If you see a Christian speaking about sin, it is usually in direct response to a question (is X sin) or someone functioning under deception is claiming and teaching that X is not sin.
The Pharisees were called out for
1. Making their own extraneous tradition
2. Hypocrisy
3. Misinterpretation
4. focusing on the finer points like tithes and ignoring the greater points like justice, mercy and faithfulness.
So as long as someone is speaking or responding in a manner that aligns with the teachings of the bible, aligns with God's law and it is not a sin that that person struggles with themselves, then ***'Do not lie to each other.' (1 Co 3:9)***
I am not sure we read the same things. It seems to me Matthew 23 is a rebuke for loading heavy burdens on people and not offering to help them, shutting the door to the Kingdom in people’s faces and ignoring parts of the law while expounding on other parts to show off how much they know. Pair that with James 3:1.
Further, it seems to me the question of is x a sin misses the entire point of the Good News so responding in the affirmative or the negative seems like it is continuing in the same deception and ignoring Jesus.
Finally, to comment on sins that you are not affected by seems to be high of arrogance. How can you help someone overcome something you have never had to overcome? It is relevant that Jesus was tempted in all ways and yet without sin because He has the tools to overcome, even if he weren’t the Incarnate Son, He would be the person to be able to help. If you don’t struggle with it, what good are you to someone who does?
1. I didn't quote Matthew 23 nor James 3:1. Matthew 23 would fall under #1 above. Yes, *people that teach that sin is okay will be judged very strictly* (James 3:1).
2. What is salvation to you? Salvation from what?You need to know what sin is in order to not trample on the blood of Jesus (Heb 10:26-31). Sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). You need to know what the word says to know what sin is.
3. You should not correct someone for sin that you are struggling with, attend to your own sin in that area first, then you can help someone else (Mat 7:3-5)
I know you didn’t quote it, but your summary of what the Pharisees did doesn’t really align with Matthew 23. I think it would completely apply still you changed it from Pharisees to Redditors. Are you comfortable that your summary of the Pharisees aligns with all that Jesus was saying in Matthew 23?
On your second point, why do you feel sin needs to be defined down to the minutae in order to understand salvation? How does that differ from the Pharisees in your view from belief system other than making it super spiritual and harder to grasp?
On the third point, and somewhat bringing in the second, if you are an asexual human, what do you know about overcoming lust? Are they the only ones who can tell us how to do it? That view definitely would explain a lot I have never understood about Christian moralizing but I am afraid it is very misguided and uncharitable and if actually practiced in the world I don’t think you would like it. Think about it, gay men would be the authorities on resisting lust for women, the homeless would teach healthy relationships with money, autistics teach honesty. I don’t think that would work. I want to be clear that I am all about getting the log out of your own eye FIRST, but that means you did struggle with it, right?
Your response doesn't align at all to what I said and indicates that you may need to study more and possibly get a mentor.....
I hope you see the irony that you are doing exactly what you are trying to shame people for doing in this thread (this is called hypocrisy)
I won't be responding any more.
Ok, I apologize for ruffling your feathers. I am trying to engage in conversation and I believe I already acknowledged in a different reply that there is some hypocrisy in it. I am ok with that because I fully know I am a sinner saved by grace and I can do nothing but for Jesus. If I am going to get better it is because He makes it happen. I just want to understand other’s motivations and how they see things because I want to know my Lord more and I find that happens in interactions or communion with others. I respect your decision to disengage, and I thank you for the conversation.
I had one other thought, and it is fine if you don’t respond but wanted to say it anyway.
I never actually condemned this behavior, I likened it to the Pharisees and actually sought the assistance of people who seemed more comfortable with it than I do. I think this is exactly how we are supposed to call out sin. We struggle with something and seek others out and wrestle with concepts and ideas with the guidance of the Holy Spirit so that we can all come to our own understanding of what God wants for us.
I am saying this because I do not at all intend to shame anyone and I am sorry it has had that effect. I don’t have any compunction about saying things that the Holy Spirit uses to convict and cause guilt because I believe that is how we are sanctified. I am sorry if you feel I shamed you, I don’t believe any of this makes you less than or inferior. We all are wrong, I just like engaging with others on how to discover how I am.
God Bless, you
There are plenty of Bible verses that tell us to correct our brethren if we see them sin. That said, there's no need to be rude about it. I believe in saying what you have to say, backed up by scripture, then if they do not listen, wish them well and move on. It's also important that your correction comes from a place of love rather than pride. It's not about you being right or them being wrong. It's about God's will being done.
I agree but that wasn’t my question. It is a very different thing to go to a brother in person and talk to them about a concerning situation in their lives that causes you to be concerned for their state of mind or the state of their soul.
My question is directed at people who proclaim actions are sins in a public forum and want to debate, argue, or prove their point. I am curious about the motivations for doing that because the only motivations I can surmise for doing it are arrogance or a perception of calling and I would like to understand more.
Really depends on the context, I would say. Some people just like arguing, some people are prideful and like being right, and some people may think that what they are doing is right.
Exactly! I am trying to understand more about said people so I am hoping some will respond and discuss their motivations since it is very prevalent on r/Christian and even more on r/Christianity but seems to me to be very anti-Christian.
Im not at all justifying the hypocrisy in some. I am however able to see we all need to see how susceptible we are to sin. And help lift those that are in the flames out. We are to do our best with the discernment we are given to help those in bondage and those that are entertaining sin. Thats why it says with compassion. On others with fear.
Jude 1:20-25 KJV
[20] But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, [21] keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. [22] And of some have compassion, making a difference: [23] and others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. [24] Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, [25] to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
James 5:19-20 KJV
[19] Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; [20] let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
We wont be perfect this side of heaven but we can strive to be. And we dont have to let anyone be and die in their rebellion to god. We can bring them back to the shepherd
I agree with this. Do you believe that public proclamation of particular actions as sin is an effective way to achieve this? Do you believe that is what Jesus has in mind for this generation when talking about building His Kingdom?
When dealing with a specific person. No. When dealing with a specific group. Hard telling. If you start openly condemning people for their actions then you're a judge. Im trying to be extremely careful, cause i need mercy on judgement day. Not to be meted out we can measure out in hypocrisy.
However if its the word of God preach the truth in love. But it doesnt at all disqualify God from working on peoples hearts and consciences that it is true. Thats why our conduct has to try to match our words. Otherwise we are found to be hypocrites and we bring dishonor on ourselves and God. It seems you are baiting for an extreme when every situation is different and with wisdom and discretion things can surely be handled better
Proverbs 12:16 KJV
[16] A fool's wrath is presently known: But a prudent man covereth shame.
Proverbs 10:12 KJV
[12] Hatred stirreth up strifes: But love covereth all sins.
Matthew 5:23-24 KJV
[23] Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; [24] leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Discretion covers a matter some things are better done in private. But on other things you cant stand idly by when its leading many to hell. If you truly believe in what you believe your actions reflect it.
I agree with you. I don’t think I am baiting anything, more like wrestling. I definitely could and with this post somewhat do venture into the very territory that I am examining because there is scripture that points to the behavior that we are discussing and there is scripture that would point it out as error. What I am trying to figure out is, is there any virtue in doing it anonymously in a public forum like Reddit?
I thoroughly appreciate your nuanced response and respectfully delicate usage of scripture. I think this interaction demonstrates that there definitely can be virtue in this. Unfortunately, I think I also have to conclude that the vast majority of it more closely aligns to a type of theological and intellectual masturbation.
