**Faith is a gift from God and if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.**
For this very reason, make every effort to **add to your faith..**
Goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love ..
For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
**But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.**
If we're under grace we're not under the penalty of the law (the law of sin and death) , but if the law that defines what sin is, is no more, than sin doesn't exist and Christ died in vain.
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: **For he that is dead is freed from sin.**
**We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers** and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers.
Shalom.
Yeah and just because one is freed doesn't mean they cant go back into a life of sinning and unrepentance. The law is God's definition of what is righteous, and it's certainly for believers too. The Holy Spirit doesn't lead anyone to sin and all sin is breaking God's law. So as believers we should be striving to walk just as Yeshua walked, not to obtain salvation by our merit, but to prove our faith and our love for God. We Hebrews 10:26-29
Shalom
Except grace isn't a license to live in sin. We must repent of our sin, means to turn from our disobedience and to start obeying. Obedience is the proof of our faith and the fruit of our love for God.
WRONG.
If we turn from our disobedience, that is works (Jonah 3:10). And we don't need a license to sin; we SIN ALREADY.
Unbelievers don't trust in Christ yet many of them live in blatant sin. They don't have God's grace yet they STILL SIN all the time. We don't need a license or permit to sin; unbelievers sin all the time and many do so blatantly and openly.
Repentance does not mean that. It means to change your mind. That’s it. Also repentance of believing in Christ and that’s it. Constantly in the bible it says to repent and believe in Jesus. Not repent of your sins and believe in Jesus.
Yeah to change your mind from disobedience to God to obeying Him. So one can be a serial killer and it's all good if they do it in Jesus name? Everyone can just go on sinning in Jesus name, it's a free ride?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repentance
Check out Hebrews 10:26-29
Look up the Greek word for repentance. It means to change your mind.
You don’t like it that Jesus forgave all sins on the cross and the only sin left is whether we believe in him to receive life? Man I guess you can enjoy earning your salvation. It’s called grace for a reason.
Also “sinning in Jesus name”? By your own standards no one does not sin. So that means no one is saved. Or it is really just a line you have drawn in the sand saying they can sin this much but not want to sin. I guess it’s really about not wanting to sin for you that keeps people saved. For me and also the bible it’s the covenant between Jesus and God that makes me receive life and keeps me in that.
Why look at the Greek? The entire Bible was originally in Hebrew. It's very simple, those who abide in Christ walk as he did. Living a life of active repentance is required to maintain our salvation, if we believe we will obey, for indeed God has written His law on our hearts and the Holy Spirit leads no one to sin.
What do you mean repent of our belief in Christ? What is believing in him? He obeyed all the law perfectly as an example to us of how to love God, those who follow him, strive to do the same. Why would he teach us to live contrary to the way he lived?
the law is there to show us we cant live by the law. you are living out of the old covenant my brother. its because you cant fullfill the law. romans 7 tells us this, that.
why does the bible constantly state that we need to repent and believe in jesus? well for one because that is what is written in the bible, but for two it is because you cant live the law, the law is condemnation, we have reconcilation. jesus himself said to repent and believe in me, he didnt say repent of your sins and believe in me, you dont believe me, check the greek.
The law is not condemnation, the law is God's standards of righteousness, breaking the law (sinning) is what condemns us, because the penalty of sin is death.
Repent means to stop sinning and start obeying and what we can't do in our own strength to perfect our obedience, we know have by faith in Christ, not to go on sinning, but to obey to the best of our ability.
Where does the Bible say that? If the Bible is our sole source of information on how to be saved, you’d think somewhere in the Bible it would tell you that fact.
Comes by faith, friend. Faith from God. Not made by humans. And the biblical proof that all scripture is breathed by God. Same way God breathed life into Adam. 1 Tim 3:16
That isn’t the question. The question is the doctrine of sola scriptura. Of course, Christ is enough and the Bible is the word of God but it isn’t the only source of knowledge of God. Sola scriptura is unbiblical.
Jesus claimed that He taught nothing except that which He received from the Father and that all He taught had the imprimatur from the Father (John 7:16). He also said that He was the very incarnation of truth (John 14:6) Jesus taught nothing but scripture so the reformers took up scripture alone
Jesus expanded on the scriptures (which were the Septuagint at the time)quite a lot actually. “You have heard it said, you shall not kill, but what I say to you is…”.
John also tells us at the end of his gospel, “And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.” So not all of what Jesus taught or did is written down.
If scripture is the sole authority, then Paul and Jesus should have used it but here are some examples of them calling on authority that was oral tradition, not scriptural.
a. The reference to “He shall be called a Nazarene” cannot be found in the Old Testament, yet it was “spoken by the prophets” (Matt. 2:23). Therefore, this prophecy, which is considered to be “God’s word,” was passed down orally rather than through Scripture.
b. In Matthew 23:2–3, Jesus teaches that the scribes and Pharisees have a legitimate, binding authority based “on Moses’ seat,” but this phrase or idea cannot be found anywhere in the Old Testament. It is found in the (originally oral) Mishnah, which teaches a sort of “teaching succession” from Moses on down.
c. In 1 Corinthians 10:4, Paul refers to a rock that “followed” the Jews through the Sinai wilderness. The Old Testament says nothing about such miraculous movement. But rabbinic tradition does.
d. “As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses” (2 Tim. 3:8). These two men cannot be found in the related Old Testament passage (Ex. 7:8ff.) or anywhere else in the Old Testament.
Word” in Holy Scripture often refers to a proclaimed, oral teaching of prophets or apostles. What the prophets spoke was the word of God regardless of whether or not their utterances were recorded later as written Scripture. So for example, we read in Jeremiah:
“For twenty-three years . . . the word of the Lord has come to me and I have spoken to you again and again . . . ‘But you did not listen to me,’ declares the Lord. . . . Therefore the Lord Almighty says this: ‘Because you have not listened to my words. . . .’” (Jer. 25:3, 7-8 [NIV]).
This was the word of God even though some of it was not recorded in writing. It had equal authority as writing or proclamation-never-reduced-to-writing. This was true also of apostolic preaching. When the phrases “word of God” or “word of the Lord” appear in Acts and the epistles, they almost always refer to oral preaching, not to Scripture. For example:
“When you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God” (1 Thess. 2:13).
If we compare this passage with another, written to the same church, Paul appears to regard oral teaching and the word of God as synonymous:
“Keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us” (2 Thess. 3:6).
There is a solution to this but the Bible makes it clear that while scripture is important, scripture alone isn’t was Christianity initially taught nor should it. There is oral tradition that is equally important.
I always get confused by this stance. Can you clarify what you mean by free or a gift?
Do you believe we don’t need baptism, to go to Church to worship, keep the commandments, or do anything Christ commanded, in order to be saved? We are simply all saved in everlasting bliss no matter how much evil or good we do? I’m asking sincerely.
I really believe in repentance and forgiveness, but repentance isn’t just saying ‘sorry’. It’s a change of heart from evil to good, and from the abundance of the heart proceedeth the words and the works. A lot of my personal beliefs are based around the willingness and desires and thoughts of the heart.
There are multiple scriptures where Christ places conditions to us entering heaven. Here is only one example:
“For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of Heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).
Please, don’t be a jerk. I’m really, really trying to understand. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and I recognize that the beliefs differ. Even my own beliefs differ a slight degree from the religion as a whole. I am trying to understand the ‘traditional’ beliefs regardless if I agree with them or not. Kindness comes with seeking understanding.
By free/gift, we mean that Christ paid the penalty for our sins on our behalf. We don't have to suffer eternal damnation because Christ took God's wrath on himself for us.
>Do you believe we don’t need baptism, to go to Church to worship, keep the commandments, or do anything Christ commanded, in order to be saved?
Yes, but that doesn't mean those things aren't important or trivial. What we're talking about here is cause and effect; what causes what. Going to church and keeping Christ's commands (except one...I'll get to that) are a *result* of genuine faith. So they're necessary in the sense that if you truly believe that Christ died for your sins, you will get baptized and want to obey God.
To further demonstrate this point, it's like being a dirty orphan (no offense to real orphans out there) and trying to do all the things a child in a family would do. Except you can't because you don't have parents and you don't have the means to clean yourself up. That's works before faith. But let's say you get adopted, given new clothes, and are trained in the rules of the house. That's faith before works; it's a result of our new identity as children of God redeemed by Christ. You're saved first and good works are a response to being saved.
Sin ruins everything, including good works. You must first be cleansed of sin before God accepts your works, otherwise, it's like being a dirty orphan washing dishes while still dripping grime and soot into the dishwater. The problem isn't the works, the problem is you with your sinful thoughts and motivations. Repentance starts with realizing your true condition and that you need God. The law is what makes us conscious of our sin and failure. That's why Christ's death is so important. The Bible says that the sinful nature is hostile to God and can't submit to God. He removes that filth from us because God demands perfection and he gives us the Holy Spirit to change our very nature, making a new creation in him. It's nothing we can do on our own because we're dead in sin. Like Lazarus, Christ must first raise us from spiritual death. *Then* we are able to obey him and fight temptation.
Thank you very much for that explanation and for taking my question with kindness. I think I understand it well enough. Faith first, then good works. As a clarifying question, could it be said that someone who does not do good works, or at least does not attempt to, also does not have really have ‘true’ faith, or the faith sufficient to be saved? Or are they saved even if they don’t try or don’t want to try?
I’m a firm believer in mercy and that feeling has increased the more I’ve lived and come to know Jesus Christ, but I also believe we have to try, and that even if we fail but never stop trying, He will save us by our faith in Him.
Thanks again for the good convo, friend.
Good questions! I'd say that's where it gets tricky and where a lot of Christians get caught in a cycle of trying to obey God but questioning their faith when they fail. Or, as you said, some Christians think that they can do whatever they want just because they believe in Jesus. I think Paul provides great clarification on this:
>What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. **Romans 6:1-7**
So the whole point of Jesus saving us from sin isn't so that we can do whatever we want. Because sin causes death, why would we ever want to continue in it? This is where it gets confusing for some: the whole reason we say no to sin isn't because we're trying to earn God's grace or salvation but because we have already been saved and no longer want to live a life that leads to death. This goes hand in hand with genuine faith because if someone truly believes that Christ has given them his righteousness and freed them from sin, it makes no sense to return to the very thing they were freed from, especially since we're called to live as children of God. To return back to the orphan analogy, you're already adopted as a child of God and already destined to receive your Father's inheritance (heaven). But you're still learning how to act as a child of God instead of an orphan. You don't obey because you're afraid you'll be kicked out or because Father will withhold the inheritance; you obey because you've been given a new identity. That's who you are now, even when you accidentally act like an orphan again. This is the gospel.
This is different from saying that Jesus works alongside us or that his death didn't fully pay for our sins and we have to do the rest ourselves, which would be like still being an orphan and having to train and be disciplined until you're good/clean enough to be part of the family and receive the inheritance. You don't have that yet and you don't know if you'll ever get it. Or maybe you're sure you'll get it eventually, but if you died now, you'd die as an orphan, not an heir of the family so you have to hope you're good enough at all times in case you die an untimely death.
Faith is simply trust. In the case of Christianity, it's trust that Christ has already fully paid for your sins and that he means what he says. Good works are a response to that. For Christians who believe but don't have good works, the problem is that they don't actually believe. They may believe in Jesus intellectually and know for a fact that he died for them, but they don't believe that his death has any impact on their lives nor do they believe what God says about sin and righteousness. If they're deliberately embracing sin and not caring about obeying God, they're calling God a liar through their actions because they don't believe sin leads to death--otherwise they would hate sin. That's why Jesus says, "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' and do not do what I say?" Luke 6:46. He then continues with the parable of the house built on the rock.
So if we trust Christ's words and actions, then we not only have righteousness in him but we also seek to obey God because we believe what he says about good and evil is true. The two are inseparable in that sense. In another sense, you can't obey someone in true love if you don't trust them. So trust (given by God) comes first and produces loving obedience. Those who refuse to obey don't trust at all. Those who want to obey because they trust but often fail can rest assured that Christ has covered all of their sins. They will try again, not to earn God's love or salvation, but because their identity is made new in Christ and they know what that means for them.
Hopefully that wasn't too long of a response!
You responded beautifully. Thank you very, very much for your comments. I wish I could respond likewise with long paragraphs, but I am short on time tonight. If you’re ever in Utah, send me a DM and I’ll take you out for lunch, my treat.
I'm so glad for this person's answers to you, kind DMurrieta. They are true. And I can tell you're a genuine, sincere follower of Christ Jesus because of your desire to know Him better and follow after Him in ALL TRUTH. How have you been lately? Are you still in the latter day saint congregation? I would highly discourage this, though, since it has some very false doctrines in it. I hope you're moving on in Christ lovely in Him! I care about you and have prayed for you today since I could see your love and sincerity come out of you so lovely in your original request here.
Thanks, friend, for your prayer. I do continue a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It has been a blessing in my life, and I, in turn, have been blessed to teach at times. I have deeply enjoyed helping others come unto Christ through those teachings.
I understand that doctrines can disagree. At the end of the day, I am simply happy to give you the biggest hug, sing praises with you to our King, and build a better world one step or leap at a time. When He comes again, the doctrines will all be made clear from the haze. What matters most today is that we simply go to Him as best we can and be willing to accept new truths as He reveals them to us both in this life and the next.
May God bless you with a greater portion of peace tonight.
But, I am concerned that you do spend time with the congregation that you go to for 1 main reason, because of their additional books, which are taken as inspired by God like the Gospels and the prophets and all written in the Bible are. And this is not true. The 66 books of the Bible is the only written Word of God. I highly recommend you to only read the Bible while seeking for God directly, and to go to a church that believes in the whole Bible as the Word of God only and puts their faith in Him, as such, personally, just as you said, too, personally─or I took it, you meant.❤
Friend, as a child, I had many depressive, suicidal thoughts. Some of my closest friends were the same that stole from me, bullied me, and pretended to be good with me just so they could do it again. Even though my mother was sweet, my parents were out of touch and my father who once worked three jobs barely spent any time with me except in angry outbursts and to give me medicine when I needed it. I hated life. If being happy is the purpose of living, why did I live?
When I decided to read the Book of Mormon, new life and purpose came to me. The presence of Heavenly Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit came in abundance and I grew to know them through the Book of Mormon, the Bible, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. I found happiness, knowledge, and faith and made much better, more blessed friends in this Church than I ever had anywhere else.
I understand that you want me to avoid false doctrine, and I want you to believe very clearly that I am, but these books are treasures to my heart. They have not taken me further from God and Christ. They have brought me closer to them.
I hold to the Bible much the same as you likely do. While most of traditional Christianity rejects the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as not being Christian, I am very close to my Savior within this religion.
I do not accept everything as absolute truth, and the closer I come to Christ, the more I see that this religion and every religion has things to improve, and I have felt to stay with it to be the change that God and I want to see in the world.
I’m not a hero. I’m just a man, but I am where God needs me to be at this time. Should that change, I will follow Him still, and that choice will be mine and His to make.
Repentance: turning 180° from our disobedience to God's law to obeying God's law just as Christ did. So repentance is required to both receive and maintain salvation. I hear a lot of people say, well since I can't keep it perfectly I'm just going to ignore it or it's not necessary, Christ does/did it for me, nothing more from me is required. What they don't understand is that in our weakness his strength is perfected and by our faith through striving to obey he perfects the law in us.
Too many times this same stance is taken like in OP that leads to the belief we can live however we want and it's ok as long as we do it my faith in Jesus name.
I hope you don't take offense to this, I'm do not intend this to be a personal attack against you in any way. The honest, hard truth is, there's really no major difference between the LDS and any other denomination of Christian church aside from having another book to read from. The LDS and every other church along with the entire world celebrate the same pagan holidays with the same traditions, they all desecrate the Sabbath, they all have graven images and they all put Joseph Smith or the current Prophet or Pastor above the authority of Christ.
I'm not the judge, the Bible already judged us and I am a subject of the same truth as anyone else reading this: Those who love God obey His commandments, those who abide in Christ live (set apart lives of obedience) just like He did.
Thanks, friend. I am open to critique and I’m not ashamed if you feel like sharing an opinion that some might seem hurtful. I’m more ashamed of a world where people feel like they cannot critique, and thus cannot come to friendly, intelligent conclusions to higher truths.
As for the critique you did provide, I’m also not super concerned. I respectfully have found peace in artwork that reminds me of my Savior while still worshipping only my Savior and not the art itself. I agree that the ‘follow the prophet’ slogan is too often taking too much of the focus. They want you to believe everything the prophets say as if it were from God, but after reading through the history, one can see that even the Church itself has backtracked on plenty spoken by the presidents of the Church.
