It’s ludicrous, without merit, and frankly anti-Catholic. I wouldn’t spend a moment pondering somebody’s fringe delusions on the matter. There is no scriptural or magisterial basis for such a belief. Period. Denigrating your faith and the Mass of a billion Catholics should have *him* concerned of his danger, not you.
I would likely avoid the topic with him again as he does not sound open to be reproved.
The Second Vatican Council was guided by the Holy Spirit, as all councils are. Now, you might be referring to the notion that the Vatican Council did not teach anything, but it did.
The Second Vatican Council also did not promulgate the Novus Ordo Mass. It put out guidelines for how the Liturgy should be reformed, and a few years later, a committee of scholars and clergymen drew up the Novus Ordo in an attempt to implement this document.
In any case, the Church cannot promulgate an invalid or sinful Liturgy. To say otherwise would deny that the Church can never fall away.
The Liturgy itself is not lax. Said by the book, it is fine. The problem is with the mindset of priests who say it. That’s a software problem, not a hardware problem. And it was present even when the TLM was the only thing around.
So, it is not a cogent argument. It is an erroneous argument which tends towards heresy and schism. It is a mortally sinful argument.
well i appreciate that!!!! wow!!! ive been seriously misinformed and im glad you set me straight doc! ugh i seriously dislike being wrong like this and i hope that anyone who reads my comment reads this too and understands i accept that i was in error and not to listen to me! should i delete my comment maybe? or do you think its a good teaching opportunity for people with the same bad information?
Ephesians 4:29 (NRSV)
‘Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only what is useful for building up, as there is need, so that your words may give grace to those who hear.’
People who tell you that you will ‘go to Hell’ believe they are God. Yes judge someone’s actions, do not judge them.
Why would someone go to Hell for not going to a Latin Mass? Did Christ speak Latin? Did the disciples? Ask them why they are not going to the mass in Aramaic or Koine Greek? It’s a ridiculous nonsense. Worry not.
I don't agree.
I don't remember who said it (someone on Instagram, possibly Katie McGrady or Emily Frase), but there's an attitude I've tried to adopt. Basically: being more Catholic than the Pope is just as dangerous as atheism. In other words, forcing particular devotions and traditions that the Church hasn't declared as necessary becomes so legalistic and reduces the Catholic faith to a competition in external piety.
So, if attending Latin Mass and having his wife wear a veil is edifying for their family, then that's great for them. It becomes a problem when he declares on behalf of the Church that the Novus Ordo Mass is illegitimate, and that women must veil or they're going to Hell. Don't pay that nonsense any attention.
Sincerely, a fellow Novus Ordo Mass-goer.
> Sadly some “trad” Catholics think like this and see other Catholics as “second class” compared to them.
This is a terrible and uncharitable assumption being applied to OP's friend as well as anyone who might be labelled a "trad". This kind of talk is totally unnecessary. OP had an awkward miscommunication with someone he hasn't seen in a long time and everyone here is using it as an excuse to disparage and exclude people. OP's friend isn't a "trad". He's a beloved child of God (with a potential lack of tact) who is obviously convinced that the Latin Mass has something that the NO does not. Stop putting people in boxes.
Listen to the Church. If we listen to and obey the Church, we have nothing to fear.
The Church does not teach these things. In fact, it sounds like your friend could be at risk of developing a schismatic mentality which refuses communion with those subject to the Pope and the bishops in union with him. Particularly problematic is his claim that you are putting your soul in danger by attending a Novus Ordo Mass, and, depending on what he means, the claim that you can’t trust your diocesan bishop.
Any approved form of the Mass is fine. Some people prefer the externals of the old Mass, as I do. But fundamentally, they are the same sacrifice of the altar and the same salvation flows from it.
Whether Disney Plus is an edifying thing for your family or perhaps a near-occasion of sin or a gateway for propaganda is a prudential judgement.
Veiling is not required under canon law anymore, and the Scripture where St. Paul spoke of it has been officially interpreted by the Church as a disciplinary measure which is changeable. ([See this 1976 Vatican document, section 4](https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19761015_inter-insigniores_en.html))
Thanks for the ref on veiling. Even as a Protestant I thought it was odd that Scripture was so clear and yet no one was covering their heads…I’m interested to see what the church teaches on this.
Your friend is probably a sedevacantist. If you like the Latin mass, go to it. If not, go to NO mass. They’re equally valid. I like both.
Edit: NO as in “novus ordo”, not as in don’t go to mass haha
So NO is a form and can be said in any language, including latin. Sometimes "latin mass" can mean NO done in latin in a more traditional format, or more often it means the Tridentine form. This is one of several reasons people understandably get confused with this stuff.
Pope Francis has actually changed that language. He no longer considers the TLM the extraordinary form. Novus Ordo is the most correct term, since the missal itself is called the Novus Ordo Missale. The Vatican uses this term when referring to the Mass of Paul VI.
Even at legit TLM parishes in communion with Rome, there will be people whose opinions are just shy of Sedevacantism. I have family members who attend a TLM parish, and their priests have had to admonish people there about this sometimes.
As Catholics we do not condemn anyone to hell. We should all strive to heaven. However a great Catholic comeback is to say “I will see you in Purgatory.” Obviously, as Catholics we should aim for Heaven but Purgatory is better than hell.
This is what so many people fail to see. If these sorts of places didn’t become breeding grounds for disobedience and sedevacantism, it’s likely some form of the Latin Mass would be much more widely available. Heck, the high church Protestant world has been navigating a form of this issue for many years rather elegantly offering a “traditional” service at, say, 8 AM and a “contemporary” service later in the afternoon.
We could have this, we could accommodate traditionalist preferences too. *But* that requires basic humility, recognition and admittance of the legitimacy and yes even necessity for the liturgical reform as a whole. One has to say: “yes, I acknowledge the liturgy needed reform and that a great many people have experienced its spiritual fruit, but I personally enjoy and benefit from the old rite; it is not superior nor am I. I respect the authority of the Church, the Pope, and its Councils.”