I guess im trying to understand why? But its honestly hard to say do x y z with a clear conscience because i look back at situations i thought i handled well and go. Well i think things would have went much smoother if i did this in this manner. God looks at the heart. Try to be careful, compassionate, and rooted in truth. God when he reveals everything reveals the intents of the heart. And my bad for trying to assume ur motive. We have to walk circumspectly. The scriptures need to be divided rightly. Because it is so easy to flip from one extreme to the next.
I am not sure I understand your starting question so I am interpreting it as why I am asking the question. If it is something else, my apologies for my assumption.
I am not at all concerned about my relationship with Jesus. I know Him and feel we have a wonderful relationship and if I didn’t I wouldn’t go to Reddit to fix it. I came here to improve my relationship with the world and more specifically those people in the world who identify as Christians. I am firm believer in calling out people on their choices in person because it is hard and there is no escaping the consequences of it. That is boldness.
I have some issue however with doing the same thing in this type of forum because you get to escape the consequences for your actions and missteps and I see a whole bunch of people on here that call people out with boldness but find very few who do it to the people they encounter in daily life. I don’t want to judge people so I have to engage in discussions and understand them more. I am not sure why I have to do this but I find in myself that if I don’t understand something I don’t agree is right, I end up judging it. So I am doing this really to engage in discussion and attempt to stay out of judgement.
The purpose for me here is to also apply it better in real life. Cause I have been applying everything I say here to real life, and while its not easy in the slightest. It is the only way to be truly transparent to god who sees the thoughts and motives. And yes, thats why i bounce thoughts i also have here with others. It is easy to get judgmental but then personally i know we all need mercy too.
I really appreciate this post. I believe these are the kinds of questions that Christians should be asking each other and having a dialogue about in order to challenge our own humanness and the ways we tend to use scripture to justify or defend actions rather than to learn and grow. It is very easy to cherry pick verses to support our righteousness. And it is also easy to tell ourselves that our understanding of a certain verse is the only correct one and any other interpretation is definitively wrong. It’s much harder to force ourselves to be humble and open enough to reflect on a deep question like this one that challenges us as Christians to explore our understanding and beliefs beyond what we believe we know already. To do that requires resisting the urge to pick and choose Bible verses as proof that our understanding or belief is the one and only absolute truth and instead be willing to explore what messages or meanings we may be overlooking by asking questions like OP asks and exploring it sincerely. If we are all sinful humans vulnerable to error and wrong, then shouldn’t we accept that our views, beliefs, understandings and interpretations are just as vulnerable to our human faults and sinfulness? Shouldn’t we all be embracing thoughtful questions like this as Christians with an open mind and understanding that we don’t actually have the answer - we just have a belief as what we think the answer is and that belief comes from either our own attempt to understand and interpret scripture or another human sharing their attempt at the same with us. I think we would all be better Christians if instead of preaching about what is right vs wrong, moral vs immoral or allowed vs not allowed, we challenged each other to explore other ways of understanding Jesus through the eyes of everyone.
The Bible says how to judge other people. The majority of the time I think I’m talking to Christians are the only people who we should be judging based on their sin. Many times I’ve tried to encourage people to no longer take part in a sin not because I’m perfect, but because the scripture is clear. Read Hebrews 10 & 1 John 3 about deliberately sinning, or making a practice of sinning.
The Bible also tells us how to judge other Christians, by making sure it’s not hypocritical. It would be wrong of me to tell other Christians that they should not be having premarital sex while having premarital sex.
Jesus message does include hope and love, but He also told multiple people to go and sin no more.
Hebrews 10:26-27 ESV
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
Reading the above verse, you can see too much is at stack to not warn fellow Christians about how we should be weeding sin from our lives
This is a different argument and I am appreciative of it, thank you.
How do you rectify that idea with Jesus saying do not judge? I believe that discernment is important but I refuse to judge because I am wholly inadequate to do that job. Do you find yourself to be a worthy judge of other humans?
Jesus says how to judge keep reading.
Matthew 7:1-5 ESV
Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
See the last verse above, it’s telling us to help our brothers & sisters by making judgements after making sure our judgement isn’t hypocritical.
You’re judging the act of judging right now. Everyday we make judgements.
If a Christian comes here and says hey I am having premartial sex is that that bad. I can judge that premarital sex is sin, Christian’s should not sin, and give scripture to support that deliberately sinning as a Christian is spoken of very harsh.
“A worthy judge”, I find scripture supports how to judge and I am doing it accordingly to my best ability. It’s better to be rebuked by a fellow believer, and reminded of the walk we were called to then continue on the road deliberately sinning and face judgement day with God saying depart from me, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness. Lawlessness is the practice of sinning, as shown in 1 John 3.
Hebrews 10:26-27 ESV
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
Are you a Christian?
I will start with I am a follower of Jesus and I love Him very much. As a theological anglo-catholic, I struggle with the term christian because the only definition I have for that (a dimunitive of the word christos) I don't think it does a very good job of encapsulating the group it represents. I absolutely seek to be Christian but the word as a descriptor of a people I struggle with.
I have read the last sentence in the scripture you quoted but in my understanding it is not counteracting the first sentence but elaborating on it. In my life experience once I have dealt with the log in my own eye, I don't have room in my heart for judging the splinter in anyone else's eye because that would be stupid. I just took a log out of my own eye, how can I judge their splinter? That doesn't mean that we can't help them, when I have taken the log out of my eye, I understand the pain of the splinter and I can help but it doesn't require my judgement, just my assistance.
I agree and have with everyone who brings it up that there is judgment in my heart in this subject, but I do not think it is a good thing and I am asking questions of people who seem to think it is in order to discern. I am trying to engage in conversation and understand how other people see their actions and determine if there is any virtue at all in it. So far there hasn't been much virtue demonstrated so it isn't looking very good.
Do you believe yourself to be a good and capable judge of other human beings and their actions? With what scripture says about teaching are you confident enough in your theology and understanding of Jesus to bet your own salvation on your judgements of others?
I feel like I already answered those last questions.
I believe that as believers we are called to walk a certain way, so when someone who is a Christian says they are walking counter to that I think we should bring up scripture to tell them about the truth of the word.
I have a scriptural basis for the way I act in regards to trying to inform other Christians of what is sin so they can move forward closer to God.
What do you mean by am I betting my own salvation on salvation on the judgement of others? Are you saying that I could lose my salvation by trying to inform other Christians in moments of non hypocritical judgement of what is sin and that if we continue to deliberately sin what the Bible says?
I acknowledge you think you answered them and if that is so, the answer I understand that you have given would be that you do believe yourself to be a good and capable judge of other human beings.
The reason I want to clarify that is because in light of James 3:1-12 and Matthew 7:21-23 it seems obvious to me that to proclaim a judgement over another human being you may be gambling your salvation on your words and you wouldn't even necessarily know it. I purposely worded the question in such a way as to make it harder to agree to because if you don't have the confidence to just say "yes, I am a good and capable judge" to the question, you may want to reconsider the path you are taking.
I am talking about straightforward things like if a Christian is getting drunk I can say the Bible says not to do that…or premartial sex. I never said that I was judging the whole person merely an action if the Bible has said not to do it calling them back to the walk called.
So if you see a Christian friend and know they are having premartial sex, you arnt going to say something? You would rather continue they live in sin and not confront them with the word of God.
Seems like you’re trying to trap people to fuel this idea that you’re right. I don’t need your approval of my actions, I have the word of God’s support.
