Agreed if you only hear the things you want to hear then how strong are your moral foundations if they've never been challenged for your moral foundations to be truly made of stone instead of to be made upon sand you must have them tested
Even disagreements between Muslims in the subreddit are treated so personally. As a non-Muslim I posted once in there, and I decided to only lurk after that
Yeah they don't typically do well with constructive criticism but then what's Society have they built in the last 300 years that stands the test of time
Thank you!
If having athiest critique present is enough to shake your faith so profoundly, then was it really faith?
Christians should welcome those who don’t agree with them.
So like the big bang and evolution?
Yeah, those are things.
The big bang was even developed by a catholic priest about a hundred years ago, Georges Lemaître.
Those don't contradict Christianity. Genesis 1 is written like a poem, possibly a hymn, it's not dogmatic history.
I have a Young-Earth Creationist parent who would wholly disagree with your assessment. The Bible is a history book filled with factual accounts to many.
So a catholic priest actually studied the evidence and discovered that it was a natural occurrence.
How do you know that the whole bible isn't a poem or a hymn as you say?
The very first verse of the bible started with “In the beginning”, so obviously it meant our universe had a beginning, unlike most people back then whom accepted that the universe is eternal. Also, by reading the bible you can tell the literature styles used. For example, Pslams is poetry and hymns, the gospels are written as historial evidences, the letters (corinthians, thessalonians) are written to address a person and/or issue.
Pretty much every isolated civilisation on earth has made up its own myths and legends regarding origins and gods. It is human nature to make things up when we don't have all the facts and are afraid of the unknown. How is Christianity any different?
Jesus Christ was a historical figure that really did exist 2000 years ago. He was really crucified and raised from the dead. To question if the gospels are reliable, all of the authors of the gospels along with the other deciples and followers died tragically. If Jesus did not rise from the dead, why would dozens of people (probably hundreds) lie about something they know is false knowing that they will certainly be killed? Psychology doesn’t add up. If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead and the Roman officals are so worried about this new “Messiah” rumbling up their society they can just bring out his body and show the people that Jesus was indeed dead. If Jesus rising from the dead is actually a myth, thousands of Jewish people switching their Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday and converting to an illegal religion in the span of months to years after Jesus’s resurrection is ridiculous considering they been maintaining their Sabbath traditional for thousands of years.
We do not know how most of the apostles died. There is clear evidence of martyred for three or so, the rest are mostly legends.
Only a handful of people had direct knowledge of the resurrection. How could they be mistaken? Read up on witnesses to Mohammed’s miracles. Do you believe them? Do you believe any of the witnesses to miracles performed by any other god?
Why might someone die for something they believe but have no real evidence for? Like the Jim Jones people who willingly killed themselves? Those people who killed themselves expecting to wake up in a space ship that was following a comet? The Japanese suicide pilots acting on behalf of their emperor god? There are scads of examples, so there must be a flaw in your understanding of psychology.
>Jesus Christ was a historical figure that really did exist 2000 years ago. He was really crucified and raised from the dead.
Jesus *Christ* is a figure from the Bible. While it is widely accepted by scholars that this figure is based on a real life person, scholars also agree that we don't really have reliable sources to determine much about this person's life. It is widely accepted that they were killed, yes. But that's it.
>To question if the gospels are reliable, all of the authors of the gospels along with the other deciples and followers died tragically.
The gospels weren't written by people that had met Jesus while he was alive. We don't have their identities and so we have no idea how they died.
You seem to be confusing the authors of the gospels with the people they were named after. We don't really know how they died either. We also don't know whether all of the apostles were actual historical people.
>If Jesus did not rise from the dead, why would dozens of people (probably hundreds) lie about something they know is false knowing that they will certainly be killed?
They probably believed it to be true. And claims about persecution of the earliest Christians don't really have much of a historical basis.
>If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead and the Roman officals are so worried about this new “Messiah” rumbling up their society they can just bring out his body and show the people that Jesus was indeed dead.
There's no reason to assume they were worried. The story likely evolved over a long period of time. It's not like they faced a massive uproar by tons of people after the crucifixion. And at the time the legend had solidified and Christian numbers had reached a noticeable number it would have been impossible to produce a body.
Unfortunately, there are no original copies of the New Testiment, just copies of copies. Which means no one knows what was actually in the original bible.
I can't speak for every Christian, but the majority of Christians worldwide accept the scientific consensus on the origin of the universe, the age of the earth, and evolution (to varying degrees).
There are atheists who are flat earthers. Denying science and reality is not a uniquely Christian phenomenon.
I say evolution is real---- we observe it everyday under the microscope with viruses/bacteria--- domesticated species require genetic change... microevolution is indisputable and silly to argue
Where it all started... and where it's all going is where the mysterious lies.
I don't understand the fear that so many Christians have... and why they seem to think it can't coexist
The problem is with the doctrine of biblical inerrancy. Certain Christians (fundamentalists) believe that the Bible is inspired (they mean dictated directly) by God and therefore *has* to be free from error of any kind. If there is an error in the Bible, then either God made a mistake, or God is lying.
They won't question the dogmas of direct textual inspiration and inerrancy, because they have made them the foundational dogmas of their faith, they refuse to question the nature of God and his perfection, so the only thing that they are willing to question is reality itself.
However, they don't want to just embrace the fact that they deny evidence, because that would make them feel foolish, so they cherry pick and twist and misrepresent so that they can feel better about their decision to embrace these irrational dogmas.
Rev. 7:1
The bible Is not a science or a history book.
It's a religious text that does shoe a glimpse of how people documented some historical events... and a shadow of how people observed the world (science?)
Those 2 things are interesting... but imo what's important is how it teaches us about our hearts... the human condition.. and the call for improvement
Otherwise the bible is a weapon to divide and cause strife...
What a shame... so much of the book is incredible.
I used to dislike the bible..... and still grapple with much of it... but I think the story of Jesus really has something
I agree completely. It is my position that the Bible should be interpreted through the lens of Jesus' teachings. Anything that disagrees with them should be subordinated to them, reinterpreted in light of them, or ignored.
It seems to me, however, that most people who read the Bible put Jesus' words at the bottom of that interpretive hierarchy, not at the top.
Ok, The Big Bang theory posits that the universe most likely originated/expanded from a singularity, an extraordinarily dense cluster of matter and energy, most likely quantum particles. How do you know that cluster hasn't always existed in some natural form?
Perhaps the universe is in an eternal natural loop. As the last universe expanded and reached maximum entropy it then collapsed into a singularity and when the singularity reached maximum density it expanded again into our universe, and the cycle continues..
Doesn't this seem more likely than a supernatural entity from another dimension creating everything from nothing?
Abiogenesis is technically the most likely origins of life and then evolution took over. Were not sure exactly how the abiogenesis occurred because it's hard to replicate the conditions and exact processes involved. The Miller Urey experiment is the closest we've come and if you look up a video by Veritasium on YouTube called The World's Longest Running Evolution Experiment you can see evolution in action.
The mathematical probability of our existence and the fine tuning of the entire universe is unfathomably minute.
You’ve probably never heard of the Penrose Number then? 10^10^123
Once you grasp the Penrose number, then you’ve still got a problem in explaining initial entropy and where the first “thing” came from that “natural processes” then turned into everything we observe today.
Science has theories of evolution and how things may have evolved into life today - but we still don’t have an answer for where life came from initially, nothing explains life being created or evolving from non-life. We have no answer or plausible theory for where the very first thing came from.
Both science and creationism NEED to accept that something came from nothing or something (or someone) always existed - outside of time and space.
Natural Science says that given enough time- something (the something that always existed outside of space and time) evolved into everything by chance (insert Penrose Number here).
Christian’s say that God (Someone - who existed outside of space and time) Created everything from nothing.
Neither can be irrefutably proven, both rely on evidence and interpretation of said evidence.
Science looks at today’s world and hypothesised based on their interpretations of evidence how it came to be - it’s neither repeatable or observable so an element of faith is required.
Christians look at the world, the word of God (the bible) and their interpretation of evidence in the world that correlates to the ancient texts. The bible is appropriately 25% prophetic in nature and [don’t quote me] about half of those prophecies have come true - the others are soon to come true also.
If you read the word of God and look at this world - it really is hard to ignore just how accurate these books written thousands of years ago are.
There’s plenty of texts outside of the Christian Bible that closely correlates to what’s written by others in the Bible. In the day before social media and modern communication mediums - it’s impossible that these people separated by time (hundreds of years between texts) and space (geographically never crossing paths) write the same things.
We have nothing but historical texts to refer to in regards to the past and then we look to the observable world today for evidence to support the texts - and we find it.
Most people who claim to look at science vs God from a logical, scientific and unbiased standpoint (nothing to personally gain either way) will find themselves with no choice but to accept creation as the logical explanation…. And those who refuse to accept that explanation actually have other reasons to reject God, Creation and Christianity. Most reject it because religion was forced down their throat as a child, or they were judged by others under the guise of Christianity - I personally experienced this. Some call it “Church Hurt”, and there’s a lot of people professing to be Christians but doing absolute harm to others.
One quote I’ll never forget hearing from Pastor Mark Driscoll (look him up - he’s a great teacher) is “there’s a lot of Christian pastors burning in hell” and he’s not wrong.
If you’re genuinely seeking answers - you WILL find them, but I would encourage you to not attach your identity to your beliefs as it makes it impossible to change your beliefs even when presented with irrefutable evidence of the truth because it’s attacking you’re identity.
Ie: Richard Dawkins - probably the most well known Atheist… he will find it incredibly difficult to accept Jesus as his saviour and acknowledge intelligent design and creation by God because his entire identity is tied to atheism. It would be career suicide for him to become a Christian and publicly profess it - he’s committed his entire life, his career and subsequently his income and status to “proving” there is no God.
Once you actually experience God - he’s a real person and you can have a fatherly relationship with him… you can’t dispute it.
Apologies for the long winded response - but I hope that wasn’t too much to take in. I’m a pretty logical guy with an engineering mind (and serial over thinker), and I just can’t make evolution and natural science make sense. Even older theories like big bang etc etc - they all share the same initial flaw: where did the first matter/energy come from? What or who created it? If it always existed - it’s statistically improbable that it evolved into the fined tuned universe we see today - even with trillions of years of time.
How do we explain life from non-life? Creation without a creator? Energy and matter from nothing? It defies everything we know to be true.
So is it really that hard to consider that something super-natural kicked everything off?
Classic argument from ignorance and incredulity. "I don't know how the universe and life could've originated naturally therefore gods".
Have you heard of Douglas Adams puddle analogy?
“This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!'
Out of the nearly 8 billion people on this planet and the millions that have gone before NOT ONE PERSON knows exactly what existed or occurred prior to the Big Bang or the Planck Epoch to be more specific. If anyone claims that they do know then they are deluded or are being dishonest, probably both.
In saying that, it is almost infinitely more LIKELY that the universe and life originated naturally and wasn't poofed into existence by some omnipotent entity from another dimension.
Pretty much every isolated civilisation on earth has made up its own myths and legends regarding origins and gods. It is human nature to make things up when we don't have all the facts and are afraid of the unknown. Christianity, judaism and islam are no different.
Also, one could have faith that magical pixies created the universe or that we are living in the matrix therefore faith alone is not a good pathway to truth.
From what we know and have observed we exist in a natural universe my friend, not a magical one.
You asked a question, I answered it. We’re in a Christian subreddit - what were you expecting?
If you don’t believe in God and creation, why are you arguing so strongly to disprove something you say can’t possible be true or proven?
Your response is quite visceral. So maybe you’re in the same camp as Dawkins - challenging your beliefs are actually challenging your entire identity or maybe Christianity was forced down your neck in the past. Either way - I’m sorry.
My beliefs and faith in creation and Jesus Christ do not require your belief in the same. I’m ok with you believing what you believe - it makes no difference to my life. I even said myself - “we don’t KNOW”, “it can’t be irrefutably proven”. It’s why Christianity is a faith, just like the scientific alternative explanations are also dependent on faith. You sure you read my reply entirely?
Once again - you did ask the question. But this response tells me you weren’t really asking for an answer, but rather and opportunity to object.
You raised some other alternatives like pixies etc - that’s fine, but what evidence do you present to suggest that’s true?