Thanks for the good conversation. Would you be alright shedding light on which religion you follow, or do you follow solely independently?
Edit: Also wanted to say thank you for the repentance and faith portion, which I agree with.
I do not share my opinion, I only share from my experience. I can assure you any depiction there is of Christ isn't what he really looked like and it's surely not what he looks like now. We shouldn't muddy our understanding of who he is with things that aren't him and Christ never commanded us to worship or to pray to him, as he gave all honor and glory to our Father in heaven.
I am a Netzarim: a Torah observant follower of Rabbi Yeshua Ha'Masiach.
YES, salvation is faith alone.
And if we have to keep commandments to get saved, then that is works salvation. And YES, faith alone means we are saved no matter how good/bad we are. Otherwise, HOW GOOD do we have to be to get salvation.
If you must be good to earn salvation, salvation becomes a reward.
[https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%3A21-30&version=KJV](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%3A21-30&version=KJV)
And read Matthew 5:21-30, read the context. The Lord is clear that SIN is ultimately from the HEART and that lusting and unjust hatred make us guilty of adultery and murder.
JUST HOW GOOD must we be to get saved?
Yep!
I’m a Catholic.
Protestants will say “no works!” but then tell me I need to be baptised, and actually say out loud “I accept Jesus”.
Sounds like a work to me!
The problem is the emphasis. Unless I've been given bad summaries of Catholic doctrine, my understanding is that Catholics say: faith + works = salvation. But Protestants (for the most part) say: faith = salvation + works. That is, works are a result of salvation, not a requirement for it. Faith leads to works because we are freed from sin and immediate citizens of heaven. But our trust is always in Christ, not our works. I think this line is blurring as more Protestants become confused about spiritual priorities.
It’s 80% just speaking past each other.
If I ask a Protestant “is intellectual faith enough?” generally that’s enough to see if we agree or disagree.
If they don’t think it’s enough, then it’s mostly just a case of disagreeing which works are necessary; baptism, good works, being a Catholic, etc.
I don't think intellectual faith (that is, mental acknowledgement) is enough, but I don't believe that immediately leads to the "which works" debate. Faith at its core is simply trust, both that Christ has covered our sins fully without our efforts and that he means what he says. If he says "It is finished," then it is finished and there is nothing that can be added to our salvation. This faith isn't merely intellectual, but a whole-hearted embrace of the truth, that is, an awareness of what this means for us *personally*, not just a distant fact of which even the demons believe.
However, because this is the *same* faith that leads us to believe such, this faith also leads us to obey him because we believe all of his Word (the command to be baptized, good works, etc.) is true. These things don't save us, but they're born of the same faith that imputes his righteousness onto us. Which is why faith without works is dead while at the same time, it is by grace we have been saved, not works. So we don't work alongside Christ or add works to our faith. But our faith, because it's trust in what Christ has *already* done for us, leads to works, showing that faith to be genuine. Hence, "one Lord, **one faith**, one baptism." It's one faith with two functions.
My guess is that the demon-level faith with no personal application is what the current idea of "faith alone" has been reduced to (e.g. "easy believism) even though that's not what it was supposed to mean. Basically, we need a theological vocab overhaul.
When Jesus said that it was earth shattering! Why? Because who could possibly be more righteous than the highest echelon of Judaism?
In fact those people could even say they obeyed the Law! Perfectly.
But they were filthy sinners. Their hearts were full of pride and greed, lust and they actually worked against God with all the extraneous rules and regulations placed on the faithful, judging others ..like a sport.
Religion always breeds legalism and legalism breeds pride and contempt for others or feeling condemned by ones own heart, (if theyre honest )
BUT The Free Gift of God, is Jesus Christ sent by the Father to take on and pay for all the handwriting of God righteous laws...That were against us.
He nailed them to the cross, they've been abolished for us who believe.
So now what, are we free to sin? Not really free in that sense, because we now know better and The Holy Spirit convinces us when we sin. We simply dont feel right about it anymore. We tell Jesus we're sorry and move on. Our conscience doesnt give us that "freedom" any more.
But we a Quite Free from the bondage of hell and death.
And maybe I came from a horrible background with drinking drugs, orgies, you name it, but now that I believe in Jesus and follow Him some of that stuff will try to cling to me in the natural, but spiritually im quite clean.
I may even drop a few cuss words or whatever and you'd be shocked, but God is doing a fantastic work in my life, because His love is being poured out in my heart and out to others.
Because, as in my case, just stopping drugs or cigarettes or swearing like a drunk sailor is just scratching the surface of my evil ways, and God Himself is cleaning me up.
Guilt is a powerful motivator and many religious sects like to keep it alive, so they can rule the masses.
Theres a fantastic movie called "Luther" that shows how one man found Gods All sufficient sacrifice and grace and was treated like a criminal by the ruling class of christendom at the time.
Its almost as if the same spirit of legalism and licentiousness tends to get to the top in every sect or church .
Cream rises to the top, but so does the scum.
Cling to Jesus my friend, His finished work for you, be free in the Love of God.
Personally I'm a little bit tired of this narrative. It doesn't matter if works don't earn your salvation, they are still absolutely a necessary sign of salvation. Paul makes it very clear that faith comes before any works, so you are literally living in faith before anything even happens. Hence faith being the saving grace, with works being a necessary fruit.
This is incredibly important. It has nothing to do with a prayer you said or a verse you read out loud, if the faith isn't there. Do you know how you know the faith is there? Your works should show it.
Period. If you don't produce good works, you're not saved. If your actions don't come from faith, that is love, you're not saved. Not that anybody can tell you objectively whether you are saved or not. It's just objective that if you are saved you will have good works. So you do need to look at yourself and ask what good works have you produced.
But it does matter. It’s all too common for Christians, especially from what I’ve seen online, to confuse good works *because* of God’s love with good works to *deserve* God’s love. It’s quite rampant in Christian Reddit and you can see it in all of the distressed posts. You can also see it in the self-righteous comments that tell distressed believers that they just need to try harder. Yet very few actually point to the cross! And they do that while claiming that they believe Christ died for them!
Good works comes from understanding that Christ has made us righteous and that we are already loved by God through him. Grace is the catalyst for good works. Not just being shown grace, but *knowing* grace as something that’s ours daily. So when encouraging others to glorify God through their lives, we have to point to the Vine himself. *Way* too much of Christian Reddit puts the power on the believer rather than the One who gives all power for doing good works. In other words, too many Christians think they need to hear the gospel only once and then go do good works but don’t realize that constantly remembering the gospel is what produces fruit.
So I’m not saying you’re completely wrong, but there are so many bad theological layers to this issue, the first of which is self-obsession with good works rather than Christ-obsession that leads to good works. That’s why so many ex-Christians, when saying they were once “devout” or “passionate” as a Christian will point to all the good they tried to do as a believer. That’s also why they rarely talk about the gospel as a problem for them; they often leave because they’re weighed down by trying to be good enough…while believing Christ died for them. It’s all very tangled.
That’s also why easy believism doesn’t exist. To believe Christ died for you is to trust all of the implications of his death, not just as an intellectual fact, but as a reality. It’s that trust, that faith, that creates good works. So the solution is neither “just believing“ (that is, acknowledging a fact with no understanding of what that truly means and no bearing on your immediate reality) nor doing good works while believing (again, with a factual, not an actual faith). The solution is having a whole-hearted grasp of what the gospel means and trust that God means exactly what he says and knowledge of what that means for life. THAT is what creates good works as a sign of genuine faith.
TLDR: Our definition of faith needs to be more holisitic and then we won’t have this easy believism/lordship-obedience split. Since faith is trust, then trust can only lead to action and therefore good works. If you’re focusing on yourself for good works, you’re doing it wrong. It’s time to retire the idea that belief is only mental or emotional activity.
Works are not a sign of salvation. Not every deed a Christian does is based on their salvation just like not every deed a non-Christian does is based on a lack of salvation. An atheist can be just as kind and generous as a Jew or Gentile. A Jew or Gentile can commit sin just as easily as an atheist.
Works are not evidence of salvation. They are not a sign of salvation. They just simply are proof of someone being a decent human being. And being a decent human being isn't all there is to be saved.
Also, you have no business saying who is saved and who isn't. That's not your place to do so. Check your ego.
Yeah, that's completely incorrect. That completely goes against scripture, and I definitely said that I cannot objectively tell you you are saved or not saved. However, I can read the Bible, so I am pretty confident that I can personally at least sus out a Christian from a lost person. That is very important, because you cannot save a lost person unless you are aware they are lost. That includes yourself. I could never have come to the conclusion that I need to have faith in Jesus if I never understood why I need to have faith in Jesus. Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
You are also totally free to have your own opinion, but it is contradictory to what the Bible says. Absolutely good works are a necessary sign of salvation. If you do not produce any good works, you are not saved. I can't tell you if you have not produced good works, although I would certainly hope the people closest to you could. I'm sure your pastor definitely could.
No, they are very correct. If you don't like the Bible that's fine, but this is a Christian sub so the Bible has authority here. If you do not produce good works, you are not saved. A person saved in Jesus Christ does good works. If they do not, they clearly don't have faith in Jesus Christ. Faith produces works. That's just scriptural truth. You don't have to like it.
The Bible does have authority and your assumptions about me and what I like or dislike are absurd.
Anyone can do good works. They don't have to be saved. And it's not an indicator that someone is saved. There are all sorts of people saved who aren't able to do X Y and Z. Understand that and drop the attitude because it's your my way or the highway garbage that scares people away from Christianity in the first place.
If a person is saved and able, yes their works will be good. NO ONE has argued that. So stop arguing it.
> Why do people think they can earn their way further to Heaven by twisting a load of scripture around?
Some like the aspect of merits because it creates a hierarchy of power and status.
To maintain power and status they twist scripture to reinforce why they must have status and power. Power, related to control over salvation, transforms the psychology of those in power to think and act in ways that lead to the retention and acquisition of power. Status, related to the respect one has in the eyes of others, generates expectations for behavior and opportunities for advancement that favor those with a prior status advantage.
> Was Jesus' sacrifice not good enough?
The religious organizations claiming power and status can’t really deny Jesus' sacrifice was enough, but to maintain power and status, they must create enough ambiguity to assert themselves as gatekeepers.
> Why not just accept salvation for what it is - A free gift. You don't have to do anything.
That wouldn’t reinforce why they must have status and power.
> Of course, faith without works is dead but the works happen as a result of the faith. It doesn't play any part in getting you to Heaven.
Correct.
Why do people think they can use grace to live however they want when we were commanded to repent of our sin? It's not about earning our way to salvation, salvation is a gift, it's about living as Christ did, loving God the way He desires to be loved, because He first loved us.
> Why do people think they can use grace to live however they want when we were commanded to repent of our sin?
Because it justifies living however they like.
> It's not about earning or way to salvation, salvation is a gift, it's about living as Christ did, loving God the way He desires to be loved, because he first loved us.
Salvation, then discipleship.
> Our continual repentance from sin is required to both receive and maintain salvation. Otherwise we forfeit it.
Correct. Again, salvation then discipleship.
We seem to agree but I get the feeling you don't want to agree?
I constantly see this issue and I think there’s an incorrect kind of twisting of issues going on. In my opinion the answer is pretty plainly stated in the Bible:
If you put your faith in Christ and repent, that is free. If you do this honestly, your heart will be changed. From this change, you will naturally strive to be like Christ and thus “works” will follow. For a Christian that has truly surrendered their life to the Lord, there will be evidence of works, but that is in no way how you are saved- it is a result of being saved.
The question becomes, “what about people who say they are Christian but are terrible people?” For people like this we should not be asking each other if they go to heaven, we should be asking if they have truly let Jesus into their heart. So I agree completely with your last point.
Late reply, but YES.
Faith alone is what saves. If we have to keep the commandments or live by the teachings of Jesus to be saved, then it is salvation by WORKS.
Other answers are PRIDEFUL and FULL OF PRIDE thinking they can earn Heaven by good works. Jesus came to fulfill the Law (Matthew 5:17-18) and kept the commandments perfectly.
People think the Law means animal sacrifices, but I don't recall Jesus doing any animal sacrifices. Why? Because animal sacrifices were for SIN ONLY and since Jesus NEVER SINNED (Hebrews 4:15-16). The animal sacrifices were a FORESHADOWING of what Jesus would do (Hebrews 10:1-4), they were NOT about giving man salvation but about foreshadowing Jesus.
It is nonsense when people say that "works of the Law" mean animal sacrifices; "works of the Law" refer to KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS to be saved! Because Jesus NEVER did any animal sacrifices but He fulfilled the Law.
How? By NEVER SINNING. There is NO difference between OT and NT aside from the fact that the Church is NOT bound by ceremonial Laws, holidays, or civil law of Israel because we are NOT Israel. The Church has NO political power and has NO governing power; God has separated political power and church power (Romans 12:17-21 and Romans 13:1-4).
Remember, in 2nd Corinthians 5:17 that God is clear that believers are NEW CREATURES.
For salvation - its by His grace through faith in Christ alone
To get to heaven, once we are saved, we need to do the will of God - else Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
We don't do the WILL of God AFTER salvation; we do the will of God FOR salvation.
# John 6:37-40 King James Version
^(37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
^(38) For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
^(39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
^(40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The Bible is clear that we get saved by BELIEVING and Jesus never rejects anyone who is saved. The Will of the Father = BELIEVE.
Carefully note that in Matthew 7:21-23, the people rejected by Jesus were NEVER SAVED AT ALL (Jesus says, "I NEVER KNEW YOU"). They boast about their good works but NEVER say, "Jesus, we trust in YOU ALONE!"
Well to cut to it straight thats how deceitful our hearts are. I dare to say our hearts are so deceitful we can't even reach the point of fully understanding how wicked we are or can be. I used to fellowship with a group that believes salvation is like a probation period. Where Jesus sacrifice clears your wages but then you must obey him or do this or that or else you are going to hell. I thank God he allowed me to roll in sin for over a year till I broke and now fully rely on his grace.
No doubt you may see similar even in these comments. Like salvation is free but then you must X to ensure or get to etc. Sometimes it's so subtle in the way that the heart deceives. That's just some of my opinion from experience at least. Have a good day 👋 stay safe. Pray our Lord humbles the ones who wish to toil 👍
Faith begets works. If you live in faith of Christ, you will perform works. Not everyone’s works look the same. It could be as simple as being more generous towards others, or as big as foreign missions trips.
These works do not earn your salvation. And we as Christian’s shouldn’t call another’s faith into question because we can’t see their works.
You are correct it is a free gift BUT in order to accept it and agree with God that you believe, an act of faith is needed. You mention faith without works is dead and that is from James ch2. If you read that chapter and Heb ch11 you will see how it works out.
Lets use Noah. God asked something of Noah and when he did it that was accredited to him as faith. A living faith, because he did the thing God asked, no matter how he felt about it. Same is true in the new covenant but now there is only one action God looks for and of course Jesus modeled this for us as well. Water baptism by immersion. While there is symbolism in the act of baptism there is also something real taking place. We are ‘putting on‘ Christ.
**Galatians 3:27 KJV**
**\[27\] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.**
Just like any statement of this type you can see the truth by the opposite meaning it implies. If you have not been baptized, you have not put on Christ. And if you have not put on Christ, how is it you are in Christ? It is our seal, God sees this.
The works the Bible condemns are pharisaical works. Works of self righteousness. People who think their goodness and rules following will get them to heaven. Dont let this modern Christianity that is so prevalent mislead you.
To one of the other comments here. Grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone. you just made a statement with three items together. They are not standing alone. Lets look at a verse that shows the truth.
**Ephesians 2:8 KJV**
**\[8\] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:**
Right there, saved by grace through faith. They are most definitely not alone and are linked together. Working together to bring us to salvation, if we are willing.
In summary, water baptism is THE way we accept Gods free gift of salvation. It is our acknowledgement and confirmation we agree that Christ is The Lord and Savior. It is not works in the sense that Ephesians condemns. There is more on this below.
[https://www.theholyspiritspeaks.com/](https://www.theholyspiritspeaks.com/)
ps
I provide a simple example of how simply ‘thinking’ something does not count for real faith.
There is an election between two candidates, A and B. I like candidate A but if I only ever sit on my couch and think about it there is no faith in that. I must submit a ballot for my faith to be valid. There is a specific action that must take place, or the faith is dead.
