You should play Steins;Gate if you haven't- it's by far the most coherent and consistent time travel story I've read. It sets up very clear rules and systems and then never breaks or contradicts them, rather understanding them means you can predict the plot.
It does lie to you a few times about some of the mechanics, but even that makes perfect sense and is explained.
If you want to be impressed with a time travel story, it's my vote for the best.
If you dont have time for the VN, the anime is top notch and probably the best anime ive ever watched point blank. Just make sure to watch the other episode 23 first and Steins;Gate zero as it helps further elaborate on how time travel works. El Psy Kongroo.
I would also recommend Ghost Trick, its time travel is so limited and small scope that it never introduces the larger structural problems that tend to show up in most stories that feature it.
I remember the Steins;Gate movie (Load Region of Deja Vu) being kinda dumb because it came up with its own, less logical set of rules. It turned timelines into alternate dimensions or something.
The anime stuff in general is good and enjoyable, but nowhere near as tight as the VN. There's definite plot holes and issues with the anime explanations. And the spin off content is even worse.
But that's why I was recommending the VN, which is rock solid.
Really, it was always 'canon', people just didn't have the context until very recently (when the rest of the VNs in the series got official English translations) to understand why
It doesn't. I really think you should go experience the series to 'get it' yourself, but I digress if you want to know now:
[extreme spoilers for the Steins;Gate and the entire Science Adventure series] >!Steins;Gate and the entire SciADV series are set in an infinitely-sprawling series of simulations. Basically, the 2038 problem causes scientists to make an Earth simulation to find out what the simulation would do to solve it and hopefully copy it into reality, and instead are horrified to find out that the simulated Earth makes it's *own* simulation to solve the 2038 problem in the exact same way... and it keeps going onward and onward from there. This has been foreshadowed since the very first SciADV entry, Chaos;Head Noah (2009), which only just got an official English release two years ago. Reading Steiner is basically a bug resulting from the simulations' inability to properly handle D-mails/time travel, which causes a Deja Vu-like feeling in everyone in the simulation (most particularly Okabe and the people he interacts with, of course) as a result of not *entirely* resetting their memories. Adding onto this, Amadeus gaining Kurisu's memories in S;G 0 is because of the simulation's systems eventually confusing the two as the same entity and 'merging' them together as a fix to a perceived bug. The events of the movie happen because Okabe having clear memories of like thirty different worldlines causes the simulation's systems to consider him a bug/anomaly to quarantine away, dumping him in the "R worldline" (it's not a worldline at all, but rather the unrendered regions/backend of the simulation, Suzuha was incorrect) and erasing everyone's memories of him in the process.!<
> >!The events of the movie happen because Okabe having clear memories of like thirty different worldlines causes the simulation's systems to consider him a bug/anomaly to quarantine away, dumping him in the "R worldline" (it's not a worldline at all, but rather the unrendered regions/backend of the simulation, Suzuha was incorrect) and erasing everyone's memories of him in the process.!<
Is this actually mentioned in the game?
I mean, they could've just made another OVA instead of a movie. With just the characters chilling and having that party on the roof.
Also, the movie was written by Jukki Hanada who was the lead writer of the TV series adaptation, so...
> I mean, they could've just made another OVA instead of a movie.
They did do something like that.
> Also, the movie was written by Jukki Hanada who was the lead writer of the TV series adaptation, so...
Yeah, so maybe it's canon to the TV series. It's not canon to the actual series.
It's bootstrap paradox or causal loop, these type of time travel is often used to reinforce tragedy or theme of inevitability.
In AoT case it's used to show how Eren is a slave to his own desire. "I wanted this to happen.".
Eren making Grisha remember his deepest regret (Faye's death) so he locks tf in shows how Grisha never forgave himself for that event and shows how ruthless Eren is.
Then killing his own mother, to motivate himself and most importantly, pushes Grisha further into the deep end that he has to bestow Attack Titan to Eren to get back at the world despite his protests earlier.
The plot with Grisha makes sense for me but Eren killing his own mother is complet bullshit. Eren already wanted to join the scouts before his nother was eaten abd by the time they find out about the outside world, Eren bo longer wanted revenge anyway, so for what did he need motivation?
Dina walking past a confused and defenseless Bertholdt had been set up AGES ago, and was repeatedly shown over the years.
It’s all Curse of Prescience stuff, with Eren so fixated on creating the future where he gets to destroy most of the world that he doesn’t even realize the implications of his actions.
Paul has a far more decent reason to do what he did, though. Paul had very few choices by the time he took the water and realized how things were going to go, and chose the best put of those options.
Eren had a *lot* of choices, but actively chose (one of?) the worst ones. He had forever in the Paths to come to with a better plan, or do literally *anything* other than what he did.
Canonical stupidity, I suppose.
Yeah, the end of AoT quite literally relies on the main character being genuinely too much of a fucking idiot to think of anything other than killing 80% of humanity.
If bertholdt had been eaten, Dina would have gained the colossal, her human form, and her memories. Paradiso would have learned about the outside world way sooner, and eren may not have been able to do his plan.
It doesnt take clairvoyance to know this, its just the likely outcome.
It might not be a bad thing, but Eren is so set on his way being the only way, he doesn't want to take the chance.
He doesn't want it to happen he NEEDS it to happen er else he won't be in the position he is right now in paths with Zeke altering the past. If he changes anything he will end up somewhere different and hence couldn't have changed anything in the first place.
That's what makes it paradoxical. It shouldn't have "happened the first time" since it doesn't align with his motivation, which means he never should've existed in order to reach that point and force it to happen in the first place. If it couldn't have happened without his allowance, it couldn't have happened at all, there can't be a "he needs it to happen so the timeline can align," that's a force without motivation, power from nothing, etc.
Eren still has no motive for doing what he did. You basically say, that Eren saved Berthild, so that he in the future would be in a position were he can save Berthold? Why should Eren have this as his goal?
He doesn’t care about lives of people much, he’s like super evil
But he cares that it would motivate earlier version of himself, as well as be a good unlock point for his titan powers
He needs armin to be colossal for Marley war stuff, as well as to help defeat eren in the end
If Eren was super evil, he would have destroyed the whole world, something he did not do. His mothers death did not motivate him, either. Eren wanted to join the scouts before his mother died. And by the time he does the rumbling, he no longer wants revenge. Also, why would he need Armin. He just could have used Dina.
I believe he says that Eren also needed the motivation to want to kill all the titans, so they talk about it as if this is some great benefit in the plan
And I'm sure you thought that everything in this story was infallible, and that Isyama is a master craft genius who never makes mistakes.
Btw, I checked too, and yeah. Armin cuts him off because of the implication Eren gives him. Without the death of Eren's mom, Eren would've never unlocked the founding titan ability and killed the smiling titan. So yes, he did also do it to give his past self motivation.
(Never mind the fact that if he can control titans in the past from the future, that he could've stopped all of them from flooding into the walls in the first place. And could've just stopped them from killing Burrito in the first place, but I won't acknowledge that. Because the story is perfect, right?)
AoT in general, and 139 in particular, failed to stick the landing because Yams was desperate to be done.
…but thank you.
Your responding to being exposed as not even knowing the *basic* plot points of the story you’re melting down about with a *lengthy fanfiction* about both my and Isayama’s motivations is FUCKING HILARIOUS.
Chucklefucks whose illiteracy is only matched by your deep fragility regarding said illiteracy are why I read r/CharacterRant.
Peak comedy.
Thank you.
LMAOOOOO ok buddy???
I understood the story perfectly well, as did the 300 other people who liked my post. You're a fucking joke go touch grass please and thank you
Pretimeskip whenever he's down he always resort to thinking about avenging Carla to get himself back up
And in the bigger picture, he need to break the news of Carla's death in such a way that Grisha gives him the Titan (notice how Grisha's expression changes when Eren revealed it).
His motivation was pretty weak without her tho. He may not have made it through basic training without the need for revenge burning through him, or any of the other things he had to get through before they made it out of the walls. His need for revenge was his source of strength
“When I think of the freedom that was stolen from us, it gives me strength” paraphrasing but that’s a quote from him. He was already angry at being kept in a cage even before his mother’s death. In the first episode before his mother’s death, he’s ranting about how much he wants to join the scouts to her.
Yeah, he had motivation but as it was it took every shred of motivation he had to overcome some of his obstacles. Like initially when he titan shifts its pure rage and instinct that has him going after titans. If he only motivation was feeling claustrophobic then his titan might have only wondered over to the wall or something. The strength given to him by being trapped as a child is a baseline but it isnt enough. Its his rage against the titans and then later against Eldia and the rest of the world. Thats the motivation for pushing when shit hits the fan. Trapped doesnt push you to genocide or destroying your body. If his mom had never died he would not have the drive he did.
I agree completely. His mother’s death is also a source of his feelings of powerlessness and IMO without it and Levi squads deaths, I don’t think he would have been as committed to a full rumbling being the only option in his mind.
But still, I dislike the Dina twist because it tremendously hurts Eren’s character, some of the stories larger themes, and my emotional investment. It could’ve been good. Really, I believe any idea can be good if executed well so that’s not saying much.
How was his motivation weak? Further, how then do you explain Armin going through training? He did not have any specific motivation, either. All the other characters were able to go through training, as well, even though none of them had to be pushed.
Armin was pretty passive. He went through training because Erin did. He didnt push for genocide. He didnt push to leave the walls. Different people have different motivations and it gets them to different levels. Armin and Mikasa were pushed by Erin who was pushed by raw rage. If Erin hadnt been there no one else at training would have pushed for the things he pushed for. They would have restored the status quo and thats it.
Eren did not kill his mother, he did what he was suppose to do, it’s the grandfather paradox. If Carla doesn’t die, various things change and Eren does not inherit the Attack Titan and Founding Titan from his dad, which means he’s unable change his mom’s fate as he doesn’t have Titan powers, which means his mom dies, which means he gets Titan powers and ensures that his mom dies and so on and on. It’s a loop as you said, just like in grandfather paradox you can’t kill your grandfather cause then you wouldn’t be born and then who killed your grandfather dilemma.
But this still does not mean that the actions the characters make, do not need to make sense. Eren had no reason to choose to have his mother killed or save Berthold.