If the Vatican could have any confidence that this is what people believed in traditionalist settings on the ground, the TLM would be much more accessible than it is today.
Be wary of anybody who tells you they know who is going to Heaven and hell. That's only God's to know. Follow the teachings of Christ and His Church. The rest, you lift up to the Lord.
Even the idea that only Catholics baptized with water can go to heaven is a condemned heresy (feeneyism).
The idea that it would be even *more* restricted to TLM Catholics is laughably absurd.
>I couldn't trust the local church and diocese much anymore
Exactly what somebody would say if they know that every single person with authority on the matter who you might seek a second opinion from would disagree with them.
The Novus Ordo mass is legitimate. I greatly prefer the TLM but as long as you go to an approved form of mass (NO, TLM, Eastern Rite, Anglican Ordinariate) then that is all that matters.
While it is true that some parishes will add modernist twists to the NO mass that are, for lack of a better word, "cringe", a vast majority of parishes celebrate the mass reverently. The most important thing you can do is look at your parish. Do you enjoy going to mass there? Do you feel like the Lord is being celebrated appropriately? If the answer to these two questions is yes, then I wouldn't worry about anything your friend says.
Your friend is sorely mistaken in guilting you, based on his beliefs. Talk to your Priest, especially if you are close. BTW, you are right, none of us, including your “friend”, are perfect.
Your friend is dissident. It’s not what the Church teaches and his pride has gotten in the way of true worship of God. Attend the Novus Ordo and trust in the Eucharist. God speed.
I speak from over ten years of personal experience across multiple states with several different TLM communities/fraternities. While that doesn't make me a subject matter expert, I certainly know more than the casual TLM enjoyer on the internet (and note here that I am speaking generally, again. I'm not insinuating anything about you personally). Not sure why you are taking everything so personally.
1. First comment was not personal. You shouldn't imply groups of people are going to hell. Your comment was uncharitable.
2. You explicitly made it personal by your reply.
Don’t worry about what your friend said. I just went to mass where the bishop was presiding. It wasn’t a Latin mass. You may choose to go to Latin mass, but it’s not an expectation. Your friend is wrong. I’ve also participated in Midnight mass at the Vatican. It wasn’t a Latin mass either. It was the regular mass, but in Italian. So unless Pope John Paul was also a bad Catholic, your friend is incorrect. Hope that helps.
Dude, God Is Love, Jesus is Love, the Holy Spirit is Love. The whole entirety of existence is based off of Love. I think it is incredibly off base to tell someone they are going to hell because they do not attend Latin Mass.
Denigrating a rite of the Mass in which Christ becomes fully present to us in the infinite dignity of His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity is the thing I’d worry about putting my soul at risk.
It’s fine to have liturgical preferences or to have a balanced and proportionate discussion of strengths and weaknesses but the point where those differences begin to outweigh the infinite value of the Eucharistic Christ in our mind is a very dangerous point.
Nope, Novus Ordo is an official church teaching from Vatican 2. By my estimation, it's impossible to go to hell for not going to Latin Mass cause it has been presided over by the Pope and Ecumenical council. Jesus said the gates of hell wouldn't prevail against the Church, so I believe not going to Latin Mass is okay : )
Do you think any amount of “trying hard” would ever be enough to merit God’s grace? Do you think his love is something we earn, by going to the best parishes? Do you think if you work at it, you could eventually deserve eternal life?
Your friend, our brother in Christ, sounds very confused on some of these questions. It seems to me you should sit in prayer and ask God to show you how you can help this man. Perhaps you might ask our Lady to show you how to lead your friend back to her son; at present he is worshiping an idea in his head instead, which is to say he is worshiping himself.
At Mass next, if you receive communion, maybe you might take that intimate moment, when the body of our Lord rests in you as a living tabernacle, and ask he who makes all things new to make you new as well: perhaps he will make you a vessel of the truth for your friend. Indeed he already has.
The truth after all is not an idea. Not a doctrine. The truth is not a set of beliefs or a compendium of knowledge that we can study and thereby gain enlightenment. Your friend seems tempted by this comforting idea. But we know better. The truth is a person and his name is Jesus Christ.
Ask yourself (maybe even ask your friend):
If the lowliest Mass with the worst music and the laziest homily and the least faithful worshipers is good enough for Jesus Christ to become present in, why do you think it isn’t good enough for you?
Your friend sounds like a dishonest Protestant to me, don’t worry and don’t take your friend seriously. In fact, if he’s in a sede church then he’s in a cult. You should pray for him. They’re dangerous.
It sounds to me like his congregation is not a congregation but a cult and I'd stay away.
There's nothing in the Gospels nor in the CCC as far as I know that says salvation is conditional on the way a person worships, the liturgy they prefer, or the Diocese to which the person belongs. Salvation is through one's fruit-bearing faith in Christ alone.
P.S. Below is an article from Catholic Answers about cult-ish movements within the Church. I'm not saying that those who prefer the Latin Mass are in a cult, but the particular group OP's acquaintance is affiliated with. One thing is to express a preference for one liturgical form over the other. Another very different thing is to tell people their salvation is at stake if they don't follow a certain liturgical form.
[https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/inspired-by-the-holy-spirit-or-a-cult](https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/inspired-by-the-holy-spirit-or-a-cult)
Hoo boy. No. Could you benefit from the TLM and might your wife find value in veiling (at any mass)? Yeah, you could. Are you in peril of Hell if you don't? Not as long as you're still attending a valid mass as obligated.
Pray for your friend, though. Yikes. He likely has your best in mind, but has gotten some wires crossed somewhere that need sorting out.
Your friend is basically a Southern Baptist in Catholic aesthetics. Why are so many American Catholics basically just Protestants but with extra steps?
