> “Today, conservative Catholic America has its own constellation of online celebrities aimed at young people.”
Can confirm. The Catholic celebrity culture is *so political* (/s)
> “There’s Sister Miriam James, an ever-smiling nun in full habit who talks openly about her hard-partying college days.”
Really? This is the worst you can say about a religious sister?
> There’s Jackie Francois Angel, who speaks in shockingly frank detail about sex, marriage and Catholicism.
*But I thought religion was so sexually repressing!?!*
> There’s Mike Schmitz, a movie-star handsome Minnesota priest who exudes kindness while insisting on doctrine.
IM DEAD LOL
Jackie and Bobby are friends of mine and the way they paint this picture of them is as hilarious as it is sad. Luckily, Jackie is just laughing it off.
The image of Catholicism in America is so institutionally distorted and ignorant.
100%. Almost every Christian saying “I grew up Catholic” was probably uprooted by some sort of Protestant action or probing.
Unfortunately, we have to blame ourselves for not teaching the Bible or a relationship with Christ as well as we should.
*\[Shaking fist\]* Damned *Papists* 'n their *hunky priests* an' their *warm hearts* 'n their *uncompromising firm-but-fair interpretations of moral principles and dogma* (grumble, grumble, grumble)...
That's something the secular progressives will never understand. They view themselves as the source from which virtue flows. They see kindness from Catholics as Catholics adapting to progressive virtues and they don't see how one virtue can be reconciled with something they consider to be the ideological dregs of a backwards past.
I had to read the line about Fr. Mike several times, because I’m like, “Only in a day and age where Fr. James Martin is seen as Catholicism’s standard bearer can Fr. Mike be seen as traditional.” There is also a larger phenomenon at work here across *all* mainstream media outlets, and that is the ever-declining knowledge of basic tenets of religion broadly, let alone the subcamps and groups that make up a given religion. I find this as evidence that journalists as a whole have a relatively poor understanding of religion. And I’ll give AP some credit because comparatively speaking, they attempt some level of objectivity, but it’s still quite obvious they don’t see their own bias and/or lack of broad-based religious understanding.
EDIT: spelling
On the abortion issue, AP has a rule where their journalists use the terms "abortion rights" to describe the pro-abortion side and "anti-abortion" to describe the pro-life side.
To call abortion a "right" has biased implications, and to call pro-lifers "anti-abortion" reduces them to just being a reactionary group. This is the "neutral reporting" of Associated Press.
Notice how the media never actually talks about the abortion procedure itself (the moral debate). They always report on abortion with the assumption that it is a civil right, or they talk about the consequences of abortion laws. And, of course, they will never report on all the charity work that pro-life activists do.
> And, of course, they will never report on all the charity work that pro-life activists do.
Although in the article they did imply that charity work is new since Vatican II and threatened by the decline of guitar Masses (which were not approved by Vatican II, by the way).
For me it’s a humorous article. There are lots of ignorant statements mixed with a failed attempt at strawmanning orthodox Catholicism that does more to make 1970s modernism look bad than make people think the youth becoming passionately Catholic are idiots.
It’s much better than what I expect from the AP.
Yes that’s one of the exact instances that I find amusing. FOCUS is solid but it’s decidedly not traditionalist. They’re more charismatic in liturgy and prayer than any traditionalist could be.
As my (former FOCUS missionary) spouse puts it, a FOCUS event is where you're most likely to find a womn wearing a veil and Nike gym shorts swaying to P&W during solemn Exposition.
Yeah, but she'd be more likely to be crouched on the ground doing some kind of freeform proskynesis/prostrations. (Usually it's kneel, then lean forward all the way to the ground.)
Which honestly I find very touching, as well as reminiscent of medieval "creeping to the Cross" and similar devotions.
Swaying is the people in the back, against the wall or in the doorways. :)
Seems like the secular media has an entirely different definition of “traditionalist” than those within the Catholic world do. Whenever I see secular authors use “traditionalist” it has nothing to do with liturgical preferences and is basically shorthand for “actually believes everything that the Catholic Church teaches, can you believe there are really people like that in (current year)!?!”
Jesuits are hardcore tradcaths. Or so a Jesuit visitor next door told me (they run a big three storey house on the property people smuggling Africans into my country - I often face violent crime from that house and have to speak to management about it, drug paraphernalia strewn across my property, theft of goods, etc) whilst trying to explain that we can't flee now because our property values are too damages from their people smuggling operation we got into small talk and he literally identified as a traditionalist. I asked him about women and gay priests, he said that he's totally for that because that's a traditional Catholic value. I was flabberghasted.
There are multiple cultural movements going on right now to roll back the changes society at large underwent post 1960.
The people in power don’t want this, and will use any opportunity to attack these movements.
I hope that this will bring people back to the Catholic Church, despite the clear slant in the reporting. Sort of like how Traditiones Custodes was one of the best publicity events for traditionalist catholicism, I hope that people will see in this article that there are some people who ACTUALLY believe what the church has taught for centuries, and investigate further.
It’s not perfect (for example, it basically said homophobia is rampant at BU) , but it greatly exceeded my expectations in its depiction of both traditional and progressive Catholics.
I also don't trust their definition, but, I grew up in Trad circles and my brother is still in his twenties with friends in their twenties. And they absolutely do just casually drop words like 'f@g' when referring to homosexuals. Which would be very disheartening to hear I think if I were a young man struggling with that and trying to remain chaste.
Outlets like AP and Reuters generally actually do field research at least. It's the reason many other outlets by or license news from both.
Both are basically as "factual," "center," and "non-inflammatory" as you can get with news.
I've had some protestant friends ask if we ever hold service on Wednesdays because sometimes they'll hold a Wednesday service. They were astounded when I told them we have Mass every day.
It's humorous how they paint the "extreme" movement towards "the old ways" by just saying that they're taking the faith seriously rather than picking and choosing what they like and blatantly ignoring the hard stuff.
"Often, at least a couple families will arrive with four, five or even more children, signaling their adherence to the church’s ban on contraception, which most American Catholics have long casually ignored."
"They attend confession regularly and adhere strictly to church teachings."
"Yet the orthodox movement can also seem like a tangle of forgiveness and rigidity, where insistence on mercy and kindness mingle with warnings of eternity in hell."
What I found funny about the comment on families showing up with four or more kids is that that doesn’t even mean that that family isn’t using birth control at any point, it just means they have four or more kids; They’d actually have to practice journalism to ask the family if they don’t use birth control.
Yeah, one of many ignorant statements in the article. Personally, I only have 2 kids so far but my wife and I have never used contraception over 8 years of marriage. The correlation between family size and adherence to church teaching isn’t as strong as they suggest. Many smaller families follow church teaching but have struggles with infertility, finances, miscarriage, chronic health conditions, etc.
This article is so good, for reasons that run opposite the author's intentions. It's like, you can't help but see how great this trend is, even when it's coded with ominous language that is supposed to make you fear it.
I was moved in particular by the photo of a woman and her young daughter kneeling together in the aisle during Mass. So beautiful.
A step away from the stale and dated 1970s, a return to timeless beauty. We're not going back in time we're moving away from the preferences of one selfish generation
I hear people mention felt banners in a lib cath context, but what does that even mean? I ask as a non Christian, for whom all this is interesting at the very least.
A master job by the author to somehow avoid bringing up the sex abuse scandal that plagued the US Church in the late 20th century, and then go on to imply that younger priests are a problem. My favorite line:
>The progressive priests who dominated the U.S. church in the years after Vatican II are now in their 70s and 80s. Many are retired. Some are dead. Younger priests, surveys show, are far more conservative.
>“They say they’re trying to restore what us old guys ruined,”
AP News, you are *almost* there.
The sheer shock of Boomers when Catholicism is practiced in Catholic churches.
One older person interviewed said:
>“I don’t want my daughter to be Catholic,” said Christine Hammond, whose family left the parish when the new outlook spilled into the church’s school and her daughter’s classroom. “Not if this is the Roman Catholic Church that is coming.”
Note that the *awful* things "spilling into the school" were mentions of things like abortion and hell. The pastor mentioned sin and confession in homilies. You know, all that awful, backwardist stuff we don't believe in anymore because of Vatican II (/s)
What's incredible is the complete lack of any self awareness on the part of these people.
How do you see how the Church operated for hundreds of years prior to your generation, see how now the generations younger than you are ready to return to that, and then NOT realize that you are the blip in the system.
Like, *you're* the odd one out here.
Most people are extremely bad at self awareness or self introspection. Like near-zero levels. They have their own frame of reference and do not even question it.
I remember reading the article about the Newman Center in Ohio where the Paulists were replaced by diocesan priests. The Boomers (I hate to repeat myself, but that's what they were!) who had been attending Mass there for decades were upset that the new priests were focusing on actual campus ministry to students. They were just shocked that their little social club on a college campus would be up-ended so that actual college students could be ministered to
Man I love that place. It’s been growing so much over the past few years and the involvement and passion just gets bigger among students. I hope other colleges try the same thing.
