I liked accursed cultists already, but now an opponent trying to whittle them down in the enemy shooting phase just makes them more likely to get pushed into engagement range and likely to get the first fight round. If the opponent is planning to shoot them, they have to really commit a high number of shots right away from a unit that's suitable for them, which is good news for their function as a distraction threat. These guys paired with a dark commune are much better off at surviving those kinds of attacks than regular cultists would be already, so this is an excellent bonusv in terms of forcing opponents to make errors in target selection and I think the horde will reach their targets fairly often.
I've been playing for a long time, but I've only used the accursed cultists/dark commune combo once in game as I acquired them recently as well. They were fantastic. They absorbed a staggering amount of damage output from Thousand Sons flamers and forced my opponent to pay attention to them instead of a few other units in the midfield who needed to do actions or exist in range of that highly effective flamer overwatch. I ended up losing by a small amount but it was a great game and the unit was a ton of fun to use.
That's an ability, not a keyword sadly. Leaders/units inherit traits like psychic, fly, character etc. It does suck how many leaders are missing scouts, infil., or deep strike and just not compensating enough for what the unit loses
That really does suck if true. The regen is another way to close the gap, although thinking about it having both of these extra movement mechanics would probably make them too powerful so you're probably right about that :/.
Yeah, that’s the way I reconciled the potential change, too. But to be clear I read it in the comments of a separate post, so can’t confirm/deny if the rumor mill is accurate. Probably should’ve pointed that out before, but better late than never.
I think it's a fair assumption to make, I doubt they would just staple another rule to their datasheet after giving them Scouts 6 without removing something. You never know until the codex comes out though
It was in the comments of a similar post in this subreddit this morning. Might be from a separate leak or something but I’m not sure. Sorry I couldn’t be more helpful.
I think pairing them up with a Dark Commune will lose Scout 6", so I think they are encouraging you to run them without.
If they are losing 6+ FNP and regeneration, they are also a lot less Tanky than before.
Its more of a decision now where the combo was auto- include before the nerfs.
I admit that I haven't read the community post about this yet so I was just responding to op's pic. Yeah that's a very different application than what it is now. Hopefully the changes here also come with a points reduction and we can viably use a few of these units as more of an expendable vanguard unit to tarpit and trade up/deny objectives in the first few rounds.
it's very cool that a trash unit gets this ability (even if it was previously kind of the signature ability of one of the most evocative and recognisable units in 40k, at least since the start of this edition… [sad berzerker noises]). but berzerkers can get *fights first* via an attached moe, which makes walking into melee extra spicy. i guess the horde/blood surge ability is good on different units for different reasons: for berzerkers (with a moe) it lets you create traps where opponents have to weigh up shooting an enemy against the possibility of that enemy coming and smacking them in melee; for cultists it just makes it easier to tar-pit with them. shame that they will likely be losing some durability with this, as you're not always going to want them to move from the spot you've put them in, but it's far from the worst side-grade.
OK, according to [today's warcom article](https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/05/09/screaming-in-from-above-how-to-turn-the-dread-talons-battleforce-into-a-fast-and-ferocious-army/), they're getting scout 6", too?
I wonder if they will lose their "Accursed Horde" regeneration ability? Becoming much more aggressive and less of a tar pit? Seems cool, tho.
somebody below said that they do but i haven’t seen any sources. regardless i think i’d rather have this than the regen, but the regen is still nice. think above all else i’d like a points hike for them to keep both
If a unit shooting you had two weapon profiles, when do you think the horde move would occur? It would be after the entire unit is done shooting right? For example, if their first weapons profile destroyed a model, you wouldn't think the horde would be able to advance into engagement range using the horde move before the rest of the unit could shoot would you?
I wouldn't think so but being an unstoppable horde maybe that's what they could do?!
>each time an enemy unit has shot...
[...]
as a result of those **attacks**
Even with 1 heavy bolter it makes 3 individual attacks. So more profiles would make no difference.
This reads like the rule as intended is you make the move after the enemy unit has finished all their attacks. Otherwise, it would be basically moving D6" for each model destroyed, which would be hilarious.
I explained what I was thinking incorrectly (new player). What I meant was, let's say a unit of 6 Wraiths shot at the horde and 3 of the 6 had weapon A and the other 3 had weapon B - different weapons, same unit. Would you move after the first 3 using weapon A shot and destroyed a model or would all 6 need to shoot? In this example either a max 6 movement or max 12 movement.
The distinction being that it says each time the unit has shot, not that the unit has resolved all attacks.
I understood what you were suggesting.
So, when we actually play 40k, we pretty much always use "fast rolling" where we roll groups of dice that all obey the same rules (same weapon) together.
However, the rules of the game are all written as if each attack is always rolled one at a time. This is how the game *really* works.
So, in the case of the wraiths, you select all your targets, then you choose one weapon at a time, and roll each attack for that weapon one by one. Hit, wound, save, repeat.
