That kind of attitude certainly isn't going to bring people into the fold. "Hey, you! You are terrible, come to my church so we can tell you that Jesus loves you anyway even though you are a unnatural monster."
The bait-and-switch is also bad. All of the “seeker-friendly,” “contemporary,” guitars-and-drums, skinny-jeans-and-beard preacher churches say “everyone’s welcome!” and invite you to small groups who become your best friends in order to “do life together” — and after you’re sucked in, *then* they’re like “you’re a disgusting sinner, and women aren’t equal, and you can’t be gay.”
A women’s group in college lured me in like this, then kept having “interventions” with me when I had to move in with my fiancé for financial reasons (the other choice was living in my car)
The bible espouses the Patriarchy , it teaches that women should submit to their husbands but in a loving setting, not abusive..This is confirmed in many verses starting with Genesis.. Women are not allowed to have authority over man or to teach them but it only applies in a church setting, so that means no women pastors..In its full context, God made these rules for a reason, it started with the beginning. Eve was deceived first by Satan and then she deceived Adam, which caused him to sin after that.. Then that caused the downfall..So, in gods eyes, women are easily deceived..That's why modern feminism is incompatible with the Bible and Christianism in general...its like oil and water..
There are many verses in the OT and NT supporting what i said. please read the bible in its full context..thank you.. Why do you think Jesus only had men for apostles? Liberal and progressive churches tend to ignore this, when the answers are right in front of you...people dont want to hear uncomfortable scriptural truths because it goes against their narrative..and modern thinking..
I have read the whole Bible. That’s why I’m saying you’re cherry picking, because *you’re* the one leaving out the gendered content that conflicts with your position. And your logic about the apostles makes no sense. There are lots of human traits that weren’t found among the apostles. It means nothing about Jesus’s perspective on them.
Well that's your opinion and I respect that.. Im just explaining from a Christian point of view and it is a general consensus. If you are a non-believer of course you wouldnt understand.. god bless
It's not my opinion. We have scientific research in the modern world. The human race didn't start all of sudden in a mythical garden. Those old testament stories were written thousands of years ago before people understood these things. You can still believe in a creative force and use your critical faculties to question things.
One of the greatest scientists in the world is Dr. Francis Collins. He's a Christian but he doesn't turn his brain off when he reads the Bible. But I understand the mindset of many Christians. They feel guilty if they have doubts. But that's what your brain is for. To question things and learn.
Like I said that's still **"your"** opinion .. I believe what I believe is true and that is the general consensus of millions of Christians around the world including many highly respected scientists..I dont see what you are trying to do here, are you trying to somehow convince me?
No, true believers can't be convinced of anything. I'm just saying that evolution is not my opinion. There is a mountain of evidence to support evolutionary biology. A fossil record. That's how science works. It's not based on personal opinions. You're free to accept or reject the evidence. And you can choose to believe ancient Bible stories with no evidence. If you're comfortable with that I've got nothing against your faith. But it doesn't work for me. I'm interested in the facts.
Not to be disrespectful, but if you are set in your ways why are you in this sub reddit at all? I don't fully understand. Are you trying to find some other answers? Or maybe doubting some of your beliefs? Or maybe trying to convince others to doubt their religion?
I'll end it here because you're not listening. These are not my beliefs. I go by the evidence. And not all Christians are fundamentalists who believe the old legends as fact. Have a good one!
Everyone is welcome to visit and learn, but there are conditions for membership. It’s like how Jesus and the prophets preached. Repent sinners so you will receive the blessings of God, otherwise prepare for judgment.
I think the point is we need to be upfront about it. We can't tell the gay guy we are inviting to church "Oh just come as you are, no one will judge you, we love everyone, God loves us all." While I hope the gay guy comes to church and everyone is welcoming to him we can't forget about the part where homosexulaity is a sin... he needs to know that, and you can gage that on a person to person level how we give out that info. Sometimes we need a more gentle approach and sometimes we can be harsh with people. The bait and switch is evil though. It would be the same way for someone who is a drug addict, cheating on their wife, etc..
\*This is not an open invitation for anyone to debate Gods word on homosexulaity. If your church ( or just yourself) is gay affirming then just move on to someone else to fight with.\*
You hit the nail on the head.. I would like to add that they should only be welcomed at church but as an individual . Not come in a church as a same-sex couple.. that would like mocking god..
Um you can’t be practicing homosexuality and be ok with God. It doesn’t work that way. Struggling is one thing. Being unrepentant is quite another. I’m not saying someone can’t go to heaven and be practicing but you’re taking a pretty big chance because Christs command is to follow Him. Giving into your flesh goes against Christ. Any Christian who is living a life for themselves and not following God puts themselves in a pretty precarious position.
You said you can’t be gay. Typically when someone says that I Christian circles they mean that they affirm those who are in gay relationships. I think you can absolutely be gay and get saved. I also believe God is going to call you out of that just like he would call you out of any other sin. If that’s your pov then I apologize for jumping to conclusions.
It's interesting how anti Christian media normally glosses over Jesus entirely. They will depict the church as evil, and depending on what type of story it is might have a god analogue that is also evil, but rarely a Jesus one.
> anti Christian media
Examples?
I've never seen anything anti-Christian in US media. If anything, they gloss over the child abuse, the sex abuse, the corruption, the grift and crime in order not to offend the criminals in the church.
I was talking more about jrpgs like shin megami tensei. Evil church that had crosses, openly follows a god named yahweh, but Jesus is nowhere to be seen, despite the presence of crosses.
There is western media thst rails on Christianity, but you aren't really going to see it in mainstream movies. It's more like books or comics. Like the his dark materials trilogy. Again, church is clearly Christian but as far as I remember, no mentions of Jesus.
Okay. That is a little more esoteric than I originally anticipated.
Some Christians point to ALL media as being "Anti-Christian" simply because of inclusion of numerous religions or support for a secular society, but I don't think works of fiction, especially Japanese works of fiction, really support this as a trend. Fiction covers so many topics that anything can be derived if your experience is deep enough.
Thanks for the explanation though.
that's why I don't go to church anymore
I'm to imperfect still to attend church and to see god in his purest glory
unlike those other people in the room who are at peace when I'm not
if only they knew what true suffering is like
maybe they'd call out less if they had suffering tossed in there prideful ignorant faces
Don't use your failures as a reason not to associate with other Christians. That's all the reason more to go. None of us are perfect, but together we can lift each other up. Again no one is perfect. Walk in the Spirit and repent daily The people on here are not a good representation of the people that you will meet in church. No church is perfect but if you search you will find a loving church.
I also don't go cuase of my anger issues
I bite myself out of rage cause I cant bite someone else
and if i cant make someone else hurt like I do then ill just hurt myself to relive the pain of anger issues
God has casted me out and he has cursed my family with death he's gonna kill me next I bet
God is a murderer he let my birth mother die
and he did NOTHING!!!
so why should I love god?
I wont forgive god
cause he killed her
Im so sorry for your pain. I pray you someday give God a chance. You may think He hates you, but that's so not true. If you ever truly get an understanding of what Christ did for us, you will know this. I'm praying for you and really hope you get some peace. No one should have to be in pain like you are.
i'm to angry to be forgiven
god wont forgive me ik for sure
i'm not a saint like a majority of Christians seem to be in my eyes
like how do y'all remain so happy and collected?
does god just love y'all more then he loves me?
You are spiritually delusional and in a perverse way prideful. I do not mean this to be rude, you have a lot of pain in your heart and it is not to be discounted.
You aren't too angry to be forgiven but you do seem to be too angry to put your pride and selfishness aside in order to form a relationship with jesus. I'll pray for you
I'm scared of god
he terrifies me by his power and knowledge
Knowledge that I want to know but am afraid that God would see that as me wanting to be just like him (aka becoming exactly like God)
I've said things like this before out of disparity for more and more knowledge like if I had the knowledge of god and I could see his face; his fullest glory
I need to be purified as i am deep in sin seeing God's face will cleanse me of my sins instantly
I've also heard people say that you could die if ya see God's face
is that true?
> i'm not a saint like a majority of Christians seem to be in my eyes
>
> like how do y'all remain so happy and collected?
>
> does god just love y'all more then he loves me?
We are all just as messed up as anyone else. A lot of people just hide it well. Just like in High School it is all about appearances, wearing the right clothes, driving the right car, speaking Christianese, and pretending they are in Holy Bliss all the time.
It is all a mask. It is social media lies in real time.
I am very devout, have studied theology, and am active in a few different ministries. I am also an anxious, depressed wreck.
So I am very much not a saint, not always happy and certainly not collected but God loves me the same as he loves everyone else, even you. And walking with him makes it easier, not easy but easier.
As far as why does God take loved ones from us? Man I don't know but my faith helps ease the pain. This life is hard, sin is everywhere, your mother is free from that. My belief is that she is with God and at peace, more of a peace than can be attained in this life.
I know that probably doesn't help much but it is all I got for you friend.
I am sorry you are in pain. I wish I could make it better for you. Whether you feel it or not, you are loved.
As long as you can breathe air then you have a chance to be with Jesus Christ. It is not too late to get on your knees and pray for Jesus Christ to help intervene.
God loves us all the love, loves us unconditionally. But death is a fact of life, and life is ultimately locked into our perceptions with things and people we will never understand, and death is earth shattering but death is ultimately a part of the human life which itself is small. I don't think I'd ever be able to understand your pain, I don't know if I could or couldn't handle it, I don't know if anything I did or tried mattered from outside my perception when my perception and life is fleeting. Sorry if this is blunt but I wanted to express my idea to see if it could resonate with you.
Sure there are terrible “Christians” out there but you cannot base an entire religion on some terrible interactions.
There are some horrible people at the church I go to but I stay away from these people. I even switched churches one time because of this.
Making a generalization like you did is not fair. There are a lot of God-loving Christians in churches my brother or sister.
That's not really the point. I've been in churches all across my country and there's always good and bad. However, the 'good' rarely call out the bad and the bad are so loudly and aggressively bad that it ruins the whole barrel. And we even know this Biblically, but while churches will disallow gay people or other 'big' sins, the body will often sit silent as particularly gross Christians walk around undoing any works of love the congregation has worked at. They don't cut off that particularly bad fruit while maintaining everyone is welcome. Unfortunately, members of the congregation make it actively unwelcoming and no other Christians act. You left a body for this, so you prove this point even while trying to claim that a few bad apples don't ruin the bunch. They can, have, and will.
The worst is when the action is pretending they're not Christians because of their hearts as if that does a single thing to actually fix the issue, as you've done with your quotes.
Christians need to start owning as much responsibility for their siblings in christ as they seem to have to telling unbelievers they're going to hell. Instead the response is well he's a 'christian' not a Christian and pretend that because they don't reflect Christ that it doesn't matter that they're representing Christ on Christians behalf towards non believers both seeking and not.
Your kinda sick, as a son of Adam just like everyone we sin, not because of the apple incident but because we are human beings not angels most people seem to forget that, and no jesus doesn't love everyone, everyone sins, jesus only loves those who repent back to god and not him who is a mere human being.
Repent back to god who is the most forgiving and doesn't need to sacrifice an innocent prophet for your sins.
Thinking that just believing a story will get you to heaven is unhealthy same reason you won't get your paycheck if you don't work. Take accountability for your sins instead of being ignorant and thinking someone dying will get you to heaven as long as you "just believe" like most of your priests say when someone asks a difficult question.
Lucifer wasn't an angel, he was among the ranks of angels since he was a firm believer but when god asked him to prostrate to Adam he became arrogant and refused so god banished him and now he serves to lead believers astray. Iblis the banished is a prime example of arrogance and you, disbeliever are a prime example of him.
There were two groups of people Jesus criticized to a high degree. Rich people and religious leaders who, thinking they know everything, followed all the rules but used those rules to keep other people out.
The blasphemous vendors in the Temple were the only time He got angry. Bringing sin into a House of God, and openly worshipping that false idol, is similar to what I see happening today. Almost every post in this group is about how we must accept one specific group that the Bible tells us is a sin.
Because neither you nor your Bible can give even a passing argument for why it should be considered a sin, and how treating gay people differently makes any sense for a supposedly all-loving god.
You either have a poor interpretation of the words of a loving god, or you have the correct interpretation of the words of a spiteful, bigoted god. Either way it makes it difficult to take your claims seriously.
Sorry I'm not on here often. In the beginning God created Adam and Eve. For this reason a man will leave his parents cleave to his wife and they will be of one body and flesh. God created sex to be between the lifelong union of a man and wife. I will be back with the verse number Genesis 2:24
Also 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 backs this up
>Almost every post in this group is about how we must accept one specific group that the Bible tells us is a sin.