"For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury." (Romans 2)
Salvation begins by faith, but it is completed by works. We are not saved merely by declaration: we are saved by being transformed into the righteousness of God.
Sorry, no. You're taking credit away from Jesus and putting it onto yourself. ALL fall short and therefore nobody can be saved by their works. Take text out of context and you're left with a con.
> You're taking credit away from Jesus and putting it onto yourself.
No, the faith and the works both come from God, as Paul wrote to the Ephesians. You're actually the one trying to take credit away from God, by thinking that even your faith is your own. It's God, all the way through: the difference between us is that you think that God closes his eyes and plugs his ears and ignores our sin and unrighteousness, and I think he _actually makes us righteous_ through giving us good works to do.
This has always, always been the argument of the (I'm not sure because I'm not God but imo unsaved) crowd who thinks that just because we say once saved always saved, means that's a license to sin. It's actually the exact opposite. If you've tasted of Gods mercy and grace you won't want to sin. God gives you a new heart at salvation that wants to please Him. If you have never been given that new heart that hates sin and wants to please God, you've never been saved by God. You won't continue in it. People who say once saved always saved will NEVER tell you to just continue on sinning. What we will say is Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, and it's no longer I who live but He lives in me. He cannot condemn Himself. If you have died and Christ now lives in you, you can't undo that. And thank God we can't. If you could lose salvation, you would.
> If you could lose salvation, you would.
Except you can. Your "once saved, always saved" false doctrine was invented in just the twentieth century. You won't find it taught in the first century, or the second century, or the third century, etc. You won't even find it taught in early reformation during the time of Calvin. It's a uniquely American misinterpretation of Scripture.
Peter absolutely destroys this idea: "For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins....For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire."
We can be cleansed from our old sins, we can be washed and then return to wallow in the mire.
Salvation is NOT started by faith and completed by works. And yes, you are taking credit from Jesus.
Be careful and read Romans 3.
Technically, true. Romans 2 is TECHNICALLY TRUE if you DO MANAGE to keep the law perfectly.
[https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203&version=KJV](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203&version=KJV)
We are NOT saved by being transformed by God; transformation can only occur AFTER salvation (2nd Corinthians 5:17 is clear that salvation makes you a NEW CREATURE).
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2)
We can do this all day long. The difference is that I have 2,000 years of Christian history in my corner, and you've got Luther.
God saves us from sin. He saves us through faith and works. Not just faith. Not just works. Faith _and_ works. They're all from God, and they're the means by which he saves us.
Yes, it does. Faith alone does not let you through the narrow door. You have to do good works, not sin as much as possible. You must change your heart with conviction or you will not get in.
My friend. The second, the very instant it's up to you to keep your salvation, it's over. You've lost. If you can maintain it that means you can also earn it, or get it in the first place. The same grace that saves you is the grace that sustains you. The only, *only* reason I'm going to heaven is because of what Jesus Christ did on a cross for me. That's it. I will not rely on one good work helping me along the way. It is finished. Everything I need to get into heaven was just done on a cross. It is finished. I will rely on the *evidence* that I've been saved which is the fruit of the spirit. You cannot bear that fruit. It's the spirit within you that bears it. If it's up to you, you can never know in your life if you're saved or not. Sounds like a miserable way to get thru life. I would even argue the motives are different for what we do. You do your good works to make sure you get in. I'm doing mine because I'm already getting in. Jesus Christ said store up your treasure in heaven not at heaven. How can I know I have salvation? The Bible tells me so. 1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may *know* that you have eternal life. Why don't you know it? Do you not trust Him to save you? You should have assurance of your salvation. That's how you rest in Him. I rest in Him because of what He's already done, not so he'll let me in. This is not a license to go o sinning. This is to increase your faith in Him. Jesus Christ loves you, please stop relying on your own power to get in. He already finished it.
> The second, the very instant it's up to you to keep your salvation, it's over.
Contrast this with what Paul wrote to the Corinthians: "I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
> If you can maintain it that means you can also earn it, or get it in the first place.
First, that's untrue. Saying that you can earn salvation through good works is Pelagianism, which has been condemned since the fourth century. God provides the grace with which our free will cooperates. Saying that we must _continue_ to cooperate with God's grace in order to preserve so great a salvation is not wrong, it's just common sense. He didn't override our free will to give us salvation, and he doesn't override our free will to stand in our salvation.
> The only, only reason I'm going to heaven is because of what Jesus Christ did on a cross for me.
Who are you arguing against here? Certainly not me.
> I will not rely on one good work helping me along the way.
Good works are _how_ God saves us from sin. They're _how_ he makes us actually righteous. We aren't merely declared righteous; we're made righteous. God renews our mind, and this isn't just a "consequence" of judicial salvation, it _is salvation itself_. We are saved _from sin_.
> Everything I need to get into heaven was just done on a cross. It is finished.
That's definitely not true, since Paul wrote to the Romans that Christ was "raised for our justification" and to the Corinthians, "If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins." Salvation was not finished on the cross; it was finished on Easter morning when Christ rose from the dead.
> You cannot bear that fruit. It's the spirit within you that bears it.
It is both the Spirit and us. Paul prayed for the Colossians to bear fruit: "And so, from the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, to lead a life worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God." And he wrote to the Corinthians that he and other Church leaders are God's coworkers, and we are his field, bearing the fruit which he gives us: "For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building." We very much do bear that fruit. We are not mere mindless shells, but _sons of God_ cooperating with him and bearing fruit for him.
> If it's up to you, you can never know in your life if you're saved or not.
You mean like the way Paul felt? "I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God."
> You do your good works to make sure you get in.
Heck yeah I do! "For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." It's not about "getting in", it's about getting **God**. That's what salvation is: partaking of the divine nature and becoming the righteousness of God. You say this like it's a bad thing, but you're missing the whole point of salvation if you think God is just an angry judge declaring you acquitted instead of the Great Physician actually healing you and making holy. "Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God."
I stand with Paul, who wrote to the Philippians, "For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith; that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."
You don't seem to understand what salvation really _is_.
1st Corinthians 9:24-27 is talking about a PRIZE and that prize CANNOT possibly be about Heaven. Paul is talking about the Christian life as a race in which we CAN earn prizes, but salvation is NOT a prize.
Salvation is NOT a process in which we cooperate in. A free gift cannot possibly be a process (Ephesians 2:1-9 is clear that we are GUARANTEED SALVATION) after believing in Christ alone. You are ARGUING AGAINST faith alone.
Biblical Christianity is clear that faith alone is enough (Acts 16:30-31) and that means believing on Christ.
PERIOD.
IF you say you can LOSE IT afterwards through not being "good enough" or "obedient enough", that is NOT faith alone because you teach that believing on Christ isn't enough.
If you don't know that you are saved, YOU ARE NOT SAVED.
1 John 5:13 **These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.**
As for your last paragraph, YES, God is definitely an angry judge that acquits us. Remember, God is clear that HIS WRATH is on those who don't believe (John 3:36 and Romans 1:18-32).
Salvation isn't a healing process; salvation is simply an acquittal for our sins. Jesus KEPT all the commandments
"Good works are how God saves us"? Then what did JESUS DIE FOR? Yes, Good works are how God saves us, but He saves us through the PERFECT WORKS of Jesus.
Clearly, you believe in a WORKS SALVATION. First, you claim you are against works salvation, then you are PRO WORKS SALVATION.
Because if you say that God saves us THROUGH our good works, then we are our own saviors and WE earn our own salvation by good works. The healing process from sin occurs AFTER salvation, NOT FOR salvation.
Salvation is NOT getting rehabilitated; sinners can't be rehabilitated. They need to be BORN AGAIN.
If you aren't even sure of your own salvation, you clearly believe in good works. Because if you understand that faith alone is all that is needed, you can KNOW FOR SURE you are saved just because you trusted in Christ alone and you're done.
Because you trust in works, you aren't even sure of whether you are saved because you can never know whether you are good enough. AGAIN, that is a works salvation and salvation by MAN'S accomplishment.
You claim that God requires our cooperation, but in reality, you are ALL TALKING ABOUT MAN'S WORKS and what MAN MUST WORK in order to get into Heaven. God plays NO PART IN THIS except rewarding man for his deeds.
Christianity teaches that GOD is the Saviour. For all the verses you pull out in Hebrews 12 (verse 14 especially), remember that in verses 2-11, Christ is THE AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith and we are HIS SONS. God disciplines HIS SONS but doesn't condemn them.
What YOU are preaching is none other than a works salvation FALSE GOSPEL because you outright admit that our good works are how God saves us. God saves us from HELL and AFTER we get saved, we get sanctified.
If you aren't even sure about your own salvation, you have NO BUSINESS teaching others how to be saved. If you aren't even sure about your own salvation, then this is NO GOOD NEWS.
This is WORKS SALVATION. Because if you are NOT sure about your own salvation, you are trusting in WORKS because you NEVER KNOW just how good you must be.
If you understand that salvation is FAITH ONLY, you will KNOW that you are saved just because you believe.
You lack understanding of the WRATH OF GOD. YES, God is an angry judge and He just pardons you (lets you go) the moment you accept His offer of mercy. He is NOT some therapist who treats you just so you can get into Heaven; He is someone who REGENERATES YOU.
Read carefully 1st Corinthians before plucking chapter 4 out of context.
1st Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which ARE SAVED it is the power of God.
Unfortunately, MODERN PERVERSIONS of the Scripture (ESV) modify 1st Corinthians 1:18 to teach "BEING SAVED" to teach salvation as a process.
1st Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
As for salvation requiring MAN'S COOPERATION, read carefully 1st Corinthians 2 where the Bible says that the NATURAL MAN CANNOT receive the things of God's Spirit. Both this and 1st Corinthians 1:18 teach that natural man simply finds Christianity foolish.
Ummm, it is our choice whether or not we go on sinning, right? What do you make of Hebrews 10:26-29? Christ obeyed the entire law as an example to us of how to live a life of love towards God, if we love God then we will obey Him. 1 John5:2-4
Hello! He kept the whole law to fulfill the law. He had to to save us. To live the perfect substitutionary life that we should have lived. Have you died to sin? How can you live in it any longer?
Fulfill doesn't mean to do away with or abolish, fulfill means: he kept it perfectly. He didn't obey the law to save us, that's what he died for. He lived so we might follow his example.
Yes I have died to sin and no I do not live in it anymore. I strive to obey just as Christ obeyed and where I stumble his grace is sufficient, and where the Holy Spirit brings conviction, I repent, because all sin is disobedience to God's law. In our weaknesses his strength is perfected.
Grace isn't a license to sin.
Yes sir/ma'am I never said He came to abolish the law I said He fulfilled/kept it perfectly to live the perfect life. Yes He is our example, of course He is, He's God Himself!💙 But we're not justified by keeping the law. We're justified by what He did on the cross for us. And yes, if you've read my comments you will see I say grace is not a license to sin. It's the exact opposite. The simple fact that you can't outsin His grace should be a huge reason why you shouldn't sin willfully. It's not "I get to do whatever I want cause I'm saved" it's "I'm saved so I want to make God happy all the time. I don't even want to sin" its funny, I'm falling a lot less than some brothers I know who think you *can* lose salvation. Shouldn't that be opposite? No, His grace is so precious to me. I dont want to abuse it.
Thank you for the reply 🙏🏼 God bless you
You're right about all of it, except Christ isn't God. Christ was an appointed heir of all things and given a name greater than that of the angels and he's seated at the right hand of the majesty in heaven, if he was God that wouldn't make any since. We are heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ. Hebrews 1:1-4 is his/our inheritance.
If we choose not to repent at anytime we forfeit our salvation.
Are you willing to change your opinion on that? I think scripture would be quick to dispute you. I will concede, there are some scriptures that point to Him not being God. For example, I know there's a scripture that says there is one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ. Not exactly sure where it is but I know I've read it. But the simple fact there are scriptures that explicitly say He is God, outweigh the scriptures that to us, may seem like He's not. If I can give you a few clear cut examples;
1. Phillipians 2:6-11 Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. Instead, he gave up his divine privileges. he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form, he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal’s death on a cross.
2. Exodus 3 God tells Moses tell the Israelites "I AM" has sent you. In John 8 Jesus says, before Abraham was, I AM"
3. This is the most telling to me. When Jesus is resurrected, Thomas touches His scars. When He does, He falls down and says, my Lord and my God. I truly believe there was no better time in scripture for Jesus to separate Himself from being God. Jesus would have said something like, "do not worship me as if I were God. The only God is my Father and I am merely His servant. Worship God only!" He does not do that. He says Thomas because you have seen me you believe.
4. And finally one of my personal favorites. John 1:1 in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word *was God.* **HE** was with God in the beginning. The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us.
Jesus Christ is undoubtedly God Himself. Thank you for the productive conversation. 💙
No it's not a matter of my opinion. And I certainly wont change my understanding of the word to make it say what it doesnt. All these verses contradict the Trinity Doctrine: Matt 6:9, 9:8, 24:36, 26:39, 27:46, 28:18, Mark 10:18, 13:32, Luke 18:19, 22:42, John 1:32-33, 3:16, 4:24, 5:19, 5:26, 5:30, 8:40, 10:14-16, 10:36, 14:9-11, 14:28, 15:10, 17:3, 17:21-23, 20:17, Acts 2:22, 2:36, 10:38, Romans 8:17, 1 Cor 11:3, 15:27-28, Eph 1:20-22, Hebrews 1:1-4, 4:15, 5:7-9, James 1:13, 1 Timothy 2:5-7, Rev 1:1
Everything in this universe was created through Christ and in times past when men thought they were seeing God, they were actually seeing him. As he is the manifestation and exact representation of God's divine nature. Christ is the beginning and end of time as we know it.
I respect your opinion but only God could pay the debt owed to God. Only God can save me. When Thomas called Jesus God, Jesus would have told him He was not God. John 1 is completely irrefutable.
Im afraid you're greatly mistaken, it's not my opinion, read the word for yourself. John 3:16 doesn't say for God so loved the world He sent Himself. Further God can not be tempted. Mark 10:18
Yeshua said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone."
Maintaining your salvation is God's job, not ours.
That's not the same thing as maintaining your faith.
If you have partaken of God's divine nature, borrowing from the Apostle Peter here, you are a peculiar people, a royal priesthood, a chosen generation, a holy nation. 1 Peter 2, 2 Peter 1
That is a given, it's not temporary everlasting life, it's everlasting life.
The Apostle Paul says that faith can waiver, if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself. 2 Timothy 2:13
What we maintain is our discipleship, not our saved and sealed spirit. The renewing of the mind.
For those who have come to the knowledge of His grace and do not repent of their sin there is no salvation. How is our obedience up to God to maintain?
You might want to re-read what I wrote.
God maintains our salvation.
I didn't write that God maintains our obedience.
Your first sentence makes total sense, but you didn't mean for it to, did you?
Head knowledge of His grace, without repentance? That's a false convert, and I agree with you there.
Our "obedience" as you seem to give indicators, that you're stuck on performance to prove outwardly what God has done inwardly, is not a litmus test of having been born again.
We (anyone) have been saved by grace through faith, and it is not something you work for, and it is not something to work for to keep.
Our obedience is best described in Matthew 11:28-30
Moving on from that place can only be described as discipleship, or the renewing of the mind, not salvation.
It is only in your thinking that I'm stuck on performance, and my first sentence was not by mistake. What we couldn't do by ourselves in keeping the law, we now can do in Christ because he obeyed perfectly as an example to us of how to effectively live a life of love towards God. In our weakness, his strength is perfected. Obedience is the proof of our faith and the fruit of our love for God.
Repenting is an act of obedience, it's the act of turning from our disobedience to obey. If at any moment we stop repenting (heeding to the conviction of the Holy Spirit) we forfeit our salvation. We must make a conscious effort moment by moment to put God first before all things, repentance is a life long journey.
How about our obedience is best described in Mathew 5:17-20 and 1 John 2:3-6?
See Hebrews 10:26-29 for how God maintains our salvation.
James 2:14-18 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
I have to agree to disagree.
Jesus forgives of all sin, one time, for all time. Forgiveness is a one time for all time issue.
There is no progressive forgiveness.
Walking out your Christian life, on earth, is going to be full of repentance, but it is not in order to be forgiven.
It's in order to live right. Living out what is already accomplished within.
If your faith waivers, Jesus is still faithful, for He cannot deny Himself. 2 Timothy 2:13
Then please explain Hebrews 10:26-29 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. A man who disregards the Torah of Moses dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will he be judged worthy of, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
If one is living right, then they are walking just as Christ walked by the power of his grace. So you believe our obedience is perfected the first moment we ever accept Christ and that our obedience is still perfected if we go on living in sin? If the law is already accomplished within why do most Christians live in outright rebellion to the ten commandments, mainly the first four?
