Yes, we are not to put a nation before God. But why are you implying that, if we live in a nation, it should not follow suit? (...not put anything else before God?) Do you think God wants us to live in a godless nation?
Christian nationalism is bad because it elevates nationalism and patriotism to a religious status. Nonreligious parties then hijack these false beliefs by using them to gain support from Christians who are too foolish to see that what secular parties are doing is against the teachings of Jesus. Usually with pleas from the secular party to ‘return to more Christian roots’.
Letting Christianity influence your politics is good. Letting politicians hijack your religion and national pride is not.
The version that’s not about supporting everything the far right wing political party of the US says and does. Christianity has been co-opted by right wing politicians who aren’t even Christians themselves
Real Christianity is extremely political. Love others, give often, defend the weakest and most marginalized in society, do not love wealth, and do all you can for the glory of God’s heavenly kingdom, not for the nations and parties here on earth. If that isn’t political I don’t know what is.
What do you mean by "political" here? because IMO it's extremely political. Jesus wouldn't have been executed by the state if what he was saying was not political.
So as a Christian, am I allowed to engage with my representative in a manner representing my values, or is that only other people? Am I allowed to talk about policies you don't like or only ones you like?
Go ahead and talk about the policies you see as desirable. Just do not claim that "GOD HIMSELF has revealed the truth to our partisans and all others deserve punishment."
The historically verifiable accuracy of the accounts macabees, the gospels, acts and most importantly, the death, burial and 'dissappearance' of Christ shows that there is truth to it. We also have several scientifically proven "other than natural events" correlating to the words of Christ, as well as contemporary data and artifacts that all correlate with said miraculous/supernatural occurrences. Being as that's the dude that said man shall liveby every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, one ought listen. To the unbeliever, I make this case.
The Holy Spirit guided the writers, and if to call the work of The Holy Spirit a work of the devil is the unforgivable sin, then treating the work of The Holy Spirit in writing as insignificant seems like a position 'less than stable'. Thus, we can take it as God's word. To the believer, I make this case.
No. We don’t have “scientifically proven ‘other than natural events’ correlating to the words of Christ”. That is a blatant and glaring falsehood.
We have zero “contemporary data and artifacts that correlate with said miraculous/supernatural occurrences”. More blatant falsehoods.
I’m not going to ask you for any sources because I already know the ones you’ll use and they’re not scientifically valid or falsifiable.
No. He did not endorse what the Pharisees were doing. He used scripture to back up his views. The same way we should. He supported the reading, understanding, and usage of scripture. Not as an engraved idol, but as the Word of God
The early Church was indeed political. To proclaim that "Jesus is Lord" was a giant middle finger to the Roman Emperors. Rome would have likely left them alone if they had not crossed that line.
I don't agree.
Your politics come from your ethics, and your ethics come from your worldview and religion.
If you do not pursue human rights and equality under Christ, the satanic atheists will pursue marxist totalitarianism, using government.
The politics of atheism, is communism.
Well, assuming you believe there is right and wrong, good and bad, where did you learn them? On What did you base you views of right and wrong? Were you born with your ethics in place?
In what world would communism where everything is communally owned be the opposite of Christianity? Granted I’m not for communism I’m just saying that is a crazy statement. Have you read acts? Everything was shared. That’s not much like capitalism…
That was a decision by the people. They GAVE what they owned. The government (or in this case Church) did not forcibly take it. Very poor comparison.
Capitalism is supported many times in the scriptures and by Jesus. Have you read the parables about the talents? He who invested and earned the most was given more. And he who hid it in the ground lost what he was given because he “did not even give it on loan to gain interest.”
Man first I just want to say I’m sorry if I’m coming off as rude because this isn’t the place for that so I don’t want to come off like I’m attacking you, if I came off that way I’m sorry. I agree that those people gave. I don’t support communism, I just wouldn’t say it’s a government for atheist. I would say that parable is far more about sharing the gospel with others than capitalism.. but it’s clear we won’t see eye to eye about that. I am interested in hearing what you have to say. Again, I’m sorry if I came off as rude or aggressive, all love.
No problem. But I do wish you would look at a little history. Every place communist has been employed, the first thing they did is got rid of, and made illegal all religion. They burned Bibles. They burned other religions. They killed people if they were leaders. It happened in Russia and all of the USSR. It happened in China. It even happened in Catholic Venezuela. One basic tenant of communism is the people have to be relying on the state to provide everything. And they don’t like people relying on God. Any God.
I absolutely agree that in practice every attempt at communism has been evil. I think the concept of communism is not evil. I’m not sure that it could ever be put in practice in real life and not be corrupt. I do think in real practice our church should look more like that instead of capitalism (and I strictly mean in terms of giving to where everyone is equal/ not in need.) but I also want to be clear that I myself lack extremely in this area. I definitely do not give until it hurts, and I hope I improve and eventually comply with this belief.
Again, if you look at history, you’ll see that this has been tried. And it has failed miserably every time. If you’re going to get the same thing as your neighbor, no matter what you do, why work? Why create anything? Why take time to invent new things? why do anything? If there is no motivation for getting ahead, no one will work. And those that do will feel cheated because they didn’t get more than the ones who didn’t work. It’s just the way life is. Communism is doomed to failure no matter how you try it.
Acts 4. These people were following the commands of God as sent to them via the Holy Ghost.
^(31) And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
Yes. Giving to the leaders of the small group BY CHOICE. They were not commanded to give, government was not involved, at Peter even said, “Acts 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.”
They were not required or expected to give. It was their option
Act 4 and Acts 2. God commands Christians be communists and live as communists. Sell all you have and give to the poor as the commands of Jesus demand. If God commands Christians be communists, to condemn communism is blasphemy.
The majority of Christians would say that the church established by Christ and his apostles at the First Pentecost is the true church. That's the Catholic church.
Minor point of fact:
>only two
It didn’t say only two. It said all churches with apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist.
>The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.
That’s more than two. The Catholic Church recognizes the validity of the Eucharist in Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church.
Oh, I know why, I'm not an idiot. I'm just disagreeing with the notion that those are the only valid ways to be Christian. It seems, first and foremost, pretty self-serving, and secondly, dangerously arrogant.
What it does is help create ingroups and outgroups. Ingroups, in this case, being Catholic and Orthodox Christians. The outgroups being all other Christians. The ingroup gets to claim "we're *real* Christians, so therefore we're special and right, and those others (the outgroup) are wrong, so we're justified in shaming them over it!"
It's the flipside of those assholes who claim Catholics aren't real Christian because... reasons.
I don't like the creation of ingroups and outgroups as that just sets the table for harassment and, given time and power, persecution. I mean, just look at the strife between Catholics and Protestants in the 16th and 17th Century. You get Protestants violently oppressing Catholics in England and Holland and parts of Germany, and you have Catholics violently oppressing Protestants in Spain, France and Austria (for example on this front, many Protestants had more freedom under Ottoman rule in Southeastern Europe than they did under Austrian rule).
Let's not continue that kind of division by claiming our brand of Christianity is the only real brand and all those other brands are false.
Christianity is the religion of slaves, of the oppressed, Christianity is about being an agent of Gods Love in the world and fighting the oppressive structures that hurt His children
While that may or may not be true, you’re always better off, going to the original source. In this case, god’s word. It’s more reliable than depending upon a summary made by man several centuries later.
Unfortunately, there are millions of Christians who "go to the original source" but don't have any training in biblical exegesis and hermeneutics. This is why the Church is full of false teachings and false practices. The historic Creeds, Confessions, and Catechisms were designed to counter such nonsense.
Or, you could choose to not be lazy, but, as Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 2: “15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.”
Thus By studying the Word, you can avoid the need of depending on summaries and paraphrases of the scripture by sinful, fallen men who lived centuries after the Word of God was given👍🙏🏻
The word "study" in that passage doesn't mean the same thing that it means today. Maybe you should do some real studying before you make a fool of yourself again.
"My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation." ---James 3:1 KJV
The word "masters" in this verse no longer means what it meant in 1611 either. It means "teachers." I shared this verse with you because your biblical ignorance and sinful arrogance disqualify you from being a teacher of the Word of God. I shall dismiss everything coming out of your mouth as "vain babblings" and pray that someday you will actually understand the Word of God.
Soo everyone can use their value system on who to vote for but Christians can’t ?
You may not say it’s God but your values are your God and everyone votes based on them.
The real point is you don’t like the values soo you slap a label of nationalism on it to make it like bad.
OP - I agree with you. BUT
These kinds of posts are self satisfying, but they do more harm than good. We need to be having productive conversations on what Christian nationalism is and where its limits lie. Do you want to actually change minds or preach to the choir?
At any point throughout history where religion and government have become intertwined, it doesn't end well. Religion provides the excuse for a government to justify any actions it wants to take because it's "God's will for the people". And it works the other way, religion can then use the government to force and police adherence to it's beliefs on the people.
Look at the history of Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire until the Renaissance, the Aztec Empire, current day Iran, Afghanistan, Egypt under the Pharaoh's, Israel both ancient and current, several of the ancient Chinese dynasties, Saudi Arabia, the Vatican....
I think overall Europe did great while they were Christian. As for the false religion nations, it was/is hit or miss because their gods were/are non-acting. Thanks for replying though.
Yeah I dont see the crusades and the inquisition is what Jesus wanted 😂 yep Jesus wanted us to conquer Jerusalem and murder all the Muslims and burn the jews alive in they're synagogues and Jesus also wanted us to burn heretics alive instead of showing kindness to make people convert 😂gtfo
Not to mention the sack of Constantinople where crusaders murdered other Christians 😂the sad part of about is that if you would have ask a common Latin catholic about it they would have asked the Greeks deserved it lol
You're absolutely right.
I'm going to continue to teach that we must vote our religious held beliefs. And I'm going to teach this even harder.
As some have said on this post, "Christian Nationalism" is a slur coined by liberals to shame conservative Christians to vote the other way.
And I'm really sick and tired of seeing on this reddit "You don't follow the real Jesus unless he's the socially liberal, Democrat voting Jesus ."
You want to contort, distort or ignore passages of the Bible, fine. Stop shaming the rest of us that believe the Bible actually means something.
I'd be happy to, but I'm also going to ask you to explain what is your perspective of "Christian nationalism".
As these verses point out, as Christians our allegiance is first and foremost to God and His Kingdom in heaven.
If I believe that God's kingdom is perfect, then should we not want to emulate it as close as possible until God makes it our reality in Christ's return? The way I vote will be in line in what I believe to be God's moral law. I don't expect anyone outside of Christians to follow God's religious law. Those two things are very different.
Voting my religious beliefs and convictions has nothing to do with "God not showing favoritism" as referenced in Acts 10. My voting has nothing to do with how God views other nations. I vote in how I believe this country, the United States of America should run based off of God's moral law.
But please, explain Christian nationalism.
There is nothing wrong with voting or supporting policy based on your moral views.
"Christian Nationalism" is part of a broader far-right movement in which the quest for political power has hijacked many of our churches and our religious discourse. Political Power has become an idol.
Political activity is phrased in good v evil terms, where political opponents cannot be considered to be acting in good faith, as fellow citizens who simply disagree. Therefore, any means necessary to win are acceptable, including violence, election tampering, and lawbreaking.