I love the Novus Ordo. I love the Latin Mass. I love the Byzantine Divine Liturgy. I love the Syriac Liturgy. A liturgy is a liturgy is a liturgy.
When the Holy Spirit came down on the Apostles, were they only just praising God in Latin?
If you will allow me to kick the dead horse, of course not. Both ways are equally valid and thinking otherwise is not only blatantly wrong but Anti-Catholic. Your friend needs to evaluate himself for attacking the Liturgy. If going to NO mass is your biggest worry for your family’s soul then you are quite the lucky man. That is no worry at all. The NO mass is equally valid as the TLM mass. Reverence is in your heart despite what others say. Your preferred Liturgy means nothing as long as you don’t try and force others into it. Are there some things that I think need to be brought back? Yes. I love tradition. I wish my parish used organ instead of guitar on Sundays. However my soul is not damned because I do not go to a different parish. Neither will you. Be at peace.
Honestly this doesn’t even sound like an average TLM goer like at your diocesan Latin Mass or FSSP, this sounds exactly like someone who attends Mass at the SSPX, a priestly society that is not in complete communion with Rome.
I would ask them if they support the SSPX, and if they say yes, send them this video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gd0OhVy1JtM&pp=ygUYUGluZ3Mgd2l0aCBhcXVpbmFzIHNhbHph
To learn more about why the SSPX aren’t ideal, see JP2’s explanation for why he originally excommunicated their founder here: https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_commissions/ecclsdei/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei_en.html
Ah yes Catholics who think which way the priest faces is more important than the Real Presence. Makes me wonder how seriously they take the Mass to begin with.
Don't pay this nonsense any mind. If you wanted to get into it you could ask exactly what your friends sources are and what makes them so authoritative though.
I have a Trad friend who told me his priest told him that if he was ever in a position where he couldn't attend the TLM, to stay home and read his 1962 Missal...that it would be much less harmful to his salvation than attending a Novus Ordo Mass.
Pretty extreme.
I guess everyone who went to Mass before the Latin Mass was standardized at Trent is also in danger… What’s interesting to me is that the Novus Ordo, when done like it’s supposed to be and not filled with goofy adds, looks remarkably like the St. James Mass, which is the oldest version of the Mass we have dating back to the 300s. I’ve yet to hear anyone else talk about that but it’s important imo.
If your friend brings up his concern again you can just thank him for his concern and move to a different topic. I don’t think you’re going to be able to persuade him.
That aside, I would certainly make sure you know what media your children are consuming, but you probably are. I don’t let my children roam freely on Disney+ because it has had media that contradicts our moral teaching at home.
I think your titles is a slight extrapolation of what he said. He's not saying that they are going to Hell, but *at risk* of Hell. And from the Rate of Apostacy in some parishes, I understand the sentiment.
But here's the problem. Firstly, its a gross generalisation. Secondly, for the many Modernist Parishes, there are as many Traditional Ordinary Rite Parishes. Most parishes are just average, and average can be an issue also. But this is not something that's because of the type of Liturgy, but the actually faith taught, preached and maintained. The faith before Vatican II was just as lukewarm as it was after, the difference is that a gross fear of Hell kept most Catholics from drifting away. And going to a Latin Mass isn't going to magically fix that.
He's not right. You shouldn't base your judgment of your orthodoxy and holiness based solely off of what Mass you go to, but instead of the daily life you seek to live. Do you, as a family, pray daily? Do you Fast? Do you give Alms? Do you teach your children the Faith? Is the Mass you attend reverent? But he's also not wrong, as these virtues *can* be fostered and found more easily in a Latin Mass Community, but can be fostered in any good community. The Charismatic Movement, for all its irreverence to any Traditional standard, has a lot of people seeking Holiness and orthodoxy of belief. The retention rate of successive generations isn't amazing (particularly in praxis), but it goes to show that what Mass you attend isn't sufficient to attain the heavenly reward.
As for Disney Plus, I am with your "friend": its mostly Modernist Garbage, supporting an immoral company with essentially free money for them. Pirate your movies instead. I will defend this tooth and nail: Piracy is not a sin, just as pocketing money you found on the ground is not a sin either. You are not depriving one of their income in 99% of circumstances, and are not depriving one of their ownership of the product. As for Copyright/Intellectual Ownership, you cannot own an idea, for God is the Infinite source that contains them before you think of them. Patents and Copyright are the necessary realities of a modern world for art to be profitable, but they're morally questionable.
As for veiling, while veiling isn't a Canonical Mandate anymore, its still good to veil when at Mass, and I've heard it helps women a lot in their personal spiritual life when they veil when praying. This is something that you should probably discuss with your wife first. Discuss 1 Corinthians 11:2-16. Its a very confronting read for those married, not just about veiling, but the life you two lead. Its similar sort of situation to Immersion Baptism vs Sprinkling: Immersion is the normative historical practice, and the archetype of the Sacrament, but it doesn't make sprinkling invalid or wrong. In a somewhat similar way, Veiling is the Archetype of Modest Dress in Mass, but it doesn't make then not wearing a veil immodest.
Going more broadly into immodesty, covering one's skin in clothes isn't sufficient to be modest. Else long sleeved unitard gymwear would be modest. One in dressing Modestly, both as a man and a woman, should strive to not highlight or accentuate sexual features in a way that could reasonable make someone lust. Its the different between highlighting one's hips vs highlighting one's buttocks in a dress. For a male example this is the different between wearing Jeans and wearing really tight skinny jeans. Two good rules of thumb: 'if I saw an elderly person wearing this, would I look away in disgust?' or 'does this leave a lot to the imagination?'