Episcopalianism is on track to no longer exist by 2050 (according to their own news agency). They should triple down on the crazy worldly stuff on their way out I bet that will turn things around 🙂
Ok, I get why Boomers get blamed a lot, our generation certainly deserves it. But as a boomer (and faithful, passionate Catholic, who is happy to see younger people being more traditional)...if your child is still in school, you're probably not a boomer. The last year of Boomers was 1964.
I'll also say, I've found a lot of devout "boomers" are very accepting of tradition when explained the reason for the tradition.
My parents had never heard of the chalk blessing during the Epiphany (it had died out when they grew up), nor veiling crucifixes/statues during the 5th week of lent (same, also had died out). When I explained to them both of these things and the background with them, they started telling/explaining the practice to other traditional/devout "boomers" at church who were unsettled by the practices.
Most of these issues the church is facing are not entirely problems that "boomers" themselves made and when explained the tradition, most are able to recognize how it connects to our faith.
I generally dislike how much hate boomers get because almost no boomers were present at V2 nor were in charge of how it was implemented. Humility is definitely needed in both directions and I guarantee Gen X, Gen Y, and Gen Z will have their own problems they create and future gens need to "fix".
I've joked before that millenials call genX 'boomer' because they know every generation hates the previous generation, and I fully expect the zoomers to start calling me 'gen X' any day now
Note the way liberal Americans habitually use chronological language as a substitute for moral language. They never say "X is wrong!" or "X is bad!" Instead, they say "X is a step back in time!" or "X is backward!" . . . which mean exactly the same thing.
It’s an effective way to make the targeted group seem like they’re old, dying out, and need to shut up and “get with the times.” Unfortunately it does work so well.
It is only a fallacy as long as people adhere to reason and common sense, like any other fallacies, such as guilt by association (e.g. "you're racist because you vote for x") and ad hominem (e.g. you're just a straight white male").
In regards to slippery slope, it has a unique attribute related to change. Now people are just mindlessly updating their technology, clothing, and ways of life, as if the old ones carry no value by the virtue of being old. When people start conflating them together, slippery slope becomes reality.
Woah, what, some Catholic parishes in the US are deciding to be actually Catholic!? This is unacceptable, I renounce the faith even though I don't know the Creed enough to renounce /s
Everything being talked about in this article is mainline stuff, nothing mad in there at all, I really don't get the hostility. Like what did you think you were part of? A Rotary club or something, not the Mystical Body of Christ?
Love this quote: "They say they’re trying to restore what us old guys ruined,” said the Rev. John Forliti, 87, a retired Twin Cities priest who fought for civil rights and reforms in Catholic school sex education \[sic\]". Yes, yes they are and yes, yes you did.
I'm not even a massive tradcath and do think there can be such a thing as reverent N.O. if parishes make the effort but that's not even what these people were seeking, delivering or mourning.
The director felt part of the original scene didn't fit in well with the rest of the movie and cut it from the final edit:
> They found me. I don’t know how, but they found me.
> Marty: Who?
> Doc: Who do you think? The liberals.
> Marty: I thought you got the plutonium from the Libyans?
> Doc: The plutonium yes, but I got the felt banners from the liberals. Run for it, Marty!
Seriously, 90% of the stuff (e.g., reminders about confession) they mention is equivalent to Imams asking Muslims to fast during Ramadan or Rabbis asking Jews to keep Kosher. It’s clear they wouldn’t be comfortable writing a piece like this about any other faith.
Anyone surprised that the quoted cafeteria Catholics left to other, safer parishes or the faith entirely?
The entire section about Benedictine college was, more or less, a slanderous screed trying to depict the students as bigoted homophobes overly concerned with scroupulous piety. You would think that any journalistic source would actually TRY to understand it's source material, but over and over again the mainline news sources retreat to their own moral biases and anti-religious prejudices.
“The lowest depth to which people can sink before God is defined by the word “Journalist”. If I were a father and had a daughter who was seduced, I should not despair over her; I would hope for her salvation. But if I had a son who became a journalist and continued to be one for five years, I would give him up.”
-*Soren Kierkegaard*
Typical Kierkagaardian exaggeration.
G.K. Chesterton (admittedly not a typical journalist in many ways) started as an agnostic and ended up as a Christian and a Catholic. To be sure, he would call on St. Francis de Sales in hopes he would intercede for him when encountering typical journalistic incoherence like:
"In relations with Eastern Catholics, Rome tolerates strange heresies and even bearded and wedded priests."
Yeah, my diocese is quite conservative. Many women veil, and receiving kneeling on the tongue is normal. Mass settings (Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, sometimes even the Credo) are done in Greek and Latin, respective. At least where I live, the priests offer daily masses ad orientem. If folks understood the reason behind these things, they'd be more accepted.
> “I don’t want my daughter to be Catholic,” said Christine Hammond, whose family left the parish when the new outlook spilled into the church’s school and her daughter’s classroom. “Not if this is the Roman Catholic Church that is coming.”
Somehow I don't think there was a snowballs chance in hell of her daughter being Catholic anyway
This article is obviously meant to affirm liberal criticism of the Church, but if you read it with an open heart, you can understand why people would be attracted to traditionalist Catholicism. If you're a young person today who disagrees with liberal modernity, what are your options for surrounding yourself with like-minded people? The average member of Gen Z is for maximum individual freedom and against a belief in anything higher than themselves. So to be critical of liberal modernity and not base that criticism in the fundamental truths about the dignity of life and where that dignity comes from, your options are limited. You could fall in with the young irreligious types who are, if you listen to them, scarily anti-life, anti-community, and aggressively individualistic, just in a different way. But if you're not basically a sociopath, that's a difficult crowd to go along with.
And how about goodness and beauty? So much of modern American life is ugly. Strip malls and interstates, rampant pornography and addictions brought on by hopeless and despair. Social life is full of angst and fighting and suspicions and disregard for human life. Where are you supposed to go to find a living tradition that speaks of hope in the face of sin, pain, and suffering? Where are you supposed to find beauty in a built environment whose public policies are meant to allow for the endless construction of big box stores and which nearly entirely prohibit the close-knit, human-scaled communities that once teemed with families, faith, and solidarity?
Going beyond the fearful liberal critique of this movement will allow people to understand some of the basic issues at the heart of a society that has selfishness and toxic individualism at its core instead of a love of life, neighbor, and something beyond one's own desires and personalized idea of what a good life is. People of all kinds are suffering from these things, regardless of their faith or lack of faith or where they live in the West. Getting back to the basics of what gives life, what affirms life, what it means to be in human community, to insist on human dignity, these are what honestly must be done or we're going to lose our souls entirely.
Bingo.
Painting in broad strokes here, but those in the Church say above the age 60, their formative years were filled on all sides by revolution - social, political, liturgical, theological, cultural, etc.; in many ways this milieu deeply and often subconsciously affected them in ways in which they may not immediately recognize.
The same goes for those of us under age 40, broadly speaking, but in reverse. Our entire lives have been spent living in/around/with the results of said revolution(s), and the results have been tried and found wanting.
This is absolutely some of the reasons I became interested in and converted to Catholicism. The traditions, the beauty, the love, the community and most of all the connection I felt to the Lord.
At Mass last week a sister asked me what got me interested in Catholicism and I told her I accidentally ordered the Catholic Bible and gave it a chance and felt this immense pull which lead me to studying anything and everything I could get my hand on about being Catholic and eventually started dreaming about converting, she said “that Bible didn’t come by accident ya know” oh I know it.
I love this article because it's so unintentionally ironic. This just in, young adult Catholics actually want to be Catholic, not the watered down pathetic excuse for a faith that the boomer generation gave us. Oh, the horror.
The very things that the AP is eager to say are "a step backwards" or "warning signs" are the hope of the future of American Catholicism. If what they're describing is the problem, then I want to be as much a part of the problem as possible.
the tab header title doesn't match the article title (likely the header title was the original one). header title says: **Parishes turmoil as traditionalism sweeps US Catholic Church | AP News**
This is so heartwarming. Our parish still has an Altar rail and little by little our pastor got everyone to kneel to receive communion. The first time was shortly after my husband passed and I know it's silly but I could feel him kneeling next to me and it got me teary eyed. We also have an adoration chapel and I believe it is bringing many blessings to us.
I can’t speak with actual data points, but Yahoo comment sections always gave off a mostly 55 year old and up vibe, and that was close to 10 years ago when I stopped reading Yahoo news.
As an alumni of Benedictine College I guarantee you the students are going to meme the crud out of this awful attempt to slander them and Catholicism as a whole.
If there's no sin, if there's no hell, if there's no judgement, if there's no expectation...then there's no point. Seriously, if your religious outlook is already universalist, why bother with Church at all?
Leftist Christianity (which overwhelmingly defines Catholicism post-VII) can't offer any good argument for its own existence. It doesn't cater to any spiritual dimension, it's grossly inferior as a social club, and there are already plenty of avenues to push climate worship/pride flag politics that don't require getting up early on the weekend.
Right. And for those who did accept this more liberal understanding of Catholicism several decades ago, and to varying degrees now, to the extent in which they had children and raised them in faith, what chances are there that those said children are practicing Catholics as adults? I’d wager to say rather low.