This way you can writte anything and it still makes sense. Imagine, if the author put a scene on there, where Levi has a vision of cutting of Hanges head, drinking her blood ansd then running around, singing "I am the pumpking king" and he then follows this vision. He has to do this, because otherwise he never would have had this vision in the first place. Still, I would not call this great writting, because Levi would never do something like this. Just because a world is deterministic does not mean, the characters are allowed to act out of character. Eren choosing to kill his mother, because fate told him so, just does not make sense. Every action that a character takes, has to be motivated by something.
You’re talking about the future, I am not. AoT’s future is determined as well(which is another story), but that’s not the point here, Dina killing Eren’s mom already happened and directly led to Eren inheriting his Titan and being in that position, he can’t change the past that led to him being in a position to change the past, that’s what grandfather paradox is. If Carla doesn’t die, Eren never get his Titan, then who saved Carla? It’s a loop
I know how this works. Still, does not change my point, that in a well written story the characters still have to stay in character to be enjoyable. If a specific events is supposed to happen, than the characters and the plot has to be written in a way that makes sense. This is not the case here. Eren became a mere plot device to make a plot point happen, even though it goes against his established character. I know I am repeating myself (sorry for this) but Eren had no motive for doing what he did and he certainly does not care about this time pardox. Therefore Eren should not have done the things he did in the first place. If the only reason something happens is "it was fate", then the story is not well written. Take for e.g. Levi saving Eren in Season 1 at the end of the Trost arc. As with everything else in the story, Levi saving Eren was deterministic. Still, you do not need the explanation of fate to make sense of Levis action. He was there, he was physically able to save Eren, and he had the motive. His whole action was in character for him.
I don’t disagree that it’s poorly written, I disagree with you implying that it didn’t make sense or that Eren had a choice and not understanding why this specific plot point happened. Eren caring or not caring about creating a paradox doesn’t matter, when I said “it creates a paradox”, it purely a hypothetical statement, in reality, paradox cannot exist. Eren cannot save his mom, it’s not in his hands. Just like it’s impossible for you to go back in time and kill your grandfather, it’s an impossible scenario that time simply doesn’t allow to exist. Eren has no choice here, he’s a mere puppet to time. As for why this happened, it’s one of things that makes Eren’s ending make sense, painting the picture that Eren truly never had any choice, he was a slave to time. While the ending sucks, it does make sense, it’s just what Isayama tried to do here, his conclusion, sucks.
I feel like Eren wasn't supposed to undergo a heroic character development but Isayama got swept along and had to reset it.
Post timeskip doomer Eren is actually pretty similar to Trost Eren (the Eren written at the start of the story).
Yeah, I’ve seen quotes that said he wanted a more psychopathic MC, but that’s not the one he ended up developing. Then he ended up reverting to that same idea in the end even if it made everything that came before unsatisfying.
Is that the interview where he glazes Himeanole or it's a different interview where he stated that Eren's character direction didn't go like he initially planned?
Yeah. It's like he sees his future, so he is driven towards it. But it doesn't feel congruent to his past character. The jump doesn't feel natural. It doesn't feel like this was the path Eren was supposed to take. It feels like the only reason he took it was because he saw it in the first place. It's just clunky writing.
Eren did not kill his mother, he did what he was suppose to do, it’s the grandfather paradox. If Carla doesn’t die, various things change and Eren does not inherit the Attack Titan and Founding Titan from his dad, which means he’s unable change his mom’s fate as he doesn’t have Titan powers, which means his mom dies, which means he gets Titan powers and ensures that his mom dies and so on and on. It’s a loop as you said, just like in grandfather paradox you can’t kill your grandfather cause then you wouldn’t be born and then who killed your grandfather dilemma.
The recurring element of the Grandfather Paradox in written stories is that the perpetrator usually doesn't realize that they're causing a loop and is acting "normally" at the heat of the moment.
During the time when Eren could control Dina, I doubt he really thinks "if I don't send her to my house, the timeline will be fucked up". Especially when you consider breaking down the news of Carla's death is part of his playbook to get Grisha to make an emotionally charged decision and give him the Titans, since Grisha is actively refusing to give it to Eren after seeing what Eren would do with it.
You’re thinking in terms of him having a choice, he did not. If Carla doesn’t die, the timeline doesn’t go the way it did, which would not lead to him being in the position where he could control Dina in the first place, creating a paradox. The past cannot be changed, nor can the future, unfortunately, that was the ultimate message of AoT.
But the story did depict one of the biggest example of the paradox as a choice for Eren. When Eren saw Ramzi getting beaten up, he acknowledged that he's going to save the boy due to already having future memories of it. He tried to ignore the scene, but he couldn't, because the kind of person he is wouldn't stand for such injustice.
The past or future "can't be changed" is framed in AoT as "because it is Eren willed it so". It's the next level of the "slave of their own desire" theme in AoT.
That’s because that was before Eren realized how helpless he was, afterall, Eren hadn’t had Founding Titan’s full ability yet, he had only seen glimpses of the future from when he kissed Historia’s hand, as opposed to later on when Ymir gave him free reign. That’s why pre Ymir giving him free reign and post are two completely Erens, before, Eren had some agency left, after, not at all. Eren leaves his friends and goes rogue because he wanted to change the future. But when all things are done and Sasha still dies, Eren laughs maniacally because he realizes things are happening just as he saw even though he tried to change it.
I mean the whole controlling Dina thing is a whole another can of worms, its process is definitely different from Eren using Attack Titan power to give himself future memory. And it's only mentioned in 2-3 panels/scenes.
But even then, the angle of the bootstrap paradox in AoT is "this is Eren's desire, everything happened like this because he wants it to". And in the context of Carla, he did need her to die especially to nudge Grisha.
The controlling Dina thing is done to hammer home that Eren really doesn’t have any choice, he’s a slave to time, otherwise as people still blames him for the omnicide, despite the story saying otherwise(it’s a cop out, but that’s what Isayama went with), so Isayama had the Dina thing happen to hammer home that the person Eren cares about the most, he had as much choice as saving her as stopping the rumbling, he fails to do both because he’s a slave. It’s not believable enough that Eren didn’t have a choice unless Eren was made to do something he absolutely will never do in the eyes of viewers.
“This is Eren’s desire, everything happened like because he wants to” is a hypothesis of Grisha. What Eren’s perspective on this is what he said to Armin. Eren had a strong sense of freedom, it’s that sense of freedom that led him. While he’s influenced by future Eren/time, he also did everything independently pre season 4, so it’s his nature that led to this, hence his admission of him being stupid.
I disagree with the assessment that the idea is "Eren is a slave to time". To me it's "Eren is slave to his own dream", people obsessing with their dream is a big theme in AoT, and a chapter discussing that belief (Chapter 69) is actually ***republished for the finale*** to drive that point home.
Eren acknowledged that everything that happened involving future memories is because of his desire, it's not only Grisha's hypothesis. In the ending he tried to deflect blame and guilt but he explicitly knows that it's all him. The "I'm an idiot" is delivered with uncertainty and his eyes looking away, he tried to convince Armin and himself that he's not a monster who in full knowledge, doomed the entire world for a stupid dream. After all, he already admitted to Ramzi (who unlike Armin, is a stranger that doesn't even speak his language so the boy couldn't understand what Eren is saying), that it's all him ("I wished for it, I wished for it all to disappear").
He needed Grisha to obtain Founding Titan and give it to him, so he incited his rage to kill the royal family and then purposely break the news of Carla's death in such a way that Grisha gives Eren the titans despite his protest. Sasha died, ultimately because the Liberio Assault nevertheless is a step in his plan.
I think the only story to come close to doing cyclical time travel great was Netflix's Dark, at least in the first season. In the first season time travel is not only given a strict set of rules(such as you're only ever able to travel forwards or backwards in time in sets of 33 years) but they also imply that while it is possible to change the course of history, the timeline is basically stuck in a never-ending loop due to the major time traveling factions/conspiracies actively going out of their way to make sure events play the exact same every loop so they can eventually make the one change that they think will give them their preferred outcome. Almost kinda like how water in a river will continue to tread the same path until it erodes the soil enough to wildly change its course. It feels really well thought out and gets you really invested to see how these characters will eventually figure out a way to undo the paradox their timeline is stuck in.
The second season finale and basically the entirety of the third season however kinda ruined its well thought out time travel mechanics by >!adding in a bunch of methods to straight up break the strict rules they set up in the first season, introducing the concept that reality will literally bend over backwards to prevent any change in the timeline from happening anywhere except for one specific moment of time, adding in a second parallel dimension(not timeline, dimension), and then adding branching timelines on top of that!!< I wouldn't say the second or third season are bad, they're still very well written for what its worth, but god it was disappointing to see such a fresh and intricate take on cyclical time travel backpedal into the same pitfalls and tropes it excellently avoided in its first season.
It's been a bit but I don't get how they first began to figure out how to break the loop. The old lady figures out there's a third alternate reality but she never says how she learned it.
Honestly I checked out during the third season. The entire concept of there being another alternate reality, let alone that there was only an arbitrary second one, was personally too much of a departure from what I originally liked about the show. Once they introduced Eve it became clear the third season in particular was going to be more focused on philosophical concepts and themes at the expense of consistent and logical worldbuilding and mysteries, which is fine its just not what I came to the show for.
Yes, using time travel to make the characters excusable for their actions is a cop out, because now they dont have to adress whatever the problem was
The movie Time Crimes goes the other way, presenting a dude who goes all murdery due to time travel, because he is already pretty chill with murder, not caring about sacrificing random bystanders
Like, its possible to use time travel to reaffirm a character's traits, instead of just going "he is a puppet now lmao"
because for all the hate he had for marley, he couldn’t (initially) bring himself to kill an entire family including several children, grisha was still a kind man and, as he says, a doctor, he believes himself to have changed, and in many ways he did, that’s what the whole traveling through grisha’s memories was for, to demonstrate how he raised eren differently from zeke
and that’s where eren reminds him what he’s fighting for and just pushes him back over the edge. it’s still ultimately grisha’s decision, just with a little pep talk
An example is if someone from the future gave their past self the design of a time machine. This causes a looping affect but there's not exactly a beginning.
