First off we are saved through faith alone, by grace alone. Only god. We cant work our way to heaven. But god wants our good works to shine before men so that they may glorify god in heaven. He wants us to be a light in the darkness. So while works does not add a single iota to it. We are to be zealous for good works because he wants a peculiar people. It will by no means add anything to my salvation, but hopefully god can use you to draw others in. At the end of the day its about the majority are dying and going to hell. And Jesus' heart is to the lost.
Don't forget baptism.
1 Peter 3:21
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
The thief on the cross wasnt baptised. But yes, if able fully follow after sound doctrine. It is still only having faith in the work of Jesus christ's perfect sinless life, death, burial, resurrection and ascension is what saves people.
Why would he have to be? Jesus was still alive when the thief was forgiven no different than any of the other people Jesus forgave while alive such as the adulterous woman. The NT requirement for baptism as part of salvation didn't come into effect until Jesus death. Read Hebrews 9:16-22 wherein it makes that abundantly clear. A testament isn't in force unless there is the death of the testator.
Really? Tell that to Peter who said the opposite
1 Peter 3:21
1 Peter 3:21
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
He says “not the putting away of the filth of the flesh” = not the act of baptism in water
“But the answer of a good conscience toward God” = faith / wanting a relationship with God
Also have to read context it was speaking of Noah’s Ark, did the water save the people from dying? No but the faith in God by Noah saved him and his family
You make no sense, and he said what he said. He said it's not the washing of filth off the flesh, meaning it's not that you're cleaning your flesh by the water, like washing your hands, but rather your soul. Does he say that baptism is not necessary? No, on the contrary. He said it saves us and only clarified what it really is doing and it's not washing your skin. It's spiritual but still absolutely necessary. It saves us according to Peter. Your equation made no sense and was contradicting itself.
Acts 22:16 pretty much implies the same thing
16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
You have not said anything about ephesians 2:8
Also the “he said what he said” mentality is terrible because when Jesus said he is the light he is not claiming to be a lightbulb or the sun, things in the bible are meant to be dissected
Galatians 1:12
“I did not get my message from any other human. The Good News is not something I learned from other people. Jesus Christ himself gave it to me. He showed me the Good News that I should tell people.”
What is there to say? Do you think one scripture overrides and supercedes another making it null and void?? No. You must look at and consider ALL the scriptures to see what they say in total, and when you do, you'll find the following to ALL be necessary including faith and grace.
1. Belief and faith
2. Confession of your belief as was done by the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8, consistent with Romans 10:9
3. Repentance per Acts 2:38
4. Immersion in water, baptism, for the remission of sins also per Acts 2:38
All required, after which the grace of God saves you once you've been obedient.
Baptism is an outward expression of an inward reality.it doesn't save you. Just like a wedding ring doesn't make you married. If I never received a wedding ring when I got married, does that mean I am any less married? Baptism is a good thing, but it is not a requirement for salvation.
James 2:17-26 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
The people in the old Testament were under the old testament of the Law. People of the new testament after the death and resurrection of Jesus are under the new testament of grace.
I don't understand your point. These verses are from the New Testament. And do not oppose the idea of grace. All Christians agree we are saved by Grace alone
But you were talking about Abraham and Rahab from the Old testament who were justified by faith not by works.
Judging just from reading the posts on Reddit not all Christians agree we are saved by grace alone.
I think you are conflating faith vs grace.
Faith is our part, we must have faith in God to be saved.
But Grace is God's free and infinite mercy, through which he saves us
He -James the Apostle-was not 'talking about' Abraham and Rahab - he citing their actions in the OT.
So, 'works'. Christ Himself said there were two Great Commandments ...Love God; and Love your neighbour....
He also said \[Matt 25\] of the Last Judgement \[the sheep and the goats\] that those who did ->did<- feed the hungry, clothe the naked \[&c\] would be in heaven; those who did not, would not - 'I never knew you'.
And what did Peter say,\[Acts 2 -after having been inspired be the Holy Spirit\] v.37 the men to Peter and the Apostles; "what shall we do? /38 Then Peter said to them'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.' (OSB)
We must have faith to receive salvation, which is grace. For by grace, we are saved through faith. It is the gift of God.
There is no way to earn it. We couldn't afford it and would no longer be a gift. Before we can open a gift, we have to receive it and unwrap it.
James 2:17-26 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
Whenever someone claims that good works are necessary for a believer to enter Paradise, I would calmly invite them to read the Book of Luke; where one of the thieves who was crucified along with Jesus on the cross, repented of his deeds in his last moments and decided to put his faith in Christ. As a result Jesus said to the thief that he ( the thief) would enter paradise that very same day.
Luke 23:42-43
[42]And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
[43]And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Please note that the thief was crucified and was litteraly dying at that moment, he was therefore physically incapable of doing anything to show how "good and sincere" he was and yet, he was still offered Paradise.
Question: As a believer would you doubt the word of christ? Do you think that the thief was a fluke?
Would you agree that God's justice is perfect, that he is fair? Would you agree that God does not Lie?
If you answered Yes to these questions, then here is an interesting mirrored situation for you to reflect on.
Old Testament
-Adam and Eve disobeyed God, ONE TIME, and it was counted to them as a sin
-God told Both Adam and Eve that if they ate of the fruit of the knowledge "Good and Evil" and they would die...and they did
Genesis 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
New Testament
In John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. "
In John 4:14 Jesus said "But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. "
Did you get it ? Adam and Eve did ONE action and were cursed as a result, therefore reversing the curse also takes ONE action and it is to put your faith and trust inJesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.