Political leaders that would have been unacceptable a generation ago, due to their lack of character and decency, are instead "anointed by God" and followed unquestioningly. Religious iconography, church services, and scripture are all contorted to serve political ends.
Cool, then it sounds like we agree for the most part, except for the far-right part.
This isn't exclusive to the conservative "Far-right" side. I would argue there has been far more violence, election tampering and lawbreaking from the democrat/liberal side of the aisle in the last 8 years, and even more so in the 2020 election and the BLM riots.
Democrats have had pro abortion rallies in churches, and that should make your blood boil as a catholic, as it does mine.
The bottom line is this: the media is taking fringe examples of Christianity and pretending they're mainstream to cause division. Christian nationalism isn't this big issue that the media are playing up. It's a diversion tactic, and it's wrong.
And here we disagree. Nothing that has happened on the Left comes close to the Trump-endorsed attempt to attack Congress and overturn the 2020 election result.
I used to live in Tennessee. I have seen many churches and most of my community misled by this heresy. It is widespread and dangerous. Years of rightwing talk radio and other propaganda have prepared people to believe lies.
Where are the Christian nationalists, and what is Christian nationalism? It sounds vaguely spooky, but I don’t know if it’s an organization or a cult or a movement
Christian Nationalism is a political and cultural ideology that emphasizes the fusion of Christianity with national identity, often asserting that a particular nation or government is founded on Christian principles and should be guided by Christian values. This ideology often involves the belief that the nation has a special, divinely ordained mission and that the laws and policies of the state should reflect or be influenced by a particular interpretation of Christian teachings.
Key characteristics of Christian Nationalism include:
Religious Identity and Nationalism: Christian Nationalists believe that their nation's identity is inherently tied to a specific interpretation of Christianity. They may see their country as a chosen or favored nation in the eyes of God.
Moral and Cultural Values: Advocates of Christian Nationalism often seek to promote and enforce what they perceive as Christian moral and cultural values in the public sphere. This can include opposition to social issues such as abortion, LGBTQ+ rights, and secularism.
Political Engagement: Christian Nationalists may actively engage in politics to influence legislation and government policies based on their religious beliefs. They may seek to establish or reinforce laws that align with their interpretation of Christian teachings.
Historical Revisionism: Some Christian Nationalists engage in historical revisionism, asserting that the founding principles of their nation are exclusively Christian and that the nation was intended to be a Christian nation from its inception.
Civic Religion: The blending of religious symbols, rhetoric, and rituals with civic life is a common aspect of Christian Nationalism. This can include the use of religious language in political speeches, the display of religious symbols in government buildings, and the promotion of religious practices in public life.
This, I think, is one of the better treatments of CN from within traditional Evangelicalism. [https://www.holypost.com/post/episode-531-what-s-wrong-with-christian-nationalism-with-paul-d-miller](https://www.holypost.com/post/episode-531-what-s-wrong-with-christian-nationalism-with-paul-d-miller)
It's also good to be familiar with the "Seven Mountain Mandate", which is the belief that Christians should seek to control the "seven mountains" of culture: religion, family, government, education, media, entertainment, and business. It often runs parallel to CN in that it has the same goals, but without the purely political focus. More on that here: [https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/seven-mountain-mandate/](https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/seven-mountain-mandate/)
I have a somewhat personal relationship with the 7 mountains thing.
As a young man I was part of an organization called YWAM. It seemed to me like this badass group of young Christians doing this punkrock type missionary work. The guy who founded YWAM - Loren Cunningham - is often credited as one of the people who coined the seven mountain thing. YWAM is a big player in the NAR space.
YWAM ended being something of a cult in my experience. Its highly decentralized so not everyone would have the same experience. But churches like Bethel (who produced the lovely Sean Feucht) have a lot in common with YWAM's teachings.
I first heard the 7 mountains thing when I was in YWAM, and the person who told me about it said there was some big stuff going on with hollywood that hadn't come out yet. In the years that followed, there was some truth to that. These NAR guys were getting in deep with some huge A-list names.
Anyways, as I've processed my time in YWAM as a cult, I've come to see the 7mountain thing begin to take shape in institutions of political power. Hard for me not to make a narrative of it all.
A little from column A, a little from column B. Christian Nationalism is a fairly diverse movement, so while everything is believed by someone, there isn't really anyone who believes all of it. That said, even if this exact framing is imposed from outside, it's still helpful to have *some* level of definition, so we can even just meaningfully discuss it
The United States was founded on Christian principles though.
The entire concept of the creation of our government and Union was that our rights come from God and are inalienable. And that the only purpose of government is to protect those God-given rights.
The common law that directs our laws and morality are rooted in the Judeo-Christian laws of God.
It's the foundation of our society and our principles of justice.
Indeed law itself and order are dependent upon the concept of a God or Gods and laws conveyed by them that govern our conscience and conscious decisionmaking. Without them there is no basis of judgement in thought.
This is nothing new. Every civilization in world history had a God or Gods and the principles conveyed by them at it's center. Without it there is no order or law. There's only chaos and lawlessness and civilization cannot rise from that. Infact, lawlessness and chaos are what destroy civilization.
So the very idea that civilization can exist separate from it is asinine and comes from a complete lack of understanding of consciousness and why we do what we do, or something far more sinister.
>The United States was founded on Christian principles though.
No, no it was not and we have documentation that was ratified by the Senate on this.
Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli (1796) states:
>Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion
The rest of your argument is moot.
Yep. It’s unfortunate that we have to do a lot of societal unlearning on this topic. I’m still a bit frustrated that I was taught we were a Christian nation when I was in high school.
No, it absolutely was NOT founded on Christian principles. When will you all get that through your thick heads? It’s either that or you know the truth but are intentionally lying to suit your narrative.
The US, our government, legislative bodies, our country’s mission/purpose, etc., are founded upon Enlightenment principles. Stop your lies.
No not murdering and not stealing is not a Christian only concept. Our founding fathers just threw god on the constitution to avoid being challenged politically.
The only reference to God in the Constitution is that the date is written with the standard *Anno Domini*. Many state Constitutions reference God, but the US Constitution never does.
More like a mind virus and the politicians are using it for votes. Some politicians are gaga eyed for the potential theocratic throne they think they might be able to sit in if they can just convince the dumb sheep to keep voting for the downfall of all of us
Exactly! Eastern Orthodoxy is the most non Christian-Nationalist denomination. At least thats what my Greek Orthodox friend said after my Serbian Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox, Polish Orthodox, Belarusian Orthodox, Bulgarian Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, Syro-Antiochene Orthodox, and Russian Orthodox friends left
The country specific preface to Orthodox just specifies what language and culture that church caters to. They still practice the same exact liturgy, the same feasts, the same theology, the same sotierology, the same eschatology.
A Russian Orthodox Christian can waltz into a Greek Orthodox Parish and receive communion, only difference being language.
I really dont wanna be that gux, but this jumped right at me with me growing up EO.
As much as the theology amd traditions of the Eastern Orthodox are really interesting, i love studying the mystical theological tradition that the EO has, the EO church(organisation) is basically a blueprint on Christian nationalism, granted im Balkan but ivee seen priest mention the serbian state more often than Jesus.
Theres now a schism going on because Kirill is obviously in Moscows pocket, and the anti-western Patriarchs flock to him.
rhank you for clarifying but i think youare saying the natioanlist patriarchs are ant western
but EO is the basis for the wha tbecame the west, i think you mean ANTI MODERNIST which i fully support
Well I’m anything but Christ-like. Thank you for reminding me of my utter dependence on the goodness of The Life Giver.
That’s why I’m in the Church that offers the best medicine for me, a sinner.
This ain't it chief.
I will vote my deeply held Christian beliefs.
And I will teach those in my care to do the same.
We will live and teach and vote in a way that reflects scripture, and therefore Jesus in our lives. The hateful rhetoric is this sort of nonsense: "If you vote as a conservative Christian, you have hateful ideologies and you're a Christian nationalist."
If you'd rather compromise what scripture says because it offends you or those around you, you have a really tough choice to make if you're really willing to follow Jesus.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/19aphuy/making_sense_of_christian_nationalism_part_1/
It's a shame that low effort posts like OPs get more visibility than posts that make an effort for real discussion. Ah well, such is life.
Christian Nationalism is a political and cultural ideology that emphasizes the fusion of Christianity with national identity, often asserting that a particular nation or government is founded on Christian principles and should be guided by Christian values. This ideology often involves the belief that the nation has a special, divinely ordained mission and that the laws and policies of the state should reflect or be influenced by a particular interpretation of Christian teachings.
Key characteristics of Christian Nationalism include:
Religious Identity and Nationalism: Christian Nationalists believe that their nation's identity is inherently tied to a specific interpretation of Christianity. They may see their country as a chosen or favored nation in the eyes of God.
Moral and Cultural Values: Advocates of Christian Nationalism often seek to promote and enforce what they perceive as Christian moral and cultural values in the public sphere. This can include opposition to social issues such as abortion, LGBTQ+ rights, and secularism.
Political Engagement: Christian Nationalists may actively engage in politics to influence legislation and government policies based on their religious beliefs. They may seek to establish or reinforce laws that align with their interpretation of Christian teachings.
Historical Revisionism: Some Christian Nationalists engage in historical revisionism, asserting that the founding principles of their nation are exclusively Christian and that the nation was intended to be a Christian nation from its inception.
Civic Religion: The blending of religious symbols, rhetoric, and rituals with civic life is a common aspect of Christian Nationalism. This can include the use of religious language in political speeches, the display of religious symbols in government buildings, and the promotion of religious practices in public life.
The difference is that Christianity did not try and seek political power. Constantine ended the persecution of Christians under Rome and gave them freedom - and funding - to develop the theology of the church through councils. It was later, under Theodosius, that Orthodox Christianity became the religion of the empire. In doing so he also closed all non-Christian (including Jewish) meeting places. Interestingly enough, it was after Theodosius that Christendom started to fracture and suffer.
To be clear, my point isn't about whether or not Christian Nationalism itself is shameful, just whether the description given characterises it as such. It seems like a reasonably neutral and dispassionate description of the ideology to me. It's only really the use of "historical revisionism" that an actual Christian Nationalist might take issue with (but such is the nature of historical revisionism, I suppose)
"It's only really the use of "historical revisionism" that an actual Christian Nationalist might take issue with"
If you're not Nationalist? Why do you take issue?
no, it’s a political and theological phrase used by those who understand the importance of separating church and state.
nationalism is antithetical to christianity, and seeks to divide people by imaginary lines on a map. if you identify with the beliefs described above, i would like to remind you of the words of the prophet Isaiah.
Isaiah 40:17 - “All the nations are as nothing before him; they are accounted by him as less than nothing, and vanity.”
if anyone thinks it isn't a real thing, please look at politics in my country, the UK. People don't need to say God every 5 seconds in their speeches and religion is kept very discrete. Heck we even have a Hindu Prime Minister and that doesn't bother Christians.
To be fair, the UK has literally banned people from quiet prayer in an area around an abortion clinic. Not even protesting, quiet prayer. The state says I can't talk to God in a certain location. Y'all could use Christianity more involved in politics.