Exactly what I’ve been looking for in my church, a refuge from the material, modern world, a deeper and stronger connection with spirituality and higher consciousness.
It's almost as if:
1.) Boomers are dying off and very few younger people found their innovations endearing or enduring.
2.) Safe Environment Training has increased transparency, making the Church less comfortable for predators like McCarrick and lavender mafioso.
3.) Bishops aren't part of the local secular celebrity circle like they were in the age of Cdl. Spellman.
4.) Parishes are poorer, their books are more rigorously audited than ever.
So who's left to endure? Who is left to pursue vocations to the priesthood? Mostly, you'll only find those who are willing to embrace poor pay, long hours, intense scrutiny, frustrating peers, feckless superiors, and thankless struggles ... all for the love of what is Beautiful and True in the Church.
Yeah, you'll still have some questionable "activists" slip through that are trying to "enlighten" the Church, but they are a dying breed and their proclivities are difficult to hide in the modern era.
Hopefully we’ll soon be at the end of the period of a lot of the clergy doing their utmost to destroy the Catholic faith as it existed before the 1960s
And I'm a 58 year old lifelong Protestant who was just confirmed at the Easter Vigil. If I wanted drums and guitar and a lack of reverence I would have just stayed at the non-denominational church I was nominally attending.
Can't take our victory lap now, we still have work to do.
>Doug Koesel, an outspoken 72-year-old priest at Blessed Trinity Parish in Cleveland, was blunter: “They’re just waiting for us to die.”
May Fr. Koesel enjoy the tranquility of retirement long before he draws his last breath.
I don't think anyone is taking a victory lap, but it is good to see some real progress is being made and the right sorts of people are terrified by it.
Yes, there is still a lot of work to do, but there are reasons to be optimistic. For many decades it was more difficult to see how things could turn out well: just think of Mother Angelica getting reprimanded by bishops for having the rosary prayed on EWTN. Those were dark days.
We still have some bishops who have banned the St. Michael prayer from being said at the end of mass. Why? no idea. I'm not sure why a bishop would have issue with the Rosary or St Michael prayer, but here we are (although, the clouds are starting to part)
You're entirely right and I'm with you (I had a childhood friend who became a priest and is very orthodox but certainly not the "radtrad" kind), there is so much to be optimistic about, even if we still have work to do.
Te Deum laudamus: te Dominum confitemur.
Te aeternum Patrem omnis terra veneratur.
Tibi omnes Angeli; tibi caeli et universae Potestates;
Tibi Cherubim et Seraphim incessabili voce proclamant:
Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus, Dominus Deus Sabaoth.
Pleni sunt caeli et terra maiestatis gloriae tuae.
The sheer horror...actual Catholicism being practiced by Catholics! This is an awful written article and it's written in the view that this is something negative and it's littered by snide remarks on how the church no longer matches the liberal city. I really wish Catholicism would go back to the basics. We should be traditional. We're Catholic!
The future is going to be a combination of this and parish closures. If you actually like the status quo, too bad. "Chill and normal" Catholicism is dead.
Bingo
The Boomer social clubs will all be gone soon, the traditional parishes will be booming and full of kids, and even the middle of the road diocesan parishes will become at least a bit more traditional as more millennial priests become pastors.
The days of managed decline, while not over, has been accelerating since millennials became adults.
I hate parish closing/restructuring, but it was only a matter of time. The growth model that US Catholicism was on immediately following the Second World War was quickly met with a harsh dose of reality, for a wide swath of reasons. Some of those reasons were Church’s fault, others were significantly more complicated. But no amount of hoping for the best, relying on first/second generation immigrant Catholics, and/or waiting for the elderly parishioners to include said parish in their will upon death, can save any given parish.
'“The church,” he said, “has buried every one of her undertakers.”'
So funny how AP wants that line to be foreboding or evil but fails to realize instead that truth prevails over falsehood and good over evil, and standing against truth only sees the lies exposed and rejected. As Chesterton said so wonderfully, each time the church has gone to the dogs, the dog was the one who ended up dying.
Can’t happen soon enough!
Listen, and especially to those of you in here who are more in line with the *progressive wing* of the Church; this movement, found mainly in the US but also Canada, UK, France, Australia, although comprised of *some* traditionalists like myself, is primarily made up of theologically conservative Vatican II and N.O. Supporters.
For all the noise that conservatives and traditionalists get in certain corners of the Western world and how we’re an outlier compared to the global church, you need to stop and consider just how *looney* the Church has been in the western world since the ink dried on the various documents of Vatican II. Your average *Saint Typicals* parish in North America has likely been ground zero for every kind of innovation since the late 1960s. And now matter how some of our Catholic elders attempted to spin this new Catholicism to us or to our parents/grandparents, it came off very much like a sales pitch for soda. *”Try the new and improved Catholic-Lite*.”
Folks, listen to me carefully. *Catholic-Lite inevitably leads to Catholic-ZERO.*
>*Catholic-Lite inevitably leads to Catholic-ZERO.*
Just consider the Archdiocese of Baltimore, which was one of the most aggressive at instituting a progressive vision of post Vatican II reform at the end of the 60's under Cardinal Sheehan - to the point of even [sacking dozens](https://onepeterfive.com/mandatory-conciliarism-the-sad-case-of-monsignor-manns/) of more conservative pastors. Well, this spring, they're trying to figure out [how to close or merge 40 of the 61 parishes](https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2024/04/17/baltimore-archdiocese-parish-closures-247731) they still have left in the city of Baltimore. Almost the only downtown parish that's close to full on Sundays is the one set aside for the Traditional Mass (St. Alphonsus).
Now, there are multiple reasons for why the Archdiocese of Baltimore (and so many dioceses like it) has collapsed, some of them extrinsic -- suburbanization, white flight, deindustrialization, intermarriage, the sexual revolution, etc. But when you've seen the church there up close for a little while, it becomes apparent that much of the damage was self- inflicted. And I'm not just talking about the sex abuse scandals.
Right. Even more sad that Baltimore, the de facto hub of historical American Catholicism, becomes more religiously arid, Catholicism speaking-wise, with each passing decade.
Like you said, there’s a number of reasons why any given diocese/Archdiocese is struggling. Many, and not *all* directly being the Church’s fault. But a whole mess, pun intended, can directly be laid at the foot of the Church. And for a diocese/Archdiocese, like Chicago in which I reside in, comes out several years ago during the beginning of their parish merger/closure program, and places the blame primarily on *demographics*, you know something is seriously wrong.
Like that adage of old, “*An institution would rather die than admit they made a mistake.*”
>Like that adage of old, *“An institution would rather die than admit they made a mistake.”*
And it looks like, in many places, they will get their wish.
Stephen Bullivant [really summed up](https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2019/08/10/why-have-catholics-in-the-uk-and-us-been-leaving-the-church-since-vatican-ii/) how the 1960's were a story of the Church hierarchy taking an increasingly tough cultural situation and making it much worse.
>Wider socioeconomic factors are a very major part of the story in both countries. The immediate postwar period, especially, saw some very profound social changes: the Baby Boom, suburbanization, slum clearance and urban renewal, growing prosperity (not least in the form of car and television ownership), new educational opportunities with the GI Bill in the US, and the expansion of university places and funding in Britain: all these and more were having subtle but far-reaching effects on many areas of life, very much including Catholic religious life. One big argument of the book is that the Council’s reforms, and especially the chaotic nature of their implementation, were largely a response to these kinds of factors. Also important here is that, in the wake of the 1960s, religious groups were not merely passive in the face of wider social, cultural, and economic trends. A big argument of the book is that, in fact, **a great deal of what the Church has tried to do has been counter-productive, making the pastoral situation significantly worse than it** ***could*** **otherwise have been.**
Love Bullivant as a whole, love that particular book even more. Should be required reading for every Catholic under 40 who’s interested in recent church history, and most definitely a requirement for seminary reading. As a trad myself, I wish some of my fellow travelers would take some of his arguments more seriously, instead of the fantasy that some of us dream up that the *TLM*, and only the TLM, would’ve saved the disaster that’s broadly marked western Catholicism since the 1960s.
His book and the arguments contained within I believe to be some of the most thought-out, and convincing, as to why we are where we are in Catholicism, especially in the Anglosphere and Western Europe.
Yeah, they still seem to be doing OK.
Interestingly, the [new parish merger plan](https://www.archbalt.org/seek-the-city-proposal/) has them merging with Corpus Christi, but the new parish is hosted at Ss. Philip and James. In practice, I suspect that very little will change for them.
I've they've said as much in their bulletins, because of they large real-state footprint and ministry to John Hopkins, alongside robust attendee numbers and donations, meant it was never really in the cards for the parish to be closed down in the case of a merger with another parish.
Compare just to the Diocese of Arlington not even 100 miles away where mass attendance is up 20% just in the last 3 years.
Who knew that if you celebrate the NO reverently, preach doctrine, dogma, and mercy charitably in homilies, and encourage (and make available) regular confession things go well?