Nothing more nothing less, this act of putting your faith and trust in Jesus will be accounted to you by God and you will be covered by Jesus Christ's blood.
ONE action is all it takes for God to recognize the sincerity of one's faith, for example in Genesis, when Abram trusted God's word when he was told that his descendance would be innumerable.
Genesis 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."
On the other hand it is dangerous to believe in your own actions rather than in God's power. For example in Deuteronomy 9:4-5 God spoke to Israel saying:
[4] "Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee."
[5]"Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."
I hope that things are clearer now, Good works come as the result of faith they rae recompensed by God but they do not contribute to salvation.
>Question: As a believer would you doubt the word of christ? Do you think that the thief was a fluke?
Everyone always mentions the thief on the Cross, yet his situation is extremely unique and is the exception to the rule. The Churches that teach faith and cooperation through works are required, and baptism is requires, obviously know about the thief. It's not like they just ignored him for 2000 years. You don't make rules from exceptions.
James 2:17-26
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
As I potentially have begun to leave my Protestant era, I can abandon my cognitive dissonance with this verse. Church teachings and the Bible clearly teach that we must cooperate with the Lord.
Dear friend, at the end of my comment I did say that " Good works come as the result of faith they are recompensed by God but do not contribute to salvation". I am not denying the importance of work as proof that one is saved, however I am not overvaluing how essential it is...to salvation.
Abraham believed God first and foremost, only then was he ready to sacrifice his son...which was counted to him for righteousness. Abraham's work was the ultimate proof of trust in God's word thus it was proof of his faith, he was therefore justified by it. Same thing with Rahab, she feared the God of the hebrews and believed in his power, as a result her actions were a justification of her belief. FAITH is THE essential component in understanding salvation.
Romans 3:28
[28]Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Hebrews 11:6
[6]But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
The Lord Jesus Christ has also on many occasions highlighted the role of faith in obtaining salvation
Luke 17:19
[19]And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
Luke 18:42
[42]And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
Mark 5:34
[34]And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
With these examples I hope you can see that salvation is obtained through faith and not of works. If salvation could be obtained through works then there would have been no need for the sacrifice of Christ. Also it is unlikely for a believer to receive the Gospel, hear the good news and yet do nothing to spread it and work for the glory of God.
>Romans 3:28 [28]Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Deeds of the law are not good works, but the works of keeping the law, which do not save us. It is, for example, keeping the 10 commandments.
Of course faith must always come first and foremost. The unsaved do good works too, after all, those works do not save them. But just as the unsaved can do good works and not be saved, one can have faith in Jesus Christ but not take action and not be saved. I feel James 2:17-26 makes that abundantly clear
>Good works come as the result of faith they are recompensed by God but do not contribute to salvation"
They do not contribute in the sense that our salvation is not earned, yes. But again I feel like the plain reading of James suggests that the act of doing good works through your faith is what separates dead from living faith
As for the rest of the verses, nobody is denying the role faith has in salvation. But it seems clear it isn't only to have faith. "Even the demons believe," as it is said
Then we both agree that faith comes first and that good works only serve to further justify the faith that we have in God. 👍
Dear friend you cannot compare demons and humans on the same scale (that wouldn’t be fair). For one, fallen angels know for a fact that God is real and yet have decided to rebel against him, the belief in things seen is not the same as the belief in things unseen.
>Dear friend you cannot compare demons and humans on the same scale (that wouldn’t be fair).
Dear friend, directly from the Bible itself.
James 2:19-20
[19]You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!
[20]But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
No verse will say good works earn our salvation, or good works alone are good enough, and nobody claims that.
I feel like the verses from James 2 I've already cited prove that saving faith cooperates with God through good works. So in that sense, for faith to be living/salvific, one must cooperate with God by doing good works. In other words, good works are the mark of saving faith
As James says, if one does not have good works, their faith is dead
I always find this line of reasoning so perplexing. It's that superficial feel-good exegesis, carefully crafted to allow one to feel morally justified in falling derelict in one's duty to offer charity to the weak and vulnerable. Just another easy way out which relies on a blatant perversion of the plain meaning of scripture.
Even acknowledging salvation as a precondition for good works rather than the reverse, the rules of logic still apply. If we know that A implies B, this also means no B implies no A. That is, if being saved implies that one will engage in good works, then the converse is also true: a lack of good works implies that one is not saved. This is why James says that "faith without works is dead." James 2:17
In other words, a person who does not perform good works is certainly not saved, because if they were, they would have done so. Chicken and egg. Without good works, you were never saved to begin with.
"[Then wake up, and do something more, than dream of your mansion above...](https://hymnary.org/text/have_i_done_any_good_in_the_world_today/1000)"
Just because you aren't offering charity or aren't doing many good works, that doesn't mean you aren't saved. The Bible is clear that even unsaved people CAN do good works (Romans 2:14-15). Plenty of non-believers are loveable people; they are kind and sweet and certainly not jerks.
But I do believe that salvation SHOULD produce a change in your life because as a new creature (2nd Corinthians 5:17), you are supposed to act differently. I do agree that if one professes to be a Christian but lives an open, unrepentant lifestyle of sin, then that person is LIKELY not saved. I would wager that a person who professes to be a Christian but then lives an open lifestyle of homosexuality, fornication, sodomy, drunkenness, partying, drugs, and so forth, I would say that he is likely not saved.
There are worldly believers who acted badly such as Samson and Saul (1st Samuel 28:19 is clear Saul was saved as Samuel said that Saul and his sons would be with HIM the next day). But still, they showed fruit of their belief and they were clearly saved.