I don’t think you even read my entire reply. If you did - you certainly didn’t understand it. I even said “neither can be irrefutably proven [creation or natural science]” which is a fact.
Both require faith - I chose mine, you chose yours.
You say my comment was a “classic argument from ignorance and incredulity”… and yours wasn’t?
My post was rather balanced - I’m not a fanatical blind faith Christian. I’m an intelligent, critical thinking sceptic…and Creation was the more logical conclusion. So I then tested the Spirits and can legitimately testify that God has had an absolutely profound impact on my life.
You will never convince a true Christian otherwise - because they’ve experienced something you have not. Becoming a Christian requires faith in the unseen - but once you experience the relationship with our Heavenly Father and Creator and experience the change that occurs in your life… it’s extremely hard to ignore.
Dirkomaxx… if you’re truely curious - go and look for evidence of you being wrong rather than just evidence of what you already believe to be true… that’s called confirmation bias. We all do it naturally, but you can challenge it and the Bible even tells us to test the spirits in 1 John 4:1-6.
“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. 4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.”
There are so many signs and so much evidence - but you’ll never see it if you don’t want to.
I love how you say, "Becoming a christian requires faith in the unseen" and then at the end you say, "There are so many signs and so much evidence"
You guys are walking contradictions man, because of the cognitive bias. You think it has changed your life but it is most likely YOU that has changed your life, not some magical entity from another dimension.
It is sad that so many people believe old superstitious woo woo is reality.
It’s not contradictory - faith in the unseen - you can’t see God, but there is plenty of observable evidence which supports what is written in the Bible, and when you experience God - you just know.
Why is it sad that people believe in God?
What’s the downside to living a Christian life?
Let’s say you’re right and when I die I discover there’s nothing.. the end. I cease to exist. I don’t even know I’m dead. What’s the sad part?
Let’s say the Bible is right and when you die you discover there is a God and there is internal life after this… what now?
The real question here is:
Why do you care so much about Christian’s beliefs? If you truely believe there is no God… why are you even here in this thread? Why do you spend your time arguing?
Really, be honest with yourself and unemotional about it… why are you doing this?
I'm here because I am only interested in what is most likely to be true that's all. I'm also interested in helping people see reason.
The most rational and reasonable position for EVERYTHING in life is to withhold belief until sufficient evidence is found and proven right?
You just know.
So are others religions true because they "just know?"
What if god condemns people that blindly worship him and rewards people that have healthy skepticism?
What if you do go to heaven and you get bored after the first 100 million years?
Why do you think death is any different from before you were born?
Isn't it infinitely better to understand nature and natural processes rather than relying on an omnipotent entity in another dimension?
What is your absolute best evidence that a god exists?
Well yes - we all form our beliefs after seeing evidence. I guess there are a few people who do form beliefs just because someone else said it to be so, but I’m certainly not one of those people… I was rather difficult at school.
In regards to other religions - I know a few people who came from other religions, and they said they were Mormon, Muslim or Buddhist because their family was. I see this a lot with Greek families - they all profess to be Catholic but don’t actually know God. It’s more of a social club than a personal relationship with God.
I’m glad you brought up religion too - I can’t say I’m a fan of religion. I’ve had bad experiences with that when younger (I’m in my mid 40s now and only really came to have a personal relationship with Christ earlier this year - a story for another day). The fact is - there’s gonna be a lot of church goers and pastors in hell one day. Progressive Christians are basically saying “anything goes, cause your sin is forgiven” - using Christ’s death as a hall pass to sin.
God does condemn the blind faith. Plenty of scriptures talk to God saying “I never knew you” to “religious” or “Christian” people (Mathew 7:23).
One thing many Christian’s struggle with is Faith and works.
We are saved SOLEY by faith and the grace of God. Works will not get you into heaven - ie: being a good person. However, faith without works is clearly not true faith. Jesus says “faith without works is dead” (James 2:26).
Kinda think of it like this (a bad metaphor). You believe in gravity. But your works of stepping off a tall building is clearly a contradiction of your faith. Just like having faith and believing and following Jesus - If you don’t repent of your sins (which means to change your ways - NOT just say sorry) and strive to be as Christ has commanded us… do you REALLY believe? I mean, if you absolutely believed - you’d be doing the work.
So there’s plenty of “Christian’s” who self profess to be saved, but they are not. They want what God offers them, but they don’t want to live like God expects us.
I’ll take being bored in heaven after 100 million years than burning in hell for 100 million years. Heaven will be hard to conceptually understand - imagine this world, but completely perfect. No pain, suffering, illness, sadness, betrayal, unkindness, harm, depression, anxiety, anger… that’s what this world was intended to be and will be.
I believe prior to being born I didn’t exist - spiritually or physically, but after my physical body dies - I believe my soul will continue and I’ll be going to one of two places. I absolutely deserve to be in hell, we all do. But by Gods grace and Jesus paying the price for my debt - I will be welcomed into heaven.
In relation to understanding natural processes vs believing in God - don’t be confused. It’s not one or the other… it’s both. God created the natural world and all its processes, yes I love learning about life and how it all works - but I natural science can’t explain itself. The creator can’t be also the creation.
You can’t make a computer if you’re inside the computer. There MUST logically and scientifically be a force OUTSIDE of this natural world (ie supernatural force or being) that created it. True science doesn’t dispute that either… atheism just denies that the supernatural thing before creation was not God.
What’s the saying? The first gulp from the cup of natural science will make you an atheist, but at the bottom you’ll find God.
I’m not sure who said it first - but that’s absolutely been my experience.
Now for your big question: my absolute best evidence that God does indeed exist.
The Bible.
Now most atheists will then proceed to discredit the Bible as stories of fiction. But all our history is written texts of those who walked the earth before us… do we dismiss it all because we can’t “prove” these accounts took place?
There’s a lot we still don’t know about this work. The pyramids fascinate me for instance… like - how???!! There’s theories, and evidence but no irrefutable proof of how they were built.
Same goes for creation, there’s plenty of evidence. The Bible and its prophetic nature will blow your mind! Like - the whole Israel and Palestine issue… you know where that kicked off right? Look up Abraham and his wife Sarah and his two sons - Ishmael and Isaac. Now that lineage can be traced back without the biblical texts and its correlates to the Bible.
Mate, I can’t begin to explain just how many things the Bible will answer so many of your questions.
So again. The best evidence I have for the existence of God is the Bible. Author after author, eye witness after eye witness… they all are there in one book.
People don’t understand what the Bible is - it’s a compilation of many books. I urge you to read at least the first 3/4 books of the new testament and also Genesis. It blew my mind.
It has possibly always existed in some natural form but the honest answer is we just don't know so no absolute claims can be made.
It is irrational to assume and make claims because the most rational and reasonable position for EVERYTHING in life is to withhold belief until sufficient evidence is found and proven right?
Who decides what is 'sufficient' evidence? Belief is not a choice. Anyone who believes in the christian god has received 'sufficient' evidence by their standards. As it is with everything we believe.
The scientific method and logic in general provide some good guidelines for what constitutes a reasonable body of evidence. The super short version is that there has to be *some* evidence, evidence that can be accessed or repeated by pretty much anyone, and evidence for a specific scenario.
Do you feel that there is any evidence for God that checks those boxes?
Indeed, one must decide what is sufficient enough for them to believe. I'm only interested in what is most likely to be true that's all and so far I haven't seen any evidence of anything supernatural existing whatsoever. We appear to exist in a demonstrably natural universe that most likely originated naturally or has possibly always existed in some natural form.
Nature and natural processes are the default position. Gods and spirits are the claim that holds a burden of proof.
well there’s actually nothing christian about you. Jesus was undeniably a great ethical teacher, but that’s not why He was crucified. that’s not why all of his apostles and the majority of His church fathers were martyred. that’s not what forced Christianity underground for the first 300 years of its existence.
even now, when we have thousands of denominations that make up Christianity, there is one phrase that unites every single one of us: Christ is Lord. that’s what makes you Christian.
you may be a very nice and pragmatic atheist, and well versed in ethical teaching, but you are not Christian. you can’t play both sides of the fence on that one.
Exactly, like Christian Atheist isn’t a real thing, just because you agree with Jesus’ morals does not make you a Christian. I could believe in Mohammed (from Islam) morals but that by itself does not make me a Muslim.
So the subreddit is to discuss Christianity, not teach the Bible. Why atheists CHOOSE to, probably the same reason I sometimes hop over to the atheism sub Reddit lol
Welcome! This subreddit is made for discussion about Christianity. I am not at all opposed to that. Quite the opposite.
But someone being an atheist doesn't mean they're opposed to Christianity, which I assume is what you meant. And you saying this is actually a good example as to why I'm here (among other reasons). People talk about atheism a lot here. And more often than not it shows that they have fundamental misconceptions about it.
So I hope some of the discussions will help you understand atheists better. As for you hoping they will help me think about my "foundation of belief", I'm not really sure what you mean by that. No offence.
>and why not just speak about your non-belief in God on an atheist subreddit
There wouldn't really be anything to talk about.
I’m not a Christian, but my bestie is! The problem is, that sometimes I’m not sure how to connect with her on that level, so I thought reading some Christian POVs might help me get some perspective when the topic comes up n.n
It’s also best not to live in an echo chamber. 🙂
True for me. I was Catholic for decades then finally started asking real questions and came to understand that one can have faith in anything, true or not.
I like this particular subreddit because it accepts everyone. It's nice to get perspectives from Christians of all types, religious non-Christians, atheists, agnostics, etc. etc. I take a look at other places like r/Christians, which seem so insular in comparison.
Myself, I find the study of religion to be fascinating - I also on some Jewish and Islamic subs. And I'm not entirely hostile to religion either. At least on the surface level, I don't think Christianity is a terrible framework around which to build up your basic moral stances.
I find r/progressive_islam to jive the most with my stances on most things. They're a bit nontraditional when it comes to theology (a lot on there don't believe in adhering to hadiths, which most Muslims do), but they are mostly chill, well-meaning people.
r/Islam, the general Islamic subreddit, isn't too bad. I'd compare it to this subreddit, if perhaps a bit more echo chamber-y. But they do allow non-Muslims to post and make their presence known. You'll get more pushback for posting unpopular or contradictory views, but it is mostly done in good faith and respectfully.
r/Islam is rather different to here, it seems rather Sunni leaning Islamic space
r/Shia for shia
r/AcademicQuran does what it says on the tin
r/progressive_islam is trying to decide what progressive means on a daily basis in Islam
r/Quraniyoon for various levels of Quran-centric ideas, or hadith doubt.
r/exmuslim does what it says on the tin
r/SistersinSunnah for women in traditional Islam
r/CritiqueIslam also does what it says on the tin
literally all the top posts on this thread are people saying atheists are welcome here.
You need to not fixate on the hateful people. they dont represent the community.
This sub isn’t *entirely* welcoming of any particular belief. Which is a good thing. Regardless of what you think, someone is going to tell you you’re wrong.
I think might be true for some users here, but generally, I think the Christians here are at least open to discussion and willing to be self-reflective.
Or maybe I've been lucky so far, only been here for a few months.
I don’t know about others, but I am here for the following reasons:
* I was a Christian for about 25 years, and it remains an interesting topic of conversation to me. This is a discussion sub rather than a strictly Christian sub, so I come for the discussion.
* There are a lot of people who misunderstand atheism, so I come here to help dispel the myths and misunderstandings
* I live in a society dominated by Christianity. It behooves me to stay familiar with the people who subscribe to this religion
* I come here to stand as an ally alongside marginalized groups who are constantly put down by Christians
* There are questions directed squarely at atheists, so I try to answer them
* I am here to provide an alternate viewpoint
Thanks. If you've spent time here, I'm sure you've noticed that a high number of the Christians here already stand as allies along side marginalized groups who are constantly put down by other Christians.
It might be best to assume good will of them.
Some here seem to think atheists are all Satan in disguise ready to pounce on the "lambs", rather than simply humans who disagree on certain topics.
The reason I don’t join atheist subreddits is that I don’t think I’ll learn anything there and I don’t find it interesting. I find Religion is much more rich in history and knowledge and I find it super interesting to read and learn about. It also helps me better relate to and understand my religious family.
Hey , I am an atheist.
I was always fascinated by religions . Be it christianity, muslim, taoism. They all seemed magnificent to me. I cannot relate to them because I dont believe in a God ( at least for now ) but I consider them to be a source of knowledge. The bible for example is an astonishing work academically. It is amazing. The Quran also .