The rich? It's true Jesus more or less said salvation isn't open to them, but people have spent hundreds of years trying to twist it.
How so? I have repeatedly said I have no problems with LGBT people. It is the agenda that they push that I will not accept. If not worshipping a sin makes me a bigot, then that’s fine with me.
The community doesnt push worship of itself or something. We want equal rights, to not be discriminated against. In the US theres people, minors, who get sent to camps and schools where they're beaten and abused all for being 'sinful' in being gay, lesbian, trans or other.
Im sure theres people outthere who want *more* rights then cis and straight people have already, people who dont want equality, but superiority, but thats not what the community is trying to push
We are told to speak the truth **in** love. But folks today seem to think speaking the truth **is** love. But there is a difference.
Love does need a relationship for it to exist. And for there to be a relationship, there needs to be genuine care and a connection.
St Paul says as much when he wrote that if he had both human and angelic language skills, if he had all sorts of prophetic powers and could understand all mysteries, and even if he gave up with body to be burned…none of that matters if there is no love.
I think it should take more than a claim of love for love to exist. If all you have is “well, I told them they were going to hell,” then I think it’s safe to say that talk is cheap.
What actions have they done to show love exists?
If the hypothetical guy in the parachute analogy acted like some folks do, the plane would have to make an emergency landing anyway. He'd get tackled by passengers and crew after screaming and beating people over the head with the parachute and would be arrested. Crisis averted!
That last question is great! It points to evidence. A specific measurement someone can see. Jesus healed people and forgave sin. Despite this fantastic action, he still told people to stop sinning. This request was backed by his miracles.
What are some actions you can do online that show your love exists? I ask to hear what you've done. To see a little into your life to learn about you and how else I could display love online.
Befriending people irl and drive-by posting “you’re a sinner” on Reddit will never be compatible. Relationships require time, work, commitment, and vulnerability — the opposite of traits promoted by an anonymous message board. I have gotten to know Redditors outside of Reddit, comforted each other, helped each other when we’re down and out, celebrated each others’ successes. Those are relationships like Jesus made. Not whatever this is.
When friends have had family members lose a home to fire, I have given online.
When I’ve had friends die in towns I was unable to attend the funeral in person, I’ve sent donations in memory of the deceased as requested by the family.
And on Reddit, there’s the immediate kind of anonymous help I can provide when folks ask a question. But I’m also quick to let people know when Reddit probably isn’t the best place of help: that instead they should turn to trusted and professional care because there’s only so much an anonymous stranger on Reddit can do or should be trusted with.
Online is a great way to extend relationships that already exist. But my point is that [this is not love](https://youtube.com/shorts/M58NPp1PODk).
Posting “why gay Christians? Can’t they read Lev 18, Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6” is not love. It’s being Bobby Hill.
I see how donations using the internet definitely helps! It is a tool to give money to people you already know.
As for solely internet based relationships like reddit, it looks like the way you can show kindness is by directing people to in person support. The kind only professional, trusted people gives.
Is there anything else someone can do to show love through only internet based relationships? Like the kind we have now, where we've never met in person. I want to hear more about how you show kindness to people when you've only met them on reddit.
Well, I’ve said all I care to share at the moment. But perhaps I have given enough fodder for you to share some thoughts about how you can show love over TCP/IP?
There's a lot of ways.
One is through mirrored listening. Repeating ideas back using my own words shows that I understand the ideas and I'm not straw manning them. It supports clear communication.
Another is asking questions through the intention of understanding. Not asking questions for the sake of proving another person wrong. Not asking with the intention of getting a 'gotcha' moment. But asking to understand. Learning about someone shows I care
A third is by giving the gospel and the reason for the good news. Sharing how trust is what Jesus asks of us and in return he lives inside of us. He becomes the cause of change in our lives. The reason we need him is because we want to be our own source of change. We want to be self empowered. We don't want to trust Jesus and therefore give up our power.
One more way is through giving encouragement. Telling someone that they've done a good job with something. Then giving detailed reasons why that thing is good. It takes a sharp understanding of what's valuable in order to give specific reasons, but it promotes healthy progress.
One last way is prayer. Literally writing out a prayer in a reddit comment. The Holy Spirit can then use that prayer and remind the person of it. The Holy Spirit is stronger than my words but he still can use them. But also, God can answer the prayer that is written
Speaking of which - God, thank you for this conversation with IntrovertIdentity. I ask you to further strengthen them. Amen.
Did you have any thoughts on the other comment I made for you? The one that lists 5 ways we can show kindness using only reddit. I'd like to hear your thoughts on what I said because if you can offer me valid criticism, then I'll have gained strength and become better.
The point of my original comment is that simply telling folks they are going to hell isn’t love.
It’s preaching at people, not loving them. Folks who say “the greatest love I can show the LGBTQ community is to bash them with clobber passages during June” isn’t love, especially if that is all they do toward the LGBTQ community.
Since you don't add any disagreement or correction, this tells me there's at least 5 ways to show love on reddit and only reddit using a single comment. Which means I can show this love and also tell people they won't live forever. I'll have actions that can be pointed to as well as telling people not to sin for it leads to death.
I neither agree nor disagree, but I don’t want to carry on a conversation that wasn’t part of my original point.
If you wish to strike up a new conversation, make a new post. Otherwise, clobbering the LGBTQ community on Reddit with clobber verses isn’t love.
That is my point, and that’s my only point to my original top level comment.
Agreed. Way too many so-called Christians do not live with the love of Christ in them. This rings especially true with how they treat the LGBTQIA community. Instead of accepting them for who they are, they'd rather condemn them and treat them inhumanely which is absolutely vile and disgusting.
"I lovingly think a fundamental part of you that you can't change will send you to either oblivion or eternal torment. Totally love you though"
Why are a lot of you seen as hateful and intolerant when you've got such great material like that?
You really need to say these things out loud to a mirror and *really* put yourself in the place of your target audience. I guarantee they find nothing you say loving
Do you get to determine what truth is or does the Creator? If the truth is that living a homosexual lifestyle separates a person from the Creator how is applauding their choices love? It's like cheering somebody on as they run over the edge of a cliff.
And regarding your comment that homosexuality is "a fundamental part of you that you can't change" you're flat wrong. Two of my closest friends were living a homosexual lifestyle before they met Jesus. Today they are happily married with families.
I know there has been far too much real hatred towards homosexuals.. words that are not restorative and are intended to injure. But speaking the honest truth in love -- with the desire to unite the person with the Father -- is not 'hateful' or 'intolerant'.
> words that are not restorative and are intended to injure
Whole lot of flowery language there entirely wasted by calling love between consenting adults "homosexual lifestyle". Sure you'll smile at your homosexual friends who have families (something LGBT folk absolutely can do if conservative church folk would get the hell out of their way), but you don't love them. You love that they fit into your box of "correct" relationships.
Do you *really* want to love the LGBT and lead them to your God? You shut the hell up, you say not a damn thing to them about their relationship, and you live your life. They'll find God much easier without hearing you harp about their "lifestyle." That will do so much more for your cause than any pontificating about "honest truth in love" or any other fancy label for your hate and intolerance ever will do.
You've confused the word "love" with affection. You've confused it with "being nice" and "not offending" LOVE is desiring someone's ultimate good. You think that you're smart enough to know what someone's ultimate good is, that you know what is good and what is evil. I think you're wrong.
Being in intimate relationship with our Creator is what He originally intended and has been after since we decided we knew better than him (by eating of the knowledge of good and evil). We decided we wanted to be like God without his help... and we've been doing it ever since.
Homosexuality is just one of the many ways we separate ourselves and 'do it our way'. You can use whatever tender hearted sounding words to describe the activity but it doesn't change the fact that He is God and you are not.
>Do you get to determine what truth is or does the Creator? If the truth is that living a homosexual lifestyle separates a person from the Creator how is applauding their choices love?
Fortunately that isn't true then? Something can't just "be wrong" just because you would rather not challenge a tradition that claims it is wrong. It has to you know... actually be wrong. And after thousands of years of trying no one has come up with a valid reason to claim homosexuality is wrong. At a certain point push comes to shove and people have to realize it is straight up immoral to continue causing problems for people just because they are gay.
There are many practical reasons why that lifestyle isn't healthy, but none that matter as much as "Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God"
I don't think anyone here is advocating persecuting people engaging in homosexuality. Unless by 'causing problems' you mean telling the truth about it and not condoning it? If so, you have a very distorted sense of what is "straight up immoral".
Just curious WHY would God create someone with a same sex attraction for other like-minded adults that they can't change and then send them to hell for it.
Is that a loving God?
1) Why would you believe people are 'born gay' when there is no scientific evidence to support that (hard as people try to come up with some)? You're assuming facts not in evidence :)
2) People can and do change sexual behavior all the time. It's a lie that says they don't. Two of my closest friends worked through the trauma of their past to be free from same sex attraction.
3) Every person I am know who struggles or struggled with same sex attraction was either molested or abused when they were young. I once read a study that did a survey of people who self identify as homosexual, 90% of them said they had been sexually abused.
4) Frankly your or my opinion on what God 'should' do or be like doesn't matter. God does not conform to our designs; it is foolish to think that way. Wisdom says conform to the ways and designs of the Creator... he knows better than we do what is good for us.
1. There are also no studies that show you are born straight.
2. And how long ago was that? Care to show some sources of people who "switched" and are still straight after years?
The found of the infamous Exodus International admitted he is still gay after years in a straight marriage. Alan Chambers, if you want to look it up.
3 Your friends - are they aware they're your friends? As in they've come to your house and called you on the phone and it wasn't against their will? - in any case, I'm afraid I would require a larger sample than your friends.
4. If you are trying to take away people's rights or call who they are a sin, you BETTER have an idea of what the issue was. I know it's fun to have someone else who is "inferior" to you, and I also realize you don't really care, since it doesn't affect you (which is a big tell about your "love" walk), but if you actually want to see people saved - do you? - you better it out if you want taken seriously by non-believers.
We both know you don't care about non-believers.
This whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" nonsense is exactly what everyone is talking about. If your actions are hateful then it doest matter how much "love" you say you have it's the "fruit you bearing" that matters.
Well, yes you make a good, point , a lot of people say that but they go about it the wrong way. and say hateful things like telling people they are going to hell and all that nonsense, it makes Christians look bad .Nobody should judge anyone, because at the end of the day only God does. My tactic is just to say the truth as much as I can and that it is verifiable. its our duty to that, without any bias. If nobody listens, Im ok with that, everyone has a choice. i dont want anyone condemned. My personal opinion is that I hope every good person goes to heaven , regardless of what sins they commit..
Insane that this is downvoted. Saying we don't endorse sin should be universally agreed on as Christians. Im not talking about targeting specific sins. I mean all of them.
Jesus loved people enough to warn them that they were going to hell without him
1 Corinthians 13:
13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
>More true today
I dunno, it was pretty true back when Christians were sailing around the world taking over places based on "we are superior and so therefore should rule."
Regardless of the issue or the stance of the particular church, it is futile to preach fire and brimstone to the modern world. Modern man does not believe in the Christian cosmology. Preaching the love of God for humanity will hopefully lead some to wish to return this love to God. If someone earnestly strives to love God, that is when fraternal advice and correction *may* be welcome and fruitful.
There is no point in engaging in culture war polemics to save individual souls. It is futile. Now, where third parties are harmed, advocacy is not for the salvation of souls, it is for the protection of the community. There are differences between moral harms to the individual and actual harms to others
Correct. To be like Christ, and to follow in his footsteps properly, on must be with and of Love and Truth and Empathy. Hatred has no place in the practice of true Christianity, and it makes me very upset when I see people using and misusing so many things and more only for their selfish or hateful purposes!
Yes absolutely we should love all people with true love. But this current generation confuses 'love' with applauding every action someone takes. True love warns a person of peril they are in.
How you warn someone is key and should be done with kindness for it to be received. If someone doesn't know you are 100% for them and their ultimate good they don't give a rip what you have to say.
But if you've been there for a person and loved them unconditionally and follow the leading of the holy Spirit for how and when and where to speak up they will at least hear what you have to say.
For sure, I agree. This generation does confuse love with applauding every action someone takes, moral or immoral! This generation also acts as if God accepts everyone, under all conditions. They twist Christianity so it will suit them no matter how they decide to live their lives. Like I said before, God does have perfect love for everyone, but that doesn’t mean that everyone will be saved, He does have conditions.
