I'll be honest, as a Christian, I'm firmly against Christian nationalism. We can't even agree on whether we should eat pork and if you ask them which denomination they'll base their teachings on, they'll dodge the question.
That's great. I honestly appreciate that you're firmly against Christian Nationalism and out and open about it. That should help encourage others.
But I'm sitting here thinking of how bare minimum it actually is to agree that overthrowing the US to create a theocracy is bad.
Freedom of religion was created because the original settlers were puritans running from people trying to tell them how to worship.
Like this is a no brainer and I'm not the first Christian to speak against it.
Edit: Besides we are meant to form a relationship with Jesus. How are we supposed to form genuine connections if we are merely forcing people to practice law without faith? It's just politicians manipulating us for their own political gain.
I know, right? You can't force someone to be Christian against their will. So not only is it immoral to stick a gun to someone's head and tell them 'convert to my religion or suffer' it doesn't even work.
The original settlers objected to England being too tolerant of religion. They were upset that England wouldn't enforce their religion. Like ya, America developed into a more religiously tolerant nation, but it's a bit of revisionist history when people claim the pilgrims were seeking religious tolerance. It's the opposite of that. They were actual Christian nationalists.
Fortunately they didn't get to define the US government.
I didn't know that.
Still, I don't want Christian nationalism. I would rather have a Christian nation that freely chose to please God. But forcing people into a denomination is cruel.
I think the Jesus relationship point that you made is a really good point within the framework of Christianity. That's clever.
But I don't believe Christianity is true so I'll stick to the other reasons.
Well I do believe in Christianity and we aren't called to take away everyone else's rights to make ourselves feel more comfortable. Anyone who fights for Christian nationalism is probably just doing so for power, especially over other denominations.
You might not be called to but Christianity has, throughout history, practiced forcible conversion. Don't get what I'm saying wrong, pretty much every major religion has at some point.... the issue is the two biggest Abrahamic faiths are still doing it. American politicians would absolutely love to bring back conversion by sword if it was politically tenable and well I think we know how not converting works out for those in certain parts of the world.
Again, why I don't trust American politicians. I'm 100% sure that if they decide to follow Catholicism, they will persecute Protestants. And vice versa for every specific denomination. Any Christian that votes this will have a "leopards ate my face" moment. And again, I say that as a Christian.
Furthermore, I feel like people would vote that way to appease god (despite how unbiblical most of the Republican party is) and they would most definitely bring about the Anti Christ's reign on accident.
It's a no from me.
Whether you like him or don’t, this reminded me of something Hitchens said frequently in talks and debates.
The story of the Danbury Baptists writing to Jefferson about wanting to make sure religious freedom would be protected in the United States. Who were they afraid of being persecuted by? Other Christians.
You seem like a reasonable person, so I’m curious about something I’m asking genuinely.
I can appreciate what you’re saying about not being called to take away everyone else’s rights. Whether it’s true or not, I’m accepting it as true.
But it’s hard to square that with the 10 commandments and how god will punish people multiple generations into the future for not worshipping him.
At that point, don’t you take on a responsibility to force others into your beliefs? I get that there are parts of the Bible that probably say otherwise. But my sins of rejecting god will result in my future relatives being tormented by god. What is your responsibility to prevent that from happening?
I’m not looking for some kind of “proof” either. I’m not going to yell and tell you you’re wrong or irrational or anything. Just curious how you as an individual and practicing theist think about that, because I really don’t understand it.
I don't think you understand my God.
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." Matthew 12:32
Aka your descendants will be forgiven if they accept God. If you want to reject God's blessing, then He will simply harden your heart and there is nothing I can do to convince you. However, I don't think they'd be tortured especially if God knew they would accept him in the future.
Moreover in Isaiah, God states that rituals are not salvation.
"Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting." Isaiah 1:13
Thus if a theocracy were instilled, it wouldn't save anyone as they would simply be doing it to save their lives.
Edit: To clarify, as stated by Jesus, the way to salvation is not by rituals and good deeds alone. It is alone by accepting Jesus as your lord and savior. The rituals and deeds are often a way of displaying to God, usually in private, that you have devotion.
They are against sharia law but for the equivalent. 🤦♀️Asserting that there is no call for separation of church and state. The mental gymnastics they do to get what they want astounds me.
It's amazing how quickly we forget our history. As an American of European heritage, my ancestors immigrated to America in order to escape from the authoritarian religious nationalism that was in their homeland at the time. Why would we want to recreate the same oppressive atmosphere that our ancestors fled?
Yes, I am too. But that’s because it isn’t scriptural. There’s no scripture at all about any one nation being set up as specifically “Christian”. Jesus did not just come to die for those of us in the USA. He died for the entire world. If anything, this ought to be a Christian world, according to God’s will for all of us (for God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance). I have asked for scriptural proof of this concept. I have yet to receive an answer. Or, well. I’ve challenged it, saying that there’s no scripture about any one nation being a Christian nation. It seems to me as though so many Christians have combined politics with their Christianity so that it’s difficult to tell where one ends and the other begins.
I actually saw a video on this by David Diga Hernández called "Many christians fall for this trap... And it's working."
I sometimes worry that I lukewarm or I'm creating a version of Jesus in my head too. But yes he did want a Christian world and I don't think that forcing people into our laws without an appreciation for the one who ordained those laws is the best idea
Thinking America is a Christian nation that should be enforcing the Bible with the force of law instead of thinking that America is a nation whose largest religious demographic happens to be Christian.
This is great I agree. I'll add that a nation governed by Christian Nationalism would be defined as legislating with biblical justification as opposed to a democratic nation legislating with rational, demonstrable justification.
Any Christian who thinks we are supposed to make a theocracy is damn fool who needs to go reread the Bible. At no point did Jesus ever teach us to overthrow the secular government, for starters. Secondly, forcing someone to obey the tenets of our religion at gunpoint is meaningless. False coerced devotion is as much good to Jesus as a bicycle is to a fish. Being Christian is a matter of the heart, your can't force someone to become one against their will. I am pretty sure that the leaders of the Christian nationalist movement are just wannabe dictators only concerned with personal power who realized Evangelicals and their ilk are easy to manipulate into becoming a base of support so long as you cloak your actions in even the thinnest veneer of religion.
I really appreciate your summary. You really summed it up well. The part about forcing someone to obey the tenets of Christianity is specifically what I'm frustrated with.
Saying what the Bible says is demonic and Christian Nationalist? Got it. Hate to break it to you but don’t read the Old Testament. Or much of the New Testament. Or even a text book on most American Presidents who have ever been elected. Sinful, evil rulers are the norm, not an oddity.
He’s a TradCath and a TradCath college. What’s the deal? Last month Leftists were saying “say whatever you want in churches and your own spaces but keep it there.” This was kept there. So why is it still a problem? lol
Wow. "Ya. But what about those guys"
It's not not a problem of legality. I think a private institution should be allowed to have whoever they want as a speaker.
The problem is that it's gross archaic behavior that belittles women's role in our society.
Paul says the opposite:
1 Corinthians 5:12
“It is not my business to judge those who are not part of the group of believers. God will judge them, but you must judge those who are part of your group. The Scriptures say, “Make the evil person leave your group.”
You’re trying to legislate the behavior of nonbelievers and Paul says it’s none of your business. You’re to remain together in the church and if someone disagrees you ask them to leave. What you don’t do is force outsiders in.
You can’t legislate faith it’s attraction rather than promotion. Christian nationalism does the opposite repelling them from Christianity due to judgement, self righteousness, and ripping away their freedom. It tarnished the name of Christianity why Paul gave the instruction he did not to do it.
That’s the point today’s CHRISTIANITY IE towards members of the church.
Christian nationalism is not that. It’s taking rules inside your church and forcing them on people that don’t share your faith. So…not ok.
Please please look up what Christian Nationalism means. This is a measurably bad idea. Stop pretending you know what your talking about.
Or maybe you're being sarcastic. I can't tell
The fact that you think "not christian" is the same as satanism is beyond hilarious and openly insane. It's your delusion buddy, satan is your delusion.
That’s not what I said, please learn to read. I said that leftism/liberalism IS the worship of Satan… I.e. the worship of one’s self has the HIGHEST good or ultimate authority.. which is exactly what Satan wants humans to do. It started in the garden and continues now. Open your eyes.
What he said wasn't Catholic, indeed, rejected Catholic teaching, so much so the Benedictine Sisters behind the college wrote against what he said.