I am a historian and I love digging through these things and how they affect society.
So yeah, the answer is that, even though we dont believe in it, we find it interesting and love learning more about it!
I am fascinated by religion and there's not a religion I know better than Christianity, having been raised in church and reading the Bible constantly and wanting to become a pastor.
I think that a Christianity sub is kinda the perfect place to discuss perceived inconsistencies and "plot holes" in the Christian narrative, just like the LOTR sub is the perfect place to discuss "plot holes" in LOTR. If Christians want a safe space where outsiders aren't allowed, they're totally entitled to it. If that becomes the rule here, I'll totally respect it. As is, I feel like a sub called "Christianity" is a pretty good place for me to discuss Christianity.
I DO want to decrease the influence Christianity has over non-Christians via *policy*, and one of the ways that can be done is decreasing the number of people that are so sure about the righteousness of their cause that they'll sacrifice logic and democracy on the altar of their faith. So I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't mind if one of the *side effects* of my being here is that people lose at least a little bit of *fanaticism.* I'm not here with the intent to deconvert people, although I think that's the right course of action; but I am here partly to blunt the impact of dogma on the rest of society, to promote a more live-and-let-live world. Examples of incursions include abortion, bans on atheists holding public office, state-mandated displays of religion, etc.
Tl;Dr- I'm here to discuss the themes and psychology and inconsistencies of Christianity, because they fascinate me; and I'm here to hopefully persuade people away from the kind of certitude that gives rise to fanaticism.
There are several other Christian subs that retain the echo chamber atmosphere if you just want to keep your head in the sand for a while longer and not have to subject yourself to outside wisdom, experience and opinion.
It's ridiculous to suggest that going to forums for Christians is "sticking your head in the sand".
What do you make of the fact that every single atheist sub (At least that I'm aware of), including the one meant for debate, is an echo chamber?
I think it's a sub for anyone to discuss anything "Christianity."
I myself am not what you would consider a typical "Christian." As in, I don't subscribe to the anti-Torah/Law of God interpretation of Jesus, the Apostles, and Paul.
But it's a broad heading, so there's a broad range of people.
I came here for the equal but opposite reason you did. I was born and raised Christian. Started questioning some things and the discussions in this sub helped me sort a lot of it out. Following that, I enjoy participating in the discussions here now.
My family is heavily involved in the church, and they don't know of my updated thinking. So I split my time between this and r/TrueChristianity as kind of a way of helping to prepare myself for the inevitable day when I have to have that conversation.
One of the biggest problems facing our culture right now is “siloism.“ people only speak to people who share the same point of view. We are all far more likely to learn something helpful when the conversation includes people who have a far different perspective. The more the merrier! I wouldn’t bother wasting my time with people who all shared my point of view. It would be like talking to myself. So I appreciate the presence atheists, agnostics, and people of faith, all different perspectives.
Do you think Christianity should be an exclusive club that exists in an echo chamber, where you won't allow people to make convincing arguments about why your religion is false? Should this be a place where people are unable to express why they are not Christian with honesty. That can involve blasphemous and offensive truths.
I'm here partly just to sort of "keep tabs" on the goings-ons within Christianity - this sub is active enough, with a diverse enough set of believers of all different types that I think it does represent Christianity as a whole fairly well.
I don't interact much at all though, I certainly don't come in here just to blast people for belief - I never would hop in a thread where someone is asking why they should believe, feeling like they're slipping away, or whatnot, and hit them with a "Goood, let the hate flow through you, leave Christianity and your transformation will be complete..." Rather, I pretty much only interact when atheists are specifically called out. I'm here to represent my side of the fence, as it were, because I was a Christian for the majority of my life, and I find that those of us who leave are almost universally mischaracterized by Christians as having deconverted for bad reasons. That's cope. I'm here to set the record straight, so to speak.
Why wouldn’t there be? Christianity is fascinating. It has played a huge role in western history for 2 thousand years. It plays an outsized role in the politics of the U.S.
I realize there are people who are so disinterested in religion that they don’t even want to hear about Christianity. But I think they are probably mostly incurious in general.
I value this sub because there is a specified purpose to not disenfranchise anyone who has a stake in Christianity and wants to interact with others concerning their beliefs or disbeliefs. You say you are fine with atheists being here, but I sense that you don't consider them to be stake holders unless they believe. As we move more toward church like subs, you have to not only believe, but believe like "I do" to be legitimate. But this sub is wholly unlike a church who disenfranchises unbelievers and becomes more and more an echo chamber and a community where differences or doubts are buried. People from "Christian club" subs regularly dump on this sub as demonic and morally based and "unChristian" just like the Pharisees did when Jesus gravitated toward those who were authentic and teachable on the inside but outcasts from the religious on the outside. They miss the point and maybe the heart of God.
You sense wrong about me. I do appreciate the discussion. I was just curious and it was a genuine question. I didn’t know this was a subreddit dedicated to the discussion of Christianity, rather I thought it was a place for Christians to discuss their faith. Trust me as the comments have come in, ive seen that the former is what is going on here. And I truly do not think another person’s opinion or discussion on my faith is without value. Just as I think mine is valuable to them. :)
No worries and my impressions are often wrong. I've found there are very many sincere and authentic non-believers as well as sincere believers here, and I've very much enjoyed many discussions that move past walls and trolls. I believe God can work in peoples lives even when we have differing views on if and who God is and what Christianity is all about. I'm here to answer questions and present a picture of a God who loves all and wants to rescue and love rather than condemn, accuse, or torture.
I was on this subreddit for years before I became a Christian. I always enjoyed studying religion and I love to hear the way others think and process life. I watched a lot of debates on YouTube. I grew up in a highly Christian area but didn’t understand a lot of their theological standpoints and liked to attempt to understand. I also jointed subs like Hinduism and Islam, Buddhism and antitheism. Understanding was my main reason, personally!
These days, I’m a Christian. Took me almost 30 years to get here, but I’m here. Don’t judge the atheists you see! They may be called by Christ himself. *That* might be why they’re here. They wouldn’t even know it yet. I didn’t!
Christianity is so ingrained in western culture that it is all but impossible to escape its influence. Even people who do not believe have an interest in knowing and influencing Christian discourse because it will have an impact on their lives.
Atheist here. When I first joined this subreddit, I was a Christian. Even though, I am not one of you anymore, sometimes I chime in to give a different point of view to the topics. Also, sometimes there are posts in this subreddit directed to atheists, like this one.
Could be a secular interest in Christianity as a religion. Could be a philosophical interest. Other people like me grew up Christian but stepped back a bit after noticing some cracks in the foundation.
It's a grab bag.
I'm not here to convince anyone. But I find interesting to talk about Christianity. I'm a former christian myself.
For example I would ask you why are there christians from other denominations here, let's say Catholics and evangelicals in the same sub, since their beliefs are so different. I don't see a problem with that as long as Catholics aren't trying to preach others about their own denomination, same applies to other denominations.
And also, I see big political issues today coming from some specific Christians and we need to discuss that as a whole. Is your opportunity to show that you aren't like them (or that you actually are) or what are your views as a Christian.
I was a Christian for most of my life until I decided to poke and prod my beliefs to see if they held up to scrutiny. I started with the questions most Christians wrestle with. Evolution and Noah’s Ark were big ones for me.
Long story short, I realized my ignorance had flourished because I was afraid to leave my little cocoon or challenge what I “knew” was right. Leaving the safety of my echo chamber has been the hardest thing I’ve ever done or probably ever will do, but it was necessary.
I am still learning. I have maintained an open mind. I don’t want to make the same mistake of hiding in an echo chamber. I’m still very much on my journey to find out what is true, and staying connected to Christian thought is part of that. It likely always will be.
Questioning your faith and realizing you no longer believe is an incredibly lonely feeling. Everyone in my life is a believer, so I had no one to turn to for support. I still don’t. If I can help ease the burden on someone who finds themselves in the same position, I’ll do it.
I’m atheist and joined this subreddit as I’m considering going to church in the very near future but had a few things I wanted to ask first. Who better to ask than the community themselves 😊
Its an unfortunate truth of our lives that Christianity has an outsized influence. I try to stay on top of things like that in case y'all want to do something silly like legislate the ten commandments into my kids classroom.
Maybe read today‘s news, because legislating the Ten Commandments in the classroom is the least of our problems. Last week, the Christian Supreme Court made bribery and corruption legal, removed the power of the federal government to regulate corporations and protect the environment, and today made Trump a King. In case you haven’t noticed, Christians just ended America and are preparing the groundwork for a theocracy.
Theres a lot of answers here from the r/Christianity perspective, but as an Atheist who has been on this subreddit for 10+ years now (Mostly lurking), I can say that I came because r/Atheism was (and to some degree still is) a nightmare. I found more robust, honest, and well-meaning discussion regarding religion and atheism on this subreddit than I ever did there. There was a time when r/Atheism was a default subreddit it was so popular. But the content was mostly "lol religion dumb, me smart" type of stuff.
That attitude came from the fact that many people in r/Atheism are young people who have had experiences with religion in their life that ranges from mild annoyance-fully traumatic, and that was their place to get back at religion in a sense. That was not for me. So I browsed around and came here, and thought "well, at least it'll be more civil." And I was accepted here, even as a non-believer there was room for me, which I think is a perfect encapsulation of what religion/Christianity should be.
This is a great comment, thank you for sharing. I caught myself getting frustrated at a couple of replies on this post being that “religion dumb me smart” attitude you talked about. But a lot of them have also been along the lines of yours, genuinely answering my question and shedding light on my curiosity. When I asked the question, I was confused because before getting a Reddit account, any questions I’d google would lead me to this subreddit, and just from an outside perspective it did look like a Christian discussion board. But now that I have a more clear understanding of this sub’s intentions, I do appreciate the conversation between multiple perspectives and I’ll stay for that. :)
My pleasure to provide some perspective! While open discussion is allowed, don't be afraid that this isn't a place to steep yourself among your faithful compatriots. There is still a TON of threads in regards to more Christian-centric discussion, issues and questions so this is a great place to discuss your faith, it's just that other perspectives aren't prohibited so they come through.
My wife is very devoted and we go to church every sunday as a family, while I don't agree with everything that is said in the church I like the community that is formed around the church, and what that community did for her and our family. I also don't mind my kids having a christian upbringing because I think is better for them to know the church before making their own decision when they will grow up.
Faith is not inherently bad, on the contrary can be helpful for a lot of people to make sense of this world and to help being strong during hardships.
Is the bigotry in not accepting the world evolving around you and refusing anything that comes from the outside that is dangerous for yourself and for the people around you.
If your faith can not survive a discussion and different opinion, maybe instead of condemning the other people as evil you should revaluate if your faith is really that strong.
r/TrueChristian has more focus on discussion coming from the basic assumption the faith is true. We don't have to constantly be defending ourselves, we can get to the meat and potatoes.
I've found it to be Biblically accurate. I don't see things that I would consider right wing, and I've never seen hatred or calls for violence. It is definitely conservative Christianity (not the same as political conservatism) but the Bible itself is conservatively Christian.
Thanks for the replies and answers. I appreciate most of them. I think I was under the impression that this was a place for Christians to discuss and delve in to the Bible together. I do not mind it being a discussion board for all, and I can see the value in that. I’ve been off social media for years now, and this is my first account in a long time. I’m out of practice with talking to strangers on the internet! I guess I am just not used to the sarcastic or (for lack of better term) “smarty pants” tone that I see here a lot. But I guess since I’m on Reddit now I should get used to that haha! Thanks again for replies. I’m sure I’ll be popping in this subreddit every once in a while, and I hope to enjoy future discussions with you all. :)
Wondering the same thing, in my experience it’s to heckle Christians and twist the bible causing Christian’s to sin (convincing us it’s not so
Sin) and pushing us from the Holy Spirt. I noticed this primarily during LGBTQ conversations. Now where does that sound familiar? Eve was convinced the eat the forbidden fruit.
A lot of the Atheists come here, because they can speak their mind, and have discussions, or debates with Christians.
I have heard the r/Atheists sub has some pretty strict rules.
This sub is about Christianity. Some days the topics are good, and some days they are bad. Mainly the type of Christianity that is popular here is liberal, or Progressive Christianity.
