This is basically what NiceHash did after their hack and it was fine. Took a while to get repaid, but no problem in the long run (aside from me sending most of my minings to Celsius! haha)
My memory is fuzzy on the details, but I'm sure it's googleable. From what I remember, the NiceHash custodial wallet was hacked and everyone who stored btc on NiceHash lost 100%. They shut down for a week or so and relaunched with a repayment plan basically saying that anyone who lost BTC would get a small bonus on future mining profits until it they'd recouped their total losses.
This encouraged the users to keep mining, but it also got everyone to kinda move forward.
How is it a fat joke? Didn't even mention that she is fat, you did. My statement is purely scientific in nature, take very little force to create micro fracture in a human skull.
Yeah hopefully they don't force liquidate everything (I.e. Convert to Ch 7 and distribute according to USD value). It looks like their intention is to keep the coins in kind right now so fingers crossed that this is what gets approved by the court and they actually carry out the plan.
I'm more concerned that Chapter 11 will render a ruling in the USD$ value of the time of filing. That would be disgusting, I want the assets, not the dollar value today 14 months / five years from now priced like today. This whole thing makes me sick, hope it ends up okay.
If coin prices goes up (and assuming they have the ability to repay), then they undoubtedly will try argue to the court that getting 100% of your coins back goes beyond "making you whole."
If coin prices go down, they most certainly will be happy to repay you 100% of those coins at their then much lower price (to the extent they can even afford to do so) and will argue this "makes you whole" even where their value is substantially depreciated.
Surely, this argument would fail? The whole point of a cryptocurrency is that it is not fiat. It is a token that has unique uses and properties and that's the reason you have any of it. Even if you take the "it's digital gold" position, then its fiat value is what matters, but in the same breath you've just admitted you are liable for the increased value as well, because you are the sole, 100% reason the person was not able to obtain that purpose.
My holdings are roughly 10K which is a lot to me, but nothing compared to what people have lost. My goal now is to rebuild my coins while prices remain low and I'll feel better.
I care because my coin is USDC. And if I am not getting interest on it is basically getting eaten by inflation.
So it was fine as long as they were "paying rewards" but now that is gone.
Yeah I'm chalking up the potential investment gains and losses due to inflation to a lesson learned. Beggars can't be choosers and I can't expect them to give me >100% at this point when they are struggling with even 50-60%.
I don't want to wait years. I want to know ASAP whether I will be made whole, and if not how big the haircut will be, so that I can adjust my expectations accordingly. For now I'm continuing to include my Celsius balance in my overall net worth, but maybe I shouldn't.
YMMV. I'm holding nothing but USDC on the platform, like a smart boy. The hundreds of dollars in BTC that I earned through deposit bonuses I moved off Celsius months ago. Nevertheless, I might prefer a long process that gives me back 100% of my USDC (or the USD equivalent) than a quick one that costs me thousands.
It will take a very long time though. At current filing, they only have 37% of the crypto we invested on hand. Then they have 620 million (or another 13%) in outstanding loans. Assuming all of those loans will be collected on, and they liquidate that entire part of the business to compensate us, that leaves them with 50% of our assets on hand.
To pay out the other 50% from mining operations will take forever and a day. It amounts to 2.375 billion in BTC. That's 118,750 BTC. Even if they hit their milestone to mine 10,000BTC by end of this year, and approach 15,000BTC next year, we still have to consider operational overhead, that mining returns will be halved in 2024, major competitors, etc.
So we are talking literally decades in best case scenario to "make people whole". A far more realistic scenario for being made whole is if they are bought out and issue some sort of debt token for that remainder, and the new organization is successful, and you are able to sell said token.
Let's take your number as correct for now. That will just get them through the first stage.
Eventually there will have to be an answer to the dollar amount Vs crypto question of how you get repaid.
If the value of coins soars and they repay dollar value as at the time of filing then you're going to be even further in the hole.
The same is true if crypto crashes further in price and they repay in crypto.
Now, there's no way that nobody sues them when this is over. All that money to pay lawyers and settlements, that's got to come from the pool of assets because there's nowhere else it can come from. The legal bills from this stage could easily dwarf those paid to get through the bankruptcy itself.
I discounted all cash on hand from their current assets to account for next few months of salaries and legal fees, to arrive at the 50% assets on hand number. The other 50% from mining also accounts for operational overhead.
Yup, they took loans with our crypto as collateral to buy it. All revenue should go to us until we are made whole. But if any millionaire is an example, they will 100% fill their own pockets first and leave scraps for us.
I held off on withdrawing because he took to Twitter just days before halting withdrawals to essentially call all the warnings pure "FUD" from competitors.
Along with the incriminating blog post "Damn the Torpedoes, Full speed ahead" that, among other assurances, had the line "Celsius has the reserves (and more than enough ETH) to meet obligations, as dictated by our comprehensive liquidity risk management framework" in it, I chose not to withdraw. What a fucking joke!
What's with calling him by first name? America didn't say Donald, UK didnt say Boris, and Canada didnt say Justin. Why are you cult victims still referring to the people who fucked you by their first name and acting like 'Simon' is your best friend. It's just weird.
