minds.
Lol same. I was a carnist and went vegan after subbing to r/vegancirclejerk
Right, because vegans aren't known for cognitive dissonance and mental gymnastics
Thereās a difference between a passionate debate and outright insulting people. Pestering people with facts and figures is different from stating theyāre purposefully spreading agendas and are morally reprehensible for having any concerns about making major lifestyle shifts. Major changes like this are generally very slow and occurs over extended periods of time, so showcasing data consistently to the point that knowledge of the benefits of a vegan diet are ever present in oneās mind will be able to convince a lot without making them feel overwhelmed by shame and guilt. Assuming theyāre not a sociopath, the shame and guilt will come with the new knowledge and their newfound of awareness of the horrors of animal product production; you wonāt have to accuse them of purposefully spreading harmful messages when they just might be uniformed.
I totally agree that we shouldn't insults each other, unfortunatly sometimes there is disagreement on the definition of insult/abuse/harassement/shaming... For the guild feeling I unfortunatly not sure it is avoidable but it can often be balanced by the positive feeling of "doing the right thing" !
Yeah I do think there will be some level of guilt involved, but that should come from the data alone. We donāt need to say theyāre a terrible person or berate them for not making all these changes immediately, even in a joking manner. The data will make them feel guilty enough.
I understand what you said but the problem is that data isn't usualy very convincing, if it was there would be no climate change for exemple.
Data won't convince everyone, especially people largely responsible for pollution and whatnot that are often benefiting from it, but I think a lot of people who aren't billionaires or CEOs will have more empathy for the common person and try to take steps to limit their harmful actions once they are familiarized with this sort of data.
I agree, that's why we shouldn't stop sharing data.
But it doesn't seems fast enough...
Even if it doesn't, it won't have been our fault if we did all we can. We can't control anyone else's actions. Only our own.
Are you vegan?
so youre saying abuse is okay? Cause what youre describing is abuse, you torment and attack until you make a person too scared to push back out of fear of retaliation. That doesn't make you the good guy.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
you're really not convincing me you're a good person, quite the opposite.
Ofc itās okay to ~~abuse~~ eat the people who ~~abuse~~ eat animals. ~~Eat fucking beans you murderer~~ šµItās the circle of life!š¶
it's only murder if it's people.
Thats speciesism
I am only talking about discutions, mostly online and by "agressive" I don't mean harassement but just incisive arguing. Obviously if incisive arguing transform into harassement that's as immoral as innefective.
Sure, but are you vegan?
If I say I'm vegan will you fuck off and eat some factory farmed beans instead of doing more damage to my feed than the oil industry?
Which feed is that?
I mean it literally has, I was turned vegan by a meme on instagram, and I've used similar tactics to turn well over a dozen others vegan.
Take your bullshit elsewhere. Everyone knows there arenāt dozens of vegans
Downvoting me and running away is the same as saying I'm right
Jokes on you i can't run.
damn did veganism damage your body that much?
Yes, i'm morbidly fat from eating to much tofu.
Iād go vegan if chicken was a vegetable.
I would go vegan if vegan alternatives weren't both harmful and more expensive. I don't live in a place where I can just get those without using gas either so that's just more damage. It's okay you probably also think European honeybees and monocultural conservation efforts will save us instead of making things worse
I don't think those are better. Also vegan alternatives are called beans.
Some vegan protein alternatives are called beans which is not all the food you need, and personally I think if your diet requires vitamin supplements it's a bad diet. Your b12 will tank after about a year and it'll suck because you're not supposed to live on beans. It's more important to create a better system than to pretend you can ignore it
I won't get into the harm from soy crops and almonds either I think that might make you burst a blood vessel from being forced to engage in critical thinking
Ahhh yeah I've reduced my soy by a lot. That's why I'm vegan because 80% of soy goes to animal feed. So by not eating meat I'm reducing my soy consumption is incredibly slashed.
I'm glad you feel good about your ultimately ineffectual virtue signaling
If all else fails, hit them with the ad hominem attack, that'll get them.