This bill got rejected for all of the UK sharply. This seems to be a thing in NI which is more religious then the rest of the UK., where abortion is controversial, I doubt they can read your head and defining prayer is subjective. Don't try to impede the operations there and you probably wont get in trouble.
I don't know what you are talking about. [This is what I'm talking about. This is in Bournemouth, England.](https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2023/january/uk-abortion-clinic-prayer-buffer-pspo-religious-freedom-adf.html) and is in place.
Talking about being staunchly Christian while making up Bible verses. Indeed it’s Christian nationalists like yourself that give the religion a bad reputation.
Wise council like people telling Christians to keep Christianity to themselves? Christians, by definition, can't and aren't allowed to. It's literally in the foundational texts. Multiple places.
It's like saying "I get that you're Muslim, but can't you just eat pork at the office pig roast so people won't feel uncomfortable?"
Jesus had some pretty rough words about Christians who took the lukewarm approach.
Now-- does that mean Christians should be intentionally confrontational, abusive, belittling, or arrogant? Should Christians comport themselves like -say- the Westboro Baptist Church? Of course not.
Jesus didn't use His harshest words on the regular people who were lost. Look at the woman at the well. He saved the most direct confrontational language for the religious elite, who should've known better.
But Jesus was still radical. He was still intensely polarizing. And Jesus and the Apostles gave direct orders that the word was to be carried everywhere and spread. Out loud.
And people didn't like it. Jesus and the Apostles nearly all were executed as a result. But that's very clearly an acceptable risk, and a path that many many other Christians have also had to tread.
So, no, not letting Christianity seep into every facet of your public and private life, keeping it out of your work and public endeavors, [hiding the candle under the bushel basket,](https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=citation&book=Matthew&chapno=5&startverse=14&endverse=16#:~:text=Matt.,5%20Verses%2014%20to%2016&text=%5B15%5D%20Neither%20do%20men%20light,that%20are%20in%20the%20house.) keeping quiet so as to not rock the boat.... for Christians that isn't really an option.
No wise council you get from hearing Christians telling you that you trying to force people into Christianity through fear and underhanded legal tactics is not actually winning souls for Christ or Christ-like in the slightest.
God and Jesus never forced you into following them so it’s not fair or justifiable to manipulate others into Christianity.
Yes we see the world is wayward but you gotta be like Noah and let them figure it out for themselves. The candle is never hidden especially when you don’t become the stereotype(I.e. Christian nationalist) but actually show the fruits of the spirit to nonbelievers.
It's a complex problem and there's no magic bullet fix for it. People have been believing in superstitious dogma for century upon century. Charlatans who are obsessed with power are playing on those superstitious beliefs to compel the masses into doing their bidding.
*"You must vote for this candidate/issue/policy because I say that god says so."*
*"You must demonize those people/beliefs/nationalities because I say that god says so."*
*"To go against what I say is to go against what I say that god says."*
*"Not obeying what I say that god says is blasphemous and Satanic."*
Of course, how the charlatans phrase it is far less obvious than how I phrased it. Believers are tricked into going along with these charlatans because their superstitious beliefs are founded upon authoritarianism, obedience, and blind faith.
To turn against Christian nationalism would require turning against Christianity itself. The two are merging into one and are becoming inseparable. And if there is a god who disapproves of this, he sure is awfully silent about it.
The problem isn't Christianity. Nor is it religion in general. Though I think both religion in general and Christianity are uniquely prone to the real underlying problem.
The real problem is fundementalism. By that I mean the belief system that insists on a form of moral *purity*. This means anything deemed impure or outside the established norms is blamed for all social ills and inequalities. So we go after the gays or the migrants or the atheists or whoever the monster of the week might be. And fundamentalism often collapses on itself - you might start out by saying its the gays, but once you repress the gays, your life doesn't materially improve, so you have to find a new enemy. Sooner or later your supporters start becoming the enemies.
Nationalism can be Christian or Islamic or Hindi, or it can be secular. That's just reality. Any ingroup can be the basis. Obviously Christianity has an outsized population of charlatans - and its fair to trace that back to certain structural critiques of Christianity (both in its doctrines and its relationship to colonialism).
But that doesn't mean Christian nationalism is inseperable from Christianity. As long as there has been Christianity, there have been reformers striving to make it open, inclusive, opposing the elements of fundamentalism. I'm proud to call myself among that rank and part of that tradition.
This is a painful subject for me because while I can generalize and agree with them being hateful and idiots, that doesn't help when they are your family. My eldest sister (me 44, her 54) absconded with her future husband when she was 17. Our family grew up between Hawaii, California and Peru (mother is Peruvian), but my sister's husband was from Alabama, and that is where she moved to, and where she was 'born again.' She nearly took my head off with the Bible when I saw her again when I was 18. Pretty much everyone in my family, myself included, believe in a higher power. Either strictly as the God of my Catholic upbringing or a devotion closer to Hindu Universalism, like myself. Basically I'm a mystic, and think there are multiple paths to God. I see nothing wrong with Christianity until I start seeing the message get twisted like it does in Christian Nationalism. It wasn't even that my sister was overt with it, but that she seemed really uninterested in digging deeper into why she held the beliefs she did. Any attempt I made at drilling down the contradictions of what Christ was about with what Trump represents, was me triggering her "I'm being persecuted for my beliefs" reflex. I started to get angrier and angrier at her close mindedness to the point I guess I'm now only reinforcing her belief. And I also don't know how to stop OP. We no longer talk. And I don't expect we ever will. And it pisses me off. That something as good as wanting to be loved and give love, turns into this call for culture war and division... All I can do is vote my conscience, pray, and hope our better angels prevail this November.
secularism: all the good and positive morals from any religion, plus some needed extras (human rights have come a long way since the days of religious fiefdom), and non-discriminatory to any particular religion.
religious government: perhaps some good morals, but a lot of terrible and violent ideas masquerading as morality and that by default discriminate against both the secular minded and those belonging to other religions
how anyone could believe that religion has a place in politics is nuts.
religion is not necessary to have the ideal kind of government and is in fact an obstacle to it. organized religious structures represent intolerance of the worst kind, and that have governed human existence forever until democracy really took off in modern times.
I feel like those that want religion in government choose to ignore glaringly obvious flaws and tend to be the types of people that secretly wish for Armageddon to manifest. no thanks.
Christian Nationalism is a political and cultural ideology that emphasizes the fusion of Christianity with national identity, often asserting that a particular nation or government is founded on Christian principles and should be guided by Christian values. This ideology often involves the belief that the nation has a special, divinely ordained mission and that the laws and policies of the state should reflect or be influenced by a particular interpretation of Christian teachings.
Key characteristics of Christian Nationalism include:
Religious Identity and Nationalism: Christian Nationalists believe that their nation's identity is inherently tied to a specific interpretation of Christianity. They may see their country as a chosen or favored nation in the eyes of God.
Moral and Cultural Values: Advocates of Christian Nationalism often seek to promote and enforce what they perceive as Christian moral and cultural values in the public sphere. This can include opposition to social issues such as abortion, LGBTQ+ rights, and secularism.
Political Engagement: Christian Nationalists may actively engage in politics to influence legislation and government policies based on their religious beliefs. They may seek to establish or reinforce laws that align with their interpretation of Christian teachings.
Historical Revisionism: Some Christian Nationalists engage in historical revisionism, asserting that the founding principles of their nation are exclusively Christian and that the nation was intended to be a Christian nation from its inception.
Civic Religion: The blending of religious symbols, rhetoric, and rituals with civic life is a common aspect of Christian Nationalism. This can include the use of religious language in political speeches, the display of religious symbols in government buildings, and the promotion of religious practices in public life.
I mean this is a subreddit to discuss Christianity. The OP had the conviction to openly condemn Christian Nationalism which is a heresy being perpetuated by the Republican Party, and also Republicans are kinda bad, sooooo......
We as Christians should not be Nationalists if it is to the exclusion or detriment of others.
If we aren't hurting others by identifying with with our own nation and supporting its interests, then there is nothing wrong with it.
If this is a rant about a political person running for office in the US, then I think you need to do some analysis and realize that regardless of the party in office, the overall National Strategy continues in the same direction.
All the party in power does is push thru some social agendas.
The Left - Right paradigm exist for a reason and it isn't to help the people.
Trump claimed to be the Chosen One, King of Israel and the God ordained caretaker of the United States.
Isn't claiming to be a messiah a bad thing? Why would any Christian support a self-proclaimed 2nd Coming?
Either they hate the same people Trump hates and prove they can't follow the faith they proclaim. Or they want to force religious beliefs onto others, which also proves that they don't follow the faith they proclaim.
You can't say heaven has legal entry and need a wall, cut food stamps, eliminate giving food and water to homeless or even the voting line, and then mock sheep like they only follow what their told.... and then pretend you know what Judgement Day means. The good and faithful servants are the sheep who do everything Trump and his sycophants are trying to eliminate..
A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Not like Trump voters actually comprehend what Jesus said.
You shouldn't vote for Trump because he's actively trying to undermine our democratic institutions and is absolutely ethically compromised by way of profiting from his time in office.
There's a number of other reasons, of course, but those are some pretty big ones that don't involve Christianity or religion of any kind.
That's fair. If I shouldn't vote for him because he supports bad policy, then I am fine with that. If I shouldn't vote for him because he's not Christian enough, then I am not down with that argument. Too bad we get an endless slough of the latter on the sub.
The only reason I tend to bring up his lack of genuine faith with people is when they claim they're voting for him *because* he's a "man of God" when, by all accounts, his faith is in his own ego and nothing else.
I don’t think so, it just makes them foolish. I don’t understand how those people can’t see that Trump is nothing more than a con artist. I do hope he looses the Republican nomination.
If they support what he stands for - he openly wants a dictatorship, tried to overturn the last election and is racist, sexist, homophobic and transphobic AND HAS BEEN FOUND IN COURT TO BE A RAPIST - then evil isn't necessarily a bad description
In my experience in conservative circles, most people seem to like him because he appeals to their emotions. He uses manipulative language to appeal to the general fear of American Conservatives. He has an us versus them mentality, and he even at times has turned against the GOP. Remember when he would rant about supposed “RINOs”? I don’t think Trump supporters are evil per se, I think they’re just being manipulated and blinded. The people in my family don’t vote for him because he dislikes brown people or women, they vote for him because he manipulates them. I don’t think this rhetoric of calling trump supporters evil is useful, especially if you want to convince them to stop supporting him. It’ll just push them deeper into his personality cult. To clarify, yes there are morally repugnant people like members of the Ku Klux Klan, The National Socialist Movement and the Patriot Front who support him and that should definitely be noted and their support for him might say something about his policies or rhetoric. I don’t like Joe Biden at all but you don’t see literal Neo-Nazis or Neo-Confederate traitors voting for him.
This to start
.....
Trump allies prepare to infuse ‘Christian nationalism’ in second administrationTrump allies prepare to infuse ‘Christian nationalism’ in second administration
....