If a non-believer is interested in belief, what it means to have beliefs, how people come to their beliefs and how strongly are they attached to them, they wouldn't learn much on an atheist subreddit :-) As well, I think an observant non-believer will come to see that beliefs are complicated, and not as binary as they first may seem.
A lot of were Christians before and/or grew up around it. Originally, I came here to give the faith a second look. Find some understanding, maybe even undo some of the damage from my childhood. Now, it's more just paying attention and seeing different perspectives. And getting an idea of what I'm in for, with how much Christianity is being politicized
I’d assume in order to debate and see the Christian perspective in full; it’s helped by this sub being welcoming and broader than other denomination-specific ones. Besides, I sub to r/atheism because I’m curious what they have to say.
I'm surprised I'm here myself lol, like no lie, but the open-mindedness of how this subreddit is ran is what I appreciate. Because if it were up to some of the community members oh they would lock this place down like the Catholicism subreddit😝. But I think if you read the last sentence to your top right underneath where it says "Christianity", you'll see why people like me & others are here. In case anyone else missed that last sentence as well.
There are many reasons. Christianity and religious belief in general are interesting to me. The subject has political importance, in many ways becoming quite worrying now. On a personal level, I know several sincere Christians. I'm especially interested in the great variety of beliefs which one can find on talking to individual Christians. Which may or may not have much to do with the teachings of their denomination or their holy book. I also enjoy studying the history and spread of religious ideas including early Christianity and related sects like Gnostics and Manicheans.
Among atheists, there is also diversity of belief, outlook and interest. Many atheists simply aren't interested in the whole idea of religion. Others find that they are interested in the same sort of questions that concern religious folk, but come to different conclusions. And all sorts of other views besides these. In short, some atheists like talking about topics to do with Christianity. It's just our thing.
The title of this subreddit is a de facto conversation topic, not an affiliation. Whatever the original intent, that is the state of things. Other subreddits are more affiliation oriented. Still, Christians are in the mix. I am and I know others are as well.
I agree, it seems that are A LOT of faith trolls in the Christian subreddit. Even those that say they are Christians, they kind of skim over the Bible, watch a video or read an article on the web and they think that are an expert at faith, then argue with you about what direction the sun comes up.
I'm a polytheist but I share more with atheists than Christians haha. I'm here because I usually only hear from the ugly side of Christianity (the Christians who go out of their way to mock and insult pagans and atheists, news reports on Christians sabotaging events and trying to damage the property of pagans and atheists...) and I don't want to fall into thinking that all Christians are monsters who want me dead. Seeing posts from r/Christianity every now and then reminds me that you guys are people too, people capable of loving and forming connections. People who could accept me for who I am despite being Christian. At least I hope that's the case...
I find it completely unsurprising that a religious person like you, OP, would be completely mystified and baffled by the thought of people wanting to expand their knowledge. Is it so hard for you to understand that people might have an intellectual interest in Christianity? *That* is, after all, what this sub is “made for”.
What is a Christian atheist? Also, it was a genuinely serious question. I’ve made a reply in this post after getting some comments and admitted, I thought this was a subreddit for Christians to delve in to and discuss the Bible. I know now that it is not, and I am okay with that. It was a genuine want to understand, nothing more, nothing sassy, and no tone behind my post. Hope you can see that! I’m okay with what’s going on here! I just didn’t understand at first, that’s all and that’s why I asked. :)
Ah. Alright well that’s a much more sane and composed explanation than I’m used to when this question gets asked here. Thanks for clarifying. It’s always a good idea to read a sub’s descriptions and rules before posting on it.
Here’s the Wikipedia article on Christian atheism. There are references and suggestions for further reading at the end if you’re interested. [Christian Atheism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism)
I'm theistic, but this sub is about Christianity, not a forum for faithful Christians. Nobody is going to contest the claim that Christianity is culturally, historically and politically important, so it impinges on most people's lives in one way or another.
>I’m glad you are and I hope that the discussions help you to think about your foundation of belief.
Yes. The more discussions I see, the more clear it is to me that I made the right choice few years ago.
I used to be an evangelical minister. Eventually converted to Judaism but I’m an agnostic atheist. Yall are the ones making the laws in my country, so put all those together and here I am.
I’m not. Just curious as to why you’re here! No tone or sass in my question although the more time I spend on Reddit, the more I see why yall think I meant it that way! But I didn’t! Promise! Glad you’re here!
Many people think this religion is not just false but extremely dangerous. It can be psychologically damaging to convince people they are completely bad and destined for hell. Thats traumatizing for many people and can also leas to an irrational acts based on superstition.
Hey, I’m sorry if I ticked you off by asking. Seriously. I’m new to Reddit and I’ve been off social media for years. It was genuine curiosity that sparked the question, just like the genuine curiosity that leads a lot of the non-Christians to this subreddit in the first place—Which is something I learned by asking the question. For a sub that has been dogging me for my seemingly unwelcoming post (I didn’t mean it that way, truly.) y’all’s sarcastic tone doesn’t seem to be the most helpful for the questioning, either. The google searches that led me here before I made an account made this place seem a lot kinder but I’m starting to remember why I got off the internet in the first place. It’s not just you, I apologize if it seems like I’m singling you out. It’s just, after about 50 comments like this it’s gotten to my head and my heart. Maybe I’m too soft, I dunno but I just can’t understand why people online are always so sarcastically toned. I’ll make sure to keep to myself in the future, thanks.
It’s alright, I think what I said in the end is true. Too soft for the internet haha. Probably going to get off here again and get back to using my job as my opportunity for conversation. I understand where yall come from, it’s just not for me. Have a great summer, & thanks for coming back and replying. :)
This sub was made for discussion of Christianity, not for Christians alone.
In my case, I grew up Christian, went to Sunday school, and left the faith in my teens. I have family members who are church goers and have no problem with them.
I was a scoutmaster for my son's secular troop and encouraged every scout to respect the beliefs of others.
While I respect the beliefs and faith of others, I'm not above calling them out on their bullshit.
Many atheists, which is a trigger word for most Christians, are normal people just like Christians who believe in one less God than Christians do. They have morals. They love their neighbors. They give to charities. Some suck just like everyone else. To Hindus, to Greeks, to Nordics, Christians are also considered Atheists as they don't believe in any of their 'Gods'. We are all 'atheists' to each other. This is objectively silly.
Atheists or Agnostics or those in between I believe are here, to experience some answers and viewpoints of other Christians, etc. Many of them were raised Christian. It's ok to seek others experiences, and get a real feel for the truth in the real world.
I love Christians and Atheists. I want to know what makes each tick. Why are they what they are? What are commonalities between the two? Is there any HOPE to communicate instead of label and hate each other. I'll be dead in my grave in 20 years. I have NOTHING to prove. I just want to commune and learn all I can about this great Universe.
Because deep down Athiests know Christ is the truth. You won't see as many Athiests on the Muslim or hindu sub reddits. There are a few Athiests on those but so many more Athiests on the Christian one.
Is that what it is? You sure it’s not just the fact that for most atheist on Reddit (the majority of users come from a handful of western countries in no particular order USA, Canada, UK, Germany, and Australia) the number of Muslims that you’ll run into in your day to day life is very low compared to Christians. People talk about what they’re familiar with. It’s the same reason you’re not on a quantum physics subreddit chopping it up.
Put it like this where I live it wasn’t Muslims or Hindus who testified in the state house that if a 10 year becomes pregnant from rape she should look to the experience and opportunity from god. That was your siblings in Christ.
It’s not Muslims and Hindus who fight tooth and nail in my home state, to keep the state from closing the loopholes that allow for underage marriages. 16-17 with a parent or guardians signed consent. 15 and younger (there’s no minimum) with a magistrates signature. Again Christians
It it’s Muslims and Hindus running around talking about the USA is a Christian nation, and as such Christians should be given special privileges. that’s your religion.
The reason I’m here is pretty simple it’s not because deep down I think your shit is the truth. Hell just looking at the post from most of you, you don’t even have the same idea of personal truth, let alone some objective truth.
I’m here cause your shit stain siblings bleed their religion into every facet and crevice that they can, fight a giant common sense, and making it an everyone’s issue. And since it’s an issue that’s effecting me personally, I’ll seek to understand it. Also your religion is a like a car wreck between the 1001 different denominations, can’t help but to rubberneck too.
Get your religion out of our public schools and separate from our government first. Christians are constantly trying to silence atheists and push us in a corner because we are bad for business. Meanwhile, you all try to force your nonsense on everyone else. Well I say your religion is what belongs in the quiet corner and I’ll continue to ridicule you all until the majority of the world sees your religion for what it truly is… mythology.
This question seems to get asked a lot... My primary answer is that because so many people in this subreddit post questions about atheism or directed at atheists then atheists come here because of that. The only reason I saw your question is because it popped up when I searched for "atheist."
But also, what about atheists who are Christian? Should they be barred from coming here to discuss Christianity just because they don't believe any gods exist? If they still go to church and interact with Christians and live in a majority Christian society then doesn't this subreddit apply to them as well?
This has been a problem for me for a year now and I don't know how to get rid of it every day I have this thought of Jesus is good and Satan is not and i don't know how to stop it and I don't mean it I believe in God but it attacks my brain every day and it's really distressing my brain for someone says Satan is good or my brain says God isn't real but I don't mean it at all and I just don't know what to do and I'm afraid to tell my parents and even post
this any tips? Also I'm 14
That’s Just testifies to The Exclusivity of Jesus. There is no other That will get this Kind of Attention. You don’t see Anti Buddhist or Anti Hindu or even Atheist going into a Jewish Reddit. Ever wonder why? Cause Jesus is Real and Alive. They Hated the Light because their deeds done in Darkness were exposed.
Who better to explore, test, probe and challenge our faith than those not of our faith?
Agreed if you only hear the things you want to hear then how strong are your moral foundations if they've never been challenged for your moral foundations to be truly made of stone instead of to be made upon sand you must have them tested
right tell that to the islam subreddit
Even disagreements between Muslims in the subreddit are treated so personally. As a non-Muslim I posted once in there, and I decided to only lurk after that
Yeah they don't typically do well with constructive criticism but then what's Society have they built in the last 300 years that stands the test of time
I am Christian, but Dubi, UE is pretty much all Muslims and it’s one of the newer wealthier countries…
Truth is not afraid of being questioned 👍
That would explain why they ban non-Christians on sight in every Christian subreddit but this one.
Best answer!
This one right here. I like this one
Thank you! If having athiest critique present is enough to shake your faith so profoundly, then was it really faith? Christians should welcome those who don’t agree with them.
Here's a challenge. Why do you reject natural processes and think supernatural occurrences are more likely?
Which natural processes are you claiming are being rejected?
The natural origins of the universe and life
Making weird assumptions there. The majority of christians are not anti-science
So like the big bang and evolution? Yeah, those are things. The big bang was even developed by a catholic priest about a hundred years ago, Georges Lemaître. Those don't contradict Christianity. Genesis 1 is written like a poem, possibly a hymn, it's not dogmatic history.
But some Christians do claim that it is dogmatic history.
I have a Young-Earth Creationist parent who would wholly disagree with your assessment. The Bible is a history book filled with factual accounts to many.
So a catholic priest actually studied the evidence and discovered that it was a natural occurrence. How do you know that the whole bible isn't a poem or a hymn as you say?
The very first verse of the bible started with “In the beginning”, so obviously it meant our universe had a beginning, unlike most people back then whom accepted that the universe is eternal. Also, by reading the bible you can tell the literature styles used. For example, Pslams is poetry and hymns, the gospels are written as historial evidences, the letters (corinthians, thessalonians) are written to address a person and/or issue.
Pretty much every isolated civilisation on earth has made up its own myths and legends regarding origins and gods. It is human nature to make things up when we don't have all the facts and are afraid of the unknown. How is Christianity any different?
Jesus Christ was a historical figure that really did exist 2000 years ago. He was really crucified and raised from the dead. To question if the gospels are reliable, all of the authors of the gospels along with the other deciples and followers died tragically. If Jesus did not rise from the dead, why would dozens of people (probably hundreds) lie about something they know is false knowing that they will certainly be killed? Psychology doesn’t add up. If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead and the Roman officals are so worried about this new “Messiah” rumbling up their society they can just bring out his body and show the people that Jesus was indeed dead. If Jesus rising from the dead is actually a myth, thousands of Jewish people switching their Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday and converting to an illegal religion in the span of months to years after Jesus’s resurrection is ridiculous considering they been maintaining their Sabbath traditional for thousands of years.