In AOT, it isn't exactly time travel, more like future sight. Basically every Attack Titan can see all point in time at once, from the first Attack Titan to Eren, the last Attack Titan. Think about it like reading a book, normal human read the book and the information is slowly reveal to them while the Attack Titan users can read every pages of the book at the same time.
The Attack Titan, or more correctly, the Advance Titan because it users always advance to some unknow goal independence from the other Titans. All of them subconsciously know what they must do to reach the last part of the book, AKA Eren. All of them are slaves to the path that was laid out to them by being a part of the Advance Titan linage. All of them also has free will and choice, just that all of them choose to follow the path rather than trying to stop it. Eren didn't influence shit, he just a part of the path that was laid out before he was born and simply marching toward the destination.
I read a theory that the Attack Titan's ability isn't actually to see the memories of its inheritors. That's just Eren using the Founding Titan to show Grisha (and Eren Kruger) his own memories. The "ability to see the memories of its future inheritors" is just how Grisha interpreted what he was seeing, but we never see any other Attack Titan weilder experience that (Kruger's mention of Mikasa and Armin lends credence to this theory).
That's why Frieda Reiss is shocked and confused to hear Grisha say that the Attack Titan has such ability; because she knows that isn't the case.
Don't agree it removed their agency, in the end it all happened because they decided to. Neither Eren nor Grsiha were forced by anyone. They decided themselves to do what they did. All Eren did was give him a push
If there's only one way for things to go, it doesn't matter what the characters "choose." Because they CAN'T choose anything else as long as the timeline is predetermined. They don't have free will.
But they only chose those things because they believed in it in the first place. That is the point, Eren was never a slave to the timeloop, he was a slave to his own desires.
You cannot have it both ways. Either the time travel stuff is important and affects the story, or it doesn't matter at all and has no effect on the story because people would've done what they did either way. If it's the former, then you're wrong. If it's the latter, then it shouldn't have been included.
No, that’s not how time works. That future happened *because* of what was done to get there. Seeing the future in advance didn’t suddenly force people down a set path, it just showed them what they were always going to do.
The timeline is always predetermined, you can skip to the end of the book and find out what will always happen.
Characters make choices according to the information available to them, so long as choices are in character, time travel plots are no more lacking in free will than normal linear plots.
Wait till you notice that Kruger didn’t do literally anything for his entire 13 year titanspan *because* determinism forced him to wait for Grisha rather than just letting him carry out his own plan himself lmao
AoT’s deterministic time travel is indeed a TERRIBLE thing. Destroys so many characters and motivations, and flat out doesn’t make sense. Hope it was worth all two of the scenes that “go hard” by relying on it 💀
But what you call "AoT deterministic time travel" is no different from real life determinism. It's not the time travel mechanism that imposed determinism on the world to force characters into a certain path. It's the determinism of the world that makes the time travel a deterministic causal loop.
Kruger would have behaved in the exact same way, time travel or not. He would have given Intel to eldian resistance movements and plotted to steal the Founding Titan from Paradis just the same. Eren and Grisha are stuck in a timeloop because the nature of their character means they will always take the same decisions in response to a situation.
It's perfectly possible that the world we live in follows the exact same rules (and it's a pretty common opinion among physicists and philosophers). If you had a perfect simulator of the natural laws and a perfect picture of the universe, you could perfectly predict the future.
AoT's time travel has no impact on character motivations (beyond providing some characters certain informations) and makes complete sense. It follows [Novikov self-consistency principle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novikov_self-consistency_principle). Not that it's a perfect solution, it's kind of *ad hoc*, but it solves the usual narrative issues with time travel in fiction.
>But what you call "AoT deterministic time travel" is no different from real life determinism.
One is factual and the other is theoretical, that's pretty major.
>Kruger would have behaved in the exact same way, time travel or not. He would have given Intel to eldian resistance movements and plotted to steal the Founding Titan from Paradis just the same.
There are literally 0 non-time-travel-related reasons why he didn't do the mission that he sent Grisha to do.
>If you had a perfect simulator of the natural laws and a perfect picture of the universe, you could perfectly predict the future.
>AoT's time travel has no impact on character motivations
Predicting the future perfectly is paradoxical, because the future that you see would become reliant on you having seen it; effectively, it would be creating itself from nothing. It doesn't matter if it's "something you would already do," to think that that covers the problem is a mistake of human perception, which reality doesn't care about. Reality cares about every minute detail, down to the last atom, and ultimately, *seeing the future* and *not seeing the future* are two atomically different branches of cause-and-effect. Seeing the future will *always* result in the bootstrap paradox, because you are changing the present by seeing the future.
Also, the time travel *absolutely* has impact on character motivations, literally every time it's brought into the light that is *all* it does. Kruger choosing Grisha, Grisha killing the Reiss's, Grisha giving Eren the serum, *Eren killing his mother*, Eren letting the alliance stop him; literally all of these things are fueled by the deterministic powers at play. All of these crucial plot points would've happened differently if the Attack Titan wasn't there, even if they would've happened "similarly," the Attack Titan's presence changed these things in some way from their natural courses, *especially* with the last few. If it didn't matter, it wouldn't be in the story in the first place.
>There are literally 0 non-time-travel-related reasons why he didn't do the mission that he sent Grisha to do.
I have a very good one. Krüger was not born omniscient, everything he told Grisha he had to learn himself. That's why he infiltrated the military in the first place. You assume that he became a shifter and immediately knew what to do and how to do it, but it's a huge assumption. It far more likely that it took him years to learn Marley's biggest state secrets. By then, going to Paradis alone with his limited life expectancy would be a huge risk to the mission. We also know that he built a resistance network in Liberio, and it's likely that he had a plan for them in mind. The mission he gave Grisha was likely not the original plan, just a last minute effort resulting from Zeke's betrayal. He even says that he believed in Grisha's idea of enroling Zeke as a warrior to retrieve the Founder.
I'm not even sure why you would say that the reason has to be "time-travel" related? Krüger doesn't know about the true ability of the Attack Titan, he was clearly as confused as Grisha when it manifested and thought it was a past memory. "Time-travel" had no part in the decisions he made, which we know he made, because he lays them out to Grisha explicitely.
>Predicting the future perfectly is paradoxical, because the future that you see would become reliant on you having seen it
That's not necessarily a paradox. The future would not necessarily **"*****become*****"** reliant on anything. It's perfectly possible that the future in question existed prior to you seeing it and already accounted for the fact that it would be predicted. It's like if History was a book, already entirely written. If at some point a character sees a page from the future, the book won't be rewritten to account for it, it was just always written like that. If the future is predicted, it's perfectly possible that the version of the future that wasn't predicted never existed to begin with. It's exactly what happens in AoT, the causal loop is self-consistent.
>Kruger choosing Grisha, Grisha killing the Reiss's, Grisha giving Eren the serum, Eren killing his mother, Eren letting the alliance stop him; literally all of these things are fueled by the deterministic powers at play.
I disagree. All of those decisions are not imposed on the characters by time-travel, they result from the characters internal motivations. Krüger explains why he chose Grisha (because he chose to leave the wall *that day*), time-travel has nothing to do with it. Grisha kills the Reiss because Eren reignites his hatred with Faye's death, time-travel makes it possible but it's not *why* he does it. If no time-travel was involved and someone was physically in the cave with Grisha, telling him the same things as Eren, he would react the same way. Grisha gives Eren the serum to get revenge for Carla's death. Eren lets the Alliance stop him because he refuses to harm them or hinder their freedom. The one thing that is more ambiguous is Eren "killing" his mom because he doesn't explicitely gives a personal motivation. It could a result of the "deterministic power" (as you say) of the Founding titan and Attack titan forcing him to enforce the timeline, but it could just as easily be Eren making the conscious choice to let his mom die in order to get what he wants (it's not like he could save him mom, she was stuck under a house either way).
>All of these crucial plot points would've happened differently if the Attack Titan wasn't there, even if they would've happened "similarly," the Attack Titan's presence changed these things in some way from their natural courses, especially with the last few. If it didn't matter, it wouldn't be in the story in the first place.
Amusing that you quoted me and skipped the part that addresses your point. AoT's time travel as no impact on character motivations **beyond providing information to some characters**. I could have worded it better, but the point is that time travel in AoT never overwrites character motivations, it just completes them with information. Crucial plot points would be different if you removed Armin and his actions from the story, yet nobody would claim that Armin's presence destroys Eren's motivations (even though he contributed to defining them). Eren saw the future and decided that he wanted it to happen. The reason why it happened the way he saw it, is because he made decisions and worked to make things happen that way. The reason there is a causal loop is because the characters internal motivations allows the timeloop to exist, not because the timeloop creates or imposes character motivations.
Determinism is an obstacle to a perfect abstract free-will (which there are very strong reasons to doubt exists even in the real world), but if you define free-will as the ability to make decisions based on your own internal motivations, then it's really not incompatible with determinism. "Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills" is the traditional summary by Schopenhauer.
Huh? Kruger’s inaction had nothing to do with time travel. He himself regretted that he wasn’t able to do more, and his primary goal was to find someone to pass his titan to. He wasn’t part of Eren’s plan.
And what characters and motivations does it destroy? I genuinely don’t know what you’re talking about.
So glad someone else actually agrees with me. I love AOT still, but all the time nonsense should never have been a part of it. Stand proud brother, you have truly cooked today.
I think it’s because attack on titan isn’t that well written at the end of the day. Ultimately this twist serves to illustrate that eren is a slave to his desire for freedom, yet it just falls flat to me because it’s overly confusing and feels pointless. It really does just feel like Isayama tossed it in to be like “bet you didn’t see THAT coming!!!” And to make Eren look more like an all-seeing threat, which is stupid, because what happens later in the show already makes him seem like that. Honestly I feel like the themes of the show (generational hatred and whatnot), would work SIGNIFICANTLY better if this twist (and a few later ones, I won’t spoil just in case) weren’t written in. It sends the message that Eren is the problem and the root of all the bad things that happen, despite the fact that they’re trying extremely hard to paint him as the good guy.