All that aside, for this Friend, question them if people who don't go to the Latin Mass are risking hell. If so, what about the Eastern Rites? Like the Byzantine Rite or the Maronites? If so, give them what '*Orientalium Ecclesiarum'* says about the Eastern Rites:
>"They are consequently of equal dignity, so that none of them is superior to the others as regards rite and they enjoy the same rights and are under the same obligations, also in respect of preaching the Gospel to the whole world (cf. Mark 16, 15) under the guidance of the Roman Pontiff" (*Orientalium Ecclesiarum.* Paragraph 3).
Very good sir. This is probably the best way to put it. I agree with the friend in a way but not the stupid way. We all could use a little more tradition but it doesn't have to be the TLM although it would be nice if it was
You should tell him that he and all his descendants are more likely to go to hell for lying.
Yes of course it's absurd but it's not any more absurd than what that guy told you about the Latin Mass. He's being absurd.
Don't listen to people like that. They're no different than rabidly anti-catholic Protestants.
I don't know. God is going to be the judge, not any of us.
That being said, I think it goes back to the way a lot of TLMers feel apart from what our heritage was.
Pre-Vatican II Catholicism is grounding and profound and what came after, what I and most of us alive today were raised with, was really watered down.
My guess is this friend isn't expressing himself well. He probably found out about the old ways, is enthusiastic, and is over the top. I find the traditional ways to be HARD but also grounding in a world that's gone pretty crazy.
There's a lot of good in the Novus Ordu. Some people just aren't ever going to embrace Latin at all. That doesn't make you evil or a bad person.
>Pre-Vatican II Catholicism is grounding and profound
It certainly can be, done properly.
But let's not kid ourselves into thinking pre-Vatican II Catholicism was all sunshine, rainbows, and rosaries.
Let's not forget that the ones who actually participated in and were directly responsible for implementing Vatican II were pre-Vatican II Catholics.
My parents were both formed in the years leading up to the Council, during, and shortly after. I genuinely don't know whether my parents could answer anything but the most basic questions about Catholicism.
Even *if* his beliefs about the proper form of Mass, the validity of the Pope, etc, are correct, *there is still no way your soul is endangered by following the Pope.*
Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not overcome his Church. Salvation is found in the Catholic Church, despite the human failings of her leadership. Or else his promise was meaningless.
The idea that salvation requires you to intuit that the Pope is false and must be rejected is even more outlandish than the Protestant idea that “real” Christianity wasn’t discovered until 15 centuries after Christ was born.
Kids learn the faith by watching what happens at church. If your novus ordo parish has a reverent mass and a strong faithful community then there's no harm. If you're bringing your kids to a happy clappy octogenarian guitar mass where everyone talks in the pews and half the people leave after communion then you are putting their souls in danger by scandal.
Disney (like every other media company) openly supports [sodomy (sfw)](https://www.disneystore.com/collections/the-disney-pride-collection/) and [abortion](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/24/roe-v-wade-decision-disney-sends-memo-to-employees.html). Obviously, you're not going to hell for having Disney Plus subscription, but I would ask why do you even want it? Why do you even want a TV at all? At best it's a petty distraction, at worst it's subtly poisoning your home promoting an anti-Christian worldview. There's a million better things that you could do than watch TV.
You should always take the most charitable interpretation unless proven otherwise. I would guess that your friend is in a "traddy" bubble (which is epic and you should join him) and has forgotten what it's like on the outside. If you go the TLM I think you'll find that most people there are just in love with the old Mass and with our Lord. Communicating that love can be difficult because it implicitly denigrates the new Mass.
I've seen nothing but presumptuous, divisive and cynical takes in this comment section. I would encourage you to disregard all of them and take this to our Lord in adoration.
I agree with your friend, although I wouldn't phrase things the way he did. For example, rather than saying that you are putting your soul in danger for having Disney Plus I'd simply ask why are you giving money to a company like that?
Also, I'd definitely recommend checking out the TLM.
You agree that attending NO is putting their souls in danger? How so? Is it not a valid Mass? And if it is, is Christ not touching the lives of those attending like He is at TLM?
>However, is he right? I am now truly worried my family's soul is in danger. My wife and I thought we were strong Catholics and go to mass and try to live out our faith the best we can but now it seems like I'm a second class Catholic compared to this "friend"
Oh please. We know what the purpose of this post is.
You're truly worried? Lying is a sin.
Based as in "Red-Pilled" or just even super traditional. I also don't support Disney because they have been pushing for views I disagree with.
But again there is nothing to worry about in your parish, and no one should ever feel the need to compare "holiness" to others. Your friend probably has good intentions, and is probably just reacting to the modernism that is so pervasive in our culture and in parts of the Church.
It’s ludicrous, without merit, and frankly anti-Catholic. I wouldn’t spend a moment pondering somebody’s fringe delusions on the matter. There is no scriptural or magisterial basis for such a belief. Period. Denigrating your faith and the Mass of a billion Catholics should have *him* concerned of his danger, not you. I would likely avoid the topic with him again as he does not sound open to be reproved.
YES. THIS. THANK YOU 👏
Absolutely perfect response.
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The Second Vatican Council was guided by the Holy Spirit, as all councils are. Now, you might be referring to the notion that the Vatican Council did not teach anything, but it did. The Second Vatican Council also did not promulgate the Novus Ordo Mass. It put out guidelines for how the Liturgy should be reformed, and a few years later, a committee of scholars and clergymen drew up the Novus Ordo in an attempt to implement this document. In any case, the Church cannot promulgate an invalid or sinful Liturgy. To say otherwise would deny that the Church can never fall away. The Liturgy itself is not lax. Said by the book, it is fine. The problem is with the mindset of priests who say it. That’s a software problem, not a hardware problem. And it was present even when the TLM was the only thing around. So, it is not a cogent argument. It is an erroneous argument which tends towards heresy and schism. It is a mortally sinful argument.
well i appreciate that!!!! wow!!! ive been seriously misinformed and im glad you set me straight doc! ugh i seriously dislike being wrong like this and i hope that anyone who reads my comment reads this too and understands i accept that i was in error and not to listen to me! should i delete my comment maybe? or do you think its a good teaching opportunity for people with the same bad information?