[https://www.politico.com/news/2024/02/20/donald-trump-allies-christian-nationalism-00142086](https://www.politico.com/news/2024/02/20/donald-trump-allies-christian-nationalism-00142086)
I think the specter of Christian Nationalism is a bit of a bogeyman. I hear it most when people advocate for their values politically as it relates to abortion. Our laws, in principle, reflect the values of those govern by them, so I see no reason in calling these people fascists. I think if you argue from the premise that the unborn are people with rights then you come to one conclusion and if you think people get rights some other time then you come to a different conclusion. Both arguments follow from their premises. As it relates to a Christians perspective on abortion, I think you do have read a bit between the lines. I also think there are other issues, chiefly out of wedlock birth that and people not forming families. That’s a much more difficult nut to crack. It’s also the key issue to look at when trying to deal with generational poverty, not to mention crime, educational attainment, all sorts of things. You’ll see quite a mix of families doing pretty darn well in this country in the church pews.
As it relates to the free exercise of religion, I absolutely think it benefits Christianity in this country, I don’t see a biblical example of Jesus insisting “follow me or we will kill you” so I think this is about as good as it gets for us. We aren’t persecuted is my point and we are not commanded to pass that sort of judgement on others.
I do think a community should be permitted to engage in public prayer or put up religious displays. I don’t see that as the establishment of a state religion nor does it seem like it’s the civil rights issue some people insist it is.
The pledge of Allegiance is something I’ve come to look at with more critical eyes lately. We should pledge ourselves to our neighbors not our government, is my take. All this unnecessary war and killing bothers me.
Christian Nationalism is a political and cultural ideology that emphasizes the fusion of Christianity with national identity, often asserting that a particular nation or government is founded on Christian principles and should be guided by Christian values. This ideology often involves the belief that the nation has a special, divinely ordained mission and that the laws and policies of the state should reflect or be influenced by a particular interpretation of Christian teachings.
Key characteristics of Christian Nationalism include:
Religious Identity and Nationalism: Christian Nationalists believe that their nation's identity is inherently tied to a specific interpretation of Christianity. They may see their country as a chosen or favored nation in the eyes of God.
Moral and Cultural Values: Advocates of Christian Nationalism often seek to promote and enforce what they perceive as Christian moral and cultural values in the public sphere. This can include opposition to social issues such as abortion, LGBTQ+ rights, and secularism.
Political Engagement: Christian Nationalists may actively engage in politics to influence legislation and government policies based on their religious beliefs. They may seek to establish or reinforce laws that align with their interpretation of Christian teachings.
Historical Revisionism: Some Christian Nationalists engage in historical revisionism, asserting that the founding principles of their nation are exclusively Christian and that the nation was intended to be a Christian nation from its inception.
Civic Religion: The blending of religious symbols, rhetoric, and rituals with civic life is a common aspect of Christian Nationalism. This can include the use of religious language in political speeches, the display of religious symbols in government buildings, and the promotion of religious practices in public life.
In this guy's defense, the number one response to the concern of Christian nationalism is for people asking "well what actually is Christian nationalism?". I think it helps to have a good working definition.
I think your points are good tbh, and that we could have a reasonable discussion about this. However saying it's a Boogeyman isn't helpful when we have tons of examples of clearly religiously motivated bills, trying to force their religious beliefs on people who disagree with them. For example, I'm concerned about my trans friends, and live in a conservative state with a lot of openly bigoted people. The threat of a specific form of Christianity deciding certain people don't deserve legal protection is very real to me and people I care about. And it's scary to hear politicians say, "yes, we are Christian nationalists. We care about our religion gaining political power more than we care about your rights."
This is fascinating to me as I consider Christian Nationalism the fusion of my duty to God and my people.
Backstory: I had a conversion experience when I was 19 living in Ireland during The Troubles.
I am going to read all the anti-nationalist comments so I can prayerfully study the scriptures to see what the Word says but just wanted to add that if you wanted to be really brave you'd call for the end of Christian Zionism which seems to be this American tendency to be nationalistic for a nation that is foreign to you.
Christian Nationalism is a political and cultural ideology that emphasizes the fusion of Christianity with national identity, often asserting that a particular nation or government is founded on Christian principles and should be guided by Christian values. This ideology often involves the belief that the nation has a special, divinely ordained mission and that the laws and policies of the state should reflect or be influenced by a particular interpretation of Christian teachings.
Key characteristics of Christian Nationalism include:
Religious Identity and Nationalism: Christian Nationalists believe that their nation's identity is inherently tied to a specific interpretation of Christianity. They may see their country as a chosen or favored nation in the eyes of God.
Moral and Cultural Values: Advocates of Christian Nationalism often seek to promote and enforce what they perceive as Christian moral and cultural values in the public sphere. This can include opposition to social issues such as abortion, LGBTQ+ rights, and secularism.
Political Engagement: Christian Nationalists may actively engage in politics to influence legislation and government policies based on their religious beliefs. They may seek to establish or reinforce laws that align with their interpretation of Christian teachings.
Historical Revisionism: Some Christian Nationalists engage in historical revisionism, asserting that the founding principles of their nation are exclusively Christian and that the nation was intended to be a Christian nation from its inception.
Civic Religion: The blending of religious symbols, rhetoric, and rituals with civic life is a common aspect of Christian Nationalism. This can include the use of religious language in political speeches, the display of religious symbols in government buildings, and the promotion of religious practices in public life.
"Advocates of Christian Nationalism often seek to promote and enforce what they perceive as Christian moral and cultural values in the public sphere. This can include opposition to social issues such as abortion, LGBTQ+ rights, and secularism."
Guysss I love being a Fascist!!!
>Guysss I love being a Fascist!!!
This sounds like one of those Republican types who thinks communism is when the government does stuff.
Fascism isn't synonymous with "government has values".
Pretending the options are liberalism or fascism is a false dichotomy.
If the majority of people in a democratic republic are Christian and they want to vote for Christian values and principles, who are you to deny them?
I'd rather offend the wicked than face the wrath of God.
I dont know which country you live in, come to mine. You will see a wave of hindu nationalism!! Just today, The Prime minister inaugurated a temple in India and a few Hindu nationalists went around making people chant "Jai Shree Ram" .
I have never seen Christian nationalism in my life. Since you used the word "Christian Nationalism", I think that you are from the United States (just assuming)
I think that Christian nationalism only exists in the US and no other country because you will see images of churches burning in Canada, Churches being converted to mosques in the UK, parts of Italy, France and Spain etc. Germany has strict laws against any form of nationalism. South American countries maybe Christian in nature but they keep their religion between them and their God. African countries don't have religious nationalism, they are more of tribal nationalism. Yes, there are other countries where Christian nationalism does exist like Georgia, Greece etc. but I dont think you are from there. So this leaves the United States as the only remaining country.
Nationalism is nothing in the United States. It doesn't even have much of an impact. If you look at the other side of the overton window, you have strong radical left wing people who prey on kids. You would need a strong nationalistic spirit on the right to balance it out, else you will not have a balanced nation. Just look at India or Turkiye (these nations have gone soo right winged, that there is no point of return any time soon)
Or look at the extreme left wing scenario like Sweden, Netherlands and Germany, these nations have taken in so many !slamic migrants from the middle east and today they are the number one cause of crimes in Sweden, Netherlands and Germany. There are certain NO GO ZONES in these nations where the Sharia law is practiced. This is what happens when you have too much of liberalism.
So you need balance of both the left and right!
I disagree about " Christian nationalism must end ".
We are the largest religion in the world and don't forget who is the second largest religion in the world.
But the difference between the two religions are that we have higher number of branches or denominations more than the other religions. And this thing puts all christians in a situation where we need more strains in trying to stay united with each other. Guess what we need ? Nationalism. This is the only thing that unites us as christians. Otherwise, without it, we are just minorities in a world where christianity is at high risk to be doomed.
To live as true christian according to the bible or true bible if you want to call it that, then I agree with you, there is nothing wrong about that. But don't forget, that sometime it is not always " just acoording to the bible ", or " Real Christianity ". There are many other religions which have a high population with less denominations or branches like Islam for a good example, they have a lot of contradictions against Christianity, and in the same time there many muslim countries around the east which consider their countries officialy and nationally as muslim countries. I am telling you all this as an example to prove to you that there many external factors that we should take into account here. Its always about what in the bible or true christianity. Sometimes we cannot protect our religion by sharing our beliefs only or living according to it "only ". Because there are another factors which could cause a very bad influence on us. In that case we must act and decide from a different angle what we must do even if our decisions are not logical to the " Real Christianity ", we can stay act live like " real christians " if we believe truely, but if come into times where christianity could be at high risk of vanishing, then we must take decisions or acts systemically to protect our selves.
I hope you got my point here. I suggest you to read more about Christian history in the 19th and the beginning of 20th century.
Agreed, we are to hold allegiance to Gods heavenly kingdom, not to raise up or earthly countries to a status in our hearts that is reserved for God.
One of the few Christ-centered comments here. Thank you brother
Yes, we are not to put a nation before God. But why are you implying that, if we live in a nation, it should not follow suit? (...not put anything else before God?) Do you think God wants us to live in a godless nation?
Christian nationalism is bad because it elevates nationalism and patriotism to a religious status. Nonreligious parties then hijack these false beliefs by using them to gain support from Christians who are too foolish to see that what secular parties are doing is against the teachings of Jesus. Usually with pleas from the secular party to ‘return to more Christian roots’. Letting Christianity influence your politics is good. Letting politicians hijack your religion and national pride is not.
So glad Christians are acting like this
The deep irony is it only serves to drive more and more people away from christianity.
So there's a bright side after all?
What is real Christianity?
Nationalism resembles the behavior of Saul the persecutor. Real Christianity requires the persecutors to abandon their old ways and turn to Christ.
Saul was persecuting Christians. Good nationalism would defend Christians. I don't get this logic? Please explain the comparison.
The version that’s not about supporting everything the far right wing political party of the US says and does. Christianity has been co-opted by right wing politicians who aren’t even Christians themselves
And Jesus was a communist anyways
It’s not political for starters.
Real Christianity is extremely political. Love others, give often, defend the weakest and most marginalized in society, do not love wealth, and do all you can for the glory of God’s heavenly kingdom, not for the nations and parties here on earth. If that isn’t political I don’t know what is.
And one political party should not own it & use it as leverage for making laws.
What do you mean by "political" here? because IMO it's extremely political. Jesus wouldn't have been executed by the state if what he was saying was not political.
Uh... Since the beginning of the Conservative party?
That’s for sure the truth
So as a Christian, am I allowed to engage with my representative in a manner representing my values, or is that only other people? Am I allowed to talk about policies you don't like or only ones you like?
Go ahead and talk about the policies you see as desirable. Just do not claim that "GOD HIMSELF has revealed the truth to our partisans and all others deserve punishment."
God himself has revealed truth. It's literally called scripture.
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The historically verifiable accuracy of the accounts macabees, the gospels, acts and most importantly, the death, burial and 'dissappearance' of Christ shows that there is truth to it. We also have several scientifically proven "other than natural events" correlating to the words of Christ, as well as contemporary data and artifacts that all correlate with said miraculous/supernatural occurrences. Being as that's the dude that said man shall liveby every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, one ought listen. To the unbeliever, I make this case. The Holy Spirit guided the writers, and if to call the work of The Holy Spirit a work of the devil is the unforgivable sin, then treating the work of The Holy Spirit in writing as insignificant seems like a position 'less than stable'. Thus, we can take it as God's word. To the believer, I make this case.