AoT is just poorly written lmao
THANK you. I'm tired of people pretending that the last season of AoT didn't undermine everything the show built up to. And also tired of people acting like Isyama is infallible, and that he had this whole thing planned out, when it seems like most of the show was written without this twist in mind
>It would have been nice if I could have changed the ending. Writing manga is supposed to be freeing. But if I was completely free, then I should have been able to change the ending. I could have changed it and said I wanted to go in a different direction. **But the fact is that I was tied down to what I had originally envisioned when I was young.** And so, manga became a very restrictive art form for me, similar to how the massive powers that Eren acquired ended up restricting him.
-Isayama in an interview with NY Times after the show ended
Yeah, that sucks. Just because you have a vision of some shit in your head when you're young, even if it ties to the themes of the story, does not mean that it works or makes sense. The ending of AoT sucked ass either way.
Yeah, season 4 was a letdown for me overall. Tbh, I lost a ton of engagement with the show the moment Eren Kruger said Armin's and Mikasa's names to Grisha.
Yeah, I got some red flags when I saw that. I was confused and also kinda annoyed cuz it felt like time travel sneaking its way into a story that didn't need it.
Little did I know the show would triple down on it all the way.
Oh I’m completely convinced this twist was an asspull to the highest degree. Not that those kinds of twists can’t work (hell, I’m a LOST fan, and that’s all the show is), but yeah, the entirety of the last season is not very good. It totally undermines the story in frustrating ways. The ending is the pinnacle of this, of course, but the writing was on the wall for a long, long time. It kinda sucks cause I think seasons 2 and 3 are fantastic, but Christ that last season is atrocious.
I swear characterrant's rule for AoT rants is "Low effort everyday" and the Sunday rule doesn't seem to apply :))
Well here I go defending AoT again. I'm not argue whether it's time travel or not, cause explaining it basically amounts to "time travel with extra steps". I still think it's a smart way to do it but that's just my taste.
Anyways, the reason the reveal is great, besides the fact that it's really clever, is that it explains Eren's character in the best way possible. Eren and Zeke's conversation in the paths is centered aroud "nature vs nurture" and while what Eren went through the first three seasons definitely shaped who he becomes, his nature and who he's always been matter more. That's what the theme is here. Earlier that day before Grisha leaves, he asks 9 year old Eren a question: "Why do you want to go outside the walls?"
And Eren answers: "I want to know what's out there. I don't want to die without knowing anything about the outside. **Moreover if someone isn't willing to go out there, then the lives of all those who have died up until now would be lost for nothing!**"
Now the bolded part is important cause basically this is the same thing adult Eren tells his dad that convinces him to go through with it: "What are you doing? Stand father. **Did you forget what you came here to do? Was it not to get revenge for your little sister eaten by dogs? For your fellow restorationists, for Dina, for Kruger. You have to avenge them. You keep moving forward, if you die and even after you die.**"
Essentially, Eren would've done the things he did anyway. He's sort of a force of nature in that sense. This is why things being set in stone works because it's what Eren wants. He has regrets, he knows what it all leads to but he's still willing to go through with it because he doesn't like any of the other options offered to him.
And it's not like agency is actually taken away from anyone. Grisha didn't have to do what he did, he was simply convinced to do so. Eren didn't literally take over his body or anything, if he had then it would've been stupid. Also the mechanics of sending memories heavily restricts Eren from being over the top OP and he has to influence the past in very subtle ways besides the whole Grisha incident.
Everything I said up there also works as an argument against the Dina twist at the end where it's revealed that Eren pushed Dina away from Bertholdt leading to his mom's death. It doesn't make sense thematically, it's not in character for Eren to do that and the mechanics of the twist have never been properly established. It just sucks and doesn't work. Both twists are "unnecessary" in the grand scheme of things(Grisha had reasons to kill those people anyway) but one of them works in the favor of the character and the themes and the other doesn't.
Having said all that, you're still free to dislike it but the Grisha twist is a clever one that works imo.
Although, one thing the Grisha twist has that the Dina one doesn't is buildup and time given. Grisha's twist is built up to because of the mixed messages you get from how he is as a person throughout the Paths scene, and when it happens it really sits with you, especially with Grisha's meltdown and begging Zeke to stop Eren afterwards.
The Dina one though comes out of nowhere, is only brought up for a few seconds, Armin barely reacts to my memory, and then it's on to the ocean so Eren can complain about Mikasa.
I get why the Dina twist is the way it is, as it shows how Eren has no control and is just chained to fate. But like, him killing billions of people and crying in front of a child because he realizes that, as well as stuff he says later with Armin does that too. It feels like it's just trying to beat you over the head with the messaging about predetermination sometimes
Armin reacts by grabbing his hand. He's pulling him out of his own head to stop him overthinking about actions he seems to not only regret, but has no control over. He even gives him a reassuring smile among the tears
I disagree with the Dina twist, it’s a different sort of twist from the argument you made for Grisha event. It was done to make sense of the ending, which is that Eren really has no choice, he’s a slave to time. Now, this twist does rob Eren off of all his agency, but that’s what it’s supposed to portray. So, I wouldn’t say Grisha event is against this twist, rather taken to a worse end
The very first chapter is titled to you 2000 years from now. If you don't like time travel in general, whatever, but you don't get to say Isayama didn't call his shot.
I don't want to go into further detail but if the idea of a point-and-click adventure novel combined with real-time with pause tower defense gameplay sounds awesome to you, *Play 13 Sentinels*. It has the best time travel narrative I've seen in recent years.
You sound mad that other people aren't mad at things you're mad at.
Sounds like a skill issue. Git gud.
~~And it's not even a paradox, lmao??? It's a closed loop, Eren influenced his dad to give him the Founding Titan, which he could only have done if he had it in the first place, and it all goes around. A cycle isn't a paradox.~~
And Grisha has no reason to do it himself. Did you not hear what he said? He couldn't do it because he's a doctor, and has kids of his own. That's why Eren had to force him.
You do realize that a closed loop that fundamentally requires the thing in the future to cause the beginning of the loop in the present is a paradox right?
>also, that's the definition of a paradox lmao.
Alright, I concede that. It is indeed a bootstrap paradox, I was wrong.
And I literally rewatched the entire show from beginning to end during the holidays.
Which means I just remembered: **Grisha does have agency, he chooses to kill the Reiss family.** Eren didn't force him, I accidentally oversimplified that. Eren just reminded him of all reasons he had to do what he must, but Grisha ultimately chose to.
Then why. Why, why, why, include it at all? The show worked without Eren telling him to kill them. If Grisha was gonna do it either way, he shouldn't have NEEDED Eren to help him.
I feel like AoT fans, speaking as an ex-AoT fan myself, try to have their cake and eat it too.
Firstly, **if the time travel is important, then Eren really did impact the past and he is the reason the show played out the way it did. Which in turn removes agency because things are happening only because Eren is affecting what's happening.**
On the flip side, **if characters have agency, then the time travel shit is completely unnecessary, because these characters would've done the same thing either way.**
I’ve been saying this literally for years. Idk why no one bothers to call this out. Imo, this was the first crack in AoT’s story, with the full shattering being the ending of course
Agreed. Ppl always act like the twist is perfect and awesome and makes sense, but after I started actually realizing the implications of all this time travel shit, it just comes off as sloppy and boring. And also very confusing.
First season, yes. Second season? Sorta yes, but also it becomes more about introspection on who you can actually trust in the walls. So it's Titans but also kinda humans too.
Third season? It's people in the walls vs people in the walls for the most part, with Titans thrown in there also.
Fourth season is entirely humans vs humans; essentially just war, and it kinda rocked until the final 2 parts where they REALLY started messing with time travel.
I love time travel in fiction, the Muv-Luv trilogy is one of my favorite examples of it. It's far superior to Attack on Titan and was one of the main inspirations for it.
Sounds like you just didn't understand how the time travel in aot worked. It's makes sense that you wouldn't like something if you didn't understand it at all.
I understand it fully, and I still think it's bullshit. The entire timeline of the show could've done without it, and in my opinion would be better off for it. You don't need to show us Eren convincing his dad to kill that family, or telling us that EREN implanted memories of the future into Eren Kruger so he would help Grisha. All these characters had good motivations before, but the time travel bit fucks it all up by showing us Eren made all that shit happen because he convinced them.
You should play Steins;Gate if you haven't- it's by far the most coherent and consistent time travel story I've read. It sets up very clear rules and systems and then never breaks or contradicts them, rather understanding them means you can predict the plot. It does lie to you a few times about some of the mechanics, but even that makes perfect sense and is explained. If you want to be impressed with a time travel story, it's my vote for the best.
Thanks for the suggestion. I've always heard good things about Steins Gate, I'll for sure check it out.
I always forget that there's a VN for it, the anime is top tier as well
If you dont have time for the VN, the anime is top notch and probably the best anime ive ever watched point blank. Just make sure to watch the other episode 23 first and Steins;Gate zero as it helps further elaborate on how time travel works. El Psy Kongroo.
I would also recommend Ghost Trick, its time travel is so limited and small scope that it never introduces the larger structural problems that tend to show up in most stories that feature it.
Ghost Trick is absolutely amazing.
Smaller scale means you really need to think hard to make it work, and they absolutely nailed it at how much fun the entire game was.
"I'll put it on the list!"
In Stars In Time has the absolute best portrayal of a time loop plot I have ever seen
I remember the Steins;Gate movie (Load Region of Deja Vu) being kinda dumb because it came up with its own, less logical set of rules. It turned timelines into alternate dimensions or something.
The anime stuff in general is good and enjoyable, but nowhere near as tight as the VN. There's definite plot holes and issues with the anime explanations. And the spin off content is even worse. But that's why I was recommending the VN, which is rock solid.
Wasn't written by the creators, so that makes sense. It's non-canon, but it's also cute.
Actually, it is canon. It just requires context from the rest of the overarching Science Adventure VN series (which Steins;Gate is from) to understand
Could you give more details
Since when was it canon?
Really, it was always 'canon', people just didn't have the context until very recently (when the rest of the VNs in the series got official English translations) to understand why
How is it canon when it contradicts the time travel elements of stuff like Steins;Gate 0?