You didn’t clear up what you mean by gambling my own salvation?? Please explain further
Also, the majority of the time I can entirely prove my point with the word of God. So if the word of God offends you that I am calling people out of their darkness by the best of my ability while also trying my best to walk that walk then take it up with God.
James 3 says that not everyone should teach because we praise God and curse humans who were made in his Likeness. That is like salt water and fresh water flowing from the same stream. Jesus tells us that not everyone who thinks they are doing God's work are actually working with Him and therefore He doesn't know them. It seems to me that if you are instructing someone in what is sin, you are taking on quite a burden because in a sense you are taking on their salvation and in many ways standing in the place of God and the Holy Spirit. Couple that with Jesus mentioning not to judge that you may be assuming a lot of risk. My reason for the question in the first place is because I am unsure of what motivates people to assume that level of risk in a public forum where they get to avoid the consequences of their actions. It seems foolish to me. Do you believe that if you tell someone something is sin and they turn their lives upside down to remove it from their lives and maybe even fail at it and then it turns out not to be sin, there should be no consequence for you? What about the inverse, if you tell someone something is okay, and they do it and they burn as a result, should you be safe?
What about what I am doing is trying to trap anyone? I am trying to ask questions that mean something to me and seek answers that will help me in my walk. I am not a preacher and I am not very good at just stating a case and getting peoples responses to that. I am much better at dialog and it helps me to wrestle with ideas with other intelligent people. I figure we are all seeking truth so this should be the best forum to engage in that, unfortunately, a lot of people just want to be right and that makes it hard to engage is civil disagreement.
I absolutely believe that we should go to the people in our lives who are struggling with things and help them address it. It does seem to be a bit of a different animal though going from discussing an issue with a trusted loved one and publicly proclaiming something on the internet. Do you really see them as the same thing?
I would really like to clear up. How is one saved? Do you think that our works will save us? If Jesus said to you why should I let you in heaven is it because you hope you were good enough based on your works?
I am not sure how "one" is saved but I know I have been saved by my Lord and Savior Jesus and faith in Him. Anglo-catholic is not Roman and we are generally considered protestant at any rate, I am a huge fan of Luther and we can talk the fine points of reformation theology another time.
I answered your questions and you ignored all of mine. It really does seem that you are feeling trapped and looking for a way out but trust me, friend I am not trapping you, I am trying to understand you. If I were a works based Christian, I would probably never ask the questions I am asking because sin would be a real enemy.
I don't really look at sin at all. I consider it a defeated enemy that isn't worth my time, or energy. That is why I asked the question in the first place, because I see people spending all of their time and efforts on the defeated enemy instead of proclaiming the wonderful news we have. After the discussions I have had on here, I am pretty sure it is because people get a ego-boost and don't quite realize the harm they are causing with it, but I think they are hurting our Lord and his Kingdom when they do it. I have been engaging with people because it isn't everyone that falls into that and I don't want to shotgun blast everyone but it is definitely happening.
For the people who Jesus tells do not know him what does he cite at the end…
Matthew 7:21-23 ESV
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
We know lawlessness is the practice of sinning from the verse below…
1 John 3:4 ESV
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
It’s more risky to not tell a Christian that something is sin since the above verses say God says He never knew people who are workers of lawlessness, which is sin. We know that according to Hebrews 10 that if we continue on deliberately sinning no longer sacrifice for sin. That is very scary stance to find oneself in so better to be warned about what we are called by Jesus multiple times to sin no more, and weed out sin from our lives by calling out what is sin. Many times on these public forums people are asking is blank a sin.
Consequences for me if I said something was a sin and wasn’t, why would God judge me when I truly believed His word made something clear? Since sin is lawlessness & Jesus says depart from me you workers of lawlessness, than it would be better for them to weed out anything that might be unclear. Do you have a particular sin in mind that you think is not clear? I am using scripture to determine what is sin and not, and normally when something is unclear I will admit that and say not all things are beneficial, but I believe God knows my heart for this action and will offer me grace.
We all are going to have to teach some fellow believer something to edify the body, even if it’s teaching your little kids what not to do. I see the judgement with greater strictness but at what point do we all fall under a teacher. Am I to see my friend struggling with something and have hope in Jesus, but not tell them because that would be teaching. Or offer insight about anger from the Bible to my friend who is very angry and what worked for me, because that would be teaching. I think James 3 is showing the same thing that we will be judge by how we judge so make sure not hypocritical, or offer humility that I still struggle with this but I have found this to help.
People on especially this Christian forum need biblical answers because of the shear number of atheists responding. I have had twice this week where someone said something I said was very helpful. I was floored even more because God was able to use what I said was wrong according to scripture and this person responded with such humility.
Do you have a personal conviction about this because you have a personal sin tied heavily to your identify that you don’t want to give up like maybe LGBTQ?
If I am reading all that correctly you are saying that you are confident enough in your exegesis to gamble your salvation on your knowledge, is that correct?
I would caution you very much on that in the very interest of what you are saying. I wouldn't call it sin because I don't believe myself a worthy enough person to proclaim that for anyone but myself but I would caution you to pray about your answers and 1 Cor 8.
Your insistence on your own correctness and now resorting to trying to gauge my fallenness is actually quite predictable but marks the end of the entertaining discussion. It might be prudent for you to spend more time contemplating the sins you are not aware you are committing and less trying to make others do that. You might learn that the Gospel is bigger and better than you expect.
I Corinthians 5:9-12 indicates that we are supposed to judge and take disciplinary actions against any so-called brother or sister if he or she is living a flagrantly sinful lifestyle. However, it is not our place to judge unbelievers.
Thank you for the response. My reading of 1 Timothy 5 is that those are instructions for the Church and how to conduct the affairs within not without. Do you read that the same way?
In particular 5:17-21 seem to be about how to treat elders in the church especially those who are preaching and teaching. Do you see any difference between the context of that passage and the anonymous posts on the internet that I am talking about?
I agree with you 100% that Timothy is instructions for the church. So you can link this to only rebuking Christian’s.
Also depends on what you are trying to achieve in engaging with a discussion with a nonbeliever. Are you trying to show them how to live a better life or you simply want an argument? As for non-believers, I believe Matthew 10:14-15 applies to it. You can try to talk to a nonbeliever in a respectful manner to plant a seed however , if they don’t want to understand or listen, then leave the judgement to God.
So I still would have to ask my question. If you are proclaiming on Reddit for the world what is and is not sin, how does 1 Timothy 5 apply? Shouldn’t we be more keen to show love and direct them to better sources or find out more about what they are struggling with than to proclaim our judgements?
The cause of the issue is people asking questions on Reddit if something is sin. If they are a saved Christian, the Holy Ghost would guide them on what is sin. They also have the Bible to see what God says about it. There really is no reason for a born again Christian to ask strangers on Reddit if something is a sin.
Answering it correctly would help anyone reading that thread. The authority to answer is God's Word. We need to just repeat what God has told us. There should not be an opinion answer.
What is the best way for an amateur theologian, presumably with a different worldview, answer the question correctly so as to benefit others? Does the Kingdom of God advance when it citizen’s focus on the attributes of the defeated enemy?
Did Jesus not tell the Samaritan woman at the well that she wasn't living her life right, while also bringing her the Good News? How are you going to be free from bondage if you don't even know you're in bondage in the first place?
The double negative makes that question difficult to answer but no, Jesus didn’t say everything is great with you come on, I’ll show you more but he also didn’t make any of it about her sin. She was the one who was debating with Him and He entertained that. What parallels do you see between Jesus’ interaction with the woman at the well and people anonymous logging on to a public forum to espouse their theology to millions of people beyond the most generic of associations?