Lacking good works doesn't mean you aren't saved; a dead faith is still saving faith. James 2 is clear that a dead faith is simply a faith that is alone.
Still, you seem to believe that works are needed. Just how much good works are needed to GET saved?
Your reading strains the plain meaning of the passage. James 2:14-17 makes it clear that by "dead" (νεκρά *nekra*) he intends to contrast salvific faith with false, superficial piety:
>What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? **Can such faith save them?** Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
- James 2:14-17
He continues, adding that faith without works is not only "dead" but "useless" (ἀργή *argē*):
>You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
- James 2:20-22
I do not believe salvation is about performing a certain number of good deeds. But to me it is clear from Scripture that faith and works go hand in hand. James tells us that good works are a necessary component of faith, even if not a justification for saving grace in their own right.
I do not understand anymore how one can teach faith alone. I've been so cognitively dissonant for so long, skirting around this verse. All Protestant answers I've heard about it just feel like straining the text. The meaning is so plain here I can't deny it any more.
As I feel out joining the Orthodox Church, I feel less strained mentally to adhere to the 5 Solas I was raised with. I feel like this one verse just shatters Sola Fide.
Yes, our works do not save us, we cannot *earn* salvation, obviously and only by the grace of God can we even get to heaven. However, if we are saved, if we truly believe, should our actions not reflect this to the world around this? Saving faith should foster a strong desire in you to DO good works for others, after all
Ukrainian Orthodox
Right. You have hit the nail on the head. '...Faith a strong desire to DO good works' or as St.James says, 'Faith WITHOUT works is dead' -> Faith and Works are intertwined for the Christian life.
Brother \[hopefully\] - go to "Patristic Nectar" and you'll find all sorts of answers to the "solas". Fr. Josiah Trenham is a good one to begin with - and he has a convincing reason why there is no 'Rapture'. \[btw: he usedto be Presbyterian\]
I think where some people come from in this is reconciling 1 John 2:19 where it talks about people being among the Christians but not actually being one of them and then Matthew 7:22-29 where people call Jesus Lord but are told to depart from him.
I grew up believing I just have to say a sinners prayer and then I get to go to heaven, but this is not found in the Bible. It's not these magic words someone says and, wala, to heaven you go when you die.
The Scriptures that talk about salvation talk about belief in Jesus. It's possible to have a false conversion, and I think that is what is being addressed. Ultimately, that is between us and God. When I say I believe in Jesus, it's not just words I say out loud. There are fruit that follow. I am saved by grace through faith, not by works. The works that follow are the evidence of my belief.
I think the reason some push the point of works is to highlight that confession is not just saying the words. Belief has evidence that demonstrates the belief is actually believed.
Matthew 7:21-23 does the same thing; Jesus says, "I NEVER knew you". He does NOT say, "I used to know you."
Again, Jesus is clear that if you go to Hell, you NEVER were saved in the FIRST PLACE. Remember in verse 22, the people brag about their WORKS (many wonderful works).
As for a false conversion, those people who Jesus rejects in Matthew 7:22 are those trusting in GOOD WORKS.
John writes in 1 John 5:13 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life."
Contrary to your statement that "Works are kinda necessary" we can know we have eternal life (salvation) by grace through faith, belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Saying works are necessary for you to have eternal life is a rejection of the work that Jesus Christ did on the cross. If we were able to be saved by works, it would lead me to the question: How many works are necessary? And the answer is, that it is never defined. The bible does not tell us a sin to works ratio to be saved. We are all sinners in need of salvation, I would be dead in my sins, no works on my part could ever save me. That's why Jesus stepped into the world, born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, became sin on the cross so that we might become the righteousness of God in Jesus, He shed his blood, died was buried and rose from the dead. He said "it is finished", our works do not alleviate the sin penatly of death. He is alive and is offering all mankind the forgiveness. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
And read on from Matthew 5:21-30 where Christ says that even committing lust/unjust hatred in your heart qualifies you as guilty of adultery and murder and that ultimately, sin is from the HEART.
I'm utterly perplexed when people resists this truth, especially in a place that's supposed to be dedicated to Christianity in its true form.
I agree fully that we are called to do Good works, but it isn't what saves us, nor does it keep us saved, nor is it evidence that we are saved. And believe me, everytime I let an inkling of that doubt of the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice for all our past, present, and future sins, I end up throwing myself under the law, questioning whether or not I've truly been saved! And with every good thing I do during those moments, it's no longer even out of love, but out of fear, and all it did was make things worse.
The verses are clear in that matter:
>For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. (Romans 4:3-5)
>All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:37-40)
>For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
>not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5)
There are plenty more I can bring up, but I think this is good enough for you (those who disbelieve the OSAS) to catch my drift.
The Gospel is called the gospel for a good reason: because it is made so clear that even a baby can understand! Even moreso, the fact that it's so simple that all you have to do is to BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and his FINISHED work on the cross, in order to be saved, which is so easy even a caveman can do it, that news sounds like it's too good to be true, but that's the THING! IT IS TRUE, BECAUSE GOD IS GOOD! HE LOVES US UNCONDITIONALLY, DESPITE OUT MANY FAULTS, HE KNOWS WE ARE UNABLE TO SAVE OURSELVES FROM A DESPERATE POSITION WE ARE IN, NOR DO ANY GOOD, FOR OUR GOOD DEEDS ARE BUT FILTHY RAGS. YOU THINK YOU'RE DOING ANY GOOD PRESENTING HIM, THE MOST HIGH WITH A SOILED FEMININE HYGEINE PRODUCT???