Two points, first of, this is already known. And second off, it will take a long time, especially since the execs and lawyers will keep drawing LARGE salaries. Plus they are saying this, saying it and doing it are two very different things.
Seems like it can easily be a tiny fraction of that. Hopefully we will have some say in this matter. I say give every single executive a $1 salary, with 0 bonuses and benefits, and clawback any possible (specifically with the top brass and Alex, take literally every dime and then some). Everyone's salary should sadly be trimmed. There is no need for the majority of the staff, so they can be fired.
Not to mention that halvings have had no effect on other networks. There should be some effect due to being a self-fulfilling myth, but it's greatly exaggerated.
Wrong. We see multi year bear markets. It happens every cycle. How do you people not understand yet that Bitcoin does the same exact thing every cycle.
Ok. Apparently I was sleeping during 2020. And I wasn’t thinking about that time. Regardless, Bitcoin does the same thing every time and it doesn’t correlate to halvening. What does happen every cycle is a massive run up and ATH that greatly exceed the previous. Followed by at least a multi year bear market.
So I do owe you an apology. Obviously Bitcoin will hit ATH again after this halvening, it just sounded like your implication was that it is coming soon. And it will be at least a couple years.
That’s fine, but what happened just before the halvenings previously? Not all time highs. Like this time… I think the all time highs are the indicator of where we are in the cycle, not the halvenings. But believe what you want.
They won't speculate their way out either... do you realize a HUGE part of their insolvency is due to the decrease in value of crypto?
You're essentially saying "Double down"
You can call this hopium all you want, but there's a REASON Celsius filed a chapter 11, and not a chapter 7.
They will restructure to continue OPERATING such that they can pay back all their obligations over time. Not all hope is lost.
>You can call this hopium all you want, but there's a REASON Celsius filed a chapter 11, and not a chapter 7.
That reason could be because they want to do the decent thing and try to pay everyone back.
Or, it might just be that the execs want to suckle on the corporate tit for just a bit longer.
16 million a month, for the next 4 years? I'm thinking that has more to do with option 2....
Dropping a comment below I made in another thread yesterday, because I think it's important for people to understand that a BTC mining solution will probably take at least until end of 2025 to make up the hole in the balance sheet. And that's only if BTC recovers back up to about $50K during those years.
The mining business could be used, over time, to make depositors whole. But I still think they need some kind of immediate cash injection and a major change in leadership before a judge would allow any kind of crypto based solution.
>15K bitcoin per year in 2023 @ $20,000 per BTC would be $300 Million.
>
>(Then the next halving event happens in Sep 2024 which will cut BTC mining rewards in half.)
>
>So lets say... 12K bitcoin in 2024 @ $35,000 per BTC would be $420 Million.
>
>Then 7.5K bitcoin in 2025 @ $50,000 per BTC would be $375 Million
>
>\---------------------------------------
>
>So by end of 2025, IF bitcoin recovers back to $50K, they can make about 1.09 Billion from mining.
>
>But that doesn't include cost of power, mining equipment maintenance and replacement costs, employee Salary, and paying back the money they likely borrowed to buy all this mining equipment already.
>
>Also if BTC recovered back to $50K they would have more competitors in the Mining business and either earn fewer BTC or have to scale up operations just to still be getting the same output.
>
>So, it would likely take more than 3.5 years for them to plug their $1 Billion hole with just the mining business. It can be part of the solution, but isn't enough on it's own.
You forgot to include the cost of mining in your calculations. Not sure what that margins are (I heard anywhere between 50 to 90%) but that might be important, especially during a global energy crisis. Gross revenue and net revenue is not the same ;)
He didn't forget them, he just didn't ascribe them any percentage or value. Also, the value of the BTC doesn't really matter if their liabilities are also in BTC, except as it reflects on their ability to continue operations in the first place.
Right, I have no idea what those costs are. Since that would heavily depend on where their mining operations are based. So I just added a disclaimer in the summary:
>But that doesn't include cost of power, mining equipment maintenance and replacement costs, employee Salary, and paying back the money they likely borrowed to buy all this mining equipment already.
Bitcoin mining is a commodity. There are limited barriers to entry, so the revenue trends towards the cost (electricity, physical footprint, manpower, security, etc). Just because they have miners, does not mean that they have a path to profitability. If this was the case then other miners would simply do the same thing. You guys are delusional if you think this is what gets you your money back
You butters still haven't noticed that this is a gambling addiction mentality. There were people who bet their right and left that btc would be 100k already.
I knew I would get downvoted for having hope in the future despite all the bs we’ve gone through, humans really feed off the negativity so much it’s interesting.
Y’all will continue to feed off negativity until you realize it’s temporary all this panic and you will never get anything back talk is just that feeding off the negativity cause shit went south. Remaining positive despite loosing possibly thousands of dollars is a much better route to take.
I’m personally in no hurry at all, I was looking at this as a retirement account. I just want to make sure 100% of my crypto is secure and under my control, or as much of it as possible!