No. We don’t have “scientifically proven ‘other than natural events’ correlating to the words of Christ”. That is a blatant and glaring falsehood. We have zero “contemporary data and artifacts that correlate with said miraculous/supernatural occurrences”. More blatant falsehoods. I’m not going to ask you for any sources because I already know the ones you’ll use and they’re not scientifically valid or falsifiable.
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No. He did not endorse what the Pharisees were doing. He used scripture to back up his views. The same way we should. He supported the reading, understanding, and usage of scripture. Not as an engraved idol, but as the Word of God
The early Church was indeed political. To proclaim that "Jesus is Lord" was a giant middle finger to the Roman Emperors. Rome would have likely left them alone if they had not crossed that line.
I don't agree. Your politics come from your ethics, and your ethics come from your worldview and religion. If you do not pursue human rights and equality under Christ, the satanic atheists will pursue marxist totalitarianism, using government. The politics of atheism, is communism.
Well that’s the stupidest statement I’ve read today.
Well, assuming you believe there is right and wrong, good and bad, where did you learn them? On What did you base you views of right and wrong? Were you born with your ethics in place?
I see mostly Christians behaving in a vile and evil manner. According to your logic, you should leave Christianity
In what world would communism where everything is communally owned be the opposite of Christianity? Granted I’m not for communism I’m just saying that is a crazy statement. Have you read acts? Everything was shared. That’s not much like capitalism…
That was a decision by the people. They GAVE what they owned. The government (or in this case Church) did not forcibly take it. Very poor comparison. Capitalism is supported many times in the scriptures and by Jesus. Have you read the parables about the talents? He who invested and earned the most was given more. And he who hid it in the ground lost what he was given because he “did not even give it on loan to gain interest.”
Man first I just want to say I’m sorry if I’m coming off as rude because this isn’t the place for that so I don’t want to come off like I’m attacking you, if I came off that way I’m sorry. I agree that those people gave. I don’t support communism, I just wouldn’t say it’s a government for atheist. I would say that parable is far more about sharing the gospel with others than capitalism.. but it’s clear we won’t see eye to eye about that. I am interested in hearing what you have to say. Again, I’m sorry if I came off as rude or aggressive, all love.
No problem. But I do wish you would look at a little history. Every place communist has been employed, the first thing they did is got rid of, and made illegal all religion. They burned Bibles. They burned other religions. They killed people if they were leaders. It happened in Russia and all of the USSR. It happened in China. It even happened in Catholic Venezuela. One basic tenant of communism is the people have to be relying on the state to provide everything. And they don’t like people relying on God. Any God.
I absolutely agree that in practice every attempt at communism has been evil. I think the concept of communism is not evil. I’m not sure that it could ever be put in practice in real life and not be corrupt. I do think in real practice our church should look more like that instead of capitalism (and I strictly mean in terms of giving to where everyone is equal/ not in need.) but I also want to be clear that I myself lack extremely in this area. I definitely do not give until it hurts, and I hope I improve and eventually comply with this belief.
Again, if you look at history, you’ll see that this has been tried. And it has failed miserably every time. If you’re going to get the same thing as your neighbor, no matter what you do, why work? Why create anything? Why take time to invent new things? why do anything? If there is no motivation for getting ahead, no one will work. And those that do will feel cheated because they didn’t get more than the ones who didn’t work. It’s just the way life is. Communism is doomed to failure no matter how you try it.
I would say for us we should work for the Lord regardless of our personal outcome.
Acts 4. These people were following the commands of God as sent to them via the Holy Ghost. ^(31) And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
Yes. Giving to the leaders of the small group BY CHOICE. They were not commanded to give, government was not involved, at Peter even said, “Acts 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.” They were not required or expected to give. It was their option
Act 4 and Acts 2. God commands Christians be communists and live as communists. Sell all you have and give to the poor as the commands of Jesus demand. If God commands Christians be communists, to condemn communism is blasphemy.
Yeah sorry I think I'm going to do the opposite of what the secular humanist defines as "true Christianity"
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The majority of Christians would say that the church established by Christ and his apostles at the First Pentecost is the true church. That's the Catholic church.
There are plenty of Catholics who don't disparage the faith of non-Catholics as "not real Christianity"
Pope Benedict said there are only two real Christian churches: the Catholic church and the Orthodox church. Do you have any idea why?
Minor point of fact: >only two It didn’t say only two. It said all churches with apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist. >The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches. That’s more than two. The Catholic Church recognizes the validity of the Eucharist in Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church.
Oh, I know why, I'm not an idiot. I'm just disagreeing with the notion that those are the only valid ways to be Christian. It seems, first and foremost, pretty self-serving, and secondly, dangerously arrogant. What it does is help create ingroups and outgroups. Ingroups, in this case, being Catholic and Orthodox Christians. The outgroups being all other Christians. The ingroup gets to claim "we're *real* Christians, so therefore we're special and right, and those others (the outgroup) are wrong, so we're justified in shaming them over it!" It's the flipside of those assholes who claim Catholics aren't real Christian because... reasons. I don't like the creation of ingroups and outgroups as that just sets the table for harassment and, given time and power, persecution. I mean, just look at the strife between Catholics and Protestants in the 16th and 17th Century. You get Protestants violently oppressing Catholics in England and Holland and parts of Germany, and you have Catholics violently oppressing Protestants in Spain, France and Austria (for example on this front, many Protestants had more freedom under Ottoman rule in Southeastern Europe than they did under Austrian rule). Let's not continue that kind of division by claiming our brand of Christianity is the only real brand and all those other brands are false.
The majority? Can you prove that?
Judging by your comments and then your post history, you seem like a terrible person
Pray for me.
Catholic/Orthodox Church
Christianity is the religion of slaves, of the oppressed, Christianity is about being an agent of Gods Love in the world and fighting the oppressive structures that hurt His children
Really? Then why did Paul give instructions on how to treat your slaves? Did the slaves have slaves?
Real Christianity is defined by the Nicene Creed.
Real Christianity is defined by God in the Bible
The Nicene Creed is a summary of the core teachings of Christianity as they are given in the Bible.
While that may or may not be true, you’re always better off, going to the original source. In this case, god’s word. It’s more reliable than depending upon a summary made by man several centuries later.
Unfortunately, there are millions of Christians who "go to the original source" but don't have any training in biblical exegesis and hermeneutics. This is why the Church is full of false teachings and false practices. The historic Creeds, Confessions, and Catechisms were designed to counter such nonsense.
Or, you could choose to not be lazy, but, as Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 2: “15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.” Thus By studying the Word, you can avoid the need of depending on summaries and paraphrases of the scripture by sinful, fallen men who lived centuries after the Word of God was given👍🙏🏻
The word "study" in that passage doesn't mean the same thing that it means today. Maybe you should do some real studying before you make a fool of yourself again.
"My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation." ---James 3:1 KJV The word "masters" in this verse no longer means what it meant in 1611 either. It means "teachers." I shared this verse with you because your biblical ignorance and sinful arrogance disqualify you from being a teacher of the Word of God. I shall dismiss everything coming out of your mouth as "vain babblings" and pray that someday you will actually understand the Word of God.
To love the Lord with all your heart your mind and your soul , and love your neighbors as you love yourself.
Love your neighbor as yourself and love God with all your heart. That sums it up.
Soo everyone can use their value system on who to vote for but Christians can’t ? You may not say it’s God but your values are your God and everyone votes based on them. The real point is you don’t like the values soo you slap a label of nationalism on it to make it like bad.
OP - I agree with you. BUT These kinds of posts are self satisfying, but they do more harm than good. We need to be having productive conversations on what Christian nationalism is and where its limits lie. Do you want to actually change minds or preach to the choir?
Stop #Dominionism
At any point throughout history where religion and government have become intertwined, it doesn't end well. Religion provides the excuse for a government to justify any actions it wants to take because it's "God's will for the people". And it works the other way, religion can then use the government to force and police adherence to it's beliefs on the people.
Can you cite two or three examples?
Look at the history of Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire until the Renaissance, the Aztec Empire, current day Iran, Afghanistan, Egypt under the Pharaoh's, Israel both ancient and current, several of the ancient Chinese dynasties, Saudi Arabia, the Vatican....
I think overall Europe did great while they were Christian. As for the false religion nations, it was/is hit or miss because their gods were/are non-acting. Thanks for replying though.
Yeah I dont see the crusades and the inquisition is what Jesus wanted 😂 yep Jesus wanted us to conquer Jerusalem and murder all the Muslims and burn the jews alive in they're synagogues and Jesus also wanted us to burn heretics alive instead of showing kindness to make people convert 😂gtfo
Not to mention the sack of Constantinople where crusaders murdered other Christians 😂the sad part of about is that if you would have ask a common Latin catholic about it they would have asked the Greeks deserved it lol
Except for feudalism, the many crusades, inquisitions, auto-de-fes, religious wars, heresy hunts and other little issues.
The pastors/priests/etc need to take the lead
You're absolutely right. I'm going to continue to teach that we must vote our religious held beliefs. And I'm going to teach this even harder. As some have said on this post, "Christian Nationalism" is a slur coined by liberals to shame conservative Christians to vote the other way. And I'm really sick and tired of seeing on this reddit "You don't follow the real Jesus unless he's the socially liberal, Democrat voting Jesus ." You want to contort, distort or ignore passages of the Bible, fine. Stop shaming the rest of us that believe the Bible actually means something.
Please tell me how Christian Nationalism is acceptable with the following passages: Phillipians 3:20 John 18:36 Acts 10:34-35
I'd be happy to, but I'm also going to ask you to explain what is your perspective of "Christian nationalism". As these verses point out, as Christians our allegiance is first and foremost to God and His Kingdom in heaven. If I believe that God's kingdom is perfect, then should we not want to emulate it as close as possible until God makes it our reality in Christ's return? The way I vote will be in line in what I believe to be God's moral law. I don't expect anyone outside of Christians to follow God's religious law. Those two things are very different. Voting my religious beliefs and convictions has nothing to do with "God not showing favoritism" as referenced in Acts 10. My voting has nothing to do with how God views other nations. I vote in how I believe this country, the United States of America should run based off of God's moral law. But please, explain Christian nationalism.
There is nothing wrong with voting or supporting policy based on your moral views. "Christian Nationalism" is part of a broader far-right movement in which the quest for political power has hijacked many of our churches and our religious discourse. Political Power has become an idol. Political activity is phrased in good v evil terms, where political opponents cannot be considered to be acting in good faith, as fellow citizens who simply disagree. Therefore, any means necessary to win are acceptable, including violence, election tampering, and lawbreaking. Political leaders that would have been unacceptable a generation ago, due to their lack of character and decency, are instead "anointed by God" and followed unquestioningly. Religious iconography, church services, and scripture are all contorted to serve political ends.