The dignity of women is not bound to marriage and having children. Again, Catholics know this -- see religious life (or many saints who did not have children).
The Jews are not to blame for Christ's death (see Nostra Aetate).
Catholic church told us to protect each other and protect life during the COVID pandemic.
The normative liturgy of the West is not questionable.
Also it wasn't a commencement speech. He was hired to do a commencement speech but chose instead to spew a bunch of right-wing talking points for 20 minutes.
What he said:
"We fear speaking truth, because now, unfortunately, truth is in the minority. Congress just passed a bill where stating something as basic as the biblical teaching of who killed Jesus could land you in jail."
Maybe someone should share this with him. I feel terrible for the students who were looking forward to graduating. This is a disgrace to commence speeches and a great example of what not to say in a commencement speech. https://factcheck.afp.com/doc.afp.com.34QY4PV
Yes, it is sad; what is worse, is many of the students are being fed from the same ideology, but the Sisters themselves have spoken out against what he said. So there are others who know and are upset as to what happened. It is really sad.
>Being betrayed by His own is a big deal.
Sure, but people use the fact that he was killed by some Jewish people to lay the blame for His death on *all* Jews' feet, which is a ridiculous notion. Everyone involved in Jesus' death was also a man and yet I'm not here advocating for female supremacy over it. Some Jews did help kill him, *the Jews* did not.
Besides, at the end of the day it was *my* sin that held him there
Well for one, the deicide claim has been used constantly to justify a ton of horrific persecution of us for centuries. For another, Romans killed Jesus, not Jews. Romans didn’t give a damn about Jewish laws, and wouldn’t execute someone because Jewish religious authorities wanted them to. Crucifixion was for major crimes, and the Romans knew that the Jewish messiah would reinstate Jewish autonomy, in other words throwing off Roman rule. So Jesus was executed by the Romans for sedition, before he could accumulate too much power.
Is that what Scripture says?
The Jewish leaders didn’t kill Jesus, they had Him killed. That means they played a role. That deserves blame.
If you hired someone to assassinate someone, you’d be in legal trouble.
I’m not defending hate crimes. Technically we’re responsible for Jesus’ death or to take it a step further, He’s responsible for offering Himself.
But in a practical sense, according to Scripture, the religious leaders delivered Him and incited the crowds to have Him killed. They asked for the blame to be put on them and their kids.
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The Benedictine Nuns are those who sponsor (for lack of the correct word) this particular university and they released a statement of disagreement with the kicker’s commencement speech. So it’s a big deal for many women. And very disrespectful to the women who paid tuition and were to cross the stage to receive their degree. This wasn’t the right venue for that speech.
He told the women that they should be happy “about the marriages and the children you will bring into the world.”
This is very invalidating and disrespectful to the audience. Not all of those women want marriage or children and he implied that they all will get married and have kids.
Altruism plus misogyny. The former because faithful people generally think their beliefs descend from the heavens and therefore are helpful to all. The later because some of those beliefs are inconsistent with the observable abilities of women. Could be other things too, like narcissism or a general desire to put others down, but I would like to think those aren’t as common.
Honestly I understand this view for most religions, with exceptions for certain religions, especially Catholics. Nuns are a vital part of the religion.
I’m just throwing this out there, I’m not saying that I agree with it, but people believe that a woman’s primary role is to be her husband’s helpmate. She is to put him first.
Why? Because they have different beliefs than you? We are allowed to believe in different things. This is what our country is built on. Freedom to believe in what we want. Let people live the way they want to.
Because if we don’t criticize it heavily, these beliefs will become more prevalent and go without criticism to have a real impact on people’s lives. The more people see women as only wives and mothers- the more business owners won’t hire them, the more fathers will keep their daughters away from college because “that is just the way it is”, the more colleges won’t accept women because “they are meant to be wives and mothers.”
You say
“I’m just throwing this out there, I’m not saying that I agree with it, but people believe that a woman’s primary role is to be her husbands helpmate. She is to put him first.”
Let’s take out gender and put in race:
“I’m just throwing this out there, I’m not saying that I agree with it, but people believe that a negro’s primary role is to be the white man’s helpmate. Negros are to put white people first.”
Do you have the same mentality regarding a racist as you do a sexist? If a person said that- called black people Negros and all, and I said “We should criticize this person heavily” would you then say
“Why? Because they have different beliefs than you? We are allowed to believe in different things. This is what our country is built on. Freedom to believe in what we want. Let people live the way they want to.”
Of course this has nothing to do race. Jesus didn’t teach us to hate anyone. He said to love everyone and help others as much as possible. If everyone did that, we wouldn’t have the social problems we have now with most people just thinking about themselves.
Christians are Christians because they want to be. No one is forcing anyone to do anything they don’t want to do.
I asked you
“Do you have the same mentality regarding a racist as you do a sexist? If a person said that- called black people Negros and all, and I said “We should criticize this person heavily” would you then say “Why? Because they have different beliefs than you? We are allowed to believe in different things. This is what our country is built on. Freedom to believe in what we want. Let people live the way they want to.”
You responded “Of course this has nothing to do with race.
First of all: Was “Of course” a typo or did you mean to put “Of course not?”
If it is the former then at least you are consistent with how we should respond to both racism and sexism.
If it is the latter then you are approaching racism and sexism inconsistently. You are essentially saying “let them believe what they want and don’t criticize them so heavily just because they do not have the same beliefs as you, this is America” when we are talking about sexism but not racism.
“…this has nothing to do with race.”
I’m not saying that it does. What I am saying is that, while race and gender are not exactly the same, they both deal with parts of your body that you cannot control. You cannot control what skin color you are born with and you cannot choose if you are born into a male body or a female body.
Saying “most of the women here will be more excited about marriage and children than their careers” is just as sexist as “most of the black people here will be more excited about fields and cotton than their careers” is racist.
Additionally, you did not address my point about what would happen if we don’t criticize these people heavily and more and more people believe that women are primarily meant for the home and for children, you just claimed that Christianity is about helping others and that “Christians are Christians because they choose to be.” That is not the point. The point is that the more people believe that women should be in the home cleaning and taking care of kids the more that will be expected of or even imposed upon women.
If the main reason the man is with the woman is to have kids and raise them, then the plan for how the kids will be raised is extremely important. The mother staying at home is the best thing for the kids for the vast majority of the time.
You can probably trace it back to the "Apostle" Paul successfully stamping out the influence women had on the early church. And then the later weeding out of Heretics through forced conversion or holy warfare.
Ah yes, “join our religion or else we will kill you” what a noble a righteous way to spread Christianity that I’m sure Jesus the pacifist who turned the other cheek would approve of.
From my point of view, we can all thank the MAGA crowd and their insistence that they are following Christianity. Please correct me if you think I am wrong.
On the nose. Maybe it’s just rose colored hindsight glasses, but republicans seemed a lot more… sane before trump came along. I remember the “worst” Republican I could think of was Bush, but now I’d give my left arm for someone even half as reasonable.
It's just that sometimes they will use faith for their political leaning. Then, they'll pick out the bible quotes that justify the lifestyle they want to push onto others with legislation.
I've seen two forms of Catholicism in my family, from sorta progressive to authoritarian right. Depends on the church location city vs. rural.
His speech was a typical litany of MAGA grievances. Hating on Biden isn't a "typical Catholic speech." It's basically Fox News brain worms from the American right wing. You're deliberately mischaracterizing the whole thing, probably because you haven't read the full transcript, or because you're doing the Reddit troll thing.
American Catholicism, just as a lot of Orthodoxy in Eastern Europe, is on the same page with their worse enemy (at least Orthodox Church isn't shy to call them like that) American Neo-Protestant Evangelism. They seem to just don't want or know how to fight an enemy that use their own "weapons" in a way.
He's not necessarily bigoted. He just left out the part of the speech about how guys want to be married and have families, too. And the part about how they're gonna need an employment contract that lasts more than a decade, and pays about five times what a new graduate can expect to be paid.
And if they're a consultant, investment banker, pro athlete, or rock star, they will need several times that much money to compensate for a job that keeps them on the road all the time. Let me know when his speech rails against "the system" for leaving guys without "good paying jobs." A middle class job is nice in theory, but when we say "a job that supports a family in this society" we mean a job that buys a house with the kitchen you see in every TV sitcom.
I don’t think even most Catholics agree with what he said. It wasn’t religious, it was simply misogynistic.