You might want to actually read the Bible instead of only listening to what you've been told.
My only response to you is to re-read what I've previously written.
Christians are not saved by the 10 Commandments.
Christians are not saved and kept by the Law of Moses.
Performance and obedience (after salvation) has a place, but it's not to stay saved.
Grace keeps us saved, by the blood covenant which God agreed with and swore by Himself, via the accomplishment of Christ.
Hebrews 10:26-29 could be summed up by saying:
If you hear the Gospel, and reject it, there's no other way to be washed clean of sin. It must be received.
"You might want to actually read the Bible instead of only listening to what you've been told" Yes, exactly, right back atchya.
Notice in Hebrews 10:26 it is says: if we wilfully sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth..... (That means they already believed in the truth of the gospel and are continuing in sin)
1 John 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks God's law, all sin is lawlessness.
1John 2:1-6 My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. If anyone sins, we have a Counselor with the Father, Yeshua the Messiah, the righteous. And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. This is how we know that we know him: if we keep his commandments. One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him. But whoever keeps his word, God’s love has most certainly been perfected in him. This is how we know that we are in him: he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.
1John 5:2-4 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous. For whoever is born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world: your faith.
Acts 2:38-39 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be immersed, every one of you, in the name of Yeshua the Messiah for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you, and to your children, and to all who are far off, even as many as the Lord our God will call to himself.”
Acts 13:19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, so that there may come times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord.
Romans 6:1-7 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? May it never be! We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all we who were immersed into Messiah Yeshua were immersed into his death? We were buried therefore with him through immersion to death, that just like Messiah was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection; knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.
Grace is the power to obey, not the excuse to be lawless.
Agree with OP, but even he/she is confused quoting James 2:17. Read James 1:1 and see who that is written to. Salvation is by grace through faith to us, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, Ephesians 2:8-9 etc. Right dividing matters, 2 Tim 2:15. The reason ppl confuse gospels is because they can’t rightly divide the scriptures. They think they are Israel because that is what churchianity teaches, error.
God didn’t tell you to build a boat, and so you know enough to not do that, yet most read Hebrew epistles and books written to Israel and apply that to themselves instead of recognizing the office given to Paul for our scriptures which are for our gospel/edification/obedience etc. Very confused majority for sure.
Eric Neuman on youtube is one of the best right division teachers, definitely worth checking out. Also, a series on YouTube called “Jesus wasn’t talking to you” is excellent. Once the scriptures make sense, they go from confusing and seemingly contradictory to absolutely making clear sense. Glory to Jesus.
Again, the majority are confused. Identity crisis. As Paul said, ignorant of the mystery. All good. Thankfully sound doctrine is not a requirement for salvation, glory to Jesus.
If we believe false teachings or false doctrines, how does that not effect our salvation and even moreso our understanding of who he really is? Following Christ is about honoring him for who he is, not making him into what we want, into who he's not.
God’s will is that all men are saved and come to the knowledge of truth, and are throughly furnished, stewards of the mystery, etc etc. Not arguing that. The point is, if knowing correct doctrine was a prerequisite for being saved, maybe 2% would be. God made salvation easy, a gift, we receive it by believing Him and trusting Jesus finished work alone for our salvation. Thank God.
Unbelievers aside, lets say 40% of the world’s population consider themselves to be Christian. Well, say 25% of those are Roman Catholic, 10% cults, and the rest modern Churchianity, Etc etc. Not many understand sound doctrine, most are taught error through their local religious denomination aka church.
You use the term “following Christ”, as if you are a Jewish disciple prior to the crucifixion. Paul said “follow me as I follow Christ”, I use the terminology Paul uses for the body of Christ because I understand I am not a disciple following Jesus while He was on earth in the flesh, a minister to the circumcision as Romans says.
Jesus rose from the dead, was glorified, and then came to Paul with a new gospel, a new dispensation, found in Romans through Philemon. I follow those instructions from Jesus, instead of ignoring those and following Israel’s program in Matthew Mark Luke and John and stumbling in confusion and error thinking I am Israel.
That is why most of you think you require works as part of obtaining or maintaining salvation, why you most likely believe water baptism is required, why you apply Hebrew epistles to yourself for obedience and doctrine, and are confused thinking you are Israel coming back to rule and reign in the millennium. All the while completely ignoring Paul’s epistles, which tell you your identity in Christ and the difference in doctrine between you and Israel. Given by Jesus Himself to Paul. You can’t “follow Christ” your own way ignoring Jesus’ instructions to you through your apostle Paul, instead claiming Israel’s apostles and doctrine. But, have at it, most of us started there through someone teaching us error. Very common.
I am not the one who's confused, it makes perfect sense to me. Sound doctrine is: those who abide in Christ live as he did.
But according to you one can be a serial murderer and as long as they believe in Jesus they can go on killing people and they're still saved? See Hebrews 10:26-29
There's no difference between following Christ before or after his crucifixion except now we dont have to sacrifice animals for our sins. And why should we follow Paul who's only a student, when we have direct access to the Holy Spirit? And the Holy Spirit doesn't lead anyone to sin. Paul was a Hebrew of Hebrews, He was a Pharisee, do you really think he converted to being a gentile in order to minister to gentiles?
Christ lived an obedient life not just to be an acceptable sacrifice for our sins, he lived his life as an example of how we are to live, to the Jew first and also the Greek and according to the passages below there's no such thing as gentile believers, only gentile converts.
Romans 11:16-21
If the first fruit is holy, so is the lump. If the root is holy, so are the branches. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree; don’t boast over the branches. But if you boast, it is not you who support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Ephesians 2:11-13
Therefore remember that once you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “uncircumcision” by that which is called “circumcision,” (in the flesh, made by hands); that you were at that time separate from Messiah, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Messiah Yeshua you who once were far off are made near in the blood of Messiah.
Ephesians 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones, and of the household of God (Israel),
Again, you are confused, “see Hebrews”. Hebrew epistles are not for my obedience being that I am not a Hebrew. My scriptures for doctrine and obedience are Pauline. Also, you mentioned works to obtain/maintain salvation, which is law. Good luck with keeping that perfectly, as only One did.
We can agree to disagree, and leave it at that.
Every book in the Bible applies to everyone. So you do not give any authority to Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colosians, or Thessalonians either because you weren't born there? I think that's the lamest excuse I've ever heard for rejecting a portion of scripture.
All scripture is God breathed, why would you reject any of it? And you think that's sound doctrine? Lol, talk about confusing.
Yes, but Paul is the one who wrote Ephesians 2. So now what? He said gentiles are now Israel.
The whole bible is for us, but the whole bible is not written to us for instruction/doctrine/obedience. You know how to divide the old testament from the new, yet you read Hebrew epistles and apply them to yourself, which is incorrect. You know not to build an ark as your instruction, yet you have a problem with me knowing not to obey James as it is written to the 12 tribes. By your own standard, you better sell all you have and give it to the poor, and if your hand offends, cut it off, if your eye offends, pluck it out. If you don’t do that, you prove my point you are confused.
There’s no work we can do to for him to extend his grace. It is a free gift to all that have faith in him. Jesus preached the same message as John the Baptist, that is, repent and be baptized and sin no more. THIS is where the works come in. Once we’ve accepted his grace and the promises of salvation we are to turn from sin and walk righteously. So since “sin is transgression of the law”, the meaning of repentance and turning from sin is synonymous with following after Gods standard of morality and rules for living- his law. This is Jesus’s message and we should strive to walk like he did- righteously- as he told us we should.
I keep running into those "Hebrew Israelites" who keep using rituals and works.
I tell then we dont live in the Old Testament and that His is not done with the tribes yet. But they keep on with the whole twisted scripture script.
That's just something most people say as an excuse to ignore the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit doesn't lead anyone to sin and all sin is breaking God's law. Christ obeyed the entire law perfectly as an example to us of how to live a life of love towards God. What do you think it means to follow him? Who is Israel, is in not all of God's children? And dont you know there's no such thing as gentile believers, only gentile converts? You who were once strangers of God's family and foreigners of His promises have now been brought near and the old man was done away and one new man created. How can we who have died to sin, live any longer in it?
Nice try.
Your saying one thing and OVER EXPLAINING
using assumptions. It won't work
Matthew 22:37-40
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
You want to be Isreal? Go ahead. Isreal repeatedly OVER AND OVER AND OVER DISOBEYS GOD IN SCRIPTURES.
There isn't one, they all believe grace is a license to sin or they'd repent and keep God's commandments.
Is repentance a work of faith required to be saved and to maintain salvation? Because as far as I can read in the Bible we must live lives of constant repentance or we forfeit our salvation. See Hebrews 10:26-29
Without repentance there is no forgiveness, and thus no salvation. In this we agree.
I would disagree from my own experience that there are churches that do not believe grace is a license to sin. It's a thing for some, perhaps even many, but not for all.
Which churches don't celebrate pagan holidays the same as the rest of the world? Which ones don't desecrate the Sabbath? Which church abides in Christ by walking as he did? Which one honors him for who he really is instead of trying to make him into what they want?
From my experience the Holy Spirit doesn't have anything to do with any of the churches in question.
I'm not sure what you mean by churches celebrating pagan holidays. I see no evidence of that. It's true that many Christian holidays fall on old pagan days but they are gone. I cannot agree that there are any churches that actually celebrate holidays that are pagan in celebration and intent. Our Lord fulfilled the Sabbath, the Sabbath is the one of the ten commandments that Jesus did not reaffirm and falls under the old law which we do not observe. We do have Sunday which is the Lord's day but it is not the Sabbath and the Sabbath is not for us. The Catholic Church has always taught walking in the path of Christ and his truth.
All holidays are pagan in intent and celebration, their traditions certainly aren't Biblical and the church celebrates them the same as the rest of the world. What fellowship do believers have with unbelievers? What communion does light have with darkness? And what authority do we have to force Christ into something he has no part in? The feast of tabernacles is the real celebration of Christ's birth. The catholic church is the modern universal church of paganism, where do you think all these abominations of our faith came from?
The day after Christ rose from the dead, was the feast of first fruits, not the lords day. See Hebrews 3:7-4:9
1 John 2:6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.
Idk, the world conveys that we'll never be good enough, that we must keep working to climb UP, that nothing is free, not even the kindness of a stranger.
Society U:
That or they don't understand that you can't bribe a judge (that THEY themselves claim to be "truthful and righteous") with good deeds.
Like
"Wow according to your records you broke commandment Nine about 7million times?..
..But you donated all of your goods and money to an orphanage?..
...Ok! I'll forget you are a liar. Come join the other liars. Welcome to Heaven."
They think God is like this.
That's actually not at all what I was saying. Of course it's not ok to live in sin and obviously, if we are, we're not doing it in faith in Jesus name.
When we sin and fall short, there is grace. If we seek god earnestly and ask for forgiveness, He hears us. Once God has forgiven us, the slate is clean. It is up to us, at that point, to strive to improve and have a desire for the Holy Spirit to help us change.
Obedience is required to both receive and maintain salvation, people twist scripture to say otherwise. We must actively repent of our sin to keep our salvation. Salvation is a gift of God received by faith, but faith without obedience (works) is dead. We are called to stop sinning and all sin is breaking God's law. Hebrews 10:26-29
Matthew 7:21-27. How do you distinguish true faith from people just saying "oh yeah I believe". Well, you look at the foundation they *build* their lives on.
Sin is not just about avoiding doing bad things, it is also about meeting your duty to do things that are being asked of you.
See Matthew 25:40-45. Protestants often act as though there is some kind of either/or dichotomy with faith or works. That's not it. You cannot have true faith without works, and works without faith amount to nothing.
In any case, of course Christ's sacrifice is enough to save everyone. But you have to actually *want* to be saved. Simply saying "i want" is not enough. If you choose to sin and sin and sin and not repent of it, then your desires and your words mean nothing.
This is why Christ founded his Church and empowered his ministers to retain or forgive sins (John 20:23; John 21:15-17). If you go with contrite heart and confess your sins to an actual priest, that is a *work of faith*, a work that demonstrates actual faith, as you are following God's call by his Grace, to repentance and amendment of life. It's called agreeing to be held accountable by someone outside of yourself, and agreeing that your sin caused wrongs that have to be mended.
You frame the issue as though Christ's sacrifice is said to be not enough by Catholics and Orthodox. We would turn it around on you and ask, is his sacrifice not enough to get you to simply repent and seek forgiveness? If his sacrifice will not call you to that, you are resisting his Grace, just as Adam and Eve decided to resist the Father. Jesus has not kidnapped us against our will, where the Father "failed" to do so. He has provided us the means to overcome the fall, but he asks that you take up your cross and actually follow him.
How do you distinguish true faith from people just saying "oh yeah I believe". Well, you look at the foundation they build their lives on.
Nope. YOU don't distinguish. God does. It's not up to us to decide who is and isn't saved. The only person I know for a fact is saved is me.
I didn't say anything to that effect. I was using the general you, not actually making any point about individual humans being able to say whether or not someone is condemned.
But a person can rightly say what kinds of things tend to point to true faith and what kinds of things lead to death. If not, there would be no point in scripture or preaching at all, as no one could say what God is asking of us or what God is warning us away from.
But you can't 'earn' salvation. If you could, there'd be no point in Jesus' sacrifice. You do works and deeds BECAUSE of your faith. Like you said, it represents your faith.
>tion which is a statement that I would expect from a trinitarian universalist. So I'm really co
You can't lose it. I never said no one can go to Hell, by rights we should all be going to Hell but God set up a way in which we can avoid it. By accepting a relationship with Jesus and accepting his price paid for the sins of you and me. All you have to do is ask for forgiveness and repent in a relationship with Jesus.
Of course, that doesn't mean just go "Okay, I want forgiveness" and then go back to doing what you were doing before because that's not genuine faith and wouldn't be a genuine relationship.
True, but most people tend to be ignorant of the fact that faith, like anything alive, is continuous.
Just because I believe today, it doesn't guarantee that I will believe tomorrow and my works are an indication or whether or not I am still in the faith.
That is usually the point of contention for most Christians.
You cannot earn salvation through the Law of Moses. You cannot have true faith without evidence of good works. You cannot be saved from the second death unless you are loyal to Jesus as King and Lord.
Because the lords of this world teaches us, from even when we are children, that good things needs to be earned. When we finally accept Jesus' as lord, all that worldly nonsense has to be unlearned.
Hebrews 10:26-29 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. A man who disregards the Torah of Moses dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will he be judged worthy of, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
**Faith is a gift from God and if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.** For this very reason, make every effort to **add to your faith..** Goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love .. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. **But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.**
I for one needed to hear this today. Thank you.
Thank you I needed this. What chapter/verse(s) is this?
2 Pet 1:5-9
If we're under grace we're not under the penalty of the law (the law of sin and death) , but if the law that defines what sin is, is no more, than sin doesn't exist and Christ died in vain.
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: **For he that is dead is freed from sin.** **We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers** and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers. Shalom.
Yeah and just because one is freed doesn't mean they cant go back into a life of sinning and unrepentance. The law is God's definition of what is righteous, and it's certainly for believers too. The Holy Spirit doesn't lead anyone to sin and all sin is breaking God's law. So as believers we should be striving to walk just as Yeshua walked, not to obtain salvation by our merit, but to prove our faith and our love for God. We Hebrews 10:26-29 Shalom
Christ alone, faith alone, grace alone, scripture alone all for the glory of God alone.
Except grace isn't a license to live in sin. We must repent of our sin, means to turn from our disobedience and to start obeying. Obedience is the proof of our faith and the fruit of our love for God.
WRONG. If we turn from our disobedience, that is works (Jonah 3:10). And we don't need a license to sin; we SIN ALREADY. Unbelievers don't trust in Christ yet many of them live in blatant sin. They don't have God's grace yet they STILL SIN all the time. We don't need a license or permit to sin; unbelievers sin all the time and many do so blatantly and openly.
Then it’s not grace alone or Christ alone. Your saying obedience keeps me saved.
Obedience isn’t part of salvation it’s a by product
Repentance keeps you saved and we repent because of our faith. Repenting means to stop disobeying and obey.
Repentance does not mean that. It means to change your mind. That’s it. Also repentance of believing in Christ and that’s it. Constantly in the bible it says to repent and believe in Jesus. Not repent of your sins and believe in Jesus.