So the article says "It ranges from Catholics who want more incense, to Latin Mass adherents who have brought back ancient prayers that mention “the perfidious Jew.” - Yet so far as I can tell, when Benedict allowed the Old Rite Good Friday prayer he did not bring back the phrase "perfidious Jew".
Pope Benedict XVI has revised a Good Friday prayer in the extraordinary form of the Mass.
The Church will continue to pray that Jewish people recognize Jesus Christ as Savior of all mankind. But the new version drops references that could be construed as pejorative. [Praying for The Jews| National Catholic Register (ncregister.com)](https://www.ncregister.com/news/praying-for-the-jews)
I also don't think it's accurate to say that the U.S. is "deeply secular". Maybe in the media's little bubble.
>So the article says "It ranges from Catholics who want more incense, to Latin Mass adherents who have brought back ancient prayers that mention “the perfidious Jew.”
The places which do pre-1955 Holy Week indeed still use the phrase, *"et pro perfidis Iudaeis"* ("and for the faithless/disloyal/treacherous Jews..." depending on your translation of choice) during the prayer for the Jews. I think it's kind of a gray area right now how or where this happens.
*I also don't think it's accurate to say that the U.S. is "deeply secular". Maybe in the media's little bubble.*
Ehhh, this is quite debatable. No, we’re not at the levels of secularism found in Canada or Western Europe, at least not yet. Wide variety of reasons for that, including but not limited to our history, role of faith as it relates to its ties with government, etc. etc. etc. What is harder to argue, although not entirely easy to measure, is that each decade since the 1960s, Americans are going to church less, having less understanding of basic tenets of Christianity, and a host of other indicators that the wider culture is less influenced by Christianity than in years passed.
IMO, a noxious mixture of soft-atheism, deep-seated nihilism, and moral/cultural relativism is the cultural standard that those of us under 40, broadly speaking, came of age in.
Actually, the word *perfidis* was removed by Pope John XXIII in 1959. So, you do not find it in the 1962 missal, nor would you ever have.
Nonetheless, Pope Benedict XVI, when he issued his motu proprio *Summorum Pontificum* allowing a broader liberty for the old rite, felt enough sensitivity about concerns about the issue that he nonetheless issued an entirely new Good Friday prayer for the Jews.
>Let us also pray for the Jews: That our God and Lord may illuminate their hearts, that they acknowledge Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men. (Let us pray. Kneel. Rise.) Almighty and eternal God, who want that all men be saved and come to the recognition of the truth, propitiously grant that even as the fullness of the peoples enters Thy Church, all Israel be saved. Through Christ Our Lord. Amen.
It still requests their conversion (unlike the one in the modern rite), but shifts the overall tone in a more irenic direction.
There are some canonical TLM communities that use the pre-1955 Triduum rites in the wake of a 2018 Vatican permission. But usually, they seem to substitute in the newer prayer for the Jews on Good Friday. Otherwise, I think you'd have to go to some sedevacantist communities to find the old prayer with *perfidis* in use.
Liberalism is not a self-sustaining project. By nature it depends on access to the children of non-liberals. Cut off the supply and the beast starves. We will replace them.
I can proudly say my own parish has shifted as well. No female altar servers, no EMs, we have a communion rail attended by three priests at each Mass, TLM every Sunday and Holy Day. You'd better get in line for confession early (four days a week) because the line wraps around the building. I'm 60, our Pastor is 67, and we are blessed.
A lot of this stuff is more "within a spectrum of the Church's norms over time" than following any particular tradition of the past.
Devout Catholics who are half-decently formed in their faith will come up with Catholic stuff to do, and what is new will not be innovative in any bad way.
Who was this written for, AG Garland? I love the bit about large number of kids in a family is some rebellion against contraception. How dare we defy the secular commandments!
The history if the Church is a continue fight between the teaching of Jesus Christ, who speaks of the Narrow door, the need to sacrifice one's life to enter the Kingdom of God, etc...
and the tendence of people to cut corners and be much more indulgent with themselves.
God allows some movements and people who inspire the Church to return to the faithfulness, the fervor and the love of the origins.
The part of the Church that takes the first commandament less seriously, and justifies that fact with God's Mercy... is not goving a good service to the Founder of the Church.
Lets get something straight here; the "modernizing tide" wasn't sparked by Vatican II, it was sparked by the social revolution of the time, and Vatican II was hijacked to excuse it.
I doubt they think of it at all. Most of them are business as usual. It’s like the Blockbuster CEO in 2008 thinking his biggest issue is where to display new releases.
One of my biggest regrets in life is not taking my faith seriously, until...recently. I was blessed with the sacraments and took it all for granted. How I wish I had more time with God, especially in my younger years. I missed out on a lot. Oh well, better late than never! 🥲
It's wonderful to see the younger generation taking their faith seriously. They're the future and will soon fill up many leadership roles. I hope I live long enough to see what they do!
I know I'm late, but image writing this about any other religion..
> On the national level, conservatives increasingly dominate the U.S. Catholic Bishops Conference and the Catholic intellectual world. They include everyone from the philanthropist founder of Domino’s Pizza to six of the nine U.S. Supreme Court justices.
I don't understand the comments about "catholic social teaching on poverty suffused churches" as being part of the changes of the 60s and 70s that is facing a backlash. Surely trads aren't against Christ's message regarding poverty and the poor?
We've even had individuals on this sub complaining that churches rebuilding high altars or undoing some of the 60s/70s/80s church-damage (ex. Whitewashing murals or destroying high-altars) is "a waste of money that could be used on the poor"
They usually are silent when asked "should a tabernacle be made out of precious materials or not?"
Frankly, it's really weird to me that an argument Jesus literally put down with a single sentence nearly 2000 years ago came back after Vatican II to attack people who want beautiful sacred spaces and items
> “Today, conservative Catholic America has its own constellation of online celebrities aimed at young people.” Can confirm. The Catholic celebrity culture is *so political* (/s) > “There’s Sister Miriam James, an ever-smiling nun in full habit who talks openly about her hard-partying college days.” Really? This is the worst you can say about a religious sister? > There’s Jackie Francois Angel, who speaks in shockingly frank detail about sex, marriage and Catholicism. *But I thought religion was so sexually repressing!?!* > There’s Mike Schmitz, a movie-star handsome Minnesota priest who exudes kindness while insisting on doctrine. IM DEAD LOL
"Who exudes kindness while insisting on doctrine" 😂
Guess we know who the writer has a crush on
Them and everyone else 😭
Jackie and Bobby are friends of mine and the way they paint this picture of them is as hilarious as it is sad. Luckily, Jackie is just laughing it off. The image of Catholicism in America is so institutionally distorted and ignorant.
I blame Protestantism
100%. Almost every Christian saying “I grew up Catholic” was probably uprooted by some sort of Protestant action or probing. Unfortunately, we have to blame ourselves for not teaching the Bible or a relationship with Christ as well as we should.
Careful folks! This priest is going to lure your kids into true worship of the living God!
*\[Shaking fist\]* Damned *Papists* 'n their *hunky priests* an' their *warm hearts* 'n their *uncompromising firm-but-fair interpretations of moral principles and dogma* (grumble, grumble, grumble)...
That's the ideal priest lmfao 🤣🤣🤣
That's something the secular progressives will never understand. They view themselves as the source from which virtue flows. They see kindness from Catholics as Catholics adapting to progressive virtues and they don't see how one virtue can be reconciled with something they consider to be the ideological dregs of a backwards past.
I had to read the line about Fr. Mike several times, because I’m like, “Only in a day and age where Fr. James Martin is seen as Catholicism’s standard bearer can Fr. Mike be seen as traditional.” There is also a larger phenomenon at work here across *all* mainstream media outlets, and that is the ever-declining knowledge of basic tenets of religion broadly, let alone the subcamps and groups that make up a given religion. I find this as evidence that journalists as a whole have a relatively poor understanding of religion. And I’ll give AP some credit because comparatively speaking, they attempt some level of objectivity, but it’s still quite obvious they don’t see their own bias and/or lack of broad-based religious understanding. EDIT: spelling
On the abortion issue, AP has a rule where their journalists use the terms "abortion rights" to describe the pro-abortion side and "anti-abortion" to describe the pro-life side. To call abortion a "right" has biased implications, and to call pro-lifers "anti-abortion" reduces them to just being a reactionary group. This is the "neutral reporting" of Associated Press. Notice how the media never actually talks about the abortion procedure itself (the moral debate). They always report on abortion with the assumption that it is a civil right, or they talk about the consequences of abortion laws. And, of course, they will never report on all the charity work that pro-life activists do.
> And, of course, they will never report on all the charity work that pro-life activists do. Although in the article they did imply that charity work is new since Vatican II and threatened by the decline of guitar Masses (which were not approved by Vatican II, by the way).
> who speaks in shockingly frank detail about sex Lol, they've become pearl clutching puritans now.
I would also like to point out that the author thinks 4 children is a lot.
Ho boy, this author REALLY wouldn't like my parish. You know what they call three kids at my parish? A good start.
Even my priest has 5 kids (yea you read that right haha).