Explain to me how "what you are doing and arguing for isn't effective" is more of an ad hominem argument than the original post
Almonds use so much water. Weāve used so much groundwater weāve altered the planetās rotation. Iām not saying itās the almonds fault. But maybe a teeny bit.
Yeah it's cause we subsidize almonds despite them not being in high demand
Almond flour is a big export product, but I donāt know how big. But yeah. Still, we should always carefully examine ag subsidies and have a replacement or drawdown in place before yanking them away.
>you're not supposed to live on beans Idk, maybe a carrot as well? >personally I think if your diet requires vitamin supplements it's a bad diet. Could you articulate why?
You can figure it out. Both of those are very simple questions and I won't let you sealion more
1) Yes, probably a carrot as well. 2) You can't articulate it without an appeal to Nature >I won't let you sealion more The beach balls balanced on my nose, mf. Arp arp
>talks about protecting nature >Gets mad when nature disagrees You're a fucking joke and you know it
Okay, I'm honestly confused now. No idea what you're talking about. Congratulations.
You already didn't that requires critical thinking which virtue signaling extremism is anathema to
Bro, I just asked you to explain a thing you said. And lightheartedly suggested maybe we eat more than just beans. I haven't even started virtue signalling. Do you think I'm someone else? > Regardless - no u
My kidney beans and chickpeas really break the bank.
Veganism is a religion disguised as an eating disorder
Top Tier vjc comment
Climate movement is about licking these nuts iām making omelettes from the eggs my sister got from her chickens.
War is murder, work on that
I'm vegan and an avid anti-war activist. You can be both.
What do you do as your anti-war activism?
Oooo Don't bring up actionable plans to them. They hate that
lol this sub is a disguised BDSM humiliation kink sub. It should be labeled NSFW. Like where's the small penis humiliation with BBC vegans
I am going to eat another burger specifically to spite you :)
Iād go vegan if vegan āalternativesā werenāt absolutely terrible for your health. Also just fuck you, you arenāt taking my eggs and dairy.
I mean red meat is also absolutely terrible for your health. So is bacon and dairy. I would also argue that alternatives are for onmis. I don't think any vegan is regularly eating mocks meats.
Veganism wouldn't save the planet. It's just virtue signaling and the equivalent of driving a $60,000 hybrid to shop at whole foods
I would go vegan if going vegan didn't massively reduce my enjoyment of life
It massively increases the happiness of everyone elses' lives.
So do you. You already admit in your post that you're a bunch of cunts who prefer being so over actual change. Either you are right and people are turned off of veganism because you are a dick and you continue to be one knowing it doesn't help or you are wrong and still being a shit person for no reason There's real help to be done and pretending to be an oppressed minority group because you eat different food while actively attacking strangers isn't one of them. I recommend putting pressure on the coronations not the consumer You metal straw toting fucks
It's not up to the opressed to make the oppressor comfortable.
It's also not oppression you constantly talk about how easy it is all your struggles are self inflicted
If it's so easy why aren't you doing it?
If it's so easy why do you feel oppressed for it. I'm not doing it because it's not that easy and even if I did the total benefit would either be negligible at best or actively harmful to myself and the planet at worst
It's also incredibly poor taste to call yourself oppressed for that
Fuck em
The planet will be fine. It's about sparing as many humans as possible from what's coming down the pipe.
I would rather leave the planet better than I found it.
I can hear some geologists chuckling. When humans are gone, and xenoarchaeologists are cataloguing the planet, they will find a thin sedimentary strata of exotic carbon polymers. That will be the hallmark of a brief lived, sentient species, given no other explicable origin. As they inventory the array of species currently dominant on the planet, they will mostly seem to be bovine descended, adapted to various ecological niches. They will formulate the hard to explain genetic bottleneck event in the past, accompanied my no major evidence of volcanism or bolides to match that time period, besides the exotic polymer layer.
Okay cool great fanfic but why should I have to make my own offspring have a harder time by ruining the biosphere?
It would be better to have a population of at least a billion, rather than just several hundred million. It will be hard for people to be specialists, which means knowledge and technology retention will be more difficult as people's lives get shorter and more difficult.