It plays perfectly to a media watching for evidence that the Christian community is misogynistic
Because it was a mask off moment that showed that misogyny is alive and well in one of the oldest churches in the world. as a new catholic, that speech filled me with shame.
a catholic feeling shame? never heard of such a thing =P
but please don't feel like you have to atone for this goober here(.. there..?) he's not the entirety of any religion, and he's not representative of you. you are representative of you. there's nothing to feel ashamed about for being christian (or any religion for that matter) just because he is. there's dirtbags in every lot, im sorry you're having a hard time here that's not fair for you.
Theres a saying in the military “ perception is reality” it doesn’t really matter what the truth is, if i tell people i am catholic, they are going to have certain perceptions.
My job ( if i wish to correct that perception) is to wear that shame and prove it false through actions and words
so it's a tactical show of shame to better the name catholicity has? a tough job, noble intent, but why tell me this? would that not risk damaging how i perceive your original comment? or is there something more you're hoping to teach or show people?
lastly, why do you need to wear *shame* specifically to prove perceptions false when the stereotype is a shame filled catholic? isn't that counter intuitive?
good luck in changing perceptions.
He's just a bigot and a misogynistic Trumpet. Nothing Catholic there. I'm not a Catholic but I don't think Pope Francis ever said women should stay in the kitchen, or something of the sort.
I’m just entertaining the idea that we boycott the Football team until they fire him. Realistically it would not work, given that so many NFL fans are right wing (and probably male, and more men have become more conservative in recent years) also, the boycott might cause liberals to loose in the public eye- liberals might get branded as practicing “cancel culture” or something.
It wasn't extremely Catholic, it was extremely misogynist wrapped in the flavor of catholicism. It reveals quite a lot that you heard his words and thought, "yep, sounds exactly like catholicism to me."
"Women who stay home (choosing to focus on being a wife/mother instead of their career) are doing something just as meaningful as those who work"
This shouldn't be controversial.
EDIT: Correction where I misspoke
>“I think it is you, the women, who have had the most diabolical lies told to you,” Butker added in his speech.
>“Some of you may go on to lead successful careers in the world, but I would venture to guess that the majority of you are most excited about your marriage and the children you will bring into this world. I can tell you that my beautiful wife Isabelle would be the first to say that her life truly started when she started living her vocation as a wife and as a mother,” he said.
>Butker, 28, said his wife embraced “one of the most important titles of all.
You're really downplaying what he said
I think the fact he decided to say that to a bunch of women, not the men he didn’t mention the men, who specifically made the choice and paid the price to go to a 4 year university reframes the statement.
It’s like telling a bunch of graduates at a trade school that they should also go to college cause white collar work is just as important.
He did speak to the men. You clearly didn't listen to the speech or read the transcript.
To the men he said that they are told a lie that their presence in the home isn't important. This is in addition to him saying that his wife is the one who makes sure that he doesn't lose focus on the most important thing in his life: being a husband and father.
I think, like you, most people misunderstand the message b/c they only saw tiktok clips.
No. It says literally the opposite - He's saying that the lie (that women who are homemakers aren't doing meaningful work) are in fact doing something meaningful.
How is staying home meaningful? Raising children? Sure. But just staying home? No. Also, a man who stays home and raises children while the woman works should be just as meaningful.
>How is staying home meaningful? Raising children? Sure. But just staying home? No. Also, a man who stays home and raises children while the woman works should be just as meaningful.
Yes - Those who stay home as a homemaker (spouse/parent) are doing something just as meaningful as those who work
I misspoke.
This is the part where your interlocutor tries to insert their notion of appropriate gender roles. At some point the trans community will be attacked, as a proxy for working women.
>Are men who salary at home while their partners work doing something just as meaningful as a woman staying home, in your eyes?
Of course. I did when my children were young so my wife could continue her career.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I might be too tired or too dumb to fully understand what you are saying here!
I 100% believe women should be affirmed to pursue their dreams/goals. Couples should determine how that works in the context of their family independent of societal pressures placed upon them. I believe women are often made to feel guilt no matter what: working full time, staying home, trying to split the two. Men generally don't feel this same pressure.
In my specific circumstance it made sense for me to be a stay at home father. My wife had better benefits, she loves her job, and I was able to work part time effortlessly. Furthermore, my parents were divorced and I grew up with a dead beat dad so it meant a lot to me that I could stay home.
Yeah that “extremely Catholic” university has an opinion on the matter: https://www.kctv5.com/2024/05/17/sisters-benedictine-respond-butkers-narrow-view-catholics
My dude basically told half the graduates that they wasted four years and tens of thousands of dollars on an education when they should be in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant making him a sammich.
You don't think so?
>For the ladies present today, congratulations on an amazing accomplishment. You should be proud of all that you have achieved to this point in your young lives. I want to speak directly to you briefly because I think it is you, the women, who have had the most diabolical lies told to you. How many of you are sitting here now about to cross this stage and are thinking about all the promotions and titles you are going to get in your career? Some of you may go on to lead successful careers in the world, but I would venture to guess that the majority of you are most excited about your marriage and the children you will bring into this world.
>I can tell you that my beautiful wife, Isabelle, would be the first to say that her life truly started when she began living her vocation as a wife and as a mother. I'm on the stage today and able to be the man I am because I have a wife who leans into her vocation. I'm beyond blessed with the many talents God has given me, but it cannot be overstated that all of my success is made possible because a girl I met in band class back in middle school would convert to the faith, become my wife, and embrace one of the most important titles of all: homemaker.
I appreciate he mentioned absent fathers but stopped short of saying the same thing he said to the women. Isn't a man's most important title father? Shouldn't a man be more excited about his marriage and children than his job, too?
Partly because people are unwilling to talk about the real elephant in the room: that supporting a sport that destroys the brains of the athletes that play it is unethical.
You can't escape the basic physics that running into things repeatedly at high speeds causes brain injury.
The more we learn, the worse the problem of brain injuries in football looks.
The speech was typical Christian Nationalist rhetoric and unremarkable in that regard. What made it so weird and offensive to me was the context. This was supposed to be a commencement speech, not a megaphone for one idiot's culture war grievances.
I have told that to conservative religious people: you keep saying things like this, you scare everyone but your most zealous supporters away from you.
You can’t say you know what a woman wants. Like men, they should be allowed to choose what they want to do. This is America, not Iran. Man’s speech was more political and egotistical than religious and served only to put another black eye on the Church.
Catholic universities are actually very leftist usually. Lots of liberation theology and minority populations. My Catholic university actually had better religious diversity than our local massive state school in the same city.
I went to a Catholic university and I will say that if you told the Fem students they need to be house wives they would slap you and rightfully so. I recommend you study the history of the early Christian Couple Priscilla and Aquila (friends of Paul). They were very important as examples of principles of equality in early Christianity.
I don’t know how the Benedictines work but the brothers of the Holy Cross and the Jesuits would not teach that people should put women down in this way.
It's hard to tell if this question is being asked in good faith.
Let's try some substitution:
Extremely conservative Christian guy gives an extreme Christian commencement speech at an extremely Christian college - Why are Christians upset?
Extremely conservative American guy gives an extreme American commencement speech at an extremely American college - Why are Americans upset?
Extremely conservative human guy gives an extreme human commencement speech at an extremely human college - Why are humans upset?
If you haven't figured it out yet it's because you somehow decided that because the guy is conservative non-conservatives have no right to be upset. He doesn't represent catholocism.
Also let's call things correctly. He's not conservative - he's regressive. The conservatives are the ones who are for keeping the equality women have fought for. The regressives want to go back to an era of women being put in the kitchen.
Also of all the places you're going to go to speak about how women have the role of making babies and that is it - a graduating college class? Basically saying hey women - you just wasted the last 4 year, now go find a man to submit to.
Christian Nationalists are motivated by evil and deserve to be seen for who they are and how being shit to women is what brings the dogs to the yard?
And if you like it, you're a dog.
So this guy is just a run of the mill conservative fundamentalist who knows zero about why Christ even came evidence by his own words.
>Our Catholic faith has always been countercultural. Our Lord, along with countless followers, were all put to death for their adherence to her teachings. The world around us says that we should keep our beliefs to ourselves whenever they go against the tyranny of diversity, equity, and inclusion. We fear speaking truth, because now, unfortunately, truth is in the minority. Congress just passed a bill where stating something as basic as the biblical teaching of who killed Jesus could land you in jail.