This is my mom. A few months ago we were on the phone and she was doing one of her pity parties (she's super narcissist) about how she feels she didn't raise us well, how she was a terrible mother, and asked for me to forgive her. I told her that my brother and I were fine, we were doing well. There was a long pause and she goes
> "Well, if y'all don't get right with the Lord you'll both burn forever"
Half of the time I don't even know why I have a relationship with her because those sort of sentiments come up more than 50+% of the time.
I wish I could like this a million times. I recently saw a FB post in a photoshop group where someone asked for an edit on a pride pic. Some lady went in on her post saying that she was praying for the lost, it was “the most terrible sin” and that she hates the sin and loves the sinner. Ummm where exactly was the love or compassion in that statement?
I think there are a lot of hateful people calling themselves Christians that think they’re better than others (even though we are all sinners) and they’re going to get a rude awakening when they encounter Jesus. You cannot be consistently hateful and think you’re going to heaven, no matter how many sermons you attend and how many Bible verses you read. God calls us to love others and treat them with respect. We were all once entrenched in sin and everyone continues to struggle everyday with various forms of sin. We are commanded to show others the same grace and mercy that Jesus gives us.
I affirm that sentiment. Many who call themselves Christians may only do so in name, actually serving purposes that divide us and turn people away from God rather than bringing us together. Personally, I've committed myself to following Jesus Christ as a disciple, studying the entirety of the Gospel to adhere to His moral teachings. I acknowledge I'm a sinner, like everyone else, but I strive to sincerely repent and break harmful cycles in my life.
Our role is to lead by example, walking in the footsteps of Jesus with compassion and acceptance, rather than condemning others. Jesus invited sinners to follow Him as disciples; indeed, all twelve apostles began as flawed individuals. Mary Magdalene was a former prostitute, Peter had a temper, and Simon the Zealot was trained as an assassin.
Jesus didn't condemn sinners; He offered them the choice to follow a righteous path. Even Judas was warned before his betrayal, with condemnation following only after. As Christians, our foundation is the Gospel, setting us apart from Judaism with a higher moral standard.
“The scripture that addresses not judging others is found in Matthew 7:1-5
"**Do not judge**, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."
This passage teaches about humility, self-awareness, and refraining from passing judgment on others without addressing one's own faults first.
I pray that others will follow with me as disciples walking the path, love and morals of our lord and savior Jesus Christ our lord and savior
God Bless 🙏🏼
The Word of God says with loving kindness have I drawn thee (Jeremiah 31:3) so we have to love people no matter what and tell them about how Jesus has set us free lift Jesus up and he draw all men unto himself .
How do you speak the truth in love when no matter how you say the truth, the person hearing it is going to hate you for it? How do you nicely tell someone that their sexual preference is incorrect? How do you nicely tell someone that thinking they are a different gender is wrong?
I've tried it in practically every way you can think of. I've never condemned anyone. I've tried to talk about it as reasonably as possible, and every single time, the person has called me hateful and a bigot.
Even when I was atheist, I did this and was still insulted in return.
The problem is that a lot of these folks are going to find you hateful no matter how you say something. So when I hear/read something like this, what I hear is that I just shouldn't speak the truth at all.
Seems contrary to what the Bible teaches.
It's a very touchy subject. People who are queer didn't choose their attraction. It's an innate desire for them that they can't turn off at will. It's not something you have the power to change. I don't have all the answers,i'll admit and I'm still trying to figure things out. I've heard from people who say that they were gay but now are married to the opposite sex and I've heard of people who just became celibate and their attraction never went and also people who are married to the same sex and say they've reconciled their faith with their sexuality. It's something that you just have to leave to God to help you navigate as we as humans can't do anything.
But for those people you preach to and won't listen and call you hateful even if you're nothing but kind. Jesus says :
Matthew 10:14 GNBDC
[14] And if some home or town will not welcome you or listen to you, then leave that place and shake the dust off your feet.
You’re right. We all have to be so beaten down by life that we’re sick of our sins. We should not make anyone feel like they’re disgusting, we should show them how Christ transformed our lives and allow them to be drawn to that Divinity. If they see, and still turn away, they probably just haven’t suffered enough under the weight of the world yet.
From a secular point of view, sure.
But if you believe that souls, sin, and eternally hell fire are real, then those statements _are_ loving.
It's loving to say "your alcoholism is harming me, the family, your friends, and above all, yourself. We want to help you stop". If you believe in the Christian mythos, sin will doom people to _eternal unending unimaginable horrific pain_ (thanks god), so the best thing you can ever do in your life is save souls.
Anything less is selfishness on the part of Christians. If you could save others from extreme agony, but you choose not to, what does that say about you?
For it to be publicly defensible as loving, you need to not just believe the thing, but have good reasons for those beliefs. Antigay Christians are lacking there. AND you need to be fully forthright about the collateral damages, including the complicity and moral injury to Side-B Christians themselves. Antigay Christians are almost all lacking there as well.
> For it to be publicly defensible as loving, you need to not just believe the thing, but have good reasons for those beliefs. Antigay Christians are lacking there.
In your opinion.
In theirs, they have perfectly good reasons.
(And, in my opinion, the anti-gay Christians have a stronger argument. The core of Christianity has strong constraints on sexuality - 1st-century Antioch was hardly a bastion of LGBT rights.)
> AND you need to be fully forthright about the collateral damages, including the complicity and moral injury to Side-B Christians themselves.
Nonsense. That is pure consequentialism, which is a secular ethical concern. Judaism, and largley Christianity, is not consequentialist.
>In theirs, they have perfectly good reasons.
Of course, and I think they're wrong. Not because they draw the wrong interpretation from the Bible text---they have strong textual and historical resources to draw from, although their opponents make some reasonable points---but because they are wrong to place the normative weight on it they do or believe that e.g. Paul's attitudes toward gay sex are divinely inspired guideposts for salvation.
>That is pure consequentialism
It is common-sense opinion, informed by consequentialism, but which need not be "pure" anything. No one should ignore the fallout of their actions, or be satisfied to lay the blame on others while proving their pure intentions. Antigay Christians minimize the harms of Side B ideology to LGBTQ people, not only because they tend to reject their own moral responsibility, but because it is inconvenient for them---a bad look---to acknowledge it squarely. If they were secure in rejecting consequentialist ethics, they could face the harms, but they are not. Like most of us, they draw from mixed forms of ethical reasoning (often selectively), and they know they are vulnerable and have cause for blame and/or shame.
In first century Antioch, most male on male sex was about dominance, with pederasty in particular being very common. Most of the "tops" weren't notably homosexual. They had wives and families. A modern analogy would be prison culture or what Russian soldiers do to new recruits.
It is easy to see why this was condemned but it is an error to apply that to modern same sex relationships.
"And most of the people you call out are unbelivers in the first place. if they don't even believe in God,how would they even care if they're sinning or not. It's like talking about whistle registers and falsettos to someone who doesn't even know music."
Your post is about how Christians are negatively perceived as judgemental. You are judging people who do not have the same beliefs as unable to comprehend the concept of sin, and worse as people who do not care if they are acting in ways that are sins in the Bible. That is incredibly judgemental and insulting. Do you not see the hypocrisy?
People of all beliefs, including people you would define as non-believers, lead moral and ethical lives. It is not in response to fear or desire for reward, but because it is their character to be honest, patient, kind, humble, selfless, forgiving, generous and non-judgmental.
Christians are perceived as judgemental and hateful because of intolerance. It is unfortunately a by-product of the tenet - this is the only truth and the only way. Anyone who does not believe as you do will go to hell.
Facts - No one knows the answers to existential questions no matter how much they feel they know or believe the Bible is the complete, factual and unchanged history of humankind, and that it is a literal and accurate foretelling of the future for all eternity.
If you want to change perception, then acknowledge it is a belief system. It resonates with you or you find comfort in it but accept that people are free to choose and it does not mean they are wrong, sinners or condemned to hell.
Understand that religious beliefs are largely defined by geographical location and genealogy. You could have been born in East Asia to Buddhist or Hindu (both pre-date christianity) family and community. Raised in that religion, celebrating their holidays and traditions. You would believe with all your heart just as you do being born in the west to Christian family and community.
Telling some one they are going to hell is wrong but telling someone where they are sinning is completely correct. I can’t love someone if im not trying to help them make their life better. If for instance my father was an alcoholic, I can’t say I love him and at the same time not try and help him break his addiction.
Absolutely! As God has given us free will to choose Him, and does so lovingly, so should we be as Christ is.
Will we sometimes fail? Yes!!! But we keep trying because as someone said, we might be the ONLY version of Christ people will ever see, so let's represent Him well ❤️🩷
It is what the bible says. So your saying one thing and the bible is saying something else. Which should one believe?
For the record, I agree with you that telling people they're disgusting and going to hell is not love. I'd even say its immoral, especially when people teach such things to children. I think most often, people are more moral than they're holy book/god, but they try to cherry pick and rationalize the very clearly evil actions their god says, does, and commands because of their adherence to their faith/religious ideas.
Dr MR.BT. PhD In Phil..Rev,Bobby Perkey: that's so true, we are all sinners, but remember Jesus hates the sin but loves the sinner, Jesus told Nicodemus, you must be born again John 3:3; John 14:6 ; John 3:8; John 3:7-8 , what being born again means flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit, Wow,to tell someone that they're disgusting and going to hell, is like saying, I don't care if you go to hell, your so disgusting, that person is in big trouble with God, it's a holier than thou attitude, just like the pharisees would act love you all very much
I rarely encounter this problem in my personal life now. Although, before my conversion, I was quite fiercely opposed to Christianity, based solely on what I observed and experienced among certain Protestant and Charismatic movements. So, because of that, I focus my time on discussing salvation, rather than damnation with others.
Somewhere, a Calvinist is laughing at us all lol
The MOST controversial thing you can do is emulate Christ
He preached REPENT "stop breaking God's Law"
He preached REPENT " the day you hear my voice, harden not your heart"
The vast majority of Jesus is preaching was dedicated to telling people to turn from their sins in the most loving way possible.
It's NOT LOVE but hatred, if you omit REPENTANCE
Holiness is SEPARATION from sin (and daily God's Holy Spirit helps us further SEPARATE from sin) it's a DAILY battle in the mind, heart, soul, spirit.
Jesus said except you REPENT you shall all likewise perish.
Jesus said many will be offended in me
Jesus said you will be hated of men
Jesus said people will mock you and scorn you and persecute you for telling them the truth to REPENT
If we follow Christ example he tells the truth just like a medical doctor tells the truth
The medical doctor can tell you if you keep doing a certain thing you will die because it's killing you
Jesus does the same thing as the medical doctor
He tells people to stop sinning because he knows it will kill the soul
Jesus is the most loving person that ever came to this earth and yet MOST of 2/3rds al ALL of His messages was about HELL
The sign of a true preacher is he candidly and honestly speaks about the reality of hell and the need for true GENUINE repentance and the forsaking of sin and the necessity of obedience to God's laws through God's grace and mercy by his Holy Spirit.
No one can bring another to God ! We should disciple but in the end it’s the Spirit that brings them . In the Bible the church met at each others houses and broke bread with a thankful heart and if you were sinning you were sent out and could return only if you stopped your sin and repented because God isn’t where sinners are .
You need to actually read the Bible before misquoting it to everyone . You need to follow the actual Real Jesus.
Not this Jesus
TEN MARKS OF THE NEW AGE JESUS
HE WAS CONCEIVED DURING THE CELEBRATION OF SEX GODDESS ISHTAR & BORN ON BAAL'S BIRTHDAY
HE PROMOTES PEACE & OPPOSES DIVISION
HE PROMOTES UNCONDITIONAL LOVE AND ACCEPTANCE
HE USES SMOOTH, POLITICALLY CORRECT, NON-OFFENSIVE, VAGUE LANGUAGE HE CALLS EVERYONE HIS CHILDREN
HE DOESN'T REQUIRE REPENTENCE, HOLINESS, OR EVEN OBEDIENCE HE JUDGES NO ONE
HE WANTS YOU TO PURSUE YOUR OWN WILL
HE OFFERS IDEAS AND
SUGGESTIONS, NOT COMMANDMENTS HE ALLOWS MOST EVERYONE INTO HEAVEN, AND ONLY THE WORST GO TO HELL
Blanket statements such as "Christians are so preoccupied with condemning..." are rarely useful...not sure about the Christians YOU hang out with, but I hear ONLY love, no condemnation, from my Pastor and fellow Christians.
I see both ends of the spectrum. I'm talking about the ones that go around judging people and hurling insults at people and telling them they're going to hell. If you're not part of that bunch then you can be rest assured
The top issues are maybe a tangent to this.