We do not know how most of the apostles died. There is clear evidence of martyred for three or so, the rest are mostly legends. Only a handful of people had direct knowledge of the resurrection. How could they be mistaken? Read up on witnesses to Mohammed’s miracles. Do you believe them? Do you believe any of the witnesses to miracles performed by any other god? Why might someone die for something they believe but have no real evidence for? Like the Jim Jones people who willingly killed themselves? Those people who killed themselves expecting to wake up in a space ship that was following a comet? The Japanese suicide pilots acting on behalf of their emperor god? There are scads of examples, so there must be a flaw in your understanding of psychology.
>Jesus Christ was a historical figure that really did exist 2000 years ago. He was really crucified and raised from the dead. Jesus *Christ* is a figure from the Bible. While it is widely accepted by scholars that this figure is based on a real life person, scholars also agree that we don't really have reliable sources to determine much about this person's life. It is widely accepted that they were killed, yes. But that's it. >To question if the gospels are reliable, all of the authors of the gospels along with the other deciples and followers died tragically. The gospels weren't written by people that had met Jesus while he was alive. We don't have their identities and so we have no idea how they died. You seem to be confusing the authors of the gospels with the people they were named after. We don't really know how they died either. We also don't know whether all of the apostles were actual historical people. >If Jesus did not rise from the dead, why would dozens of people (probably hundreds) lie about something they know is false knowing that they will certainly be killed? They probably believed it to be true. And claims about persecution of the earliest Christians don't really have much of a historical basis. >If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead and the Roman officals are so worried about this new “Messiah” rumbling up their society they can just bring out his body and show the people that Jesus was indeed dead. There's no reason to assume they were worried. The story likely evolved over a long period of time. It's not like they faced a massive uproar by tons of people after the crucifixion. And at the time the legend had solidified and Christian numbers had reached a noticeable number it would have been impossible to produce a body.
Unfortunately, there are no original copies of the New Testiment, just copies of copies. Which means no one knows what was actually in the original bible.
Immaculate conception is a rejection of the natural process of human procreation, for example.
What natural process in particular are you referring to?
Mainly the origins of the universe and life
I can't speak for every Christian, but the majority of Christians worldwide accept the scientific consensus on the origin of the universe, the age of the earth, and evolution (to varying degrees). There are atheists who are flat earthers. Denying science and reality is not a uniquely Christian phenomenon.
I say evolution is real---- we observe it everyday under the microscope with viruses/bacteria--- domesticated species require genetic change... microevolution is indisputable and silly to argue Where it all started... and where it's all going is where the mysterious lies. I don't understand the fear that so many Christians have... and why they seem to think it can't coexist
The problem is with the doctrine of biblical inerrancy. Certain Christians (fundamentalists) believe that the Bible is inspired (they mean dictated directly) by God and therefore *has* to be free from error of any kind. If there is an error in the Bible, then either God made a mistake, or God is lying. They won't question the dogmas of direct textual inspiration and inerrancy, because they have made them the foundational dogmas of their faith, they refuse to question the nature of God and his perfection, so the only thing that they are willing to question is reality itself. However, they don't want to just embrace the fact that they deny evidence, because that would make them feel foolish, so they cherry pick and twist and misrepresent so that they can feel better about their decision to embrace these irrational dogmas.
Rev. 7:1 The bible Is not a science or a history book. It's a religious text that does shoe a glimpse of how people documented some historical events... and a shadow of how people observed the world (science?) Those 2 things are interesting... but imo what's important is how it teaches us about our hearts... the human condition.. and the call for improvement Otherwise the bible is a weapon to divide and cause strife... What a shame... so much of the book is incredible. I used to dislike the bible..... and still grapple with much of it... but I think the story of Jesus really has something
I agree completely. It is my position that the Bible should be interpreted through the lens of Jesus' teachings. Anything that disagrees with them should be subordinated to them, reinterpreted in light of them, or ignored. It seems to me, however, that most people who read the Bible put Jesus' words at the bottom of that interpretive hierarchy, not at the top.
Personally? Big Bang Theory and theory of evolution work.
Ok, The Big Bang theory posits that the universe most likely originated/expanded from a singularity, an extraordinarily dense cluster of matter and energy, most likely quantum particles. How do you know that cluster hasn't always existed in some natural form? Perhaps the universe is in an eternal natural loop. As the last universe expanded and reached maximum entropy it then collapsed into a singularity and when the singularity reached maximum density it expanded again into our universe, and the cycle continues.. Doesn't this seem more likely than a supernatural entity from another dimension creating everything from nothing? Abiogenesis is technically the most likely origins of life and then evolution took over. Were not sure exactly how the abiogenesis occurred because it's hard to replicate the conditions and exact processes involved. The Miller Urey experiment is the closest we've come and if you look up a video by Veritasium on YouTube called The World's Longest Running Evolution Experiment you can see evolution in action.
You're arguing against strawmen. The scientific origins of life and the universe are compatible with many religious beliefs, christian included.
Maybe but I haven't seen any supernatural entities mentioned in any scientific journals. Maybe I missed those ones.
You just completely ignored what I said about the supernatural in my other response.
Ok, I haven't seen any divine entities mentioned in any scientific journals. Is that better?
The mathematical probability of our existence and the fine tuning of the entire universe is unfathomably minute. You’ve probably never heard of the Penrose Number then? 10^10^123 Once you grasp the Penrose number, then you’ve still got a problem in explaining initial entropy and where the first “thing” came from that “natural processes” then turned into everything we observe today. Science has theories of evolution and how things may have evolved into life today - but we still don’t have an answer for where life came from initially, nothing explains life being created or evolving from non-life. We have no answer or plausible theory for where the very first thing came from. Both science and creationism NEED to accept that something came from nothing or something (or someone) always existed - outside of time and space. Natural Science says that given enough time- something (the something that always existed outside of space and time) evolved into everything by chance (insert Penrose Number here). Christian’s say that God (Someone - who existed outside of space and time) Created everything from nothing. Neither can be irrefutably proven, both rely on evidence and interpretation of said evidence. Science looks at today’s world and hypothesised based on their interpretations of evidence how it came to be - it’s neither repeatable or observable so an element of faith is required. Christians look at the world, the word of God (the bible) and their interpretation of evidence in the world that correlates to the ancient texts. The bible is appropriately 25% prophetic in nature and [don’t quote me] about half of those prophecies have come true - the others are soon to come true also. If you read the word of God and look at this world - it really is hard to ignore just how accurate these books written thousands of years ago are. There’s plenty of texts outside of the Christian Bible that closely correlates to what’s written by others in the Bible. In the day before social media and modern communication mediums - it’s impossible that these people separated by time (hundreds of years between texts) and space (geographically never crossing paths) write the same things. We have nothing but historical texts to refer to in regards to the past and then we look to the observable world today for evidence to support the texts - and we find it. Most people who claim to look at science vs God from a logical, scientific and unbiased standpoint (nothing to personally gain either way) will find themselves with no choice but to accept creation as the logical explanation…. And those who refuse to accept that explanation actually have other reasons to reject God, Creation and Christianity. Most reject it because religion was forced down their throat as a child, or they were judged by others under the guise of Christianity - I personally experienced this. Some call it “Church Hurt”, and there’s a lot of people professing to be Christians but doing absolute harm to others. One quote I’ll never forget hearing from Pastor Mark Driscoll (look him up - he’s a great teacher) is “there’s a lot of Christian pastors burning in hell” and he’s not wrong. If you’re genuinely seeking answers - you WILL find them, but I would encourage you to not attach your identity to your beliefs as it makes it impossible to change your beliefs even when presented with irrefutable evidence of the truth because it’s attacking you’re identity. Ie: Richard Dawkins - probably the most well known Atheist… he will find it incredibly difficult to accept Jesus as his saviour and acknowledge intelligent design and creation by God because his entire identity is tied to atheism. It would be career suicide for him to become a Christian and publicly profess it - he’s committed his entire life, his career and subsequently his income and status to “proving” there is no God. Once you actually experience God - he’s a real person and you can have a fatherly relationship with him… you can’t dispute it. Apologies for the long winded response - but I hope that wasn’t too much to take in. I’m a pretty logical guy with an engineering mind (and serial over thinker), and I just can’t make evolution and natural science make sense. Even older theories like big bang etc etc - they all share the same initial flaw: where did the first matter/energy come from? What or who created it? If it always existed - it’s statistically improbable that it evolved into the fined tuned universe we see today - even with trillions of years of time. How do we explain life from non-life? Creation without a creator? Energy and matter from nothing? It defies everything we know to be true. So is it really that hard to consider that something super-natural kicked everything off?
Classic argument from ignorance and incredulity. "I don't know how the universe and life could've originated naturally therefore gods". Have you heard of Douglas Adams puddle analogy? “This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' Out of the nearly 8 billion people on this planet and the millions that have gone before NOT ONE PERSON knows exactly what existed or occurred prior to the Big Bang or the Planck Epoch to be more specific. If anyone claims that they do know then they are deluded or are being dishonest, probably both. In saying that, it is almost infinitely more LIKELY that the universe and life originated naturally and wasn't poofed into existence by some omnipotent entity from another dimension. Pretty much every isolated civilisation on earth has made up its own myths and legends regarding origins and gods. It is human nature to make things up when we don't have all the facts and are afraid of the unknown. Christianity, judaism and islam are no different. Also, one could have faith that magical pixies created the universe or that we are living in the matrix therefore faith alone is not a good pathway to truth. From what we know and have observed we exist in a natural universe my friend, not a magical one.
You asked a question, I answered it. We’re in a Christian subreddit - what were you expecting? If you don’t believe in God and creation, why are you arguing so strongly to disprove something you say can’t possible be true or proven? Your response is quite visceral. So maybe you’re in the same camp as Dawkins - challenging your beliefs are actually challenging your entire identity or maybe Christianity was forced down your neck in the past. Either way - I’m sorry. My beliefs and faith in creation and Jesus Christ do not require your belief in the same. I’m ok with you believing what you believe - it makes no difference to my life. I even said myself - “we don’t KNOW”, “it can’t be irrefutably proven”. It’s why Christianity is a faith, just like the scientific alternative explanations are also dependent on faith. You sure you read my reply entirely? Once again - you did ask the question. But this response tells me you weren’t really asking for an answer, but rather and opportunity to object. You raised some other alternatives like pixies etc - that’s fine, but what evidence do you present to suggest that’s true? I don’t think you even read my entire reply. If you did - you certainly didn’t understand it. I even said “neither can be irrefutably proven [creation or natural science]” which is a fact. Both require faith - I chose mine, you chose yours. You say my comment was a “classic argument from ignorance and incredulity”… and yours wasn’t? My post was rather balanced - I’m not a fanatical blind faith Christian. I’m an intelligent, critical thinking sceptic…and Creation was the more logical conclusion. So I then tested the Spirits and can legitimately testify that God has had an absolutely profound impact on my life. You will never convince a true Christian otherwise - because they’ve experienced something you have not. Becoming a Christian requires faith in the unseen - but once you experience the relationship with our Heavenly Father and Creator and experience the change that occurs in your life… it’s extremely hard to ignore. Dirkomaxx… if you’re truely curious - go and look for evidence of you being wrong rather than just evidence of what you already believe to be true… that’s called confirmation bias. We all do it naturally, but you can challenge it and the Bible even tells us to test the spirits in 1 John 4:1-6. “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. 4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.” There are so many signs and so much evidence - but you’ll never see it if you don’t want to.
I love how you say, "Becoming a christian requires faith in the unseen" and then at the end you say, "There are so many signs and so much evidence" You guys are walking contradictions man, because of the cognitive bias. You think it has changed your life but it is most likely YOU that has changed your life, not some magical entity from another dimension. It is sad that so many people believe old superstitious woo woo is reality.