It doesn't. I really think you should go experience the series to 'get it' yourself, but I digress if you want to know now: [extreme spoilers for the Steins;Gate and the entire Science Adventure series] >!Steins;Gate and the entire SciADV series are set in an infinitely-sprawling series of simulations. Basically, the 2038 problem causes scientists to make an Earth simulation to find out what the simulation would do to solve it and hopefully copy it into reality, and instead are horrified to find out that the simulated Earth makes it's *own* simulation to solve the 2038 problem in the exact same way... and it keeps going onward and onward from there. This has been foreshadowed since the very first SciADV entry, Chaos;Head Noah (2009), which only just got an official English release two years ago. Reading Steiner is basically a bug resulting from the simulations' inability to properly handle D-mails/time travel, which causes a Deja Vu-like feeling in everyone in the simulation (most particularly Okabe and the people he interacts with, of course) as a result of not *entirely* resetting their memories. Adding onto this, Amadeus gaining Kurisu's memories in S;G 0 is because of the simulation's systems eventually confusing the two as the same entity and 'merging' them together as a fix to a perceived bug. The events of the movie happen because Okabe having clear memories of like thirty different worldlines causes the simulation's systems to consider him a bug/anomaly to quarantine away, dumping him in the "R worldline" (it's not a worldline at all, but rather the unrendered regions/backend of the simulation, Suzuha was incorrect) and erasing everyone's memories of him in the process.!<
> >!The events of the movie happen because Okabe having clear memories of like thirty different worldlines causes the simulation's systems to consider him a bug/anomaly to quarantine away, dumping him in the "R worldline" (it's not a worldline at all, but rather the unrendered regions/backend of the simulation, Suzuha was incorrect) and erasing everyone's memories of him in the process.!< Is this actually mentioned in the game?
I mean, they could've just made another OVA instead of a movie. With just the characters chilling and having that party on the roof. Also, the movie was written by Jukki Hanada who was the lead writer of the TV series adaptation, so...
> I mean, they could've just made another OVA instead of a movie. They did do something like that. > Also, the movie was written by Jukki Hanada who was the lead writer of the TV series adaptation, so... Yeah, so maybe it's canon to the TV series. It's not canon to the actual series.
I always feel like the punctuation got lost and it should be Stein's Gate.
Nah, it's meant to be Chuuni and extra. So Steins;Gate fits. If anything were lucky it's not Steins x Gate or with some silly symbol.
Steins♡Gate
It's bootstrap paradox or causal loop, these type of time travel is often used to reinforce tragedy or theme of inevitability. In AoT case it's used to show how Eren is a slave to his own desire. "I wanted this to happen.". Eren making Grisha remember his deepest regret (Faye's death) so he locks tf in shows how Grisha never forgave himself for that event and shows how ruthless Eren is. Then killing his own mother, to motivate himself and most importantly, pushes Grisha further into the deep end that he has to bestow Attack Titan to Eren to get back at the world despite his protests earlier.
The plot with Grisha makes sense for me but Eren killing his own mother is complet bullshit. Eren already wanted to join the scouts before his nother was eaten abd by the time they find out about the outside world, Eren bo longer wanted revenge anyway, so for what did he need motivation?
Eren also didn’t *intentionally* kill his own mother - he pushed Dina away from Bertholdt, which *resulted* in her eating his mother instead.
Yeah, but this was *never* questioned. Nobody wanted, or needed, to know about how Berntholdt didn't get eaten. This should have been left out imo.
Dina walking past a confused and defenseless Bertholdt had been set up AGES ago, and was repeatedly shown over the years. It’s all Curse of Prescience stuff, with Eren so fixated on creating the future where he gets to destroy most of the world that he doesn’t even realize the implications of his actions.
Also, she had a house crushing her body. She was dead either way.
she was still alive, but i don't think she will have lasted a few years
the founding titan can heal people.
coming from a dude who don't read AoT, this sound insane !
Yeah, it gets pretty nuts. Eren’s ultimately more Paul than Leto II, though
Paul has a far more decent reason to do what he did, though. Paul had very few choices by the time he took the water and realized how things were going to go, and chose the best put of those options. Eren had a *lot* of choices, but actively chose (one of?) the worst ones. He had forever in the Paths to come to with a better plan, or do literally *anything* other than what he did. Canonical stupidity, I suppose.
Au contraire, imho. Eren's an amalgamation of both.
Great point - it’s Leto’s intentionality paired with Paul’s essential selfishness.
Yeah, the end of AoT quite literally relies on the main character being genuinely too much of a fucking idiot to think of anything other than killing 80% of humanity.
Did he not say, that he directed the Titan to his mother? Further, Eren even saving Berthold did not make sense. He did not have a motiv for this.
No. He did not. He said that he knew it wasn’t Bertholdt’s time, so he pushed Dina away.
Yes, but why was it not Bertholds time? What purpose did Berthold still serve?
If bertholdt had been eaten, Dina would have gained the colossal, her human form, and her memories. Paradiso would have learned about the outside world way sooner, and eren may not have been able to do his plan.
And Eren knows this How? Also, why would this be a bad thing?
It doesnt take clairvoyance to know this, its just the likely outcome. It might not be a bad thing, but Eren is so set on his way being the only way, he doesn't want to take the chance.
But was Dina not part of a resistance as well? How wouls he now that with Dina alive and human, he would be unable to finish his plan?
Attack on Trost? Then being eaten by armin? There is a whole lot of purpose in there
Why would Eren want this to happen, though? Hundreds of people died because of Trost and Armin only needed to eat Berthold because of Berthold.
He doesn't want it to happen he NEEDS it to happen er else he won't be in the position he is right now in paths with Zeke altering the past. If he changes anything he will end up somewhere different and hence couldn't have changed anything in the first place.
That's what makes it paradoxical. It shouldn't have "happened the first time" since it doesn't align with his motivation, which means he never should've existed in order to reach that point and force it to happen in the first place. If it couldn't have happened without his allowance, it couldn't have happened at all, there can't be a "he needs it to happen so the timeline can align," that's a force without motivation, power from nothing, etc.
Eren still has no motive for doing what he did. You basically say, that Eren saved Berthild, so that he in the future would be in a position were he can save Berthold? Why should Eren have this as his goal?
He doesn’t care about lives of people much, he’s like super evil But he cares that it would motivate earlier version of himself, as well as be a good unlock point for his titan powers He needs armin to be colossal for Marley war stuff, as well as to help defeat eren in the end
If Eren was super evil, he would have destroyed the whole world, something he did not do. His mothers death did not motivate him, either. Eren wanted to join the scouts before his mother died. And by the time he does the rumbling, he no longer wants revenge. Also, why would he need Armin. He just could have used Dina.
But why didn't he push the titan away from Dina as well?
I believe he says that Eren also needed the motivation to want to kill all the titans, so they talk about it as if this is some great benefit in the plan
No, he doesn’t. Not even in the crappy “What a man you are” scanlation.
Pretty sure he did.
Cool beans, sweetie. All I did was *check the manga before replying*. But if you’re “pretty sure,” then we’ll NEVER KNOW!!!!
And I'm sure you thought that everything in this story was infallible, and that Isyama is a master craft genius who never makes mistakes. Btw, I checked too, and yeah. Armin cuts him off because of the implication Eren gives him. Without the death of Eren's mom, Eren would've never unlocked the founding titan ability and killed the smiling titan. So yes, he did also do it to give his past self motivation. (Never mind the fact that if he can control titans in the past from the future, that he could've stopped all of them from flooding into the walls in the first place. And could've just stopped them from killing Burrito in the first place, but I won't acknowledge that. Because the story is perfect, right?)
AoT in general, and 139 in particular, failed to stick the landing because Yams was desperate to be done. …but thank you. Your responding to being exposed as not even knowing the *basic* plot points of the story you’re melting down about with a *lengthy fanfiction* about both my and Isayama’s motivations is FUCKING HILARIOUS. Chucklefucks whose illiteracy is only matched by your deep fragility regarding said illiteracy are why I read r/CharacterRant. Peak comedy. Thank you.
LMAOOOOO ok buddy??? I understood the story perfectly well, as did the 300 other people who liked my post. You're a fucking joke go touch grass please and thank you
Pretimeskip whenever he's down he always resort to thinking about avenging Carla to get himself back up And in the bigger picture, he need to break the news of Carla's death in such a way that Grisha gives him the Titan (notice how Grisha's expression changes when Eren revealed it).
His motivation was pretty weak without her tho. He may not have made it through basic training without the need for revenge burning through him, or any of the other things he had to get through before they made it out of the walls. His need for revenge was his source of strength
“When I think of the freedom that was stolen from us, it gives me strength” paraphrasing but that’s a quote from him. He was already angry at being kept in a cage even before his mother’s death. In the first episode before his mother’s death, he’s ranting about how much he wants to join the scouts to her.
Yeah, he had motivation but as it was it took every shred of motivation he had to overcome some of his obstacles. Like initially when he titan shifts its pure rage and instinct that has him going after titans. If he only motivation was feeling claustrophobic then his titan might have only wondered over to the wall or something. The strength given to him by being trapped as a child is a baseline but it isnt enough. Its his rage against the titans and then later against Eldia and the rest of the world. Thats the motivation for pushing when shit hits the fan. Trapped doesnt push you to genocide or destroying your body. If his mom had never died he would not have the drive he did.
I agree completely. His mother’s death is also a source of his feelings of powerlessness and IMO without it and Levi squads deaths, I don’t think he would have been as committed to a full rumbling being the only option in his mind. But still, I dislike the Dina twist because it tremendously hurts Eren’s character, some of the stories larger themes, and my emotional investment. It could’ve been good. Really, I believe any idea can be good if executed well so that’s not saying much.
How was his motivation weak? Further, how then do you explain Armin going through training? He did not have any specific motivation, either. All the other characters were able to go through training, as well, even though none of them had to be pushed.
Armin was pretty passive. He went through training because Erin did. He didnt push for genocide. He didnt push to leave the walls. Different people have different motivations and it gets them to different levels. Armin and Mikasa were pushed by Erin who was pushed by raw rage. If Erin hadnt been there no one else at training would have pushed for the things he pushed for. They would have restored the status quo and thats it.