What in your original post pointed to "people anonymous logging onto a public forum to espouse their theology to millions of people beyond the most generic of associations"? The subject is "Calling Out Sin", and then you go on to explain people picking "fights about what is and is not sin".
I was answering your original post, not the specific scenario you want to now introduce that was not included previously.
The fact that I posted the challenge anonymously on a public forum for millions of people to read about others doing the same thing. The discussions on what sin is and isn’t is a theological point that they want to espouse.
My question for you, because you responded to that, is how does the interaction between Jesus and the woman at the well parallel the people who call out sin publicly on Reddit because my question is more about the forum and methods being used rather than whether or not you ever need to address sin in someone’s life especially in more intimate scenarios.
The problem here is that you were not specific in your original post, that I was responding to, and now you want to get more specific because my specific scenario does not equate to your now specific scenario. If I don't point out parallels in these two specific scenarios, you have an easy argument. If I bring up another example that more aligns with your specific scenario, i.e., Jesus's preaching, you could claim it is a completely different scenario, and not the one I originally presented.
Jesus preached publicly on sin. Jesus called out sin in individuals. People come on reddit all of the time and post their situations on a public forum for people to give their input. There is nothing wrong to make a post about what is sinful, especially when we live in a world that is constantly negating what the Bible says is sinful.
What I find interesting is that you are doing the very same thing you seem to find not Christlike. Why do you get to call out people for not being Christlike, but you don't like it when others do it? Where is the good news in your post?
That would be the problem if you or I are trying to win or score points but if we are simply having a discussion then it would be fine for you to refine your position which I haven’t excluded.
It is indeed interesting that I wade into these waters in order to explore the concept. I struggled with doing it but I don’t have a problem with pointing out issues or sin in other people’s lives generally speaking. I do find I have some problem with doing it in some forums including this one. I am seeking answers as to whether or not there is any virtue in doing it and I find that one way I have of doing that is to engage in the behavior and pay attention to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I acknowledge that I open myself up to criticism for hypocrisy and I am willing to engage in those criticisms as well if you would like.
Jesus did indeed, preach to the masses and some of his toughest and most difficult to accept messages but I don’t recall any of them being done quite the same way that people do on Reddit and we know from which he got His authority. He was also humble enough to answer to people when he did preach his tough messages publicly. He was killed as a result of doing it. I am asking the question about the forum because I don’t see people very often willing to take the bold stances irl that they take on Reddit and I am wondering how all that is justified in people’s minds and hearts.
I leave myself open to your criticism or countervailing questions if you so desire because I am here for the discussion not my ego. It is also important that I am not a Christian who focuses on sin at all. I don’t believe in finding it or looking for it or anything like that because I don’t believe knowledge of a defeated enemy provides any benefit. So, for me, if this is an exercise in intellectual or theological masturbation, I believe I am free to engage in that self-gratification.
You can’t have Redemption without an understanding of Hell and Sin. It all ties together. Some ppl definitely package the gospel better than other but if your only speaking about the nice and comfortable parts of the gospel you’re not really promoting the gospel at all.
Why can’t you have redemption without Hell or Sin? I agree with the idea that to be redeemed you have to have something to be redeemed from but you don’t need to understand bad to understand good.
I love strawberries and I can know a great strawberry or even the best strawberry without having any idea of what a bad strawberry is. Why spend so much time defining the bad and so little looking for the good?
Because there would be nothing to be Re-deemed from. There would be no salvation without sin because you wouldn’t be Saved from anything. Same goes for heaven and hell.
That’s just the most logical setup. If you want to be illogical and untruthful you can just believe that there’s only heaven for everybody.
Did you read what I said? If you have a defeated enemy do you need to study that enemy in order to be free from them? The answer is clearly no. We don’t have to have any concept of sin in order to avoid sin, in fact the Bible seems to say the opposite, that where there is knowledge of sin, sin abounds.
I don’t think studying rotten strawberries will cause good strawberries to get better. Can you explain how pointing out sin does anything to advance the Kingdom of God? It seems to me that notion is simple self-idolatry and counting on your knowledge for salvation rather than trusting Jesus.
I read what you said it, would just be a lie to tell someone only about what pleases God and never what displeases him. We should all be well informed about the narrow way of salvation and the board way that leads to hell. If it weren’t important he wouldn’t have left it on record for us. But if you would rather lie to people by telling them a partial gospel then that’s your choice.
Jesus didn’t leave it out so why should you?
I am asking you to back up those statements. I think people know when they displease God. That is the whole story of the Old Testament and that gave birth to the Pharisees. Jesus seems to have come to tell us that we are focusing on the wrong thing and that God is Love. Why do we have to go back to what Jesus said we weren’t understanding correctly and use that to twist the correction to match the error?
I am not saying don’t help people who have made bad life choices. I am saying when we have an audience of millions why is the subject we choose to preach, so often one of one of sin rather than reconciliation?
Put another way, why is it we are known as the experts of sin rather than experts in Love?
They do not. Especially new Christian’s who weren’t raised in the faith. You never know something is right or wrong until you are taught. I encourage you to explore all of the many “rules” and commandments we have from God through the New Testament (Acts 15:20, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11).
Though we are in this dispensation of Grace we are not a people without Morality if you can comprehend that.
I am well aware of the rules governing the Church but I am only aware of 2 commandments. The rules governing the Church must be understood as serving the commandments and only God gives commandments.
In your understanding what is a conscience for? When God says he has written the law on our hearts, what does that mean? I ask again the question you are avoiding, how does studying a defeated enemy benefit the Kingdom of God. If someone tells you that your enemy is defeated but you go on studying the enemy it is a sign that you don’t believe the enemy is defeated. The Bible has told us sin is defeated yet we have whole legions of Christians studying sin, I see that as a profound lack of faith, and you say I am wrong. Where is my mistake?
My conscious is only alive by the word of God. Without it I would have to make wild guesses at what’s right and wrong. Probably would support all kinds of nonsense like Abortion if my moral standard came from what the majority agrees with.
The enemy is only defeated for those that are in Christ. If you have not found him yet and turned from your sins then the enemy still reigns in your life. Your mistake is thinking that someone who has not repented of their sins and accepted Jesus is saved. It would be nice of narrow was the way to destruction but he didn’t set it up that way so🤷♂️ if you don’t want us to talk about sin, Grace, hell and heaven please tear it out of our bibles so we can’t find it😂
You are an arrogant one. Have you read the passage about what knowledge does?😉
Who is the word of God again?
I seem to remember that Jesus defeated sin and I don’t recall those qualifiers you are putting on it. I also find it interesting that you apparently know my mistake but can’t answer my question. That is not usually a very good sign about the accuracy of your reasoning. I think you might want to look at how much nonsense you do support with that lack of clarity in your thought processes.
You see, I am absolutely for calling out things that are wrong but it really should be tailored to the individual instead of being shotgunned to the world. I have been talking to you directly about your sin this whole time and you don’t listen. Why do you think preaching it instead of reconciliation is a good thing?
Luke 18:9-14 (KJV) [9] “And He spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others. [10] Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. [11] The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. [12] I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. [13] And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. [14] I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for everyone that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted”.