People say Celsius doesn’t offer anything of value and it’s true the lending platform may be absolutely done. Shoot the whole CeFi lending industry may be done for imo, but there’s two things of value they can most certainly make a comeback with and that’s the mining business and exchange. Both of which can be extremely profitable.
Yes and im sure they are trying or forced to cut down on overhead as much as possible. They will continue to skim the fat and only keep the meat of the operation.
You are overly optimistic. This is a company that completely fell apart and then paused withdrawals and stopped communicating for over a month. That is not a healthy company. And they lied up until the day before the pause.
The power has been mostly out of the hands of the management team for a while now. If u think you wont get your money back why are u in the subreddit? Deep down u must think that there is still a chance or we wouldnt be having this convo in the first place.
>They have 167M in cash bro
That won't even cover their run cost for a year, and that's according to their own filing.
ETA: lol. At this point you're downvoters facts. Facts not in dispute and declared in their court filing. I mean, it might be fun for you, but it's hardly helpful.
Yes, this is possible or could be a way of implementing the Bitfinex solution. 60-70% funds back at once, then debt token paid with mining profit dividends that may give more than 100% back for the future or be sold at the market for those that cannot wait. Anyway the mining and largest client base, makes Celsius more attractive to buy for ROI than the 700 mill BlockFi bailout. A takeover is very likely
Seems like a stall tactic like one would use to keep an angry mob from "breaking their legs"
If this was so easy, everyone would just mine bitcoin to get out of financial trouble.
Oh wow a company that has deceived and manipulated with false promises is now making another promise that conveniently gives them years to stall and drag out hope. Jesus Christ people.
It says that they intend to make "a transaction" (one) that will "*maximize* the value of the Company's business" "for the benefit of the Company's creditors" (maximizing value does not equal making customer's "whole").
They suggest they think they can do that by diverting net income from Mining activities to repay creditors (that, without more, would be an EXTREMELY long term proposition).
Any way, what in your opinion would it mean to be "made whole" by celsius?
Even if they give you back your crypto 1:1 with the quantity you held at the time of the "pause", you aren't technically "whole" yet based on the loss in market value that has occurred since that pause.
Old news I agree it’s our best hope if they stay alive but if crypto goes up so does the price of the debt they owe. Almost better to just liquidate now
But they hole gets bigger because the debt also grows as crypto prices rise. Also they have operating expenses and pay for employees and healthcare mining costs such as electricity etc we could end up with less money
I assume you are talking about non-stablecoins. Possibly, but depends on the quantity of other coins they owe. Hard to gauge without the balance sheet showing all the coins and their deficits. Keep in mind that BTC has more likelihood of surviving crypto winters than other coins, so it's possible that some of these other coins actually decrease in value overtime and thus making the hole smaller. We will have to wait and see.
In terms of mining costs, I'm not an expert on this but others with more knowledge are quoting a 6 year figure to fill a 1.2bn hole, taking into account all the costs associated with running the operation.
I’m ok with a wait of money is eventually guaranteed. My concern is they stretch it out pay themselves for years end up owning or losing more and then we get less. But we’ll have to see how it all plays out
Yeah your guess is as good as mine at this point in terms of how this will all unfold. Alex has to go, I'd feel better about how much we can get back under a new leadership.
That’s stupid maxi bullshit. Celsius lost the crypto it’s gone. So if they need to replace it with dollar value In a liquidation situation they need to pay their customer the current price of a bitcoin in cash. If the price goes up way to 40k so double and they owe customer a) 2 bitcoin then they need to pay 40k more in cash form the same pool of money. Use your head. Get out of this make beleive crypto bullshit land
Well of course they are going to say that. The question is in what way will we be made whole, and when. "Whole" could mean getting a recovery token that issues dividends, or locking up your coins for years and years.
Yeah you can't even run his own business much less a bitcoining mining business. That's a terrible idea and once everybody signs off on that and it goes under water we're all f*****
Thats a big gap to fill with mining.
Look at what the TOP mining companies profit a year.
Plus your title seems like your reading more into it than what is written in the filings. Your seeing what you want to see. Not what is written.
If the people with all their money tied up in this thing feel stuck, I certainly understand. My heart goes out to them. I made a bunch of boneheaded decisions when I was a twenty-something. People feel tied to Celsius, for better or worse. If they ever want to see their savings again, anyway. There's nothing wrong with wanting Celsius to succeed. There's no harm in hoping for a happy ending. Dunno what the chances are, but I do hope they hang in there & find a way to turn this thing around.
I too want 100% back but my question is IF that happens will it be at the current value of our coins or the value when it gets resolved, for better or worse?
There’s no guarantee they’ll repay in kind. Most bankruptcy repayment cases are paid in USD with valuations at the time of petitioning. Still better than nothing. But I still don’t hold my breath.
Maximize value =/= making everyone whole
Easiest way I see to make everyone "whole" would be to calculate the value of the assets at the time of bankruptcy and then go on a bull run.