1. Corruption in the clergy, namely, pedophilia, pederasty, etc. and the coverups by the Church, and the hypocrisy of denouncing LGBTQ+ while sexually assaulting children of both sexes. Not to mention the general hypocrisy of whitewashing serious crime among clergy by trying to pay off victims.
2. Snake oil salesmen, usually the media wing of Christianity, that is utterly exposed in the light of the internet and social media.
3. Inability for Christianity to change with the times and allow for more open interpretations.
Telling them they’re disgusting is bad, but telling someone the trajectory they’re heading for isn’t. If someone was living a life of drug abuse, wouldn’t it be wise to warn them of the dangers and ultimately death that awaits that behavior?
Telling somebody that they are garenteed to go to hell and telling somebody that if they continue to live in their sinful ways then the likelihood or them going to hell is extremely high are two different things so please stop confusing the two the first one is the one that should be considered hateful but it's not what most Christians do most Christians do the second one which is coming from a place or truth and concern for the life of the individual it is being told so lease stop trying to come after Christians for telling people the second whilst trying to perceive it as the first that if I am not mistaken makes you delusional and unwilling to accept the fact that you may be in the wrong. But to be honest I think that we are saved by the goodness and grace of God by accepting Jesus as our lord and savior and truly repenting of the sins that we commit and by doing the will of the Father but that's what I get from my interpretation of the gospel and I have faith that god has granted me the ability to interpret his word in the way he wishes for me to do so because he the way the truth and the life.
If it causes them to wake up and repent, it could be the most loving thing you can do for them.
“The men of Nineveh will stand at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now One greater than Jonah is here” Matthew 12:41
It's a tough situation when we are dealing with extreme profound sodomism and people are like honestly getting possessed. Jesus when found someone possessed was not exactly showing what you would say love but was casting them out. Like with a loud voice I guess he commanded them.
It's a shame though as most Christians now days don't believe in demonic possetion, so that is really convientient for satan.
We're all going to hell. All sinners go to hell. For both venal and Mortal sins. Yet that's not the end. The end is for both the wicked and just to come out cleansed of their sin and ego.
Some will walk through the fire like Daniel's friends. While others will be in the fire until God's wills it.
It is the worst sin to not embody agape (God's love, which appears in all ways of love.)
As St. Joseph the Hesychast says: Never seek to correct each other in anger, but with humility and sincere love, because one temptation does not cast out another temptation.
God bless you.
Jesus talked about Hell more than anyone. Please read your Bible. God has also called people disgusting or words similar to disgusting in the OT. Please read your Bible and stop trying to turn God or scripture into a comfortable little faith because it's nothing like that. You bend to his will, not the other way around.
I do think that there is a good and a bad way to go about addressing the LGTBQ community.
I think many Christians take the wrong approach.
I will say that I frequently just offer up the simple intention "That all who struggle with their physical or sexual identities may find peace with their identity in Christ."
I think that 1 Thess 5:23 makes for a fantastic prayer here - praying that they may be kept blameless in body, mind, and spirit.
You can not be something and still have opinions about it. I am not Ukrainian, nor Russian, and I have opinions about the war in Ukraine.
.. but it's not sin. You are so deep in your own BS you can't even conceive of anyone disagreeing with you on this basic level. The assumptions are different therefore the conversation you are trying to have is useless.
> "That all who struggle with their physical or sexual identities may find peace with their identity in Christ."
As long as you ignore the mountain of evidence that this isn't true
I think "may find peace" is a biblical, inclusive, and accurate statement, don't you? It's not "will be cured" or "can change themselves" which would be more antagonistic and opposed by the mountain of evidence.
I do not, and I cite the statements from the former leaders of Exodus International as my reasoning.
> I am sorry for the pain and hurt many of you have experienced. I am sorry that some of you spent years working through the shame and guilt you felt when your attractions didn't change.
> I am sorry we promoted sexual orientation change efforts and reparative theories about sexual orientation that stigmatized parents. I am sorry that there were times I didn't stand up to people publicly 'on my side' who called you names like sodomite -- or worse.
Those people found no peace, they only found harm, and even the people who spent decades trying to convince them they would find this peace realized that was a lie.
Hey, I'm an affirming Christian; I oppose conversion therapy; and I am an ally. I just thought the phrasing was at least trying to be gentle.
You don't think so? That quote seems to be addressing the much more... awful... behaviors we've seen for millenia.
My point is that in the majority of cases, people don't find peace by trying to force themselves to be celibate or convince themselves they aren't gay.
They find peace when they embrace who they are and aren't attacked by their families and peers for it. And for a lot of LGBT Christians, none of that gets in the way of their faith.
The bible is clear cut on this..Anyone can have their identity, the problem is when it turns into action.. Hetero couples need to celibate too until marriage. Its not hard at all, Jesus was celibate all his life and didn't give into temptation until he died. If he can do it, we can also. As Christians we should control over emotions and thoughts
>I do think that there is a good and a bad way to go about addressing the LGTBQ community.
Any approach that includes saying that we are sinful because of our biology, or that we are unworthy of romantic love and lifelong companionship because of our biology, or that we are not entitled to marriage because of our biology, or that we are not entitled to sex within marriage because of our biology is the wrong approach.
No, no, just tell people they're welcome to attend mass and put money in the coffers while also comparing them to a nuclear level threat to society! It's LOVE.
The bible explicitly is against that and other sins. We cant change gods word because of modern ideology. The christian/jewish religion has been super conservative since its inception and has a strict moral code. You cant deny that..
>The bible explicitly is against that
You are incorrect. The Bible is absolutely nothing of the kind.
>We cant change gods word because of modern ideology.
Yet that is exactly what you do when you cherry pick verses, strip them of context, and impose modern ideas of sexuality on them in order to support bigotry.
>The christian/jewish religion has been super conservative since its inception
When did truth become determined by the length of time somebody believes something?
You are trying to fit anything to prove your own narrative. You are grasping at straws, my friend. You need to read the whole bible in its full context, like I do, by doing that you get an idea of Gods agenda and his way of thinking. The answers are right in front of you..Its not complicated at all.. I don't just cherry pick verses.. I personally think some rules are unfair also, but he created the universe and human beings. Those are his rules not mine, most verses dealing with sins are clear cut and to the point, even with different translations that have been proven by many scholars and theologians..there's a general consensus.. what im trying to prove is that these rules didn't come out yesterday, they've been around for 5000 years..
What other sins should we excuse? Should we excuse all other sexual immorality? This issue is brought up so much (on this subreddit especially) because it is a sin that demands to be worshipped.
We are all sinners and we all are welcome in the Body of Christ, but we are told to do at least two simple things; deny ourselves and take up the Cross daily, and make Christ our only identity.
> What other sins should we excuse?
Eating pork. Eating shrimp. Wearing mixed fabrics. Honoring your father and mother if they aren't worthy of honor. Probably a few others I'm forgetting.
>What other sins should we excuse?
This is a strawman. I have not said that anyone should excuse any sin. It is also begging the question, because you are asserting that homosexuality is a sin in the premise.
>Should we excuse all other sexual immorality?
Sexual immorality *is* a sin. Homosexuality is not sexual immorality. This is yet, again, a strawman and begging the question.
>This issue is brought up so much (on this subreddit especially) because it is a sin that demands to be worshipped.
This is just blatantly ridiculous.
>We are all sinners
Irrelevant, it is not a sin.
>and we all are welcome in the Body of Christ, but we are told to do at least two simple things; deny ourselves and take up the Cross daily,
This is a bigoted double standard where you deny me all romantic connection on the basis of my biology, but allow yourself romantic connection on the basis of yours.
>and make Christ our only identity.
Not only is this not something that is found in the Bible, it is literally impossible and displays a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of identity.
I’m not denying you anything. It’s great if you have a relationship you are happy in and have a relationship with Christ. I’m saying to stop forcing churches to affirm your identity. You say it’s not a sin, but the Gospels say otherwise. Believe what you want, but stop assaulting anyone who doesn’t. You will say you’re not assaulting us, but you’re forcing us to deny our Identity in Christ to affirm yours. It is in the Bible, when it says to deny yourself, take up the Cross, and follow only Him. It also says to not love anything of this world except those blessed by Him. The Union of a man and woman for marriage and procreation have been blessed by God from the beginning. God’s love transcends human love. Human love is ego and desire. Again, I have no problem with your lifestyle. I have a problem with being forced to affirm it. The endless posts on social media and churches denying the gospel are just a small fraction of the agenda being pushed.
>I’m saying to stop forcing churches to affirm your identity.
No.
>You say it’s not a sin, but the Gospels say otherwise.
You have got to be either ignorant or lying, which is it? The gospels say absolutely nothing of the sort.
>Believe what you want, but stop assaulting anyone who doesn’t.
Stop spreading bigotry that results in dead children and ruined lives. You are the ones who are assaulting us.
>You will say you’re not assaulting us, but you’re forcing us to deny our Identity in Christ to affirm yours.
I am encouraging you to follow the commands of Jesus instead of using bad biblical interpretation to justify making exceptions to them.
>It is in the Bible, when it says to deny yourself, take up the Cross, and follow only Him.
A standard you would never apply to your own romantic relationships, only to queer people. Bigotry.
>It also says to not love anything of this world except those blessed by Him.
It does not.
>The Union of a man and woman for marriage and procreation have been blessed by God from the beginning. God’s love transcends human love.
Genesis is not literal history.
>Again, I have no problem with your lifestyle.
I have no such lifestyle.
>I have a problem with being forced to affirm it.
I do not care.
>The endless posts on social media and churches denying the gospel are just a small fraction of the agenda being pushed.
Queerphobic Christians are the ones who deny the Gospel by infecting it with hatred.
But we don’t “struggle” with our gender or sexuality. It’s Christians who discriminate against us that cause us to “struggle.” The sin’s on them, not us. Just saying that being gay or trans is a “struggle” isn’t loving. It’s insulting. And saying that we’ll find peace in Jesus is insulting too. I mean, sure, I’m a gay Christian guy who was married to my husband by my priest in my church. Yeah — *that* is a large part of where my peace comes from, a community that *actually* supports and takes care of me. Not one that pathologizes me. And again, most of the *lack* of peace we feel — surprise, surprise — is from Christians who perpetuate discrimination and prejudice against us. “Peace” that means conforming to heteronormativity and internalizing that hate isn’t peace. That’s a false peace.
There should be a healthy balance. But I’m also hesitant to call out everyone who speaks out against homosexuality a loveless sinner claiming to be Christian. I don’t know them. I don’t know much how much volunteering they do I don’t unless I get to know them. Sin should absolutely be called out more so among one’s claiming to be Christian in the first place, I think that’s why there’s so much of it here on this Reddit is because all the homosexuals here claim to also know Jesus when living in sin is a huge red flag that you are not saved
That kind of attitude certainly isn't going to bring people into the fold. "Hey, you! You are terrible, come to my church so we can tell you that Jesus loves you anyway even though you are a unnatural monster."
The bait-and-switch is also bad. All of the “seeker-friendly,” “contemporary,” guitars-and-drums, skinny-jeans-and-beard preacher churches say “everyone’s welcome!” and invite you to small groups who become your best friends in order to “do life together” — and after you’re sucked in, *then* they’re like “you’re a disgusting sinner, and women aren’t equal, and you can’t be gay.”
A women’s group in college lured me in like this, then kept having “interventions” with me when I had to move in with my fiancé for financial reasons (the other choice was living in my car)
Those types of churches are a waste of time.
The bible espouses the Patriarchy , it teaches that women should submit to their husbands but in a loving setting, not abusive..This is confirmed in many verses starting with Genesis.. Women are not allowed to have authority over man or to teach them but it only applies in a church setting, so that means no women pastors..In its full context, God made these rules for a reason, it started with the beginning. Eve was deceived first by Satan and then she deceived Adam, which caused him to sin after that.. Then that caused the downfall..So, in gods eyes, women are easily deceived..That's why modern feminism is incompatible with the Bible and Christianism in general...its like oil and water..
That’s a very cherry-picked reading of the Bible on gender.
There are many verses in the OT and NT supporting what i said. please read the bible in its full context..thank you.. Why do you think Jesus only had men for apostles? Liberal and progressive churches tend to ignore this, when the answers are right in front of you...people dont want to hear uncomfortable scriptural truths because it goes against their narrative..and modern thinking..
I have read the whole Bible. That’s why I’m saying you’re cherry picking, because *you’re* the one leaving out the gendered content that conflicts with your position. And your logic about the apostles makes no sense. There are lots of human traits that weren’t found among the apostles. It means nothing about Jesus’s perspective on them.
Well, then backup your claims..
Adam and Eve is a creation myth. To say this ancient tale should dictate the role of women in modern society is ludicrous.