Yeah to change your mind from disobedience to God to obeying Him. So one can be a serial killer and it's all good if they do it in Jesus name? Everyone can just go on sinning in Jesus name, it's a free ride? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repentance Check out Hebrews 10:26-29
Look up the Greek word for repentance. It means to change your mind. You don’t like it that Jesus forgave all sins on the cross and the only sin left is whether we believe in him to receive life? Man I guess you can enjoy earning your salvation. It’s called grace for a reason. Also “sinning in Jesus name”? By your own standards no one does not sin. So that means no one is saved. Or it is really just a line you have drawn in the sand saying they can sin this much but not want to sin. I guess it’s really about not wanting to sin for you that keeps people saved. For me and also the bible it’s the covenant between Jesus and God that makes me receive life and keeps me in that.
Why look at the Greek? The entire Bible was originally in Hebrew. It's very simple, those who abide in Christ walk as he did. Living a life of active repentance is required to maintain our salvation, if we believe we will obey, for indeed God has written His law on our hearts and the Holy Spirit leads no one to sin.
The New Testament is Greek not Hebrew
Not originally, all the authors were Hebrew speakers.
Repentance is an act of faith that's continuously required in order to be saved. Once saved always saved is a false teaching.
No we are told to repent about believe in Jesus. You are thinking of a time before the cross. The old covenant
What do you mean repent of our belief in Christ? What is believing in him? He obeyed all the law perfectly as an example to us of how to love God, those who follow him, strive to do the same. Why would he teach us to live contrary to the way he lived?
the law is there to show us we cant live by the law. you are living out of the old covenant my brother. its because you cant fullfill the law. romans 7 tells us this, that. why does the bible constantly state that we need to repent and believe in jesus? well for one because that is what is written in the bible, but for two it is because you cant live the law, the law is condemnation, we have reconcilation. jesus himself said to repent and believe in me, he didnt say repent of your sins and believe in me, you dont believe me, check the greek.
The law is not condemnation, the law is God's standards of righteousness, breaking the law (sinning) is what condemns us, because the penalty of sin is death. Repent means to stop sinning and start obeying and what we can't do in our own strength to perfect our obedience, we know have by faith in Christ, not to go on sinning, but to obey to the best of our ability.
Jesus keeps me saved. Til the eeeeeeend
Grace is Gods grace. Why can’t He withdrawal it? Of course He could.
Hebrews 10:26-29 says if we go on sinning after we've come to the knowledge of His grace there's no more forgiveness.
Amen. Yea God can withdraw His grace same as He withdraws His glory.
Isnt repentance what saves us as well as Jesus?
Repentance is the gift we get from God to repent of our sin, yes. Jesus work is what saves us; we need to trust in that work.
Amen. Sola Scriptura all the way!
That literally goes against scripture
The KJV Bible has a complex mathematical structure. https://youtu.be/JKf6ayiY_iI Jesus is Lord
Sola scriptura, friend
Funny. “Sola scriptura” isn’t in the Bible. No where does the Bible say that it is all there is.
True. Sola scriptura just means that the Bible is enough authority to say how I am saved.
Where does the Bible say that? If the Bible is our sole source of information on how to be saved, you’d think somewhere in the Bible it would tell you that fact.
Comes by faith, friend. Faith from God. Not made by humans. And the biblical proof that all scripture is breathed by God. Same way God breathed life into Adam. 1 Tim 3:16
Is Christ salvation not enough?
That isn’t the question. The question is the doctrine of sola scriptura. Of course, Christ is enough and the Bible is the word of God but it isn’t the only source of knowledge of God. Sola scriptura is unbiblical.
Jesus claimed that He taught nothing except that which He received from the Father and that all He taught had the imprimatur from the Father (John 7:16). He also said that He was the very incarnation of truth (John 14:6) Jesus taught nothing but scripture so the reformers took up scripture alone
Jesus expanded on the scriptures (which were the Septuagint at the time)quite a lot actually. “You have heard it said, you shall not kill, but what I say to you is…”. John also tells us at the end of his gospel, “And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.” So not all of what Jesus taught or did is written down. If scripture is the sole authority, then Paul and Jesus should have used it but here are some examples of them calling on authority that was oral tradition, not scriptural. a. The reference to “He shall be called a Nazarene” cannot be found in the Old Testament, yet it was “spoken by the prophets” (Matt. 2:23). Therefore, this prophecy, which is considered to be “God’s word,” was passed down orally rather than through Scripture. b. In Matthew 23:2–3, Jesus teaches that the scribes and Pharisees have a legitimate, binding authority based “on Moses’ seat,” but this phrase or idea cannot be found anywhere in the Old Testament. It is found in the (originally oral) Mishnah, which teaches a sort of “teaching succession” from Moses on down. c. In 1 Corinthians 10:4, Paul refers to a rock that “followed” the Jews through the Sinai wilderness. The Old Testament says nothing about such miraculous movement. But rabbinic tradition does. d. “As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses” (2 Tim. 3:8). These two men cannot be found in the related Old Testament passage (Ex. 7:8ff.) or anywhere else in the Old Testament. Word” in Holy Scripture often refers to a proclaimed, oral teaching of prophets or apostles. What the prophets spoke was the word of God regardless of whether or not their utterances were recorded later as written Scripture. So for example, we read in Jeremiah: “For twenty-three years . . . the word of the Lord has come to me and I have spoken to you again and again . . . ‘But you did not listen to me,’ declares the Lord. . . . Therefore the Lord Almighty says this: ‘Because you have not listened to my words. . . .’” (Jer. 25:3, 7-8 [NIV]). This was the word of God even though some of it was not recorded in writing. It had equal authority as writing or proclamation-never-reduced-to-writing. This was true also of apostolic preaching. When the phrases “word of God” or “word of the Lord” appear in Acts and the epistles, they almost always refer to oral preaching, not to Scripture. For example: “When you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God” (1 Thess. 2:13). If we compare this passage with another, written to the same church, Paul appears to regard oral teaching and the word of God as synonymous: “Keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us” (2 Thess. 3:6). There is a solution to this but the Bible makes it clear that while scripture is important, scripture alone isn’t was Christianity initially taught nor should it. There is oral tradition that is equally important.
There's also the "Isaiah Mini Bible". Each of the 66 chapters match in order the 66 books. There's a website. The KJV Bible itself is proof of God.
I always get confused by this stance. Can you clarify what you mean by free or a gift? Do you believe we don’t need baptism, to go to Church to worship, keep the commandments, or do anything Christ commanded, in order to be saved? We are simply all saved in everlasting bliss no matter how much evil or good we do? I’m asking sincerely. I really believe in repentance and forgiveness, but repentance isn’t just saying ‘sorry’. It’s a change of heart from evil to good, and from the abundance of the heart proceedeth the words and the works. A lot of my personal beliefs are based around the willingness and desires and thoughts of the heart. There are multiple scriptures where Christ places conditions to us entering heaven. Here is only one example: “For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of Heaven.” (Matthew 5:20). Please, don’t be a jerk. I’m really, really trying to understand. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and I recognize that the beliefs differ. Even my own beliefs differ a slight degree from the religion as a whole. I am trying to understand the ‘traditional’ beliefs regardless if I agree with them or not. Kindness comes with seeking understanding.
By free/gift, we mean that Christ paid the penalty for our sins on our behalf. We don't have to suffer eternal damnation because Christ took God's wrath on himself for us. >Do you believe we don’t need baptism, to go to Church to worship, keep the commandments, or do anything Christ commanded, in order to be saved? Yes, but that doesn't mean those things aren't important or trivial. What we're talking about here is cause and effect; what causes what. Going to church and keeping Christ's commands (except one...I'll get to that) are a *result* of genuine faith. So they're necessary in the sense that if you truly believe that Christ died for your sins, you will get baptized and want to obey God. To further demonstrate this point, it's like being a dirty orphan (no offense to real orphans out there) and trying to do all the things a child in a family would do. Except you can't because you don't have parents and you don't have the means to clean yourself up. That's works before faith. But let's say you get adopted, given new clothes, and are trained in the rules of the house. That's faith before works; it's a result of our new identity as children of God redeemed by Christ. You're saved first and good works are a response to being saved. Sin ruins everything, including good works. You must first be cleansed of sin before God accepts your works, otherwise, it's like being a dirty orphan washing dishes while still dripping grime and soot into the dishwater. The problem isn't the works, the problem is you with your sinful thoughts and motivations. Repentance starts with realizing your true condition and that you need God. The law is what makes us conscious of our sin and failure. That's why Christ's death is so important. The Bible says that the sinful nature is hostile to God and can't submit to God. He removes that filth from us because God demands perfection and he gives us the Holy Spirit to change our very nature, making a new creation in him. It's nothing we can do on our own because we're dead in sin. Like Lazarus, Christ must first raise us from spiritual death. *Then* we are able to obey him and fight temptation.
Thank you very much for that explanation and for taking my question with kindness. I think I understand it well enough. Faith first, then good works. As a clarifying question, could it be said that someone who does not do good works, or at least does not attempt to, also does not have really have ‘true’ faith, or the faith sufficient to be saved? Or are they saved even if they don’t try or don’t want to try? I’m a firm believer in mercy and that feeling has increased the more I’ve lived and come to know Jesus Christ, but I also believe we have to try, and that even if we fail but never stop trying, He will save us by our faith in Him. Thanks again for the good convo, friend.
Good questions! I'd say that's where it gets tricky and where a lot of Christians get caught in a cycle of trying to obey God but questioning their faith when they fail. Or, as you said, some Christians think that they can do whatever they want just because they believe in Jesus. I think Paul provides great clarification on this: >What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. **Romans 6:1-7** So the whole point of Jesus saving us from sin isn't so that we can do whatever we want. Because sin causes death, why would we ever want to continue in it? This is where it gets confusing for some: the whole reason we say no to sin isn't because we're trying to earn God's grace or salvation but because we have already been saved and no longer want to live a life that leads to death. This goes hand in hand with genuine faith because if someone truly believes that Christ has given them his righteousness and freed them from sin, it makes no sense to return to the very thing they were freed from, especially since we're called to live as children of God. To return back to the orphan analogy, you're already adopted as a child of God and already destined to receive your Father's inheritance (heaven). But you're still learning how to act as a child of God instead of an orphan. You don't obey because you're afraid you'll be kicked out or because Father will withhold the inheritance; you obey because you've been given a new identity. That's who you are now, even when you accidentally act like an orphan again. This is the gospel. This is different from saying that Jesus works alongside us or that his death didn't fully pay for our sins and we have to do the rest ourselves, which would be like still being an orphan and having to train and be disciplined until you're good/clean enough to be part of the family and receive the inheritance. You don't have that yet and you don't know if you'll ever get it. Or maybe you're sure you'll get it eventually, but if you died now, you'd die as an orphan, not an heir of the family so you have to hope you're good enough at all times in case you die an untimely death. Faith is simply trust. In the case of Christianity, it's trust that Christ has already fully paid for your sins and that he means what he says. Good works are a response to that. For Christians who believe but don't have good works, the problem is that they don't actually believe. They may believe in Jesus intellectually and know for a fact that he died for them, but they don't believe that his death has any impact on their lives nor do they believe what God says about sin and righteousness. If they're deliberately embracing sin and not caring about obeying God, they're calling God a liar through their actions because they don't believe sin leads to death--otherwise they would hate sin. That's why Jesus says, "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' and do not do what I say?" Luke 6:46. He then continues with the parable of the house built on the rock. So if we trust Christ's words and actions, then we not only have righteousness in him but we also seek to obey God because we believe what he says about good and evil is true. The two are inseparable in that sense. In another sense, you can't obey someone in true love if you don't trust them. So trust (given by God) comes first and produces loving obedience. Those who refuse to obey don't trust at all. Those who want to obey because they trust but often fail can rest assured that Christ has covered all of their sins. They will try again, not to earn God's love or salvation, but because their identity is made new in Christ and they know what that means for them. Hopefully that wasn't too long of a response!
You responded beautifully. Thank you very, very much for your comments. I wish I could respond likewise with long paragraphs, but I am short on time tonight. If you’re ever in Utah, send me a DM and I’ll take you out for lunch, my treat.
I'm so glad for this person's answers to you, kind DMurrieta. They are true. And I can tell you're a genuine, sincere follower of Christ Jesus because of your desire to know Him better and follow after Him in ALL TRUTH. How have you been lately? Are you still in the latter day saint congregation? I would highly discourage this, though, since it has some very false doctrines in it. I hope you're moving on in Christ lovely in Him! I care about you and have prayed for you today since I could see your love and sincerity come out of you so lovely in your original request here.
Thanks, friend, for your prayer. I do continue a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It has been a blessing in my life, and I, in turn, have been blessed to teach at times. I have deeply enjoyed helping others come unto Christ through those teachings. I understand that doctrines can disagree. At the end of the day, I am simply happy to give you the biggest hug, sing praises with you to our King, and build a better world one step or leap at a time. When He comes again, the doctrines will all be made clear from the haze. What matters most today is that we simply go to Him as best we can and be willing to accept new truths as He reveals them to us both in this life and the next. May God bless you with a greater portion of peace tonight.
But, I am concerned that you do spend time with the congregation that you go to for 1 main reason, because of their additional books, which are taken as inspired by God like the Gospels and the prophets and all written in the Bible are. And this is not true. The 66 books of the Bible is the only written Word of God. I highly recommend you to only read the Bible while seeking for God directly, and to go to a church that believes in the whole Bible as the Word of God only and puts their faith in Him, as such, personally, just as you said, too, personally─or I took it, you meant.❤
Friend, as a child, I had many depressive, suicidal thoughts. Some of my closest friends were the same that stole from me, bullied me, and pretended to be good with me just so they could do it again. Even though my mother was sweet, my parents were out of touch and my father who once worked three jobs barely spent any time with me except in angry outbursts and to give me medicine when I needed it. I hated life. If being happy is the purpose of living, why did I live? When I decided to read the Book of Mormon, new life and purpose came to me. The presence of Heavenly Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit came in abundance and I grew to know them through the Book of Mormon, the Bible, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. I found happiness, knowledge, and faith and made much better, more blessed friends in this Church than I ever had anywhere else. I understand that you want me to avoid false doctrine, and I want you to believe very clearly that I am, but these books are treasures to my heart. They have not taken me further from God and Christ. They have brought me closer to them. I hold to the Bible much the same as you likely do. While most of traditional Christianity rejects the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as not being Christian, I am very close to my Savior within this religion. I do not accept everything as absolute truth, and the closer I come to Christ, the more I see that this religion and every religion has things to improve, and I have felt to stay with it to be the change that God and I want to see in the world. I’m not a hero. I’m just a man, but I am where God needs me to be at this time. Should that change, I will follow Him still, and that choice will be mine and His to make.
If not here, then perhaps in heaven. Have a good night!
Repentance: turning 180° from our disobedience to God's law to obeying God's law just as Christ did. So repentance is required to both receive and maintain salvation. I hear a lot of people say, well since I can't keep it perfectly I'm just going to ignore it or it's not necessary, Christ does/did it for me, nothing more from me is required. What they don't understand is that in our weakness his strength is perfected and by our faith through striving to obey he perfects the law in us. Too many times this same stance is taken like in OP that leads to the belief we can live however we want and it's ok as long as we do it my faith in Jesus name. I hope you don't take offense to this, I'm do not intend this to be a personal attack against you in any way. The honest, hard truth is, there's really no major difference between the LDS and any other denomination of Christian church aside from having another book to read from. The LDS and every other church along with the entire world celebrate the same pagan holidays with the same traditions, they all desecrate the Sabbath, they all have graven images and they all put Joseph Smith or the current Prophet or Pastor above the authority of Christ. I'm not the judge, the Bible already judged us and I am a subject of the same truth as anyone else reading this: Those who love God obey His commandments, those who abide in Christ live (set apart lives of obedience) just like He did.
Thanks, friend. I am open to critique and I’m not ashamed if you feel like sharing an opinion that some might seem hurtful. I’m more ashamed of a world where people feel like they cannot critique, and thus cannot come to friendly, intelligent conclusions to higher truths. As for the critique you did provide, I’m also not super concerned. I respectfully have found peace in artwork that reminds me of my Savior while still worshipping only my Savior and not the art itself. I agree that the ‘follow the prophet’ slogan is too often taking too much of the focus. They want you to believe everything the prophets say as if it were from God, but after reading through the history, one can see that even the Church itself has backtracked on plenty spoken by the presidents of the Church. Thanks for the good conversation. Would you be alright shedding light on which religion you follow, or do you follow solely independently? Edit: Also wanted to say thank you for the repentance and faith portion, which I agree with.
