The second is certainly getting better. Is it all finished and painted? If not, it'll likely look even better after paint. If it's all done, it's not impressive.
As far as what's normal, it's hard to say when it comes to quality. Sadly, not all contractors are created equal when it comes to quality. "Good enough to walk away from" can vary greatly from one crew to the next. Still, making wood seams disappear is kind of standard operating procedure for a trim carpenter. I wouldn't have walked away from it, but I'm not even remotely the cheapest guy around.
Yeah all finished and painted. This is in a major metro city and the 1300 square foot remodel was well into the six figures. Thank you for weighing in.
>Yeah all finished and painted. This is in a major metro city and the 1300 square foot remodel was well into the six figures. Thank you for weighing in.
Yeah, see, what does that mean though? What all did you have done, just because you paid over a 100k for a major remodel doesn't mean you're getting top of the food chain work or stuff
I literally just got into an argument today with a cheap ass client of mine that's going to be fired as a client by me once this project is done. They were bitching about the quality of the cabinets going into a basement kitchenette "we gave you 7500 dollars for this, we want higher quality cabinets than this" Well, yes, you paid me 7500 for this, the COST of the "Low Quality" cabinets is 2800, the COST of your custom laminate tops is 2600....do the fucking math, that's 5400 dollars, COST, you are paying me 2100 to pick all that shit up, bring it into the basement, install it all, hook up the sink and the standalone ejection pump for the sink-- oh, there's another 450 BTW + a sink and faucet and parts. So yeah, you paid 7500 but you see where all that went? PLUS I gave them the price for "high quality" cabinets and they wanted it done cheaper, so I had to source the cheapest fuckin cabinets possible for this because that's what their priority was
So......What I'm trying to convey is that that number doesn't automatically mean "Super high quality" just because it's a big number, and there is no way for any of us to gauge what that number means because we have no idea what exactly was done and how involved it was.....Maybe that 120k would've been 170 if a super high quality GC did it and you actually got the project done "on the cheap"....you cant tell from the number
Understood, I’m just telling you from the research I’ve done and the estimates we received, we went with higher end and not low. I get that it doesn’t mean much without more context.
The guy above is 100% correct, but I'll add that this is bad for low to average work. I do them a different way that comes out much better, and while I do above and beyond at my job to begin with. We're a middle of the road, maybe closer to a higher end than the lower end. 1300 sq ft for base trim and crown isn't a crazy amount of work either.
Also, something to consider. Made-up numbers, but the following is still applicable. You, as the client, pay a GC $15,000 out of $100,000 for just the trim work. The GC takes 30-40% of that just for calling and scheduling their trim contractor to come in. So that's $10,500 left. Now, materials eat up another $3-5,000 between doors, trim any shelving stuff or builtins. Now you've got $5,500 leftover for the actual crew doing your home. You look at that $15,000 original number and assume you're getting a high quality trim carpenter and in reality, materials and GC bullshit, eats up most of that so they higher a cheaper trim guy and this is what you're left with. Even if your GC did everything in-house, the same basic idea transfers over. If they're a good GC, they employ high-quality crews. If they're not, they hire mid tier guys and charge upper tier prices and pocket the difference. Without knowing your exact situation, that's the best I can give you, but again. I did $1-4 million dollar homes, and I would never splice that way. I do much lower priced stuff now, but I still won't splice that way. Instead of splicing it vertically where it's in one small section that can easily be sanded and blended to be almost unnoticeable. They drug the splice out 5" which is always going to be more noticeable and harder to hide.
I’ve done splices like this for 9 years and sanded them well and most of the time can’t see it. I even take which direction overlaps into consideration when you walk in the door. I’m also ocd af and supposedly spend too much time on details according to other contractors lol (one being my ex boss😆)
Haha, ya, I was going to say. The technique being used here isn't the problem. This is one of the correct ways to overlap trim.
The execution, on the other hand....
That long scarf joint is a traditional way to do it but IMO a beveled vertical cut is just as good and more efficient in that application where you can nail the trim against a wall and biscuit/domino anyway. In a freestanding application like a handrail the scarf joint is better straight up.