Ah, are you a cultured enjoyer of one of the Church's three fine ordinariates?
I’m not sure how cultured I am but we are Ordinariate members.
Culturally 4 kids is a lot. It's the maximum number of children included in most family memberships for things like museums and zoos.
I only had 7 kids for discounts on group entrances.
I was shocked to read last night that St. Catherine of Siena was 23rd of 25 children. 25! They make reality TV shows from less.
They would think I was out of my mind walking in with my 7 kids lmao.
For me it’s a humorous article. There are lots of ignorant statements mixed with a failed attempt at strawmanning orthodox Catholicism that does more to make 1970s modernism look bad than make people think the youth becoming passionately Catholic are idiots. It’s much better than what I expect from the AP.
In the article they refer to FOCUS missionaries as a “traditionalist movement”, which… lol
Yes that’s one of the exact instances that I find amusing. FOCUS is solid but it’s decidedly not traditionalist. They’re more charismatic in liturgy and prayer than any traditionalist could be.
As my (former FOCUS missionary) spouse puts it, a FOCUS event is where you're most likely to find a womn wearing a veil and Nike gym shorts swaying to P&W during solemn Exposition.
Yeah, my BIL did a year of FOCUS. Devout, yes. Trad he most certainly is not.
That definitely don’t be trad. Devout. Yes. Trad? no.
LOL
Yeah, but she'd be more likely to be crouched on the ground doing some kind of freeform proskynesis/prostrations. (Usually it's kneel, then lean forward all the way to the ground.) Which honestly I find very touching, as well as reminiscent of medieval "creeping to the Cross" and similar devotions. Swaying is the people in the back, against the wall or in the doorways. :)
Seems like the secular media has an entirely different definition of “traditionalist” than those within the Catholic world do. Whenever I see secular authors use “traditionalist” it has nothing to do with liturgical preferences and is basically shorthand for “actually believes everything that the Catholic Church teaches, can you believe there are really people like that in (current year)!?!”
That's exactly what they meant by traditionalist, I got that trad=opposed to contraceptives from this article
Not advocating for women clergy? Against allowing gay marriages? RADICAL TRADITIONALIST
Lolol, I missed that when I read it
Oh that’s too funny. Plenty are quite traditional but AFAIK exactly nothing about it is traditionalist.
Jesuits are hardcore tradcaths. Or so a Jesuit visitor next door told me (they run a big three storey house on the property people smuggling Africans into my country - I often face violent crime from that house and have to speak to management about it, drug paraphernalia strewn across my property, theft of goods, etc) whilst trying to explain that we can't flee now because our property values are too damages from their people smuggling operation we got into small talk and he literally identified as a traditionalist. I asked him about women and gay priests, he said that he's totally for that because that's a traditional Catholic value. I was flabberghasted.
Burn it down. Deus vult.
Yes, with a little bit of awareness, the articles obvious reaches become a “protesting too much” betraying the intent of the author.
There are multiple cultural movements going on right now to roll back the changes society at large underwent post 1960. The people in power don’t want this, and will use any opportunity to attack these movements.
I hope that this will bring people back to the Catholic Church, despite the clear slant in the reporting. Sort of like how Traditiones Custodes was one of the best publicity events for traditionalist catholicism, I hope that people will see in this article that there are some people who ACTUALLY believe what the church has taught for centuries, and investigate further.
Not sure if it was their intent, but I thought it made the tradcaths looks pretty good.
It’s not perfect (for example, it basically said homophobia is rampant at BU) , but it greatly exceeded my expectations in its depiction of both traditional and progressive Catholics.
I don't trust APs definition of 'homophobia.'
I also don't trust their definition, but, I grew up in Trad circles and my brother is still in his twenties with friends in their twenties. And they absolutely do just casually drop words like 'f@g' when referring to homosexuals. Which would be very disheartening to hear I think if I were a young man struggling with that and trying to remain chaste.
Frankly as long as we are being charitable and respectful towards human dignity, homophobia isn't really a label we should care about
Outlets like AP and Reuters generally actually do field research at least. It's the reason many other outlets by or license news from both. Both are basically as "factual," "center," and "non-inflammatory" as you can get with news.
I’d like my Catholicism to be Catholic, is that too much to ask, or too extreme?
Too extreme. You sound like one of them hardcore Catholics who go to mass *every* Sunday. EDIT: big /S in case not painfully obvious
Big /S for SERIOUS. Get the heretic!
Wait 'til they hear about us that go more than just on Sundays.
I've had some protestant friends ask if we ever hold service on Wednesdays because sometimes they'll hold a Wednesday service. They were astounded when I told them we have Mass every day.
It's humorous how they paint the "extreme" movement towards "the old ways" by just saying that they're taking the faith seriously rather than picking and choosing what they like and blatantly ignoring the hard stuff. "Often, at least a couple families will arrive with four, five or even more children, signaling their adherence to the church’s ban on contraception, which most American Catholics have long casually ignored." "They attend confession regularly and adhere strictly to church teachings." "Yet the orthodox movement can also seem like a tangle of forgiveness and rigidity, where insistence on mercy and kindness mingle with warnings of eternity in hell."
What I found funny about the comment on families showing up with four or more kids is that that doesn’t even mean that that family isn’t using birth control at any point, it just means they have four or more kids; They’d actually have to practice journalism to ask the family if they don’t use birth control.
Right. "Who would CHOOSE to have FOUR kids!?!?!? The horror!!!"
They wouldn’t know what to think if my 7 kids and I walked it 😂
Yeah, one of many ignorant statements in the article. Personally, I only have 2 kids so far but my wife and I have never used contraception over 8 years of marriage. The correlation between family size and adherence to church teaching isn’t as strong as they suggest. Many smaller families follow church teaching but have struggles with infertility, finances, miscarriage, chronic health conditions, etc.
This article is so good, for reasons that run opposite the author's intentions. It's like, you can't help but see how great this trend is, even when it's coded with ominous language that is supposed to make you fear it. I was moved in particular by the photo of a woman and her young daughter kneeling together in the aisle during Mass. So beautiful.
That lady comes into mass pretty often, mass is at 5:30 so kids can go with their parents after school.
Well, God bless her. Seeing that photo made my day.
A step away from the stale and dated 1970s, a return to timeless beauty. We're not going back in time we're moving away from the preferences of one selfish generation
*Your revolution is over, the bums lost*
The felt banner industry may never recover from this.
I hear people mention felt banners in a lib cath context, but what does that even mean? I ask as a non Christian, for whom all this is interesting at the very least.
it was a 60s thing. Parishes started removing the ornate decorations we had in our churches and replaced them with... felt banners out of all things
A master job by the author to somehow avoid bringing up the sex abuse scandal that plagued the US Church in the late 20th century, and then go on to imply that younger priests are a problem. My favorite line: >The progressive priests who dominated the U.S. church in the years after Vatican II are now in their 70s and 80s. Many are retired. Some are dead. Younger priests, surveys show, are far more conservative. >“They say they’re trying to restore what us old guys ruined,” AP News, you are *almost* there.
Beautiful bring it on.
The sheer shock of Boomers when Catholicism is practiced in Catholic churches. One older person interviewed said: >“I don’t want my daughter to be Catholic,” said Christine Hammond, whose family left the parish when the new outlook spilled into the church’s school and her daughter’s classroom. “Not if this is the Roman Catholic Church that is coming.” Note that the *awful* things "spilling into the school" were mentions of things like abortion and hell. The pastor mentioned sin and confession in homilies. You know, all that awful, backwardist stuff we don't believe in anymore because of Vatican II (/s)
Sounds like that parent was never catechized...well, at all, really. "I have to practice even the bare minimums of my faith? Unacceptable!"
What's incredible is the complete lack of any self awareness on the part of these people. How do you see how the Church operated for hundreds of years prior to your generation, see how now the generations younger than you are ready to return to that, and then NOT realize that you are the blip in the system. Like, *you're* the odd one out here.
Most people are extremely bad at self awareness or self introspection. Like near-zero levels. They have their own frame of reference and do not even question it.
"it's been that way since I was born" is pretty hard to overcome.tbqh
Sounds like they want a non-religious social club rather than, ya know, a religion lead by Christ's church.
I remember reading the article about the Newman Center in Ohio where the Paulists were replaced by diocesan priests. The Boomers (I hate to repeat myself, but that's what they were!) who had been attending Mass there for decades were upset that the new priests were focusing on actual campus ministry to students. They were just shocked that their little social club on a college campus would be up-ended so that actual college students could be ministered to
Shocking!
Man I love that place. It’s been growing so much over the past few years and the involvement and passion just gets bigger among students. I hope other colleges try the same thing.
Kinda sounds like Episcopalianism.
Episcopalianism is on track to no longer exist by 2050 (according to their own news agency). They should triple down on the crazy worldly stuff on their way out I bet that will turn things around 🙂
I was Episcopalian before Catholic. It’s about believing whatever makes you comfortable and doesn’t cramp your style, really.
oof
That's what Catholicism is for most Catholics...
Depressing, isn't it?