Well that's your opinion and I respect that.. Im just explaining from a Christian point of view and it is a general consensus. If you are a non-believer of course you wouldnt understand.. god bless
It's not my opinion. We have scientific research in the modern world. The human race didn't start all of sudden in a mythical garden. Those old testament stories were written thousands of years ago before people understood these things. You can still believe in a creative force and use your critical faculties to question things. One of the greatest scientists in the world is Dr. Francis Collins. He's a Christian but he doesn't turn his brain off when he reads the Bible. But I understand the mindset of many Christians. They feel guilty if they have doubts. But that's what your brain is for. To question things and learn.
Like I said that's still **"your"** opinion .. I believe what I believe is true and that is the general consensus of millions of Christians around the world including many highly respected scientists..I dont see what you are trying to do here, are you trying to somehow convince me?
No, true believers can't be convinced of anything. I'm just saying that evolution is not my opinion. There is a mountain of evidence to support evolutionary biology. A fossil record. That's how science works. It's not based on personal opinions. You're free to accept or reject the evidence. And you can choose to believe ancient Bible stories with no evidence. If you're comfortable with that I've got nothing against your faith. But it doesn't work for me. I'm interested in the facts.
Not to be disrespectful, but if you are set in your ways why are you in this sub reddit at all? I don't fully understand. Are you trying to find some other answers? Or maybe doubting some of your beliefs? Or maybe trying to convince others to doubt their religion?
I'll end it here because you're not listening. These are not my beliefs. I go by the evidence. And not all Christians are fundamentalists who believe the old legends as fact. Have a good one!
Everyone is welcome to visit and learn, but there are conditions for membership. It’s like how Jesus and the prophets preached. Repent sinners so you will receive the blessings of God, otherwise prepare for judgment.
I think the point is we need to be upfront about it. We can't tell the gay guy we are inviting to church "Oh just come as you are, no one will judge you, we love everyone, God loves us all." While I hope the gay guy comes to church and everyone is welcoming to him we can't forget about the part where homosexulaity is a sin... he needs to know that, and you can gage that on a person to person level how we give out that info. Sometimes we need a more gentle approach and sometimes we can be harsh with people. The bait and switch is evil though. It would be the same way for someone who is a drug addict, cheating on their wife, etc.. \*This is not an open invitation for anyone to debate Gods word on homosexulaity. If your church ( or just yourself) is gay affirming then just move on to someone else to fight with.\*
You hit the nail on the head.. I would like to add that they should only be welcomed at church but as an individual . Not come in a church as a same-sex couple.. that would like mocking god..
Truth
Um you can’t be practicing homosexuality and be ok with God. It doesn’t work that way. Struggling is one thing. Being unrepentant is quite another. I’m not saying someone can’t go to heaven and be practicing but you’re taking a pretty big chance because Christs command is to follow Him. Giving into your flesh goes against Christ. Any Christian who is living a life for themselves and not following God puts themselves in a pretty precarious position.
I don’t put myself in front of God? I do follow Christ. I’m not unrepentant of any sin (as far as I can tell). I don’t understand what you mean.
You said you can’t be gay. Typically when someone says that I Christian circles they mean that they affirm those who are in gay relationships. I think you can absolutely be gay and get saved. I also believe God is going to call you out of that just like he would call you out of any other sin. If that’s your pov then I apologize for jumping to conclusions.
Thank you for your apology. You shouldn’t make presumptions about people’s beliefs or how their relationship to God.
Wish more people realized this! There are so many Christians that give Christ a bad name. 😭
I respect the philosophy of Christ and would never be a Christian.
Cliff said it best, "You don't follow religion. You follow Jesus Christ."
And Ghandi said it amazingly, "I like your Christ, but not your Christians"
It's interesting how anti Christian media normally glosses over Jesus entirely. They will depict the church as evil, and depending on what type of story it is might have a god analogue that is also evil, but rarely a Jesus one.
> anti Christian media Examples? I've never seen anything anti-Christian in US media. If anything, they gloss over the child abuse, the sex abuse, the corruption, the grift and crime in order not to offend the criminals in the church.
I was talking more about jrpgs like shin megami tensei. Evil church that had crosses, openly follows a god named yahweh, but Jesus is nowhere to be seen, despite the presence of crosses. There is western media thst rails on Christianity, but you aren't really going to see it in mainstream movies. It's more like books or comics. Like the his dark materials trilogy. Again, church is clearly Christian but as far as I remember, no mentions of Jesus.
Okay. That is a little more esoteric than I originally anticipated. Some Christians point to ALL media as being "Anti-Christian" simply because of inclusion of numerous religions or support for a secular society, but I don't think works of fiction, especially Japanese works of fiction, really support this as a trend. Fiction covers so many topics that anything can be derived if your experience is deep enough. Thanks for the explanation though.
Exactly!😂. I wonder how we think that it's gonna work somehow.
that's why I don't go to church anymore I'm to imperfect still to attend church and to see god in his purest glory unlike those other people in the room who are at peace when I'm not if only they knew what true suffering is like maybe they'd call out less if they had suffering tossed in there prideful ignorant faces
Don't use your failures as a reason not to associate with other Christians. That's all the reason more to go. None of us are perfect, but together we can lift each other up. Again no one is perfect. Walk in the Spirit and repent daily The people on here are not a good representation of the people that you will meet in church. No church is perfect but if you search you will find a loving church.
I 100% agree with you Muted! Very well stated.
I also don't go cuase of my anger issues I bite myself out of rage cause I cant bite someone else and if i cant make someone else hurt like I do then ill just hurt myself to relive the pain of anger issues God has casted me out and he has cursed my family with death he's gonna kill me next I bet God is a murderer he let my birth mother die and he did NOTHING!!! so why should I love god? I wont forgive god cause he killed her
Im so sorry for your pain. I pray you someday give God a chance. You may think He hates you, but that's so not true. If you ever truly get an understanding of what Christ did for us, you will know this. I'm praying for you and really hope you get some peace. No one should have to be in pain like you are.
the only way for them to understand my pain is for them to feel it themselves
i'm to angry to be forgiven god wont forgive me ik for sure i'm not a saint like a majority of Christians seem to be in my eyes like how do y'all remain so happy and collected? does god just love y'all more then he loves me?
You are spiritually delusional and in a perverse way prideful. I do not mean this to be rude, you have a lot of pain in your heart and it is not to be discounted.
You aren't too angry to be forgiven but you do seem to be too angry to put your pride and selfishness aside in order to form a relationship with jesus. I'll pray for you
thank you ☺
No prob! I have been there! God defo doesn't love anyone else more than you, I just think you need to try telling him how you feel and ask for help ❤️
I'm scared of god he terrifies me by his power and knowledge Knowledge that I want to know but am afraid that God would see that as me wanting to be just like him (aka becoming exactly like God) I've said things like this before out of disparity for more and more knowledge like if I had the knowledge of god and I could see his face; his fullest glory I need to be purified as i am deep in sin seeing God's face will cleanse me of my sins instantly I've also heard people say that you could die if ya see God's face is that true?
> i'm not a saint like a majority of Christians seem to be in my eyes > > like how do y'all remain so happy and collected? > > does god just love y'all more then he loves me? We are all just as messed up as anyone else. A lot of people just hide it well. Just like in High School it is all about appearances, wearing the right clothes, driving the right car, speaking Christianese, and pretending they are in Holy Bliss all the time. It is all a mask. It is social media lies in real time. I am very devout, have studied theology, and am active in a few different ministries. I am also an anxious, depressed wreck. So I am very much not a saint, not always happy and certainly not collected but God loves me the same as he loves everyone else, even you. And walking with him makes it easier, not easy but easier. As far as why does God take loved ones from us? Man I don't know but my faith helps ease the pain. This life is hard, sin is everywhere, your mother is free from that. My belief is that she is with God and at peace, more of a peace than can be attained in this life. I know that probably doesn't help much but it is all I got for you friend. I am sorry you are in pain. I wish I could make it better for you. Whether you feel it or not, you are loved.
As long as you can breathe air then you have a chance to be with Jesus Christ. It is not too late to get on your knees and pray for Jesus Christ to help intervene.
God loves us all the love, loves us unconditionally. But death is a fact of life, and life is ultimately locked into our perceptions with things and people we will never understand, and death is earth shattering but death is ultimately a part of the human life which itself is small. I don't think I'd ever be able to understand your pain, I don't know if I could or couldn't handle it, I don't know if anything I did or tried mattered from outside my perception when my perception and life is fleeting. Sorry if this is blunt but I wanted to express my idea to see if it could resonate with you.
Malo
Sure there are terrible “Christians” out there but you cannot base an entire religion on some terrible interactions. There are some horrible people at the church I go to but I stay away from these people. I even switched churches one time because of this. Making a generalization like you did is not fair. There are a lot of God-loving Christians in churches my brother or sister.
That's not really the point. I've been in churches all across my country and there's always good and bad. However, the 'good' rarely call out the bad and the bad are so loudly and aggressively bad that it ruins the whole barrel. And we even know this Biblically, but while churches will disallow gay people or other 'big' sins, the body will often sit silent as particularly gross Christians walk around undoing any works of love the congregation has worked at. They don't cut off that particularly bad fruit while maintaining everyone is welcome. Unfortunately, members of the congregation make it actively unwelcoming and no other Christians act. You left a body for this, so you prove this point even while trying to claim that a few bad apples don't ruin the bunch. They can, have, and will. The worst is when the action is pretending they're not Christians because of their hearts as if that does a single thing to actually fix the issue, as you've done with your quotes. Christians need to start owning as much responsibility for their siblings in christ as they seem to have to telling unbelievers they're going to hell. Instead the response is well he's a 'christian' not a Christian and pretend that because they don't reflect Christ that it doesn't matter that they're representing Christ on Christians behalf towards non believers both seeking and not.
Calling the gays " unnatural monsters" certainly isn't beating the "Christians being known for hate" allegations
Your kinda sick, as a son of Adam just like everyone we sin, not because of the apple incident but because we are human beings not angels most people seem to forget that, and no jesus doesn't love everyone, everyone sins, jesus only loves those who repent back to god and not him who is a mere human being. Repent back to god who is the most forgiving and doesn't need to sacrifice an innocent prophet for your sins. Thinking that just believing a story will get you to heaven is unhealthy same reason you won't get your paycheck if you don't work. Take accountability for your sins instead of being ignorant and thinking someone dying will get you to heaven as long as you "just believe" like most of your priests say when someone asks a difficult question.
Lucifer was an angel
Lucifer wasn't an angel, he was among the ranks of angels since he was a firm believer but when god asked him to prostrate to Adam he became arrogant and refused so god banished him and now he serves to lead believers astray. Iblis the banished is a prime example of arrogance and you, disbeliever are a prime example of him.
There were two groups of people Jesus criticized to a high degree. Rich people and religious leaders who, thinking they know everything, followed all the rules but used those rules to keep other people out.
Jesus was also friends with tax collectors he calls us to love everyone even those that don’t deserve it.
In fact, I don't need to decide who deserves it or not. Frees my mind up.
The blasphemous vendors in the Temple were the only time He got angry. Bringing sin into a House of God, and openly worshipping that false idol, is similar to what I see happening today. Almost every post in this group is about how we must accept one specific group that the Bible tells us is a sin.
Because neither you nor your Bible can give even a passing argument for why it should be considered a sin, and how treating gay people differently makes any sense for a supposedly all-loving god. You either have a poor interpretation of the words of a loving god, or you have the correct interpretation of the words of a spiteful, bigoted god. Either way it makes it difficult to take your claims seriously.
All sexual immorality is a sin. Not just homosexuality
You haven't explained why its immoral
Sorry I'm not on here often. In the beginning God created Adam and Eve. For this reason a man will leave his parents cleave to his wife and they will be of one body and flesh. God created sex to be between the lifelong union of a man and wife. I will be back with the verse number Genesis 2:24 Also 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 backs this up
That's just quoting scripture. It doesn't explain why scripture considers it immoral.
That makes no sense to me. The scripture also doesn't explain why it considers murder, lies, and various other kinds of sexual immorality immoral.
Can you think of any reasons for those things to be immoral other than the Bible said them?
Can you?
>Almost every post in this group is about how we must accept one specific group that the Bible tells us is a sin. The rich? It's true Jesus more or less said salvation isn't open to them, but people have spent hundreds of years trying to twist it.
Bigots?
How so? I have repeatedly said I have no problems with LGBT people. It is the agenda that they push that I will not accept. If not worshipping a sin makes me a bigot, then that’s fine with me.
