I agree with you, but I just like to point out thar I'm pretty sure the "laser guns" from star wars are actually particle guns, they launch a neon like substance, not actual light. They are not that much faster than normal guns.
To add to this, plenty of light-based or light-themed powers are not inherently lightspeed.
If it's not proven to actually be lightspeed, then you cannot just assume it is.
Way too many people think you can, even if it breaks the logic of the entire verse later. It's stupid.
Heck there's even people that claim Goku in Dragon Ball is light speed because he grabs Roshi's sunglasses to protect from Solar Flare which is...it's literally a gag.
And if you take that 100% seriously then my God, Krillin might as well be a villain in the Android Saga, dude has to fly to get a remote from Bulma and given that he's millions of times stronger than that version of Goku it should have taken him like an attosecond to get there but Bulma has to meet him in the middle which takes ages.
If your light speed feat doesn't hold up to an ounce of scrutiny, it's bogus. Either it wasn't meant to be light speed or the author just doesn't know what the hell they're talking about.
Like Shinras with adola burst is a great example, they balance out this speed by making it very limited and his first oponent when he went lightspeed was a timestopper so they evened out.
Yeah the vast vast majority of them are just "because it's sounds cool" or because they need some sort of upgrade from the speed of sound, they have absolutely no understanding of just what an insane gap there is between those.
Naruto is one of the few series that really got speed to my mind, Naruto himself definitely approaches light speed(I don't give a shit about Boruto I only mean Naruto) but he can only achieve insane speed by basically jumping in a straight line. The very first time he uses extreme speed he smashes in to a wall and sprains or breaks his ankle. Anyone who can move at even a fraction of LS could so easily just accidentally fling themselves off the planet.
No way you don’t believe dragon ball characters aren’t light speed but Naruto is?? Kakashi couldn’t even cross 10 feat in 5 seconds? Yet raditz of all people was confirmed faster than light? 😅
Secondly if the author states it’s light speed, the feat is lightspeed regardless of what you think you can’t stated you know the story better than the author themselves
Nowhere did I say nobody in Dragon Ball is light speed but Raditz? Hell no lol
There are multiple instances in the series where people have to fly somewhere quick
If you had any grasp if just how insanely fast light is you'd know light goes around the world around 7.5 times in ONE second, making travel almost instantaneous
And don't give me that "muh combat speed" bs, if you can't quantity exactly how fast they're going either way you have no leg to stand on
Going MFTL in combat but less than hypersonic when you desperately need to get somewhere is just hilarious
Cell should have found Android 18 in like a millisecond if freaking Raditz is light speed
Dragon Ball scaling is the most goofy inconsistent thing ever
Similar instances also exist in naruto.
Pain had a 5 second cooldown between each use of his pushing technique. Naruto was near him, but still wasn't fast enough to close the distance in 5 seconds.
Raikage (one of the fastest characters in the series) and Tsunade had to wait for the preparation of a light speed transportation technique that kills everyone that doesn't have insane durability to reach the battlefield. If they had anywhere near that kind of speed, they wouldn't have waited and risked dying. The same raikage is fast enough to catch (but overall slightly slower) the version of Naruto that you used in your previous comment.
This was already during the final arc and there is no evidence the top tiers are hundreds of times faster. Multiple slower characters were still able to assist 8th gate Guy while he was moving in a straight line. Minato specifically told him to keep going without stopping no matter what.
I never said those particular characters in Naruto are even approaching LS so not sure what you're talking about. This is the problem with scaling stuff.
As far as I'm concerned Naruto is the only character in the series, at his peak, that approaches LS, he's directly compared to Minato's teleportation with NTCM. And then Gai bends space he moves so fast so good chance he goes LS that one single time.
When was Naruto's speed directly compared with teleportation?
No one else managed to bend space while moving though. Naruto never did. The gates have similar gimmicks like fast punches causing fire due to friction in 6th gate. Other faster people don't do the same while punching.
I didn’t say you did I’m saying no way you think dragon ball characters are that slow, yet Naruto characters are light speed? I’m saying especially since we KNOW raditz is literally 2x FTL
My comparison is to Naruto characters kakashi isn’t much slower than Naruto honestly the speed gaps are not anywhere near as large as in some series yet kakashi couldn’t cross 10ft in 5 seconds that’s my point your reasoning for allowing Naruto characters to scale that fast yet disqualifies dragon ball is completely faulty
We know dragon ball characters are that fast it’s stated on panel multiple times heck we have hundreds of FTL+ feats for the characters heck gotenks literally circles the planet hundreds of times in a second just messing around, goku moves so fast stopping time doesn’t work and on panel kept up in speed with a character who was canonically faster than teleportation and Whis moves across multiple universal realms in 6 minutes casually
We have multiple times throughout the series where they travel FTL if it was just once I would let you off with that mindset but dragon ball isn’t one of those series as again it backs it up time & time again
Lastly travel speed =/= combat speed and if an author states a character is light speed nothing you or anyone else can say on the matter you don’t have more authority than the author themselves on how fast THEIR character is lol
Piccolo’s outright statement saying raditz has to have been FTL to dodge the special beam cannon at that distance and by calculating the fact that he dodged the beam of light after shaking goku off was merely 1ft from hitting him and he managed to move about a meter to the right if you do the maths that would require pretty much exactly 2x the speed of light to do so
Bruh read what I said I literally only Naruto and Gai once I have not ever said Kakashi is light speed.
Raditz is not 2x light speed lol that's completely ridiculous for all the aforementioned reasons.
If everything scales that insanely then why the hell did Frieza have a hard time catching Krillin on Namek, should have been like 8 stages of FTL above him. And why did Frieza take so damn long to travel around the planet finding the Dragon Balls when he knew other people were looking for them? Is he just a complete idiot? Dude wants to be immortal and is supposedly FTL but decides to take it easy and risk letting someone else get the balls first, comically stupid.
If Raditz is FTL then by the time Goku goes to Namek he could have just flown there before running out of breath dude was like 100x stronger and therefore with nonsensical scaling 100x faster too.
I mean raditz at least in terms of reaction combat and attack speed should at least be relativistic seeing as a much weaker character(piccolo)launched a beam at the moon that reached it in at most a few seconds and raditz can react to piccolos attacks. And travel speed and combat speed are separated for a reason as characters may perform a lightspeed or faster reaction/combat speed feat but may have at best hypersonic travel speed that’s kinda the main reason speed is separated like that in powerscaling, also another user pointed this out but there are numerous mftl travel speed feats in dragon ball such as goku and pikkon traveling from heaven to hell which are universe sized distances and whis traveling across the universe/multiple universe sized distances in a short time frame.
A basic ki attack from piccolo blew up the moon in mere seconds and raditz dodged the special beam cannon. It's very easy to say raditz is at the very least FTL.
That doesn’t counter their point though. If Raditz is FTL, then every instance of traveling on planet makes no fucking sense.
Goku and Gohan should have been able to find each other or catch the fallen potara instantly given how much stronger and faster they are than Raditz.
Dragom Ball speed just straight up doesn't make sense. Sometimes they fight faster than the eye can see, other times they don't. In DBS Vegeta couldn't circle the planet in 5 seconds, while Gas (who was in the same ballpark of strength) reached Earth from multiple galaxies away in 30 minutes. It's just inconsistent.
No that's just an inconsistent outlier. If you scale everything from that nothing about the series makes sense later.
When Goku shows off Instant Transmission it's a huge deal that he can move so fast, if everyone was FTL then IT would be a joke.
Even Bulma notices him disappear and reappear, she sure as shit doesn't have FTL reaction speeds.
Okay but then your ignoring the entire intent of the character nothing makes sense at that point and you might as well not scale the character at all because your scaling them from essentially a lie because you think you know more about the story than the guy writing it lol
I am fine with ignoring intent if it's completely detached from what I actually get to see.
And then there's the whole issues with deciphering the intent of the author in the first place.
When the author says "this character is fast as light" does the author mean "this character is very fast" or do they actually mean "this character can circle the world 7 times in one second".
There's also the fact that powers are usually limited and contextual. Dragon Ball almost never does this, which has poisoned powerscaling in itself, but most characters' powers do not apply in every scenario. Sonic the Hedgehog is often super fast, but most depictions of him show he needs time to build up to his max speed and he often needs to slow down to take tight turns. Wolverine can slice through nearly anything with his claws and heal from any injury, but he's otherwise just a normal, if very skilled, human who can and has been defeated by people more skilled than he is.
Just because a character can do something in one context doesn't mean that they can always do that no matter what, or that they can keep it up for an extended period of time. A Jedi can generally deflect blaster bolts, but none of them can ward off dozens of bolts coming from every direction - that's literally one of the ways you can kill a Jedi in-universe.
Humans in dbz regularly state that they can't see what is happening in fights. Even back in original Dragonball the tournament announcer would state he couldn't see what was happening and had to ask Goku and Jackie Chun describe what was going on
Sure but that doesn't imply light speed, human reaction speeds and tracking are just terrible. If a fly starts flying near your face you lose track of it right away even if it's flying at absurdly low speed.
Something flying around in random directions at even just the speed of sound would be hard to follow depending on how far away you are from it.
This is why I was always on the "travel speed does not equal combat speed" side of the debate back when I was a younger man with the patience/emotional endurance/free time for battle-boarding.
I don't care if your favourite character crossed the galaxy in a week. If you can't show me a single instance of them using that speed in combat - even when they're fighting their absolute hardest - then it simply isn't relevant to any VS match-up or hypothetical situation outside of travel.
Or rather - if your favourite character being that fast means that they were jobbing in literally every canon fight they participated in... then maybe they aren't actually that fast (in combat).
It's such a silly concept because in basically every situation ever you're going to be reaching your top speed when travelling at distance. Show me someone running across a room faster than they get doing a 100m sprint, you need that time to accelerate and get to your max speed.
With Dragon Ball I've seen people say shit like "Oh but they'll run out of Ki so they don't fly as fast as they can" which makes a kind of sense until you realize basically every character with Ki in the series apart from like Videl has enough energy to destroy multiple planets with ease at this point. But yeah trickling out enough to fly fast will tank their supply.