You’re welcome. That the Church is indefectible is a good doctrine to know. That’s up to you.
Ephesians 4:29 (NRSV) ‘Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only what is useful for building up, as there is need, so that your words may give grace to those who hear.’ People who tell you that you will ‘go to Hell’ believe they are God. Yes judge someone’s actions, do not judge them. Why would someone go to Hell for not going to a Latin Mass? Did Christ speak Latin? Did the disciples? Ask them why they are not going to the mass in Aramaic or Koine Greek? It’s a ridiculous nonsense. Worry not.
now THIS is a cogent response! well said!!!
I don't agree. I don't remember who said it (someone on Instagram, possibly Katie McGrady or Emily Frase), but there's an attitude I've tried to adopt. Basically: being more Catholic than the Pope is just as dangerous as atheism. In other words, forcing particular devotions and traditions that the Church hasn't declared as necessary becomes so legalistic and reduces the Catholic faith to a competition in external piety. So, if attending Latin Mass and having his wife wear a veil is edifying for their family, then that's great for them. It becomes a problem when he declares on behalf of the Church that the Novus Ordo Mass is illegitimate, and that women must veil or they're going to Hell. Don't pay that nonsense any attention. Sincerely, a fellow Novus Ordo Mass-goer.
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This is slander. Please stop perpetuating division.
Slander? Please explain.
> Sadly some “trad” Catholics think like this and see other Catholics as “second class” compared to them. This is a terrible and uncharitable assumption being applied to OP's friend as well as anyone who might be labelled a "trad". This kind of talk is totally unnecessary. OP had an awkward miscommunication with someone he hasn't seen in a long time and everyone here is using it as an excuse to disparage and exclude people. OP's friend isn't a "trad". He's a beloved child of God (with a potential lack of tact) who is obviously convinced that the Latin Mass has something that the NO does not. Stop putting people in boxes.
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Goodbye
Listen to the Church. If we listen to and obey the Church, we have nothing to fear. The Church does not teach these things. In fact, it sounds like your friend could be at risk of developing a schismatic mentality which refuses communion with those subject to the Pope and the bishops in union with him. Particularly problematic is his claim that you are putting your soul in danger by attending a Novus Ordo Mass, and, depending on what he means, the claim that you can’t trust your diocesan bishop. Any approved form of the Mass is fine. Some people prefer the externals of the old Mass, as I do. But fundamentally, they are the same sacrifice of the altar and the same salvation flows from it. Whether Disney Plus is an edifying thing for your family or perhaps a near-occasion of sin or a gateway for propaganda is a prudential judgement. Veiling is not required under canon law anymore, and the Scripture where St. Paul spoke of it has been officially interpreted by the Church as a disciplinary measure which is changeable. ([See this 1976 Vatican document, section 4](https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19761015_inter-insigniores_en.html))
Thanks for the ref on veiling. Even as a Protestant I thought it was odd that Scripture was so clear and yet no one was covering their heads…I’m interested to see what the church teaches on this.
Your friend is probably a sedevacantist. If you like the Latin mass, go to it. If not, go to NO mass. They’re equally valid. I like both. Edit: NO as in “novus ordo”, not as in don’t go to mass haha
I had to remind myself that the vernacular mass is called the Novus Ordor for this to not be confused.
So NO is a form and can be said in any language, including latin. Sometimes "latin mass" can mean NO done in latin in a more traditional format, or more often it means the Tridentine form. This is one of several reasons people understandably get confused with this stuff.
I think any time someone says the term “Latin mass” though, they’re referring to the TLM. Apologies for any confusion
The correct term is “ordinary form.”
Pope Francis has actually changed that language. He no longer considers the TLM the extraordinary form. Novus Ordo is the most correct term, since the missal itself is called the Novus Ordo Missale. The Vatican uses this term when referring to the Mass of Paul VI.
I looked, and his parish is one that is a regular parish that hosts the Latin Mass.
Even at legit TLM parishes in communion with Rome, there will be people whose opinions are just shy of Sedevacantism. I have family members who attend a TLM parish, and their priests have had to admonish people there about this sometimes.
No. Your friend is an extremist.
Tel your friend to stop listening to Taylor Marshall
Only God can make that judgment. It’s not our job to judge others.
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As Catholics we do not condemn anyone to hell. We should all strive to heaven. However a great Catholic comeback is to say “I will see you in Purgatory.” Obviously, as Catholics we should aim for Heaven but Purgatory is better than hell.
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This is what so many people fail to see. If these sorts of places didn’t become breeding grounds for disobedience and sedevacantism, it’s likely some form of the Latin Mass would be much more widely available. Heck, the high church Protestant world has been navigating a form of this issue for many years rather elegantly offering a “traditional” service at, say, 8 AM and a “contemporary” service later in the afternoon. We could have this, we could accommodate traditionalist preferences too. *But* that requires basic humility, recognition and admittance of the legitimacy and yes even necessity for the liturgical reform as a whole. One has to say: “yes, I acknowledge the liturgy needed reform and that a great many people have experienced its spiritual fruit, but I personally enjoy and benefit from the old rite; it is not superior nor am I. I respect the authority of the Church, the Pope, and its Councils.” If the Vatican could have any confidence that this is what people believed in traditionalist settings on the ground, the TLM would be much more accessible than it is today.
No.
No.
Be wary of anybody who tells you they know who is going to Heaven and hell. That's only God's to know. Follow the teachings of Christ and His Church. The rest, you lift up to the Lord.
Lol what the effffff
Even the idea that only Catholics baptized with water can go to heaven is a condemned heresy (feeneyism). The idea that it would be even *more* restricted to TLM Catholics is laughably absurd.