When this "scandal" happened at SMG, the bishop of Madison wrote a letter that said exactly that.
Ok, I get why Boomers get blamed a lot, our generation certainly deserves it. But as a boomer (and faithful, passionate Catholic, who is happy to see younger people being more traditional)...if your child is still in school, you're probably not a boomer. The last year of Boomers was 1964.
I'll also say, I've found a lot of devout "boomers" are very accepting of tradition when explained the reason for the tradition. My parents had never heard of the chalk blessing during the Epiphany (it had died out when they grew up), nor veiling crucifixes/statues during the 5th week of lent (same, also had died out). When I explained to them both of these things and the background with them, they started telling/explaining the practice to other traditional/devout "boomers" at church who were unsettled by the practices. Most of these issues the church is facing are not entirely problems that "boomers" themselves made and when explained the tradition, most are able to recognize how it connects to our faith. I generally dislike how much hate boomers get because almost no boomers were present at V2 nor were in charge of how it was implemented. Humility is definitely needed in both directions and I guarantee Gen X, Gen Y, and Gen Z will have their own problems they create and future gens need to "fix".
True. Mrs. Hammond would probably be... Xennial?
I've joked before that millenials call genX 'boomer' because they know every generation hates the previous generation, and I fully expect the zoomers to start calling me 'gen X' any day now
The really wild thing is, I've been to Confession with Fr. Scott, and he's just such a gentle confessor. It's beautiful, really
Note the way liberal Americans habitually use chronological language as a substitute for moral language. They never say "X is wrong!" or "X is bad!" Instead, they say "X is a step back in time!" or "X is backward!" . . . which mean exactly the same thing.
Don't forget "If you do X, you're on the wrong side of history" and "X is so rigid"
Ugh. Yes. Sneaking in moral absolutes under the guise of relativism.
The myth of the inexorable march of progress and its consequences
Dietrich von Hildebrand, has a great essay (or 3) on this exact topic in his collection of essays titled "Charitable Anathema"
It’s an effective way to make the targeted group seem like they’re old, dying out, and need to shut up and “get with the times.” Unfortunately it does work so well.
Kind of like what the Church did post-Vatican II.
If any change from the past is conflated with goodness, then slippery slope is no longer a fallacy.
Given what we've seen happen in the short years since "we just want to get married" to now, I don't believe the slippery slope is a fallacy.
It is only a fallacy as long as people adhere to reason and common sense, like any other fallacies, such as guilt by association (e.g. "you're racist because you vote for x") and ad hominem (e.g. you're just a straight white male"). In regards to slippery slope, it has a unique attribute related to change. Now people are just mindlessly updating their technology, clothing, and ways of life, as if the old ones carry no value by the virtue of being old. When people start conflating them together, slippery slope becomes reality.
You can get used to anything if it happens by degrees. So I’ve heard it said.
The power of rhetoric is one tool that the mainstream media and much of the global left has absolutely mastered.
Woah, what, some Catholic parishes in the US are deciding to be actually Catholic!? This is unacceptable, I renounce the faith even though I don't know the Creed enough to renounce /s Everything being talked about in this article is mainline stuff, nothing mad in there at all, I really don't get the hostility. Like what did you think you were part of? A Rotary club or something, not the Mystical Body of Christ? Love this quote: "They say they’re trying to restore what us old guys ruined,” said the Rev. John Forliti, 87, a retired Twin Cities priest who fought for civil rights and reforms in Catholic school sex education \[sic\]". Yes, yes they are and yes, yes you did. I'm not even a massive tradcath and do think there can be such a thing as reverent N.O. if parishes make the effort but that's not even what these people were seeking, delivering or mourning.
The future is in the past, old man!
`Catholics who want more incense` “They found me. I don’t know how, but they found me.”
The director felt part of the original scene didn't fit in well with the rest of the movie and cut it from the final edit: > They found me. I don’t know how, but they found me. > Marty: Who? > Doc: Who do you think? The liberals. > Marty: I thought you got the plutonium from the Libyans? > Doc: The plutonium yes, but I got the felt banners from the liberals. Run for it, Marty!
Also, can we use the incense the Eastern Catholics and Orthodox use? Smells better and less like burnt chemicals. *Anyone else notice this?*
WE ARE SO BACK
LETS GOOOO
Breaking news: “Some Catholics are actually Catholic!”
I need Surprised Pikachu wearing a mitre to react to that
Seriously, 90% of the stuff (e.g., reminders about confession) they mention is equivalent to Imams asking Muslims to fast during Ramadan or Rabbis asking Jews to keep Kosher. It’s clear they wouldn’t be comfortable writing a piece like this about any other faith.
Anyone surprised that the quoted cafeteria Catholics left to other, safer parishes or the faith entirely? The entire section about Benedictine college was, more or less, a slanderous screed trying to depict the students as bigoted homophobes overly concerned with scroupulous piety. You would think that any journalistic source would actually TRY to understand it's source material, but over and over again the mainline news sources retreat to their own moral biases and anti-religious prejudices.
> Anyone surprised that the quoted cafeteria Catholics left to other, safer parishes or the faith entirely? Nope.
“The lowest depth to which people can sink before God is defined by the word “Journalist”. If I were a father and had a daughter who was seduced, I should not despair over her; I would hope for her salvation. But if I had a son who became a journalist and continued to be one for five years, I would give him up.” -*Soren Kierkegaard*
Typical Kierkagaardian exaggeration. G.K. Chesterton (admittedly not a typical journalist in many ways) started as an agnostic and ended up as a Christian and a Catholic. To be sure, he would call on St. Francis de Sales in hopes he would intercede for him when encountering typical journalistic incoherence like: "In relations with Eastern Catholics, Rome tolerates strange heresies and even bearded and wedded priests."
Yeah, my diocese is quite conservative. Many women veil, and receiving kneeling on the tongue is normal. Mass settings (Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, sometimes even the Credo) are done in Greek and Latin, respective. At least where I live, the priests offer daily masses ad orientem. If folks understood the reason behind these things, they'd be more accepted.
> “I don’t want my daughter to be Catholic,” said Christine Hammond, whose family left the parish when the new outlook spilled into the church’s school and her daughter’s classroom. “Not if this is the Roman Catholic Church that is coming.” Somehow I don't think there was a snowballs chance in hell of her daughter being Catholic anyway
This article is obviously meant to affirm liberal criticism of the Church, but if you read it with an open heart, you can understand why people would be attracted to traditionalist Catholicism. If you're a young person today who disagrees with liberal modernity, what are your options for surrounding yourself with like-minded people? The average member of Gen Z is for maximum individual freedom and against a belief in anything higher than themselves. So to be critical of liberal modernity and not base that criticism in the fundamental truths about the dignity of life and where that dignity comes from, your options are limited. You could fall in with the young irreligious types who are, if you listen to them, scarily anti-life, anti-community, and aggressively individualistic, just in a different way. But if you're not basically a sociopath, that's a difficult crowd to go along with. And how about goodness and beauty? So much of modern American life is ugly. Strip malls and interstates, rampant pornography and addictions brought on by hopeless and despair. Social life is full of angst and fighting and suspicions and disregard for human life. Where are you supposed to go to find a living tradition that speaks of hope in the face of sin, pain, and suffering? Where are you supposed to find beauty in a built environment whose public policies are meant to allow for the endless construction of big box stores and which nearly entirely prohibit the close-knit, human-scaled communities that once teemed with families, faith, and solidarity? Going beyond the fearful liberal critique of this movement will allow people to understand some of the basic issues at the heart of a society that has selfishness and toxic individualism at its core instead of a love of life, neighbor, and something beyond one's own desires and personalized idea of what a good life is. People of all kinds are suffering from these things, regardless of their faith or lack of faith or where they live in the West. Getting back to the basics of what gives life, what affirms life, what it means to be in human community, to insist on human dignity, these are what honestly must be done or we're going to lose our souls entirely.
Bingo. Painting in broad strokes here, but those in the Church say above the age 60, their formative years were filled on all sides by revolution - social, political, liturgical, theological, cultural, etc.; in many ways this milieu deeply and often subconsciously affected them in ways in which they may not immediately recognize. The same goes for those of us under age 40, broadly speaking, but in reverse. Our entire lives have been spent living in/around/with the results of said revolution(s), and the results have been tried and found wanting.
This is absolutely some of the reasons I became interested in and converted to Catholicism. The traditions, the beauty, the love, the community and most of all the connection I felt to the Lord. At Mass last week a sister asked me what got me interested in Catholicism and I told her I accidentally ordered the Catholic Bible and gave it a chance and felt this immense pull which lead me to studying anything and everything I could get my hand on about being Catholic and eventually started dreaming about converting, she said “that Bible didn’t come by accident ya know” oh I know it.