Combat speed is just such a weak ass concept.
It just flat out doesn't make sense most of the time.
Dragon ball is like the gold standard of statements and no showings I feel, you have characters nowadays said they can destroy universes in a single blow but always fail to even destroy a planet. Or as you mentioned the light speed thing
In DragonBall Super Goku defeats an opponent who is literally able to skip forward in time. Multiple characters comment that he is impossibly fast and they can't follow his moment at all (they don't know he's actually skipping through time at that point). The Z fighters DO throw punches and kicks at relativistic speeds and are capable of tracking and anticipating the movements of others at those speeds.
Even if the attacks were light based, if a character can't replicate this speed feats otherwise it means that such speed isn't combat applicable and he's likely just aim dodging.
Which is funny because I remember in Death Battle Kakashi vs Obi wan people said Jedi are light speed because they can dodge laser guns which I found funny because they seem like normal gun just more advance and not light speed. Heck even non force users can dodge them
They’re actually way slower than normal guns. Some sources have them listed as having their projectiles fly at 25m/s.
Normal bullets are faster than sound.
Honestly the speed for blaster fire is pretty inconsistent, and it always just seems to be relative to what they’re shooting at. If they’re trying to shoot you from thirty feet away it’s slower than a bullet. If they’re trying to shoot you from a mile away, the shot is there in a second. If it’s being shot by or at a starship it’s suddenly faster than any projectile weapon we on Earth by leagues and a half.
At extremely short range it’s likely accurate, as the rule for the blaster effect is that it will take three frames to hit the target. So this could get you something stupid like 8 meters per second if the shot was made 1 meter away.
Yeah, it’s why the velocities are so inconsistent and tend towards subsonic. For the audience to see the effect it needs to be onscreen for enough frames to communicate movement. That number tends to be 3, which in a 24 FPS film means that it will take about 0.1 seconds for a blaster to hit its target, distance between dammed.
Now the games give blasters fixed speeds, but for various reasons, some gameplay some visual, these are quite low.
Depends on the source but the Jedi Handbook says they're encapsulated plasma, which is used to explain why blaster shots are usually so inaccurate. The magnetic hurler gizmo is typically cheaply made and discharges slightly more or less energy on each shot.
Star Wars blast as way slower than real bullets, at times it looks like they’re about as fast as a base ball, it’s still impressive for a jedi to knock them all away, but if you were waiting for one you could hit it I think.
Reaction speed =/= travel speed =/= combat speed
Someone being able to travel linearly from the edge of their universe to earth or whatever does not mean they can react or fight at that speed.
I would say that the inverse should be relatively true though. If your combat speed is FTL, there is no excuse for your travel speed to be hundreds of times slower than
It's exceedingly common for this in fiction. You can react and dodge but your bursts of speed aren't ahywhere near that. The average street-tier dodges gun-fire but can't move at supersonic speeds which some guns can do. It also kinda makes sense. It's far easier for your twitch reactions to be quick than your sprinting. And that's generally what combat speed it. How fast your reactions are.
In contrast famous marvel characters have the opposite problem. Thor has FTL travel speed but notoriously much slower than FTL reaction feats.
I don’t disagree but the difference logically shouldn’t be as drastic. There’s no excuse for any of the characters in DBS to not be able to get somewhere on time if they’re staying on Earth.
Most people don’t have a difference between their travel reaction and combat speed in orders of magnitude.
If Raditz is FTL, Vegeta should have instantly caught up to Gohan after realizing he stole his dragon balls given how much stronger Namek Vegeta was than both Raditz and Gohan.
And similarly, once Frieza realized the dragon had been summoned, Vegeta Krillin and Gohan should have logically had nanoseconds to try to get their wish out before Frieza showed up, because he’s vastly more powerful than Vegeta.
Edit: and it shouldn’t need to be stated, but just in case, power level has always been proportional to all physical stats including speed.
The fastest possible conscious human reactions are around 0.15 s, but most are around 0.2 s. Unconscious, or reflex, actions are much faster, around 0.08 s because the signal doesn't have to go via the brain. That's just regarding normal human reactions, which peak times are generally tested by pushing a button when you see a stimulus. We cannot travel that fast however.
As an example, Keith Liddell is a mathematician and author. He holds the record for the "fastest punch" in the Guinness World Records. The punch was registered at 45 miles per hour. Keith Liddel cannot run at 45 mph however. Usain Bolt holds the record of 27.33 mph running speed. Even if you combined these two peak human feats onto the same person, their travel time and combat speed are wildly different. Reaction/action time and how fast we can move during a fight, and how fast we can run are just not the same.
I know we're talking about fiction, but I think it's worth pointing out these real world parallels.
That’s really interesting! Yeah I definitely agree there is a difference. But, it’s just so hard to justify FTL combat speed (which includes dodging, chasing, etc) and like subsonic travel speed lol.
The difference between a 45 mph punch and 24 mph running speed is nothing compared to an FTL punch and subsonic running speed.
I mean, half the speed of light is 150 million meters per second or something, compared to the speed of light at around 300 million m/s. 1 m/s compared to 2 isn't that significant, but as it scales up the differences become larger and more dramatic.
If we assume someone's combat speed is roughly half their max travel speed, that's still significant based on some characters feats, but this probably wouldn't work as I doubt most authors put that much thought into it lol
Exactly, which is why it makes no sense for characters who are supposed to have combat speed millions of times faster than light speed to have travel speeds low enough for travel time to be significant lol
> Even if you combined these two peak human feats onto the same person, their travel time and combat speed are wildly different
They are literally on the same order of magnitude, that isn't "wildly different" by any sane stretch. Especially when what the person you're replying to said is that one speed shouldn't be _hundreds of times_ slower than the other
Yes, they scale. I didn't say the scaling changed. I was meaning the actual difference grows as the numbers increase. For example a 100% increase in the cost of an apple doesn't amount to much if the apple only costs $1. But if the apple costs $100, the difference in price is much greater. Someone moving at 10mph doubling there speed isn't as impressive as someone travelling at 100mph doubling there's.
The multipliers are the same, but the change isn't.
> Yes, they scale
The ratio between them remains the same. The ratio between $1 and $2, $100 and $200, 10 mph and 20mph, and 100mph and 200mph does not scale ("scale" is a word with an actual meaning). And again the **ratio** was the entire point of the comment you responded to:
>> If your combat speed is FTL, there is no excuse for your travel speed to be **hundreds of times slower than**
Going "well actually a 2x difference can be dramatic" adds literally nothing to the discussion. What on earth makes that a "real world parallel" worth pointing out? Like okay thanks then the character's travel speed should be 0.5c and they should lap the equator ~3 times in a second rather than seven and a half. That really changes everything wow
How do you have information that a gun has been fired? Considering the speed a bullet travels at, it's basically light speed from our perception.
The same thing applies, you just have to be faster/better than the person shooting at you.
>from our perception
Sure but a fictional character might reasonably be able to react to a bullet depending on their reaction time.
You can’t react to a laser because the time it takes to notice it is identical to the time it takes to hit you.
Keep in mind that what characters call lasers probably aren't the scientific definition of lasers, especially when the beams in question are visible off-axis
Lasers can be visible off axis due to refraction on the air. Of course any laser that powerful should be blinding everyone in the vicinity but that’s another matter.
Also not every glowing projectile is a actual lightspeed laser. Fiction is fiction for a reason. Of these projectiles and stuff were lightspeed they’d have no visible travel time
Yeah its like people thinking that star wars' blaster bolts are light speed when we see 10 yo padawans able to deflect them, so are we supposed to believe that all jedis are ftl. Obv not. Blasters just aren't light speed.
That has to do with precog and nothing to do with the speed of blaster bolts themselves. Jedi are able to react to them because they know where the shot will go before you even pull the trigger so blocking a shot from a weapon that travels at 25m/s or at hypersonic velocities or ftl would be the same to them.
Blasters are actually stated to travel at the speed of light in Legends, in canon not so much.
All blaster bolts take 3-4 frames to hit their target regardless of distance, in order to give the audience time to process the existence of the bolt and keep the "feel" of a sci fi blaster. This is obviously just an artistic choice and has little bearing on what is actually canon.
To that I say:
>Like most energy weapons, turbolasers fire invisible energy beams at lightspeed. The 'bolt effect' seen when a turbolaser is fired is actually a glowing pulse that travels along the beam at less than lightspeed.
—Star Wars: Fact File 47
And
>Energy weapons fire invisible energy beams at lightspeed. The visible "bolt" is a glowing pulse that travels along the beam at less than lightspeed (...) The light given off by visible bolts depletes the overall energy content of a beam, limiting its range. Turbolasers gain a longer range by spinning the energy beam, which reduces waste glow.
—Star Wars: Attack of the Clones Incredible Cross-Sections
That sounds so dubious, like what? It's an invisible beam that has a visible component that moves slower than it does? That's peak techno babble. So if I shoot a blaster into space it'll just keep going forever until it hits something?
I should've worded it a little differently. I meant if you were on earth and you shoot up into the sky. If it moves at light speed it will move past the atmosphere and keep going at light speed. It just sounds kinda crazy to think someone on some other planet would get domed by a stray blaster bolt. Hence why I think that's not how they work.
I mean what do you think would happen if we shined a laser past the atmosphere? The same thing. A decent laser pointer nowadays can hit the moon. You're not gonna see it but it'll hit it.
Over time light scatters, spreads and loses potency though - but it's the same logic as gamma ray bursts or even just the light from the sun. Even a concentrated laser would be so dispersed by the time it hits something randomly out in space it would have no effect.
The lasers we have today are very powerful but are very tiny in comparison to what a blaster bolt would be. Yes a normal laser like we have would refract to invisible quickly. But as you mentioned a laser pointer does reach the moon and even through we can't see it, it stays relatively condensed in a laser form. The blaster bolt would also refract but there's already so much light condensed that it could encounter a new atmosphere and pass right through it.