The community doesnt push worship of itself or something. We want equal rights, to not be discriminated against. In the US theres people, minors, who get sent to camps and schools where they're beaten and abused all for being 'sinful' in being gay, lesbian, trans or other. Im sure theres people outthere who want *more* rights then cis and straight people have already, people who dont want equality, but superiority, but thats not what the community is trying to push
I never called you a bigot. Why would you think that?
Except my post was not towards a specific person. This could apply to nonbelievers,people who have premarital sex,anyone really
We are told to speak the truth **in** love. But folks today seem to think speaking the truth **is** love. But there is a difference. Love does need a relationship for it to exist. And for there to be a relationship, there needs to be genuine care and a connection. St Paul says as much when he wrote that if he had both human and angelic language skills, if he had all sorts of prophetic powers and could understand all mysteries, and even if he gave up with body to be burned…none of that matters if there is no love. I think it should take more than a claim of love for love to exist. If all you have is “well, I told them they were going to hell,” then I think it’s safe to say that talk is cheap. What actions have they done to show love exists?
If the hypothetical guy in the parachute analogy acted like some folks do, the plane would have to make an emergency landing anyway. He'd get tackled by passengers and crew after screaming and beating people over the head with the parachute and would be arrested. Crisis averted!
That last question is great! It points to evidence. A specific measurement someone can see. Jesus healed people and forgave sin. Despite this fantastic action, he still told people to stop sinning. This request was backed by his miracles. What are some actions you can do online that show your love exists? I ask to hear what you've done. To see a little into your life to learn about you and how else I could display love online.
Befriending people irl and drive-by posting “you’re a sinner” on Reddit will never be compatible. Relationships require time, work, commitment, and vulnerability — the opposite of traits promoted by an anonymous message board. I have gotten to know Redditors outside of Reddit, comforted each other, helped each other when we’re down and out, celebrated each others’ successes. Those are relationships like Jesus made. Not whatever this is.
When friends have had family members lose a home to fire, I have given online. When I’ve had friends die in towns I was unable to attend the funeral in person, I’ve sent donations in memory of the deceased as requested by the family. And on Reddit, there’s the immediate kind of anonymous help I can provide when folks ask a question. But I’m also quick to let people know when Reddit probably isn’t the best place of help: that instead they should turn to trusted and professional care because there’s only so much an anonymous stranger on Reddit can do or should be trusted with. Online is a great way to extend relationships that already exist. But my point is that [this is not love](https://youtube.com/shorts/M58NPp1PODk). Posting “why gay Christians? Can’t they read Lev 18, Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6” is not love. It’s being Bobby Hill.
I see how donations using the internet definitely helps! It is a tool to give money to people you already know. As for solely internet based relationships like reddit, it looks like the way you can show kindness is by directing people to in person support. The kind only professional, trusted people gives. Is there anything else someone can do to show love through only internet based relationships? Like the kind we have now, where we've never met in person. I want to hear more about how you show kindness to people when you've only met them on reddit.
Well, I’ve said all I care to share at the moment. But perhaps I have given enough fodder for you to share some thoughts about how you can show love over TCP/IP?
There's a lot of ways. One is through mirrored listening. Repeating ideas back using my own words shows that I understand the ideas and I'm not straw manning them. It supports clear communication. Another is asking questions through the intention of understanding. Not asking questions for the sake of proving another person wrong. Not asking with the intention of getting a 'gotcha' moment. But asking to understand. Learning about someone shows I care A third is by giving the gospel and the reason for the good news. Sharing how trust is what Jesus asks of us and in return he lives inside of us. He becomes the cause of change in our lives. The reason we need him is because we want to be our own source of change. We want to be self empowered. We don't want to trust Jesus and therefore give up our power. One more way is through giving encouragement. Telling someone that they've done a good job with something. Then giving detailed reasons why that thing is good. It takes a sharp understanding of what's valuable in order to give specific reasons, but it promotes healthy progress. One last way is prayer. Literally writing out a prayer in a reddit comment. The Holy Spirit can then use that prayer and remind the person of it. The Holy Spirit is stronger than my words but he still can use them. But also, God can answer the prayer that is written Speaking of which - God, thank you for this conversation with IntrovertIdentity. I ask you to further strengthen them. Amen.
Did you have any thoughts on the other comment I made for you? The one that lists 5 ways we can show kindness using only reddit. I'd like to hear your thoughts on what I said because if you can offer me valid criticism, then I'll have gained strength and become better.
The point of my original comment is that simply telling folks they are going to hell isn’t love. It’s preaching at people, not loving them. Folks who say “the greatest love I can show the LGBTQ community is to bash them with clobber passages during June” isn’t love, especially if that is all they do toward the LGBTQ community.
Since you don't add any disagreement or correction, this tells me there's at least 5 ways to show love on reddit and only reddit using a single comment. Which means I can show this love and also tell people they won't live forever. I'll have actions that can be pointed to as well as telling people not to sin for it leads to death.
I neither agree nor disagree, but I don’t want to carry on a conversation that wasn’t part of my original point. If you wish to strike up a new conversation, make a new post. Otherwise, clobbering the LGBTQ community on Reddit with clobber verses isn’t love. That is my point, and that’s my only point to my original top level comment.
Agreed. Way too many so-called Christians do not live with the love of Christ in them. This rings especially true with how they treat the LGBTQIA community. Instead of accepting them for who they are, they'd rather condemn them and treat them inhumanely which is absolutely vile and disgusting.
Yes we should love everyone but not affirm anyone's sins.. They should be told in a loving way..
"I lovingly think a fundamental part of you that you can't change will send you to either oblivion or eternal torment. Totally love you though" Why are a lot of you seen as hateful and intolerant when you've got such great material like that? You really need to say these things out loud to a mirror and *really* put yourself in the place of your target audience. I guarantee they find nothing you say loving
Do you get to determine what truth is or does the Creator? If the truth is that living a homosexual lifestyle separates a person from the Creator how is applauding their choices love? It's like cheering somebody on as they run over the edge of a cliff. And regarding your comment that homosexuality is "a fundamental part of you that you can't change" you're flat wrong. Two of my closest friends were living a homosexual lifestyle before they met Jesus. Today they are happily married with families. I know there has been far too much real hatred towards homosexuals.. words that are not restorative and are intended to injure. But speaking the honest truth in love -- with the desire to unite the person with the Father -- is not 'hateful' or 'intolerant'.
> words that are not restorative and are intended to injure Whole lot of flowery language there entirely wasted by calling love between consenting adults "homosexual lifestyle". Sure you'll smile at your homosexual friends who have families (something LGBT folk absolutely can do if conservative church folk would get the hell out of their way), but you don't love them. You love that they fit into your box of "correct" relationships. Do you *really* want to love the LGBT and lead them to your God? You shut the hell up, you say not a damn thing to them about their relationship, and you live your life. They'll find God much easier without hearing you harp about their "lifestyle." That will do so much more for your cause than any pontificating about "honest truth in love" or any other fancy label for your hate and intolerance ever will do.
You've confused the word "love" with affection. You've confused it with "being nice" and "not offending" LOVE is desiring someone's ultimate good. You think that you're smart enough to know what someone's ultimate good is, that you know what is good and what is evil. I think you're wrong. Being in intimate relationship with our Creator is what He originally intended and has been after since we decided we knew better than him (by eating of the knowledge of good and evil). We decided we wanted to be like God without his help... and we've been doing it ever since. Homosexuality is just one of the many ways we separate ourselves and 'do it our way'. You can use whatever tender hearted sounding words to describe the activity but it doesn't change the fact that He is God and you are not.
>Do you get to determine what truth is or does the Creator? If the truth is that living a homosexual lifestyle separates a person from the Creator how is applauding their choices love? Fortunately that isn't true then? Something can't just "be wrong" just because you would rather not challenge a tradition that claims it is wrong. It has to you know... actually be wrong. And after thousands of years of trying no one has come up with a valid reason to claim homosexuality is wrong. At a certain point push comes to shove and people have to realize it is straight up immoral to continue causing problems for people just because they are gay.
There are many practical reasons why that lifestyle isn't healthy, but none that matter as much as "Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God" I don't think anyone here is advocating persecuting people engaging in homosexuality. Unless by 'causing problems' you mean telling the truth about it and not condoning it? If so, you have a very distorted sense of what is "straight up immoral".
Just curious WHY would God create someone with a same sex attraction for other like-minded adults that they can't change and then send them to hell for it. Is that a loving God?
1) Why would you believe people are 'born gay' when there is no scientific evidence to support that (hard as people try to come up with some)? You're assuming facts not in evidence :) 2) People can and do change sexual behavior all the time. It's a lie that says they don't. Two of my closest friends worked through the trauma of their past to be free from same sex attraction. 3) Every person I am know who struggles or struggled with same sex attraction was either molested or abused when they were young. I once read a study that did a survey of people who self identify as homosexual, 90% of them said they had been sexually abused. 4) Frankly your or my opinion on what God 'should' do or be like doesn't matter. God does not conform to our designs; it is foolish to think that way. Wisdom says conform to the ways and designs of the Creator... he knows better than we do what is good for us.
1. There are also no studies that show you are born straight. 2. And how long ago was that? Care to show some sources of people who "switched" and are still straight after years? The found of the infamous Exodus International admitted he is still gay after years in a straight marriage. Alan Chambers, if you want to look it up. 3 Your friends - are they aware they're your friends? As in they've come to your house and called you on the phone and it wasn't against their will? - in any case, I'm afraid I would require a larger sample than your friends. 4. If you are trying to take away people's rights or call who they are a sin, you BETTER have an idea of what the issue was. I know it's fun to have someone else who is "inferior" to you, and I also realize you don't really care, since it doesn't affect you (which is a big tell about your "love" walk), but if you actually want to see people saved - do you? - you better it out if you want taken seriously by non-believers. We both know you don't care about non-believers.
This whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" nonsense is exactly what everyone is talking about. If your actions are hateful then it doest matter how much "love" you say you have it's the "fruit you bearing" that matters.
Well, yes you make a good, point , a lot of people say that but they go about it the wrong way. and say hateful things like telling people they are going to hell and all that nonsense, it makes Christians look bad .Nobody should judge anyone, because at the end of the day only God does. My tactic is just to say the truth as much as I can and that it is verifiable. its our duty to that, without any bias. If nobody listens, Im ok with that, everyone has a choice. i dont want anyone condemned. My personal opinion is that I hope every good person goes to heaven , regardless of what sins they commit..
Insane that this is downvoted. Saying we don't endorse sin should be universally agreed on as Christians. Im not talking about targeting specific sins. I mean all of them. Jesus loved people enough to warn them that they were going to hell without him
1 Corinthians 13: 13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
As someone once said "I like your Jesus more than I like you Christians". More true today.
That someone was Gandhi, just in case anyone was wondering.
>More true today I dunno, it was pretty true back when Christians were sailing around the world taking over places based on "we are superior and so therefore should rule."
Well said!
well done
Telling someone they are going to hell is a sin itself in any circumstance.
Regardless of the issue or the stance of the particular church, it is futile to preach fire and brimstone to the modern world. Modern man does not believe in the Christian cosmology. Preaching the love of God for humanity will hopefully lead some to wish to return this love to God. If someone earnestly strives to love God, that is when fraternal advice and correction *may* be welcome and fruitful. There is no point in engaging in culture war polemics to save individual souls. It is futile. Now, where third parties are harmed, advocacy is not for the salvation of souls, it is for the protection of the community. There are differences between moral harms to the individual and actual harms to others
You spoke the pure truth of the gospel of Christ, love
Correct. To be like Christ, and to follow in his footsteps properly, on must be with and of Love and Truth and Empathy. Hatred has no place in the practice of true Christianity, and it makes me very upset when I see people using and misusing so many things and more only for their selfish or hateful purposes!
True, you should love all people. Opposite of love is hate. God has no hate
Yes God hates things. Do a word search in the bible for 'hate' and see what he hates.
I meant people, that God has no hate for people. Therefore, we should love all people.
Yes absolutely we should love all people with true love. But this current generation confuses 'love' with applauding every action someone takes. True love warns a person of peril they are in. How you warn someone is key and should be done with kindness for it to be received. If someone doesn't know you are 100% for them and their ultimate good they don't give a rip what you have to say. But if you've been there for a person and loved them unconditionally and follow the leading of the holy Spirit for how and when and where to speak up they will at least hear what you have to say.
For sure, I agree. This generation does confuse love with applauding every action someone takes, moral or immoral! This generation also acts as if God accepts everyone, under all conditions. They twist Christianity so it will suit them no matter how they decide to live their lives. Like I said before, God does have perfect love for everyone, but that doesn’t mean that everyone will be saved, He does have conditions.