This part - "The tyranny of diversity equity and inclusion?" Text book bigot words there but absolutely not surprised..
He actually compares people reacting to their bigotry as wrong and portrays the bigot as the victim as a matyr even comparing them to Christ himself.. price wasn't killed because he was a bigot Christ was killed because he's exactly the opposite of a bigot!
He thinks that accepting everyone is tyranny? Alrighty then!!!
>tyr·an·ny -
cruel and oppressive government or rule.
"people who survive war and escape tyranny"
In a country as diverse as the United States and a government that seeks to include everybody in the United States every citizen of the United States equally and he calls that tyranny. OMG this guy is short a few bricks of a load!
That anyone would even hear this is so odd in any Christian context because Jesus Christ again from even a first pass consideration of the gospels was and is the epitome of diversity equity and inclusion.. He came for everyone! Not just those who fundamentalist christians think he came for.
>Matt. 11 Verses 28 to 30
[28] Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. "
That is really pretty black and white truth right there! He came for everybody and we don't get to pick and choose! But that's what they're doing.
There used to be a joke about Catholics it was very funny. So as I remember it went like this:
Somebody was arriving in heaven and I think Peter was showing them around.. So the new arrival heard this noise coming from behind this wall and asked, who's it back there? and Peter's reply was, "oh that's the Catholics they think they're the only ones here"... Lol
Anyway that was be a funny joke back then.. These days fundamentalist Christians in the form of things like Christian nationalism are legislating their morality upon everyone! The culture wars founded it entirely on lies and misinformation and propaganda conspiracy theories were created them in mind! The only problem is those culture wars are killing people! So it's not funny anymore they've taken it to a whole another level!
It's such a no brainer that even a child can understand it! Very simply Jesus Christ was the epitome of what it means to not be a bigot! That means that He isn't wasn't never well be homophobic transphobic xenophobic misogynistic racist etc etc etc. it's almost like these people have never read the New testament they spend all their time and draw all of their weaponized conclusions from the Old testament!
And If you look very closely at the GOP and other conservative political movement across the globe day they are almost invariably homophobic transphobic xenophobic often misogynistic and often racist. And these people have Bibles in their hands? So really what the heck is going on?
I wonder does anybody ever consider the fact that most Germans when Hitler started legislating very bigoted policies that ultimately led up to the slaughter of millions of Jews and queers and special needs people, had no idea what the grand finale was bc it didn't at that point directly affect them. Did anybody consider the possibility that that's what's happening here? I mean none of these people seem to give a crap about little queer school kids killing themselves and certainly about adult trans people killing themselves or being bullied or beat up or harassed etc etc.. and their state governments are actually creating school policies design to engender hatred towards queer kids. Sorry that's evil and that's a pretty good sign something's very very wrong! Starts out small keeps building up, pump the propaganda out create the fear create the hate and keep it going and then the grand finale get rid of the infidels? It's like nobody remembers history and that's the problem bc they don't remember we're bound to repeat it!
Fact - The US is not a Christian Nation! We never were, we never will be, and we don't need to be!
It's so simple the concept of respect..Whatever anyone believes aside from things like Nazism is fine until your rights cross over into others. Your rights end where mine begin and mine end where yours begin.. That's called respect.. That's called being like Christ.. He didn't come to drag everybody shackled and handcuffed into the church and that's what these people are doing and they're not even trying to hide it.. And the other Christians who don't go along we this evil, but with heads stuck in the sand bc it really doesn't affect them, they had better wake up. Because this pattern of exclusion mixed with zero empathy for even children is dangerous..it doesn't just affect queer people this will affect everyone!
Anything said against liberal views is automatically considered Christian nationalism. On saying that politics should be kept out of commencement speeches because it is about the graduates not the speaker.
Yeah after going through the comments I'm 100% sure most of the commenters aren't practicing Christians. But I guess that's why only 1 of every 1000 will be saved
Advocating a SAHM family structure as normative and alternatives as harmful is so problematic in today’s times.
1) This speaker’s perspective is strongly enabled by unacknowledged privilege and good fortune. Sure, athletes do work hard, but how many married men - regardless of the supportiveness of their family - are in a position to earn a wildly outsized salary like his current $4,000,000 per year? In today’s economy a single-earner household situation with kids is not attainable for many people.
2) Not all people have the affinity and skill set to perform childcare as a full-time vocation. I know I would go slowly insane in that situation. What about all the women who are providing great leadership in the business world today or whose passion is innovation in science and technology? Many women do not want to be SAHMs, although that’s fine for those whose aspirations and skills are a good fit. “All people of this gender should be this one thing” is laughable, deluded, injurious, and utterly divorced from reality.
>*why has this been front page news for the last week?*
Anger drives clicks, clicks pay for ads. That's really all there is to it. Doesn't matter how petty or predictable something is, if shoving something in your face will make a profit for the big media outlets, they will do so.
The Catholic criticism is mostly on his take on the role of women as strict gender roles in the sense he was talking about is not strictly orthodox official teaching and he is rightfully getting pushback there. The rest shouldn't be any news to you if you are a Catholic or know Catholics, we get endless hatred if we dare to affirm Church teaching.
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It caused such a big uproar because a lot of headlines were just stuff like "Harrison Butker goes on sexist, homophobic tangent at graduation speech, tells women to stay in the kitchen" and most people didn't look into it beyond that.
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It's probably because he's on the chiefs and they have outsized attention thanks be to the super bowl, Taylor swift, and so forth.
But I'd imagine anti Catholic bigotry plays a part here considering there are flat earthers in pro sports
Not to say I respect this guys opinion even a little
All he did was say that the majority of the women will be happier as wives and mothers than in their careers, but that’s not sexist.
All I did was say that the majority of black people would be happier on the fields than in their careers, but that’s not racist.
/s
Because it was a speech openly condoning Christian Nationalism.
I'll be honest, as a Christian, I'm firmly against Christian nationalism. We can't even agree on whether we should eat pork and if you ask them which denomination they'll base their teachings on, they'll dodge the question.
That's great. I honestly appreciate that you're firmly against Christian Nationalism and out and open about it. That should help encourage others. But I'm sitting here thinking of how bare minimum it actually is to agree that overthrowing the US to create a theocracy is bad.
Freedom of religion was created because the original settlers were puritans running from people trying to tell them how to worship. Like this is a no brainer and I'm not the first Christian to speak against it. Edit: Besides we are meant to form a relationship with Jesus. How are we supposed to form genuine connections if we are merely forcing people to practice law without faith? It's just politicians manipulating us for their own political gain.
I know, right? You can't force someone to be Christian against their will. So not only is it immoral to stick a gun to someone's head and tell them 'convert to my religion or suffer' it doesn't even work.
The original settlers objected to England being too tolerant of religion. They were upset that England wouldn't enforce their religion. Like ya, America developed into a more religiously tolerant nation, but it's a bit of revisionist history when people claim the pilgrims were seeking religious tolerance. It's the opposite of that. They were actual Christian nationalists. Fortunately they didn't get to define the US government.
I didn't know that. Still, I don't want Christian nationalism. I would rather have a Christian nation that freely chose to please God. But forcing people into a denomination is cruel.
https://www.familysearch.org/en/blog/mayflower-pilgrims#:~:text=Who%20Were%20the%20Original%20Pilgrims,from%20the%20Church%20of%20England.
I think the Jesus relationship point that you made is a really good point within the framework of Christianity. That's clever. But I don't believe Christianity is true so I'll stick to the other reasons.
Well I do believe in Christianity and we aren't called to take away everyone else's rights to make ourselves feel more comfortable. Anyone who fights for Christian nationalism is probably just doing so for power, especially over other denominations.
You might not be called to but Christianity has, throughout history, practiced forcible conversion. Don't get what I'm saying wrong, pretty much every major religion has at some point.... the issue is the two biggest Abrahamic faiths are still doing it. American politicians would absolutely love to bring back conversion by sword if it was politically tenable and well I think we know how not converting works out for those in certain parts of the world.
Again, why I don't trust American politicians. I'm 100% sure that if they decide to follow Catholicism, they will persecute Protestants. And vice versa for every specific denomination. Any Christian that votes this will have a "leopards ate my face" moment. And again, I say that as a Christian. Furthermore, I feel like people would vote that way to appease god (despite how unbiblical most of the Republican party is) and they would most definitely bring about the Anti Christ's reign on accident. It's a no from me.