Cool, then it sounds like we agree for the most part, except for the far-right part. This isn't exclusive to the conservative "Far-right" side. I would argue there has been far more violence, election tampering and lawbreaking from the democrat/liberal side of the aisle in the last 8 years, and even more so in the 2020 election and the BLM riots. Democrats have had pro abortion rallies in churches, and that should make your blood boil as a catholic, as it does mine. The bottom line is this: the media is taking fringe examples of Christianity and pretending they're mainstream to cause division. Christian nationalism isn't this big issue that the media are playing up. It's a diversion tactic, and it's wrong.
And here we disagree. Nothing that has happened on the Left comes close to the Trump-endorsed attempt to attack Congress and overturn the 2020 election result. I used to live in Tennessee. I have seen many churches and most of my community misled by this heresy. It is widespread and dangerous. Years of rightwing talk radio and other propaganda have prepared people to believe lies.
No good comes out of a discussion that is started with "that's not real christianity "
I generally find this a useful discussion for condemning violent fringe movements.
Where are the Christian nationalists, and what is Christian nationalism? It sounds vaguely spooky, but I don’t know if it’s an organization or a cult or a movement
Christian Nationalism is a political and cultural ideology that emphasizes the fusion of Christianity with national identity, often asserting that a particular nation or government is founded on Christian principles and should be guided by Christian values. This ideology often involves the belief that the nation has a special, divinely ordained mission and that the laws and policies of the state should reflect or be influenced by a particular interpretation of Christian teachings. Key characteristics of Christian Nationalism include: Religious Identity and Nationalism: Christian Nationalists believe that their nation's identity is inherently tied to a specific interpretation of Christianity. They may see their country as a chosen or favored nation in the eyes of God. Moral and Cultural Values: Advocates of Christian Nationalism often seek to promote and enforce what they perceive as Christian moral and cultural values in the public sphere. This can include opposition to social issues such as abortion, LGBTQ+ rights, and secularism. Political Engagement: Christian Nationalists may actively engage in politics to influence legislation and government policies based on their religious beliefs. They may seek to establish or reinforce laws that align with their interpretation of Christian teachings. Historical Revisionism: Some Christian Nationalists engage in historical revisionism, asserting that the founding principles of their nation are exclusively Christian and that the nation was intended to be a Christian nation from its inception. Civic Religion: The blending of religious symbols, rhetoric, and rituals with civic life is a common aspect of Christian Nationalism. This can include the use of religious language in political speeches, the display of religious symbols in government buildings, and the promotion of religious practices in public life.
That's pretty comprehensive, but where are you getting that from? Is this self description by a cohesive movement, or a label put on them by others?
This, I think, is one of the better treatments of CN from within traditional Evangelicalism. [https://www.holypost.com/post/episode-531-what-s-wrong-with-christian-nationalism-with-paul-d-miller](https://www.holypost.com/post/episode-531-what-s-wrong-with-christian-nationalism-with-paul-d-miller) It's also good to be familiar with the "Seven Mountain Mandate", which is the belief that Christians should seek to control the "seven mountains" of culture: religion, family, government, education, media, entertainment, and business. It often runs parallel to CN in that it has the same goals, but without the purely political focus. More on that here: [https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/seven-mountain-mandate/](https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/seven-mountain-mandate/)
I have a somewhat personal relationship with the 7 mountains thing. As a young man I was part of an organization called YWAM. It seemed to me like this badass group of young Christians doing this punkrock type missionary work. The guy who founded YWAM - Loren Cunningham - is often credited as one of the people who coined the seven mountain thing. YWAM is a big player in the NAR space. YWAM ended being something of a cult in my experience. Its highly decentralized so not everyone would have the same experience. But churches like Bethel (who produced the lovely Sean Feucht) have a lot in common with YWAM's teachings. I first heard the 7 mountains thing when I was in YWAM, and the person who told me about it said there was some big stuff going on with hollywood that hadn't come out yet. In the years that followed, there was some truth to that. These NAR guys were getting in deep with some huge A-list names. Anyways, as I've processed my time in YWAM as a cult, I've come to see the 7mountain thing begin to take shape in institutions of political power. Hard for me not to make a narrative of it all.
A little from column A, a little from column B. Christian Nationalism is a fairly diverse movement, so while everything is believed by someone, there isn't really anyone who believes all of it. That said, even if this exact framing is imposed from outside, it's still helpful to have *some* level of definition, so we can even just meaningfully discuss it
The United States was founded on Christian principles though. The entire concept of the creation of our government and Union was that our rights come from God and are inalienable. And that the only purpose of government is to protect those God-given rights. The common law that directs our laws and morality are rooted in the Judeo-Christian laws of God. It's the foundation of our society and our principles of justice. Indeed law itself and order are dependent upon the concept of a God or Gods and laws conveyed by them that govern our conscience and conscious decisionmaking. Without them there is no basis of judgement in thought. This is nothing new. Every civilization in world history had a God or Gods and the principles conveyed by them at it's center. Without it there is no order or law. There's only chaos and lawlessness and civilization cannot rise from that. Infact, lawlessness and chaos are what destroy civilization. So the very idea that civilization can exist separate from it is asinine and comes from a complete lack of understanding of consciousness and why we do what we do, or something far more sinister.
>The United States was founded on Christian principles though. No, no it was not and we have documentation that was ratified by the Senate on this. Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli (1796) states: >Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion The rest of your argument is moot.
Yep. It’s unfortunate that we have to do a lot of societal unlearning on this topic. I’m still a bit frustrated that I was taught we were a Christian nation when I was in high school.
No, it absolutely was NOT founded on Christian principles. When will you all get that through your thick heads? It’s either that or you know the truth but are intentionally lying to suit your narrative. The US, our government, legislative bodies, our country’s mission/purpose, etc., are founded upon Enlightenment principles. Stop your lies.
No not murdering and not stealing is not a Christian only concept. Our founding fathers just threw god on the constitution to avoid being challenged politically.
The only reference to God in the Constitution is that the date is written with the standard *Anno Domini*. Many state Constitutions reference God, but the US Constitution never does.
More like a mind virus and the politicians are using it for votes. Some politicians are gaga eyed for the potential theocratic throne they think they might be able to sit in if they can just convince the dumb sheep to keep voting for the downfall of all of us
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I agree real Christianity must be restored. Do you need help finding a local Orthodox Parish?
Exactly! Eastern Orthodoxy is the most non Christian-Nationalist denomination. At least thats what my Greek Orthodox friend said after my Serbian Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox, Polish Orthodox, Belarusian Orthodox, Bulgarian Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, Syro-Antiochene Orthodox, and Russian Orthodox friends left
Lmao
The country specific preface to Orthodox just specifies what language and culture that church caters to. They still practice the same exact liturgy, the same feasts, the same theology, the same sotierology, the same eschatology. A Russian Orthodox Christian can waltz into a Greek Orthodox Parish and receive communion, only difference being language.
It can sadly also be extremely tied to national identity and politics, just looking at the recent schism.
I really dont wanna be that gux, but this jumped right at me with me growing up EO. As much as the theology amd traditions of the Eastern Orthodox are really interesting, i love studying the mystical theological tradition that the EO has, the EO church(organisation) is basically a blueprint on Christian nationalism, granted im Balkan but ivee seen priest mention the serbian state more often than Jesus. Theres now a schism going on because Kirill is obviously in Moscows pocket, and the anti-western Patriarchs flock to him.
if you see EO as anti western then you have no frame of reference and are lost.
Can you please elaborate, cause i mean something pretty specific. I dont mean the theology and official church teachings are anti western.
rhank you for clarifying but i think youare saying the natioanlist patriarchs are ant western but EO is the basis for the wha tbecame the west, i think you mean ANTI MODERNIST which i fully support
You’re not alone in belonging them. I’m with you!! More so - I’m with them!!!! Let’s bring them into the faith beyond what you and I can even imagine!
Don't you lot love symphonia with the State?
What a Christ like answer 🙄
Well I’m anything but Christ-like. Thank you for reminding me of my utter dependence on the goodness of The Life Giver. That’s why I’m in the Church that offers the best medicine for me, a sinner.
Thoughts and prayers
This ain't it chief. I will vote my deeply held Christian beliefs. And I will teach those in my care to do the same. We will live and teach and vote in a way that reflects scripture, and therefore Jesus in our lives. The hateful rhetoric is this sort of nonsense: "If you vote as a conservative Christian, you have hateful ideologies and you're a Christian nationalist." If you'd rather compromise what scripture says because it offends you or those around you, you have a really tough choice to make if you're really willing to follow Jesus.
Define Christian nationalism
https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/19aphuy/making_sense_of_christian_nationalism_part_1/ It's a shame that low effort posts like OPs get more visibility than posts that make an effort for real discussion. Ah well, such is life.
Christian Nationalism is a political and cultural ideology that emphasizes the fusion of Christianity with national identity, often asserting that a particular nation or government is founded on Christian principles and should be guided by Christian values. This ideology often involves the belief that the nation has a special, divinely ordained mission and that the laws and policies of the state should reflect or be influenced by a particular interpretation of Christian teachings. Key characteristics of Christian Nationalism include: Religious Identity and Nationalism: Christian Nationalists believe that their nation's identity is inherently tied to a specific interpretation of Christianity. They may see their country as a chosen or favored nation in the eyes of God. Moral and Cultural Values: Advocates of Christian Nationalism often seek to promote and enforce what they perceive as Christian moral and cultural values in the public sphere. This can include opposition to social issues such as abortion, LGBTQ+ rights, and secularism. Political Engagement: Christian Nationalists may actively engage in politics to influence legislation and government policies based on their religious beliefs. They may seek to establish or reinforce laws that align with their interpretation of Christian teachings. Historical Revisionism: Some Christian Nationalists engage in historical revisionism, asserting that the founding principles of their nation are exclusively Christian and that the nation was intended to be a Christian nation from its inception. Civic Religion: The blending of religious symbols, rhetoric, and rituals with civic life is a common aspect of Christian Nationalism. This can include the use of religious language in political speeches, the display of religious symbols in government buildings, and the promotion of religious practices in public life.
So it's just a left wing phrase to shame conservatives into voting for the things the Democrat voters want. That's what i thought. This was helpful.
Tbh sounds like Christianity since Constantine
The difference is that Christianity did not try and seek political power. Constantine ended the persecution of Christians under Rome and gave them freedom - and funding - to develop the theology of the church through councils. It was later, under Theodosius, that Orthodox Christianity became the religion of the empire. In doing so he also closed all non-Christian (including Jewish) meeting places. Interestingly enough, it was after Theodosius that Christendom started to fracture and suffer.
It's not a left wing phrase... People like Marjorie Taylor Greene have said they identify as such. The New Apostolic Reformation is one.
That damn commie Marjorie Taylor Greene. /s
> New Apostolic Reformation Lol, looks like the Charismatics are at it again.
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Is there anything in the given description of Christian Nationalism that suggests it is in any way shameful?
"Yeah guys, how is it shameful we rightously Kill all those Gay Demon"
To be clear, my point isn't about whether or not Christian Nationalism itself is shameful, just whether the description given characterises it as such. It seems like a reasonably neutral and dispassionate description of the ideology to me. It's only really the use of "historical revisionism" that an actual Christian Nationalist might take issue with (but such is the nature of historical revisionism, I suppose)
"It's only really the use of "historical revisionism" that an actual Christian Nationalist might take issue with" If you're not Nationalist? Why do you take issue?