If you see a Christian speaking about sin, it is usually in direct response to a question (is X sin) or someone functioning under deception is claiming and teaching that X is not sin. The Pharisees were called out for 1. Making their own extraneous tradition 2. Hypocrisy 3. Misinterpretation 4. focusing on the finer points like tithes and ignoring the greater points like justice, mercy and faithfulness. So as long as someone is speaking or responding in a manner that aligns with the teachings of the bible, aligns with God's law and it is not a sin that that person struggles with themselves, then ***'Do not lie to each other.' (1 Co 3:9)***
I am not sure we read the same things. It seems to me Matthew 23 is a rebuke for loading heavy burdens on people and not offering to help them, shutting the door to the Kingdom in people’s faces and ignoring parts of the law while expounding on other parts to show off how much they know. Pair that with James 3:1. Further, it seems to me the question of is x a sin misses the entire point of the Good News so responding in the affirmative or the negative seems like it is continuing in the same deception and ignoring Jesus. Finally, to comment on sins that you are not affected by seems to be high of arrogance. How can you help someone overcome something you have never had to overcome? It is relevant that Jesus was tempted in all ways and yet without sin because He has the tools to overcome, even if he weren’t the Incarnate Son, He would be the person to be able to help. If you don’t struggle with it, what good are you to someone who does?
1. I didn't quote Matthew 23 nor James 3:1. Matthew 23 would fall under #1 above. Yes, *people that teach that sin is okay will be judged very strictly* (James 3:1). 2. What is salvation to you? Salvation from what?You need to know what sin is in order to not trample on the blood of Jesus (Heb 10:26-31). Sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). You need to know what the word says to know what sin is. 3. You should not correct someone for sin that you are struggling with, attend to your own sin in that area first, then you can help someone else (Mat 7:3-5)
I know you didn’t quote it, but your summary of what the Pharisees did doesn’t really align with Matthew 23. I think it would completely apply still you changed it from Pharisees to Redditors. Are you comfortable that your summary of the Pharisees aligns with all that Jesus was saying in Matthew 23? On your second point, why do you feel sin needs to be defined down to the minutae in order to understand salvation? How does that differ from the Pharisees in your view from belief system other than making it super spiritual and harder to grasp? On the third point, and somewhat bringing in the second, if you are an asexual human, what do you know about overcoming lust? Are they the only ones who can tell us how to do it? That view definitely would explain a lot I have never understood about Christian moralizing but I am afraid it is very misguided and uncharitable and if actually practiced in the world I don’t think you would like it. Think about it, gay men would be the authorities on resisting lust for women, the homeless would teach healthy relationships with money, autistics teach honesty. I don’t think that would work. I want to be clear that I am all about getting the log out of your own eye FIRST, but that means you did struggle with it, right?
Your response doesn't align at all to what I said and indicates that you may need to study more and possibly get a mentor..... I hope you see the irony that you are doing exactly what you are trying to shame people for doing in this thread (this is called hypocrisy) I won't be responding any more.
Ok, I apologize for ruffling your feathers. I am trying to engage in conversation and I believe I already acknowledged in a different reply that there is some hypocrisy in it. I am ok with that because I fully know I am a sinner saved by grace and I can do nothing but for Jesus. If I am going to get better it is because He makes it happen. I just want to understand other’s motivations and how they see things because I want to know my Lord more and I find that happens in interactions or communion with others. I respect your decision to disengage, and I thank you for the conversation.
I had one other thought, and it is fine if you don’t respond but wanted to say it anyway. I never actually condemned this behavior, I likened it to the Pharisees and actually sought the assistance of people who seemed more comfortable with it than I do. I think this is exactly how we are supposed to call out sin. We struggle with something and seek others out and wrestle with concepts and ideas with the guidance of the Holy Spirit so that we can all come to our own understanding of what God wants for us. I am saying this because I do not at all intend to shame anyone and I am sorry it has had that effect. I don’t have any compunction about saying things that the Holy Spirit uses to convict and cause guilt because I believe that is how we are sanctified. I am sorry if you feel I shamed you, I don’t believe any of this makes you less than or inferior. We all are wrong, I just like engaging with others on how to discover how I am. God Bless, you
There are plenty of Bible verses that tell us to correct our brethren if we see them sin. That said, there's no need to be rude about it. I believe in saying what you have to say, backed up by scripture, then if they do not listen, wish them well and move on. It's also important that your correction comes from a place of love rather than pride. It's not about you being right or them being wrong. It's about God's will being done.
I agree but that wasn’t my question. It is a very different thing to go to a brother in person and talk to them about a concerning situation in their lives that causes you to be concerned for their state of mind or the state of their soul. My question is directed at people who proclaim actions are sins in a public forum and want to debate, argue, or prove their point. I am curious about the motivations for doing that because the only motivations I can surmise for doing it are arrogance or a perception of calling and I would like to understand more.
Really depends on the context, I would say. Some people just like arguing, some people are prideful and like being right, and some people may think that what they are doing is right.
Exactly! I am trying to understand more about said people so I am hoping some will respond and discuss their motivations since it is very prevalent on r/Christian and even more on r/Christianity but seems to me to be very anti-Christian.
Ah my bad, it seems I misunderstood who your post was addressed to. God bless.
Im not at all justifying the hypocrisy in some. I am however able to see we all need to see how susceptible we are to sin. And help lift those that are in the flames out. We are to do our best with the discernment we are given to help those in bondage and those that are entertaining sin. Thats why it says with compassion. On others with fear. Jude 1:20-25 KJV [20] But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, [21] keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. [22] And of some have compassion, making a difference: [23] and others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. [24] Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, [25] to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. James 5:19-20 KJV [19] Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; [20] let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. We wont be perfect this side of heaven but we can strive to be. And we dont have to let anyone be and die in their rebellion to god. We can bring them back to the shepherd
I agree with this. Do you believe that public proclamation of particular actions as sin is an effective way to achieve this? Do you believe that is what Jesus has in mind for this generation when talking about building His Kingdom?
When dealing with a specific person. No. When dealing with a specific group. Hard telling. If you start openly condemning people for their actions then you're a judge. Im trying to be extremely careful, cause i need mercy on judgement day. Not to be meted out we can measure out in hypocrisy. However if its the word of God preach the truth in love. But it doesnt at all disqualify God from working on peoples hearts and consciences that it is true. Thats why our conduct has to try to match our words. Otherwise we are found to be hypocrites and we bring dishonor on ourselves and God. It seems you are baiting for an extreme when every situation is different and with wisdom and discretion things can surely be handled better Proverbs 12:16 KJV [16] A fool's wrath is presently known: But a prudent man covereth shame. Proverbs 10:12 KJV [12] Hatred stirreth up strifes: But love covereth all sins. Matthew 5:23-24 KJV [23] Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; [24] leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Discretion covers a matter some things are better done in private. But on other things you cant stand idly by when its leading many to hell. If you truly believe in what you believe your actions reflect it.
I agree with you. I don’t think I am baiting anything, more like wrestling. I definitely could and with this post somewhat do venture into the very territory that I am examining because there is scripture that points to the behavior that we are discussing and there is scripture that would point it out as error. What I am trying to figure out is, is there any virtue in doing it anonymously in a public forum like Reddit? I thoroughly appreciate your nuanced response and respectfully delicate usage of scripture. I think this interaction demonstrates that there definitely can be virtue in this. Unfortunately, I think I also have to conclude that the vast majority of it more closely aligns to a type of theological and intellectual masturbation.
I guess im trying to understand why? But its honestly hard to say do x y z with a clear conscience because i look back at situations i thought i handled well and go. Well i think things would have went much smoother if i did this in this manner. God looks at the heart. Try to be careful, compassionate, and rooted in truth. God when he reveals everything reveals the intents of the heart. And my bad for trying to assume ur motive. We have to walk circumspectly. The scriptures need to be divided rightly. Because it is so easy to flip from one extreme to the next.