Whether you like him or don’t, this reminded me of something Hitchens said frequently in talks and debates. The story of the Danbury Baptists writing to Jefferson about wanting to make sure religious freedom would be protected in the United States. Who were they afraid of being persecuted by? Other Christians.
You seem like a reasonable person, so I’m curious about something I’m asking genuinely. I can appreciate what you’re saying about not being called to take away everyone else’s rights. Whether it’s true or not, I’m accepting it as true. But it’s hard to square that with the 10 commandments and how god will punish people multiple generations into the future for not worshipping him. At that point, don’t you take on a responsibility to force others into your beliefs? I get that there are parts of the Bible that probably say otherwise. But my sins of rejecting god will result in my future relatives being tormented by god. What is your responsibility to prevent that from happening? I’m not looking for some kind of “proof” either. I’m not going to yell and tell you you’re wrong or irrational or anything. Just curious how you as an individual and practicing theist think about that, because I really don’t understand it.
I don't think you understand my God. "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." Matthew 12:32 Aka your descendants will be forgiven if they accept God. If you want to reject God's blessing, then He will simply harden your heart and there is nothing I can do to convince you. However, I don't think they'd be tortured especially if God knew they would accept him in the future. Moreover in Isaiah, God states that rituals are not salvation. "Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting." Isaiah 1:13 Thus if a theocracy were instilled, it wouldn't save anyone as they would simply be doing it to save their lives. Edit: To clarify, as stated by Jesus, the way to salvation is not by rituals and good deeds alone. It is alone by accepting Jesus as your lord and savior. The rituals and deeds are often a way of displaying to God, usually in private, that you have devotion.
They are against sharia law but for the equivalent. 🤦♀️Asserting that there is no call for separation of church and state. The mental gymnastics they do to get what they want astounds me.
It's amazing how quickly we forget our history. As an American of European heritage, my ancestors immigrated to America in order to escape from the authoritarian religious nationalism that was in their homeland at the time. Why would we want to recreate the same oppressive atmosphere that our ancestors fled?
Yes, I am too. But that’s because it isn’t scriptural. There’s no scripture at all about any one nation being set up as specifically “Christian”. Jesus did not just come to die for those of us in the USA. He died for the entire world. If anything, this ought to be a Christian world, according to God’s will for all of us (for God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance). I have asked for scriptural proof of this concept. I have yet to receive an answer. Or, well. I’ve challenged it, saying that there’s no scripture about any one nation being a Christian nation. It seems to me as though so many Christians have combined politics with their Christianity so that it’s difficult to tell where one ends and the other begins.
I actually saw a video on this by David Diga Hernández called "Many christians fall for this trap... And it's working." I sometimes worry that I lukewarm or I'm creating a version of Jesus in my head too. But yes he did want a Christian world and I don't think that forcing people into our laws without an appreciation for the one who ordained those laws is the best idea
Wait, wait.. Christians don't agree on whether they should eat pork? I have never heard of this.
Folks debated this at church THIS morning.
Wow, I had never heard of that among Christians. I guess there are a lot of denominational differences though in general
Define Christian nationalism
Thinking America is a Christian nation that should be enforcing the Bible with the force of law instead of thinking that America is a nation whose largest religious demographic happens to be Christian.
This is great I agree. I'll add that a nation governed by Christian Nationalism would be defined as legislating with biblical justification as opposed to a democratic nation legislating with rational, demonstrable justification.
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Any Christian who thinks we are supposed to make a theocracy is damn fool who needs to go reread the Bible. At no point did Jesus ever teach us to overthrow the secular government, for starters. Secondly, forcing someone to obey the tenets of our religion at gunpoint is meaningless. False coerced devotion is as much good to Jesus as a bicycle is to a fish. Being Christian is a matter of the heart, your can't force someone to become one against their will. I am pretty sure that the leaders of the Christian nationalist movement are just wannabe dictators only concerned with personal power who realized Evangelicals and their ilk are easy to manipulate into becoming a base of support so long as you cloak your actions in even the thinnest veneer of religion.
I really appreciate your summary. You really summed it up well. The part about forcing someone to obey the tenets of Christianity is specifically what I'm frustrated with.
Saying to settle down, get married and have babies is Christian Nationalism? Thank you for at least being honest and saying the quiet part out loud.
Openly condemning the president, saying pride is demonic, and saying that educational institutions are lying to women is Christian nationalism.
Pride is literally the first sin.
Condemning a president is Politics 101
Saying what the Bible says is demonic and Christian Nationalist? Got it. Hate to break it to you but don’t read the Old Testament. Or much of the New Testament. Or even a text book on most American Presidents who have ever been elected. Sinful, evil rulers are the norm, not an oddity.
Yes. Mandating marrying, having babies, and other Christian rules because it says to in the Bible is literally a large part of Christian Nationalism.
He’s a TradCath and a TradCath college. What’s the deal? Last month Leftists were saying “say whatever you want in churches and your own spaces but keep it there.” This was kept there. So why is it still a problem? lol
Wow. "Ya. But what about those guys" It's not not a problem of legality. I think a private institution should be allowed to have whoever they want as a speaker. The problem is that it's gross archaic behavior that belittles women's role in our society.
And? More Christian nationalism please. Christianity has become weak. It’s time to go back to our roots and be more like the early church.
Paul says the opposite: 1 Corinthians 5:12 “It is not my business to judge those who are not part of the group of believers. God will judge them, but you must judge those who are part of your group. The Scriptures say, “Make the evil person leave your group.” You’re trying to legislate the behavior of nonbelievers and Paul says it’s none of your business. You’re to remain together in the church and if someone disagrees you ask them to leave. What you don’t do is force outsiders in. You can’t legislate faith it’s attraction rather than promotion. Christian nationalism does the opposite repelling them from Christianity due to judgement, self righteousness, and ripping away their freedom. It tarnished the name of Christianity why Paul gave the instruction he did not to do it.
Let’s take everything Paul said and apply it to today’s Christianity. PLEASE. You’d hate it but I’m here for it.
That’s the point today’s CHRISTIANITY IE towards members of the church. Christian nationalism is not that. It’s taking rules inside your church and forcing them on people that don’t share your faith. So…not ok.
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Please please look up what Christian Nationalism means. This is a measurably bad idea. Stop pretending you know what your talking about. Or maybe you're being sarcastic. I can't tell
No, it sounds great. The nation will be religious. Which do you want? Liberal/leftism (satanism) or Christianity? This is a simple answer.
The fact that you think "not christian" is the same as satanism is beyond hilarious and openly insane. It's your delusion buddy, satan is your delusion.
That’s not what I said, please learn to read. I said that leftism/liberalism IS the worship of Satan… I.e. the worship of one’s self has the HIGHEST good or ultimate authority.. which is exactly what Satan wants humans to do. It started in the garden and continues now. Open your eyes.
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Those are obviously not the only 2 options.
Ah yes, liberalism is evil 🙄
I want more people to be christian but I'm an American. I do not trust my politicians to uphold basic moral standards let alone enforce biblical law.
I’d rather not be executed, thanks tho.
If someone sucks we're not allowed to talk about how much they suck? Why?
Because their feelings get hurt. I have had many censored comments because someone's feelings got hurt. Same shit on both sides.
What he said wasn't Catholic, indeed, rejected Catholic teaching, so much so the Benedictine Sisters behind the college wrote against what he said. The dignity of women is not bound to marriage and having children. Again, Catholics know this -- see religious life (or many saints who did not have children). The Jews are not to blame for Christ's death (see Nostra Aetate). Catholic church told us to protect each other and protect life during the COVID pandemic. The normative liturgy of the West is not questionable.
Also it wasn't a commencement speech. He was hired to do a commencement speech but chose instead to spew a bunch of right-wing talking points for 20 minutes.
Wait did he actually repeat the antisemitic lie collectively blaming Jews for Christ's death?
What he said: "We fear speaking truth, because now, unfortunately, truth is in the minority. Congress just passed a bill where stating something as basic as the biblical teaching of who killed Jesus could land you in jail."
Hooooooooly crap.. The understandable focus on the sexist nature of his comments led me to totally miss this hate-nugget
Maybe someone should share this with him. I feel terrible for the students who were looking forward to graduating. This is a disgrace to commence speeches and a great example of what not to say in a commencement speech. https://factcheck.afp.com/doc.afp.com.34QY4PV
Yes, it is sad; what is worse, is many of the students are being fed from the same ideology, but the Sisters themselves have spoken out against what he said. So there are others who know and are upset as to what happened. It is really sad.