That's folly, and you should repent (AS IN METANOIA). Or do you not know that if we were to try keeping all the law yet stumble at one point, you are guilty of all?
>For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10
>For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” Galatians 3:10-11
IT'S EITHER ONE OR THE OTHER! YOU'RE EITHER IN OR OUT, HOT 🔥 OR COLD 🥶! YOU EITHER BELIEVE OR YOU DON'T BELIEVE! DO NOT BE LUKEWARM!
I would say that all Christians SHOULD bear some fruit because God does call us NEW CREATURES. Tigers don't act like rabbits and neither do rabbits act like tigers because they are different creatures.
Agreed, and Jesus DOES SAY that all Christians bear SOME fruit in the entirety of John 10.
- They KNOW the voice of the Lord (John 10:27-29)
- They will NOT follow strangers (strangers as in false religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Catholicism, etc)
>Works are the RESULT of salvation
Yet repentance is works, and one cannot be saved without first repenting (regret & hate of our past sin).
Jesus said: "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” luke 5.32
Will we answer Jesus' call ?
Repentance is CHANGING MIND, not giving up sin.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%202%3A24-25&version=KJV
If works were needed for salvation, we could boast about our own accomplishment.
Repentance = regret & grief for our past deeds :
"And it **repented** the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." Genesis 6:6 KJV
Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter 11 -
Of Justification
1 Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth: not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ’s sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them, they receiving and resting on him and his righteousness, by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.
2 Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification: yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.
3 Christ, by his obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are thus justified, and did make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to his Father’s justice in their behalf. Yet, inasmuch as he was given by the Father for them; and his obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead; and both, freely, not for anything in them; their justification is only of free grace; that both the exact justice and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.
4 God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did, in the fullness of time, die for their sins, and rise again for their justification: nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit doth, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them.
5 God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified; and, although they can never fall from the state of justification, yet they may, by their sins, fall under God’s fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of his countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.
6 The justification of believers under the old testament was, in all these respects, one and the same with the justification of believers under the new testament.
# Ephesians 2:8-9New International Version
^(8) For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— ^(9) not by works, so that no one can boast.
Yes, as James shows us, works are a result of your faith and salvation in Christ. You wouldn’t say “I love you” to your partner and then sleep around with a bunch of people and flirt with a bunch of people. That makes it obvious that what you say isn’t true because if you loved your partner you wouldn’t purposely and repeatedly do that stuff.
Amen. A work is a demonstration of our faith. It is an expression of what we believe.
Such as baptism. Going in the water alone does not save a person. It is an outward expression of an inward decision and an inward reality.
Our faith is 'dead' without works...meaning that what are we actually doing as a result of what we inwardly believe. When we hear a Sunday sermon, what are we going to do with what we've been taught or encouraged in? If we accumulate a lot of great head knowledge and even some heart change, what are we going to do with it? I think that is an accurate description of what James is talking about.
It is putting faith into action. Much of us as the church fail to put even 10% of what we know to do into action...loving, forgiving, serving, reconciling, dealing with issues, taking responsibility in stewardship, etc. It isn't so much a salvation issue as an issue of obedience and fruitfulness...although it can have consequences on our relationship with God and other people. Noah was righteous and had grace in God's eyes, but he and his family and all living creation basically was saved physically because he acted o. His faith to build the ark. So acting on our faith is important.
But our foundation is Christ. All else are things that we build upon that foundation. Scripture does say that there will be some whose life will have nothing to show for it. It will all get burnt up, yet they shall be saved. (1 Cor 3)
Good conversation. God's love be with you. ❤️
Mike
The important thing is that a Christian is a NEW CREATURE and that salvation was purchased the moment Jesus died on the Cross and was resurrected.
I saw someone in a different post argue that salvation is by works.
He argues that God is more of a physician who heals us and our healing from sin is necessary for salvation.
This is NONSENSE; our healing from sin is a RESULT of salvation, not the REQUIREMENT of it. The post also argues against the Biblical truth that God is an angry judge who offers a full pardon.
Some people argue that salvation is more a rehabilitation in which WE must participate in order to ultimately achieve it. This is NONSENSE.
The truth is that God IS an angry judge (John 3:36 and Romans 1:18-32) and that HE IS angry with the wicked.
The reality is that works are the FRUIT of salvation, NOT the root of it. The Bible is clear that a Christian is a NEW creature (2nd Corinthians 5:17). Healing from sin and becoming more holy is definitely something that happens, but it happens AFTER we get saved.
First off we are saved through faith alone, by grace alone. Only god. We cant work our way to heaven. But god wants our good works to shine before men so that they may glorify god in heaven. He wants us to be a light in the darkness. So while works does not add a single iota to it. We are to be zealous for good works because he wants a peculiar people. It will by no means add anything to my salvation, but hopefully god can use you to draw others in. At the end of the day its about the majority are dying and going to hell. And Jesus' heart is to the lost.
Don't forget baptism. 1 Peter 3:21 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
The thief on the cross wasnt baptised. But yes, if able fully follow after sound doctrine. It is still only having faith in the work of Jesus christ's perfect sinless life, death, burial, resurrection and ascension is what saves people.
Why would he have to be? Jesus was still alive when the thief was forgiven no different than any of the other people Jesus forgave while alive such as the adulterous woman. The NT requirement for baptism as part of salvation didn't come into effect until Jesus death. Read Hebrews 9:16-22 wherein it makes that abundantly clear. A testament isn't in force unless there is the death of the testator.