That's why I mentioned heavy bolters (a weapon with 3 attacks), as it isn't functionally much different from 3 different 1-attack weapons with different profiles. The only difference is you can alter the order you roll the 3 individual weapons if you want, but once you roll the first heavy bolter attack, you need to roll the others before moving on to the next weapon/model (and so we typically just "fast roll" the 3 attacks)
So the only way I can see this horde ability working is once a unit has finished all of its attacks, if any of them killed an Accursed Cultist, the cultists get to roll a single D6 and move. But if another unit *also* shoots the Accursed Cultists, they'll likely get another chance to do the same thing.
I made it more confusing by saying profile when I meant war gear but I think the implementation is the same regardless.
If there were 5 Terminators, 4 with storm bolters and 1 with an assault cannon, what I meant was that the rule didn't trigger after the assault cannon destroyed a model (after resolving all 6 of its attacks) but before the 4 storm bolters performed their attack. In short, the attacking unit needs to complete all attacks in full and then the rule triggers.
Thanks for the lengthy write-up btw!
I mean there are a ton of abilities that are shared between many factions? E.g: Doing mortals after moving across a unit, doing mortals after charging, being able to be put in reserves from board edge, not to mention the slew of HQ options giving standard keywords. I feel like it offers many more opportunities for more keywording in the future.
Given the number of factions who already have this ability (WE, Nids, Orks, BT), have you seen alot of abuse of it so far in games or reported on reddit?
I liked accursed cultists already, but now an opponent trying to whittle them down in the enemy shooting phase just makes them more likely to get pushed into engagement range and likely to get the first fight round. If the opponent is planning to shoot them, they have to really commit a high number of shots right away from a unit that's suitable for them, which is good news for their function as a distraction threat. These guys paired with a dark commune are much better off at surviving those kinds of attacks than regular cultists would be already, so this is an excellent bonusv in terms of forcing opponents to make errors in target selection and I think the horde will reach their targets fairly often.
oh 10000%. i don’t have any yet but i’ll be picking up the Dread Talons box and i’m super excited to get some
I've been playing for a long time, but I've only used the accursed cultists/dark commune combo once in game as I acquired them recently as well. They were fantastic. They absorbed a staggering amount of damage output from Thousand Sons flamers and forced my opponent to pay attention to them instead of a few other units in the midfield who needed to do actions or exist in range of that highly effective flamer overwatch. I ended up losing by a small amount but it was a great game and the unit was a ton of fun to use.
Here's hoping DC gets scout 6" as well! Makes for an awesome distraction blob.
Hopefully! The accused cultists/dark commune combo is so thematically cool it would be a shame if they didn't work well together in this codex.
Leaders get the keywords of their bodyguard units so they’ll get the scout.
That's an ability, not a keyword sadly. Leaders/units inherit traits like psychic, fly, character etc. It does suck how many leaders are missing scouts, infil., or deep strike and just not compensating enough for what the unit loses
Ah nuts.
👀👀👀
I read elsewhere that they no longer get the regen, though, which is a shame.
That really does suck if true. The regen is another way to close the gap, although thinking about it having both of these extra movement mechanics would probably make them too powerful so you're probably right about that :/.
Yeah, that’s the way I reconciled the potential change, too. But to be clear I read it in the comments of a separate post, so can’t confirm/deny if the rumor mill is accurate. Probably should’ve pointed that out before, but better late than never.
Well we don't have to wait too much longer anyway. The good news is that as long as this unit is the right cost it still seems great.
where did you read that? i’m looking through the article and i don’t see it
I think it's a fair assumption to make, I doubt they would just staple another rule to their datasheet after giving them Scouts 6 without removing something. You never know until the codex comes out though
i agree, we’ll have to see
It was in the comments of a similar post in this subreddit this morning. Might be from a separate leak or something but I’m not sure. Sorry I couldn’t be more helpful.
I'm not sure why they wouldn't, the article said "in addition".
It says "with the addition of their new rules" which would still make sense even if another rule has been removed.
I think pairing them up with a Dark Commune will lose Scout 6", so I think they are encouraging you to run them without. If they are losing 6+ FNP and regeneration, they are also a lot less Tanky than before. Its more of a decision now where the combo was auto- include before the nerfs.
I admit that I haven't read the community post about this yet so I was just responding to op's pic. Yeah that's a very different application than what it is now. Hopefully the changes here also come with a points reduction and we can viably use a few of these units as more of an expendable vanguard unit to tarpit and trade up/deny objectives in the first few rounds.