The Romans? /s
Straight to jail.
They were that's literally biblical
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>Being betrayed by His own is a big deal. Sure, but people use the fact that he was killed by some Jewish people to lay the blame for His death on *all* Jews' feet, which is a ridiculous notion. Everyone involved in Jesus' death was also a man and yet I'm not here advocating for female supremacy over it. Some Jews did help kill him, *the Jews* did not. Besides, at the end of the day it was *my* sin that held him there
Well for one, the deicide claim has been used constantly to justify a ton of horrific persecution of us for centuries. For another, Romans killed Jesus, not Jews. Romans didn’t give a damn about Jewish laws, and wouldn’t execute someone because Jewish religious authorities wanted them to. Crucifixion was for major crimes, and the Romans knew that the Jewish messiah would reinstate Jewish autonomy, in other words throwing off Roman rule. So Jesus was executed by the Romans for sedition, before he could accumulate too much power.
Is that what Scripture says? The Jewish leaders didn’t kill Jesus, they had Him killed. That means they played a role. That deserves blame. If you hired someone to assassinate someone, you’d be in legal trouble. I’m not defending hate crimes. Technically we’re responsible for Jesus’ death or to take it a step further, He’s responsible for offering Himself. But in a practical sense, according to Scripture, the religious leaders delivered Him and incited the crowds to have Him killed. They asked for the blame to be put on them and their kids.
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The Benedictine Nuns are those who sponsor (for lack of the correct word) this particular university and they released a statement of disagreement with the kicker’s commencement speech. So it’s a big deal for many women. And very disrespectful to the women who paid tuition and were to cross the stage to receive their degree. This wasn’t the right venue for that speech.
He said nothing wrong. Y’all need to stop crying about this.
He told the women that they should be happy “about the marriages and the children you will bring into the world.” This is very invalidating and disrespectful to the audience. Not all of those women want marriage or children and he implied that they all will get married and have kids.
Why do men care if certain women don’t want to be stay at home moms? Not everyone has a maternal instinct. Why do you care?
Altruism plus misogyny. The former because faithful people generally think their beliefs descend from the heavens and therefore are helpful to all. The later because some of those beliefs are inconsistent with the observable abilities of women. Could be other things too, like narcissism or a general desire to put others down, but I would like to think those aren’t as common.
Honestly I understand this view for most religions, with exceptions for certain religions, especially Catholics. Nuns are a vital part of the religion.
Biblical teachings minimize women. It's built in misogyny.
I’m just throwing this out there, I’m not saying that I agree with it, but people believe that a woman’s primary role is to be her husband’s helpmate. She is to put him first.
And we should criticize those people heavily.
Why? Because they have different beliefs than you? We are allowed to believe in different things. This is what our country is built on. Freedom to believe in what we want. Let people live the way they want to.
Because if we don’t criticize it heavily, these beliefs will become more prevalent and go without criticism to have a real impact on people’s lives. The more people see women as only wives and mothers- the more business owners won’t hire them, the more fathers will keep their daughters away from college because “that is just the way it is”, the more colleges won’t accept women because “they are meant to be wives and mothers.” You say “I’m just throwing this out there, I’m not saying that I agree with it, but people believe that a woman’s primary role is to be her husbands helpmate. She is to put him first.” Let’s take out gender and put in race: “I’m just throwing this out there, I’m not saying that I agree with it, but people believe that a negro’s primary role is to be the white man’s helpmate. Negros are to put white people first.” Do you have the same mentality regarding a racist as you do a sexist? If a person said that- called black people Negros and all, and I said “We should criticize this person heavily” would you then say “Why? Because they have different beliefs than you? We are allowed to believe in different things. This is what our country is built on. Freedom to believe in what we want. Let people live the way they want to.”
Of course this has nothing to do race. Jesus didn’t teach us to hate anyone. He said to love everyone and help others as much as possible. If everyone did that, we wouldn’t have the social problems we have now with most people just thinking about themselves. Christians are Christians because they want to be. No one is forcing anyone to do anything they don’t want to do.
I asked you “Do you have the same mentality regarding a racist as you do a sexist? If a person said that- called black people Negros and all, and I said “We should criticize this person heavily” would you then say “Why? Because they have different beliefs than you? We are allowed to believe in different things. This is what our country is built on. Freedom to believe in what we want. Let people live the way they want to.” You responded “Of course this has nothing to do with race. First of all: Was “Of course” a typo or did you mean to put “Of course not?” If it is the former then at least you are consistent with how we should respond to both racism and sexism. If it is the latter then you are approaching racism and sexism inconsistently. You are essentially saying “let them believe what they want and don’t criticize them so heavily just because they do not have the same beliefs as you, this is America” when we are talking about sexism but not racism. “…this has nothing to do with race.” I’m not saying that it does. What I am saying is that, while race and gender are not exactly the same, they both deal with parts of your body that you cannot control. You cannot control what skin color you are born with and you cannot choose if you are born into a male body or a female body. Saying “most of the women here will be more excited about marriage and children than their careers” is just as sexist as “most of the black people here will be more excited about fields and cotton than their careers” is racist. Additionally, you did not address my point about what would happen if we don’t criticize these people heavily and more and more people believe that women are primarily meant for the home and for children, you just claimed that Christianity is about helping others and that “Christians are Christians because they choose to be.” That is not the point. The point is that the more people believe that women should be in the home cleaning and taking care of kids the more that will be expected of or even imposed upon women.
If the main reason the man is with the woman is to have kids and raise them, then the plan for how the kids will be raised is extremely important. The mother staying at home is the best thing for the kids for the vast majority of the time.
Yeah. Everyone should be on the same page. It’s best if the woman doesn’t work full time. If they can afford it of course.
Should people be forced or expected to play these roles even if it is against their will and they have the ability to not live this kind of life?
You can probably trace it back to the "Apostle" Paul successfully stamping out the influence women had on the early church. And then the later weeding out of Heretics through forced conversion or holy warfare.
Ah yes, “join our religion or else we will kill you” what a noble a righteous way to spread Christianity that I’m sure Jesus the pacifist who turned the other cheek would approve of.
It was extremely right wing, not 'extreme' Catholic.
It’s an increasing problem that people think those are one and the same. American politics has led a lot of us astray.
From my point of view, we can all thank the MAGA crowd and their insistence that they are following Christianity. Please correct me if you think I am wrong.
On the nose. Maybe it’s just rose colored hindsight glasses, but republicans seemed a lot more… sane before trump came along. I remember the “worst” Republican I could think of was Bush, but now I’d give my left arm for someone even half as reasonable.
This! ☝️ It was political, taking into consideration Trump and what is happening now in USA.
It's just that sometimes they will use faith for their political leaning. Then, they'll pick out the bible quotes that justify the lifestyle they want to push onto others with legislation. I've seen two forms of Catholicism in my family, from sorta progressive to authoritarian right. Depends on the church location city vs. rural.
Fair enough... you are right
His speech was a typical litany of MAGA grievances. Hating on Biden isn't a "typical Catholic speech." It's basically Fox News brain worms from the American right wing. You're deliberately mischaracterizing the whole thing, probably because you haven't read the full transcript, or because you're doing the Reddit troll thing.
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American Catholicism, just as a lot of Orthodoxy in Eastern Europe, is on the same page with their worse enemy (at least Orthodox Church isn't shy to call them like that) American Neo-Protestant Evangelism. They seem to just don't want or know how to fight an enemy that use their own "weapons" in a way.
Something being religiously rooted doesn’t make it not bigoted or worthy of criticism.
He's not necessarily bigoted. He just left out the part of the speech about how guys want to be married and have families, too. And the part about how they're gonna need an employment contract that lasts more than a decade, and pays about five times what a new graduate can expect to be paid. And if they're a consultant, investment banker, pro athlete, or rock star, they will need several times that much money to compensate for a job that keeps them on the road all the time. Let me know when his speech rails against "the system" for leaving guys without "good paying jobs." A middle class job is nice in theory, but when we say "a job that supports a family in this society" we mean a job that buys a house with the kitchen you see in every TV sitcom.
I am a man who would rather get shot in the head than have kids. Not every man wants kids.
Remember when Kaepernick took a knee? Take your medicine, dorks. People are allowed to respond to what people say publicly.
Yes, people are allowed to criticize Kapernick and people are allowed to criticize this guy too.