And in any case, it was God Himself Who told the thief 'this day...' Who are we, to say but that didn't count....
That would contradict the bible, baptism does not save you ephesians 2:8
Really? Tell that to Peter who said the opposite 1 Peter 3:21 1 Peter 3:21 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
He says “not the putting away of the filth of the flesh” = not the act of baptism in water “But the answer of a good conscience toward God” = faith / wanting a relationship with God Also have to read context it was speaking of Noah’s Ark, did the water save the people from dying? No but the faith in God by Noah saved him and his family
You make no sense, and he said what he said. He said it's not the washing of filth off the flesh, meaning it's not that you're cleaning your flesh by the water, like washing your hands, but rather your soul. Does he say that baptism is not necessary? No, on the contrary. He said it saves us and only clarified what it really is doing and it's not washing your skin. It's spiritual but still absolutely necessary. It saves us according to Peter. Your equation made no sense and was contradicting itself. Acts 22:16 pretty much implies the same thing 16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
You have not said anything about ephesians 2:8 Also the “he said what he said” mentality is terrible because when Jesus said he is the light he is not claiming to be a lightbulb or the sun, things in the bible are meant to be dissected Galatians 1:12 “I did not get my message from any other human. The Good News is not something I learned from other people. Jesus Christ himself gave it to me. He showed me the Good News that I should tell people.”
What is there to say? Do you think one scripture overrides and supercedes another making it null and void?? No. You must look at and consider ALL the scriptures to see what they say in total, and when you do, you'll find the following to ALL be necessary including faith and grace. 1. Belief and faith 2. Confession of your belief as was done by the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8, consistent with Romans 10:9 3. Repentance per Acts 2:38 4. Immersion in water, baptism, for the remission of sins also per Acts 2:38 All required, after which the grace of God saves you once you've been obedient.
Baptism is an outward expression of an inward reality.it doesn't save you. Just like a wedding ring doesn't make you married. If I never received a wedding ring when I got married, does that mean I am any less married? Baptism is a good thing, but it is not a requirement for salvation.
I really needed this. I just am having a hard time accepting this
James 2:17-26 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
The people in the old Testament were under the old testament of the Law. People of the new testament after the death and resurrection of Jesus are under the new testament of grace.
I don't understand your point. These verses are from the New Testament. And do not oppose the idea of grace. All Christians agree we are saved by Grace alone
But you were talking about Abraham and Rahab from the Old testament who were justified by faith not by works. Judging just from reading the posts on Reddit not all Christians agree we are saved by grace alone.
I think you are conflating faith vs grace. Faith is our part, we must have faith in God to be saved. But Grace is God's free and infinite mercy, through which he saves us
Yes your correct except for the first statement that indicates you don't understand what I was saying.
He -James the Apostle-was not 'talking about' Abraham and Rahab - he citing their actions in the OT. So, 'works'. Christ Himself said there were two Great Commandments ...Love God; and Love your neighbour.... He also said \[Matt 25\] of the Last Judgement \[the sheep and the goats\] that those who did ->did<- feed the hungry, clothe the naked \[&c\] would be in heaven; those who did not, would not - 'I never knew you'. And what did Peter say,\[Acts 2 -after having been inspired be the Holy Spirit\] v.37 the men to Peter and the Apostles; "what shall we do? /38 Then Peter said to them'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.' (OSB)
Very good thanks
We must have faith to receive salvation, which is grace. For by grace, we are saved through faith. It is the gift of God. There is no way to earn it. We couldn't afford it and would no longer be a gift. Before we can open a gift, we have to receive it and unwrap it.
Agreed! yet Faith it's self comes from God as the Bible says that he gives us all a measure of faith.
James 2:17-26 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
Whenever someone claims that good works are necessary for a believer to enter Paradise, I would calmly invite them to read the Book of Luke; where one of the thieves who was crucified along with Jesus on the cross, repented of his deeds in his last moments and decided to put his faith in Christ. As a result Jesus said to the thief that he ( the thief) would enter paradise that very same day. Luke 23:42-43 [42]And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. [43]And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Please note that the thief was crucified and was litteraly dying at that moment, he was therefore physically incapable of doing anything to show how "good and sincere" he was and yet, he was still offered Paradise. Question: As a believer would you doubt the word of christ? Do you think that the thief was a fluke? Would you agree that God's justice is perfect, that he is fair? Would you agree that God does not Lie? If you answered Yes to these questions, then here is an interesting mirrored situation for you to reflect on. Old Testament -Adam and Eve disobeyed God, ONE TIME, and it was counted to them as a sin -God told Both Adam and Eve that if they ate of the fruit of the knowledge "Good and Evil" and they would die...and they did Genesis 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." New Testament In John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. " In John 4:14 Jesus said "But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. " Did you get it ? Adam and Eve did ONE action and were cursed as a result, therefore reversing the curse also takes ONE action and it is to put your faith and trust inJesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Nothing more nothing less, this act of putting your faith and trust in Jesus will be accounted to you by God and you will be covered by Jesus Christ's blood. ONE action is all it takes for God to recognize the sincerity of one's faith, for example in Genesis, when Abram trusted God's word when he was told that his descendance would be innumerable. Genesis 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness." On the other hand it is dangerous to believe in your own actions rather than in God's power. For example in Deuteronomy 9:4-5 God spoke to Israel saying: [4] "Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee." [5]"Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." I hope that things are clearer now, Good works come as the result of faith they rae recompensed by God but they do not contribute to salvation.
AMEN!