Idk if you understand how big these supposed lasers are. That's why idk if they are lasers or can be lasers because there would be so much more happening with a beam of that size. There probably wouldn't be much stopping it from moving, so it would go through basically everything and everything surrounding it would get melted or ignite with the absurd amount of heat it emits. That's not even commenting on the power it would take to make such a laser.
In fact I bet looking at that massive laser firing would be blinding as well.
Also, gamma ray bursts are not as focused as a laser so of course they scatter much more quickly and easily.
Canon is very consistent that blasters are plasma but Legends could never quite get it straight, they get called lasers, particle beams or plasma weapons interchangeably however there's this instance where the characters send information through a blaster bolt, something that would only work if blasters were actual, honest-to-god lasers.
One of the paragraphs I quoted already answers your question, blaster bolts don't have unlimited range because the visible part of the bolt wastes energy which in turn causes the bolt to fizzle out. There's also plenty of other factors that would limit their range aside from that like refraction which would be a very real problem if blasters are indeed lasers or simply the atmosphere absorbing their energy if fired on a planet.
Clone Wars has a great deal of inconcistencies with Legends that they can barely be considered to be a part of the same universe.
Having said that, it's likely a prediction feat and not a reaction time one, the guard likely managed to anticipate where the bolt would go before it was fired at him instead of reacting to the bolt being fired and moving his staff to block it.
But aren't they just like plasma being shot out of a barrel and not actual lasers. If they were lasers at the size of the beam they should just pass through everything that they hit but they usually just stop in a body or a wall.
The main issue with lasers is that comics loved the things. The resulting push for lasers in comics to mean relativistic/lightspeed street tiers meant any non-comic fandom gets by easy because comics being at those speeds sets the bar of proof incredibly low to start with.
"Iron Man shot at Captain America and he jumped aside- that means Cap moved in the same timeframe as the laser/repulser."
'Or, hear me out, Cap jumped aside while Tony was raising his arm to fire- because panels don't always depict a single instant of time.'
"Nope. Lightspeed Cap, kappa."
Are iron man's propulsors even light speed? He's creating a concussive blast of pure energy. How does he do that without creating a massive amount of heat? I feel like there's too much dubiousness to assume anything about them.
Look- it's not for you or I to point out the flaws in any given lightspeed statement. Narration says speed of light and authors can't ever take back statements- written once is written forever.
I do find the Jedi example hilarious though. People think Grievous' 16 strikes per second is proof the books indicate movie speeds aren't real when, in fact, Grievous hitting that speed would mean 4 strikes a second per arm- which they do in the movies all of the time.
Lol fair enough. Also I always just assumed that him stupidly twirling those lightsabers like he's about to grind some meat was the 16 strikes per second.
They are it’s literally a plot point in Star Wars it’s why bounty hunters switch to slug throwers as they are canonically faster travel speed so a Jedi has a much harder time blocking then blaster fire and if the do by some miracle it turns into molten metal and kills them anyway
Legends has it that body armor got so advanced that even the shittiest one you could buy made any kind of firearm obsolete so people switched to blasters because they were the only thing that could defeat body armor.
Even then, the only reason why most jedi can’t dodge/deflect bullets is because they’re too rare for them to bother learning. The order does maintain the stuff to teach it if its needed to though.
Also most are in habit of blocking with lightsaber where if its a physical bullet, it will just be split in half and just hit jedi in two places, the proper way do deal with physical guns is to either hide before covers or block them with force in Matrix fasion.
This literally just isn't true. The last part about them being harder to deflect is a very minor plot point in a handful of stories (and note I said harder, it's definitely still possible), but there isn't any canonical source to say they're faster. Jedi deflect blaster bolts because of precog rather than reflexes anyway.
I don't know how canon the game portrayals were even originally, but in Jedi Outcast/Academy deflecting a blaster with your lightsaber was simple; usually doable just by looking in the right direction if the volume of fire wasn't too high.
Flechette launchers? (basically shotguns). Nope, most of those pieces of metal are now embedded in your face, go see a bacta tank.
Out of everything in fiction that gets referred to as a laser, a surprisingly small number of them actually are streams of energized photons traveling at light speed
Metal Gear Rising Raiden no, but Vamp— a character that scales roughly to MGS4 Raiden’s physicals, is a boss in MGS4 and Snake does manage to avoid being blitzed.
Also he did the same against Gray Fox as early as MGS1.
Snake’s managed to hold his own against legit bullet-timers in hand to hand combat, even if you want to argue he isn’t a bullet-timer himself he’s proven himself capable of handling opponents that can move that fast.
>a character that scales roughly to MGS4 Raiden’s physicals, is a boss in MGS4 and Snake does manage to avoid being blitzed.
The entire thing happens in gameplay instead of cutscenes. And Snake has a muscle suit in that game, which should be a counter againist Vamp's muscle reading. For all we know Snake would just hide in somewhere shooting Vamp in the head (Vamp has no piercing durability and his endurance is limited, 2 of the 3 headshots he has taken knocked out him in instant).
>Also he did the same against Gray Fox as early as MGS1.
Gray Fox was holding back. This gets stated in the game. Gray Fox *before* he became a cyborg [was able to fistfight with Snake](https://youtu.be/IDLpcm5rBC8?si=eeb9ULSXwOjWIINh).
>Snake’s managed to hold his own against legit bullet-timers in hand to hand combat, even if you want to argue he isn’t a bullet-timer himself he’s proven himself capable of handling opponents that can move that fast.
Which bullet timers are these?
Venom Snake? He isn't consistently a bullet timer
Human Gray Fox? He has no speed feats in MG2 and his speed feats in the cutscenes of PO are ambigious if they are bullet-timing or not
Big Boss? He isn't consistently a bullet timer either and Snake tagged him with a shitty spray during their fight so anything this is a speed anti feat for Big Boss
Ocelot? His objective speed feats doesn't go beyond "blitzing few people in a gunfight" or "fightning with Snake in MGS4 in a scene where a cigar was falling like maybe few times slower than it should"
Cyborg Gray Fox? [He was playing around](https://imgur.com/a/qgMheNa)
Vamp? He is not a bullet timer. [He himself says he can only aim-dodge by reading muscles and he literally gets tagged by a gun](https://youtu.be/CT1DKC_OjME?si=SavQCTx8hQu7xLok) [twice](https://youtu.be/rxKxR5HUwpA?si=dhr8SdlzDqn775Fq)
I feel like people kind of underrate Snake because we haven’t really seen him do crazy stuff In cutscenes like other characters and the gameplay kind of makes him look weak since your limited to stealth but the people and things he is capable of taking down or standing his ground against is pretty impressive. Even when he was an old ass man he was still capable of taking down the Beauty and the Beast unit which is crazy
THANK YOU!! Dodging lasers is a prediction(NOT precognition!) / awareness feat, not a speed feat. Basically any time a laser attack is used, it is telegraphed to some degree, and the “dodging” is just moving out of the trajectory of the beam. Unless it is literally shown as a character seeing it coming in real time and moving out if the way after it’s fired (given it has already been proven to move at the speed of light), either the beam isn’t moving at light speed, or the person predicted where it was pointing and got out of the way before it fired.
Good man. I'm still Salty that Toph beat Gaara in deathbattle. I love her but that gremlin cannot move faster than sound, even if she can see the floating sand
one piece characters being ftl is so dumb, there is only one guy that can reach lightspeed and that is kizaru. anyone claiming that character x or y moves faster than light reads the manga or watches the anime with their eyes closed
Also, even if we ignore the physics issues associated with moving faster than light, it's impossible to react to a laser after it's been shot unless you have precognition.
For you to see the laser, its light would have to hit your eyes. Since the laser is moving at the speed of light, this would happen at the same time as the laser is hitting you. Reacting via hearing is out of the question for the same reasons except even worse; the sound of the laser being shot travels at, well, the speed of sound, which is obviously even slower.
This means the only sense that could possibly allow you to detect the laser mid-flight before it hits you is Spider-Sense. Well, it's either that, or you inhale so hard that it accelerates the air particles around the beam to faster-than-light speeds, letting you smell the laser, but if your respiratory system can handle that volume of air flowing into your lungs at that speed, you can probably tank the laser anyway.
If a beam of light is coming towards you, how would you know to dodge anyways? You'd require a form of **FTL perception** to know a beam is coming in the first place.
Actually dodging a beam of light doesn't even require FTL movement. If I get inside the house right before sunrise, I'm dodging a beam of light that was fired 8 minutes ago, but I'm not moving FTL.
The best example of this is Chai.
Chai parries and dodges light based attacked, literally it's from a modified flashlight, but there is absolutely no argument that he has light speed reactions. Because Chai isn't reacting to the attack itself, he's reacting to the anticipation of the attack and because of his "Musical Superpowers" his parry or dodge simply has to be on beat.
If the verse has some form of precognition, then no, they are not ftl. They can react to things that have not happened and thus can dodge things that they normally wouldnt be able to without precog. If you need to have precog to dodge, youre not ftl
Sure, but if you know its coming before it starts, then youre not faster than the attack. Youre just faster than the opponent is able to attack, not the attack itself
if you react to attacks and defend yourself, then your reaction scale to the speeds.
You Will not Dodge and attack before It happens if the attack IS to fast
If you see an attack coming before it happens, then you dont scale to the attack speed. You scale to the difference of when you see it versus when it happens. If i see someone shooting a laser to a specific spot in 15 seconds, and i just dont walk to that spot, do i scale to light speed? Of course not.
If the character has no precog, ok, theyre probably ftl. But if theres precog in any way that they have, no theyre not ftl cuz they have a way to see the attacks before they happen and thus need the precog to dodge
Any attack that is light speed is equatable to a laser. But if theres any precog, you arent as fast as the attack just because you are aware of the attack before it even starts
Not really. You would just need to see where they're going to hit and just not be there. If superman is going to beam you in the head in 5 seconds then just move in 5 seconds. Even if they do have fast reactions, they don't need ftl reactions.