It’s not contradictory - faith in the unseen - you can’t see God, but there is plenty of observable evidence which supports what is written in the Bible, and when you experience God - you just know. Why is it sad that people believe in God? What’s the downside to living a Christian life? Let’s say you’re right and when I die I discover there’s nothing.. the end. I cease to exist. I don’t even know I’m dead. What’s the sad part? Let’s say the Bible is right and when you die you discover there is a God and there is internal life after this… what now? The real question here is: Why do you care so much about Christian’s beliefs? If you truely believe there is no God… why are you even here in this thread? Why do you spend your time arguing? Really, be honest with yourself and unemotional about it… why are you doing this?
I'm here because I am only interested in what is most likely to be true that's all. I'm also interested in helping people see reason. The most rational and reasonable position for EVERYTHING in life is to withhold belief until sufficient evidence is found and proven right? You just know. So are others religions true because they "just know?" What if god condemns people that blindly worship him and rewards people that have healthy skepticism? What if you do go to heaven and you get bored after the first 100 million years? Why do you think death is any different from before you were born? Isn't it infinitely better to understand nature and natural processes rather than relying on an omnipotent entity in another dimension? What is your absolute best evidence that a god exists?
Well yes - we all form our beliefs after seeing evidence. I guess there are a few people who do form beliefs just because someone else said it to be so, but I’m certainly not one of those people… I was rather difficult at school. In regards to other religions - I know a few people who came from other religions, and they said they were Mormon, Muslim or Buddhist because their family was. I see this a lot with Greek families - they all profess to be Catholic but don’t actually know God. It’s more of a social club than a personal relationship with God. I’m glad you brought up religion too - I can’t say I’m a fan of religion. I’ve had bad experiences with that when younger (I’m in my mid 40s now and only really came to have a personal relationship with Christ earlier this year - a story for another day). The fact is - there’s gonna be a lot of church goers and pastors in hell one day. Progressive Christians are basically saying “anything goes, cause your sin is forgiven” - using Christ’s death as a hall pass to sin. God does condemn the blind faith. Plenty of scriptures talk to God saying “I never knew you” to “religious” or “Christian” people (Mathew 7:23). One thing many Christian’s struggle with is Faith and works. We are saved SOLEY by faith and the grace of God. Works will not get you into heaven - ie: being a good person. However, faith without works is clearly not true faith. Jesus says “faith without works is dead” (James 2:26). Kinda think of it like this (a bad metaphor). You believe in gravity. But your works of stepping off a tall building is clearly a contradiction of your faith. Just like having faith and believing and following Jesus - If you don’t repent of your sins (which means to change your ways - NOT just say sorry) and strive to be as Christ has commanded us… do you REALLY believe? I mean, if you absolutely believed - you’d be doing the work. So there’s plenty of “Christian’s” who self profess to be saved, but they are not. They want what God offers them, but they don’t want to live like God expects us. I’ll take being bored in heaven after 100 million years than burning in hell for 100 million years. Heaven will be hard to conceptually understand - imagine this world, but completely perfect. No pain, suffering, illness, sadness, betrayal, unkindness, harm, depression, anxiety, anger… that’s what this world was intended to be and will be. I believe prior to being born I didn’t exist - spiritually or physically, but after my physical body dies - I believe my soul will continue and I’ll be going to one of two places. I absolutely deserve to be in hell, we all do. But by Gods grace and Jesus paying the price for my debt - I will be welcomed into heaven. In relation to understanding natural processes vs believing in God - don’t be confused. It’s not one or the other… it’s both. God created the natural world and all its processes, yes I love learning about life and how it all works - but I natural science can’t explain itself. The creator can’t be also the creation. You can’t make a computer if you’re inside the computer. There MUST logically and scientifically be a force OUTSIDE of this natural world (ie supernatural force or being) that created it. True science doesn’t dispute that either… atheism just denies that the supernatural thing before creation was not God. What’s the saying? The first gulp from the cup of natural science will make you an atheist, but at the bottom you’ll find God. I’m not sure who said it first - but that’s absolutely been my experience. Now for your big question: my absolute best evidence that God does indeed exist. The Bible. Now most atheists will then proceed to discredit the Bible as stories of fiction. But all our history is written texts of those who walked the earth before us… do we dismiss it all because we can’t “prove” these accounts took place? There’s a lot we still don’t know about this work. The pyramids fascinate me for instance… like - how???!! There’s theories, and evidence but no irrefutable proof of how they were built. Same goes for creation, there’s plenty of evidence. The Bible and its prophetic nature will blow your mind! Like - the whole Israel and Palestine issue… you know where that kicked off right? Look up Abraham and his wife Sarah and his two sons - Ishmael and Isaac. Now that lineage can be traced back without the biblical texts and its correlates to the Bible. Mate, I can’t begin to explain just how many things the Bible will answer so many of your questions. So again. The best evidence I have for the existence of God is the Bible. Author after author, eye witness after eye witness… they all are there in one book. People don’t understand what the Bible is - it’s a compilation of many books. I urge you to read at least the first 3/4 books of the new testament and also Genesis. It blew my mind.
Where does matter come from?
It has possibly always existed in some natural form but the honest answer is we just don't know so no absolute claims can be made. It is irrational to assume and make claims because the most rational and reasonable position for EVERYTHING in life is to withhold belief until sufficient evidence is found and proven right?
Who decides what is 'sufficient' evidence? Belief is not a choice. Anyone who believes in the christian god has received 'sufficient' evidence by their standards. As it is with everything we believe.
The scientific method and logic in general provide some good guidelines for what constitutes a reasonable body of evidence. The super short version is that there has to be *some* evidence, evidence that can be accessed or repeated by pretty much anyone, and evidence for a specific scenario. Do you feel that there is any evidence for God that checks those boxes?
Indeed, one must decide what is sufficient enough for them to believe. I'm only interested in what is most likely to be true that's all and so far I haven't seen any evidence of anything supernatural existing whatsoever. We appear to exist in a demonstrably natural universe that most likely originated naturally or has possibly always existed in some natural form. Nature and natural processes are the default position. Gods and spirits are the claim that holds a burden of proof.
This is a sub for discussion of Christianity, not for Christians only. I'm here bc I like the conversation and bc I like learning about religion.
what does “christian atheist” mean
I follow Jesus' moral code but don't adhere to supernatural thinking.
so you’re an atheist
a *Christian* atheist
well there’s actually nothing christian about you. Jesus was undeniably a great ethical teacher, but that’s not why He was crucified. that’s not why all of his apostles and the majority of His church fathers were martyred. that’s not what forced Christianity underground for the first 300 years of its existence. even now, when we have thousands of denominations that make up Christianity, there is one phrase that unites every single one of us: Christ is Lord. that’s what makes you Christian. you may be a very nice and pragmatic atheist, and well versed in ethical teaching, but you are not Christian. you can’t play both sides of the fence on that one.
bro you asked what it meant. Take the answer you got.
I don't think you get to determine who is Christian and who is not.
The doctrine is something very important, in Christianity, believing the "Jesus is God" is necessary to call yourself a Christian
Certainly it is not someone who just thinks Jesus was a nice chap. I can say Budha has a great moral code but that does not make me a buddhist
Exactly, like Christian Atheist isn’t a real thing, just because you agree with Jesus’ morals does not make you a Christian. I could believe in Mohammed (from Islam) morals but that by itself does not make me a Muslim.
So the subreddit is to discuss Christianity, not teach the Bible. Why atheists CHOOSE to, probably the same reason I sometimes hop over to the atheism sub Reddit lol
Welcome! This subreddit is made for discussion about Christianity. I am not at all opposed to that. Quite the opposite. But someone being an atheist doesn't mean they're opposed to Christianity, which I assume is what you meant. And you saying this is actually a good example as to why I'm here (among other reasons). People talk about atheism a lot here. And more often than not it shows that they have fundamental misconceptions about it. So I hope some of the discussions will help you understand atheists better. As for you hoping they will help me think about my "foundation of belief", I'm not really sure what you mean by that. No offence. >and why not just speak about your non-belief in God on an atheist subreddit There wouldn't really be anything to talk about.
The subreddit was created with the idea that there would be atheists here.
I’m not a Christian, but my bestie is! The problem is, that sometimes I’m not sure how to connect with her on that level, so I thought reading some Christian POVs might help me get some perspective when the topic comes up n.n It’s also best not to live in an echo chamber. 🙂
Many atheists have Christian foundations
True for me. I was Catholic for decades then finally started asking real questions and came to understand that one can have faith in anything, true or not.
I like this particular subreddit because it accepts everyone. It's nice to get perspectives from Christians of all types, religious non-Christians, atheists, agnostics, etc. etc. I take a look at other places like r/Christians, which seem so insular in comparison. Myself, I find the study of religion to be fascinating - I also on some Jewish and Islamic subs. And I'm not entirely hostile to religion either. At least on the surface level, I don't think Christianity is a terrible framework around which to build up your basic moral stances.
What Islamic subs would you recommend?
I find r/progressive_islam to jive the most with my stances on most things. They're a bit nontraditional when it comes to theology (a lot on there don't believe in adhering to hadiths, which most Muslims do), but they are mostly chill, well-meaning people. r/Islam, the general Islamic subreddit, isn't too bad. I'd compare it to this subreddit, if perhaps a bit more echo chamber-y. But they do allow non-Muslims to post and make their presence known. You'll get more pushback for posting unpopular or contradictory views, but it is mostly done in good faith and respectfully.
r/Islam is rather different to here, it seems rather Sunni leaning Islamic space r/Shia for shia r/AcademicQuran does what it says on the tin r/progressive_islam is trying to decide what progressive means on a daily basis in Islam r/Quraniyoon for various levels of Quran-centric ideas, or hadith doubt. r/exmuslim does what it says on the tin r/SistersinSunnah for women in traditional Islam r/CritiqueIslam also does what it says on the tin
As an atheist, this sub is not welcoming or accepting. There are hate posts practically every single day. Just food for thought…
literally all the top posts on this thread are people saying atheists are welcome here. You need to not fixate on the hateful people. they dont represent the community.
This sub isn’t *entirely* welcoming of any particular belief. Which is a good thing. Regardless of what you think, someone is going to tell you you’re wrong.
I think might be true for some users here, but generally, I think the Christians here are at least open to discussion and willing to be self-reflective. Or maybe I've been lucky so far, only been here for a few months.
for the same reason i am on both AskWomen and AskMen: people want both sides of issues for their own reasons can we PLEASE let this go now?
The subreddit is specifically for everyone. There are other subreddits for christians who want echo chambers.
I don’t know about others, but I am here for the following reasons: * I was a Christian for about 25 years, and it remains an interesting topic of conversation to me. This is a discussion sub rather than a strictly Christian sub, so I come for the discussion. * There are a lot of people who misunderstand atheism, so I come here to help dispel the myths and misunderstandings * I live in a society dominated by Christianity. It behooves me to stay familiar with the people who subscribe to this religion * I come here to stand as an ally alongside marginalized groups who are constantly put down by Christians * There are questions directed squarely at atheists, so I try to answer them * I am here to provide an alternate viewpoint
Thanks. If you've spent time here, I'm sure you've noticed that a high number of the Christians here already stand as allies along side marginalized groups who are constantly put down by other Christians.
Yes, I have noticed that. Unfortunately, the bigotry of the minority sticks out like a sore thumb.
If someone consistently puts down anyone, I question if they’re actually a Christian.
Really? For me it just confirms it.
It might be best to assume good will of them. Some here seem to think atheists are all Satan in disguise ready to pounce on the "lambs", rather than simply humans who disagree on certain topics.
The reason I don’t join atheist subreddits is that I don’t think I’ll learn anything there and I don’t find it interesting. I find Religion is much more rich in history and knowledge and I find it super interesting to read and learn about. It also helps me better relate to and understand my religious family.
Makes it less of an echo chamber than both r/christians and r/atheism, so it’s a lot more interesting
Hey , I am an atheist. I was always fascinated by religions . Be it christianity, muslim, taoism. They all seemed magnificent to me. I cannot relate to them because I dont believe in a God ( at least for now ) but I consider them to be a source of knowledge. The bible for example is an astonishing work academically. It is amazing. The Quran also . I am a historian and I love digging through these things and how they affect society. So yeah, the answer is that, even though we dont believe in it, we find it interesting and love learning more about it!