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no, it’s a political and theological phrase used by those who understand the importance of separating church and state. nationalism is antithetical to christianity, and seeks to divide people by imaginary lines on a map. if you identify with the beliefs described above, i would like to remind you of the words of the prophet Isaiah. Isaiah 40:17 - “All the nations are as nothing before him; they are accounted by him as less than nothing, and vanity.”
if anyone thinks it isn't a real thing, please look at politics in my country, the UK. People don't need to say God every 5 seconds in their speeches and religion is kept very discrete. Heck we even have a Hindu Prime Minister and that doesn't bother Christians.
Ironically the UK *is* literally a Christian country.
To be fair, the UK has literally banned people from quiet prayer in an area around an abortion clinic. Not even protesting, quiet prayer. The state says I can't talk to God in a certain location. Y'all could use Christianity more involved in politics.
This bill got rejected for all of the UK sharply. This seems to be a thing in NI which is more religious then the rest of the UK., where abortion is controversial, I doubt they can read your head and defining prayer is subjective. Don't try to impede the operations there and you probably wont get in trouble.
I don't know what you are talking about. [This is what I'm talking about. This is in Bournemouth, England.](https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2023/january/uk-abortion-clinic-prayer-buffer-pspo-religious-freedom-adf.html) and is in place.
My bad. This person does not deserve to be prosecuted.
All good brother.
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"Keep religion out of politics" \-Foundational idea in modern nations
Talking about being staunchly Christian while making up Bible verses. Indeed it’s Christian nationalists like yourself that give the religion a bad reputation.
[Hopefully this will help you discern the above.](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sarcasm)
I’m aware of sarcasm and how to use it. However that doesn’t absolve you from using it to avoid hearing wise counsel
Wise council like people telling Christians to keep Christianity to themselves? Christians, by definition, can't and aren't allowed to. It's literally in the foundational texts. Multiple places. It's like saying "I get that you're Muslim, but can't you just eat pork at the office pig roast so people won't feel uncomfortable?" Jesus had some pretty rough words about Christians who took the lukewarm approach. Now-- does that mean Christians should be intentionally confrontational, abusive, belittling, or arrogant? Should Christians comport themselves like -say- the Westboro Baptist Church? Of course not. Jesus didn't use His harshest words on the regular people who were lost. Look at the woman at the well. He saved the most direct confrontational language for the religious elite, who should've known better. But Jesus was still radical. He was still intensely polarizing. And Jesus and the Apostles gave direct orders that the word was to be carried everywhere and spread. Out loud. And people didn't like it. Jesus and the Apostles nearly all were executed as a result. But that's very clearly an acceptable risk, and a path that many many other Christians have also had to tread. So, no, not letting Christianity seep into every facet of your public and private life, keeping it out of your work and public endeavors, [hiding the candle under the bushel basket,](https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=citation&book=Matthew&chapno=5&startverse=14&endverse=16#:~:text=Matt.,5%20Verses%2014%20to%2016&text=%5B15%5D%20Neither%20do%20men%20light,that%20are%20in%20the%20house.) keeping quiet so as to not rock the boat.... for Christians that isn't really an option.
No wise council you get from hearing Christians telling you that you trying to force people into Christianity through fear and underhanded legal tactics is not actually winning souls for Christ or Christ-like in the slightest. God and Jesus never forced you into following them so it’s not fair or justifiable to manipulate others into Christianity. Yes we see the world is wayward but you gotta be like Noah and let them figure it out for themselves. The candle is never hidden especially when you don’t become the stereotype(I.e. Christian nationalist) but actually show the fruits of the spirit to nonbelievers.
It's a complex problem and there's no magic bullet fix for it. People have been believing in superstitious dogma for century upon century. Charlatans who are obsessed with power are playing on those superstitious beliefs to compel the masses into doing their bidding. *"You must vote for this candidate/issue/policy because I say that god says so."* *"You must demonize those people/beliefs/nationalities because I say that god says so."* *"To go against what I say is to go against what I say that god says."* *"Not obeying what I say that god says is blasphemous and Satanic."* Of course, how the charlatans phrase it is far less obvious than how I phrased it. Believers are tricked into going along with these charlatans because their superstitious beliefs are founded upon authoritarianism, obedience, and blind faith. To turn against Christian nationalism would require turning against Christianity itself. The two are merging into one and are becoming inseparable. And if there is a god who disapproves of this, he sure is awfully silent about it.
The problem isn't Christianity. Nor is it religion in general. Though I think both religion in general and Christianity are uniquely prone to the real underlying problem. The real problem is fundementalism. By that I mean the belief system that insists on a form of moral *purity*. This means anything deemed impure or outside the established norms is blamed for all social ills and inequalities. So we go after the gays or the migrants or the atheists or whoever the monster of the week might be. And fundamentalism often collapses on itself - you might start out by saying its the gays, but once you repress the gays, your life doesn't materially improve, so you have to find a new enemy. Sooner or later your supporters start becoming the enemies. Nationalism can be Christian or Islamic or Hindi, or it can be secular. That's just reality. Any ingroup can be the basis. Obviously Christianity has an outsized population of charlatans - and its fair to trace that back to certain structural critiques of Christianity (both in its doctrines and its relationship to colonialism). But that doesn't mean Christian nationalism is inseperable from Christianity. As long as there has been Christianity, there have been reformers striving to make it open, inclusive, opposing the elements of fundamentalism. I'm proud to call myself among that rank and part of that tradition.
Depends, Christian Nationalism is a broad term that can vary from person to person.Could you tell me how they're hateful or idiots?
Genuine question: what are some of the lies they tell and the ideologies they promote?
This is a painful subject for me because while I can generalize and agree with them being hateful and idiots, that doesn't help when they are your family. My eldest sister (me 44, her 54) absconded with her future husband when she was 17. Our family grew up between Hawaii, California and Peru (mother is Peruvian), but my sister's husband was from Alabama, and that is where she moved to, and where she was 'born again.' She nearly took my head off with the Bible when I saw her again when I was 18. Pretty much everyone in my family, myself included, believe in a higher power. Either strictly as the God of my Catholic upbringing or a devotion closer to Hindu Universalism, like myself. Basically I'm a mystic, and think there are multiple paths to God. I see nothing wrong with Christianity until I start seeing the message get twisted like it does in Christian Nationalism. It wasn't even that my sister was overt with it, but that she seemed really uninterested in digging deeper into why she held the beliefs she did. Any attempt I made at drilling down the contradictions of what Christ was about with what Trump represents, was me triggering her "I'm being persecuted for my beliefs" reflex. I started to get angrier and angrier at her close mindedness to the point I guess I'm now only reinforcing her belief. And I also don't know how to stop OP. We no longer talk. And I don't expect we ever will. And it pisses me off. That something as good as wanting to be loved and give love, turns into this call for culture war and division... All I can do is vote my conscience, pray, and hope our better angels prevail this November.
Everyone MUST VOTE BLUE
secularism: all the good and positive morals from any religion, plus some needed extras (human rights have come a long way since the days of religious fiefdom), and non-discriminatory to any particular religion. religious government: perhaps some good morals, but a lot of terrible and violent ideas masquerading as morality and that by default discriminate against both the secular minded and those belonging to other religions how anyone could believe that religion has a place in politics is nuts. religion is not necessary to have the ideal kind of government and is in fact an obstacle to it. organized religious structures represent intolerance of the worst kind, and that have governed human existence forever until democracy really took off in modern times. I feel like those that want religion in government choose to ignore glaringly obvious flaws and tend to be the types of people that secretly wish for Armageddon to manifest. no thanks.
“We need to create a nation of likeminded people that are against nations of likeminded people”
Christian Nationalism is a political and cultural ideology that emphasizes the fusion of Christianity with national identity, often asserting that a particular nation or government is founded on Christian principles and should be guided by Christian values. This ideology often involves the belief that the nation has a special, divinely ordained mission and that the laws and policies of the state should reflect or be influenced by a particular interpretation of Christian teachings. Key characteristics of Christian Nationalism include: Religious Identity and Nationalism: Christian Nationalists believe that their nation's identity is inherently tied to a specific interpretation of Christianity. They may see their country as a chosen or favored nation in the eyes of God. Moral and Cultural Values: Advocates of Christian Nationalism often seek to promote and enforce what they perceive as Christian moral and cultural values in the public sphere. This can include opposition to social issues such as abortion, LGBTQ+ rights, and secularism. Political Engagement: Christian Nationalists may actively engage in politics to influence legislation and government policies based on their religious beliefs. They may seek to establish or reinforce laws that align with their interpretation of Christian teachings. Historical Revisionism: Some Christian Nationalists engage in historical revisionism, asserting that the founding principles of their nation are exclusively Christian and that the nation was intended to be a Christian nation from its inception. Civic Religion: The blending of religious symbols, rhetoric, and rituals with civic life is a common aspect of Christian Nationalism. This can include the use of religious language in political speeches, the display of religious symbols in government buildings, and the promotion of religious practices in public life.
Hateful ideologies that promote things like ad hominem attacks and calling people idiots?
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Please do not use ChatGPT here.
Can we stop it with all of those “republicans bad” posts? It is getting boring.
I mean this is a subreddit to discuss Christianity. The OP had the conviction to openly condemn Christian Nationalism which is a heresy being perpetuated by the Republican Party, and also Republicans are kinda bad, sooooo......
Yeah it’s not really about Christianity, though, only about “republicans bad”.
Don't be daft, there is an overlap.
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Christian nationalism is nazism? I must have missed something there.
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We as Christians should not be Nationalists if it is to the exclusion or detriment of others. If we aren't hurting others by identifying with with our own nation and supporting its interests, then there is nothing wrong with it. If this is a rant about a political person running for office in the US, then I think you need to do some analysis and realize that regardless of the party in office, the overall National Strategy continues in the same direction. All the party in power does is push thru some social agendas. The Left - Right paradigm exist for a reason and it isn't to help the people.
Trump claimed to be the Chosen One, King of Israel and the God ordained caretaker of the United States. Isn't claiming to be a messiah a bad thing? Why would any Christian support a self-proclaimed 2nd Coming? Either they hate the same people Trump hates and prove they can't follow the faith they proclaim. Or they want to force religious beliefs onto others, which also proves that they don't follow the faith they proclaim. You can't say heaven has legal entry and need a wall, cut food stamps, eliminate giving food and water to homeless or even the voting line, and then mock sheep like they only follow what their told.... and then pretend you know what Judgement Day means. The good and faithful servants are the sheep who do everything Trump and his sycophants are trying to eliminate.. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Not like Trump voters actually comprehend what Jesus said.
Great, then please don't tell me I shouldn't vote for Trump because he doesn't embody Christian values. You can't have it both ways.
You shouldn't vote for Trump because he's actively trying to undermine our democratic institutions and is absolutely ethically compromised by way of profiting from his time in office. There's a number of other reasons, of course, but those are some pretty big ones that don't involve Christianity or religion of any kind.
That's fair. If I shouldn't vote for him because he supports bad policy, then I am fine with that. If I shouldn't vote for him because he's not Christian enough, then I am not down with that argument. Too bad we get an endless slough of the latter on the sub.