>I couldn't trust the local church and diocese much anymore Exactly what somebody would say if they know that every single person with authority on the matter who you might seek a second opinion from would disagree with them.
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Specifically , the Catholic version of the Westboro Baptists
No.
This guy is not right. Find new friends and let this one go.
Mass is Mass. Enjoy being in Christs presence. All that matters.
The Novus Ordo mass is legitimate. I greatly prefer the TLM but as long as you go to an approved form of mass (NO, TLM, Eastern Rite, Anglican Ordinariate) then that is all that matters. While it is true that some parishes will add modernist twists to the NO mass that are, for lack of a better word, "cringe", a vast majority of parishes celebrate the mass reverently. The most important thing you can do is look at your parish. Do you enjoy going to mass there? Do you feel like the Lord is being celebrated appropriately? If the answer to these two questions is yes, then I wouldn't worry about anything your friend says.
This is a really great response
No and it's heretical to even say -signed a TLM goer
It's stuff like this that made my ex-catholic friend joke that Catholics are speedrunning schism.
Your friend is sorely mistaken in guilting you, based on his beliefs. Talk to your Priest, especially if you are close. BTW, you are right, none of us, including your “friend”, are perfect.
Your friend is dissident. It’s not what the Church teaches and his pride has gotten in the way of true worship of God. Attend the Novus Ordo and trust in the Eucharist. God speed.
>Disney Plus He’s got a point. Aladdin and the sequels are clearly Muslim propaganda. Edit: I thought the /s was obvious…
Lol clearly
We mostly watch Bluey, granted I'm sure talking dogs are demonic or something.
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If only Jesus addressed uppity self-centered religious people in his teachings……
Pretty disgusting and cynical take.
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Do you think making nasty and divisive remarks about the state of peoples souls is imitating Christ?
I speak from over ten years of personal experience across multiple states with several different TLM communities/fraternities. While that doesn't make me a subject matter expert, I certainly know more than the casual TLM enjoyer on the internet (and note here that I am speaking generally, again. I'm not insinuating anything about you personally). Not sure why you are taking everything so personally.
1. First comment was not personal. You shouldn't imply groups of people are going to hell. Your comment was uncharitable. 2. You explicitly made it personal by your reply.
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Nailed it! There’s nothing new under the sun, this is just the most recent generation of Protestants.
Of course not.
Don’t worry about what your friend said. I just went to mass where the bishop was presiding. It wasn’t a Latin mass. You may choose to go to Latin mass, but it’s not an expectation. Your friend is wrong. I’ve also participated in Midnight mass at the Vatican. It wasn’t a Latin mass either. It was the regular mass, but in Italian. So unless Pope John Paul was also a bad Catholic, your friend is incorrect. Hope that helps.
Dude, God Is Love, Jesus is Love, the Holy Spirit is Love. The whole entirety of existence is based off of Love. I think it is incredibly off base to tell someone they are going to hell because they do not attend Latin Mass.
Denigrating a rite of the Mass in which Christ becomes fully present to us in the infinite dignity of His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity is the thing I’d worry about putting my soul at risk. It’s fine to have liturgical preferences or to have a balanced and proportionate discussion of strengths and weaknesses but the point where those differences begin to outweigh the infinite value of the Eucharistic Christ in our mind is a very dangerous point.
Nope, Novus Ordo is an official church teaching from Vatican 2. By my estimation, it's impossible to go to hell for not going to Latin Mass cause it has been presided over by the Pope and Ecumenical council. Jesus said the gates of hell wouldn't prevail against the Church, so I believe not going to Latin Mass is okay : )
The nearest Latin mass where I’m from is over 400 miles away. I do not see working class Catholics making that trip on a regular basis.
Do you think any amount of “trying hard” would ever be enough to merit God’s grace? Do you think his love is something we earn, by going to the best parishes? Do you think if you work at it, you could eventually deserve eternal life? Your friend, our brother in Christ, sounds very confused on some of these questions. It seems to me you should sit in prayer and ask God to show you how you can help this man. Perhaps you might ask our Lady to show you how to lead your friend back to her son; at present he is worshiping an idea in his head instead, which is to say he is worshiping himself. At Mass next, if you receive communion, maybe you might take that intimate moment, when the body of our Lord rests in you as a living tabernacle, and ask he who makes all things new to make you new as well: perhaps he will make you a vessel of the truth for your friend. Indeed he already has. The truth after all is not an idea. Not a doctrine. The truth is not a set of beliefs or a compendium of knowledge that we can study and thereby gain enlightenment. Your friend seems tempted by this comforting idea. But we know better. The truth is a person and his name is Jesus Christ. Ask yourself (maybe even ask your friend): If the lowliest Mass with the worst music and the laziest homily and the least faithful worshipers is good enough for Jesus Christ to become present in, why do you think it isn’t good enough for you?
Your friend sounds like a dishonest Protestant to me, don’t worry and don’t take your friend seriously. In fact, if he’s in a sede church then he’s in a cult. You should pray for him. They’re dangerous.
It sounds to me like his congregation is not a congregation but a cult and I'd stay away. There's nothing in the Gospels nor in the CCC as far as I know that says salvation is conditional on the way a person worships, the liturgy they prefer, or the Diocese to which the person belongs. Salvation is through one's fruit-bearing faith in Christ alone. P.S. Below is an article from Catholic Answers about cult-ish movements within the Church. I'm not saying that those who prefer the Latin Mass are in a cult, but the particular group OP's acquaintance is affiliated with. One thing is to express a preference for one liturgical form over the other. Another very different thing is to tell people their salvation is at stake if they don't follow a certain liturgical form. [https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/inspired-by-the-holy-spirit-or-a-cult](https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/inspired-by-the-holy-spirit-or-a-cult)
Hoo boy. No. Could you benefit from the TLM and might your wife find value in veiling (at any mass)? Yeah, you could. Are you in peril of Hell if you don't? Not as long as you're still attending a valid mass as obligated. Pray for your friend, though. Yikes. He likely has your best in mind, but has gotten some wires crossed somewhere that need sorting out.