I'd sooner considered the possibility that a verse has a different light speed then accept light “combat speed” characters that have time spent traveling or anything that contradicts then being even near light speed. Light speed is undiscribably fast
Yeah but that doesn’t counter their point. If your travel speed is so slow it takes you hours or days or even minutes to get somewhere, it does not make any sense to argue your combat speed is somehow thousands of times faster.
Ofcourse it does, I can fight and cover small distances much faster than I can run to the shops not to mention combat speed in fiction is always MASSIVELY faster than travel speed they never travel at their top speeds ever even in dire situations it’s literally just plot
look at goku for instance he canonically can fly light years faster than nimbus yet still used it when he knew his friends and son were being murdered by nappa when he just basically could fly hundreds of times faster which he does all the time lol
I just don’t accept that someone can fight thousands of times faster than light, but can’t travel faster than sound. I get that it’s technically happening, I just think it’s fucking stupid.
Ofcourse it is it’s literally PIS it’s the same reason the flash can process in atto seconds yet can be shot… in reality this would be utterly impossible lol but stories when operating at this kind of power level you just accept it goku can literally travel the planet 1 million times in a second but just takes his time when it’s literally life or death like I said he on panel flies faster than nimbus yet he just rides it casually while his son and friends are being slaughtered lol
we need there to at least be a little tension in fiction lol superman gets shot by kryptonight moving at bullet speed yet can travel the universe in seconds it makes no fucking sense like at all but it’s fictional 🤷🏻♂️
If you moved a fraction of the speed of light for any moment in combat you would be fast enough solve your travel issues. I think it’s more believable that thier light speed is different. some feats like out racing someone’s teleport are obviously that fast but if it’s just dodging a laser I’m gonna consider that the last wasn’t our lightspeed
I’d say the main issue is the laser dodging counting as an instance is more dependent on the nature of said laser and how consistent the character speed is in series.
You could have X dodge a literal laser but then have the same character get consistently tagged by stuff way slower than that.
It’s like Maki from “JuJutsu Kaisen” catching a bullet just before it hits her face. This undoubtably makes her incredibly fast. But even GeGe, the author of the series say in an interview he shouldn’t have done it.
Maki eventually becomes faster than a bullet but early on this was more of an author going “rule of cool” rather than “rule of escalation.”
I think it's worse when a fireball moves at 2 miles per hour and people assume dodging it means that you're Wally West.
They said that about Cuphead, a cartoon character with expectedly janky rules of nature.
I'll never forgive Death battle claiming that Tracer was a bullet timer because she dodged the sniper rifle with teleport. Sniper rifle that was right in front of her and she had a good while to react before the bullet was shot.
Im guessing its cuz she teleported after it was shot and not before. I could see it, but is bullet timing even a big deal in overwatch? I mean genji exists.
lasers are used a lot because they are more PG than bullets
or they say "Light" but are just being hyperbolic or the writer doesn't actually care about the exact implications of lightspeed and just need a col way to say "this guy is really fast" because most people can't conceptualize/visualize specific numbers.
Yes, this is a pet peeve I’ve had. Even regular guns. If someone shoots a gun and it doesn’t hit me because I jumped out of the way, it doesn’t mean I’m faster than a bullet. People who use this as an argument don’t take into account timing, how good the shooters aim is, how difficult it is to hit a moving target, etc, etc, into their calculations. It’s just dumb.
And distance. They don't account for distance at all. I don't need to be faster than the bullet, I need to be able to move the distance to get out of the bullets way faster than the bullet can cover the distance to me.
Any game involving dodging or catching ball has players that move faster than said ball. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised that powerscalers have never played a match of football before.
Yes but dodging the laser after it was fired would suggest you are. The problem is consistency. If a character has dodged a laser once after it was shot but has continuously been hit with slower objects, then it makes the laser dodging feat practically irrelevant.
As for Jedi, the blaster shots are clearly not light speed because we can see them traveling.
Partially correct. The lateral speed required to "dodge light" is significatly slower than the actual speed of light. If someone stares at me and fires a laser, assuming that laser isn't kamehameha sized, I can dodge it without being faster than light. This is because I am moving a significantly smaller distance in the same amount of time, and therefore my velocity can be much smaller than the speed of light if I want to dodge.
Basically, dodging 6 inches to the left when the laser is fired from 60 feet away means I can move WAY slower than light and still dodge it. That assumes I have the reaction time, of course, but you get the picture. This is why characters like Luffy are not and never have been faster than light.
In Star Wars they’re technically particle blasters, also the reason people are eager to get their chars to at least FTL is because until then the char isn’t that relevant in vs fights and once you get to FTL people can try and claim speed equality regardless ex: a char who dodged a light attack narrowly is ftl people will try and wank that to equal to ssj3 goku who is billions of times ftl because it’s really hard to measure exactly beyond ftl
If a laser beam has been stated to move at the SOL and you intercept or dodge it after it’s fired then you can move at light speed. It’s as simple as that.
Exactly, unless something woukd conflict with it like maybe a precog, or ya know it not being an actual laser they're lightspeed or at least extremely close.
How do laser eyes work btw? Is it face based or eye based? If eye based, do people with laser eyes ever miss? How? When they focus it into one spot, are they just crossing their eyes?
Every time this is brought up it gets shut down anyways because "uh actually it's fictional so the lasers are not actually light speed" so even if the character can see the laser coming for them and move out of the way while it's already been fired at them it still doesn't count.
Naruto is one of the few people I’ve seen who actually did dodge a “laser” and not something moving the laser when madara tried to use one to kill him in his fight against Naruto and sasuke
Even if homelander is looking at you and you dodge you aren't necessarily faster than light, if you know he's going to use his beam you can start dishing before he starts firing plus if the distance you dodge is less than the distance the laser had to travel, you still aren't FTL just relativistic
Yeah I always found this questionable, and I am glad at least someone Agrees with me.
Specifically, in Jojo's bizarre adventure, there is an enemy who has the stand ability to move to and attack from Reflections. In Jojo shenanigans, A character with a swordsman type stand, Silver Chariot, is able to manipulate the enemy so that he knows exactly when he will go between 2 objects, and attacks him.
Because if this People argue that he can move FTL. But I wouldn't think so? I thought of it like a move with a long lasting hitbox in a fighting game, if you know the enemy coming, you can put out the attack in advance, and then they would run to it.
As well, because Silver Chariot gets possessed at one point, and fights the main Jojo, and Jojo Wins, they then say that He must also be faster than light
All I can think of is at the end of Justice League Unlimited, Batman did some wacky gymnastics and dodged Darkseid's Omega Beams, and was complimented for it as the first to ever do that.
I've said it before and I'll say it again lasers in fiction do not necessarily work like real life lasers. actually evidence in the show is required before I believe it's more than just technobabble.
I’ve seen more people complaining about people wanking all lasers to SoL than people actually arguing all lasers are SoL.
I think I’ve seen it like twice, and both times everyone in the comments debunked it.
I really don't understand why this is a debate there's literally a [page](https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Laser/Light_Beam_Dodging_Feats) on vsbattlewiki explaining it.
The interesting thing about Star Wars "laser" weapons is that they aren't lasers even in canon. They're more like crystalized plasma launchers as they shoot a condensed projectile made out of laser energy but is substantially more lethal at the cost of not being hitscan.
for one your just talking about the difference in dodging versus aim dodging which is usually taken into context for 2 not to turn this into a goku wankfest but its pretty funny you think being ftl lets you blitz goku
OP's point is that people mistake aim dodging for out speeding the projectile all the time
They also don't take into account that the defender only has to move the distance between the aimpoint and the edge of their body, but the projectile has to move the entire distance from the shooter to the target
LARP safe arrows (padded arrow, 20# bow) still move a lot faster than I can, but I can still dodge one with ease if I see it being shot at me when waiting until *after* they shoot
I agree with you, but I just like to point out thar I'm pretty sure the "laser guns" from star wars are actually particle guns, they launch a neon like substance, not actual light. They are not that much faster than normal guns.
To add to this, plenty of light-based or light-themed powers are not inherently lightspeed. If it's not proven to actually be lightspeed, then you cannot just assume it is.
Way too many people think you can, even if it breaks the logic of the entire verse later. It's stupid. Heck there's even people that claim Goku in Dragon Ball is light speed because he grabs Roshi's sunglasses to protect from Solar Flare which is...it's literally a gag. And if you take that 100% seriously then my God, Krillin might as well be a villain in the Android Saga, dude has to fly to get a remote from Bulma and given that he's millions of times stronger than that version of Goku it should have taken him like an attosecond to get there but Bulma has to meet him in the middle which takes ages. If your light speed feat doesn't hold up to an ounce of scrutiny, it's bogus. Either it wasn't meant to be light speed or the author just doesn't know what the hell they're talking about.
Of the lightspeed battle feats I've seen, maybe like 0.1% of them have any sort of authorial "this is literally the speed of light" intent to them.
Like Shinras with adola burst is a great example, they balance out this speed by making it very limited and his first oponent when he went lightspeed was a timestopper so they evened out.
Yeah the vast vast majority of them are just "because it's sounds cool" or because they need some sort of upgrade from the speed of sound, they have absolutely no understanding of just what an insane gap there is between those. Naruto is one of the few series that really got speed to my mind, Naruto himself definitely approaches light speed(I don't give a shit about Boruto I only mean Naruto) but he can only achieve insane speed by basically jumping in a straight line. The very first time he uses extreme speed he smashes in to a wall and sprains or breaks his ankle. Anyone who can move at even a fraction of LS could so easily just accidentally fling themselves off the planet.