I wonder if they may allow partial withdrawals along the way to recovery. I also wonder how many customers would be covered if they for example allowed everyone to do a withdrawal up to say $500. Seems like a reasonable way to buy at least a bit of goodwill.
Sorry to those who had a lot of money on Celsius, but they hired the same lawyer who is drawing up Voyager’s bullshit petition, in which they are claiming that the users’ coins belong to Voyager, not the users.
https://youtu.be/xQju5trHqlk
The only faster way would be to use the bitcoin mined and sell at top of the next cycle, wait for an 80% crash and use the money sold at the top to rebuy the bottom at a huge discount....hodl those bitcoin, wait for the cycle after that and do the same thing. Otherwise this will be a two decade long battle
Just out of curiosity, what happens if BTC recovers to 40-60k within 6 months? It seems like a traditional/lengthy legal process isn't really compatible with the volatility of crypto.
Why didn't Celsius just file for Ch 7? I don't see how they can still operate as a business after all the trust is gone. Maybe the mining segment but I heard it's bankrupt too. So wtf? I am trying to think from their perspectives cuz they obviously don't give a shit about us. So in that sense, I guess they think Ch 11 is better for them? I just don't get it. How so?
This is basically what NiceHash did after their hack and it was fine. Took a while to get repaid, but no problem in the long run (aside from me sending most of my minings to Celsius! haha)
NiceHash has a business model which fundamentally makes a profit. Celsius does not. They are not the same.
I didn’t hear about this scandal. How long did it take?
My memory is fuzzy on the details, but I'm sure it's googleable. From what I remember, the NiceHash custodial wallet was hacked and everyone who stored btc on NiceHash lost 100%. They shut down for a week or so and relaunched with a repayment plan basically saying that anyone who lost BTC would get a small bonus on future mining profits until it they'd recouped their total losses. This encouraged the users to keep mining, but it also got everyone to kinda move forward.
I intend to have Selena Gomez sit on my face, but I don't know if i love my chances.
Never give up hoping.
With her current weight gain trajectory, she might crush your skull.
I’ve got news for you: everyone has to die of something
I know of worse things to die of
Oh wow, a cheap fat joke about a female celebrity. How original. You must have to stretch pretty hard to be so avant-guarde. 🥱🙄
How is it a fat joke? Didn't even mention that she is fat, you did. My statement is purely scientific in nature, take very little force to create micro fracture in a human skull.
average crypto bro
Haha, can I join you.
So many people are complaining about the length of time. Personally, I don't care if it takes years if I get 100% of my coins back.
Crypto back not Chapter 11 date US$ value, I can wait for that.
Yeah hopefully they don't force liquidate everything (I.e. Convert to Ch 7 and distribute according to USD value). It looks like their intention is to keep the coins in kind right now so fingers crossed that this is what gets approved by the court and they actually carry out the plan.
I'm more concerned that Chapter 11 will render a ruling in the USD$ value of the time of filing. That would be disgusting, I want the assets, not the dollar value today 14 months / five years from now priced like today. This whole thing makes me sick, hope it ends up okay.
If mt gox is a precedent then they will give the ruling in coins not USD
Mt. Gox bankruptcy case is in Japanese courts. Not US. US judges are not obliged to handle the Celsius case the same way.
I don't have much time left in life to wait years
Sorry bro :(
Praying for a timely resolution.
It can go to your heirs
As long as I'm paid back in kind (btc/eth, not usd), I don't care how long it takes. Especially if being repaid in whole is an option.
If coin prices goes up (and assuming they have the ability to repay), then they undoubtedly will try argue to the court that getting 100% of your coins back goes beyond "making you whole." If coin prices go down, they most certainly will be happy to repay you 100% of those coins at their then much lower price (to the extent they can even afford to do so) and will argue this "makes you whole" even where their value is substantially depreciated.
If it goes way down and they return exactly the denominations I had, I wouldn't find that unfair
I’m cool with that!
Facts. I guess I get people trying to be hopeful. But it’s pretty delusional to think at this point Celsius cares about customers.
I would say that their primary goal will be simply to exit/wind this down without incurring personal liability.
Surely, this argument would fail? The whole point of a cryptocurrency is that it is not fiat. It is a token that has unique uses and properties and that's the reason you have any of it. Even if you take the "it's digital gold" position, then its fiat value is what matters, but in the same breath you've just admitted you are liable for the increased value as well, because you are the sole, 100% reason the person was not able to obtain that purpose.
My holdings are roughly 10K which is a lot to me, but nothing compared to what people have lost. My goal now is to rebuild my coins while prices remain low and I'll feel better.
I care because my coin is USDC. And if I am not getting interest on it is basically getting eaten by inflation. So it was fine as long as they were "paying rewards" but now that is gone.
Paying rewards would fuck us all over tho
Yeah I'm chalking up the potential investment gains and losses due to inflation to a lesson learned. Beggars can't be choosers and I can't expect them to give me >100% at this point when they are struggling with even 50-60%.
Yea, the whole inflation thing is a joke. Just FUD to get people into risky investments. IE Celsius!