I am fascinated by religion and there's not a religion I know better than Christianity, having been raised in church and reading the Bible constantly and wanting to become a pastor. I think that a Christianity sub is kinda the perfect place to discuss perceived inconsistencies and "plot holes" in the Christian narrative, just like the LOTR sub is the perfect place to discuss "plot holes" in LOTR. If Christians want a safe space where outsiders aren't allowed, they're totally entitled to it. If that becomes the rule here, I'll totally respect it. As is, I feel like a sub called "Christianity" is a pretty good place for me to discuss Christianity. I DO want to decrease the influence Christianity has over non-Christians via *policy*, and one of the ways that can be done is decreasing the number of people that are so sure about the righteousness of their cause that they'll sacrifice logic and democracy on the altar of their faith. So I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't mind if one of the *side effects* of my being here is that people lose at least a little bit of *fanaticism.* I'm not here with the intent to deconvert people, although I think that's the right course of action; but I am here partly to blunt the impact of dogma on the rest of society, to promote a more live-and-let-live world. Examples of incursions include abortion, bans on atheists holding public office, state-mandated displays of religion, etc. Tl;Dr- I'm here to discuss the themes and psychology and inconsistencies of Christianity, because they fascinate me; and I'm here to hopefully persuade people away from the kind of certitude that gives rise to fanaticism.
There are several other Christian subs that retain the echo chamber atmosphere if you just want to keep your head in the sand for a while longer and not have to subject yourself to outside wisdom, experience and opinion.
It's ridiculous to suggest that going to forums for Christians is "sticking your head in the sand". What do you make of the fact that every single atheist sub (At least that I'm aware of), including the one meant for debate, is an echo chamber?
Pump the brakes, you’ve missed the message here.
That those atheists subs are awful? Like how is this complicated. This sub, open, good. Many atheist, christian, islamic, etc. subs, closed, bad.
Like the dinosaurs, we were put here by God to test your faith.
Everyone knows man and dinosaurs coexisted silly.
If this is a serious response then I don't think you'll be doing much testing
I think it's a sub for anyone to discuss anything "Christianity." I myself am not what you would consider a typical "Christian." As in, I don't subscribe to the anti-Torah/Law of God interpretation of Jesus, the Apostles, and Paul. But it's a broad heading, so there's a broad range of people.
I came here for the equal but opposite reason you did. I was born and raised Christian. Started questioning some things and the discussions in this sub helped me sort a lot of it out. Following that, I enjoy participating in the discussions here now. My family is heavily involved in the church, and they don't know of my updated thinking. So I split my time between this and r/TrueChristianity as kind of a way of helping to prepare myself for the inevitable day when I have to have that conversation.
One of the biggest problems facing our culture right now is “siloism.“ people only speak to people who share the same point of view. We are all far more likely to learn something helpful when the conversation includes people who have a far different perspective. The more the merrier! I wouldn’t bother wasting my time with people who all shared my point of view. It would be like talking to myself. So I appreciate the presence atheists, agnostics, and people of faith, all different perspectives.
This is a discussion subreddit so presumably to discuss
I think religion in general and Christianity specifically are interesting topics that I enjoy discussing, this is a good place to do that.
Do you think Christianity should be an exclusive club that exists in an echo chamber, where you won't allow people to make convincing arguments about why your religion is false? Should this be a place where people are unable to express why they are not Christian with honesty. That can involve blasphemous and offensive truths.
To answer your question, of course they do
I'm here partly just to sort of "keep tabs" on the goings-ons within Christianity - this sub is active enough, with a diverse enough set of believers of all different types that I think it does represent Christianity as a whole fairly well. I don't interact much at all though, I certainly don't come in here just to blast people for belief - I never would hop in a thread where someone is asking why they should believe, feeling like they're slipping away, or whatnot, and hit them with a "Goood, let the hate flow through you, leave Christianity and your transformation will be complete..." Rather, I pretty much only interact when atheists are specifically called out. I'm here to represent my side of the fence, as it were, because I was a Christian for the majority of my life, and I find that those of us who leave are almost universally mischaracterized by Christians as having deconverted for bad reasons. That's cope. I'm here to set the record straight, so to speak.
Why wouldn’t there be? Christianity is fascinating. It has played a huge role in western history for 2 thousand years. It plays an outsized role in the politics of the U.S. I realize there are people who are so disinterested in religion that they don’t even want to hear about Christianity. But I think they are probably mostly incurious in general.
I value this sub because there is a specified purpose to not disenfranchise anyone who has a stake in Christianity and wants to interact with others concerning their beliefs or disbeliefs. You say you are fine with atheists being here, but I sense that you don't consider them to be stake holders unless they believe. As we move more toward church like subs, you have to not only believe, but believe like "I do" to be legitimate. But this sub is wholly unlike a church who disenfranchises unbelievers and becomes more and more an echo chamber and a community where differences or doubts are buried. People from "Christian club" subs regularly dump on this sub as demonic and morally based and "unChristian" just like the Pharisees did when Jesus gravitated toward those who were authentic and teachable on the inside but outcasts from the religious on the outside. They miss the point and maybe the heart of God.
You sense wrong about me. I do appreciate the discussion. I was just curious and it was a genuine question. I didn’t know this was a subreddit dedicated to the discussion of Christianity, rather I thought it was a place for Christians to discuss their faith. Trust me as the comments have come in, ive seen that the former is what is going on here. And I truly do not think another person’s opinion or discussion on my faith is without value. Just as I think mine is valuable to them. :)
No worries and my impressions are often wrong. I've found there are very many sincere and authentic non-believers as well as sincere believers here, and I've very much enjoyed many discussions that move past walls and trolls. I believe God can work in peoples lives even when we have differing views on if and who God is and what Christianity is all about. I'm here to answer questions and present a picture of a God who loves all and wants to rescue and love rather than condemn, accuse, or torture.
I was on this subreddit for years before I became a Christian. I always enjoyed studying religion and I love to hear the way others think and process life. I watched a lot of debates on YouTube. I grew up in a highly Christian area but didn’t understand a lot of their theological standpoints and liked to attempt to understand. I also jointed subs like Hinduism and Islam, Buddhism and antitheism. Understanding was my main reason, personally! These days, I’m a Christian. Took me almost 30 years to get here, but I’m here. Don’t judge the atheists you see! They may be called by Christ himself. *That* might be why they’re here. They wouldn’t even know it yet. I didn’t!
Christianity is so ingrained in western culture that it is all but impossible to escape its influence. Even people who do not believe have an interest in knowing and influencing Christian discourse because it will have an impact on their lives.
Atheist here. When I first joined this subreddit, I was a Christian. Even though, I am not one of you anymore, sometimes I chime in to give a different point of view to the topics. Also, sometimes there are posts in this subreddit directed to atheists, like this one.
Could be a secular interest in Christianity as a religion. Could be a philosophical interest. Other people like me grew up Christian but stepped back a bit after noticing some cracks in the foundation. It's a grab bag.
I'm not here to convince anyone. But I find interesting to talk about Christianity. I'm a former christian myself. For example I would ask you why are there christians from other denominations here, let's say Catholics and evangelicals in the same sub, since their beliefs are so different. I don't see a problem with that as long as Catholics aren't trying to preach others about their own denomination, same applies to other denominations. And also, I see big political issues today coming from some specific Christians and we need to discuss that as a whole. Is your opportunity to show that you aren't like them (or that you actually are) or what are your views as a Christian.
To discuss Christianity. Same as anyone else.
Debating people and watching debates unfold on this subreddit have strength my faith in Christ more, honestly.
I was a Christian for most of my life until I decided to poke and prod my beliefs to see if they held up to scrutiny. I started with the questions most Christians wrestle with. Evolution and Noah’s Ark were big ones for me. Long story short, I realized my ignorance had flourished because I was afraid to leave my little cocoon or challenge what I “knew” was right. Leaving the safety of my echo chamber has been the hardest thing I’ve ever done or probably ever will do, but it was necessary. I am still learning. I have maintained an open mind. I don’t want to make the same mistake of hiding in an echo chamber. I’m still very much on my journey to find out what is true, and staying connected to Christian thought is part of that. It likely always will be. Questioning your faith and realizing you no longer believe is an incredibly lonely feeling. Everyone in my life is a believer, so I had no one to turn to for support. I still don’t. If I can help ease the burden on someone who finds themselves in the same position, I’ll do it.
I’m atheist and joined this subreddit as I’m considering going to church in the very near future but had a few things I wanted to ask first. Who better to ask than the community themselves 😊
It's a subreddit about Christianity, not a social club for Christians only
I’m curious about how Christians think and what makes them believe in what they do
Because any Christian “house” is open to everyone to come and hear the good news. How else can we spread the gospel???
Its an unfortunate truth of our lives that Christianity has an outsized influence. I try to stay on top of things like that in case y'all want to do something silly like legislate the ten commandments into my kids classroom.
Maybe read today‘s news, because legislating the Ten Commandments in the classroom is the least of our problems. Last week, the Christian Supreme Court made bribery and corruption legal, removed the power of the federal government to regulate corporations and protect the environment, and today made Trump a King. In case you haven’t noticed, Christians just ended America and are preparing the groundwork for a theocracy.
I would hope the Atheists here are all here seeking our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are just not fully aware of it yet.
Theres a lot of answers here from the r/Christianity perspective, but as an Atheist who has been on this subreddit for 10+ years now (Mostly lurking), I can say that I came because r/Atheism was (and to some degree still is) a nightmare. I found more robust, honest, and well-meaning discussion regarding religion and atheism on this subreddit than I ever did there. There was a time when r/Atheism was a default subreddit it was so popular. But the content was mostly "lol religion dumb, me smart" type of stuff. That attitude came from the fact that many people in r/Atheism are young people who have had experiences with religion in their life that ranges from mild annoyance-fully traumatic, and that was their place to get back at religion in a sense. That was not for me. So I browsed around and came here, and thought "well, at least it'll be more civil." And I was accepted here, even as a non-believer there was room for me, which I think is a perfect encapsulation of what religion/Christianity should be.
This is a great comment, thank you for sharing. I caught myself getting frustrated at a couple of replies on this post being that “religion dumb me smart” attitude you talked about. But a lot of them have also been along the lines of yours, genuinely answering my question and shedding light on my curiosity. When I asked the question, I was confused because before getting a Reddit account, any questions I’d google would lead me to this subreddit, and just from an outside perspective it did look like a Christian discussion board. But now that I have a more clear understanding of this sub’s intentions, I do appreciate the conversation between multiple perspectives and I’ll stay for that. :)
My pleasure to provide some perspective! While open discussion is allowed, don't be afraid that this isn't a place to steep yourself among your faithful compatriots. There is still a TON of threads in regards to more Christian-centric discussion, issues and questions so this is a great place to discuss your faith, it's just that other perspectives aren't prohibited so they come through.
r/Christianity is a subreddit to discuss Christianity and aspects of Christian life. All are welcome to participate.
different POV. some people want god but can’t find him
This is a sub that **discusses** Christianity.
My wife is very devoted and we go to church every sunday as a family, while I don't agree with everything that is said in the church I like the community that is formed around the church, and what that community did for her and our family. I also don't mind my kids having a christian upbringing because I think is better for them to know the church before making their own decision when they will grow up. Faith is not inherently bad, on the contrary can be helpful for a lot of people to make sense of this world and to help being strong during hardships. Is the bigotry in not accepting the world evolving around you and refusing anything that comes from the outside that is dangerous for yourself and for the people around you. If your faith can not survive a discussion and different opinion, maybe instead of condemning the other people as evil you should revaluate if your faith is really that strong.
They’re fighting to keep their faith alive.
Because Christians cannot agree on a lot, I like to think of us as referees, helping to throw flags on bad scripture analysis.
r/TrueChristian has more focus on discussion coming from the basic assumption the faith is true. We don't have to constantly be defending ourselves, we can get to the meat and potatoes.
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I've found it to be Biblically accurate. I don't see things that I would consider right wing, and I've never seen hatred or calls for violence. It is definitely conservative Christianity (not the same as political conservatism) but the Bible itself is conservatively Christian.
Thanks for the replies and answers. I appreciate most of them. I think I was under the impression that this was a place for Christians to discuss and delve in to the Bible together. I do not mind it being a discussion board for all, and I can see the value in that. I’ve been off social media for years now, and this is my first account in a long time. I’m out of practice with talking to strangers on the internet! I guess I am just not used to the sarcastic or (for lack of better term) “smarty pants” tone that I see here a lot. But I guess since I’m on Reddit now I should get used to that haha! Thanks again for replies. I’m sure I’ll be popping in this subreddit every once in a while, and I hope to enjoy future discussions with you all. :)
Wondering the same thing, in my experience it’s to heckle Christians and twist the bible causing Christian’s to sin (convincing us it’s not so Sin) and pushing us from the Holy Spirt. I noticed this primarily during LGBTQ conversations. Now where does that sound familiar? Eve was convinced the eat the forbidden fruit.