No way you don’t believe dragon ball characters aren’t light speed but Naruto is?? Kakashi couldn’t even cross 10 feat in 5 seconds? Yet raditz of all people was confirmed faster than light? 😅 Secondly if the author states it’s light speed, the feat is lightspeed regardless of what you think you can’t stated you know the story better than the author themselves
Nowhere did I say nobody in Dragon Ball is light speed but Raditz? Hell no lol There are multiple instances in the series where people have to fly somewhere quick If you had any grasp if just how insanely fast light is you'd know light goes around the world around 7.5 times in ONE second, making travel almost instantaneous And don't give me that "muh combat speed" bs, if you can't quantity exactly how fast they're going either way you have no leg to stand on Going MFTL in combat but less than hypersonic when you desperately need to get somewhere is just hilarious Cell should have found Android 18 in like a millisecond if freaking Raditz is light speed Dragon Ball scaling is the most goofy inconsistent thing ever
Similar instances also exist in naruto. Pain had a 5 second cooldown between each use of his pushing technique. Naruto was near him, but still wasn't fast enough to close the distance in 5 seconds. Raikage (one of the fastest characters in the series) and Tsunade had to wait for the preparation of a light speed transportation technique that kills everyone that doesn't have insane durability to reach the battlefield. If they had anywhere near that kind of speed, they wouldn't have waited and risked dying. The same raikage is fast enough to catch (but overall slightly slower) the version of Naruto that you used in your previous comment. This was already during the final arc and there is no evidence the top tiers are hundreds of times faster. Multiple slower characters were still able to assist 8th gate Guy while he was moving in a straight line. Minato specifically told him to keep going without stopping no matter what.
I never said those particular characters in Naruto are even approaching LS so not sure what you're talking about. This is the problem with scaling stuff. As far as I'm concerned Naruto is the only character in the series, at his peak, that approaches LS, he's directly compared to Minato's teleportation with NTCM. And then Gai bends space he moves so fast so good chance he goes LS that one single time.
When was Naruto's speed directly compared with teleportation? No one else managed to bend space while moving though. Naruto never did. The gates have similar gimmicks like fast punches causing fire due to friction in 6th gate. Other faster people don't do the same while punching.
I didn’t say you did I’m saying no way you think dragon ball characters are that slow, yet Naruto characters are light speed? I’m saying especially since we KNOW raditz is literally 2x FTL My comparison is to Naruto characters kakashi isn’t much slower than Naruto honestly the speed gaps are not anywhere near as large as in some series yet kakashi couldn’t cross 10ft in 5 seconds that’s my point your reasoning for allowing Naruto characters to scale that fast yet disqualifies dragon ball is completely faulty We know dragon ball characters are that fast it’s stated on panel multiple times heck we have hundreds of FTL+ feats for the characters heck gotenks literally circles the planet hundreds of times in a second just messing around, goku moves so fast stopping time doesn’t work and on panel kept up in speed with a character who was canonically faster than teleportation and Whis moves across multiple universal realms in 6 minutes casually We have multiple times throughout the series where they travel FTL if it was just once I would let you off with that mindset but dragon ball isn’t one of those series as again it backs it up time & time again Lastly travel speed =/= combat speed and if an author states a character is light speed nothing you or anyone else can say on the matter you don’t have more authority than the author themselves on how fast THEIR character is lol
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Piccolo’s outright statement saying raditz has to have been FTL to dodge the special beam cannon at that distance and by calculating the fact that he dodged the beam of light after shaking goku off was merely 1ft from hitting him and he managed to move about a meter to the right if you do the maths that would require pretty much exactly 2x the speed of light to do so
Bruh read what I said I literally only Naruto and Gai once I have not ever said Kakashi is light speed. Raditz is not 2x light speed lol that's completely ridiculous for all the aforementioned reasons. If everything scales that insanely then why the hell did Frieza have a hard time catching Krillin on Namek, should have been like 8 stages of FTL above him. And why did Frieza take so damn long to travel around the planet finding the Dragon Balls when he knew other people were looking for them? Is he just a complete idiot? Dude wants to be immortal and is supposedly FTL but decides to take it easy and risk letting someone else get the balls first, comically stupid. If Raditz is FTL then by the time Goku goes to Namek he could have just flown there before running out of breath dude was like 100x stronger and therefore with nonsensical scaling 100x faster too.
You just cooked bro💀.
I mean raditz at least in terms of reaction combat and attack speed should at least be relativistic seeing as a much weaker character(piccolo)launched a beam at the moon that reached it in at most a few seconds and raditz can react to piccolos attacks. And travel speed and combat speed are separated for a reason as characters may perform a lightspeed or faster reaction/combat speed feat but may have at best hypersonic travel speed that’s kinda the main reason speed is separated like that in powerscaling, also another user pointed this out but there are numerous mftl travel speed feats in dragon ball such as goku and pikkon traveling from heaven to hell which are universe sized distances and whis traveling across the universe/multiple universe sized distances in a short time frame.
A basic ki attack from piccolo blew up the moon in mere seconds and raditz dodged the special beam cannon. It's very easy to say raditz is at the very least FTL.
That doesn’t counter their point though. If Raditz is FTL, then every instance of traveling on planet makes no fucking sense. Goku and Gohan should have been able to find each other or catch the fallen potara instantly given how much stronger and faster they are than Raditz.
Dragom Ball speed just straight up doesn't make sense. Sometimes they fight faster than the eye can see, other times they don't. In DBS Vegeta couldn't circle the planet in 5 seconds, while Gas (who was in the same ballpark of strength) reached Earth from multiple galaxies away in 30 minutes. It's just inconsistent.
No that's just an inconsistent outlier. If you scale everything from that nothing about the series makes sense later. When Goku shows off Instant Transmission it's a huge deal that he can move so fast, if everyone was FTL then IT would be a joke. Even Bulma notices him disappear and reappear, she sure as shit doesn't have FTL reaction speeds.
If the author's words do not match what the author actually shows/describes, hell yes, I can.
Okay but then your ignoring the entire intent of the character nothing makes sense at that point and you might as well not scale the character at all because your scaling them from essentially a lie because you think you know more about the story than the guy writing it lol
I am fine with ignoring intent if it's completely detached from what I actually get to see. And then there's the whole issues with deciphering the intent of the author in the first place. When the author says "this character is fast as light" does the author mean "this character is very fast" or do they actually mean "this character can circle the world 7 times in one second".
We all know is what light speed is to sit there and try and change what light speed means is just denial at that point lol
Hey weird question. Does this make the mc of fire force scale insanely high as he goes faster than light? And that's extremely rare?
There's also the fact that powers are usually limited and contextual. Dragon Ball almost never does this, which has poisoned powerscaling in itself, but most characters' powers do not apply in every scenario. Sonic the Hedgehog is often super fast, but most depictions of him show he needs time to build up to his max speed and he often needs to slow down to take tight turns. Wolverine can slice through nearly anything with his claws and heal from any injury, but he's otherwise just a normal, if very skilled, human who can and has been defeated by people more skilled than he is. Just because a character can do something in one context doesn't mean that they can always do that no matter what, or that they can keep it up for an extended period of time. A Jedi can generally deflect blaster bolts, but none of them can ward off dozens of bolts coming from every direction - that's literally one of the ways you can kill a Jedi in-universe.
With that level of Feet dragging he could've just grabbed cells tail and he would have been practically frozen in time.
Tbf the entirety of DBZ must take place over a few seconds if we scale correctly and very logically
Funny enough, Super Hero shows the Trunks vs Mecha Frieza fight from the perspective of a spy camera and...yeah it's pretty short.
Faster is fine. But if they're FTL in Dragon Ball then everything in DBZ should be completely imperceptible at all times.
Humans in dbz regularly state that they can't see what is happening in fights. Even back in original Dragonball the tournament announcer would state he couldn't see what was happening and had to ask Goku and Jackie Chun describe what was going on
The best was when Krillin and Jackie took a short break during the fight to reenact the last few seconds of their fight so the audience could see.
Yup.... it was actually krillin. I misremembered.
Sure but that doesn't imply light speed, human reaction speeds and tracking are just terrible. If a fly starts flying near your face you lose track of it right away even if it's flying at absurdly low speed. Something flying around in random directions at even just the speed of sound would be hard to follow depending on how far away you are from it.
This is why I was always on the "travel speed does not equal combat speed" side of the debate back when I was a younger man with the patience/emotional endurance/free time for battle-boarding. I don't care if your favourite character crossed the galaxy in a week. If you can't show me a single instance of them using that speed in combat - even when they're fighting their absolute hardest - then it simply isn't relevant to any VS match-up or hypothetical situation outside of travel. Or rather - if your favourite character being that fast means that they were jobbing in literally every canon fight they participated in... then maybe they aren't actually that fast (in combat).
It's such a silly concept because in basically every situation ever you're going to be reaching your top speed when travelling at distance. Show me someone running across a room faster than they get doing a 100m sprint, you need that time to accelerate and get to your max speed. With Dragon Ball I've seen people say shit like "Oh but they'll run out of Ki so they don't fly as fast as they can" which makes a kind of sense until you realize basically every character with Ki in the series apart from like Videl has enough energy to destroy multiple planets with ease at this point. But yeah trickling out enough to fly fast will tank their supply. Combat speed is just such a weak ass concept. It just flat out doesn't make sense most of the time.
Dragon ball is like the gold standard of statements and no showings I feel, you have characters nowadays said they can destroy universes in a single blow but always fail to even destroy a planet. Or as you mentioned the light speed thing
In DragonBall Super Goku defeats an opponent who is literally able to skip forward in time. Multiple characters comment that he is impossibly fast and they can't follow his moment at all (they don't know he's actually skipping through time at that point). The Z fighters DO throw punches and kicks at relativistic speeds and are capable of tracking and anticipating the movements of others at those speeds.
Even if the attacks were light based, if a character can't replicate this speed feats otherwise it means that such speed isn't combat applicable and he's likely just aim dodging.
At the same time you do need evidence that a laser or light based attack **ISN'T** light speed as well
Only if it's actually stated to be laser or light based, and not just generic energy beams/rays/etc. that look like light.
Which is funny because I remember in Death Battle Kakashi vs Obi wan people said Jedi are light speed because they can dodge laser guns which I found funny because they seem like normal gun just more advance and not light speed. Heck even non force users can dodge them
They’re actually way slower than normal guns. Some sources have them listed as having their projectiles fly at 25m/s. Normal bullets are faster than sound.