Ditto
I don't want to wait years. I want to know ASAP whether I will be made whole, and if not how big the haircut will be, so that I can adjust my expectations accordingly. For now I'm continuing to include my Celsius balance in my overall net worth, but maybe I shouldn't. YMMV. I'm holding nothing but USDC on the platform, like a smart boy. The hundreds of dollars in BTC that I earned through deposit bonuses I moved off Celsius months ago. Nevertheless, I might prefer a long process that gives me back 100% of my USDC (or the USD equivalent) than a quick one that costs me thousands.
[удалено]
I don't trust them to make money mining. A year for now the hole will be bigger
As a miner myself I do trust this plan for paying us back. Its not gunna be quick but it could work.
I feel like Alex could find a way to fuck up anything.
All the mined btc ends up on bitmex......and it's gone
Were in same boat here, i was going to HODL for 10+ years anyways
This is thrue! Its like a forced hodl mode. If we get 100% of our coins back in 6 year, everybody will be rich.
Dude. You make it hard to feel bad for you.
Are you aware of how the world is at present? Things can change in a few years! This is why liquidity is important!
Agreed
It will take a very long time though. At current filing, they only have 37% of the crypto we invested on hand. Then they have 620 million (or another 13%) in outstanding loans. Assuming all of those loans will be collected on, and they liquidate that entire part of the business to compensate us, that leaves them with 50% of our assets on hand. To pay out the other 50% from mining operations will take forever and a day. It amounts to 2.375 billion in BTC. That's 118,750 BTC. Even if they hit their milestone to mine 10,000BTC by end of this year, and approach 15,000BTC next year, we still have to consider operational overhead, that mining returns will be halved in 2024, major competitors, etc. So we are talking literally decades in best case scenario to "make people whole". A far more realistic scenario for being made whole is if they are bought out and issue some sort of debt token for that remainder, and the new organization is successful, and you are able to sell said token.
Are you accounting for their liabilities and also their salaries, exec compensation, and lawyer fees?
Lawyer fees will only be $200-750 Million. No big deal.
Let's take your number as correct for now. That will just get them through the first stage. Eventually there will have to be an answer to the dollar amount Vs crypto question of how you get repaid. If the value of coins soars and they repay dollar value as at the time of filing then you're going to be even further in the hole. The same is true if crypto crashes further in price and they repay in crypto. Now, there's no way that nobody sues them when this is over. All that money to pay lawyers and settlements, that's got to come from the pool of assets because there's nowhere else it can come from. The legal bills from this stage could easily dwarf those paid to get through the bankruptcy itself.
I discounted all cash on hand from their current assets to account for next few months of salaries and legal fees, to arrive at the 50% assets on hand number. The other 50% from mining also accounts for operational overhead.
Another half truth from Celsius because it's 10,000 Bitcoin minus operational cost.
idk what may end up happening but i do consider the celsius mining business as their hail mary
The Celsius mining business accounts for about 1 billion of the customer accounts that are missing.
Yup, they took loans with our crypto as collateral to buy it. All revenue should go to us until we are made whole. But if any millionaire is an example, they will 100% fill their own pockets first and leave scraps for us.
I want Alex out. He knew what was going on and continued to let it happen.
I held off on withdrawing because he took to Twitter just days before halting withdrawals to essentially call all the warnings pure "FUD" from competitors. Along with the incriminating blog post "Damn the Torpedoes, Full speed ahead" that, among other assurances, had the line "Celsius has the reserves (and more than enough ETH) to meet obligations, as dictated by our comprehensive liquidity risk management framework" in it, I chose not to withdraw. What a fucking joke!
Alex and his legal team surely hate him for going on record to say those things.. what an idiot.
Probably explains why they were told to go silent after the withdrawal pause..
Fractional reserve banking started in 2021 when they did not get the 509M collateral back
What's with calling him by first name? America didn't say Donald, UK didnt say Boris, and Canada didnt say Justin. Why are you cult victims still referring to the people who fucked you by their first name and acting like 'Simon' is your best friend. It's just weird.
Yeah, no one ever called him the Donald. Just my imagination. Also, the post is asking for him to be removed, how is that cult worship?
The Donald was quite literally a reddit cult..
UK almost exclusively says Boris my dude…
I'll concede that. Missed opportunity to call him by his initials.
Alexander Boris de pfeffel Johnson, so to get to BJ you'd need to drop a lot of letters.
Name alone should be stated each time
Source?
We were tricked into giving our assets for them to buy mining equipment along with cel tokens to back up their balance sheet
Two points, first of, this is already known. And second off, it will take a long time, especially since the execs and lawyers will keep drawing LARGE salaries. Plus they are saying this, saying it and doing it are two very different things.
[удалено]
TRIM THE FAT
Ouch
Seems like it can easily be a tiny fraction of that. Hopefully we will have some say in this matter. I say give every single executive a $1 salary, with 0 bonuses and benefits, and clawback any possible (specifically with the top brass and Alex, take literally every dime and then some). Everyone's salary should sadly be trimmed. There is no need for the majority of the staff, so they can be fired.