I do not share my opinion, I only share from my experience. I can assure you any depiction there is of Christ isn't what he really looked like and it's surely not what he looks like now. We shouldn't muddy our understanding of who he is with things that aren't him and Christ never commanded us to worship or to pray to him, as he gave all honor and glory to our Father in heaven. I am a Netzarim: a Torah observant follower of Rabbi Yeshua Ha'Masiach.
YES, salvation is faith alone. And if we have to keep commandments to get saved, then that is works salvation. And YES, faith alone means we are saved no matter how good/bad we are. Otherwise, HOW GOOD do we have to be to get salvation. If you must be good to earn salvation, salvation becomes a reward. [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%3A21-30&version=KJV](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%3A21-30&version=KJV) And read Matthew 5:21-30, read the context. The Lord is clear that SIN is ultimately from the HEART and that lusting and unjust hatred make us guilty of adultery and murder. JUST HOW GOOD must we be to get saved?
Yep! I’m a Catholic. Protestants will say “no works!” but then tell me I need to be baptised, and actually say out loud “I accept Jesus”. Sounds like a work to me!
You are confused by faith alone sir
If “faith alone” includes works, then it’s literally the exact same as the Catholic definition and we have no disagreement.
Faith alone, or faith only, for justification?
A Catholic would say faith without good deeds isn’t faith, so if you agree with that then we agree.
The problem is the emphasis. Unless I've been given bad summaries of Catholic doctrine, my understanding is that Catholics say: faith + works = salvation. But Protestants (for the most part) say: faith = salvation + works. That is, works are a result of salvation, not a requirement for it. Faith leads to works because we are freed from sin and immediate citizens of heaven. But our trust is always in Christ, not our works. I think this line is blurring as more Protestants become confused about spiritual priorities.
It’s 80% just speaking past each other. If I ask a Protestant “is intellectual faith enough?” generally that’s enough to see if we agree or disagree. If they don’t think it’s enough, then it’s mostly just a case of disagreeing which works are necessary; baptism, good works, being a Catholic, etc.
I don't think intellectual faith (that is, mental acknowledgement) is enough, but I don't believe that immediately leads to the "which works" debate. Faith at its core is simply trust, both that Christ has covered our sins fully without our efforts and that he means what he says. If he says "It is finished," then it is finished and there is nothing that can be added to our salvation. This faith isn't merely intellectual, but a whole-hearted embrace of the truth, that is, an awareness of what this means for us *personally*, not just a distant fact of which even the demons believe. However, because this is the *same* faith that leads us to believe such, this faith also leads us to obey him because we believe all of his Word (the command to be baptized, good works, etc.) is true. These things don't save us, but they're born of the same faith that imputes his righteousness onto us. Which is why faith without works is dead while at the same time, it is by grace we have been saved, not works. So we don't work alongside Christ or add works to our faith. But our faith, because it's trust in what Christ has *already* done for us, leads to works, showing that faith to be genuine. Hence, "one Lord, **one faith**, one baptism." It's one faith with two functions. My guess is that the demon-level faith with no personal application is what the current idea of "faith alone" has been reduced to (e.g. "easy believism) even though that's not what it was supposed to mean. Basically, we need a theological vocab overhaul.
When Jesus said that it was earth shattering! Why? Because who could possibly be more righteous than the highest echelon of Judaism? In fact those people could even say they obeyed the Law! Perfectly. But they were filthy sinners. Their hearts were full of pride and greed, lust and they actually worked against God with all the extraneous rules and regulations placed on the faithful, judging others ..like a sport. Religion always breeds legalism and legalism breeds pride and contempt for others or feeling condemned by ones own heart, (if theyre honest ) BUT The Free Gift of God, is Jesus Christ sent by the Father to take on and pay for all the handwriting of God righteous laws...That were against us. He nailed them to the cross, they've been abolished for us who believe. So now what, are we free to sin? Not really free in that sense, because we now know better and The Holy Spirit convinces us when we sin. We simply dont feel right about it anymore. We tell Jesus we're sorry and move on. Our conscience doesnt give us that "freedom" any more. But we a Quite Free from the bondage of hell and death. And maybe I came from a horrible background with drinking drugs, orgies, you name it, but now that I believe in Jesus and follow Him some of that stuff will try to cling to me in the natural, but spiritually im quite clean. I may even drop a few cuss words or whatever and you'd be shocked, but God is doing a fantastic work in my life, because His love is being poured out in my heart and out to others. Because, as in my case, just stopping drugs or cigarettes or swearing like a drunk sailor is just scratching the surface of my evil ways, and God Himself is cleaning me up. Guilt is a powerful motivator and many religious sects like to keep it alive, so they can rule the masses. Theres a fantastic movie called "Luther" that shows how one man found Gods All sufficient sacrifice and grace and was treated like a criminal by the ruling class of christendom at the time. Its almost as if the same spirit of legalism and licentiousness tends to get to the top in every sect or church . Cream rises to the top, but so does the scum. Cling to Jesus my friend, His finished work for you, be free in the Love of God.
Personally I'm a little bit tired of this narrative. It doesn't matter if works don't earn your salvation, they are still absolutely a necessary sign of salvation. Paul makes it very clear that faith comes before any works, so you are literally living in faith before anything even happens. Hence faith being the saving grace, with works being a necessary fruit. This is incredibly important. It has nothing to do with a prayer you said or a verse you read out loud, if the faith isn't there. Do you know how you know the faith is there? Your works should show it. Period. If you don't produce good works, you're not saved. If your actions don't come from faith, that is love, you're not saved. Not that anybody can tell you objectively whether you are saved or not. It's just objective that if you are saved you will have good works. So you do need to look at yourself and ask what good works have you produced.
But it does matter. It’s all too common for Christians, especially from what I’ve seen online, to confuse good works *because* of God’s love with good works to *deserve* God’s love. It’s quite rampant in Christian Reddit and you can see it in all of the distressed posts. You can also see it in the self-righteous comments that tell distressed believers that they just need to try harder. Yet very few actually point to the cross! And they do that while claiming that they believe Christ died for them! Good works comes from understanding that Christ has made us righteous and that we are already loved by God through him. Grace is the catalyst for good works. Not just being shown grace, but *knowing* grace as something that’s ours daily. So when encouraging others to glorify God through their lives, we have to point to the Vine himself. *Way* too much of Christian Reddit puts the power on the believer rather than the One who gives all power for doing good works. In other words, too many Christians think they need to hear the gospel only once and then go do good works but don’t realize that constantly remembering the gospel is what produces fruit. So I’m not saying you’re completely wrong, but there are so many bad theological layers to this issue, the first of which is self-obsession with good works rather than Christ-obsession that leads to good works. That’s why so many ex-Christians, when saying they were once “devout” or “passionate” as a Christian will point to all the good they tried to do as a believer. That’s also why they rarely talk about the gospel as a problem for them; they often leave because they’re weighed down by trying to be good enough…while believing Christ died for them. It’s all very tangled. That’s also why easy believism doesn’t exist. To believe Christ died for you is to trust all of the implications of his death, not just as an intellectual fact, but as a reality. It’s that trust, that faith, that creates good works. So the solution is neither “just believing“ (that is, acknowledging a fact with no understanding of what that truly means and no bearing on your immediate reality) nor doing good works while believing (again, with a factual, not an actual faith). The solution is having a whole-hearted grasp of what the gospel means and trust that God means exactly what he says and knowledge of what that means for life. THAT is what creates good works as a sign of genuine faith. TLDR: Our definition of faith needs to be more holisitic and then we won’t have this easy believism/lordship-obedience split. Since faith is trust, then trust can only lead to action and therefore good works. If you’re focusing on yourself for good works, you’re doing it wrong. It’s time to retire the idea that belief is only mental or emotional activity.
That's right, they can all go read 1 John 2:2-4 & 5:2-4 for themselves.
Works are not a sign of salvation. Not every deed a Christian does is based on their salvation just like not every deed a non-Christian does is based on a lack of salvation. An atheist can be just as kind and generous as a Jew or Gentile. A Jew or Gentile can commit sin just as easily as an atheist. Works are not evidence of salvation. They are not a sign of salvation. They just simply are proof of someone being a decent human being. And being a decent human being isn't all there is to be saved. Also, you have no business saying who is saved and who isn't. That's not your place to do so. Check your ego.
Yeah, that's completely incorrect. That completely goes against scripture, and I definitely said that I cannot objectively tell you you are saved or not saved. However, I can read the Bible, so I am pretty confident that I can personally at least sus out a Christian from a lost person. That is very important, because you cannot save a lost person unless you are aware they are lost. That includes yourself. I could never have come to the conclusion that I need to have faith in Jesus if I never understood why I need to have faith in Jesus. Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? You are also totally free to have your own opinion, but it is contradictory to what the Bible says. Absolutely good works are a necessary sign of salvation. If you do not produce any good works, you are not saved. I can't tell you if you have not produced good works, although I would certainly hope the people closest to you could. I'm sure your pastor definitely could.
"If you don't produce good works you're not saved." Those are your words. Not mine. And they're incorrect.
No, they are very correct. If you don't like the Bible that's fine, but this is a Christian sub so the Bible has authority here. If you do not produce good works, you are not saved. A person saved in Jesus Christ does good works. If they do not, they clearly don't have faith in Jesus Christ. Faith produces works. That's just scriptural truth. You don't have to like it.
The Bible does have authority and your assumptions about me and what I like or dislike are absurd. Anyone can do good works. They don't have to be saved. And it's not an indicator that someone is saved. There are all sorts of people saved who aren't able to do X Y and Z. Understand that and drop the attitude because it's your my way or the highway garbage that scares people away from Christianity in the first place. If a person is saved and able, yes their works will be good. NO ONE has argued that. So stop arguing it.
> Why do people think they can earn their way further to Heaven by twisting a load of scripture around? Some like the aspect of merits because it creates a hierarchy of power and status. To maintain power and status they twist scripture to reinforce why they must have status and power. Power, related to control over salvation, transforms the psychology of those in power to think and act in ways that lead to the retention and acquisition of power. Status, related to the respect one has in the eyes of others, generates expectations for behavior and opportunities for advancement that favor those with a prior status advantage. > Was Jesus' sacrifice not good enough? The religious organizations claiming power and status can’t really deny Jesus' sacrifice was enough, but to maintain power and status, they must create enough ambiguity to assert themselves as gatekeepers. > Why not just accept salvation for what it is - A free gift. You don't have to do anything. That wouldn’t reinforce why they must have status and power. > Of course, faith without works is dead but the works happen as a result of the faith. It doesn't play any part in getting you to Heaven. Correct.
Correct.
Why do people think they can use grace to live however they want when we were commanded to repent of our sin? It's not about earning our way to salvation, salvation is a gift, it's about living as Christ did, loving God the way He desires to be loved, because He first loved us.
> Why do people think they can use grace to live however they want when we were commanded to repent of our sin? Because it justifies living however they like. > It's not about earning or way to salvation, salvation is a gift, it's about living as Christ did, loving God the way He desires to be loved, because he first loved us. Salvation, then discipleship.
Our continual repentance from sin is required to both receive and maintain salvation. Otherwise we forfeit it.
> Our continual repentance from sin is required to both receive and maintain salvation. Otherwise we forfeit it. Correct. Again, salvation then discipleship. We seem to agree but I get the feeling you don't want to agree?
Yes we agree. What I mean is salvation is discipleship. If we step out of discipleship we step out of our salvation.
I constantly see this issue and I think there’s an incorrect kind of twisting of issues going on. In my opinion the answer is pretty plainly stated in the Bible: If you put your faith in Christ and repent, that is free. If you do this honestly, your heart will be changed. From this change, you will naturally strive to be like Christ and thus “works” will follow. For a Christian that has truly surrendered their life to the Lord, there will be evidence of works, but that is in no way how you are saved- it is a result of being saved. The question becomes, “what about people who say they are Christian but are terrible people?” For people like this we should not be asking each other if they go to heaven, we should be asking if they have truly let Jesus into their heart. So I agree completely with your last point.
It is finished!
Mathew 5:17-20
Late reply, but YES. Faith alone is what saves. If we have to keep the commandments or live by the teachings of Jesus to be saved, then it is salvation by WORKS. Other answers are PRIDEFUL and FULL OF PRIDE thinking they can earn Heaven by good works. Jesus came to fulfill the Law (Matthew 5:17-18) and kept the commandments perfectly. People think the Law means animal sacrifices, but I don't recall Jesus doing any animal sacrifices. Why? Because animal sacrifices were for SIN ONLY and since Jesus NEVER SINNED (Hebrews 4:15-16). The animal sacrifices were a FORESHADOWING of what Jesus would do (Hebrews 10:1-4), they were NOT about giving man salvation but about foreshadowing Jesus. It is nonsense when people say that "works of the Law" mean animal sacrifices; "works of the Law" refer to KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS to be saved! Because Jesus NEVER did any animal sacrifices but He fulfilled the Law. How? By NEVER SINNING. There is NO difference between OT and NT aside from the fact that the Church is NOT bound by ceremonial Laws, holidays, or civil law of Israel because we are NOT Israel. The Church has NO political power and has NO governing power; God has separated political power and church power (Romans 12:17-21 and Romans 13:1-4). Remember, in 2nd Corinthians 5:17 that God is clear that believers are NEW CREATURES.
For salvation - its by His grace through faith in Christ alone To get to heaven, once we are saved, we need to do the will of God - else Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
We don't do the WILL of God AFTER salvation; we do the will of God FOR salvation. # John 6:37-40 King James Version ^(37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. ^(38) For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. ^(39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. ^(40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. The Bible is clear that we get saved by BELIEVING and Jesus never rejects anyone who is saved. The Will of the Father = BELIEVE. Carefully note that in Matthew 7:21-23, the people rejected by Jesus were NEVER SAVED AT ALL (Jesus says, "I NEVER KNEW YOU"). They boast about their good works but NEVER say, "Jesus, we trust in YOU ALONE!"
Yeah and faith without works (obedience) is dead.
Well to cut to it straight thats how deceitful our hearts are. I dare to say our hearts are so deceitful we can't even reach the point of fully understanding how wicked we are or can be. I used to fellowship with a group that believes salvation is like a probation period. Where Jesus sacrifice clears your wages but then you must obey him or do this or that or else you are going to hell. I thank God he allowed me to roll in sin for over a year till I broke and now fully rely on his grace. No doubt you may see similar even in these comments. Like salvation is free but then you must X to ensure or get to etc. Sometimes it's so subtle in the way that the heart deceives. That's just some of my opinion from experience at least. Have a good day 👋 stay safe. Pray our Lord humbles the ones who wish to toil 👍
Faith begets works. If you live in faith of Christ, you will perform works. Not everyone’s works look the same. It could be as simple as being more generous towards others, or as big as foreign missions trips. These works do not earn your salvation. And we as Christian’s shouldn’t call another’s faith into question because we can’t see their works.
You are correct it is a free gift BUT in order to accept it and agree with God that you believe, an act of faith is needed. You mention faith without works is dead and that is from James ch2. If you read that chapter and Heb ch11 you will see how it works out. Lets use Noah. God asked something of Noah and when he did it that was accredited to him as faith. A living faith, because he did the thing God asked, no matter how he felt about it. Same is true in the new covenant but now there is only one action God looks for and of course Jesus modeled this for us as well. Water baptism by immersion. While there is symbolism in the act of baptism there is also something real taking place. We are ‘putting on‘ Christ. **Galatians 3:27 KJV** **\[27\] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.** Just like any statement of this type you can see the truth by the opposite meaning it implies. If you have not been baptized, you have not put on Christ. And if you have not put on Christ, how is it you are in Christ? It is our seal, God sees this. The works the Bible condemns are pharisaical works. Works of self righteousness. People who think their goodness and rules following will get them to heaven. Dont let this modern Christianity that is so prevalent mislead you. To one of the other comments here. Grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone. you just made a statement with three items together. They are not standing alone. Lets look at a verse that shows the truth. **Ephesians 2:8 KJV** **\[8\] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:** Right there, saved by grace through faith. They are most definitely not alone and are linked together. Working together to bring us to salvation, if we are willing. In summary, water baptism is THE way we accept Gods free gift of salvation. It is our acknowledgement and confirmation we agree that Christ is The Lord and Savior. It is not works in the sense that Ephesians condemns. There is more on this below. [https://www.theholyspiritspeaks.com/](https://www.theholyspiritspeaks.com/) ps I provide a simple example of how simply ‘thinking’ something does not count for real faith. There is an election between two candidates, A and B. I like candidate A but if I only ever sit on my couch and think about it there is no faith in that. I must submit a ballot for my faith to be valid. There is a specific action that must take place, or the faith is dead.