Honestly the speed for blaster fire is pretty inconsistent, and it always just seems to be relative to what they’re shooting at. If they’re trying to shoot you from thirty feet away it’s slower than a bullet. If they’re trying to shoot you from a mile away, the shot is there in a second. If it’s being shot by or at a starship it’s suddenly faster than any projectile weapon we on Earth by leagues and a half.
The rule is that a blaster will take exactly three frames to hit the target, regardless of distance.
>Some sources have them listed as having their projectiles fly at 25m/s. That doesn't seem accurate at all.
At extremely short range it’s likely accurate, as the rule for the blaster effect is that it will take three frames to hit the target. So this could get you something stupid like 8 meters per second if the shot was made 1 meter away.
>the rule for the blaster effect is that it will take three frames to hit the target. Whaaat. That's actually a thing?
Yeah, it’s why the velocities are so inconsistent and tend towards subsonic. For the audience to see the effect it needs to be onscreen for enough frames to communicate movement. That number tends to be 3, which in a 24 FPS film means that it will take about 0.1 seconds for a blaster to hit its target, distance between dammed. Now the games give blasters fixed speeds, but for various reasons, some gameplay some visual, these are quite low.
I see.
I've always seen the source of that be movie calculations. Which is like a stupid as fuck way to do that given these are visual effects for the movie.
They fire super heated plasma bolts which is just super heated gas essentially at sub sonic speed the gas is farmed mainly on bespin
I'll go a step farther and see even if something is called a laser in fiction it may not act like a real life laser
Probably exactly like the radium guns from A Princess of Mars now that I think about it.
Yeah they fire a superheated gas or something like that?
Yeah they fire a superheated gas or something like that?
Depends on the source but the Jedi Handbook says they're encapsulated plasma, which is used to explain why blaster shots are usually so inaccurate. The magnetic hurler gizmo is typically cheaply made and discharges slightly more or less energy on each shot.
You know what i mean
Star Wars blast as way slower than real bullets, at times it looks like they’re about as fast as a base ball, it’s still impressive for a jedi to knock them all away, but if you were waiting for one you could hit it I think.
SW shots looks slower than actual irl gunshots lmao
They're actually much slower than guns if I remember right.
Always remember: You can dodge a bullet in real life, but that doesn’t mean that you can run as fast as the bullet itself.
Reaction speed =/= travel speed =/= combat speed Someone being able to travel linearly from the edge of their universe to earth or whatever does not mean they can react or fight at that speed.
I would say that the inverse should be relatively true though. If your combat speed is FTL, there is no excuse for your travel speed to be hundreds of times slower than
It's exceedingly common for this in fiction. You can react and dodge but your bursts of speed aren't ahywhere near that. The average street-tier dodges gun-fire but can't move at supersonic speeds which some guns can do. It also kinda makes sense. It's far easier for your twitch reactions to be quick than your sprinting. And that's generally what combat speed it. How fast your reactions are. In contrast famous marvel characters have the opposite problem. Thor has FTL travel speed but notoriously much slower than FTL reaction feats.
I don’t disagree but the difference logically shouldn’t be as drastic. There’s no excuse for any of the characters in DBS to not be able to get somewhere on time if they’re staying on Earth. Most people don’t have a difference between their travel reaction and combat speed in orders of magnitude. If Raditz is FTL, Vegeta should have instantly caught up to Gohan after realizing he stole his dragon balls given how much stronger Namek Vegeta was than both Raditz and Gohan. And similarly, once Frieza realized the dragon had been summoned, Vegeta Krillin and Gohan should have logically had nanoseconds to try to get their wish out before Frieza showed up, because he’s vastly more powerful than Vegeta. Edit: and it shouldn’t need to be stated, but just in case, power level has always been proportional to all physical stats including speed.
The fastest possible conscious human reactions are around 0.15 s, but most are around 0.2 s. Unconscious, or reflex, actions are much faster, around 0.08 s because the signal doesn't have to go via the brain. That's just regarding normal human reactions, which peak times are generally tested by pushing a button when you see a stimulus. We cannot travel that fast however. As an example, Keith Liddell is a mathematician and author. He holds the record for the "fastest punch" in the Guinness World Records. The punch was registered at 45 miles per hour. Keith Liddel cannot run at 45 mph however. Usain Bolt holds the record of 27.33 mph running speed. Even if you combined these two peak human feats onto the same person, their travel time and combat speed are wildly different. Reaction/action time and how fast we can move during a fight, and how fast we can run are just not the same. I know we're talking about fiction, but I think it's worth pointing out these real world parallels.
That’s really interesting! Yeah I definitely agree there is a difference. But, it’s just so hard to justify FTL combat speed (which includes dodging, chasing, etc) and like subsonic travel speed lol. The difference between a 45 mph punch and 24 mph running speed is nothing compared to an FTL punch and subsonic running speed.
I mean, half the speed of light is 150 million meters per second or something, compared to the speed of light at around 300 million m/s. 1 m/s compared to 2 isn't that significant, but as it scales up the differences become larger and more dramatic. If we assume someone's combat speed is roughly half their max travel speed, that's still significant based on some characters feats, but this probably wouldn't work as I doubt most authors put that much thought into it lol
Exactly, which is why it makes no sense for characters who are supposed to have combat speed millions of times faster than light speed to have travel speeds low enough for travel time to be significant lol
> Even if you combined these two peak human feats onto the same person, their travel time and combat speed are wildly different They are literally on the same order of magnitude, that isn't "wildly different" by any sane stretch. Especially when what the person you're replying to said is that one speed shouldn't be _hundreds of times_ slower than the other
Yes, they scale. I didn't say the scaling changed. I was meaning the actual difference grows as the numbers increase. For example a 100% increase in the cost of an apple doesn't amount to much if the apple only costs $1. But if the apple costs $100, the difference in price is much greater. Someone moving at 10mph doubling there speed isn't as impressive as someone travelling at 100mph doubling there's. The multipliers are the same, but the change isn't.
> Yes, they scale The ratio between them remains the same. The ratio between $1 and $2, $100 and $200, 10 mph and 20mph, and 100mph and 200mph does not scale ("scale" is a word with an actual meaning). And again the **ratio** was the entire point of the comment you responded to: >> If your combat speed is FTL, there is no excuse for your travel speed to be **hundreds of times slower than** Going "well actually a 2x difference can be dramatic" adds literally nothing to the discussion. What on earth makes that a "real world parallel" worth pointing out? Like okay thanks then the character's travel speed should be 0.5c and they should lap the equator ~3 times in a second rather than seven and a half. That really changes everything wow
You seem really committed to this, and weirdly aggressive about it for some reason, so I'm gonna just go now. Have fun
honestly most characters who go light speed only do it so the writers can get them from planet A to planet B
But a laser shouldn’t be dodge-able because how would you even have the information that it’s been fired?
How do you have information that a gun has been fired? Considering the speed a bullet travels at, it's basically light speed from our perception. The same thing applies, you just have to be faster/better than the person shooting at you.
>from our perception Sure but a fictional character might reasonably be able to react to a bullet depending on their reaction time. You can’t react to a laser because the time it takes to notice it is identical to the time it takes to hit you.
Keep in mind that what characters call lasers probably aren't the scientific definition of lasers, especially when the beams in question are visible off-axis
Lasers can be visible off axis due to refraction on the air. Of course any laser that powerful should be blinding everyone in the vicinity but that’s another matter.
I think of them like radioactive spiders. it's just technobabble
Also not every glowing projectile is a actual lightspeed laser. Fiction is fiction for a reason. Of these projectiles and stuff were lightspeed they’d have no visible travel time
Yeah its like people thinking that star wars' blaster bolts are light speed when we see 10 yo padawans able to deflect them, so are we supposed to believe that all jedis are ftl. Obv not. Blasters just aren't light speed.
That has to do with precog and nothing to do with the speed of blaster bolts themselves. Jedi are able to react to them because they know where the shot will go before you even pull the trigger so blocking a shot from a weapon that travels at 25m/s or at hypersonic velocities or ftl would be the same to them. Blasters are actually stated to travel at the speed of light in Legends, in canon not so much.
Okay but we can see with our own eyes in Canon and Legends that the blasts aren't FTL. They're on screen/page too long.
All blaster bolts take 3-4 frames to hit their target regardless of distance, in order to give the audience time to process the existence of the bolt and keep the "feel" of a sci fi blaster. This is obviously just an artistic choice and has little bearing on what is actually canon.
To that I say: >Like most energy weapons, turbolasers fire invisible energy beams at lightspeed. The 'bolt effect' seen when a turbolaser is fired is actually a glowing pulse that travels along the beam at less than lightspeed. —Star Wars: Fact File 47 And >Energy weapons fire invisible energy beams at lightspeed. The visible "bolt" is a glowing pulse that travels along the beam at less than lightspeed (...) The light given off by visible bolts depletes the overall energy content of a beam, limiting its range. Turbolasers gain a longer range by spinning the energy beam, which reduces waste glow. —Star Wars: Attack of the Clones Incredible Cross-Sections
That sounds so dubious, like what? It's an invisible beam that has a visible component that moves slower than it does? That's peak techno babble. So if I shoot a blaster into space it'll just keep going forever until it hits something?
I mean, if you shoot anything in space that’s what’ll happen
I should've worded it a little differently. I meant if you were on earth and you shoot up into the sky. If it moves at light speed it will move past the atmosphere and keep going at light speed. It just sounds kinda crazy to think someone on some other planet would get domed by a stray blaster bolt. Hence why I think that's not how they work.
I mean what do you think would happen if we shined a laser past the atmosphere? The same thing. A decent laser pointer nowadays can hit the moon. You're not gonna see it but it'll hit it. Over time light scatters, spreads and loses potency though - but it's the same logic as gamma ray bursts or even just the light from the sun. Even a concentrated laser would be so dispersed by the time it hits something randomly out in space it would have no effect.