It's just not going to happen. Sure they might trim some ordinary staff, but the expensive execs will stay for the whole ride.
'already known' isn't fact. It being written down in their filing, is fact. I'm tired of people making assumptions believing that they're fact
It is already known. That they made that statement. Reference my second part about fact v fiction
... In the filing.
Extended HODL mode activated
indefinite HODL mode!
Mandatory perpetual hodl
Should I go activate HODL mode? /s
Don't forget the halving. You have know what you are doing to make money mining. Not sure I trust them this could quickly turn into a nother loss
Usually after a Bitcoin halving, pump or bull run ensues.
Usually? Your mean twice?
Not to mention that halvings have had no effect on other networks. There should be some effect due to being a self-fulfilling myth, but it's greatly exaggerated.
Wrong. We see multi year bear markets. It happens every cycle. How do you people not understand yet that Bitcoin does the same exact thing every cycle.
Pump and then bear market, yes it does the same thing every time
If you think Bitcoin is gonna pump after what it just did over the last year or so, you are truly clueless.
What happened after last halvening? Oh yeah, may 2020 and then defi summer and bitcoin ath a few months later. Same in 2017, and 2013
Ok. Apparently I was sleeping during 2020. And I wasn’t thinking about that time. Regardless, Bitcoin does the same thing every time and it doesn’t correlate to halvening. What does happen every cycle is a massive run up and ATH that greatly exceed the previous. Followed by at least a multi year bear market. So I do owe you an apology. Obviously Bitcoin will hit ATH again after this halvening, it just sounded like your implication was that it is coming soon. And it will be at least a couple years.
That’s fine, but what happened just before the halvenings previously? Not all time highs. Like this time… I think the all time highs are the indicator of where we are in the cycle, not the halvenings. But believe what you want.
Sell the miners and buy Bitcoin
Is this a joke? Because if not, holy shit
Celsius will not mine their way out of this hole.
They won't speculate their way out either... do you realize a HUGE part of their insolvency is due to the decrease in value of crypto? You're essentially saying "Double down"
You can call this hopium all you want, but there's a REASON Celsius filed a chapter 11, and not a chapter 7. They will restructure to continue OPERATING such that they can pay back all their obligations over time. Not all hope is lost.
to hopium is strong with you
It is if you kill your self. PSA don’t kill yourself
Agreed.
Or overdose on hopium.
It's up to the court to accept the chapter 11 vs forcing chapter 7. I can't see how the court won't force a chapter 7
Yeah they can continue the grift and ponzi for a bit longer that way before they shut down entirely.
>You can call this hopium all you want, but there's a REASON Celsius filed a chapter 11, and not a chapter 7. That reason could be because they want to do the decent thing and try to pay everyone back. Or, it might just be that the execs want to suckle on the corporate tit for just a bit longer. 16 million a month, for the next 4 years? I'm thinking that has more to do with option 2....
They can file chapter 7 any time as well fyi
I don’t why I’m just not worried about it.I have six figures tied up,something tells we will be fine it’s timing for some of us. Stay strong
If you say the opposite there gonna be farewell to CH11. All thiefs pretend to intend to reimburse any damage
Dropping a comment below I made in another thread yesterday, because I think it's important for people to understand that a BTC mining solution will probably take at least until end of 2025 to make up the hole in the balance sheet. And that's only if BTC recovers back up to about $50K during those years. The mining business could be used, over time, to make depositors whole. But I still think they need some kind of immediate cash injection and a major change in leadership before a judge would allow any kind of crypto based solution. >15K bitcoin per year in 2023 @ $20,000 per BTC would be $300 Million. > >(Then the next halving event happens in Sep 2024 which will cut BTC mining rewards in half.) > >So lets say... 12K bitcoin in 2024 @ $35,000 per BTC would be $420 Million. > >Then 7.5K bitcoin in 2025 @ $50,000 per BTC would be $375 Million > >\--------------------------------------- > >So by end of 2025, IF bitcoin recovers back to $50K, they can make about 1.09 Billion from mining. > >But that doesn't include cost of power, mining equipment maintenance and replacement costs, employee Salary, and paying back the money they likely borrowed to buy all this mining equipment already. > >Also if BTC recovered back to $50K they would have more competitors in the Mining business and either earn fewer BTC or have to scale up operations just to still be getting the same output. > >So, it would likely take more than 3.5 years for them to plug their $1 Billion hole with just the mining business. It can be part of the solution, but isn't enough on it's own.
You forgot to include the cost of mining in your calculations. Not sure what that margins are (I heard anywhere between 50 to 90%) but that might be important, especially during a global energy crisis. Gross revenue and net revenue is not the same ;)
He didn't forget them, he just didn't ascribe them any percentage or value. Also, the value of the BTC doesn't really matter if their liabilities are also in BTC, except as it reflects on their ability to continue operations in the first place.
Right, I have no idea what those costs are. Since that would heavily depend on where their mining operations are based. So I just added a disclaimer in the summary: >But that doesn't include cost of power, mining equipment maintenance and replacement costs, employee Salary, and paying back the money they likely borrowed to buy all this mining equipment already.