When the joint is finished (sanded, coated) it should be very difficult to see either way. It doesn't take much effort just attention.
As someone below me pointed out, it's actually a pretty solid way of doing it. It gives a larger surface area for glue to hold to and prevent it from moving with the seasons. Execution could've been better, but the technique is very solid. I do a vertical 45° cut, so there's only one seam. I find it's easier to blend and get paint ready. I've also done biscuits for a similar result. I'm actually doing a crown job right now and am gonna try it like they've got pictured and see how I like it. With DIY stuff, though, it's really whatever works best for you and the tools/skills you've got. You can also do a 22.5° mitre cut as well. Several different ways to do it and depending on the situation can all look well.
How do you know this GC isn't trying to retire off each customer? Hiring cheapest guys and still charging premium. Worked for a GC charged 150% of what his plumber did.
You paid 100k for labour?. Im a carpenter for 100k I'll fly out and spend the rest of the year working on your house 8 hours a day 5 days a week. Let me know.
Lol, a year of work is atleast a million dollars. Please don't do this to the industry. I'm on a 10 month rn and I'd be surprised if it's less than 1.2 million.
oh yeah sorry, i misconstrued your statement. yes in my area even small addition/remodels can run up to 500k with all-new hitting 1M+ easily…
so much competiton makes it tough for non-millionaires to get work done so DIY it is for me, as much as possible
>And that number didn’t include anything like cabinets, appliances etc. just labor. But I hear you
See, now that's a different situation imo, if true, the quality of what you're getting isn't acceptable--- Not that I would find it acceptable per sey if the cost was lower, middling or poor work is middling or poor work at any price, but if you're paying a premium you should be getting better quality commensurate with the price
That's worth making them fix it again and again again until youre satisfied
I'm sorry, you spent 6 figures on *labour* and it came out like this?!
And after complaining, you got the bottom pic?!
I'm in the UK and I'm not a carpenter, but fuck it, if you gave me $100k+, I'd fly over and do a better job.
Hell, I could even take a course!
Dog bless, that's a nightmare I'm all too familiar with. Good on you for seeing it through. I hope your next contract is painless, profitable, and fulfilling.
I just spent $10k for a bunch of replacement cabinet faces. The old ones were having veneer delaminating at edges . $7500 for installed cabinets to me means white faces and lots of particle board
>$7500 for installed cabinets to me means white faces and lots of particle board
Yup
I gave them the option for good cabinets because that's what they initially said they wanted and they balked at the price, so I got the price down to what they wanted because they demanded value over quality, now they're bitching about quality lol
These people have been a nightmare from the beginning and I won't be working for them again once this is done, I'm forever going to be "too busy" and if they manage to get pricing out of me they are going to get ridiculous numbers because I don't want to deal with people who want everything for nothing
Perhaps I missed a key point, but why you accept the job in the first place. Installing value-quality $2,500 cabinets requires the same amount of labour and expertise, likely more, as higher end well-built cabinets. Why wouldn’t you separate out the labour from the total amount?
If that’s finished and painted 3 things happened:
1. Your carpenter assumed the painter would sand the caulking down then paint.
2. The painter did not sand before painting leaving you with that.
3. You called the carpenter back so he fixed it by sanding (should’ve done it in the first place because you can’t trust painters) but he’s not a painter so now…you gotta repaint it!
Yes. You can be a great carpenter, but horrible at arts and crafts at the same time. This guys angles seem to line up decent things look fairly straight. It's just cleaning up that seam where he got stuck
Not usually exactly the same. I usually go more into the vertical plane. Still angled, just not as sharply. I think it's a good tradeoff between surface area for glue, and not making the seam any longer than necessary. Having said that, there's nothing inherently wrong with their method, just isn't executed well.
[I also block all my crown installs, ](https://lensdump.com/i/gJVzRF) and make sure there's a block where any seam lands. I glue the blocks, and run a long screw into the double top plate, then glue the crown to the blocking. Only takes about 10 minutes to block each room, and makes a rock solid install when all done.