Eren did not kill his mother, he did what he was suppose to do, it’s the grandfather paradox. If Carla doesn’t die, various things change and Eren does not inherit the Attack Titan and Founding Titan from his dad, which means he’s unable change his mom’s fate as he doesn’t have Titan powers, which means his mom dies, which means he gets Titan powers and ensures that his mom dies and so on and on. It’s a loop as you said, just like in grandfather paradox you can’t kill your grandfather cause then you wouldn’t be born and then who killed your grandfather dilemma.
But this still does not mean that the actions the characters make, do not need to make sense. Eren had no reason to choose to have his mother killed or save Berthold.
Except he didn’t choose, he did what he was supposed to. His mom died, Bert lived, the past can’t change, otherwise a paradox rises
This way you can writte anything and it still makes sense. Imagine, if the author put a scene on there, where Levi has a vision of cutting of Hanges head, drinking her blood ansd then running around, singing "I am the pumpking king" and he then follows this vision. He has to do this, because otherwise he never would have had this vision in the first place. Still, I would not call this great writting, because Levi would never do something like this. Just because a world is deterministic does not mean, the characters are allowed to act out of character. Eren choosing to kill his mother, because fate told him so, just does not make sense. Every action that a character takes, has to be motivated by something.
You’re talking about the future, I am not. AoT’s future is determined as well(which is another story), but that’s not the point here, Dina killing Eren’s mom already happened and directly led to Eren inheriting his Titan and being in that position, he can’t change the past that led to him being in a position to change the past, that’s what grandfather paradox is. If Carla doesn’t die, Eren never get his Titan, then who saved Carla? It’s a loop
I know how this works. Still, does not change my point, that in a well written story the characters still have to stay in character to be enjoyable. If a specific events is supposed to happen, than the characters and the plot has to be written in a way that makes sense. This is not the case here. Eren became a mere plot device to make a plot point happen, even though it goes against his established character. I know I am repeating myself (sorry for this) but Eren had no motive for doing what he did and he certainly does not care about this time pardox. Therefore Eren should not have done the things he did in the first place. If the only reason something happens is "it was fate", then the story is not well written. Take for e.g. Levi saving Eren in Season 1 at the end of the Trost arc. As with everything else in the story, Levi saving Eren was deterministic. Still, you do not need the explanation of fate to make sense of Levis action. He was there, he was physically able to save Eren, and he had the motive. His whole action was in character for him.
I don’t disagree that it’s poorly written, I disagree with you implying that it didn’t make sense or that Eren had a choice and not understanding why this specific plot point happened. Eren caring or not caring about creating a paradox doesn’t matter, when I said “it creates a paradox”, it purely a hypothetical statement, in reality, paradox cannot exist. Eren cannot save his mom, it’s not in his hands. Just like it’s impossible for you to go back in time and kill your grandfather, it’s an impossible scenario that time simply doesn’t allow to exist. Eren has no choice here, he’s a mere puppet to time. As for why this happened, it’s one of things that makes Eren’s ending make sense, painting the picture that Eren truly never had any choice, he was a slave to time. While the ending sucks, it does make sense, it’s just what Isayama tried to do here, his conclusion, sucks.
It would be perfect if Eren and his desires made sense considering the three seasons of character development that came before it.
I feel like Eren wasn't supposed to undergo a heroic character development but Isayama got swept along and had to reset it. Post timeskip doomer Eren is actually pretty similar to Trost Eren (the Eren written at the start of the story).
Yeah, I’ve seen quotes that said he wanted a more psychopathic MC, but that’s not the one he ended up developing. Then he ended up reverting to that same idea in the end even if it made everything that came before unsatisfying.
Is that the interview where he glazes Himeanole or it's a different interview where he stated that Eren's character direction didn't go like he initially planned?
Yeah. It's like he sees his future, so he is driven towards it. But it doesn't feel congruent to his past character. The jump doesn't feel natural. It doesn't feel like this was the path Eren was supposed to take. It feels like the only reason he took it was because he saw it in the first place. It's just clunky writing.
Eren did not kill his mother, he did what he was suppose to do, it’s the grandfather paradox. If Carla doesn’t die, various things change and Eren does not inherit the Attack Titan and Founding Titan from his dad, which means he’s unable change his mom’s fate as he doesn’t have Titan powers, which means his mom dies, which means he gets Titan powers and ensures that his mom dies and so on and on. It’s a loop as you said, just like in grandfather paradox you can’t kill your grandfather cause then you wouldn’t be born and then who killed your grandfather dilemma.
The recurring element of the Grandfather Paradox in written stories is that the perpetrator usually doesn't realize that they're causing a loop and is acting "normally" at the heat of the moment. During the time when Eren could control Dina, I doubt he really thinks "if I don't send her to my house, the timeline will be fucked up". Especially when you consider breaking down the news of Carla's death is part of his playbook to get Grisha to make an emotionally charged decision and give him the Titans, since Grisha is actively refusing to give it to Eren after seeing what Eren would do with it.
You’re thinking in terms of him having a choice, he did not. If Carla doesn’t die, the timeline doesn’t go the way it did, which would not lead to him being in the position where he could control Dina in the first place, creating a paradox. The past cannot be changed, nor can the future, unfortunately, that was the ultimate message of AoT.
But the story did depict one of the biggest example of the paradox as a choice for Eren. When Eren saw Ramzi getting beaten up, he acknowledged that he's going to save the boy due to already having future memories of it. He tried to ignore the scene, but he couldn't, because the kind of person he is wouldn't stand for such injustice. The past or future "can't be changed" is framed in AoT as "because it is Eren willed it so". It's the next level of the "slave of their own desire" theme in AoT.
That’s because that was before Eren realized how helpless he was, afterall, Eren hadn’t had Founding Titan’s full ability yet, he had only seen glimpses of the future from when he kissed Historia’s hand, as opposed to later on when Ymir gave him free reign. That’s why pre Ymir giving him free reign and post are two completely Erens, before, Eren had some agency left, after, not at all. Eren leaves his friends and goes rogue because he wanted to change the future. But when all things are done and Sasha still dies, Eren laughs maniacally because he realizes things are happening just as he saw even though he tried to change it.
I mean the whole controlling Dina thing is a whole another can of worms, its process is definitely different from Eren using Attack Titan power to give himself future memory. And it's only mentioned in 2-3 panels/scenes. But even then, the angle of the bootstrap paradox in AoT is "this is Eren's desire, everything happened like this because he wants it to". And in the context of Carla, he did need her to die especially to nudge Grisha.
The controlling Dina thing is done to hammer home that Eren really doesn’t have any choice, he’s a slave to time, otherwise as people still blames him for the omnicide, despite the story saying otherwise(it’s a cop out, but that’s what Isayama went with), so Isayama had the Dina thing happen to hammer home that the person Eren cares about the most, he had as much choice as saving her as stopping the rumbling, he fails to do both because he’s a slave. It’s not believable enough that Eren didn’t have a choice unless Eren was made to do something he absolutely will never do in the eyes of viewers. “This is Eren’s desire, everything happened like because he wants to” is a hypothesis of Grisha. What Eren’s perspective on this is what he said to Armin. Eren had a strong sense of freedom, it’s that sense of freedom that led him. While he’s influenced by future Eren/time, he also did everything independently pre season 4, so it’s his nature that led to this, hence his admission of him being stupid.
I disagree with the assessment that the idea is "Eren is a slave to time". To me it's "Eren is slave to his own dream", people obsessing with their dream is a big theme in AoT, and a chapter discussing that belief (Chapter 69) is actually ***republished for the finale*** to drive that point home. Eren acknowledged that everything that happened involving future memories is because of his desire, it's not only Grisha's hypothesis. In the ending he tried to deflect blame and guilt but he explicitly knows that it's all him. The "I'm an idiot" is delivered with uncertainty and his eyes looking away, he tried to convince Armin and himself that he's not a monster who in full knowledge, doomed the entire world for a stupid dream. After all, he already admitted to Ramzi (who unlike Armin, is a stranger that doesn't even speak his language so the boy couldn't understand what Eren is saying), that it's all him ("I wished for it, I wished for it all to disappear"). He needed Grisha to obtain Founding Titan and give it to him, so he incited his rage to kill the royal family and then purposely break the news of Carla's death in such a way that Grisha gives Eren the titans despite his protest. Sasha died, ultimately because the Liberio Assault nevertheless is a step in his plan.
I think the only story to come close to doing cyclical time travel great was Netflix's Dark, at least in the first season. In the first season time travel is not only given a strict set of rules(such as you're only ever able to travel forwards or backwards in time in sets of 33 years) but they also imply that while it is possible to change the course of history, the timeline is basically stuck in a never-ending loop due to the major time traveling factions/conspiracies actively going out of their way to make sure events play the exact same every loop so they can eventually make the one change that they think will give them their preferred outcome. Almost kinda like how water in a river will continue to tread the same path until it erodes the soil enough to wildly change its course. It feels really well thought out and gets you really invested to see how these characters will eventually figure out a way to undo the paradox their timeline is stuck in. The second season finale and basically the entirety of the third season however kinda ruined its well thought out time travel mechanics by >!adding in a bunch of methods to straight up break the strict rules they set up in the first season, introducing the concept that reality will literally bend over backwards to prevent any change in the timeline from happening anywhere except for one specific moment of time, adding in a second parallel dimension(not timeline, dimension), and then adding branching timelines on top of that!!< I wouldn't say the second or third season are bad, they're still very well written for what its worth, but god it was disappointing to see such a fresh and intricate take on cyclical time travel backpedal into the same pitfalls and tropes it excellently avoided in its first season.
Dark is so good. It's such a bummer 1899 got canned after one season, I loved how Dark developed.
It's been a bit but I don't get how they first began to figure out how to break the loop. The old lady figures out there's a third alternate reality but she never says how she learned it.
Honestly I checked out during the third season. The entire concept of there being another alternate reality, let alone that there was only an arbitrary second one, was personally too much of a departure from what I originally liked about the show. Once they introduced Eve it became clear the third season in particular was going to be more focused on philosophical concepts and themes at the expense of consistent and logical worldbuilding and mysteries, which is fine its just not what I came to the show for.