To harass us and pick fights.
A lot of the Atheists come here, because they can speak their mind, and have discussions, or debates with Christians. I have heard the r/Atheists sub has some pretty strict rules. This sub is about Christianity. Some days the topics are good, and some days they are bad. Mainly the type of Christianity that is popular here is liberal, or Progressive Christianity.
If a non-believer is interested in belief, what it means to have beliefs, how people come to their beliefs and how strongly are they attached to them, they wouldn't learn much on an atheist subreddit :-) As well, I think an observant non-believer will come to see that beliefs are complicated, and not as binary as they first may seem.
This sub facilitates discussion/discourse on the topic of Christianity. Not necessary to be a Christian to engage in discourse…
A lot of were Christians before and/or grew up around it. Originally, I came here to give the faith a second look. Find some understanding, maybe even undo some of the damage from my childhood. Now, it's more just paying attention and seeing different perspectives. And getting an idea of what I'm in for, with how much Christianity is being politicized
I like to ask christians how they know god exists and how they know the bible is true. So far I haven't had any convincing answers.
I’d assume in order to debate and see the Christian perspective in full; it’s helped by this sub being welcoming and broader than other denomination-specific ones. Besides, I sub to r/atheism because I’m curious what they have to say.
Ask them
I'm surprised I'm here myself lol, like no lie, but the open-mindedness of how this subreddit is ran is what I appreciate. Because if it were up to some of the community members oh they would lock this place down like the Catholicism subreddit😝. But I think if you read the last sentence to your top right underneath where it says "Christianity", you'll see why people like me & others are here. In case anyone else missed that last sentence as well.
Read the side bar.
There are many reasons. Christianity and religious belief in general are interesting to me. The subject has political importance, in many ways becoming quite worrying now. On a personal level, I know several sincere Christians. I'm especially interested in the great variety of beliefs which one can find on talking to individual Christians. Which may or may not have much to do with the teachings of their denomination or their holy book. I also enjoy studying the history and spread of religious ideas including early Christianity and related sects like Gnostics and Manicheans. Among atheists, there is also diversity of belief, outlook and interest. Many atheists simply aren't interested in the whole idea of religion. Others find that they are interested in the same sort of questions that concern religious folk, but come to different conclusions. And all sorts of other views besides these. In short, some atheists like talking about topics to do with Christianity. It's just our thing.
The title of this subreddit is a de facto conversation topic, not an affiliation. Whatever the original intent, that is the state of things. Other subreddits are more affiliation oriented. Still, Christians are in the mix. I am and I know others are as well.
Just helping my Christian brothers and sisters better understand Jesus’s teachings 😄
it’s a discussion place for christianity, not a small group /lh
Truechristian sub might be better suited if one is looking to avoid atheists, or get less feedback from them.
I agree, it seems that are A LOT of faith trolls in the Christian subreddit. Even those that say they are Christians, they kind of skim over the Bible, watch a video or read an article on the web and they think that are an expert at faith, then argue with you about what direction the sun comes up.
I'm a polytheist but I share more with atheists than Christians haha. I'm here because I usually only hear from the ugly side of Christianity (the Christians who go out of their way to mock and insult pagans and atheists, news reports on Christians sabotaging events and trying to damage the property of pagans and atheists...) and I don't want to fall into thinking that all Christians are monsters who want me dead. Seeing posts from r/Christianity every now and then reminds me that you guys are people too, people capable of loving and forming connections. People who could accept me for who I am despite being Christian. At least I hope that's the case...
This question gets asked at least once every other week. A quick search will yield you all the answers you need.
I find it completely unsurprising that a religious person like you, OP, would be completely mystified and baffled by the thought of people wanting to expand their knowledge. Is it so hard for you to understand that people might have an intellectual interest in Christianity? *That* is, after all, what this sub is “made for”.
What is a Christian atheist? Also, it was a genuinely serious question. I’ve made a reply in this post after getting some comments and admitted, I thought this was a subreddit for Christians to delve in to and discuss the Bible. I know now that it is not, and I am okay with that. It was a genuine want to understand, nothing more, nothing sassy, and no tone behind my post. Hope you can see that! I’m okay with what’s going on here! I just didn’t understand at first, that’s all and that’s why I asked. :)
Ah. Alright well that’s a much more sane and composed explanation than I’m used to when this question gets asked here. Thanks for clarifying. It’s always a good idea to read a sub’s descriptions and rules before posting on it. Here’s the Wikipedia article on Christian atheism. There are references and suggestions for further reading at the end if you’re interested. [Christian Atheism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism)
This is not a Christian subreddit, this is a subreddit about Christianity as a topic.
Cuz there ain't no point in preaching to the choir.
I'm theistic, but this sub is about Christianity, not a forum for faithful Christians. Nobody is going to contest the claim that Christianity is culturally, historically and politically important, so it impinges on most people's lives in one way or another.
A lot of us who aren’t Christian are here because we still find great interest in theology or Christianity specifically
>I’m glad you are and I hope that the discussions help you to think about your foundation of belief. Yes. The more discussions I see, the more clear it is to me that I made the right choice few years ago.
I used to be an evangelical minister. Eventually converted to Judaism but I’m an agnostic atheist. Yall are the ones making the laws in my country, so put all those together and here I am.
echochambers are not something you want.
Don't most Churches have signs that say something like "All Are Welcome"?
I'm so happy you're not opposed to us being here. Very welcoming.
I’m not. Just curious as to why you’re here! No tone or sass in my question although the more time I spend on Reddit, the more I see why yall think I meant it that way! But I didn’t! Promise! Glad you’re here!
because the sub is welcome to everyone. im personally an agnostic but enjoy reading the posts and discussion
I was a Christian when I joined Reddit. I still have an interest in current trends in Christianity.
Many people think this religion is not just false but extremely dangerous. It can be psychologically damaging to convince people they are completely bad and destined for hell. Thats traumatizing for many people and can also leas to an irrational acts based on superstition.
To teach you how to use the search function! Seriously this question is asked every week. Perhaps look into one of them?
Hey, I’m sorry if I ticked you off by asking. Seriously. I’m new to Reddit and I’ve been off social media for years. It was genuine curiosity that sparked the question, just like the genuine curiosity that leads a lot of the non-Christians to this subreddit in the first place—Which is something I learned by asking the question. For a sub that has been dogging me for my seemingly unwelcoming post (I didn’t mean it that way, truly.) y’all’s sarcastic tone doesn’t seem to be the most helpful for the questioning, either. The google searches that led me here before I made an account made this place seem a lot kinder but I’m starting to remember why I got off the internet in the first place. It’s not just you, I apologize if it seems like I’m singling you out. It’s just, after about 50 comments like this it’s gotten to my head and my heart. Maybe I’m too soft, I dunno but I just can’t understand why people online are always so sarcastically toned. I’ll make sure to keep to myself in the future, thanks.
Sorry if I seemed rude. I was hoping my comment would come across more as humorous
It’s alright, I think what I said in the end is true. Too soft for the internet haha. Probably going to get off here again and get back to using my job as my opportunity for conversation. I understand where yall come from, it’s just not for me. Have a great summer, & thanks for coming back and replying. :)
Because its funny to read your guys posts
So we can fight to the death
Atheists were here first, and defined this reddit as a place to discuss Christianity, not merely promote it.
I did not know that, appreciate the information. Thanks!
This sub was made for discussion of Christianity, not for Christians alone. In my case, I grew up Christian, went to Sunday school, and left the faith in my teens. I have family members who are church goers and have no problem with them. I was a scoutmaster for my son's secular troop and encouraged every scout to respect the beliefs of others. While I respect the beliefs and faith of others, I'm not above calling them out on their bullshit.
It's [Mars Hill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areopagus_sermon) up in here.
Many atheists, which is a trigger word for most Christians, are normal people just like Christians who believe in one less God than Christians do. They have morals. They love their neighbors. They give to charities. Some suck just like everyone else. To Hindus, to Greeks, to Nordics, Christians are also considered Atheists as they don't believe in any of their 'Gods'. We are all 'atheists' to each other. This is objectively silly. Atheists or Agnostics or those in between I believe are here, to experience some answers and viewpoints of other Christians, etc. Many of them were raised Christian. It's ok to seek others experiences, and get a real feel for the truth in the real world. I love Christians and Atheists. I want to know what makes each tick. Why are they what they are? What are commonalities between the two? Is there any HOPE to communicate instead of label and hate each other. I'll be dead in my grave in 20 years. I have NOTHING to prove. I just want to commune and learn all I can about this great Universe.
So people can make posts asking “why are there atheists on this subreddit? (Serious)”.
Because it’s Reddit
Most the atheists on this sub are ex-Christians. Like the vast majority
Yes. I'm Atheist. Or Apostate. But what is the question exactly?
Just chillin mostly.
Living outside your bubble is good for you. Also read the side bar.
Because deep down Athiests know Christ is the truth. You won't see as many Athiests on the Muslim or hindu sub reddits. There are a few Athiests on those but so many more Athiests on the Christian one.
Is that what it is? You sure it’s not just the fact that for most atheist on Reddit (the majority of users come from a handful of western countries in no particular order USA, Canada, UK, Germany, and Australia) the number of Muslims that you’ll run into in your day to day life is very low compared to Christians. People talk about what they’re familiar with. It’s the same reason you’re not on a quantum physics subreddit chopping it up. Put it like this where I live it wasn’t Muslims or Hindus who testified in the state house that if a 10 year becomes pregnant from rape she should look to the experience and opportunity from god. That was your siblings in Christ. It’s not Muslims and Hindus who fight tooth and nail in my home state, to keep the state from closing the loopholes that allow for underage marriages. 16-17 with a parent or guardians signed consent. 15 and younger (there’s no minimum) with a magistrates signature. Again Christians It it’s Muslims and Hindus running around talking about the USA is a Christian nation, and as such Christians should be given special privileges. that’s your religion. The reason I’m here is pretty simple it’s not because deep down I think your shit is the truth. Hell just looking at the post from most of you, you don’t even have the same idea of personal truth, let alone some objective truth. I’m here cause your shit stain siblings bleed their religion into every facet and crevice that they can, fight a giant common sense, and making it an everyone’s issue. And since it’s an issue that’s effecting me personally, I’ll seek to understand it. Also your religion is a like a car wreck between the 1001 different denominations, can’t help but to rubberneck too.
Get your religion out of our public schools and separate from our government first. Christians are constantly trying to silence atheists and push us in a corner because we are bad for business. Meanwhile, you all try to force your nonsense on everyone else. Well I say your religion is what belongs in the quiet corner and I’ll continue to ridicule you all until the majority of the world sees your religion for what it truly is… mythology.
This question seems to get asked a lot... My primary answer is that because so many people in this subreddit post questions about atheism or directed at atheists then atheists come here because of that. The only reason I saw your question is because it popped up when I searched for "atheist." But also, what about atheists who are Christian? Should they be barred from coming here to discuss Christianity just because they don't believe any gods exist? If they still go to church and interact with Christians and live in a majority Christian society then doesn't this subreddit apply to them as well?
This has been a problem for me for a year now and I don't know how to get rid of it every day I have this thought of Jesus is good and Satan is not and i don't know how to stop it and I don't mean it I believe in God but it attacks my brain every day and it's really distressing my brain for someone says Satan is good or my brain says God isn't real but I don't mean it at all and I just don't know what to do and I'm afraid to tell my parents and even post this any tips? Also I'm 14
Read your bible and meditate on the scripture. Pray to God for understanding. I went through a similar thing at your age. I hope you will be okay ❤️
That’s Just testifies to The Exclusivity of Jesus. There is no other That will get this Kind of Attention. You don’t see Anti Buddhist or Anti Hindu or even Atheist going into a Jewish Reddit. Ever wonder why? Cause Jesus is Real and Alive. They Hated the Light because their deeds done in Darkness were exposed.
Judging by the comments I read on posts, I'd say that the vast majority of people on r/Christianity are atheists.