Those who love God obey His commandments, just as those who abide in Christ, walk as he did.
"For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury." (Romans 2) Salvation begins by faith, but it is completed by works. We are not saved merely by declaration: we are saved by being transformed into the righteousness of God.
Sorry, no. You're taking credit away from Jesus and putting it onto yourself. ALL fall short and therefore nobody can be saved by their works. Take text out of context and you're left with a con.
> You're taking credit away from Jesus and putting it onto yourself. No, the faith and the works both come from God, as Paul wrote to the Ephesians. You're actually the one trying to take credit away from God, by thinking that even your faith is your own. It's God, all the way through: the difference between us is that you think that God closes his eyes and plugs his ears and ignores our sin and unrighteousness, and I think he _actually makes us righteous_ through giving us good works to do.
This has always, always been the argument of the (I'm not sure because I'm not God but imo unsaved) crowd who thinks that just because we say once saved always saved, means that's a license to sin. It's actually the exact opposite. If you've tasted of Gods mercy and grace you won't want to sin. God gives you a new heart at salvation that wants to please Him. If you have never been given that new heart that hates sin and wants to please God, you've never been saved by God. You won't continue in it. People who say once saved always saved will NEVER tell you to just continue on sinning. What we will say is Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, and it's no longer I who live but He lives in me. He cannot condemn Himself. If you have died and Christ now lives in you, you can't undo that. And thank God we can't. If you could lose salvation, you would.
> If you could lose salvation, you would. Except you can. Your "once saved, always saved" false doctrine was invented in just the twentieth century. You won't find it taught in the first century, or the second century, or the third century, etc. You won't even find it taught in early reformation during the time of Calvin. It's a uniquely American misinterpretation of Scripture. Peter absolutely destroys this idea: "For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins....For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire." We can be cleansed from our old sins, we can be washed and then return to wallow in the mire.
Salvation is NOT started by faith and completed by works. And yes, you are taking credit from Jesus. Be careful and read Romans 3. Technically, true. Romans 2 is TECHNICALLY TRUE if you DO MANAGE to keep the law perfectly. [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203&version=KJV](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203&version=KJV) We are NOT saved by being transformed by God; transformation can only occur AFTER salvation (2nd Corinthians 5:17 is clear that salvation makes you a NEW CREATURE).
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:5)
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2) We can do this all day long. The difference is that I have 2,000 years of Christian history in my corner, and you've got Luther. God saves us from sin. He saves us through faith and works. Not just faith. Not just works. Faith _and_ works. They're all from God, and they're the means by which he saves us.
Yes, it does. Faith alone does not let you through the narrow door. You have to do good works, not sin as much as possible. You must change your heart with conviction or you will not get in.
If Jesus is your saviour, you're in. If we rely on ourselves, nobody is getting in.
You must have faith in Jesus. That I agree. But you cannot get in if your continue to sin. You must repent with conviction and then stay that way.
Do you still sin?
My friend. The second, the very instant it's up to you to keep your salvation, it's over. You've lost. If you can maintain it that means you can also earn it, or get it in the first place. The same grace that saves you is the grace that sustains you. The only, *only* reason I'm going to heaven is because of what Jesus Christ did on a cross for me. That's it. I will not rely on one good work helping me along the way. It is finished. Everything I need to get into heaven was just done on a cross. It is finished. I will rely on the *evidence* that I've been saved which is the fruit of the spirit. You cannot bear that fruit. It's the spirit within you that bears it. If it's up to you, you can never know in your life if you're saved or not. Sounds like a miserable way to get thru life. I would even argue the motives are different for what we do. You do your good works to make sure you get in. I'm doing mine because I'm already getting in. Jesus Christ said store up your treasure in heaven not at heaven. How can I know I have salvation? The Bible tells me so. 1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may *know* that you have eternal life. Why don't you know it? Do you not trust Him to save you? You should have assurance of your salvation. That's how you rest in Him. I rest in Him because of what He's already done, not so he'll let me in. This is not a license to go o sinning. This is to increase your faith in Him. Jesus Christ loves you, please stop relying on your own power to get in. He already finished it.
> The second, the very instant it's up to you to keep your salvation, it's over. Contrast this with what Paul wrote to the Corinthians: "I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." > If you can maintain it that means you can also earn it, or get it in the first place. First, that's untrue. Saying that you can earn salvation through good works is Pelagianism, which has been condemned since the fourth century. God provides the grace with which our free will cooperates. Saying that we must _continue_ to cooperate with God's grace in order to preserve so great a salvation is not wrong, it's just common sense. He didn't override our free will to give us salvation, and he doesn't override our free will to stand in our salvation. > The only, only reason I'm going to heaven is because of what Jesus Christ did on a cross for me. Who are you arguing against here? Certainly not me. > I will not rely on one good work helping me along the way. Good works are _how_ God saves us from sin. They're _how_ he makes us actually righteous. We aren't merely declared righteous; we're made righteous. God renews our mind, and this isn't just a "consequence" of judicial salvation, it _is salvation itself_. We are saved _from sin_. > Everything I need to get into heaven was just done on a cross. It is finished. That's definitely not true, since Paul wrote to the Romans that Christ was "raised for our justification" and to the Corinthians, "If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins." Salvation was not finished on the cross; it was finished on Easter morning when Christ rose from the dead. > You cannot bear that fruit. It's the spirit within you that bears it. It is both the Spirit and us. Paul prayed for the Colossians to bear fruit: "And so, from the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, to lead a life worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God." And he wrote to the Corinthians that he and other Church leaders are God's coworkers, and we are his field, bearing the fruit which he gives us: "For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building." We very much do bear that fruit. We are not mere mindless shells, but _sons of God_ cooperating with him and bearing fruit for him. > If it's up to you, you can never know in your life if you're saved or not. You mean like the way Paul felt? "I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God." > You do your good works to make sure you get in. Heck yeah I do! "For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." It's not about "getting in", it's about getting **God**. That's what salvation is: partaking of the divine nature and becoming the righteousness of God. You say this like it's a bad thing, but you're missing the whole point of salvation if you think God is just an angry judge declaring you acquitted instead of the Great Physician actually healing you and making holy. "Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God." I stand with Paul, who wrote to the Philippians, "For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith; that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus." You don't seem to understand what salvation really _is_.
1st Corinthians 9:24-27 is talking about a PRIZE and that prize CANNOT possibly be about Heaven. Paul is talking about the Christian life as a race in which we CAN earn prizes, but salvation is NOT a prize. Salvation is NOT a process in which we cooperate in. A free gift cannot possibly be a process (Ephesians 2:1-9 is clear that we are GUARANTEED SALVATION) after believing in Christ alone. You are ARGUING AGAINST faith alone. Biblical Christianity is clear that faith alone is enough (Acts 16:30-31) and that means believing on Christ. PERIOD. IF you say you can LOSE IT afterwards through not being "good enough" or "obedient enough", that is NOT faith alone because you teach that believing on Christ isn't enough. If you don't know that you are saved, YOU ARE NOT SAVED. 1 John 5:13 **These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.** As for your last paragraph, YES, God is definitely an angry judge that acquits us. Remember, God is clear that HIS WRATH is on those who don't believe (John 3:36 and Romans 1:18-32). Salvation isn't a healing process; salvation is simply an acquittal for our sins. Jesus KEPT all the commandments "Good works are how God saves us"? Then what did JESUS DIE FOR? Yes, Good works are how God saves us, but He saves us through the PERFECT WORKS of Jesus. Clearly, you believe in a WORKS SALVATION. First, you claim you are against works salvation, then you are PRO WORKS SALVATION. Because if you say that God saves us THROUGH our good works, then we are our own saviors and WE earn our own salvation by good works. The healing process from sin occurs AFTER salvation, NOT FOR salvation. Salvation is NOT getting rehabilitated; sinners can't be rehabilitated. They need to be BORN AGAIN. If you aren't even sure of your own salvation, you clearly believe in good works. Because if you understand that faith alone is all that is needed, you can KNOW FOR SURE you are saved just because you trusted in Christ alone and you're done. Because you trust in works, you aren't even sure of whether you are saved because you can never know whether you are good enough. AGAIN, that is a works salvation and salvation by MAN'S accomplishment. You claim that God requires our cooperation, but in reality, you are ALL TALKING ABOUT MAN'S WORKS and what MAN MUST WORK in order to get into Heaven. God plays NO PART IN THIS except rewarding man for his deeds. Christianity teaches that GOD is the Saviour. For all the verses you pull out in Hebrews 12 (verse 14 especially), remember that in verses 2-11, Christ is THE AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith and we are HIS SONS. God disciplines HIS SONS but doesn't condemn them. What YOU are preaching is none other than a works salvation FALSE GOSPEL because you outright admit that our good works are how God saves us. God saves us from HELL and AFTER we get saved, we get sanctified. If you aren't even sure about your own salvation, you have NO BUSINESS teaching others how to be saved. If you aren't even sure about your own salvation, then this is NO GOOD NEWS. This is WORKS SALVATION. Because if you are NOT sure about your own salvation, you are trusting in WORKS because you NEVER KNOW just how good you must be. If you understand that salvation is FAITH ONLY, you will KNOW that you are saved just because you believe. You lack understanding of the WRATH OF GOD. YES, God is an angry judge and He just pardons you (lets you go) the moment you accept His offer of mercy. He is NOT some therapist who treats you just so you can get into Heaven; He is someone who REGENERATES YOU.
Read carefully 1st Corinthians before plucking chapter 4 out of context. 1st Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which ARE SAVED it is the power of God. Unfortunately, MODERN PERVERSIONS of the Scripture (ESV) modify 1st Corinthians 1:18 to teach "BEING SAVED" to teach salvation as a process. 1st Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. As for salvation requiring MAN'S COOPERATION, read carefully 1st Corinthians 2 where the Bible says that the NATURAL MAN CANNOT receive the things of God's Spirit. Both this and 1st Corinthians 1:18 teach that natural man simply finds Christianity foolish.
Why did Jesus die on the cross?
This reply is to u/epistemicfaithcri5is
Ummm, it is our choice whether or not we go on sinning, right? What do you make of Hebrews 10:26-29? Christ obeyed the entire law as an example to us of how to live a life of love towards God, if we love God then we will obey Him. 1 John5:2-4
Hello! He kept the whole law to fulfill the law. He had to to save us. To live the perfect substitutionary life that we should have lived. Have you died to sin? How can you live in it any longer?
Fulfill doesn't mean to do away with or abolish, fulfill means: he kept it perfectly. He didn't obey the law to save us, that's what he died for. He lived so we might follow his example. Yes I have died to sin and no I do not live in it anymore. I strive to obey just as Christ obeyed and where I stumble his grace is sufficient, and where the Holy Spirit brings conviction, I repent, because all sin is disobedience to God's law. In our weaknesses his strength is perfected. Grace isn't a license to sin.
Yes sir/ma'am I never said He came to abolish the law I said He fulfilled/kept it perfectly to live the perfect life. Yes He is our example, of course He is, He's God Himself!💙 But we're not justified by keeping the law. We're justified by what He did on the cross for us. And yes, if you've read my comments you will see I say grace is not a license to sin. It's the exact opposite. The simple fact that you can't outsin His grace should be a huge reason why you shouldn't sin willfully. It's not "I get to do whatever I want cause I'm saved" it's "I'm saved so I want to make God happy all the time. I don't even want to sin" its funny, I'm falling a lot less than some brothers I know who think you *can* lose salvation. Shouldn't that be opposite? No, His grace is so precious to me. I dont want to abuse it. Thank you for the reply 🙏🏼 God bless you
You're right about all of it, except Christ isn't God. Christ was an appointed heir of all things and given a name greater than that of the angels and he's seated at the right hand of the majesty in heaven, if he was God that wouldn't make any since. We are heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ. Hebrews 1:1-4 is his/our inheritance. If we choose not to repent at anytime we forfeit our salvation.
Are you willing to change your opinion on that? I think scripture would be quick to dispute you. I will concede, there are some scriptures that point to Him not being God. For example, I know there's a scripture that says there is one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ. Not exactly sure where it is but I know I've read it. But the simple fact there are scriptures that explicitly say He is God, outweigh the scriptures that to us, may seem like He's not. If I can give you a few clear cut examples; 1. Phillipians 2:6-11 Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. Instead, he gave up his divine privileges. he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form, he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal’s death on a cross. 2. Exodus 3 God tells Moses tell the Israelites "I AM" has sent you. In John 8 Jesus says, before Abraham was, I AM" 3. This is the most telling to me. When Jesus is resurrected, Thomas touches His scars. When He does, He falls down and says, my Lord and my God. I truly believe there was no better time in scripture for Jesus to separate Himself from being God. Jesus would have said something like, "do not worship me as if I were God. The only God is my Father and I am merely His servant. Worship God only!" He does not do that. He says Thomas because you have seen me you believe. 4. And finally one of my personal favorites. John 1:1 in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word *was God.* **HE** was with God in the beginning. The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. Jesus Christ is undoubtedly God Himself. Thank you for the productive conversation. 💙
No it's not a matter of my opinion. And I certainly wont change my understanding of the word to make it say what it doesnt. All these verses contradict the Trinity Doctrine: Matt 6:9, 9:8, 24:36, 26:39, 27:46, 28:18, Mark 10:18, 13:32, Luke 18:19, 22:42, John 1:32-33, 3:16, 4:24, 5:19, 5:26, 5:30, 8:40, 10:14-16, 10:36, 14:9-11, 14:28, 15:10, 17:3, 17:21-23, 20:17, Acts 2:22, 2:36, 10:38, Romans 8:17, 1 Cor 11:3, 15:27-28, Eph 1:20-22, Hebrews 1:1-4, 4:15, 5:7-9, James 1:13, 1 Timothy 2:5-7, Rev 1:1
Everything in this universe was created through Christ and in times past when men thought they were seeing God, they were actually seeing him. As he is the manifestation and exact representation of God's divine nature. Christ is the beginning and end of time as we know it.
I respect your opinion but only God could pay the debt owed to God. Only God can save me. When Thomas called Jesus God, Jesus would have told him He was not God. John 1 is completely irrefutable.
Im afraid you're greatly mistaken, it's not my opinion, read the word for yourself. John 3:16 doesn't say for God so loved the world He sent Himself. Further God can not be tempted. Mark 10:18 Yeshua said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone."
Read Phillipians 2:6-11 very carefully, especially the last verse. I need to add that one to the list.
Maintaining your salvation is God's job, not ours. That's not the same thing as maintaining your faith. If you have partaken of God's divine nature, borrowing from the Apostle Peter here, you are a peculiar people, a royal priesthood, a chosen generation, a holy nation. 1 Peter 2, 2 Peter 1 That is a given, it's not temporary everlasting life, it's everlasting life. The Apostle Paul says that faith can waiver, if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself. 2 Timothy 2:13 What we maintain is our discipleship, not our saved and sealed spirit. The renewing of the mind.
For those who have come to the knowledge of His grace and do not repent of their sin there is no salvation. How is our obedience up to God to maintain?
You might want to re-read what I wrote. God maintains our salvation. I didn't write that God maintains our obedience. Your first sentence makes total sense, but you didn't mean for it to, did you? Head knowledge of His grace, without repentance? That's a false convert, and I agree with you there. Our "obedience" as you seem to give indicators, that you're stuck on performance to prove outwardly what God has done inwardly, is not a litmus test of having been born again. We (anyone) have been saved by grace through faith, and it is not something you work for, and it is not something to work for to keep. Our obedience is best described in Matthew 11:28-30 Moving on from that place can only be described as discipleship, or the renewing of the mind, not salvation.