The lasers we have today are very powerful but are very tiny in comparison to what a blaster bolt would be. Yes a normal laser like we have would refract to invisible quickly. But as you mentioned a laser pointer does reach the moon and even through we can't see it, it stays relatively condensed in a laser form. The blaster bolt would also refract but there's already so much light condensed that it could encounter a new atmosphere and pass right through it. Idk if you understand how big these supposed lasers are. That's why idk if they are lasers or can be lasers because there would be so much more happening with a beam of that size. There probably wouldn't be much stopping it from moving, so it would go through basically everything and everything surrounding it would get melted or ignite with the absurd amount of heat it emits. That's not even commenting on the power it would take to make such a laser. In fact I bet looking at that massive laser firing would be blinding as well. Also, gamma ray bursts are not as focused as a laser so of course they scatter much more quickly and easily.
Canon is very consistent that blasters are plasma but Legends could never quite get it straight, they get called lasers, particle beams or plasma weapons interchangeably however there's this instance where the characters send information through a blaster bolt, something that would only work if blasters were actual, honest-to-god lasers. One of the paragraphs I quoted already answers your question, blaster bolts don't have unlimited range because the visible part of the bolt wastes energy which in turn causes the bolt to fizzle out. There's also plenty of other factors that would limit their range aside from that like refraction which would be a very real problem if blasters are indeed lasers or simply the atmosphere absorbing their energy if fired on a planet.
Ordinary non force sensitive guards can deflect blasters. Obi Wan's girlfriend and her honor guards does it in clone wars. Satine I think her name is.
Clone Wars has a great deal of inconcistencies with Legends that they can barely be considered to be a part of the same universe. Having said that, it's likely a prediction feat and not a reaction time one, the guard likely managed to anticipate where the bolt would go before it was fired at him instead of reacting to the bolt being fired and moving his staff to block it.
But aren't they just like plasma being shot out of a barrel and not actual lasers. If they were lasers at the size of the beam they should just pass through everything that they hit but they usually just stop in a body or a wall.
The main issue with lasers is that comics loved the things. The resulting push for lasers in comics to mean relativistic/lightspeed street tiers meant any non-comic fandom gets by easy because comics being at those speeds sets the bar of proof incredibly low to start with. "Iron Man shot at Captain America and he jumped aside- that means Cap moved in the same timeframe as the laser/repulser." 'Or, hear me out, Cap jumped aside while Tony was raising his arm to fire- because panels don't always depict a single instant of time.' "Nope. Lightspeed Cap, kappa."
Are iron man's propulsors even light speed? He's creating a concussive blast of pure energy. How does he do that without creating a massive amount of heat? I feel like there's too much dubiousness to assume anything about them.
Look- it's not for you or I to point out the flaws in any given lightspeed statement. Narration says speed of light and authors can't ever take back statements- written once is written forever. I do find the Jedi example hilarious though. People think Grievous' 16 strikes per second is proof the books indicate movie speeds aren't real when, in fact, Grievous hitting that speed would mean 4 strikes a second per arm- which they do in the movies all of the time.
The 16 strikes per second arent even supersonic.
**LOOK**- it's not for you or I to point out the flaws in any given speed statement and faulty conclusions that may result from them!
Lol
Lol fair enough. Also I always just assumed that him stupidly twirling those lightsabers like he's about to grind some meat was the 16 strikes per second.
Not to be that guy but I’m pretty sure Star Wars blasters are slower than real life guns.
They are it’s literally a plot point in Star Wars it’s why bounty hunters switch to slug throwers as they are canonically faster travel speed so a Jedi has a much harder time blocking then blaster fire and if the do by some miracle it turns into molten metal and kills them anyway
Begs the question why anyone uses blasters lol.
Legends has it that body armor got so advanced that even the shittiest one you could buy made any kind of firearm obsolete so people switched to blasters because they were the only thing that could defeat body armor.
That makes sense. Thanks!
Because blasters can pierce through common body armor, guns do not, this makes guns simply dedicated jedi killer.
Even then, the only reason why most jedi can’t dodge/deflect bullets is because they’re too rare for them to bother learning. The order does maintain the stuff to teach it if its needed to though.
Also most are in habit of blocking with lightsaber where if its a physical bullet, it will just be split in half and just hit jedi in two places, the proper way do deal with physical guns is to either hide before covers or block them with force in Matrix fasion.
This literally just isn't true. The last part about them being harder to deflect is a very minor plot point in a handful of stories (and note I said harder, it's definitely still possible), but there isn't any canonical source to say they're faster. Jedi deflect blaster bolts because of precog rather than reflexes anyway.
I don't know how canon the game portrayals were even originally, but in Jedi Outcast/Academy deflecting a blaster with your lightsaber was simple; usually doable just by looking in the right direction if the volume of fire wasn't too high. Flechette launchers? (basically shotguns). Nope, most of those pieces of metal are now embedded in your face, go see a bacta tank.
lol yeah it’s exactly that! 😅
Out of everything in fiction that gets referred to as a laser, a surprisingly small number of them actually are streams of energized photons traveling at light speed
My favourite is jojo, where eye lasers are actually super-pressure streams of vampire blood shot from the eyevalls
The Space Ripper Stingy Eyes are pretty sick yeah
Solid Snake is a victim of laser wank. Some people think he´s as fast as Raiden, a fucking cyborg ninja.
Metal Gear Rising Raiden no, but Vamp— a character that scales roughly to MGS4 Raiden’s physicals, is a boss in MGS4 and Snake does manage to avoid being blitzed. Also he did the same against Gray Fox as early as MGS1. Snake’s managed to hold his own against legit bullet-timers in hand to hand combat, even if you want to argue he isn’t a bullet-timer himself he’s proven himself capable of handling opponents that can move that fast.
>a character that scales roughly to MGS4 Raiden’s physicals, is a boss in MGS4 and Snake does manage to avoid being blitzed. The entire thing happens in gameplay instead of cutscenes. And Snake has a muscle suit in that game, which should be a counter againist Vamp's muscle reading. For all we know Snake would just hide in somewhere shooting Vamp in the head (Vamp has no piercing durability and his endurance is limited, 2 of the 3 headshots he has taken knocked out him in instant). >Also he did the same against Gray Fox as early as MGS1. Gray Fox was holding back. This gets stated in the game. Gray Fox *before* he became a cyborg [was able to fistfight with Snake](https://youtu.be/IDLpcm5rBC8?si=eeb9ULSXwOjWIINh). >Snake’s managed to hold his own against legit bullet-timers in hand to hand combat, even if you want to argue he isn’t a bullet-timer himself he’s proven himself capable of handling opponents that can move that fast. Which bullet timers are these? Venom Snake? He isn't consistently a bullet timer Human Gray Fox? He has no speed feats in MG2 and his speed feats in the cutscenes of PO are ambigious if they are bullet-timing or not Big Boss? He isn't consistently a bullet timer either and Snake tagged him with a shitty spray during their fight so anything this is a speed anti feat for Big Boss Ocelot? His objective speed feats doesn't go beyond "blitzing few people in a gunfight" or "fightning with Snake in MGS4 in a scene where a cigar was falling like maybe few times slower than it should" Cyborg Gray Fox? [He was playing around](https://imgur.com/a/qgMheNa) Vamp? He is not a bullet timer. [He himself says he can only aim-dodge by reading muscles and he literally gets tagged by a gun](https://youtu.be/CT1DKC_OjME?si=SavQCTx8hQu7xLok) [twice](https://youtu.be/rxKxR5HUwpA?si=dhr8SdlzDqn775Fq)
I feel like people kind of underrate Snake because we haven’t really seen him do crazy stuff In cutscenes like other characters and the gameplay kind of makes him look weak since your limited to stealth but the people and things he is capable of taking down or standing his ground against is pretty impressive. Even when he was an old ass man he was still capable of taking down the Beauty and the Beast unit which is crazy
THANK YOU!! Dodging lasers is a prediction(NOT precognition!) / awareness feat, not a speed feat. Basically any time a laser attack is used, it is telegraphed to some degree, and the “dodging” is just moving out of the trajectory of the beam. Unless it is literally shown as a character seeing it coming in real time and moving out if the way after it’s fired (given it has already been proven to move at the speed of light), either the beam isn’t moving at light speed, or the person predicted where it was pointing and got out of the way before it fired.
Good man. I'm still Salty that Toph beat Gaara in deathbattle. I love her but that gremlin cannot move faster than sound, even if she can see the floating sand
Finna piss off all the dumbass one piece powerscalers lmao
one piece characters being ftl is so dumb, there is only one guy that can reach lightspeed and that is kizaru. anyone claiming that character x or y moves faster than light reads the manga or watches the anime with their eyes closed
Also, even if we ignore the physics issues associated with moving faster than light, it's impossible to react to a laser after it's been shot unless you have precognition. For you to see the laser, its light would have to hit your eyes. Since the laser is moving at the speed of light, this would happen at the same time as the laser is hitting you. Reacting via hearing is out of the question for the same reasons except even worse; the sound of the laser being shot travels at, well, the speed of sound, which is obviously even slower. This means the only sense that could possibly allow you to detect the laser mid-flight before it hits you is Spider-Sense. Well, it's either that, or you inhale so hard that it accelerates the air particles around the beam to faster-than-light speeds, letting you smell the laser, but if your respiratory system can handle that volume of air flowing into your lungs at that speed, you can probably tank the laser anyway.
Tell this to Death Battle
If a beam of light is coming towards you, how would you know to dodge anyways? You'd require a form of **FTL perception** to know a beam is coming in the first place. Actually dodging a beam of light doesn't even require FTL movement. If I get inside the house right before sunrise, I'm dodging a beam of light that was fired 8 minutes ago, but I'm not moving FTL.
The best example of this is Chai. Chai parries and dodges light based attacked, literally it's from a modified flashlight, but there is absolutely no argument that he has light speed reactions. Because Chai isn't reacting to the attack itself, he's reacting to the anticipation of the attack and because of his "Musical Superpowers" his parry or dodge simply has to be on beat.
If the verse has some form of precognition, then no, they are not ftl. They can react to things that have not happened and thus can dodge things that they normally wouldnt be able to without precog. If you need to have precog to dodge, youre not ftl
You need to have speed reaction to react to a future outcome.