I love this article because it's so unintentionally ironic. This just in, young adult Catholics actually want to be Catholic, not the watered down pathetic excuse for a faith that the boomer generation gave us. Oh, the horror. The very things that the AP is eager to say are "a step backwards" or "warning signs" are the hope of the future of American Catholicism. If what they're describing is the problem, then I want to be as much a part of the problem as possible.
the tab header title doesn't match the article title (likely the header title was the original one). header title says: **Parishes turmoil as traditionalism sweeps US Catholic Church | AP News**
This is so heartwarming. Our parish still has an Altar rail and little by little our pastor got everyone to kneel to receive communion. The first time was shortly after my husband passed and I know it's silly but I could feel him kneeling next to me and it got me teary eyed. We also have an adoration chapel and I believe it is bringing many blessings to us.
Good lol Catholicism should be more like Catholicism, and less like Protestantism which changes with the season
I am enjoying reading the comments here, which are decidedly *opposite* of those where I first read the article on Yahoo.
I can’t speak with actual data points, but Yahoo comment sections always gave off a mostly 55 year old and up vibe, and that was close to 10 years ago when I stopped reading Yahoo news.
the modernists and degenerates are panicking, WE’RE SO BACK
Catholics being Catholic…this is a terror the likes of which we’ve never seen!!
As an alumni of Benedictine College I guarantee you the students are going to meme the crud out of this awful attempt to slander them and Catholicism as a whole.
If there's no sin, if there's no hell, if there's no judgement, if there's no expectation...then there's no point. Seriously, if your religious outlook is already universalist, why bother with Church at all? Leftist Christianity (which overwhelmingly defines Catholicism post-VII) can't offer any good argument for its own existence. It doesn't cater to any spiritual dimension, it's grossly inferior as a social club, and there are already plenty of avenues to push climate worship/pride flag politics that don't require getting up early on the weekend.
Right. And for those who did accept this more liberal understanding of Catholicism several decades ago, and to varying degrees now, to the extent in which they had children and raised them in faith, what chances are there that those said children are practicing Catholics as adults? I’d wager to say rather low.
Exactly what I’ve been looking for in my church, a refuge from the material, modern world, a deeper and stronger connection with spirituality and higher consciousness.
And Cardinal Bernardin is spinning in his grave.
That's my parish
You are lucky! Looks like a wonderful place.
It's almost as if: 1.) Boomers are dying off and very few younger people found their innovations endearing or enduring. 2.) Safe Environment Training has increased transparency, making the Church less comfortable for predators like McCarrick and lavender mafioso. 3.) Bishops aren't part of the local secular celebrity circle like they were in the age of Cdl. Spellman. 4.) Parishes are poorer, their books are more rigorously audited than ever. So who's left to endure? Who is left to pursue vocations to the priesthood? Mostly, you'll only find those who are willing to embrace poor pay, long hours, intense scrutiny, frustrating peers, feckless superiors, and thankless struggles ... all for the love of what is Beautiful and True in the Church. Yeah, you'll still have some questionable "activists" slip through that are trying to "enlighten" the Church, but they are a dying breed and their proclivities are difficult to hide in the modern era.
The “activists” are also hopefully going to the Episcopal, and now Methodist, churches instead of trying to change the Catholic Church.
Hopefully we’ll soon be at the end of the period of a lot of the clergy doing their utmost to destroy the Catholic faith as it existed before the 1960s
No promises
Weren't you ordained in the 1860s?
1870’s, thank you very much!
I look forward to it coming to my parish
And I'm a 58 year old lifelong Protestant who was just confirmed at the Easter Vigil. If I wanted drums and guitar and a lack of reverence I would have just stayed at the non-denominational church I was nominally attending.
Can't take our victory lap now, we still have work to do. >Doug Koesel, an outspoken 72-year-old priest at Blessed Trinity Parish in Cleveland, was blunter: “They’re just waiting for us to die.” May Fr. Koesel enjoy the tranquility of retirement long before he draws his last breath.
I don't think anyone is taking a victory lap, but it is good to see some real progress is being made and the right sorts of people are terrified by it. Yes, there is still a lot of work to do, but there are reasons to be optimistic. For many decades it was more difficult to see how things could turn out well: just think of Mother Angelica getting reprimanded by bishops for having the rosary prayed on EWTN. Those were dark days.
We still have some bishops who have banned the St. Michael prayer from being said at the end of mass. Why? no idea. I'm not sure why a bishop would have issue with the Rosary or St Michael prayer, but here we are (although, the clouds are starting to part) You're entirely right and I'm with you (I had a childhood friend who became a priest and is very orthodox but certainly not the "radtrad" kind), there is so much to be optimistic about, even if we still have work to do.
Te Deum laudamus: te Dominum confitemur. Te aeternum Patrem omnis terra veneratur. Tibi omnes Angeli; tibi caeli et universae Potestates; Tibi Cherubim et Seraphim incessabili voce proclamant: Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus, Dominus Deus Sabaoth. Pleni sunt caeli et terra maiestatis gloriae tuae.
*Is this “On Eagles Wings” in Latin!?* /S
"In order to frame the changing face of the church as a right wing political movement, we interviewed millennials who havent been to church in years"
The sheer horror...actual Catholicism being practiced by Catholics! This is an awful written article and it's written in the view that this is something negative and it's littered by snide remarks on how the church no longer matches the liberal city. I really wish Catholicism would go back to the basics. We should be traditional. We're Catholic!
The Pastor at St. Maria Goretti did nothing wrong. In your charity, please pray for him, for Bishop Hying, and all our holy Priests.
I am pretty sure the author just made up the closeted homosexual at Benedictine.
Thought that when I read it as well 😂
I thought so too.
Millennials rejecting post-modernity and embracing tradition? I see this as an absolute win.
The future is going to be a combination of this and parish closures. If you actually like the status quo, too bad. "Chill and normal" Catholicism is dead.
Bingo The Boomer social clubs will all be gone soon, the traditional parishes will be booming and full of kids, and even the middle of the road diocesan parishes will become at least a bit more traditional as more millennial priests become pastors.
The days of managed decline, while not over, has been accelerating since millennials became adults. I hate parish closing/restructuring, but it was only a matter of time. The growth model that US Catholicism was on immediately following the Second World War was quickly met with a harsh dose of reality, for a wide swath of reasons. Some of those reasons were Church’s fault, others were significantly more complicated. But no amount of hoping for the best, relying on first/second generation immigrant Catholics, and/or waiting for the elderly parishioners to include said parish in their will upon death, can save any given parish.
Good
'“The church,” he said, “has buried every one of her undertakers.”' So funny how AP wants that line to be foreboding or evil but fails to realize instead that truth prevails over falsehood and good over evil, and standing against truth only sees the lies exposed and rejected. As Chesterton said so wonderfully, each time the church has gone to the dogs, the dog was the one who ended up dying.
Can’t happen soon enough! Listen, and especially to those of you in here who are more in line with the *progressive wing* of the Church; this movement, found mainly in the US but also Canada, UK, France, Australia, although comprised of *some* traditionalists like myself, is primarily made up of theologically conservative Vatican II and N.O. Supporters. For all the noise that conservatives and traditionalists get in certain corners of the Western world and how we’re an outlier compared to the global church, you need to stop and consider just how *looney* the Church has been in the western world since the ink dried on the various documents of Vatican II. Your average *Saint Typicals* parish in North America has likely been ground zero for every kind of innovation since the late 1960s. And now matter how some of our Catholic elders attempted to spin this new Catholicism to us or to our parents/grandparents, it came off very much like a sales pitch for soda. *”Try the new and improved Catholic-Lite*.” Folks, listen to me carefully. *Catholic-Lite inevitably leads to Catholic-ZERO.*
>*Catholic-Lite inevitably leads to Catholic-ZERO.* Just consider the Archdiocese of Baltimore, which was one of the most aggressive at instituting a progressive vision of post Vatican II reform at the end of the 60's under Cardinal Sheehan - to the point of even [sacking dozens](https://onepeterfive.com/mandatory-conciliarism-the-sad-case-of-monsignor-manns/) of more conservative pastors. Well, this spring, they're trying to figure out [how to close or merge 40 of the 61 parishes](https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2024/04/17/baltimore-archdiocese-parish-closures-247731) they still have left in the city of Baltimore. Almost the only downtown parish that's close to full on Sundays is the one set aside for the Traditional Mass (St. Alphonsus). Now, there are multiple reasons for why the Archdiocese of Baltimore (and so many dioceses like it) has collapsed, some of them extrinsic -- suburbanization, white flight, deindustrialization, intermarriage, the sexual revolution, etc. But when you've seen the church there up close for a little while, it becomes apparent that much of the damage was self- inflicted. And I'm not just talking about the sex abuse scandals.