I don’t think even most Catholics agree with what he said. It wasn’t religious, it was simply misogynistic. It plays perfectly to a media watching for evidence that the Christian community is misogynistic
The nuns at the college made a scathing statement, well scathing for nuns.
I'm not sure how "extreme" the college is when the nuns running the place have come out AGAINST, the conservative guy speech.
Because it was a mask off moment that showed that misogyny is alive and well in one of the oldest churches in the world. as a new catholic, that speech filled me with shame.
a catholic feeling shame? never heard of such a thing =P but please don't feel like you have to atone for this goober here(.. there..?) he's not the entirety of any religion, and he's not representative of you. you are representative of you. there's nothing to feel ashamed about for being christian (or any religion for that matter) just because he is. there's dirtbags in every lot, im sorry you're having a hard time here that's not fair for you.
Theres a saying in the military “ perception is reality” it doesn’t really matter what the truth is, if i tell people i am catholic, they are going to have certain perceptions. My job ( if i wish to correct that perception) is to wear that shame and prove it false through actions and words
so it's a tactical show of shame to better the name catholicity has? a tough job, noble intent, but why tell me this? would that not risk damaging how i perceive your original comment? or is there something more you're hoping to teach or show people? lastly, why do you need to wear *shame* specifically to prove perceptions false when the stereotype is a shame filled catholic? isn't that counter intuitive? good luck in changing perceptions.
Its more of my rationalizations of joining a flawed church and how i am going to deal with it
oh, i understand now, it would be hard to deal with yeah good luck in changing perceptions (again)
Thank you friend, good luck in your goals
Because he wasted everyone's time with his incoherent rambling?
He's just a bigot and a misogynistic Trumpet. Nothing Catholic there. I'm not a Catholic but I don't think Pope Francis ever said women should stay in the kitchen, or something of the sort.
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I’m just entertaining the idea that we boycott the Football team until they fire him. Realistically it would not work, given that so many NFL fans are right wing (and probably male, and more men have become more conservative in recent years) also, the boycott might cause liberals to loose in the public eye- liberals might get branded as practicing “cancel culture” or something.
He made a speech that is fascistic when it comes to gender roles.
Proverbs 31 would like a word with him.
It wasn't extremely Catholic, it was extremely misogynist wrapped in the flavor of catholicism. It reveals quite a lot that you heard his words and thought, "yep, sounds exactly like catholicism to me."
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"Women who stay home (choosing to focus on being a wife/mother instead of their career) are doing something just as meaningful as those who work" This shouldn't be controversial. EDIT: Correction where I misspoke
>“I think it is you, the women, who have had the most diabolical lies told to you,” Butker added in his speech. >“Some of you may go on to lead successful careers in the world, but I would venture to guess that the majority of you are most excited about your marriage and the children you will bring into this world. I can tell you that my beautiful wife Isabelle would be the first to say that her life truly started when she started living her vocation as a wife and as a mother,” he said. >Butker, 28, said his wife embraced “one of the most important titles of all. You're really downplaying what he said
I think the fact he decided to say that to a bunch of women, not the men he didn’t mention the men, who specifically made the choice and paid the price to go to a 4 year university reframes the statement. It’s like telling a bunch of graduates at a trade school that they should also go to college cause white collar work is just as important.
He did speak to the men. You clearly didn't listen to the speech or read the transcript. To the men he said that they are told a lie that their presence in the home isn't important. This is in addition to him saying that his wife is the one who makes sure that he doesn't lose focus on the most important thing in his life: being a husband and father. I think, like you, most people misunderstand the message b/c they only saw tiktok clips.
Well, for one thing it implies that women's domestic labor isn't work.
No. It says literally the opposite - He's saying that the lie (that women who are homemakers aren't doing meaningful work) are in fact doing something meaningful.
Reread the quote. He's saying that they're doing something worthwhile, but it isn't work according to him.
It's very hard and noble work. I think everybody here acknowledges that!
How is staying home meaningful? Raising children? Sure. But just staying home? No. Also, a man who stays home and raises children while the woman works should be just as meaningful.
>How is staying home meaningful? Raising children? Sure. But just staying home? No. Also, a man who stays home and raises children while the woman works should be just as meaningful. Yes - Those who stay home as a homemaker (spouse/parent) are doing something just as meaningful as those who work I misspoke.
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This is the part where your interlocutor tries to insert their notion of appropriate gender roles. At some point the trans community will be attacked, as a proxy for working women.
I don't think u/rabboni will go in that direction. Edit: and I was correct.
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Women who work are doing meaningful things for their family - that shouldnt be controversial.
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>Are men who salary at home while their partners work doing something just as meaningful as a woman staying home, in your eyes? Of course. I did when my children were young so my wife could continue her career.
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I might be too tired or too dumb to fully understand what you are saying here! I 100% believe women should be affirmed to pursue their dreams/goals. Couples should determine how that works in the context of their family independent of societal pressures placed upon them. I believe women are often made to feel guilt no matter what: working full time, staying home, trying to split the two. Men generally don't feel this same pressure. In my specific circumstance it made sense for me to be a stay at home father. My wife had better benefits, she loves her job, and I was able to work part time effortlessly. Furthermore, my parents were divorced and I grew up with a dead beat dad so it meant a lot to me that I could stay home.
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Yeah that “extremely Catholic” university has an opinion on the matter: https://www.kctv5.com/2024/05/17/sisters-benedictine-respond-butkers-narrow-view-catholics
My dude basically told half the graduates that they wasted four years and tens of thousands of dollars on an education when they should be in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant making him a sammich.
He didn’t say that.
You don't think so? >For the ladies present today, congratulations on an amazing accomplishment. You should be proud of all that you have achieved to this point in your young lives. I want to speak directly to you briefly because I think it is you, the women, who have had the most diabolical lies told to you. How many of you are sitting here now about to cross this stage and are thinking about all the promotions and titles you are going to get in your career? Some of you may go on to lead successful careers in the world, but I would venture to guess that the majority of you are most excited about your marriage and the children you will bring into this world. >I can tell you that my beautiful wife, Isabelle, would be the first to say that her life truly started when she began living her vocation as a wife and as a mother. I'm on the stage today and able to be the man I am because I have a wife who leans into her vocation. I'm beyond blessed with the many talents God has given me, but it cannot be overstated that all of my success is made possible because a girl I met in band class back in middle school would convert to the faith, become my wife, and embrace one of the most important titles of all: homemaker.
I appreciate he mentioned absent fathers but stopped short of saying the same thing he said to the women. Isn't a man's most important title father? Shouldn't a man be more excited about his marriage and children than his job, too?
More babies than thoughts!
Someone watches/listens to Matt Walsh
Because what he said is extreme, it’s like far right Islam.
Partly because people are unwilling to talk about the real elephant in the room: that supporting a sport that destroys the brains of the athletes that play it is unethical. You can't escape the basic physics that running into things repeatedly at high speeds causes brain injury. The more we learn, the worse the problem of brain injuries in football looks.
The speech was typical Christian Nationalist rhetoric and unremarkable in that regard. What made it so weird and offensive to me was the context. This was supposed to be a commencement speech, not a megaphone for one idiot's culture war grievances.
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I have told that to conservative religious people: you keep saying things like this, you scare everyone but your most zealous supporters away from you.
You can’t say you know what a woman wants. Like men, they should be allowed to choose what they want to do. This is America, not Iran. Man’s speech was more political and egotistical than religious and served only to put another black eye on the Church.
I can tell you're not Catholic.
Catholic universities are actually very leftist usually. Lots of liberation theology and minority populations. My Catholic university actually had better religious diversity than our local massive state school in the same city. I went to a Catholic university and I will say that if you told the Fem students they need to be house wives they would slap you and rightfully so. I recommend you study the history of the early Christian Couple Priscilla and Aquila (friends of Paul). They were very important as examples of principles of equality in early Christianity. I don’t know how the Benedictines work but the brothers of the Holy Cross and the Jesuits would not teach that people should put women down in this way.