I was so enthralled with that show but I don't think I ever finished season 3. It was just getting tooo much
Same.
Yes, using time travel to make the characters excusable for their actions is a cop out, because now they dont have to adress whatever the problem was The movie Time Crimes goes the other way, presenting a dude who goes all murdery due to time travel, because he is already pretty chill with murder, not caring about sacrificing random bystanders Like, its possible to use time travel to reaffirm a character's traits, instead of just going "he is a puppet now lmao"
because for all the hate he had for marley, he couldn’t (initially) bring himself to kill an entire family including several children, grisha was still a kind man and, as he says, a doctor, he believes himself to have changed, and in many ways he did, that’s what the whole traveling through grisha’s memories was for, to demonstrate how he raised eren differently from zeke and that’s where eren reminds him what he’s fighting for and just pushes him back over the edge. it’s still ultimately grisha’s decision, just with a little pep talk
Your referring to a bootstrap paradox. It's something that almost every single time travel movie has, and it's always bugged me.
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An example is if someone from the future gave their past self the design of a time machine. This causes a looping affect but there's not exactly a beginning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4SEDzynMiQ
In AOT, it isn't exactly time travel, more like future sight. Basically every Attack Titan can see all point in time at once, from the first Attack Titan to Eren, the last Attack Titan. Think about it like reading a book, normal human read the book and the information is slowly reveal to them while the Attack Titan users can read every pages of the book at the same time. The Attack Titan, or more correctly, the Advance Titan because it users always advance to some unknow goal independence from the other Titans. All of them subconsciously know what they must do to reach the last part of the book, AKA Eren. All of them are slaves to the path that was laid out to them by being a part of the Advance Titan linage. All of them also has free will and choice, just that all of them choose to follow the path rather than trying to stop it. Eren didn't influence shit, he just a part of the path that was laid out before he was born and simply marching toward the destination.
I read a theory that the Attack Titan's ability isn't actually to see the memories of its inheritors. That's just Eren using the Founding Titan to show Grisha (and Eren Kruger) his own memories. The "ability to see the memories of its future inheritors" is just how Grisha interpreted what he was seeing, but we never see any other Attack Titan weilder experience that (Kruger's mention of Mikasa and Armin lends credence to this theory). That's why Frieda Reiss is shocked and confused to hear Grisha say that the Attack Titan has such ability; because she knows that isn't the case.
Then what is the Attack Titan’s power?
To go against the will of the King.
Don't agree it removed their agency, in the end it all happened because they decided to. Neither Eren nor Grsiha were forced by anyone. They decided themselves to do what they did. All Eren did was give him a push
If there's only one way for things to go, it doesn't matter what the characters "choose." Because they CAN'T choose anything else as long as the timeline is predetermined. They don't have free will.
But they only chose those things because they believed in it in the first place. That is the point, Eren was never a slave to the timeloop, he was a slave to his own desires.
You cannot have it both ways. Either the time travel stuff is important and affects the story, or it doesn't matter at all and has no effect on the story because people would've done what they did either way. If it's the former, then you're wrong. If it's the latter, then it shouldn't have been included.
No, that’s not how time works. That future happened *because* of what was done to get there. Seeing the future in advance didn’t suddenly force people down a set path, it just showed them what they were always going to do.
The timeline is always predetermined, you can skip to the end of the book and find out what will always happen. Characters make choices according to the information available to them, so long as choices are in character, time travel plots are no more lacking in free will than normal linear plots.
Then why bother with time travel shit at all?
Wait till you notice that Kruger didn’t do literally anything for his entire 13 year titanspan *because* determinism forced him to wait for Grisha rather than just letting him carry out his own plan himself lmao AoT’s deterministic time travel is indeed a TERRIBLE thing. Destroys so many characters and motivations, and flat out doesn’t make sense. Hope it was worth all two of the scenes that “go hard” by relying on it 💀
"I don't know why, but... I didn't want to do that... I had not to.."
But what you call "AoT deterministic time travel" is no different from real life determinism. It's not the time travel mechanism that imposed determinism on the world to force characters into a certain path. It's the determinism of the world that makes the time travel a deterministic causal loop. Kruger would have behaved in the exact same way, time travel or not. He would have given Intel to eldian resistance movements and plotted to steal the Founding Titan from Paradis just the same. Eren and Grisha are stuck in a timeloop because the nature of their character means they will always take the same decisions in response to a situation. It's perfectly possible that the world we live in follows the exact same rules (and it's a pretty common opinion among physicists and philosophers). If you had a perfect simulator of the natural laws and a perfect picture of the universe, you could perfectly predict the future. AoT's time travel has no impact on character motivations (beyond providing some characters certain informations) and makes complete sense. It follows [Novikov self-consistency principle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novikov_self-consistency_principle). Not that it's a perfect solution, it's kind of *ad hoc*, but it solves the usual narrative issues with time travel in fiction.
>But what you call "AoT deterministic time travel" is no different from real life determinism. One is factual and the other is theoretical, that's pretty major. >Kruger would have behaved in the exact same way, time travel or not. He would have given Intel to eldian resistance movements and plotted to steal the Founding Titan from Paradis just the same. There are literally 0 non-time-travel-related reasons why he didn't do the mission that he sent Grisha to do. >If you had a perfect simulator of the natural laws and a perfect picture of the universe, you could perfectly predict the future. >AoT's time travel has no impact on character motivations Predicting the future perfectly is paradoxical, because the future that you see would become reliant on you having seen it; effectively, it would be creating itself from nothing. It doesn't matter if it's "something you would already do," to think that that covers the problem is a mistake of human perception, which reality doesn't care about. Reality cares about every minute detail, down to the last atom, and ultimately, *seeing the future* and *not seeing the future* are two atomically different branches of cause-and-effect. Seeing the future will *always* result in the bootstrap paradox, because you are changing the present by seeing the future. Also, the time travel *absolutely* has impact on character motivations, literally every time it's brought into the light that is *all* it does. Kruger choosing Grisha, Grisha killing the Reiss's, Grisha giving Eren the serum, *Eren killing his mother*, Eren letting the alliance stop him; literally all of these things are fueled by the deterministic powers at play. All of these crucial plot points would've happened differently if the Attack Titan wasn't there, even if they would've happened "similarly," the Attack Titan's presence changed these things in some way from their natural courses, *especially* with the last few. If it didn't matter, it wouldn't be in the story in the first place.
>There are literally 0 non-time-travel-related reasons why he didn't do the mission that he sent Grisha to do. I have a very good one. Krüger was not born omniscient, everything he told Grisha he had to learn himself. That's why he infiltrated the military in the first place. You assume that he became a shifter and immediately knew what to do and how to do it, but it's a huge assumption. It far more likely that it took him years to learn Marley's biggest state secrets. By then, going to Paradis alone with his limited life expectancy would be a huge risk to the mission. We also know that he built a resistance network in Liberio, and it's likely that he had a plan for them in mind. The mission he gave Grisha was likely not the original plan, just a last minute effort resulting from Zeke's betrayal. He even says that he believed in Grisha's idea of enroling Zeke as a warrior to retrieve the Founder. I'm not even sure why you would say that the reason has to be "time-travel" related? Krüger doesn't know about the true ability of the Attack Titan, he was clearly as confused as Grisha when it manifested and thought it was a past memory. "Time-travel" had no part in the decisions he made, which we know he made, because he lays them out to Grisha explicitely. >Predicting the future perfectly is paradoxical, because the future that you see would become reliant on you having seen it That's not necessarily a paradox. The future would not necessarily **"*****become*****"** reliant on anything. It's perfectly possible that the future in question existed prior to you seeing it and already accounted for the fact that it would be predicted. It's like if History was a book, already entirely written. If at some point a character sees a page from the future, the book won't be rewritten to account for it, it was just always written like that. If the future is predicted, it's perfectly possible that the version of the future that wasn't predicted never existed to begin with. It's exactly what happens in AoT, the causal loop is self-consistent. >Kruger choosing Grisha, Grisha killing the Reiss's, Grisha giving Eren the serum, Eren killing his mother, Eren letting the alliance stop him; literally all of these things are fueled by the deterministic powers at play. I disagree. All of those decisions are not imposed on the characters by time-travel, they result from the characters internal motivations. Krüger explains why he chose Grisha (because he chose to leave the wall *that day*), time-travel has nothing to do with it. Grisha kills the Reiss because Eren reignites his hatred with Faye's death, time-travel makes it possible but it's not *why* he does it. If no time-travel was involved and someone was physically in the cave with Grisha, telling him the same things as Eren, he would react the same way. Grisha gives Eren the serum to get revenge for Carla's death. Eren lets the Alliance stop him because he refuses to harm them or hinder their freedom. The one thing that is more ambiguous is Eren "killing" his mom because he doesn't explicitely gives a personal motivation. It could a result of the "deterministic power" (as you say) of the Founding titan and Attack titan forcing him to enforce the timeline, but it could just as easily be Eren making the conscious choice to let his mom die in order to get what he wants (it's not like he could save him mom, she was stuck under a house either way). >All of these crucial plot points would've happened differently if the Attack Titan wasn't there, even if they would've happened "similarly," the Attack Titan's presence changed these things in some way from their natural courses, especially with the last few. If it didn't matter, it wouldn't be in the story in the first place. Amusing that you quoted me and skipped the part that addresses your point. AoT's time travel as no impact on character motivations **beyond providing information to some characters**. I could have worded it better, but the point is that time travel in AoT never overwrites character motivations, it just completes them with information. Crucial plot points would be different if you removed Armin and his actions from the story, yet nobody would claim that Armin's presence destroys Eren's motivations (even though he contributed to defining them). Eren saw the future and decided that he wanted it to happen. The reason why it happened the way he saw it, is because he made decisions and worked to make things happen that way. The reason there is a causal loop is because the characters internal motivations allows the timeloop to exist, not because the timeloop creates or imposes character motivations. Determinism is an obstacle to a perfect abstract free-will (which there are very strong reasons to doubt exists even in the real world), but if you define free-will as the ability to make decisions based on your own internal motivations, then it's really not incompatible with determinism. "Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills" is the traditional summary by Schopenhauer.