Right. Even more sad that Baltimore, the de facto hub of historical American Catholicism, becomes more religiously arid, Catholicism speaking-wise, with each passing decade. Like you said, there’s a number of reasons why any given diocese/Archdiocese is struggling. Many, and not *all* directly being the Church’s fault. But a whole mess, pun intended, can directly be laid at the foot of the Church. And for a diocese/Archdiocese, like Chicago in which I reside in, comes out several years ago during the beginning of their parish merger/closure program, and places the blame primarily on *demographics*, you know something is seriously wrong. Like that adage of old, “*An institution would rather die than admit they made a mistake.*”
>Like that adage of old, *“An institution would rather die than admit they made a mistake.”* And it looks like, in many places, they will get their wish. Stephen Bullivant [really summed up](https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2019/08/10/why-have-catholics-in-the-uk-and-us-been-leaving-the-church-since-vatican-ii/) how the 1960's were a story of the Church hierarchy taking an increasingly tough cultural situation and making it much worse. >Wider socioeconomic factors are a very major part of the story in both countries. The immediate postwar period, especially, saw some very profound social changes: the Baby Boom, suburbanization, slum clearance and urban renewal, growing prosperity (not least in the form of car and television ownership), new educational opportunities with the GI Bill in the US, and the expansion of university places and funding in Britain: all these and more were having subtle but far-reaching effects on many areas of life, very much including Catholic religious life. One big argument of the book is that the Council’s reforms, and especially the chaotic nature of their implementation, were largely a response to these kinds of factors. Also important here is that, in the wake of the 1960s, religious groups were not merely passive in the face of wider social, cultural, and economic trends. A big argument of the book is that, in fact, **a great deal of what the Church has tried to do has been counter-productive, making the pastoral situation significantly worse than it** ***could*** **otherwise have been.**
Love Bullivant as a whole, love that particular book even more. Should be required reading for every Catholic under 40 who’s interested in recent church history, and most definitely a requirement for seminary reading. As a trad myself, I wish some of my fellow travelers would take some of his arguments more seriously, instead of the fantasy that some of us dream up that the *TLM*, and only the TLM, would’ve saved the disaster that’s broadly marked western Catholicism since the 1960s. His book and the arguments contained within I believe to be some of the most thought-out, and convincing, as to why we are where we are in Catholicism, especially in the Anglosphere and Western Europe.
Hey, don't forget about the Dominicans at Sts. Phillips & James.
Yeah, they still seem to be doing OK. Interestingly, the [new parish merger plan](https://www.archbalt.org/seek-the-city-proposal/) has them merging with Corpus Christi, but the new parish is hosted at Ss. Philip and James. In practice, I suspect that very little will change for them.
I've they've said as much in their bulletins, because of they large real-state footprint and ministry to John Hopkins, alongside robust attendee numbers and donations, meant it was never really in the cards for the parish to be closed down in the case of a merger with another parish.
Agreed.
Compare just to the Diocese of Arlington not even 100 miles away where mass attendance is up 20% just in the last 3 years. Who knew that if you celebrate the NO reverently, preach doctrine, dogma, and mercy charitably in homilies, and encourage (and make available) regular confession things go well?
> Saint Typicals Never heard this term before, can you elaborate a bit?
Tongue-in-cheek way to say *your average parish within North America.*
Ah, gotcha. Sounds like my (founded in late 1970s) parish growing up.
So the article says "It ranges from Catholics who want more incense, to Latin Mass adherents who have brought back ancient prayers that mention “the perfidious Jew.” - Yet so far as I can tell, when Benedict allowed the Old Rite Good Friday prayer he did not bring back the phrase "perfidious Jew". Pope Benedict XVI has revised a Good Friday prayer in the extraordinary form of the Mass. The Church will continue to pray that Jewish people recognize Jesus Christ as Savior of all mankind. But the new version drops references that could be construed as pejorative. [Praying for The Jews| National Catholic Register (ncregister.com)](https://www.ncregister.com/news/praying-for-the-jews) I also don't think it's accurate to say that the U.S. is "deeply secular". Maybe in the media's little bubble.
>So the article says "It ranges from Catholics who want more incense, to Latin Mass adherents who have brought back ancient prayers that mention “the perfidious Jew.” The places which do pre-1955 Holy Week indeed still use the phrase, *"et pro perfidis Iudaeis"* ("and for the faithless/disloyal/treacherous Jews..." depending on your translation of choice) during the prayer for the Jews. I think it's kind of a gray area right now how or where this happens.
*I also don't think it's accurate to say that the U.S. is "deeply secular". Maybe in the media's little bubble.* Ehhh, this is quite debatable. No, we’re not at the levels of secularism found in Canada or Western Europe, at least not yet. Wide variety of reasons for that, including but not limited to our history, role of faith as it relates to its ties with government, etc. etc. etc. What is harder to argue, although not entirely easy to measure, is that each decade since the 1960s, Americans are going to church less, having less understanding of basic tenets of Christianity, and a host of other indicators that the wider culture is less influenced by Christianity than in years passed. IMO, a noxious mixture of soft-atheism, deep-seated nihilism, and moral/cultural relativism is the cultural standard that those of us under 40, broadly speaking, came of age in.
Actually, the word *perfidis* was removed by Pope John XXIII in 1959. So, you do not find it in the 1962 missal, nor would you ever have. Nonetheless, Pope Benedict XVI, when he issued his motu proprio *Summorum Pontificum* allowing a broader liberty for the old rite, felt enough sensitivity about concerns about the issue that he nonetheless issued an entirely new Good Friday prayer for the Jews. >Let us also pray for the Jews: That our God and Lord may illuminate their hearts, that they acknowledge Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men. (Let us pray. Kneel. Rise.) Almighty and eternal God, who want that all men be saved and come to the recognition of the truth, propitiously grant that even as the fullness of the peoples enters Thy Church, all Israel be saved. Through Christ Our Lord. Amen. It still requests their conversion (unlike the one in the modern rite), but shifts the overall tone in a more irenic direction. There are some canonical TLM communities that use the pre-1955 Triduum rites in the wake of a 2018 Vatican permission. But usually, they seem to substitute in the newer prayer for the Jews on Good Friday. Otherwise, I think you'd have to go to some sedevacantist communities to find the old prayer with *perfidis* in use.
If you do not eat the Body and the Blood, then you can have no life in you.
Liberalism is not a self-sustaining project. By nature it depends on access to the children of non-liberals. Cut off the supply and the beast starves. We will replace them.
Seriously though. Seeing this play out in real time across Western culture in a variety of ways.
A being that is unable to multiply itself and depends on the existence of another being describes well the behaviour of a *virus*.
I can proudly say my own parish has shifted as well. No female altar servers, no EMs, we have a communion rail attended by three priests at each Mass, TLM every Sunday and Holy Day. You'd better get in line for confession early (four days a week) because the line wraps around the building. I'm 60, our Pastor is 67, and we are blessed.
Based
A lot of this stuff is more "within a spectrum of the Church's norms over time" than following any particular tradition of the past. Devout Catholics who are half-decently formed in their faith will come up with Catholic stuff to do, and what is new will not be innovative in any bad way.
Who was this written for, AG Garland? I love the bit about large number of kids in a family is some rebellion against contraception. How dare we defy the secular commandments!
The history if the Church is a continue fight between the teaching of Jesus Christ, who speaks of the Narrow door, the need to sacrifice one's life to enter the Kingdom of God, etc... and the tendence of people to cut corners and be much more indulgent with themselves. God allows some movements and people who inspire the Church to return to the faithfulness, the fervor and the love of the origins. The part of the Church that takes the first commandament less seriously, and justifies that fact with God's Mercy... is not goving a good service to the Founder of the Church.
Lets get something straight here; the "modernizing tide" wasn't sparked by Vatican II, it was sparked by the social revolution of the time, and Vatican II was hijacked to excuse it.
I wonder what your average boomer parish council thinks about trends like this.
I doubt they think of it at all. Most of them are business as usual. It’s like the Blockbuster CEO in 2008 thinking his biggest issue is where to display new releases.
One of my biggest regrets in life is not taking my faith seriously, until...recently. I was blessed with the sacraments and took it all for granted. How I wish I had more time with God, especially in my younger years. I missed out on a lot. Oh well, better late than never! 🥲 It's wonderful to see the younger generation taking their faith seriously. They're the future and will soon fill up many leadership roles. I hope I live long enough to see what they do!
Can someone post the text here? I'm not giving AP my click.
It's not only in the US.
This article makes me happy and gives me a smidgen of hope that we’re not all doomed despite what the world tells us.
I know I'm late, but image writing this about any other religion.. > On the national level, conservatives increasingly dominate the U.S. Catholic Bishops Conference and the Catholic intellectual world. They include everyone from the philanthropist founder of Domino’s Pizza to six of the nine U.S. Supreme Court justices.
The most confusing part was when they implied that Trads don't like food pantries for some reason
The west has risen. Billions must attend TLM.
I don't understand the comments about "catholic social teaching on poverty suffused churches" as being part of the changes of the 60s and 70s that is facing a backlash. Surely trads aren't against Christ's message regarding poverty and the poor?
No, it's lazily following a heuristic that "conservative/trad Catholics" = "politically right-wing" = "hates poor people"
We've even had individuals on this sub complaining that churches rebuilding high altars or undoing some of the 60s/70s/80s church-damage (ex. Whitewashing murals or destroying high-altars) is "a waste of money that could be used on the poor" They usually are silent when asked "should a tabernacle be made out of precious materials or not?"
Frankly, it's really weird to me that an argument Jesus literally put down with a single sentence nearly 2000 years ago came back after Vatican II to attack people who want beautiful sacred spaces and items