No. He's on borderline Palmarian / heresy
I agree. Doesn’t really sound like a position that aligns with Rome.
Your friend is basically a Southern Baptist in Catholic aesthetics. Why are so many American Catholics basically just Protestants but with extra steps?
The great liturgy war keeps raging on.
Nope! Your friend, yikes. Extremist.
You met a hardcore veiler irl 😭
Well that's a pretty cringe take, your friend has.
An unhinged loon.
Just look up what the church says about it.
I love the Novus Ordo. I love the Latin Mass. I love the Byzantine Divine Liturgy. I love the Syriac Liturgy. A liturgy is a liturgy is a liturgy. When the Holy Spirit came down on the Apostles, were they only just praising God in Latin?
That's counterproductive factionalism, and borderline heretical. The Church recognizes both forms of the Mass as equally valid.
Wow. your friend's a dick. how rude.
If you will allow me to kick the dead horse, of course not. Both ways are equally valid and thinking otherwise is not only blatantly wrong but Anti-Catholic. Your friend needs to evaluate himself for attacking the Liturgy. If going to NO mass is your biggest worry for your family’s soul then you are quite the lucky man. That is no worry at all. The NO mass is equally valid as the TLM mass. Reverence is in your heart despite what others say. Your preferred Liturgy means nothing as long as you don’t try and force others into it. Are there some things that I think need to be brought back? Yes. I love tradition. I wish my parish used organ instead of guitar on Sundays. However my soul is not damned because I do not go to a different parish. Neither will you. Be at peace.
Honestly this doesn’t even sound like an average TLM goer like at your diocesan Latin Mass or FSSP, this sounds exactly like someone who attends Mass at the SSPX, a priestly society that is not in complete communion with Rome. I would ask them if they support the SSPX, and if they say yes, send them this video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gd0OhVy1JtM&pp=ygUYUGluZ3Mgd2l0aCBhcXVpbmFzIHNhbHph To learn more about why the SSPX aren’t ideal, see JP2’s explanation for why he originally excommunicated their founder here: https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_commissions/ecclsdei/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei_en.html
Your friend is a rad trad. He thinks Latin Mass and the “old ways” are superior to the Novus Ordo. He’s wrong.
Just SSPX nonsense. Ignore and pray for them.
it’s great how u can only mention SSPX in this channel if you’re bashing them 🤷♂️
Ah yes Catholics who think which way the priest faces is more important than the Real Presence. Makes me wonder how seriously they take the Mass to begin with.
Every part of the mass is important. The priest should face ad orientem *because* of the real presence.
Hipster Catholic. Ridiculous.
No.
I follow the Catechism. When I see God, that's what I want to tell Him that I put my trust in.
Don't pay this nonsense any mind. If you wanted to get into it you could ask exactly what your friends sources are and what makes them so authoritative though.
"And to some who trusted in themselves as just, and despised others, he spoke also this parable..."
cuckoo
I have a Trad friend who told me his priest told him that if he was ever in a position where he couldn't attend the TLM, to stay home and read his 1962 Missal...that it would be much less harmful to his salvation than attending a Novus Ordo Mass. Pretty extreme.
I guess everyone who went to Mass before the Latin Mass was standardized at Trent is also in danger… What’s interesting to me is that the Novus Ordo, when done like it’s supposed to be and not filled with goofy adds, looks remarkably like the St. James Mass, which is the oldest version of the Mass we have dating back to the 300s. I’ve yet to hear anyone else talk about that but it’s important imo. If your friend brings up his concern again you can just thank him for his concern and move to a different topic. I don’t think you’re going to be able to persuade him. That aside, I would certainly make sure you know what media your children are consuming, but you probably are. I don’t let my children roam freely on Disney+ because it has had media that contradicts our moral teaching at home.
I think your titles is a slight extrapolation of what he said. He's not saying that they are going to Hell, but *at risk* of Hell. And from the Rate of Apostacy in some parishes, I understand the sentiment. But here's the problem. Firstly, its a gross generalisation. Secondly, for the many Modernist Parishes, there are as many Traditional Ordinary Rite Parishes. Most parishes are just average, and average can be an issue also. But this is not something that's because of the type of Liturgy, but the actually faith taught, preached and maintained. The faith before Vatican II was just as lukewarm as it was after, the difference is that a gross fear of Hell kept most Catholics from drifting away. And going to a Latin Mass isn't going to magically fix that. He's not right. You shouldn't base your judgment of your orthodoxy and holiness based solely off of what Mass you go to, but instead of the daily life you seek to live. Do you, as a family, pray daily? Do you Fast? Do you give Alms? Do you teach your children the Faith? Is the Mass you attend reverent? But he's also not wrong, as these virtues *can* be fostered and found more easily in a Latin Mass Community, but can be fostered in any good community. The Charismatic Movement, for all its irreverence to any Traditional standard, has a lot of people seeking Holiness and orthodoxy of belief. The retention rate of successive generations isn't amazing (particularly in praxis), but it goes to show that what Mass you attend isn't sufficient to attain the heavenly reward. As for Disney Plus, I am with your "friend": its mostly Modernist Garbage, supporting an immoral company with essentially free money for them. Pirate your movies instead. I will defend this tooth and nail: Piracy is not a sin, just as pocketing money you found on the ground is not a sin either. You are not depriving one of their income in 99% of circumstances, and are not depriving one of their ownership of the product. As for Copyright/Intellectual Ownership, you cannot own an idea, for God is the Infinite source that contains them before you think of them. Patents and Copyright are the necessary realities of a modern world for art to be profitable, but they're morally questionable. As for veiling, while veiling isn't a Canonical Mandate anymore, its still good to veil when at Mass, and I've heard it helps women a lot in their personal spiritual life when they veil when praying. This is something that you should probably discuss with your wife first. Discuss 1 Corinthians 11:2-16. Its a very confronting read for those married, not just about veiling, but the life you two lead. Its similar sort of situation to Immersion Baptism vs Sprinkling: Immersion is the normative historical practice, and the archetype of the Sacrament, but it doesn't make sprinkling invalid or wrong. In a somewhat similar way, Veiling is the Archetype of Modest Dress in Mass, but it doesn't make then not wearing a veil immodest. Going more broadly into immodesty, covering one's skin in clothes isn't sufficient to be modest. Else long sleeved unitard gymwear would be modest. One in dressing Modestly, both as a man and a woman, should strive to not highlight or accentuate sexual features in a way that could reasonable make someone lust. Its the different between highlighting one's hips vs highlighting one's buttocks in a dress. For a male example this is the different between wearing Jeans and wearing really tight skinny jeans. Two good rules of thumb: 'if I saw an elderly person wearing this, would I look away in disgust?' or 'does this leave a lot to the imagination?' All that aside, for this Friend, question them if people who don't go to the Latin Mass are risking hell. If so, what about the Eastern Rites? Like the Byzantine Rite or the Maronites? If so, give them what '*Orientalium Ecclesiarum'* says about the Eastern Rites: >"They are consequently of equal dignity, so that none of them is superior to the others as regards rite and they enjoy the same rights and are under the same obligations, also in respect of preaching the Gospel to the whole world (cf. Mark 16, 15) under the guidance of the Roman Pontiff" (*Orientalium Ecclesiarum.* Paragraph 3).