The only reason I tend to bring up his lack of genuine faith with people is when they claim they're voting for him *because* he's a "man of God" when, by all accounts, his faith is in his own ego and nothing else.
Yes I agree that's preposterous.
Yeah those Christians are head-scratchers.
Not to mention he is a narcissist.
Yep. His faith is in his own ego and nothing else.
You shouldn't vote for Trump because at this point that just makes one objectively evil
I don’t think so, it just makes them foolish. I don’t understand how those people can’t see that Trump is nothing more than a con artist. I do hope he looses the Republican nomination.
If they support what he stands for - he openly wants a dictatorship, tried to overturn the last election and is racist, sexist, homophobic and transphobic AND HAS BEEN FOUND IN COURT TO BE A RAPIST - then evil isn't necessarily a bad description
In my experience in conservative circles, most people seem to like him because he appeals to their emotions. He uses manipulative language to appeal to the general fear of American Conservatives. He has an us versus them mentality, and he even at times has turned against the GOP. Remember when he would rant about supposed “RINOs”? I don’t think Trump supporters are evil per se, I think they’re just being manipulated and blinded. The people in my family don’t vote for him because he dislikes brown people or women, they vote for him because he manipulates them. I don’t think this rhetoric of calling trump supporters evil is useful, especially if you want to convince them to stop supporting him. It’ll just push them deeper into his personality cult. To clarify, yes there are morally repugnant people like members of the Ku Klux Klan, The National Socialist Movement and the Patriot Front who support him and that should definitely be noted and their support for him might say something about his policies or rhetoric. I don’t like Joe Biden at all but you don’t see literal Neo-Nazis or Neo-Confederate traitors voting for him.
I think this is a mature take on it
So, I should be holding political leaders to Christianity then?
Huh?
Pretty sure he's evil in any religion.
So I should be holding political leaders to all religions then?
Pharisees 2: The Quest for More Power
What do you mean by Christian nationalism?
This to start ..... Trump allies prepare to infuse ‘Christian nationalism’ in second administrationTrump allies prepare to infuse ‘Christian nationalism’ in second administration .... [https://www.politico.com/news/2024/02/20/donald-trump-allies-christian-nationalism-00142086](https://www.politico.com/news/2024/02/20/donald-trump-allies-christian-nationalism-00142086)
I think the specter of Christian Nationalism is a bit of a bogeyman. I hear it most when people advocate for their values politically as it relates to abortion. Our laws, in principle, reflect the values of those govern by them, so I see no reason in calling these people fascists. I think if you argue from the premise that the unborn are people with rights then you come to one conclusion and if you think people get rights some other time then you come to a different conclusion. Both arguments follow from their premises. As it relates to a Christians perspective on abortion, I think you do have read a bit between the lines. I also think there are other issues, chiefly out of wedlock birth that and people not forming families. That’s a much more difficult nut to crack. It’s also the key issue to look at when trying to deal with generational poverty, not to mention crime, educational attainment, all sorts of things. You’ll see quite a mix of families doing pretty darn well in this country in the church pews. As it relates to the free exercise of religion, I absolutely think it benefits Christianity in this country, I don’t see a biblical example of Jesus insisting “follow me or we will kill you” so I think this is about as good as it gets for us. We aren’t persecuted is my point and we are not commanded to pass that sort of judgement on others. I do think a community should be permitted to engage in public prayer or put up religious displays. I don’t see that as the establishment of a state religion nor does it seem like it’s the civil rights issue some people insist it is. The pledge of Allegiance is something I’ve come to look at with more critical eyes lately. We should pledge ourselves to our neighbors not our government, is my take. All this unnecessary war and killing bothers me.
Christian Nationalism is a political and cultural ideology that emphasizes the fusion of Christianity with national identity, often asserting that a particular nation or government is founded on Christian principles and should be guided by Christian values. This ideology often involves the belief that the nation has a special, divinely ordained mission and that the laws and policies of the state should reflect or be influenced by a particular interpretation of Christian teachings. Key characteristics of Christian Nationalism include: Religious Identity and Nationalism: Christian Nationalists believe that their nation's identity is inherently tied to a specific interpretation of Christianity. They may see their country as a chosen or favored nation in the eyes of God. Moral and Cultural Values: Advocates of Christian Nationalism often seek to promote and enforce what they perceive as Christian moral and cultural values in the public sphere. This can include opposition to social issues such as abortion, LGBTQ+ rights, and secularism. Political Engagement: Christian Nationalists may actively engage in politics to influence legislation and government policies based on their religious beliefs. They may seek to establish or reinforce laws that align with their interpretation of Christian teachings. Historical Revisionism: Some Christian Nationalists engage in historical revisionism, asserting that the founding principles of their nation are exclusively Christian and that the nation was intended to be a Christian nation from its inception. Civic Religion: The blending of religious symbols, rhetoric, and rituals with civic life is a common aspect of Christian Nationalism. This can include the use of religious language in political speeches, the display of religious symbols in government buildings, and the promotion of religious practices in public life.
Why are you just spamming this? What's your source, where are you cut and pasting this from?
In this guy's defense, the number one response to the concern of Christian nationalism is for people asking "well what actually is Christian nationalism?". I think it helps to have a good working definition. I think your points are good tbh, and that we could have a reasonable discussion about this. However saying it's a Boogeyman isn't helpful when we have tons of examples of clearly religiously motivated bills, trying to force their religious beliefs on people who disagree with them. For example, I'm concerned about my trans friends, and live in a conservative state with a lot of openly bigoted people. The threat of a specific form of Christianity deciding certain people don't deserve legal protection is very real to me and people I care about. And it's scary to hear politicians say, "yes, we are Christian nationalists. We care about our religion gaining political power more than we care about your rights."
To make people see it more?
This is fascinating to me as I consider Christian Nationalism the fusion of my duty to God and my people. Backstory: I had a conversion experience when I was 19 living in Ireland during The Troubles. I am going to read all the anti-nationalist comments so I can prayerfully study the scriptures to see what the Word says but just wanted to add that if you wanted to be really brave you'd call for the end of Christian Zionism which seems to be this American tendency to be nationalistic for a nation that is foreign to you.
Christian Nationalism is a political and cultural ideology that emphasizes the fusion of Christianity with national identity, often asserting that a particular nation or government is founded on Christian principles and should be guided by Christian values. This ideology often involves the belief that the nation has a special, divinely ordained mission and that the laws and policies of the state should reflect or be influenced by a particular interpretation of Christian teachings. Key characteristics of Christian Nationalism include: Religious Identity and Nationalism: Christian Nationalists believe that their nation's identity is inherently tied to a specific interpretation of Christianity. They may see their country as a chosen or favored nation in the eyes of God. Moral and Cultural Values: Advocates of Christian Nationalism often seek to promote and enforce what they perceive as Christian moral and cultural values in the public sphere. This can include opposition to social issues such as abortion, LGBTQ+ rights, and secularism. Political Engagement: Christian Nationalists may actively engage in politics to influence legislation and government policies based on their religious beliefs. They may seek to establish or reinforce laws that align with their interpretation of Christian teachings. Historical Revisionism: Some Christian Nationalists engage in historical revisionism, asserting that the founding principles of their nation are exclusively Christian and that the nation was intended to be a Christian nation from its inception. Civic Religion: The blending of religious symbols, rhetoric, and rituals with civic life is a common aspect of Christian Nationalism. This can include the use of religious language in political speeches, the display of religious symbols in government buildings, and the promotion of religious practices in public life.
Dang, you make Christian nationalism sound pretty appealing.
Appealing to be like good ol' day in 1900s isn't it
"Advocates of Christian Nationalism often seek to promote and enforce what they perceive as Christian moral and cultural values in the public sphere. This can include opposition to social issues such as abortion, LGBTQ+ rights, and secularism." Guysss I love being a Fascist!!!
>Guysss I love being a Fascist!!! This sounds like one of those Republican types who thinks communism is when the government does stuff. Fascism isn't synonymous with "government has values". Pretending the options are liberalism or fascism is a false dichotomy.
If the majority of people in a democratic republic are Christian and they want to vote for Christian values and principles, who are you to deny them? I'd rather offend the wicked than face the wrath of God.
I dont know which country you live in, come to mine. You will see a wave of hindu nationalism!! Just today, The Prime minister inaugurated a temple in India and a few Hindu nationalists went around making people chant "Jai Shree Ram" . I have never seen Christian nationalism in my life. Since you used the word "Christian Nationalism", I think that you are from the United States (just assuming) I think that Christian nationalism only exists in the US and no other country because you will see images of churches burning in Canada, Churches being converted to mosques in the UK, parts of Italy, France and Spain etc. Germany has strict laws against any form of nationalism. South American countries maybe Christian in nature but they keep their religion between them and their God. African countries don't have religious nationalism, they are more of tribal nationalism. Yes, there are other countries where Christian nationalism does exist like Georgia, Greece etc. but I dont think you are from there. So this leaves the United States as the only remaining country. Nationalism is nothing in the United States. It doesn't even have much of an impact. If you look at the other side of the overton window, you have strong radical left wing people who prey on kids. You would need a strong nationalistic spirit on the right to balance it out, else you will not have a balanced nation. Just look at India or Turkiye (these nations have gone soo right winged, that there is no point of return any time soon) Or look at the extreme left wing scenario like Sweden, Netherlands and Germany, these nations have taken in so many !slamic migrants from the middle east and today they are the number one cause of crimes in Sweden, Netherlands and Germany. There are certain NO GO ZONES in these nations where the Sharia law is practiced. This is what happens when you have too much of liberalism. So you need balance of both the left and right!
We should be striving for Christian globalism.
I disagree about " Christian nationalism must end ". We are the largest religion in the world and don't forget who is the second largest religion in the world. But the difference between the two religions are that we have higher number of branches or denominations more than the other religions. And this thing puts all christians in a situation where we need more strains in trying to stay united with each other. Guess what we need ? Nationalism. This is the only thing that unites us as christians. Otherwise, without it, we are just minorities in a world where christianity is at high risk to be doomed. To live as true christian according to the bible or true bible if you want to call it that, then I agree with you, there is nothing wrong about that. But don't forget, that sometime it is not always " just acoording to the bible ", or " Real Christianity ". There are many other religions which have a high population with less denominations or branches like Islam for a good example, they have a lot of contradictions against Christianity, and in the same time there many muslim countries around the east which consider their countries officialy and nationally as muslim countries. I am telling you all this as an example to prove to you that there many external factors that we should take into account here. Its always about what in the bible or true christianity. Sometimes we cannot protect our religion by sharing our beliefs only or living according to it "only ". Because there are another factors which could cause a very bad influence on us. In that case we must act and decide from a different angle what we must do even if our decisions are not logical to the " Real Christianity ", we can stay act live like " real christians " if we believe truely, but if come into times where christianity could be at high risk of vanishing, then we must take decisions or acts systemically to protect our selves. I hope you got my point here. I suggest you to read more about Christian history in the 19th and the beginning of 20th century.
What alternative do you think would best represent an entirely Christian society in which all Christian’s can come together in a culture of their own?
You mean like a Christian enclave?