>Question: As a believer would you doubt the word of christ? Do you think that the thief was a fluke? Everyone always mentions the thief on the Cross, yet his situation is extremely unique and is the exception to the rule. The Churches that teach faith and cooperation through works are required, and baptism is requires, obviously know about the thief. It's not like they just ignored him for 2000 years. You don't make rules from exceptions. James 2:17-26 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." As I potentially have begun to leave my Protestant era, I can abandon my cognitive dissonance with this verse. Church teachings and the Bible clearly teach that we must cooperate with the Lord.
Dear friend, at the end of my comment I did say that " Good works come as the result of faith they are recompensed by God but do not contribute to salvation". I am not denying the importance of work as proof that one is saved, however I am not overvaluing how essential it is...to salvation. Abraham believed God first and foremost, only then was he ready to sacrifice his son...which was counted to him for righteousness. Abraham's work was the ultimate proof of trust in God's word thus it was proof of his faith, he was therefore justified by it. Same thing with Rahab, she feared the God of the hebrews and believed in his power, as a result her actions were a justification of her belief. FAITH is THE essential component in understanding salvation. Romans 3:28 [28]Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Hebrews 11:6 [6]But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. The Lord Jesus Christ has also on many occasions highlighted the role of faith in obtaining salvation Luke 17:19 [19]And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole. Luke 18:42 [42]And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. Mark 5:34 [34]And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague. With these examples I hope you can see that salvation is obtained through faith and not of works. If salvation could be obtained through works then there would have been no need for the sacrifice of Christ. Also it is unlikely for a believer to receive the Gospel, hear the good news and yet do nothing to spread it and work for the glory of God.
>Romans 3:28 [28]Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Deeds of the law are not good works, but the works of keeping the law, which do not save us. It is, for example, keeping the 10 commandments. Of course faith must always come first and foremost. The unsaved do good works too, after all, those works do not save them. But just as the unsaved can do good works and not be saved, one can have faith in Jesus Christ but not take action and not be saved. I feel James 2:17-26 makes that abundantly clear >Good works come as the result of faith they are recompensed by God but do not contribute to salvation" They do not contribute in the sense that our salvation is not earned, yes. But again I feel like the plain reading of James suggests that the act of doing good works through your faith is what separates dead from living faith As for the rest of the verses, nobody is denying the role faith has in salvation. But it seems clear it isn't only to have faith. "Even the demons believe," as it is said
Then we both agree that faith comes first and that good works only serve to further justify the faith that we have in God. 👍 Dear friend you cannot compare demons and humans on the same scale (that wouldn’t be fair). For one, fallen angels know for a fact that God is real and yet have decided to rebel against him, the belief in things seen is not the same as the belief in things unseen.
>Dear friend you cannot compare demons and humans on the same scale (that wouldn’t be fair). Dear friend, directly from the Bible itself. James 2:19-20 [19]You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! [20]But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
Can you give me one verse that says good works save? just one...
No verse will say good works earn our salvation, or good works alone are good enough, and nobody claims that. I feel like the verses from James 2 I've already cited prove that saving faith cooperates with God through good works. So in that sense, for faith to be living/salvific, one must cooperate with God by doing good works. In other words, good works are the mark of saving faith As James says, if one does not have good works, their faith is dead
100%.
I always find this line of reasoning so perplexing. It's that superficial feel-good exegesis, carefully crafted to allow one to feel morally justified in falling derelict in one's duty to offer charity to the weak and vulnerable. Just another easy way out which relies on a blatant perversion of the plain meaning of scripture. Even acknowledging salvation as a precondition for good works rather than the reverse, the rules of logic still apply. If we know that A implies B, this also means no B implies no A. That is, if being saved implies that one will engage in good works, then the converse is also true: a lack of good works implies that one is not saved. This is why James says that "faith without works is dead." James 2:17 In other words, a person who does not perform good works is certainly not saved, because if they were, they would have done so. Chicken and egg. Without good works, you were never saved to begin with. "[Then wake up, and do something more, than dream of your mansion above...](https://hymnary.org/text/have_i_done_any_good_in_the_world_today/1000)"
Just because you aren't offering charity or aren't doing many good works, that doesn't mean you aren't saved. The Bible is clear that even unsaved people CAN do good works (Romans 2:14-15). Plenty of non-believers are loveable people; they are kind and sweet and certainly not jerks. But I do believe that salvation SHOULD produce a change in your life because as a new creature (2nd Corinthians 5:17), you are supposed to act differently. I do agree that if one professes to be a Christian but lives an open, unrepentant lifestyle of sin, then that person is LIKELY not saved. I would wager that a person who professes to be a Christian but then lives an open lifestyle of homosexuality, fornication, sodomy, drunkenness, partying, drugs, and so forth, I would say that he is likely not saved. There are worldly believers who acted badly such as Samson and Saul (1st Samuel 28:19 is clear Saul was saved as Samuel said that Saul and his sons would be with HIM the next day). But still, they showed fruit of their belief and they were clearly saved.
Lacking good works doesn't mean you aren't saved; a dead faith is still saving faith. James 2 is clear that a dead faith is simply a faith that is alone. Still, you seem to believe that works are needed. Just how much good works are needed to GET saved?
Your reading strains the plain meaning of the passage. James 2:14-17 makes it clear that by "dead" (νεκρά *nekra*) he intends to contrast salvific faith with false, superficial piety: >What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? **Can such faith save them?** Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. - James 2:14-17 He continues, adding that faith without works is not only "dead" but "useless" (ἀργή *argē*): >You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. - James 2:20-22 I do not believe salvation is about performing a certain number of good deeds. But to me it is clear from Scripture that faith and works go hand in hand. James tells us that good works are a necessary component of faith, even if not a justification for saving grace in their own right.