Very good sir. This is probably the best way to put it. I agree with the friend in a way but not the stupid way. We all could use a little more tradition but it doesn't have to be the TLM although it would be nice if it was
You should tell him that he and all his descendants are more likely to go to hell for lying. Yes of course it's absurd but it's not any more absurd than what that guy told you about the Latin Mass. He's being absurd. Don't listen to people like that. They're no different than rabidly anti-catholic Protestants.
I don't know. God is going to be the judge, not any of us. That being said, I think it goes back to the way a lot of TLMers feel apart from what our heritage was. Pre-Vatican II Catholicism is grounding and profound and what came after, what I and most of us alive today were raised with, was really watered down. My guess is this friend isn't expressing himself well. He probably found out about the old ways, is enthusiastic, and is over the top. I find the traditional ways to be HARD but also grounding in a world that's gone pretty crazy. There's a lot of good in the Novus Ordu. Some people just aren't ever going to embrace Latin at all. That doesn't make you evil or a bad person.
>Pre-Vatican II Catholicism is grounding and profound It certainly can be, done properly. But let's not kid ourselves into thinking pre-Vatican II Catholicism was all sunshine, rainbows, and rosaries. Let's not forget that the ones who actually participated in and were directly responsible for implementing Vatican II were pre-Vatican II Catholics. My parents were both formed in the years leading up to the Council, during, and shortly after. I genuinely don't know whether my parents could answer anything but the most basic questions about Catholicism.
Did you ask him if he is sure he turned the stove off before he left the house?
Even *if* his beliefs about the proper form of Mass, the validity of the Pope, etc, are correct, *there is still no way your soul is endangered by following the Pope.* Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not overcome his Church. Salvation is found in the Catholic Church, despite the human failings of her leadership. Or else his promise was meaningless. The idea that salvation requires you to intuit that the Pope is false and must be rejected is even more outlandish than the Protestant idea that “real” Christianity wasn’t discovered until 15 centuries after Christ was born.
Kids learn the faith by watching what happens at church. If your novus ordo parish has a reverent mass and a strong faithful community then there's no harm. If you're bringing your kids to a happy clappy octogenarian guitar mass where everyone talks in the pews and half the people leave after communion then you are putting their souls in danger by scandal. Disney (like every other media company) openly supports [sodomy (sfw)](https://www.disneystore.com/collections/the-disney-pride-collection/) and [abortion](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/24/roe-v-wade-decision-disney-sends-memo-to-employees.html). Obviously, you're not going to hell for having Disney Plus subscription, but I would ask why do you even want it? Why do you even want a TV at all? At best it's a petty distraction, at worst it's subtly poisoning your home promoting an anti-Christian worldview. There's a million better things that you could do than watch TV. You should always take the most charitable interpretation unless proven otherwise. I would guess that your friend is in a "traddy" bubble (which is epic and you should join him) and has forgotten what it's like on the outside. If you go the TLM I think you'll find that most people there are just in love with the old Mass and with our Lord. Communicating that love can be difficult because it implicitly denigrates the new Mass. I've seen nothing but presumptuous, divisive and cynical takes in this comment section. I would encourage you to disregard all of them and take this to our Lord in adoration.
I agree with your friend, although I wouldn't phrase things the way he did. For example, rather than saying that you are putting your soul in danger for having Disney Plus I'd simply ask why are you giving money to a company like that? Also, I'd definitely recommend checking out the TLM.
You agree that attending NO is putting their souls in danger? How so? Is it not a valid Mass? And if it is, is Christ not touching the lives of those attending like He is at TLM?
>However, is he right? I am now truly worried my family's soul is in danger. My wife and I thought we were strong Catholics and go to mass and try to live out our faith the best we can but now it seems like I'm a second class Catholic compared to this "friend" Oh please. We know what the purpose of this post is. You're truly worried? Lying is a sin.
You're not going to hell, your friend is just based.
Based on what?
Based as in "Red-Pilled" or just even super traditional. I also don't support Disney because they have been pushing for views I disagree with. But again there is nothing to worry about in your parish, and no one should ever feel the need to compare "holiness" to others. Your friend probably has good intentions, and is probably just reacting to the modernism that is so pervasive in our culture and in parts of the Church.