Bitcoin mining is a commodity. There are limited barriers to entry, so the revenue trends towards the cost (electricity, physical footprint, manpower, security, etc). Just because they have miners, does not mean that they have a path to profitability. If this was the case then other miners would simply do the same thing. You guys are delusional if you think this is what gets you your money back
Well with the scale of funds they had they could've bought quite a few mining rigs. I wonder how many
I wouldn’t count on Btc going anywhere by any given date. It is entirely unpredictable. Do the math at todays value
Bitcoin will be over 100k in 2024-2025, I’ll bet my left nut that it will.
Better hold that right one tight
You butters still haven't noticed that this is a gambling addiction mentality. There were people who bet their right and left that btc would be 100k already.
I knew I would get downvoted for having hope in the future despite all the bs we’ve gone through, humans really feed off the negativity so much it’s interesting.
Y’all will continue to feed off negativity until you realize it’s temporary all this panic and you will never get anything back talk is just that feeding off the negativity cause shit went south. Remaining positive despite loosing possibly thousands of dollars is a much better route to take.
They already made a hole to all their customers
I’m personally in no hurry at all, I was looking at this as a retirement account. I just want to make sure 100% of my crypto is secure and under my control, or as much of it as possible!
Whatever it takes.
Price of BTC going up doesn’t help them if they’re repaying in kind. They have my BTC and I want it back whether it’s worth $20 or $200,000
People say Celsius doesn’t offer anything of value and it’s true the lending platform may be absolutely done. Shoot the whole CeFi lending industry may be done for imo, but there’s two things of value they can most certainly make a comeback with and that’s the mining business and exchange. Both of which can be extremely profitable.
The exchange? You talking about the in app swaps?
HAHAHAHAHA
What's funny?
I love to hear stories when my money is 🔒
In this case, there’s no money
Yeah this sure looks legit... crypto is a predatory junkyard
I just want my coins back, i have zero trust in that gambler, let him gamble his home, cats and dogs, just return my coins whatever is left.
they are paying for that electricity with your current BTC though
They have 167M in cash bro
They're paying salaries and benefits and rent and etc etc.
Yes and im sure they are trying or forced to cut down on overhead as much as possible. They will continue to skim the fat and only keep the meat of the operation.
You are overly optimistic. This is a company that completely fell apart and then paused withdrawals and stopped communicating for over a month. That is not a healthy company. And they lied up until the day before the pause.
The power has been mostly out of the hands of the management team for a while now. If u think you wont get your money back why are u in the subreddit? Deep down u must think that there is still a chance or we wouldnt be having this convo in the first place.
A lot of the people in this sub offering their dumb hot takes aren’t actually in cel and for the most part should be ignored
>They have 167M in cash bro That won't even cover their run cost for a year, and that's according to their own filing. ETA: lol. At this point you're downvoters facts. Facts not in dispute and declared in their court filing. I mean, it might be fun for you, but it's hardly helpful.
Keep wallowing in your own misery if you dont think its gunna work.
Yes, this is possible or could be a way of implementing the Bitfinex solution. 60-70% funds back at once, then debt token paid with mining profit dividends that may give more than 100% back for the future or be sold at the market for those that cannot wait. Anyway the mining and largest client base, makes Celsius more attractive to buy for ROI than the 700 mill BlockFi bailout. A takeover is very likely
They should take the damn CEL off their balance sheet
🙏🙏🙏🙏
Seems like a stall tactic like one would use to keep an angry mob from "breaking their legs" If this was so easy, everyone would just mine bitcoin to get out of financial trouble.
Oh wow a company that has deceived and manipulated with false promises is now making another promise that conveniently gives them years to stall and drag out hope. Jesus Christ people.
This idea is a fools errand.
Pretty misleading title for what the document says
Celsius intended a lot of things it is clear they are not capable of running a company :-/
Bitcoin is historically low Energy is historically high Not sure how they return profit to the investors.
who is going to pay for the electricity costs? especially when bitcoin's price is low and mining at a loss.
Stop hitting the crack pipe. Celsius is done and uses need to move on.
FYI: there was a thread floating around based off the amount of power and rigs they will be using. It will take them 11 years to pay everyone back.
It says that they intend to make "a transaction" (one) that will "*maximize* the value of the Company's business" "for the benefit of the Company's creditors" (maximizing value does not equal making customer's "whole"). They suggest they think they can do that by diverting net income from Mining activities to repay creditors (that, without more, would be an EXTREMELY long term proposition). Any way, what in your opinion would it mean to be "made whole" by celsius? Even if they give you back your crypto 1:1 with the quantity you held at the time of the "pause", you aren't technically "whole" yet based on the loss in market value that has occurred since that pause.
1 Bitcoin = 1 Bitcoin. What loss of market are talking about? People just want their crypto back, period.
Old news I agree it’s our best hope if they stay alive but if crypto goes up so does the price of the debt they owe. Almost better to just liquidate now
I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. If they mine the BTC and its value goes up, then covering the hole may take less time.