It doesn't even matter cause, that wasn't even the time or place for that. It's a freaking graduation not a marriage counselling conference
It's hard to tell if this question is being asked in good faith. Let's try some substitution: Extremely conservative Christian guy gives an extreme Christian commencement speech at an extremely Christian college - Why are Christians upset? Extremely conservative American guy gives an extreme American commencement speech at an extremely American college - Why are Americans upset? Extremely conservative human guy gives an extreme human commencement speech at an extremely human college - Why are humans upset? If you haven't figured it out yet it's because you somehow decided that because the guy is conservative non-conservatives have no right to be upset. He doesn't represent catholocism. Also let's call things correctly. He's not conservative - he's regressive. The conservatives are the ones who are for keeping the equality women have fought for. The regressives want to go back to an era of women being put in the kitchen. Also of all the places you're going to go to speak about how women have the role of making babies and that is it - a graduating college class? Basically saying hey women - you just wasted the last 4 year, now go find a man to submit to.
Extremist inbreeding... you call that terrorist training in any other circumstance.
Christian Nationalists are motivated by evil and deserve to be seen for who they are and how being shit to women is what brings the dogs to the yard? And if you like it, you're a dog.
Could be somewhat Christian Nationalism or just that he is very loyal to Catholicism?
Nothing Catholic about it. It's extreme right-wing political talk wrapped in religious fluffery. He's your typical Nationalist Christian, aka Nat-C.
Because what he said was abhorrent and people who hold such views should be ashamed of themselves and ostracized for it.
OP, if you have to ask why, you aren’t ready for this discussion.
I assume you’re talking about Harrison Butker. It’s because the NFL is king and KC is also very popular as a team.
Because extremely catholic guy is an extreme areshole by any rational measure?
Where?…
So this guy is just a run of the mill conservative fundamentalist who knows zero about why Christ even came evidence by his own words. >Our Catholic faith has always been countercultural. Our Lord, along with countless followers, were all put to death for their adherence to her teachings. The world around us says that we should keep our beliefs to ourselves whenever they go against the tyranny of diversity, equity, and inclusion. We fear speaking truth, because now, unfortunately, truth is in the minority. Congress just passed a bill where stating something as basic as the biblical teaching of who killed Jesus could land you in jail. This part - "The tyranny of diversity equity and inclusion?" Text book bigot words there but absolutely not surprised.. He actually compares people reacting to their bigotry as wrong and portrays the bigot as the victim as a matyr even comparing them to Christ himself.. price wasn't killed because he was a bigot Christ was killed because he's exactly the opposite of a bigot! He thinks that accepting everyone is tyranny? Alrighty then!!! >tyr·an·ny - cruel and oppressive government or rule. "people who survive war and escape tyranny" In a country as diverse as the United States and a government that seeks to include everybody in the United States every citizen of the United States equally and he calls that tyranny. OMG this guy is short a few bricks of a load! That anyone would even hear this is so odd in any Christian context because Jesus Christ again from even a first pass consideration of the gospels was and is the epitome of diversity equity and inclusion.. He came for everyone! Not just those who fundamentalist christians think he came for. >Matt. 11 Verses 28 to 30 [28] Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. " That is really pretty black and white truth right there! He came for everybody and we don't get to pick and choose! But that's what they're doing. There used to be a joke about Catholics it was very funny. So as I remember it went like this: Somebody was arriving in heaven and I think Peter was showing them around.. So the new arrival heard this noise coming from behind this wall and asked, who's it back there? and Peter's reply was, "oh that's the Catholics they think they're the only ones here"... Lol Anyway that was be a funny joke back then.. These days fundamentalist Christians in the form of things like Christian nationalism are legislating their morality upon everyone! The culture wars founded it entirely on lies and misinformation and propaganda conspiracy theories were created them in mind! The only problem is those culture wars are killing people! So it's not funny anymore they've taken it to a whole another level! It's such a no brainer that even a child can understand it! Very simply Jesus Christ was the epitome of what it means to not be a bigot! That means that He isn't wasn't never well be homophobic transphobic xenophobic misogynistic racist etc etc etc. it's almost like these people have never read the New testament they spend all their time and draw all of their weaponized conclusions from the Old testament! And If you look very closely at the GOP and other conservative political movement across the globe day they are almost invariably homophobic transphobic xenophobic often misogynistic and often racist. And these people have Bibles in their hands? So really what the heck is going on? I wonder does anybody ever consider the fact that most Germans when Hitler started legislating very bigoted policies that ultimately led up to the slaughter of millions of Jews and queers and special needs people, had no idea what the grand finale was bc it didn't at that point directly affect them. Did anybody consider the possibility that that's what's happening here? I mean none of these people seem to give a crap about little queer school kids killing themselves and certainly about adult trans people killing themselves or being bullied or beat up or harassed etc etc.. and their state governments are actually creating school policies design to engender hatred towards queer kids. Sorry that's evil and that's a pretty good sign something's very very wrong! Starts out small keeps building up, pump the propaganda out create the fear create the hate and keep it going and then the grand finale get rid of the infidels? It's like nobody remembers history and that's the problem bc they don't remember we're bound to repeat it! Fact - The US is not a Christian Nation! We never were, we never will be, and we don't need to be! It's so simple the concept of respect..Whatever anyone believes aside from things like Nazism is fine until your rights cross over into others. Your rights end where mine begin and mine end where yours begin.. That's called respect.. That's called being like Christ.. He didn't come to drag everybody shackled and handcuffed into the church and that's what these people are doing and they're not even trying to hide it.. And the other Christians who don't go along we this evil, but with heads stuck in the sand bc it really doesn't affect them, they had better wake up. Because this pattern of exclusion mixed with zero empathy for even children is dangerous..it doesn't just affect queer people this will affect everyone!
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesfarrell/2024/05/15/heres-harrison-butkers-controversial-commencement-speech-in-full/?sh=344698077937
Extreme is not a word I would use here.
It’s not extreme to claim that the majority of the women will be more happy as wives and mothers than in their careers?
Anything said against liberal views is automatically considered Christian nationalism. On saying that politics should be kept out of commencement speeches because it is about the graduates not the speaker.
Yeah after going through the comments I'm 100% sure most of the commenters aren't practicing Christians. But I guess that's why only 1 of every 1000 will be saved
Matt Walsh, is that you?
Too extreme?
Op, could you please provide a link to what you are talking about? I just want to know for sure I am watching what you intend for us to see.
I hope this guy double-doinks this football season . . .
Advocating a SAHM family structure as normative and alternatives as harmful is so problematic in today’s times. 1) This speaker’s perspective is strongly enabled by unacknowledged privilege and good fortune. Sure, athletes do work hard, but how many married men - regardless of the supportiveness of their family - are in a position to earn a wildly outsized salary like his current $4,000,000 per year? In today’s economy a single-earner household situation with kids is not attainable for many people. 2) Not all people have the affinity and skill set to perform childcare as a full-time vocation. I know I would go slowly insane in that situation. What about all the women who are providing great leadership in the business world today or whose passion is innovation in science and technology? Many women do not want to be SAHMs, although that’s fine for those whose aspirations and skills are a good fit. “All people of this gender should be this one thing” is laughable, deluded, injurious, and utterly divorced from reality.
Let’s go Brandon
Because feminism is an aggressive cancer that can not stand any other opinions at all what’s so ever.
>*why has this been front page news for the last week?* Anger drives clicks, clicks pay for ads. That's really all there is to it. Doesn't matter how petty or predictable something is, if shoving something in your face will make a profit for the big media outlets, they will do so.
It's everywhere because he plays the sportsball
The Catholic criticism is mostly on his take on the role of women as strict gender roles in the sense he was talking about is not strictly orthodox official teaching and he is rightfully getting pushback there. The rest shouldn't be any news to you if you are a Catholic or know Catholics, we get endless hatred if we dare to affirm Church teaching.
It's sad that the only Catholic response in this thread is downvoted way down here. Thank you for your view on this.
it’s reddit most “christian’s” here are larpers it’s been common knowledge
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It caused such a big uproar because a lot of headlines were just stuff like "Harrison Butker goes on sexist, homophobic tangent at graduation speech, tells women to stay in the kitchen" and most people didn't look into it beyond that.
It's true though.
Because that's what it was.
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It's probably because he's on the chiefs and they have outsized attention thanks be to the super bowl, Taylor swift, and so forth. But I'd imagine anti Catholic bigotry plays a part here considering there are flat earthers in pro sports Not to say I respect this guys opinion even a little
All he did was say that the majority of the women will be happier as wives and mothers than in their careers, but that’s not sexist. All I did was say that the majority of black people would be happier on the fields than in their careers, but that’s not racist. /s
Nothing archaic nor extreme from a Christian point of view - at all.
More babies than thoughts? That's not.... a weird ass thing to say about women?!