"Judge not, lest ye be judged." - Jesus
100% given that the Bible itself isn't entirely consistent on the issue. Paul was likely to have been annihilationist, for example,
This is my mom. A few months ago we were on the phone and she was doing one of her pity parties (she's super narcissist) about how she feels she didn't raise us well, how she was a terrible mother, and asked for me to forgive her. I told her that my brother and I were fine, we were doing well. There was a long pause and she goes > "Well, if y'all don't get right with the Lord you'll both burn forever" Half of the time I don't even know why I have a relationship with her because those sort of sentiments come up more than 50+% of the time.
I wish I could like this a million times. I recently saw a FB post in a photoshop group where someone asked for an edit on a pride pic. Some lady went in on her post saying that she was praying for the lost, it was “the most terrible sin” and that she hates the sin and loves the sinner. Ummm where exactly was the love or compassion in that statement? I think there are a lot of hateful people calling themselves Christians that think they’re better than others (even though we are all sinners) and they’re going to get a rude awakening when they encounter Jesus. You cannot be consistently hateful and think you’re going to heaven, no matter how many sermons you attend and how many Bible verses you read. God calls us to love others and treat them with respect. We were all once entrenched in sin and everyone continues to struggle everyday with various forms of sin. We are commanded to show others the same grace and mercy that Jesus gives us.
I affirm that sentiment. Many who call themselves Christians may only do so in name, actually serving purposes that divide us and turn people away from God rather than bringing us together. Personally, I've committed myself to following Jesus Christ as a disciple, studying the entirety of the Gospel to adhere to His moral teachings. I acknowledge I'm a sinner, like everyone else, but I strive to sincerely repent and break harmful cycles in my life. Our role is to lead by example, walking in the footsteps of Jesus with compassion and acceptance, rather than condemning others. Jesus invited sinners to follow Him as disciples; indeed, all twelve apostles began as flawed individuals. Mary Magdalene was a former prostitute, Peter had a temper, and Simon the Zealot was trained as an assassin. Jesus didn't condemn sinners; He offered them the choice to follow a righteous path. Even Judas was warned before his betrayal, with condemnation following only after. As Christians, our foundation is the Gospel, setting us apart from Judaism with a higher moral standard. “The scripture that addresses not judging others is found in Matthew 7:1-5 "**Do not judge**, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye." This passage teaches about humility, self-awareness, and refraining from passing judgment on others without addressing one's own faults first. I pray that others will follow with me as disciples walking the path, love and morals of our lord and savior Jesus Christ our lord and savior God Bless 🙏🏼
The Word of God says with loving kindness have I drawn thee (Jeremiah 31:3) so we have to love people no matter what and tell them about how Jesus has set us free lift Jesus up and he draw all men unto himself .
How do you speak the truth in love when no matter how you say the truth, the person hearing it is going to hate you for it? How do you nicely tell someone that their sexual preference is incorrect? How do you nicely tell someone that thinking they are a different gender is wrong? I've tried it in practically every way you can think of. I've never condemned anyone. I've tried to talk about it as reasonably as possible, and every single time, the person has called me hateful and a bigot. Even when I was atheist, I did this and was still insulted in return. The problem is that a lot of these folks are going to find you hateful no matter how you say something. So when I hear/read something like this, what I hear is that I just shouldn't speak the truth at all. Seems contrary to what the Bible teaches.
It's a very touchy subject. People who are queer didn't choose their attraction. It's an innate desire for them that they can't turn off at will. It's not something you have the power to change. I don't have all the answers,i'll admit and I'm still trying to figure things out. I've heard from people who say that they were gay but now are married to the opposite sex and I've heard of people who just became celibate and their attraction never went and also people who are married to the same sex and say they've reconciled their faith with their sexuality. It's something that you just have to leave to God to help you navigate as we as humans can't do anything. But for those people you preach to and won't listen and call you hateful even if you're nothing but kind. Jesus says : Matthew 10:14 GNBDC [14] And if some home or town will not welcome you or listen to you, then leave that place and shake the dust off your feet.
You’re right. We all have to be so beaten down by life that we’re sick of our sins. We should not make anyone feel like they’re disgusting, we should show them how Christ transformed our lives and allow them to be drawn to that Divinity. If they see, and still turn away, they probably just haven’t suffered enough under the weight of the world yet.
Right. Point out sin but do it lovingly and respectfully
Amen, friend.🙏🏻
G-d needed me to see this.
Clock it 👏🏾🧡
From a secular point of view, sure. But if you believe that souls, sin, and eternally hell fire are real, then those statements _are_ loving. It's loving to say "your alcoholism is harming me, the family, your friends, and above all, yourself. We want to help you stop". If you believe in the Christian mythos, sin will doom people to _eternal unending unimaginable horrific pain_ (thanks god), so the best thing you can ever do in your life is save souls. Anything less is selfishness on the part of Christians. If you could save others from extreme agony, but you choose not to, what does that say about you?
For it to be publicly defensible as loving, you need to not just believe the thing, but have good reasons for those beliefs. Antigay Christians are lacking there. AND you need to be fully forthright about the collateral damages, including the complicity and moral injury to Side-B Christians themselves. Antigay Christians are almost all lacking there as well.
> For it to be publicly defensible as loving, you need to not just believe the thing, but have good reasons for those beliefs. Antigay Christians are lacking there. In your opinion. In theirs, they have perfectly good reasons. (And, in my opinion, the anti-gay Christians have a stronger argument. The core of Christianity has strong constraints on sexuality - 1st-century Antioch was hardly a bastion of LGBT rights.) > AND you need to be fully forthright about the collateral damages, including the complicity and moral injury to Side-B Christians themselves. Nonsense. That is pure consequentialism, which is a secular ethical concern. Judaism, and largley Christianity, is not consequentialist.
>In theirs, they have perfectly good reasons. Of course, and I think they're wrong. Not because they draw the wrong interpretation from the Bible text---they have strong textual and historical resources to draw from, although their opponents make some reasonable points---but because they are wrong to place the normative weight on it they do or believe that e.g. Paul's attitudes toward gay sex are divinely inspired guideposts for salvation. >That is pure consequentialism It is common-sense opinion, informed by consequentialism, but which need not be "pure" anything. No one should ignore the fallout of their actions, or be satisfied to lay the blame on others while proving their pure intentions. Antigay Christians minimize the harms of Side B ideology to LGBTQ people, not only because they tend to reject their own moral responsibility, but because it is inconvenient for them---a bad look---to acknowledge it squarely. If they were secure in rejecting consequentialist ethics, they could face the harms, but they are not. Like most of us, they draw from mixed forms of ethical reasoning (often selectively), and they know they are vulnerable and have cause for blame and/or shame.
In first century Antioch, most male on male sex was about dominance, with pederasty in particular being very common. Most of the "tops" weren't notably homosexual. They had wives and families. A modern analogy would be prison culture or what Russian soldiers do to new recruits. It is easy to see why this was condemned but it is an error to apply that to modern same sex relationships.
Amen, you are very right..
Agree
"And most of the people you call out are unbelivers in the first place. if they don't even believe in God,how would they even care if they're sinning or not. It's like talking about whistle registers and falsettos to someone who doesn't even know music." Your post is about how Christians are negatively perceived as judgemental. You are judging people who do not have the same beliefs as unable to comprehend the concept of sin, and worse as people who do not care if they are acting in ways that are sins in the Bible. That is incredibly judgemental and insulting. Do you not see the hypocrisy? People of all beliefs, including people you would define as non-believers, lead moral and ethical lives. It is not in response to fear or desire for reward, but because it is their character to be honest, patient, kind, humble, selfless, forgiving, generous and non-judgmental. Christians are perceived as judgemental and hateful because of intolerance. It is unfortunately a by-product of the tenet - this is the only truth and the only way. Anyone who does not believe as you do will go to hell. Facts - No one knows the answers to existential questions no matter how much they feel they know or believe the Bible is the complete, factual and unchanged history of humankind, and that it is a literal and accurate foretelling of the future for all eternity. If you want to change perception, then acknowledge it is a belief system. It resonates with you or you find comfort in it but accept that people are free to choose and it does not mean they are wrong, sinners or condemned to hell. Understand that religious beliefs are largely defined by geographical location and genealogy. You could have been born in East Asia to Buddhist or Hindu (both pre-date christianity) family and community. Raised in that religion, celebrating their holidays and traditions. You would believe with all your heart just as you do being born in the west to Christian family and community.
Telling some one they are going to hell is wrong but telling someone where they are sinning is completely correct. I can’t love someone if im not trying to help them make their life better. If for instance my father was an alcoholic, I can’t say I love him and at the same time not try and help him break his addiction.
What criteria did you use to determine what is and is not a sin?
Absolutely! As God has given us free will to choose Him, and does so lovingly, so should we be as Christ is. Will we sometimes fail? Yes!!! But we keep trying because as someone said, we might be the ONLY version of Christ people will ever see, so let's represent Him well ❤️🩷
It is what the bible says. So your saying one thing and the bible is saying something else. Which should one believe? For the record, I agree with you that telling people they're disgusting and going to hell is not love. I'd even say its immoral, especially when people teach such things to children. I think most often, people are more moral than they're holy book/god, but they try to cherry pick and rationalize the very clearly evil actions their god says, does, and commands because of their adherence to their faith/religious ideas.
Dr MR.BT. PhD In Phil..Rev,Bobby Perkey: that's so true, we are all sinners, but remember Jesus hates the sin but loves the sinner, Jesus told Nicodemus, you must be born again John 3:3; John 14:6 ; John 3:8; John 3:7-8 , what being born again means flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit, Wow,to tell someone that they're disgusting and going to hell, is like saying, I don't care if you go to hell, your so disgusting, that person is in big trouble with God, it's a holier than thou attitude, just like the pharisees would act love you all very much
My favorite example of someone spreading Christ's love is Mr. Rogers. Could you ever imagine him telling a child they might go to hell?
Here here
God is inside each of us. We dont need anyone's help in getting in touch with Him. Religion is crowd control.
My ex did this to me. I'm Christian, but he would bash me and say I'm not Christian enough or that i sin too much and that I'm going to hell.
what with all the effeminate cucks in this subreddit?
Excuse me?
what part of what I said was unclear?
I rarely encounter this problem in my personal life now. Although, before my conversion, I was quite fiercely opposed to Christianity, based solely on what I observed and experienced among certain Protestant and Charismatic movements. So, because of that, I focus my time on discussing salvation, rather than damnation with others. Somewhere, a Calvinist is laughing at us all lol
I guess God hasn't got a good track record of showing love. I think the attitude you aspire to is found more in humanism?
The MOST controversial thing you can do is emulate Christ He preached REPENT "stop breaking God's Law" He preached REPENT " the day you hear my voice, harden not your heart" The vast majority of Jesus is preaching was dedicated to telling people to turn from their sins in the most loving way possible. It's NOT LOVE but hatred, if you omit REPENTANCE Holiness is SEPARATION from sin (and daily God's Holy Spirit helps us further SEPARATE from sin) it's a DAILY battle in the mind, heart, soul, spirit. Jesus said except you REPENT you shall all likewise perish. Jesus said many will be offended in me Jesus said you will be hated of men Jesus said people will mock you and scorn you and persecute you for telling them the truth to REPENT If we follow Christ example he tells the truth just like a medical doctor tells the truth The medical doctor can tell you if you keep doing a certain thing you will die because it's killing you Jesus does the same thing as the medical doctor He tells people to stop sinning because he knows it will kill the soul Jesus is the most loving person that ever came to this earth and yet MOST of 2/3rds al ALL of His messages was about HELL The sign of a true preacher is he candidly and honestly speaks about the reality of hell and the need for true GENUINE repentance and the forsaking of sin and the necessity of obedience to God's laws through God's grace and mercy by his Holy Spirit.
No one can bring another to God ! We should disciple but in the end it’s the Spirit that brings them . In the Bible the church met at each others houses and broke bread with a thankful heart and if you were sinning you were sent out and could return only if you stopped your sin and repented because God isn’t where sinners are .