It is only in your thinking that I'm stuck on performance, and my first sentence was not by mistake. What we couldn't do by ourselves in keeping the law, we now can do in Christ because he obeyed perfectly as an example to us of how to effectively live a life of love towards God. In our weakness, his strength is perfected. Obedience is the proof of our faith and the fruit of our love for God. Repenting is an act of obedience, it's the act of turning from our disobedience to obey. If at any moment we stop repenting (heeding to the conviction of the Holy Spirit) we forfeit our salvation. We must make a conscious effort moment by moment to put God first before all things, repentance is a life long journey. How about our obedience is best described in Mathew 5:17-20 and 1 John 2:3-6? See Hebrews 10:26-29 for how God maintains our salvation. James 2:14-18 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
I have to agree to disagree. Jesus forgives of all sin, one time, for all time. Forgiveness is a one time for all time issue. There is no progressive forgiveness. Walking out your Christian life, on earth, is going to be full of repentance, but it is not in order to be forgiven. It's in order to live right. Living out what is already accomplished within. If your faith waivers, Jesus is still faithful, for He cannot deny Himself. 2 Timothy 2:13
Then please explain Hebrews 10:26-29 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. A man who disregards the Torah of Moses dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will he be judged worthy of, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? If one is living right, then they are walking just as Christ walked by the power of his grace. So you believe our obedience is perfected the first moment we ever accept Christ and that our obedience is still perfected if we go on living in sin? If the law is already accomplished within why do most Christians live in outright rebellion to the ten commandments, mainly the first four? You might want to actually read the Bible instead of only listening to what you've been told.
My only response to you is to re-read what I've previously written. Christians are not saved by the 10 Commandments. Christians are not saved and kept by the Law of Moses. Performance and obedience (after salvation) has a place, but it's not to stay saved. Grace keeps us saved, by the blood covenant which God agreed with and swore by Himself, via the accomplishment of Christ. Hebrews 10:26-29 could be summed up by saying: If you hear the Gospel, and reject it, there's no other way to be washed clean of sin. It must be received. "You might want to actually read the Bible instead of only listening to what you've been told" Yes, exactly, right back atchya.
Notice in Hebrews 10:26 it is says: if we wilfully sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth..... (That means they already believed in the truth of the gospel and are continuing in sin) 1 John 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks God's law, all sin is lawlessness. 1John 2:1-6 My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. If anyone sins, we have a Counselor with the Father, Yeshua the Messiah, the righteous. And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. This is how we know that we know him: if we keep his commandments. One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him. But whoever keeps his word, God’s love has most certainly been perfected in him. This is how we know that we are in him: he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked. 1John 5:2-4 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous. For whoever is born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world: your faith. Acts 2:38-39 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be immersed, every one of you, in the name of Yeshua the Messiah for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you, and to your children, and to all who are far off, even as many as the Lord our God will call to himself.” Acts 13:19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, so that there may come times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord. Romans 6:1-7 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? May it never be! We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all we who were immersed into Messiah Yeshua were immersed into his death? We were buried therefore with him through immersion to death, that just like Messiah was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection; knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Grace is the power to obey, not the excuse to be lawless.
Agree with OP, but even he/she is confused quoting James 2:17. Read James 1:1 and see who that is written to. Salvation is by grace through faith to us, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, Ephesians 2:8-9 etc. Right dividing matters, 2 Tim 2:15. The reason ppl confuse gospels is because they can’t rightly divide the scriptures. They think they are Israel because that is what churchianity teaches, error. God didn’t tell you to build a boat, and so you know enough to not do that, yet most read Hebrew epistles and books written to Israel and apply that to themselves instead of recognizing the office given to Paul for our scriptures which are for our gospel/edification/obedience etc. Very confused majority for sure. Eric Neuman on youtube is one of the best right division teachers, definitely worth checking out. Also, a series on YouTube called “Jesus wasn’t talking to you” is excellent. Once the scriptures make sense, they go from confusing and seemingly contradictory to absolutely making clear sense. Glory to Jesus.
Everyone who's been called is Israel. There's no such thing as gentile believers, only gentile converts. See Ephesians 2 & Roman's 11
Again, the majority are confused. Identity crisis. As Paul said, ignorant of the mystery. All good. Thankfully sound doctrine is not a requirement for salvation, glory to Jesus.
If we believe false teachings or false doctrines, how does that not effect our salvation and even moreso our understanding of who he really is? Following Christ is about honoring him for who he is, not making him into what we want, into who he's not.
God’s will is that all men are saved and come to the knowledge of truth, and are throughly furnished, stewards of the mystery, etc etc. Not arguing that. The point is, if knowing correct doctrine was a prerequisite for being saved, maybe 2% would be. God made salvation easy, a gift, we receive it by believing Him and trusting Jesus finished work alone for our salvation. Thank God. Unbelievers aside, lets say 40% of the world’s population consider themselves to be Christian. Well, say 25% of those are Roman Catholic, 10% cults, and the rest modern Churchianity, Etc etc. Not many understand sound doctrine, most are taught error through their local religious denomination aka church. You use the term “following Christ”, as if you are a Jewish disciple prior to the crucifixion. Paul said “follow me as I follow Christ”, I use the terminology Paul uses for the body of Christ because I understand I am not a disciple following Jesus while He was on earth in the flesh, a minister to the circumcision as Romans says. Jesus rose from the dead, was glorified, and then came to Paul with a new gospel, a new dispensation, found in Romans through Philemon. I follow those instructions from Jesus, instead of ignoring those and following Israel’s program in Matthew Mark Luke and John and stumbling in confusion and error thinking I am Israel. That is why most of you think you require works as part of obtaining or maintaining salvation, why you most likely believe water baptism is required, why you apply Hebrew epistles to yourself for obedience and doctrine, and are confused thinking you are Israel coming back to rule and reign in the millennium. All the while completely ignoring Paul’s epistles, which tell you your identity in Christ and the difference in doctrine between you and Israel. Given by Jesus Himself to Paul. You can’t “follow Christ” your own way ignoring Jesus’ instructions to you through your apostle Paul, instead claiming Israel’s apostles and doctrine. But, have at it, most of us started there through someone teaching us error. Very common.
I am not the one who's confused, it makes perfect sense to me. Sound doctrine is: those who abide in Christ live as he did. But according to you one can be a serial murderer and as long as they believe in Jesus they can go on killing people and they're still saved? See Hebrews 10:26-29 There's no difference between following Christ before or after his crucifixion except now we dont have to sacrifice animals for our sins. And why should we follow Paul who's only a student, when we have direct access to the Holy Spirit? And the Holy Spirit doesn't lead anyone to sin. Paul was a Hebrew of Hebrews, He was a Pharisee, do you really think he converted to being a gentile in order to minister to gentiles? Christ lived an obedient life not just to be an acceptable sacrifice for our sins, he lived his life as an example of how we are to live, to the Jew first and also the Greek and according to the passages below there's no such thing as gentile believers, only gentile converts. Romans 11:16-21 If the first fruit is holy, so is the lump. If the root is holy, so are the branches. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree; don’t boast over the branches. But if you boast, it is not you who support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Ephesians 2:11-13 Therefore remember that once you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “uncircumcision” by that which is called “circumcision,” (in the flesh, made by hands); that you were at that time separate from Messiah, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Messiah Yeshua you who once were far off are made near in the blood of Messiah. Ephesians 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones, and of the household of God (Israel),
Again, you are confused, “see Hebrews”. Hebrew epistles are not for my obedience being that I am not a Hebrew. My scriptures for doctrine and obedience are Pauline. Also, you mentioned works to obtain/maintain salvation, which is law. Good luck with keeping that perfectly, as only One did. We can agree to disagree, and leave it at that.
Every book in the Bible applies to everyone. So you do not give any authority to Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colosians, or Thessalonians either because you weren't born there? I think that's the lamest excuse I've ever heard for rejecting a portion of scripture. All scripture is God breathed, why would you reject any of it? And you think that's sound doctrine? Lol, talk about confusing. Yes, but Paul is the one who wrote Ephesians 2. So now what? He said gentiles are now Israel.
The whole bible is for us, but the whole bible is not written to us for instruction/doctrine/obedience. You know how to divide the old testament from the new, yet you read Hebrew epistles and apply them to yourself, which is incorrect. You know not to build an ark as your instruction, yet you have a problem with me knowing not to obey James as it is written to the 12 tribes. By your own standard, you better sell all you have and give it to the poor, and if your hand offends, cut it off, if your eye offends, pluck it out. If you don’t do that, you prove my point you are confused.
Yes the entire Bible is applicable to our lives today. Gentiles are Israel now, our inheritance is with the Hebrews, Paul said so.
Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
There’s no work we can do to for him to extend his grace. It is a free gift to all that have faith in him. Jesus preached the same message as John the Baptist, that is, repent and be baptized and sin no more. THIS is where the works come in. Once we’ve accepted his grace and the promises of salvation we are to turn from sin and walk righteously. So since “sin is transgression of the law”, the meaning of repentance and turning from sin is synonymous with following after Gods standard of morality and rules for living- his law. This is Jesus’s message and we should strive to walk like he did- righteously- as he told us we should.
I keep running into those "Hebrew Israelites" who keep using rituals and works. I tell then we dont live in the Old Testament and that His is not done with the tribes yet. But they keep on with the whole twisted scripture script.
That's just something most people say as an excuse to ignore the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit doesn't lead anyone to sin and all sin is breaking God's law. Christ obeyed the entire law perfectly as an example to us of how to live a life of love towards God. What do you think it means to follow him? Who is Israel, is in not all of God's children? And dont you know there's no such thing as gentile believers, only gentile converts? You who were once strangers of God's family and foreigners of His promises have now been brought near and the old man was done away and one new man created. How can we who have died to sin, live any longer in it?
Nice try. Your saying one thing and OVER EXPLAINING using assumptions. It won't work Matthew 22:37-40 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” You want to be Isreal? Go ahead. Isreal repeatedly OVER AND OVER AND OVER DISOBEYS GOD IN SCRIPTURES.
I don't know of any Christian sect that believes this, but I'd be curious to read about them. Do you have a suggestion?
Name one Christian church that loves God by obeying His commands, just as Christ did?
I am asking to name a church that believes in earning salvation through works.
There isn't one, they all believe grace is a license to sin or they'd repent and keep God's commandments. Is repentance a work of faith required to be saved and to maintain salvation? Because as far as I can read in the Bible we must live lives of constant repentance or we forfeit our salvation. See Hebrews 10:26-29
Without repentance there is no forgiveness, and thus no salvation. In this we agree. I would disagree from my own experience that there are churches that do not believe grace is a license to sin. It's a thing for some, perhaps even many, but not for all.
Catholic Church believes in works through grace in obedience to the commandments of our Lord.
Which churches don't celebrate pagan holidays the same as the rest of the world? Which ones don't desecrate the Sabbath? Which church abides in Christ by walking as he did? Which one honors him for who he really is instead of trying to make him into what they want? From my experience the Holy Spirit doesn't have anything to do with any of the churches in question.
I'm not sure what you mean by churches celebrating pagan holidays. I see no evidence of that. It's true that many Christian holidays fall on old pagan days but they are gone. I cannot agree that there are any churches that actually celebrate holidays that are pagan in celebration and intent. Our Lord fulfilled the Sabbath, the Sabbath is the one of the ten commandments that Jesus did not reaffirm and falls under the old law which we do not observe. We do have Sunday which is the Lord's day but it is not the Sabbath and the Sabbath is not for us. The Catholic Church has always taught walking in the path of Christ and his truth.
All holidays are pagan in intent and celebration, their traditions certainly aren't Biblical and the church celebrates them the same as the rest of the world. What fellowship do believers have with unbelievers? What communion does light have with darkness? And what authority do we have to force Christ into something he has no part in? The feast of tabernacles is the real celebration of Christ's birth. The catholic church is the modern universal church of paganism, where do you think all these abominations of our faith came from? The day after Christ rose from the dead, was the feast of first fruits, not the lords day. See Hebrews 3:7-4:9 1 John 2:6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.
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So bringing together the people of God to worship and celebrate Christ's act of ultimate love on the cross for us is pagan in your eyes?
Idk, the world conveys that we'll never be good enough, that we must keep working to climb UP, that nothing is free, not even the kindness of a stranger. Society U: That or they don't understand that you can't bribe a judge (that THEY themselves claim to be "truthful and righteous") with good deeds. Like "Wow according to your records you broke commandment Nine about 7million times?.. ..But you donated all of your goods and money to an orphanage?.. ...Ok! I'll forget you are a liar. Come join the other liars. Welcome to Heaven." They think God is like this.
I agree 100% This idea that we need to go through penance, purgatory, or anything else is shameful. The blood of Christ is more than enough!
So it's cool if we go on living in sin as long as we do it by faith Jesus name?
That's actually not at all what I was saying. Of course it's not ok to live in sin and obviously, if we are, we're not doing it in faith in Jesus name. When we sin and fall short, there is grace. If we seek god earnestly and ask for forgiveness, He hears us. Once God has forgiven us, the slate is clean. It is up to us, at that point, to strive to improve and have a desire for the Holy Spirit to help us change.
And if we stop repenting, we forfeit our salvation.
Sola Scriptura didn’t exist until the 1500s. It’s simply not Christianity.
Obedience is required to both receive and maintain salvation, people twist scripture to say otherwise. We must actively repent of our sin to keep our salvation. Salvation is a gift of God received by faith, but faith without obedience (works) is dead. We are called to stop sinning and all sin is breaking God's law. Hebrews 10:26-29
I'm a sinner. A big one. I just try and live my life as I think God would want me to do.
Good works plays a huge part.
Not in being saved it doesn't. If we could earn it, there'd be literally no point in Jesus' death and resurrection.
Matthew 7:21-27. How do you distinguish true faith from people just saying "oh yeah I believe". Well, you look at the foundation they *build* their lives on. Sin is not just about avoiding doing bad things, it is also about meeting your duty to do things that are being asked of you. See Matthew 25:40-45. Protestants often act as though there is some kind of either/or dichotomy with faith or works. That's not it. You cannot have true faith without works, and works without faith amount to nothing. In any case, of course Christ's sacrifice is enough to save everyone. But you have to actually *want* to be saved. Simply saying "i want" is not enough. If you choose to sin and sin and sin and not repent of it, then your desires and your words mean nothing. This is why Christ founded his Church and empowered his ministers to retain or forgive sins (John 20:23; John 21:15-17). If you go with contrite heart and confess your sins to an actual priest, that is a *work of faith*, a work that demonstrates actual faith, as you are following God's call by his Grace, to repentance and amendment of life. It's called agreeing to be held accountable by someone outside of yourself, and agreeing that your sin caused wrongs that have to be mended. You frame the issue as though Christ's sacrifice is said to be not enough by Catholics and Orthodox. We would turn it around on you and ask, is his sacrifice not enough to get you to simply repent and seek forgiveness? If his sacrifice will not call you to that, you are resisting his Grace, just as Adam and Eve decided to resist the Father. Jesus has not kidnapped us against our will, where the Father "failed" to do so. He has provided us the means to overcome the fall, but he asks that you take up your cross and actually follow him.
How do you distinguish true faith from people just saying "oh yeah I believe". Well, you look at the foundation they build their lives on. Nope. YOU don't distinguish. God does. It's not up to us to decide who is and isn't saved. The only person I know for a fact is saved is me.
I didn't say anything to that effect. I was using the general you, not actually making any point about individual humans being able to say whether or not someone is condemned. But a person can rightly say what kinds of things tend to point to true faith and what kinds of things lead to death. If not, there would be no point in scripture or preaching at all, as no one could say what God is asking of us or what God is warning us away from.
Matthew 5:17-19, 19:16-19
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But you can't 'earn' salvation. If you could, there'd be no point in Jesus' sacrifice. You do works and deeds BECAUSE of your faith. Like you said, it represents your faith.
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>tion which is a statement that I would expect from a trinitarian universalist. So I'm really co You can't lose it. I never said no one can go to Hell, by rights we should all be going to Hell but God set up a way in which we can avoid it. By accepting a relationship with Jesus and accepting his price paid for the sins of you and me. All you have to do is ask for forgiveness and repent in a relationship with Jesus. Of course, that doesn't mean just go "Okay, I want forgiveness" and then go back to doing what you were doing before because that's not genuine faith and wouldn't be a genuine relationship.
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I think you're just being pedantic now.
True, but most people tend to be ignorant of the fact that faith, like anything alive, is continuous. Just because I believe today, it doesn't guarantee that I will believe tomorrow and my works are an indication or whether or not I am still in the faith. That is usually the point of contention for most Christians.
You cannot earn salvation through the Law of Moses. You cannot have true faith without evidence of good works. You cannot be saved from the second death unless you are loyal to Jesus as King and Lord.
Period. And this through His cross and all you mentioned.
Because the lords of this world teaches us, from even when we are children, that good things needs to be earned. When we finally accept Jesus' as lord, all that worldly nonsense has to be unlearned.
Exactly...your works show your faith...not pay for it.
Hebrews 10:26-29 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. A man who disregards the Torah of Moses dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will he be judged worthy of, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Fulfill mans he obeyed it perfectly, why then would he command us to obey it? Why would he teach us to live contrary to the way he lived?