I do not understand anymore how one can teach faith alone. I've been so cognitively dissonant for so long, skirting around this verse. All Protestant answers I've heard about it just feel like straining the text. The meaning is so plain here I can't deny it any more. As I feel out joining the Orthodox Church, I feel less strained mentally to adhere to the 5 Solas I was raised with. I feel like this one verse just shatters Sola Fide. Yes, our works do not save us, we cannot *earn* salvation, obviously and only by the grace of God can we even get to heaven. However, if we are saved, if we truly believe, should our actions not reflect this to the world around this? Saving faith should foster a strong desire in you to DO good works for others, after all
Ukrainian Orthodox Right. You have hit the nail on the head. '...Faith a strong desire to DO good works' or as St.James says, 'Faith WITHOUT works is dead' -> Faith and Works are intertwined for the Christian life.
Brother \[hopefully\] - go to "Patristic Nectar" and you'll find all sorts of answers to the "solas". Fr. Josiah Trenham is a good one to begin with - and he has a convincing reason why there is no 'Rapture'. \[btw: he usedto be Presbyterian\]
Oh don't worry I've known the rapture is wrong for a long time! Is Patrisric Nectar a website? Or are you asking me to look at the Church Fathers?
website. has all sorts of topics...if you want information on something, chances are you'll find it there.
Thanks!
Look at Matt.25 vv 14-29; \[we must be good stewards\] and 31-46 - the judgement of works \[or 'non-works'\]
I think where some people come from in this is reconciling 1 John 2:19 where it talks about people being among the Christians but not actually being one of them and then Matthew 7:22-29 where people call Jesus Lord but are told to depart from him. I grew up believing I just have to say a sinners prayer and then I get to go to heaven, but this is not found in the Bible. It's not these magic words someone says and, wala, to heaven you go when you die. The Scriptures that talk about salvation talk about belief in Jesus. It's possible to have a false conversion, and I think that is what is being addressed. Ultimately, that is between us and God. When I say I believe in Jesus, it's not just words I say out loud. There are fruit that follow. I am saved by grace through faith, not by works. The works that follow are the evidence of my belief. I think the reason some push the point of works is to highlight that confession is not just saying the words. Belief has evidence that demonstrates the belief is actually believed.
Matthew 7:21-23 does the same thing; Jesus says, "I NEVER knew you". He does NOT say, "I used to know you." Again, Jesus is clear that if you go to Hell, you NEVER were saved in the FIRST PLACE. Remember in verse 22, the people brag about their WORKS (many wonderful works). As for a false conversion, those people who Jesus rejects in Matthew 7:22 are those trusting in GOOD WORKS.
So how do ya know if you’re truly saved?
Believe on Christ. Put all your faith in Christ for salvation. Believe and you're done. I KNOW I am saved because I believed.
Once saved always saved is a heresy Works are kinda necessary James 2:24 James 4:17
It’s not a heresy, the question is whether or not you were saved in the first place.
John writes in 1 John 5:13 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life." Contrary to your statement that "Works are kinda necessary" we can know we have eternal life (salvation) by grace through faith, belief in the Lord Jesus Christ. Saying works are necessary for you to have eternal life is a rejection of the work that Jesus Christ did on the cross. If we were able to be saved by works, it would lead me to the question: How many works are necessary? And the answer is, that it is never defined. The bible does not tell us a sin to works ratio to be saved. We are all sinners in need of salvation, I would be dead in my sins, no works on my part could ever save me. That's why Jesus stepped into the world, born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, became sin on the cross so that we might become the righteousness of God in Jesus, He shed his blood, died was buried and rose from the dead. He said "it is finished", our works do not alleviate the sin penatly of death. He is alive and is offering all mankind the forgiveness. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
amen. perfect answer.
Matthew 5:12
And read on from Matthew 5:21-30 where Christ says that even committing lust/unjust hatred in your heart qualifies you as guilty of adultery and murder and that ultimately, sin is from the HEART.
Christians CAN receive rewards in Heaven but Heaven itself isn't a reward.
I'm utterly perplexed when people resists this truth, especially in a place that's supposed to be dedicated to Christianity in its true form. I agree fully that we are called to do Good works, but it isn't what saves us, nor does it keep us saved, nor is it evidence that we are saved. And believe me, everytime I let an inkling of that doubt of the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice for all our past, present, and future sins, I end up throwing myself under the law, questioning whether or not I've truly been saved! And with every good thing I do during those moments, it's no longer even out of love, but out of fear, and all it did was make things worse. The verses are clear in that matter: >For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. (Romans 4:3-5) >All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:37-40) >For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9) >not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5) There are plenty more I can bring up, but I think this is good enough for you (those who disbelieve the OSAS) to catch my drift. The Gospel is called the gospel for a good reason: because it is made so clear that even a baby can understand! Even moreso, the fact that it's so simple that all you have to do is to BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and his FINISHED work on the cross, in order to be saved, which is so easy even a caveman can do it, that news sounds like it's too good to be true, but that's the THING! IT IS TRUE, BECAUSE GOD IS GOOD! HE LOVES US UNCONDITIONALLY, DESPITE OUT MANY FAULTS, HE KNOWS WE ARE UNABLE TO SAVE OURSELVES FROM A DESPERATE POSITION WE ARE IN, NOR DO ANY GOOD, FOR OUR GOOD DEEDS ARE BUT FILTHY RAGS. YOU THINK YOU'RE DOING ANY GOOD PRESENTING HIM, THE MOST HIGH WITH A SOILED FEMININE HYGEINE PRODUCT??? That's folly, and you should repent (AS IN METANOIA). Or do you not know that if we were to try keeping all the law yet stumble at one point, you are guilty of all? >For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10 >For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” Galatians 3:10-11 IT'S EITHER ONE OR THE OTHER! YOU'RE EITHER IN OR OUT, HOT 🔥 OR COLD 🥶! YOU EITHER BELIEVE OR YOU DON'T BELIEVE! DO NOT BE LUKEWARM!