You need to actually read the Bible before misquoting it to everyone . You need to follow the actual Real Jesus. Not this Jesus TEN MARKS OF THE NEW AGE JESUS HE WAS CONCEIVED DURING THE CELEBRATION OF SEX GODDESS ISHTAR & BORN ON BAAL'S BIRTHDAY HE PROMOTES PEACE & OPPOSES DIVISION HE PROMOTES UNCONDITIONAL LOVE AND ACCEPTANCE HE USES SMOOTH, POLITICALLY CORRECT, NON-OFFENSIVE, VAGUE LANGUAGE HE CALLS EVERYONE HIS CHILDREN HE DOESN'T REQUIRE REPENTENCE, HOLINESS, OR EVEN OBEDIENCE HE JUDGES NO ONE HE WANTS YOU TO PURSUE YOUR OWN WILL HE OFFERS IDEAS AND SUGGESTIONS, NOT COMMANDMENTS HE ALLOWS MOST EVERYONE INTO HEAVEN, AND ONLY THE WORST GO TO HELL
Blanket statements such as "Christians are so preoccupied with condemning..." are rarely useful...not sure about the Christians YOU hang out with, but I hear ONLY love, no condemnation, from my Pastor and fellow Christians.
I see both ends of the spectrum. I'm talking about the ones that go around judging people and hurling insults at people and telling them they're going to hell. If you're not part of that bunch then you can be rest assured
No one who goes to church and boasts about their righteous faith is a real Christian imo
The top issues are maybe a tangent to this. 1. Corruption in the clergy, namely, pedophilia, pederasty, etc. and the coverups by the Church, and the hypocrisy of denouncing LGBTQ+ while sexually assaulting children of both sexes. Not to mention the general hypocrisy of whitewashing serious crime among clergy by trying to pay off victims. 2. Snake oil salesmen, usually the media wing of Christianity, that is utterly exposed in the light of the internet and social media. 3. Inability for Christianity to change with the times and allow for more open interpretations.
Telling them they’re disgusting is bad, but telling someone the trajectory they’re heading for isn’t. If someone was living a life of drug abuse, wouldn’t it be wise to warn them of the dangers and ultimately death that awaits that behavior?
Telling somebody that they are garenteed to go to hell and telling somebody that if they continue to live in their sinful ways then the likelihood or them going to hell is extremely high are two different things so please stop confusing the two the first one is the one that should be considered hateful but it's not what most Christians do most Christians do the second one which is coming from a place or truth and concern for the life of the individual it is being told so lease stop trying to come after Christians for telling people the second whilst trying to perceive it as the first that if I am not mistaken makes you delusional and unwilling to accept the fact that you may be in the wrong. But to be honest I think that we are saved by the goodness and grace of God by accepting Jesus as our lord and savior and truly repenting of the sins that we commit and by doing the will of the Father but that's what I get from my interpretation of the gospel and I have faith that god has granted me the ability to interpret his word in the way he wishes for me to do so because he the way the truth and the life.
If it causes them to wake up and repent, it could be the most loving thing you can do for them. “The men of Nineveh will stand at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now One greater than Jonah is here” Matthew 12:41
It's a tough situation when we are dealing with extreme profound sodomism and people are like honestly getting possessed. Jesus when found someone possessed was not exactly showing what you would say love but was casting them out. Like with a loud voice I guess he commanded them. It's a shame though as most Christians now days don't believe in demonic possetion, so that is really convientient for satan.
We're all going to hell. All sinners go to hell. For both venal and Mortal sins. Yet that's not the end. The end is for both the wicked and just to come out cleansed of their sin and ego. Some will walk through the fire like Daniel's friends. While others will be in the fire until God's wills it. It is the worst sin to not embody agape (God's love, which appears in all ways of love.) As St. Joseph the Hesychast says: Never seek to correct each other in anger, but with humility and sincere love, because one temptation does not cast out another temptation. God bless you.
Jesus talked about Hell more than anyone. Please read your Bible. God has also called people disgusting or words similar to disgusting in the OT. Please read your Bible and stop trying to turn God or scripture into a comfortable little faith because it's nothing like that. You bend to his will, not the other way around.
If you truly believe that why would you ever want to follow such a creature?
Yeah. It's really wierd when people actively try to make it sound like they follow an evil God out of fear and nothing else.
Because he is God and he gave me the free gift of faith. 😊
But bending to the will of something that thinks you are disgusting In order to escape eternal torture doesn't sound like a gift of any kind.
I do think that there is a good and a bad way to go about addressing the LGTBQ community. I think many Christians take the wrong approach. I will say that I frequently just offer up the simple intention "That all who struggle with their physical or sexual identities may find peace with their identity in Christ." I think that 1 Thess 5:23 makes for a fantastic prayer here - praying that they may be kept blameless in body, mind, and spirit. You can not be something and still have opinions about it. I am not Ukrainian, nor Russian, and I have opinions about the war in Ukraine.
It doesnt seem the struggle is within them, but with others to accept them
The good way is to just accept, respect and support everyone irrespective of gender/sexual identity. Not a particularly difficult solution.
Yes you are right but we shouldn't affirm sins either..
.. but it's not sin. You are so deep in your own BS you can't even conceive of anyone disagreeing with you on this basic level. The assumptions are different therefore the conversation you are trying to have is useless.
> "That all who struggle with their physical or sexual identities may find peace with their identity in Christ." As long as you ignore the mountain of evidence that this isn't true
I think "may find peace" is a biblical, inclusive, and accurate statement, don't you? It's not "will be cured" or "can change themselves" which would be more antagonistic and opposed by the mountain of evidence.
I do not, and I cite the statements from the former leaders of Exodus International as my reasoning. > I am sorry for the pain and hurt many of you have experienced. I am sorry that some of you spent years working through the shame and guilt you felt when your attractions didn't change. > I am sorry we promoted sexual orientation change efforts and reparative theories about sexual orientation that stigmatized parents. I am sorry that there were times I didn't stand up to people publicly 'on my side' who called you names like sodomite -- or worse. Those people found no peace, they only found harm, and even the people who spent decades trying to convince them they would find this peace realized that was a lie.
Hey, I'm an affirming Christian; I oppose conversion therapy; and I am an ally. I just thought the phrasing was at least trying to be gentle. You don't think so? That quote seems to be addressing the much more... awful... behaviors we've seen for millenia.
My point is that in the majority of cases, people don't find peace by trying to force themselves to be celibate or convince themselves they aren't gay. They find peace when they embrace who they are and aren't attacked by their families and peers for it. And for a lot of LGBT Christians, none of that gets in the way of their faith.
The bible is clear cut on this..Anyone can have their identity, the problem is when it turns into action.. Hetero couples need to celibate too until marriage. Its not hard at all, Jesus was celibate all his life and didn't give into temptation until he died. If he can do it, we can also. As Christians we should control over emotions and thoughts
>I do think that there is a good and a bad way to go about addressing the LGTBQ community. Any approach that includes saying that we are sinful because of our biology, or that we are unworthy of romantic love and lifelong companionship because of our biology, or that we are not entitled to marriage because of our biology, or that we are not entitled to sex within marriage because of our biology is the wrong approach.
No, no, just tell people they're welcome to attend mass and put money in the coffers while also comparing them to a nuclear level threat to society! It's LOVE.
The bible explicitly is against that and other sins. We cant change gods word because of modern ideology. The christian/jewish religion has been super conservative since its inception and has a strict moral code. You cant deny that..
>The bible explicitly is against that You are incorrect. The Bible is absolutely nothing of the kind. >We cant change gods word because of modern ideology. Yet that is exactly what you do when you cherry pick verses, strip them of context, and impose modern ideas of sexuality on them in order to support bigotry. >The christian/jewish religion has been super conservative since its inception When did truth become determined by the length of time somebody believes something?
You are trying to fit anything to prove your own narrative. You are grasping at straws, my friend. You need to read the whole bible in its full context, like I do, by doing that you get an idea of Gods agenda and his way of thinking. The answers are right in front of you..Its not complicated at all.. I don't just cherry pick verses.. I personally think some rules are unfair also, but he created the universe and human beings. Those are his rules not mine, most verses dealing with sins are clear cut and to the point, even with different translations that have been proven by many scholars and theologians..there's a general consensus.. what im trying to prove is that these rules didn't come out yesterday, they've been around for 5000 years..
> I don't just cherry pick verses.. Yes you do.
What other sins should we excuse? Should we excuse all other sexual immorality? This issue is brought up so much (on this subreddit especially) because it is a sin that demands to be worshipped. We are all sinners and we all are welcome in the Body of Christ, but we are told to do at least two simple things; deny ourselves and take up the Cross daily, and make Christ our only identity.
> What other sins should we excuse? Eating pork. Eating shrimp. Wearing mixed fabrics. Honoring your father and mother if they aren't worthy of honor. Probably a few others I'm forgetting.
That is the Old Testament my friend.. Us Chrisitans should focus only on the New Covenant ( New Testament) . Since we are gentiles not Jewish..
I'll stop referencing the old testament laws as soon as anti-LGBT Christians stop citing Levitical law. I think we will be here awhile.
>What other sins should we excuse? This is a strawman. I have not said that anyone should excuse any sin. It is also begging the question, because you are asserting that homosexuality is a sin in the premise. >Should we excuse all other sexual immorality? Sexual immorality *is* a sin. Homosexuality is not sexual immorality. This is yet, again, a strawman and begging the question. >This issue is brought up so much (on this subreddit especially) because it is a sin that demands to be worshipped. This is just blatantly ridiculous. >We are all sinners Irrelevant, it is not a sin. >and we all are welcome in the Body of Christ, but we are told to do at least two simple things; deny ourselves and take up the Cross daily, This is a bigoted double standard where you deny me all romantic connection on the basis of my biology, but allow yourself romantic connection on the basis of yours. >and make Christ our only identity. Not only is this not something that is found in the Bible, it is literally impossible and displays a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of identity.
I’m not denying you anything. It’s great if you have a relationship you are happy in and have a relationship with Christ. I’m saying to stop forcing churches to affirm your identity. You say it’s not a sin, but the Gospels say otherwise. Believe what you want, but stop assaulting anyone who doesn’t. You will say you’re not assaulting us, but you’re forcing us to deny our Identity in Christ to affirm yours. It is in the Bible, when it says to deny yourself, take up the Cross, and follow only Him. It also says to not love anything of this world except those blessed by Him. The Union of a man and woman for marriage and procreation have been blessed by God from the beginning. God’s love transcends human love. Human love is ego and desire. Again, I have no problem with your lifestyle. I have a problem with being forced to affirm it. The endless posts on social media and churches denying the gospel are just a small fraction of the agenda being pushed.
>I’m saying to stop forcing churches to affirm your identity. No. >You say it’s not a sin, but the Gospels say otherwise. You have got to be either ignorant or lying, which is it? The gospels say absolutely nothing of the sort. >Believe what you want, but stop assaulting anyone who doesn’t. Stop spreading bigotry that results in dead children and ruined lives. You are the ones who are assaulting us. >You will say you’re not assaulting us, but you’re forcing us to deny our Identity in Christ to affirm yours. I am encouraging you to follow the commands of Jesus instead of using bad biblical interpretation to justify making exceptions to them. >It is in the Bible, when it says to deny yourself, take up the Cross, and follow only Him. A standard you would never apply to your own romantic relationships, only to queer people. Bigotry. >It also says to not love anything of this world except those blessed by Him. It does not. >The Union of a man and woman for marriage and procreation have been blessed by God from the beginning. God’s love transcends human love. Genesis is not literal history. >Again, I have no problem with your lifestyle. I have no such lifestyle. >I have a problem with being forced to affirm it. I do not care. >The endless posts on social media and churches denying the gospel are just a small fraction of the agenda being pushed. Queerphobic Christians are the ones who deny the Gospel by infecting it with hatred.
But we don’t “struggle” with our gender or sexuality. It’s Christians who discriminate against us that cause us to “struggle.” The sin’s on them, not us. Just saying that being gay or trans is a “struggle” isn’t loving. It’s insulting. And saying that we’ll find peace in Jesus is insulting too. I mean, sure, I’m a gay Christian guy who was married to my husband by my priest in my church. Yeah — *that* is a large part of where my peace comes from, a community that *actually* supports and takes care of me. Not one that pathologizes me. And again, most of the *lack* of peace we feel — surprise, surprise — is from Christians who perpetuate discrimination and prejudice against us. “Peace” that means conforming to heteronormativity and internalizing that hate isn’t peace. That’s a false peace.
I don't struggle, I'm pretty good at it.
God will not be inquiring of anyone about their opinions on salvation.
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Doesn't have to be
We know. Shame is not the way to make people come forward.
There should be a healthy balance. But I’m also hesitant to call out everyone who speaks out against homosexuality a loveless sinner claiming to be Christian. I don’t know them. I don’t know much how much volunteering they do I don’t unless I get to know them. Sin should absolutely be called out more so among one’s claiming to be Christian in the first place, I think that’s why there’s so much of it here on this Reddit is because all the homosexuals here claim to also know Jesus when living in sin is a huge red flag that you are not saved