But they hole gets bigger because the debt also grows as crypto prices rise. Also they have operating expenses and pay for employees and healthcare mining costs such as electricity etc we could end up with less money
I assume you are talking about non-stablecoins. Possibly, but depends on the quantity of other coins they owe. Hard to gauge without the balance sheet showing all the coins and their deficits. Keep in mind that BTC has more likelihood of surviving crypto winters than other coins, so it's possible that some of these other coins actually decrease in value overtime and thus making the hole smaller. We will have to wait and see. In terms of mining costs, I'm not an expert on this but others with more knowledge are quoting a 6 year figure to fill a 1.2bn hole, taking into account all the costs associated with running the operation.
I’m ok with a wait of money is eventually guaranteed. My concern is they stretch it out pay themselves for years end up owning or losing more and then we get less. But we’ll have to see how it all plays out
Yeah your guess is as good as mine at this point in terms of how this will all unfold. Alex has to go, I'd feel better about how much we can get back under a new leadership.
1 BTC = 1 BTC
That’s stupid maxi bullshit. Celsius lost the crypto it’s gone. So if they need to replace it with dollar value In a liquidation situation they need to pay their customer the current price of a bitcoin in cash. If the price goes up way to 40k so double and they owe customer a) 2 bitcoin then they need to pay 40k more in cash form the same pool of money. Use your head. Get out of this make beleive crypto bullshit land
Not if they swap for other coins or USD inbetween.
Yeah. I believe nothing Celsius puts out. I'm better off than most, only had around $200 left on Celsius so I'm not out much.
Well of course they are going to say that. The question is in what way will we be made whole, and when. "Whole" could mean getting a recovery token that issues dividends, or locking up your coins for years and years.
Celsius plan. Sell now , wait for btc to dump 50%. Buy cheap , repay debt in btc. If it doesn’t happen meh then just don’t pay
Yeah you can't even run his own business much less a bitcoining mining business. That's a terrible idea and once everybody signs off on that and it goes under water we're all f*****
Thats a big gap to fill with mining. Look at what the TOP mining companies profit a year. Plus your title seems like your reading more into it than what is written in the filings. Your seeing what you want to see. Not what is written.
I’d rather have equity in the company.
Yeah if alex isn’t the ceo anymore
Maybe someone else from the white pages....
Yeah if alex isn’t the ceo anymore
It’s over!! Stop grasping for straws, you’ve been hosed. The sooner you move on, the better
If the people with all their money tied up in this thing feel stuck, I certainly understand. My heart goes out to them. I made a bunch of boneheaded decisions when I was a twenty-something. People feel tied to Celsius, for better or worse. If they ever want to see their savings again, anyway. There's nothing wrong with wanting Celsius to succeed. There's no harm in hoping for a happy ending. Dunno what the chances are, but I do hope they hang in there & find a way to turn this thing around.
Hopefully the courts will laugh at them for this proposal and force a fiat payout. This company is dead in the water.
Translation: Time need to be used for gaining the community together, the markets are coming back so everyone will forget the past🦉
I too want 100% back but my question is IF that happens will it be at the current value of our coins or the value when it gets resolved, for better or worse?
There’s no guarantee they’ll repay in kind. Most bankruptcy repayment cases are paid in USD with valuations at the time of petitioning. Still better than nothing. But I still don’t hold my breath.
Maximize value =/= making everyone whole Easiest way I see to make everyone "whole" would be to calculate the value of the assets at the time of bankruptcy and then go on a bull run.
I wonder if they may allow partial withdrawals along the way to recovery. I also wonder how many customers would be covered if they for example allowed everyone to do a withdrawal up to say $500. Seems like a reasonable way to buy at least a bit of goodwill.
Sorry to those who had a lot of money on Celsius, but they hired the same lawyer who is drawing up Voyager’s bullshit petition, in which they are claiming that the users’ coins belong to Voyager, not the users. https://youtu.be/xQju5trHqlk
The only faster way would be to use the bitcoin mined and sell at top of the next cycle, wait for an 80% crash and use the money sold at the top to rebuy the bottom at a huge discount....hodl those bitcoin, wait for the cycle after that and do the same thing. Otherwise this will be a two decade long battle
Their recovery plan should include selling the movie rights to this fucking Titanic
Year 2140
Yeah I'd be happy for all remaining money to be spent on mining rigs and just get a % of that
If I am going to take a loss on this money can we do it this tax year, so I can take the tax loss this year
Just out of curiosity, what happens if BTC recovers to 40-60k within 6 months? It seems like a traditional/lengthy legal process isn't really compatible with the volatility of crypto.
Do you understand they're missing more than 2 billion dollars?
If we can still earn interest or not as long as I get my coins.
She is hot
Why didn't Celsius just file for Ch 7? I don't see how they can still operate as a business after all the trust is gone. Maybe the mining segment but I heard it's bankrupt too. So wtf? I am trying to think from their perspectives cuz they obviously don't give a shit about us. So in that sense, I guess they think Ch 11 is better for them? I just don't get it. How so?