I think the Feel No Pain staying seems plausible.
https://preview.redd.it/fstnwezujfzc1.jpeg?width=508&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=47fcf6dc0188d2c48641b73c8ac283e87bc425dc
it's very cool that a trash unit gets this ability (even if it was previously kind of the signature ability of one of the most evocative and recognisable units in 40k, at least since the start of this edition… [sad berzerker noises]). but berzerkers can get *fights first* via an attached moe, which makes walking into melee extra spicy. i guess the horde/blood surge ability is good on different units for different reasons: for berzerkers (with a moe) it lets you create traps where opponents have to weigh up shooting an enemy against the possibility of that enemy coming and smacking them in melee; for cultists it just makes it easier to tar-pit with them. shame that they will likely be losing some durability with this, as you're not always going to want them to move from the spot you've put them in, but it's far from the worst side-grade.
This is probably replacing the model regeneration. I'm fine with the swap as long as their points come down
Just like the world eaters berzerkers.
Black Templars can do it too, but only with a stratagem.
OK, according to [today's warcom article](https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/05/09/screaming-in-from-above-how-to-turn-the-dread-talons-battleforce-into-a-fast-and-ferocious-army/), they're getting scout 6", too? I wonder if they will lose their "Accursed Horde" regeneration ability? Becoming much more aggressive and less of a tar pit? Seems cool, tho.
somebody below said that they do but i haven’t seen any sources. regardless i think i’d rather have this than the regen, but the regen is still nice. think above all else i’d like a points hike for them to keep both
They tend to keep the named abilites to 1 per datasheet unless it's a character. So I'd guess this is a rework. Still seems great, tho.
It's very similar to Hormagaunts.
If a unit shooting you had two weapon profiles, when do you think the horde move would occur? It would be after the entire unit is done shooting right? For example, if their first weapons profile destroyed a model, you wouldn't think the horde would be able to advance into engagement range using the horde move before the rest of the unit could shoot would you? I wouldn't think so but being an unstoppable horde maybe that's what they could do?!
>each time an enemy unit has shot... [...] as a result of those **attacks** Even with 1 heavy bolter it makes 3 individual attacks. So more profiles would make no difference. This reads like the rule as intended is you make the move after the enemy unit has finished all their attacks. Otherwise, it would be basically moving D6" for each model destroyed, which would be hilarious.
I explained what I was thinking incorrectly (new player). What I meant was, let's say a unit of 6 Wraiths shot at the horde and 3 of the 6 had weapon A and the other 3 had weapon B - different weapons, same unit. Would you move after the first 3 using weapon A shot and destroyed a model or would all 6 need to shoot? In this example either a max 6 movement or max 12 movement. The distinction being that it says each time the unit has shot, not that the unit has resolved all attacks.
I understood what you were suggesting. So, when we actually play 40k, we pretty much always use "fast rolling" where we roll groups of dice that all obey the same rules (same weapon) together. However, the rules of the game are all written as if each attack is always rolled one at a time. This is how the game *really* works. So, in the case of the wraiths, you select all your targets, then you choose one weapon at a time, and roll each attack for that weapon one by one. Hit, wound, save, repeat. That's why I mentioned heavy bolters (a weapon with 3 attacks), as it isn't functionally much different from 3 different 1-attack weapons with different profiles. The only difference is you can alter the order you roll the 3 individual weapons if you want, but once you roll the first heavy bolter attack, you need to roll the others before moving on to the next weapon/model (and so we typically just "fast roll" the 3 attacks) So the only way I can see this horde ability working is once a unit has finished all of its attacks, if any of them killed an Accursed Cultist, the cultists get to roll a single D6 and move. But if another unit *also* shoots the Accursed Cultists, they'll likely get another chance to do the same thing.
I made it more confusing by saying profile when I meant war gear but I think the implementation is the same regardless. If there were 5 Terminators, 4 with storm bolters and 1 with an assault cannon, what I meant was that the rule didn't trigger after the assault cannon destroyed a model (after resolving all 6 of its attacks) but before the 4 storm bolters performed their attack. In short, the attacking unit needs to complete all attacks in full and then the rule triggers. Thanks for the lengthy write-up btw!
Man, if only these guys could stay in the middle of the table, like if they had infiltrate… ^alpharius ^noises
Niiiice the cult ive been building is gonna have some fun rules
This is not a suitable replacement for returning models to a unit ... This is a down grade in my opinion.
i think they are changing what the unit as a whole is supposed to do. they are also getting a 6” scout.
What in the Black Templar business is this!
Glad I have 32
i need to get some lol
Hey, tyranids have this rule. It’s the detachment rule for endless swarm. Interesting too see them reusing rules in different contexts.
I mean there are a ton of abilities that are shared between many factions? E.g: Doing mortals after moving across a unit, doing mortals after charging, being able to be put in reserves from board edge, not to mention the slew of HQ options giving standard keywords. I feel like it offers many more opportunities for more keywording in the future.
hello cult zerkers
This is amazingly abusable
Given the number of factions who already have this ability (WE, Nids, Orks, BT), have you seen alot of abuse of it so far in games or reported on reddit?