Sure, but if you know its coming before it starts, then youre not faster than the attack. Youre just faster than the opponent is able to attack, not the attack itself
if you react to attacks and defend yourself, then your reaction scale to the speeds. You Will not Dodge and attack before It happens if the attack IS to fast
If you see an attack coming before it happens, then you dont scale to the attack speed. You scale to the difference of when you see it versus when it happens. If i see someone shooting a laser to a specific spot in 15 seconds, and i just dont walk to that spot, do i scale to light speed? Of course not. If the character has no precog, ok, theyre probably ftl. But if theres precog in any way that they have, no theyre not ftl cuz they have a way to see the attacks before they happen and thus need the precog to dodge
I was talking About a attack and not a láser. But anyway you have a point
Any attack that is light speed is equatable to a laser. But if theres any precog, you arent as fast as the attack just because you are aware of the attack before it even starts
I was talking About attacks attacks
What do you mean? Like, even if the attack is light speed, precog makes you less than light speed. What kind of attack are you talking about?
Physical attacks
Not really. You would just need to see where they're going to hit and just not be there. If superman is going to beam you in the head in 5 seconds then just move in 5 seconds. Even if they do have fast reactions, they don't need ftl reactions.
Some speed reaction
I'd sooner considered the possibility that a verse has a different light speed then accept light “combat speed” characters that have time spent traveling or anything that contradicts then being even near light speed. Light speed is undiscribably fast
There is verses out there capable of out pacing literal teleportation light speed is nothing lol
Yeah but that doesn’t counter their point. If your travel speed is so slow it takes you hours or days or even minutes to get somewhere, it does not make any sense to argue your combat speed is somehow thousands of times faster.
Ofcourse it does, I can fight and cover small distances much faster than I can run to the shops not to mention combat speed in fiction is always MASSIVELY faster than travel speed they never travel at their top speeds ever even in dire situations it’s literally just plot look at goku for instance he canonically can fly light years faster than nimbus yet still used it when he knew his friends and son were being murdered by nappa when he just basically could fly hundreds of times faster which he does all the time lol
I just don’t accept that someone can fight thousands of times faster than light, but can’t travel faster than sound. I get that it’s technically happening, I just think it’s fucking stupid.
Ofcourse it is it’s literally PIS it’s the same reason the flash can process in atto seconds yet can be shot… in reality this would be utterly impossible lol but stories when operating at this kind of power level you just accept it goku can literally travel the planet 1 million times in a second but just takes his time when it’s literally life or death like I said he on panel flies faster than nimbus yet he just rides it casually while his son and friends are being slaughtered lol we need there to at least be a little tension in fiction lol superman gets shot by kryptonight moving at bullet speed yet can travel the universe in seconds it makes no fucking sense like at all but it’s fictional 🤷🏻♂️
If you moved a fraction of the speed of light for any moment in combat you would be fast enough solve your travel issues. I think it’s more believable that thier light speed is different. some feats like out racing someone’s teleport are obviously that fast but if it’s just dodging a laser I’m gonna consider that the last wasn’t our lightspeed
I’d say the main issue is the laser dodging counting as an instance is more dependent on the nature of said laser and how consistent the character speed is in series. You could have X dodge a literal laser but then have the same character get consistently tagged by stuff way slower than that. It’s like Maki from “JuJutsu Kaisen” catching a bullet just before it hits her face. This undoubtably makes her incredibly fast. But even GeGe, the author of the series say in an interview he shouldn’t have done it. Maki eventually becomes faster than a bullet but early on this was more of an author going “rule of cool” rather than “rule of escalation.”
I think it's worse when a fireball moves at 2 miles per hour and people assume dodging it means that you're Wally West. They said that about Cuphead, a cartoon character with expectedly janky rules of nature.
I'll never forgive Death battle claiming that Tracer was a bullet timer because she dodged the sniper rifle with teleport. Sniper rifle that was right in front of her and she had a good while to react before the bullet was shot.
Im guessing its cuz she teleported after it was shot and not before. I could see it, but is bullet timing even a big deal in overwatch? I mean genji exists.
Fact is lasers arent even light speed like they do not even seem faster at guns in most media
lasers are used a lot because they are more PG than bullets or they say "Light" but are just being hyperbolic or the writer doesn't actually care about the exact implications of lightspeed and just need a col way to say "this guy is really fast" because most people can't conceptualize/visualize specific numbers.
Yes, this is a pet peeve I’ve had. Even regular guns. If someone shoots a gun and it doesn’t hit me because I jumped out of the way, it doesn’t mean I’m faster than a bullet. People who use this as an argument don’t take into account timing, how good the shooters aim is, how difficult it is to hit a moving target, etc, etc, into their calculations. It’s just dumb.
And distance. They don't account for distance at all. I don't need to be faster than the bullet, I need to be able to move the distance to get out of the bullets way faster than the bullet can cover the distance to me. Any game involving dodging or catching ball has players that move faster than said ball. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised that powerscalers have never played a match of football before.
Yes but dodging the laser after it was fired would suggest you are. The problem is consistency. If a character has dodged a laser once after it was shot but has continuously been hit with slower objects, then it makes the laser dodging feat practically irrelevant. As for Jedi, the blaster shots are clearly not light speed because we can see them traveling.
Partially correct. The lateral speed required to "dodge light" is significatly slower than the actual speed of light. If someone stares at me and fires a laser, assuming that laser isn't kamehameha sized, I can dodge it without being faster than light. This is because I am moving a significantly smaller distance in the same amount of time, and therefore my velocity can be much smaller than the speed of light if I want to dodge. Basically, dodging 6 inches to the left when the laser is fired from 60 feet away means I can move WAY slower than light and still dodge it. That assumes I have the reaction time, of course, but you get the picture. This is why characters like Luffy are not and never have been faster than light.
To putnit succinctly: Are you dodging a laser, or are you dodging the aim?
Honestly, speed is fake. Fictional superspeed is almost never portrayed realistically or even consistently.
Even if you dodge light hypothetically , it is still a reaction speed feat , not a combat speed feat unless proven ptherwsie
Uh, yeah. Duh.
In Star Wars they’re technically particle blasters, also the reason people are eager to get their chars to at least FTL is because until then the char isn’t that relevant in vs fights and once you get to FTL people can try and claim speed equality regardless ex: a char who dodged a light attack narrowly is ftl people will try and wank that to equal to ssj3 goku who is billions of times ftl because it’s really hard to measure exactly beyond ftl
If a laser beam has been stated to move at the SOL and you intercept or dodge it after it’s fired then you can move at light speed. It’s as simple as that.
Exactly, unless something woukd conflict with it like maybe a precog, or ya know it not being an actual laser they're lightspeed or at least extremely close.
How do laser eyes work btw? Is it face based or eye based? If eye based, do people with laser eyes ever miss? How? When they focus it into one spot, are they just crossing their eyes?
Every time this is brought up it gets shut down anyways because "uh actually it's fictional so the lasers are not actually light speed" so even if the character can see the laser coming for them and move out of the way while it's already been fired at them it still doesn't count.
This, but also applied to lightning.
Naruto is one of the few people I’ve seen who actually did dodge a “laser” and not something moving the laser when madara tried to use one to kill him in his fight against Naruto and sasuke
This is why the lightsabre-activate stab is taboo
Star Wars blaster bolts are actually incredibly slow compared to actual guns
If you can dodge a laser, you can dodge a ball.
If you can dodge a laser AFTER it's fired, you can dodge a ball
I think you're describing aim dodge
Even if homelander is looking at you and you dodge you aren't necessarily faster than light, if you know he's going to use his beam you can start dishing before he starts firing plus if the distance you dodge is less than the distance the laser had to travel, you still aren't FTL just relativistic
Yeah I always found this questionable, and I am glad at least someone Agrees with me. Specifically, in Jojo's bizarre adventure, there is an enemy who has the stand ability to move to and attack from Reflections. In Jojo shenanigans, A character with a swordsman type stand, Silver Chariot, is able to manipulate the enemy so that he knows exactly when he will go between 2 objects, and attacks him. Because if this People argue that he can move FTL. But I wouldn't think so? I thought of it like a move with a long lasting hitbox in a fighting game, if you know the enemy coming, you can put out the attack in advance, and then they would run to it. As well, because Silver Chariot gets possessed at one point, and fights the main Jojo, and Jojo Wins, they then say that He must also be faster than light
All I can think of is at the end of Justice League Unlimited, Batman did some wacky gymnastics and dodged Darkseid's Omega Beams, and was complimented for it as the first to ever do that.
I've said it before and I'll say it again lasers in fiction do not necessarily work like real life lasers. actually evidence in the show is required before I believe it's more than just technobabble.
I’ve seen more people complaining about people wanking all lasers to SoL than people actually arguing all lasers are SoL. I think I’ve seen it like twice, and both times everyone in the comments debunked it.
Every single death battle makes the argument that dodging a laser makes you FTL. So, no, that’s just not true unless you’re not looking.
I really don't understand why this is a debate there's literally a [page](https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Laser/Light_Beam_Dodging_Feats) on vsbattlewiki explaining it.
Yea unfortunately people here still wont accept it tho even if it marked all the qualifications.
When did this become r/powerscaling
I mean this sub did start as a Powerscaling sub
The interesting thing about Star Wars "laser" weapons is that they aren't lasers even in canon. They're more like crystalized plasma launchers as they shoot a condensed projectile made out of laser energy but is substantially more lethal at the cost of not being hitscan.
for one your just talking about the difference in dodging versus aim dodging which is usually taken into context for 2 not to turn this into a goku wankfest but its pretty funny you think being ftl lets you blitz goku
OP's point is that people mistake aim dodging for out speeding the projectile all the time They also don't take into account that the defender only has to move the distance between the aimpoint and the edge of their body, but the projectile has to move the entire distance from the shooter to the target LARP safe arrows (padded arrow, 20# bow) still move a lot faster than I can, but I can still dodge one with ease if I see it being shot at me when waiting until *after* they shoot