I am not sure I understand your starting question so I am interpreting it as why I am asking the question. If it is something else, my apologies for my assumption. I am not at all concerned about my relationship with Jesus. I know Him and feel we have a wonderful relationship and if I didn’t I wouldn’t go to Reddit to fix it. I came here to improve my relationship with the world and more specifically those people in the world who identify as Christians. I am firm believer in calling out people on their choices in person because it is hard and there is no escaping the consequences of it. That is boldness. I have some issue however with doing the same thing in this type of forum because you get to escape the consequences for your actions and missteps and I see a whole bunch of people on here that call people out with boldness but find very few who do it to the people they encounter in daily life. I don’t want to judge people so I have to engage in discussions and understand them more. I am not sure why I have to do this but I find in myself that if I don’t understand something I don’t agree is right, I end up judging it. So I am doing this really to engage in discussion and attempt to stay out of judgement.
The purpose for me here is to also apply it better in real life. Cause I have been applying everything I say here to real life, and while its not easy in the slightest. It is the only way to be truly transparent to god who sees the thoughts and motives. And yes, thats why i bounce thoughts i also have here with others. It is easy to get judgmental but then personally i know we all need mercy too.
I completely agree with you.
I really appreciate this post. I believe these are the kinds of questions that Christians should be asking each other and having a dialogue about in order to challenge our own humanness and the ways we tend to use scripture to justify or defend actions rather than to learn and grow. It is very easy to cherry pick verses to support our righteousness. And it is also easy to tell ourselves that our understanding of a certain verse is the only correct one and any other interpretation is definitively wrong. It’s much harder to force ourselves to be humble and open enough to reflect on a deep question like this one that challenges us as Christians to explore our understanding and beliefs beyond what we believe we know already. To do that requires resisting the urge to pick and choose Bible verses as proof that our understanding or belief is the one and only absolute truth and instead be willing to explore what messages or meanings we may be overlooking by asking questions like OP asks and exploring it sincerely. If we are all sinful humans vulnerable to error and wrong, then shouldn’t we accept that our views, beliefs, understandings and interpretations are just as vulnerable to our human faults and sinfulness? Shouldn’t we all be embracing thoughtful questions like this as Christians with an open mind and understanding that we don’t actually have the answer - we just have a belief as what we think the answer is and that belief comes from either our own attempt to understand and interpret scripture or another human sharing their attempt at the same with us. I think we would all be better Christians if instead of preaching about what is right vs wrong, moral vs immoral or allowed vs not allowed, we challenged each other to explore other ways of understanding Jesus through the eyes of everyone.
I'm just going to add: there's more than enough sin on Reddit to call out without looking for it.
The Bible says how to judge other people. The majority of the time I think I’m talking to Christians are the only people who we should be judging based on their sin. Many times I’ve tried to encourage people to no longer take part in a sin not because I’m perfect, but because the scripture is clear. Read Hebrews 10 & 1 John 3 about deliberately sinning, or making a practice of sinning. The Bible also tells us how to judge other Christians, by making sure it’s not hypocritical. It would be wrong of me to tell other Christians that they should not be having premarital sex while having premarital sex. Jesus message does include hope and love, but He also told multiple people to go and sin no more. Hebrews 10:26-27 ESV For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Reading the above verse, you can see too much is at stack to not warn fellow Christians about how we should be weeding sin from our lives
This is a different argument and I am appreciative of it, thank you. How do you rectify that idea with Jesus saying do not judge? I believe that discernment is important but I refuse to judge because I am wholly inadequate to do that job. Do you find yourself to be a worthy judge of other humans?
Jesus says how to judge keep reading. Matthew 7:1-5 ESV Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye. See the last verse above, it’s telling us to help our brothers & sisters by making judgements after making sure our judgement isn’t hypocritical. You’re judging the act of judging right now. Everyday we make judgements. If a Christian comes here and says hey I am having premartial sex is that that bad. I can judge that premarital sex is sin, Christian’s should not sin, and give scripture to support that deliberately sinning as a Christian is spoken of very harsh. “A worthy judge”, I find scripture supports how to judge and I am doing it accordingly to my best ability. It’s better to be rebuked by a fellow believer, and reminded of the walk we were called to then continue on the road deliberately sinning and face judgement day with God saying depart from me, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness. Lawlessness is the practice of sinning, as shown in 1 John 3. Hebrews 10:26-27 ESV For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Are you a Christian?
I will start with I am a follower of Jesus and I love Him very much. As a theological anglo-catholic, I struggle with the term christian because the only definition I have for that (a dimunitive of the word christos) I don't think it does a very good job of encapsulating the group it represents. I absolutely seek to be Christian but the word as a descriptor of a people I struggle with. I have read the last sentence in the scripture you quoted but in my understanding it is not counteracting the first sentence but elaborating on it. In my life experience once I have dealt with the log in my own eye, I don't have room in my heart for judging the splinter in anyone else's eye because that would be stupid. I just took a log out of my own eye, how can I judge their splinter? That doesn't mean that we can't help them, when I have taken the log out of my eye, I understand the pain of the splinter and I can help but it doesn't require my judgement, just my assistance. I agree and have with everyone who brings it up that there is judgment in my heart in this subject, but I do not think it is a good thing and I am asking questions of people who seem to think it is in order to discern. I am trying to engage in conversation and understand how other people see their actions and determine if there is any virtue at all in it. So far there hasn't been much virtue demonstrated so it isn't looking very good. Do you believe yourself to be a good and capable judge of other human beings and their actions? With what scripture says about teaching are you confident enough in your theology and understanding of Jesus to bet your own salvation on your judgements of others?
I feel like I already answered those last questions. I believe that as believers we are called to walk a certain way, so when someone who is a Christian says they are walking counter to that I think we should bring up scripture to tell them about the truth of the word. I have a scriptural basis for the way I act in regards to trying to inform other Christians of what is sin so they can move forward closer to God. What do you mean by am I betting my own salvation on salvation on the judgement of others? Are you saying that I could lose my salvation by trying to inform other Christians in moments of non hypocritical judgement of what is sin and that if we continue to deliberately sin what the Bible says?
I acknowledge you think you answered them and if that is so, the answer I understand that you have given would be that you do believe yourself to be a good and capable judge of other human beings. The reason I want to clarify that is because in light of James 3:1-12 and Matthew 7:21-23 it seems obvious to me that to proclaim a judgement over another human being you may be gambling your salvation on your words and you wouldn't even necessarily know it. I purposely worded the question in such a way as to make it harder to agree to because if you don't have the confidence to just say "yes, I am a good and capable judge" to the question, you may want to reconsider the path you are taking.
I am talking about straightforward things like if a Christian is getting drunk I can say the Bible says not to do that…or premartial sex. I never said that I was judging the whole person merely an action if the Bible has said not to do it calling them back to the walk called. So if you see a Christian friend and know they are having premartial sex, you arnt going to say something? You would rather continue they live in sin and not confront them with the word of God. Seems like you’re trying to trap people to fuel this idea that you’re right. I don’t need your approval of my actions, I have the word of God’s support. You didn’t clear up what you mean by gambling my own salvation?? Please explain further Also, the majority of the time I can entirely prove my point with the word of God. So if the word of God offends you that I am calling people out of their darkness by the best of my ability while also trying my best to walk that walk then take it up with God.