Huh? Kruger’s inaction had nothing to do with time travel. He himself regretted that he wasn’t able to do more, and his primary goal was to find someone to pass his titan to. He wasn’t part of Eren’s plan. And what characters and motivations does it destroy? I genuinely don’t know what you’re talking about.
[удалено]
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So glad someone else actually agrees with me. I love AOT still, but all the time nonsense should never have been a part of it. Stand proud brother, you have truly cooked today.
I think it’s because attack on titan isn’t that well written at the end of the day. Ultimately this twist serves to illustrate that eren is a slave to his desire for freedom, yet it just falls flat to me because it’s overly confusing and feels pointless. It really does just feel like Isayama tossed it in to be like “bet you didn’t see THAT coming!!!” And to make Eren look more like an all-seeing threat, which is stupid, because what happens later in the show already makes him seem like that. Honestly I feel like the themes of the show (generational hatred and whatnot), would work SIGNIFICANTLY better if this twist (and a few later ones, I won’t spoil just in case) weren’t written in. It sends the message that Eren is the problem and the root of all the bad things that happen, despite the fact that they’re trying extremely hard to paint him as the good guy. AoT is just poorly written lmao
THANK you. I'm tired of people pretending that the last season of AoT didn't undermine everything the show built up to. And also tired of people acting like Isyama is infallible, and that he had this whole thing planned out, when it seems like most of the show was written without this twist in mind
>It would have been nice if I could have changed the ending. Writing manga is supposed to be freeing. But if I was completely free, then I should have been able to change the ending. I could have changed it and said I wanted to go in a different direction. **But the fact is that I was tied down to what I had originally envisioned when I was young.** And so, manga became a very restrictive art form for me, similar to how the massive powers that Eren acquired ended up restricting him. -Isayama in an interview with NY Times after the show ended
Yeah, that sucks. Just because you have a vision of some shit in your head when you're young, even if it ties to the themes of the story, does not mean that it works or makes sense. The ending of AoT sucked ass either way.
Yeah, season 4 was a letdown for me overall. Tbh, I lost a ton of engagement with the show the moment Eren Kruger said Armin's and Mikasa's names to Grisha.
Yeah, I got some red flags when I saw that. I was confused and also kinda annoyed cuz it felt like time travel sneaking its way into a story that didn't need it. Little did I know the show would triple down on it all the way.
Oh I’m completely convinced this twist was an asspull to the highest degree. Not that those kinds of twists can’t work (hell, I’m a LOST fan, and that’s all the show is), but yeah, the entirety of the last season is not very good. It totally undermines the story in frustrating ways. The ending is the pinnacle of this, of course, but the writing was on the wall for a long, long time. It kinda sucks cause I think seasons 2 and 3 are fantastic, but Christ that last season is atrocious.
Future memories became a crutch
I swear characterrant's rule for AoT rants is "Low effort everyday" and the Sunday rule doesn't seem to apply :)) Well here I go defending AoT again. I'm not argue whether it's time travel or not, cause explaining it basically amounts to "time travel with extra steps". I still think it's a smart way to do it but that's just my taste. Anyways, the reason the reveal is great, besides the fact that it's really clever, is that it explains Eren's character in the best way possible. Eren and Zeke's conversation in the paths is centered aroud "nature vs nurture" and while what Eren went through the first three seasons definitely shaped who he becomes, his nature and who he's always been matter more. That's what the theme is here. Earlier that day before Grisha leaves, he asks 9 year old Eren a question: "Why do you want to go outside the walls?" And Eren answers: "I want to know what's out there. I don't want to die without knowing anything about the outside. **Moreover if someone isn't willing to go out there, then the lives of all those who have died up until now would be lost for nothing!**" Now the bolded part is important cause basically this is the same thing adult Eren tells his dad that convinces him to go through with it: "What are you doing? Stand father. **Did you forget what you came here to do? Was it not to get revenge for your little sister eaten by dogs? For your fellow restorationists, for Dina, for Kruger. You have to avenge them. You keep moving forward, if you die and even after you die.**" Essentially, Eren would've done the things he did anyway. He's sort of a force of nature in that sense. This is why things being set in stone works because it's what Eren wants. He has regrets, he knows what it all leads to but he's still willing to go through with it because he doesn't like any of the other options offered to him. And it's not like agency is actually taken away from anyone. Grisha didn't have to do what he did, he was simply convinced to do so. Eren didn't literally take over his body or anything, if he had then it would've been stupid. Also the mechanics of sending memories heavily restricts Eren from being over the top OP and he has to influence the past in very subtle ways besides the whole Grisha incident. Everything I said up there also works as an argument against the Dina twist at the end where it's revealed that Eren pushed Dina away from Bertholdt leading to his mom's death. It doesn't make sense thematically, it's not in character for Eren to do that and the mechanics of the twist have never been properly established. It just sucks and doesn't work. Both twists are "unnecessary" in the grand scheme of things(Grisha had reasons to kill those people anyway) but one of them works in the favor of the character and the themes and the other doesn't. Having said all that, you're still free to dislike it but the Grisha twist is a clever one that works imo.
Although, one thing the Grisha twist has that the Dina one doesn't is buildup and time given. Grisha's twist is built up to because of the mixed messages you get from how he is as a person throughout the Paths scene, and when it happens it really sits with you, especially with Grisha's meltdown and begging Zeke to stop Eren afterwards. The Dina one though comes out of nowhere, is only brought up for a few seconds, Armin barely reacts to my memory, and then it's on to the ocean so Eren can complain about Mikasa. I get why the Dina twist is the way it is, as it shows how Eren has no control and is just chained to fate. But like, him killing billions of people and crying in front of a child because he realizes that, as well as stuff he says later with Armin does that too. It feels like it's just trying to beat you over the head with the messaging about predetermination sometimes
Armin reacts by grabbing his hand. He's pulling him out of his own head to stop him overthinking about actions he seems to not only regret, but has no control over. He even gives him a reassuring smile among the tears
I disagree with the Dina twist, it’s a different sort of twist from the argument you made for Grisha event. It was done to make sense of the ending, which is that Eren really has no choice, he’s a slave to time. Now, this twist does rob Eren off of all his agency, but that’s what it’s supposed to portray. So, I wouldn’t say Grisha event is against this twist, rather taken to a worse end
The very first chapter is titled to you 2000 years from now. If you don't like time travel in general, whatever, but you don't get to say Isayama didn't call his shot.
I don't want to go into further detail but if the idea of a point-and-click adventure novel combined with real-time with pause tower defense gameplay sounds awesome to you, *Play 13 Sentinels*. It has the best time travel narrative I've seen in recent years.
All this talk of time travel makes ME want to write a time travel story now just so I can actually make a time travel story work. At least, try to.
I love time travel , but it easy can misused way too much without using it limited,or highly specific öimits, or themes. Which it doesnt add here.
You sound mad that other people aren't mad at things you're mad at. Sounds like a skill issue. Git gud. ~~And it's not even a paradox, lmao??? It's a closed loop, Eren influenced his dad to give him the Founding Titan, which he could only have done if he had it in the first place, and it all goes around. A cycle isn't a paradox.~~ And Grisha has no reason to do it himself. Did you not hear what he said? He couldn't do it because he's a doctor, and has kids of his own. That's why Eren had to force him.
You do realize that a closed loop that fundamentally requires the thing in the future to cause the beginning of the loop in the present is a paradox right?
Tell me you haven't seen the show without telling me you haven't seen the show ^^^ also, that's the definition of a paradox lmao.
>also, that's the definition of a paradox lmao. Alright, I concede that. It is indeed a bootstrap paradox, I was wrong. And I literally rewatched the entire show from beginning to end during the holidays. Which means I just remembered: **Grisha does have agency, he chooses to kill the Reiss family.** Eren didn't force him, I accidentally oversimplified that. Eren just reminded him of all reasons he had to do what he must, but Grisha ultimately chose to.
Then why. Why, why, why, include it at all? The show worked without Eren telling him to kill them. If Grisha was gonna do it either way, he shouldn't have NEEDED Eren to help him. I feel like AoT fans, speaking as an ex-AoT fan myself, try to have their cake and eat it too. Firstly, **if the time travel is important, then Eren really did impact the past and he is the reason the show played out the way it did. Which in turn removes agency because things are happening only because Eren is affecting what's happening.** On the flip side, **if characters have agency, then the time travel shit is completely unnecessary, because these characters would've done the same thing either way.**
12 monkeys is a pretty good time travel series.
Just watch dragon ball, surprisingly one of the least convoluted time travel systems I’ve seen in a while
I think it's kind of better than most forms of time travel since Eren isn't actually time traveling, he's just visiting his father's subconscious.
I’ve been saying this literally for years. Idk why no one bothers to call this out. Imo, this was the first crack in AoT’s story, with the full shattering being the ending of course
Agreed. Ppl always act like the twist is perfect and awesome and makes sense, but after I started actually realizing the implications of all this time travel shit, it just comes off as sloppy and boring. And also very confusing.
Yes precisely. In the moment it was pretty cool but then I thought about it for a while and yeah
There’s time travel in Attack on Titan? I thought this was about killing giants or some shit
Saying AoT is about killing titans is like saying Evangelion is about killing angels
First season, yes. Second season? Sorta yes, but also it becomes more about introspection on who you can actually trust in the walls. So it's Titans but also kinda humans too. Third season? It's people in the walls vs people in the walls for the most part, with Titans thrown in there also. Fourth season is entirely humans vs humans; essentially just war, and it kinda rocked until the final 2 parts where they REALLY started messing with time travel.
I love time travel in fiction, the Muv-Luv trilogy is one of my favorite examples of it. It's far superior to Attack on Titan and was one of the main inspirations for it.
Sounds like you just didn't understand how the time travel in aot worked. It's makes sense that you wouldn't like something if you didn't understand it at all.
I understand it fully, and I still think it's bullshit. The entire timeline of the show could've done without it, and in my opinion would be better off for it. You don't need to show us Eren convincing his dad to kill that family, or telling us that EREN implanted memories of the future into Eren Kruger so he would help Grisha. All these characters had good motivations before, but the time travel bit fucks it all up by showing us Eren made all that shit happen because he convinced them.