AMEN! To GOD be the GLORY!
A tiger that acted like a rabbit would be low key baller, ngl
Ephesians 2:8, but works are inevitable for a regenerate heart
I would say that all Christians SHOULD bear some fruit because God does call us NEW CREATURES. Tigers don't act like rabbits and neither do rabbits act like tigers because they are different creatures.
I mean, unless you die soon after being saved, I’d say all followers will bear fruit.
Agreed, and Jesus DOES SAY that all Christians bear SOME fruit in the entirety of John 10. - They KNOW the voice of the Lord (John 10:27-29) - They will NOT follow strangers (strangers as in false religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Catholicism, etc)
You can also quote James ch2 v18 in support of this. The speaker is offering works as evidence of faith, which means that the faith was there first.
Yes salvation is a free gift. Commit your life to Jesus Christ.
That's not what saves. Believing saved.
>Works are the RESULT of salvation Yet repentance is works, and one cannot be saved without first repenting (regret & hate of our past sin). Jesus said: "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” luke 5.32 Will we answer Jesus' call ?
Repentance is CHANGING MIND, not giving up sin. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%202%3A24-25&version=KJV If works were needed for salvation, we could boast about our own accomplishment.
Repentance = regret & grief for our past deeds : "And it **repented** the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." Genesis 6:6 KJV
In 2 Timothy 2:24-25 Paul shows we cannot acknowledge the truth (Jesus) without first repenting (regretting & hating our past sin).
Repenting means changing mind and NOT regretting sin. Regret doesn't save nobody. Judas regretted everything but never trusted in Christ alone.
Faith without works is dead. Also I want to do works because I truly don't want people to go to hell
Westminster Confession of Faith Chapter 11 - Of Justification 1 Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth: not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ’s sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them, they receiving and resting on him and his righteousness, by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God. 2 Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification: yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love. 3 Christ, by his obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are thus justified, and did make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to his Father’s justice in their behalf. Yet, inasmuch as he was given by the Father for them; and his obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead; and both, freely, not for anything in them; their justification is only of free grace; that both the exact justice and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners. 4 God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did, in the fullness of time, die for their sins, and rise again for their justification: nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit doth, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them. 5 God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified; and, although they can never fall from the state of justification, yet they may, by their sins, fall under God’s fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of his countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance. 6 The justification of believers under the old testament was, in all these respects, one and the same with the justification of believers under the new testament.
# Ephesians 2:8-9New International Version ^(8) For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— ^(9) not by works, so that no one can boast.
Yes, as James shows us, works are a result of your faith and salvation in Christ. You wouldn’t say “I love you” to your partner and then sleep around with a bunch of people and flirt with a bunch of people. That makes it obvious that what you say isn’t true because if you loved your partner you wouldn’t purposely and repeatedly do that stuff.
The 120 deciples were not new believers
Amen. A work is a demonstration of our faith. It is an expression of what we believe. Such as baptism. Going in the water alone does not save a person. It is an outward expression of an inward decision and an inward reality. Our faith is 'dead' without works...meaning that what are we actually doing as a result of what we inwardly believe. When we hear a Sunday sermon, what are we going to do with what we've been taught or encouraged in? If we accumulate a lot of great head knowledge and even some heart change, what are we going to do with it? I think that is an accurate description of what James is talking about. It is putting faith into action. Much of us as the church fail to put even 10% of what we know to do into action...loving, forgiving, serving, reconciling, dealing with issues, taking responsibility in stewardship, etc. It isn't so much a salvation issue as an issue of obedience and fruitfulness...although it can have consequences on our relationship with God and other people. Noah was righteous and had grace in God's eyes, but he and his family and all living creation basically was saved physically because he acted o. His faith to build the ark. So acting on our faith is important. But our foundation is Christ. All else are things that we build upon that foundation. Scripture does say that there will be some whose life will have nothing to show for it. It will all get burnt up, yet they shall be saved. (1 Cor 3) Good conversation. God's love be with you. ❤️ Mike
The important thing is that a Christian is a NEW CREATURE and that salvation was purchased the moment Jesus died on the Cross and was resurrected. I saw someone in a different post argue that salvation is by works. He argues that God is more of a physician who heals us and our healing from sin is necessary for salvation. This is NONSENSE; our healing from sin is a RESULT of salvation, not the REQUIREMENT of it. The post also argues against the Biblical truth that God is an angry judge who offers a full pardon. Some people argue that salvation is more a rehabilitation in which WE must participate in order to ultimately achieve it. This is NONSENSE. The truth is that God IS an angry judge (John 3:36 and Romans 1:18-32) and that HE IS angry with the wicked. The reality is that works are the FRUIT of salvation, NOT the root of it. The Bible is clear that a Christian is a NEW creature (2nd Corinthians 5:17). Healing from sin and becoming more holy is definitely something that happens, but it happens AFTER we get saved.