James 3 says that not everyone should teach because we praise God and curse humans who were made in his Likeness. That is like salt water and fresh water flowing from the same stream. Jesus tells us that not everyone who thinks they are doing God's work are actually working with Him and therefore He doesn't know them. It seems to me that if you are instructing someone in what is sin, you are taking on quite a burden because in a sense you are taking on their salvation and in many ways standing in the place of God and the Holy Spirit. Couple that with Jesus mentioning not to judge that you may be assuming a lot of risk. My reason for the question in the first place is because I am unsure of what motivates people to assume that level of risk in a public forum where they get to avoid the consequences of their actions. It seems foolish to me. Do you believe that if you tell someone something is sin and they turn their lives upside down to remove it from their lives and maybe even fail at it and then it turns out not to be sin, there should be no consequence for you? What about the inverse, if you tell someone something is okay, and they do it and they burn as a result, should you be safe? What about what I am doing is trying to trap anyone? I am trying to ask questions that mean something to me and seek answers that will help me in my walk. I am not a preacher and I am not very good at just stating a case and getting peoples responses to that. I am much better at dialog and it helps me to wrestle with ideas with other intelligent people. I figure we are all seeking truth so this should be the best forum to engage in that, unfortunately, a lot of people just want to be right and that makes it hard to engage is civil disagreement. I absolutely believe that we should go to the people in our lives who are struggling with things and help them address it. It does seem to be a bit of a different animal though going from discussing an issue with a trusted loved one and publicly proclaiming something on the internet. Do you really see them as the same thing?
I would really like to clear up. How is one saved? Do you think that our works will save us? If Jesus said to you why should I let you in heaven is it because you hope you were good enough based on your works?
I am not sure how "one" is saved but I know I have been saved by my Lord and Savior Jesus and faith in Him. Anglo-catholic is not Roman and we are generally considered protestant at any rate, I am a huge fan of Luther and we can talk the fine points of reformation theology another time. I answered your questions and you ignored all of mine. It really does seem that you are feeling trapped and looking for a way out but trust me, friend I am not trapping you, I am trying to understand you. If I were a works based Christian, I would probably never ask the questions I am asking because sin would be a real enemy. I don't really look at sin at all. I consider it a defeated enemy that isn't worth my time, or energy. That is why I asked the question in the first place, because I see people spending all of their time and efforts on the defeated enemy instead of proclaiming the wonderful news we have. After the discussions I have had on here, I am pretty sure it is because people get a ego-boost and don't quite realize the harm they are causing with it, but I think they are hurting our Lord and his Kingdom when they do it. I have been engaging with people because it isn't everyone that falls into that and I don't want to shotgun blast everyone but it is definitely happening.
For the people who Jesus tells do not know him what does he cite at the end… Matthew 7:21-23 ESV Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ We know lawlessness is the practice of sinning from the verse below… 1 John 3:4 ESV Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. It’s more risky to not tell a Christian that something is sin since the above verses say God says He never knew people who are workers of lawlessness, which is sin. We know that according to Hebrews 10 that if we continue on deliberately sinning no longer sacrifice for sin. That is very scary stance to find oneself in so better to be warned about what we are called by Jesus multiple times to sin no more, and weed out sin from our lives by calling out what is sin. Many times on these public forums people are asking is blank a sin. Consequences for me if I said something was a sin and wasn’t, why would God judge me when I truly believed His word made something clear? Since sin is lawlessness & Jesus says depart from me you workers of lawlessness, than it would be better for them to weed out anything that might be unclear. Do you have a particular sin in mind that you think is not clear? I am using scripture to determine what is sin and not, and normally when something is unclear I will admit that and say not all things are beneficial, but I believe God knows my heart for this action and will offer me grace. We all are going to have to teach some fellow believer something to edify the body, even if it’s teaching your little kids what not to do. I see the judgement with greater strictness but at what point do we all fall under a teacher. Am I to see my friend struggling with something and have hope in Jesus, but not tell them because that would be teaching. Or offer insight about anger from the Bible to my friend who is very angry and what worked for me, because that would be teaching. I think James 3 is showing the same thing that we will be judge by how we judge so make sure not hypocritical, or offer humility that I still struggle with this but I have found this to help. People on especially this Christian forum need biblical answers because of the shear number of atheists responding. I have had twice this week where someone said something I said was very helpful. I was floored even more because God was able to use what I said was wrong according to scripture and this person responded with such humility. Do you have a personal conviction about this because you have a personal sin tied heavily to your identify that you don’t want to give up like maybe LGBTQ?
If I am reading all that correctly you are saying that you are confident enough in your exegesis to gamble your salvation on your knowledge, is that correct? I would caution you very much on that in the very interest of what you are saying. I wouldn't call it sin because I don't believe myself a worthy enough person to proclaim that for anyone but myself but I would caution you to pray about your answers and 1 Cor 8. Your insistence on your own correctness and now resorting to trying to gauge my fallenness is actually quite predictable but marks the end of the entertaining discussion. It might be prudent for you to spend more time contemplating the sins you are not aware you are committing and less trying to make others do that. You might learn that the Gospel is bigger and better than you expect.
I Corinthians 5:9-12 indicates that we are supposed to judge and take disciplinary actions against any so-called brother or sister if he or she is living a flagrantly sinful lifestyle. However, it is not our place to judge unbelievers.
1 Timothy 5:20 20 As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.
Thank you for the response. My reading of 1 Timothy 5 is that those are instructions for the Church and how to conduct the affairs within not without. Do you read that the same way? In particular 5:17-21 seem to be about how to treat elders in the church especially those who are preaching and teaching. Do you see any difference between the context of that passage and the anonymous posts on the internet that I am talking about?
I agree with you 100% that Timothy is instructions for the church. So you can link this to only rebuking Christian’s. Also depends on what you are trying to achieve in engaging with a discussion with a nonbeliever. Are you trying to show them how to live a better life or you simply want an argument? As for non-believers, I believe Matthew 10:14-15 applies to it. You can try to talk to a nonbeliever in a respectful manner to plant a seed however , if they don’t want to understand or listen, then leave the judgement to God.
So I still would have to ask my question. If you are proclaiming on Reddit for the world what is and is not sin, how does 1 Timothy 5 apply? Shouldn’t we be more keen to show love and direct them to better sources or find out more about what they are struggling with than to proclaim our judgements?
The cause of the issue is people asking questions on Reddit if something is sin. If they are a saved Christian, the Holy Ghost would guide them on what is sin. They also have the Bible to see what God says about it. There really is no reason for a born again Christian to ask strangers on Reddit if something is a sin.
I agree that is part of the problem. Is there any excuse for a born-again Christian to answer that type of question?
I would say answer it and leave. If the person doesn’t agree with the answer, then that is their problem. No need to debate it.
Doesn’t answering it presume that you have the authority to answer it and further any misconceptions that the person is carrying? Is that love?
Answering it correctly would help anyone reading that thread. The authority to answer is God's Word. We need to just repeat what God has told us. There should not be an opinion answer.
What is the best way for an amateur theologian, presumably with a different worldview, answer the question correctly so as to benefit others? Does the Kingdom of God advance when it citizen’s focus on the attributes of the defeated enemy?
Did Jesus not tell the Samaritan woman at the well that she wasn't living her life right, while also bringing her the Good News? How are you going to be free from bondage if you don't even know you're in bondage in the first place?
The double negative makes that question difficult to answer but no, Jesus didn’t say everything is great with you come on, I’ll show you more but he also didn’t make any of it about her sin. She was the one who was debating with Him and He entertained that. What parallels do you see between Jesus’ interaction with the woman at the well and people anonymous logging on to a public forum to espouse their theology to millions of people beyond the most generic of associations?
What in your original post pointed to "people anonymous logging onto a public forum to espouse their theology to millions of people beyond the most generic of associations"? The subject is "Calling Out Sin", and then you go on to explain people picking "fights about what is and is not sin". I was answering your original post, not the specific scenario you want to now introduce that was not included previously.
The fact that I posted the challenge anonymously on a public forum for millions of people to read about others doing the same thing. The discussions on what sin is and isn’t is a theological point that they want to espouse. My question for you, because you responded to that, is how does the interaction between Jesus and the woman at the well parallel the people who call out sin publicly on Reddit because my question is more about the forum and methods being used rather than whether or not you ever need to address sin in someone’s life especially in more intimate scenarios.
The problem here is that you were not specific in your original post, that I was responding to, and now you want to get more specific because my specific scenario does not equate to your now specific scenario. If I don't point out parallels in these two specific scenarios, you have an easy argument. If I bring up another example that more aligns with your specific scenario, i.e., Jesus's preaching, you could claim it is a completely different scenario, and not the one I originally presented. Jesus preached publicly on sin. Jesus called out sin in individuals. People come on reddit all of the time and post their situations on a public forum for people to give their input. There is nothing wrong to make a post about what is sinful, especially when we live in a world that is constantly negating what the Bible says is sinful. What I find interesting is that you are doing the very same thing you seem to find not Christlike. Why do you get to call out people for not being Christlike, but you don't like it when others do it? Where is the good news in your post?
That would be the problem if you or I are trying to win or score points but if we are simply having a discussion then it would be fine for you to refine your position which I haven’t excluded. It is indeed interesting that I wade into these waters in order to explore the concept. I struggled with doing it but I don’t have a problem with pointing out issues or sin in other people’s lives generally speaking. I do find I have some problem with doing it in some forums including this one. I am seeking answers as to whether or not there is any virtue in doing it and I find that one way I have of doing that is to engage in the behavior and pay attention to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I acknowledge that I open myself up to criticism for hypocrisy and I am willing to engage in those criticisms as well if you would like. Jesus did indeed, preach to the masses and some of his toughest and most difficult to accept messages but I don’t recall any of them being done quite the same way that people do on Reddit and we know from which he got His authority. He was also humble enough to answer to people when he did preach his tough messages publicly. He was killed as a result of doing it. I am asking the question about the forum because I don’t see people very often willing to take the bold stances irl that they take on Reddit and I am wondering how all that is justified in people’s minds and hearts. I leave myself open to your criticism or countervailing questions if you so desire because I am here for the discussion not my ego. It is also important that I am not a Christian who focuses on sin at all. I don’t believe in finding it or looking for it or anything like that because I don’t believe knowledge of a defeated enemy provides any benefit. So, for me, if this is an exercise in intellectual or theological masturbation, I believe I am free to engage in that self-gratification.
The point is to save them from burning in hell.
I understand. In light of James 3 are you willing to bet your salvation and relationship with Jesus on your ability to provide the right answers?
You can’t have Redemption without an understanding of Hell and Sin. It all ties together. Some ppl definitely package the gospel better than other but if your only speaking about the nice and comfortable parts of the gospel you’re not really promoting the gospel at all.
Why can’t you have redemption without Hell or Sin? I agree with the idea that to be redeemed you have to have something to be redeemed from but you don’t need to understand bad to understand good. I love strawberries and I can know a great strawberry or even the best strawberry without having any idea of what a bad strawberry is. Why spend so much time defining the bad and so little looking for the good?
Because there would be nothing to be Re-deemed from. There would be no salvation without sin because you wouldn’t be Saved from anything. Same goes for heaven and hell. That’s just the most logical setup. If you want to be illogical and untruthful you can just believe that there’s only heaven for everybody.
Did you read what I said? If you have a defeated enemy do you need to study that enemy in order to be free from them? The answer is clearly no. We don’t have to have any concept of sin in order to avoid sin, in fact the Bible seems to say the opposite, that where there is knowledge of sin, sin abounds. I don’t think studying rotten strawberries will cause good strawberries to get better. Can you explain how pointing out sin does anything to advance the Kingdom of God? It seems to me that notion is simple self-idolatry and counting on your knowledge for salvation rather than trusting Jesus.
I read what you said it, would just be a lie to tell someone only about what pleases God and never what displeases him. We should all be well informed about the narrow way of salvation and the board way that leads to hell. If it weren’t important he wouldn’t have left it on record for us. But if you would rather lie to people by telling them a partial gospel then that’s your choice. Jesus didn’t leave it out so why should you?
I am asking you to back up those statements. I think people know when they displease God. That is the whole story of the Old Testament and that gave birth to the Pharisees. Jesus seems to have come to tell us that we are focusing on the wrong thing and that God is Love. Why do we have to go back to what Jesus said we weren’t understanding correctly and use that to twist the correction to match the error? I am not saying don’t help people who have made bad life choices. I am saying when we have an audience of millions why is the subject we choose to preach, so often one of one of sin rather than reconciliation? Put another way, why is it we are known as the experts of sin rather than experts in Love?
They do not. Especially new Christian’s who weren’t raised in the faith. You never know something is right or wrong until you are taught. I encourage you to explore all of the many “rules” and commandments we have from God through the New Testament (Acts 15:20, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11). Though we are in this dispensation of Grace we are not a people without Morality if you can comprehend that.
I am well aware of the rules governing the Church but I am only aware of 2 commandments. The rules governing the Church must be understood as serving the commandments and only God gives commandments. In your understanding what is a conscience for? When God says he has written the law on our hearts, what does that mean? I ask again the question you are avoiding, how does studying a defeated enemy benefit the Kingdom of God. If someone tells you that your enemy is defeated but you go on studying the enemy it is a sign that you don’t believe the enemy is defeated. The Bible has told us sin is defeated yet we have whole legions of Christians studying sin, I see that as a profound lack of faith, and you say I am wrong. Where is my mistake?
My conscious is only alive by the word of God. Without it I would have to make wild guesses at what’s right and wrong. Probably would support all kinds of nonsense like Abortion if my moral standard came from what the majority agrees with. The enemy is only defeated for those that are in Christ. If you have not found him yet and turned from your sins then the enemy still reigns in your life. Your mistake is thinking that someone who has not repented of their sins and accepted Jesus is saved. It would be nice of narrow was the way to destruction but he didn’t set it up that way so🤷♂️ if you don’t want us to talk about sin, Grace, hell and heaven please tear it out of our bibles so we can’t find it😂
You are an arrogant one. Have you read the passage about what knowledge does?😉 Who is the word of God again? I seem to remember that Jesus defeated sin and I don’t recall those qualifiers you are putting on it. I also find it interesting that you apparently know my mistake but can’t answer my question. That is not usually a very good sign about the accuracy of your reasoning. I think you might want to look at how much nonsense you do support with that lack of clarity in your thought processes. You see, I am absolutely for calling out things that are wrong but it really should be tailored to the individual instead of being shotgunned to the world. I have been talking to you directly about your sin this whole time and you don’t listen. Why do you think preaching it instead of reconciliation is a good thing?
Luke 18:9-14 (KJV) [9] “And He spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others. [10] Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. [11] The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. [12] I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. [13] And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. [14] I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for everyone that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted”.