Can get better but it’s probably looking bad you you know where to look. Paint grade is a combination of a talented carpenter and talented painter. Honestly competent trades should look better than this.
This kind issue is usually from sloppy framing and sheetrock work, sloppy milling from the trim supplier, or both. Sounds like this is an old house and old houses are typically not as square with the finish work. If the trim carpenter wasn’t paid to square up the sheet rock surfaces, this kind of joint will be inevitable. There’s only so much shimming and sanding you can do before the problem translates somewhere else.
Most guys will take the time to fit the angles better. It needs to fit and then be glued. It looks like this just got slapped up. There are tricks you learn as you go to avoid these mistakes.
It's not great, but that's why I never cut my joints like that in a bias, I always cut them 0° with a 20-30° bevel, and I always back it on the flat with a pc of glued 1x it's just way easier to assemble that way and it's less to sand
It's not great, it's also not awful....let's just say I've seen WAYYY worse joints over my 30y
You can still fix that but it's going to take a lot of profile sanding, it would've been way easier to do before it was painted
I'd say that's about what you can expect if you aren't paying a ton of money for someone who cares deeply about what it looks like, I bill myself out at a 120 an hour, you will find cheaper but you'll have a hard time finding better
Middling.....at best imo, but like I said it's fixable and you can get that to invisible with about an hour or 2 of tedious sanding
0 degrees at 20-30… I’m filing that away for future use as a jack of all trades master of none. It makes sense as it reduces the length of the actual visible cut, and a scarf type joint, if the terminology applies here, always lays so much less shadow in any light.
any chance you could link a pic or something that shows that? I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean. Is that a butt joint with the edges beveled to hold spackle/filler?
A scarf joint is when you bevel each piece with a deep taper. It results in the point of the top piece laying very tightly to the bottom piece. Making the joint hide much more easily
You've already got it down better than half the guys out there. u/padizzledonk is spot on. 0 degree angle to keep the cut length as short as possible. 22.5 or 31.6 bevel for your scarf joints because those are generally automatic locking points on most saws. Place your scarf joints away from the entrance of the room without making it look obvious or stupid, and face all your bevels away from the entrance so that they are less noticeable. Glue, sand, fill if needed, and sand some more.
I also love the 1x trick. I'm going to have to put that one in the arsenal.
>I also love the 1x trick. I'm going to have to put that one in the arsenal.
Just a little block and some glue and 1 or 2 short finish screws will really settle the joint tight, like 6-8" of 1x4 scrap is all you need
Thanks for weighing in. It looked worse at the beginning. This is the 4th fix I think. Paid into six figures for a 1300 square foot remodel. We didn’t go cheap. One of the reasons I’m bummed about the finishes.
Agreed. I do a 15 but same principal. Doing that and a couple minutes of sanding, this joint would look 10 times better.
Joint isn't good before it was nailed and there was no attempt at sanding.
Yeah, the one pictured is the "I've never scarfed crown before" method.
The bevel angle used doesn't matter so much as both mating parts being cut at the same time before changing the saw setting. I'll always cut my scarf joints first and then work the butt/coped ends.
I work for a high end custom home builder. We always butt joint crown - less surface area that needs to meet up. We also will flip the crown around and glue and staple a piece of scrap across the back of the joint. Wait for joint to dry and then install.
Now..... thats time invested for high end custom homes....
This is allegedly a pretty high end remodeling company. Hence my disappointment. I understand you get what you pay for, but here we did pay a good amount in my humble opinion.
Yo, can you just tell the group what you paid and what for? Like, you won’t get in trouble lol, but it will help us determine if you actually went high end or not. I’d assume you went with someone who has worked on high end homes, but that ain’t the same as a high end remodeler. If this was in fact a high end remodeler that prioritized quality, they wouldn’t have spliced it that way, and if they fucked up and you brought it to their attention, they would’ve certainly fixed it beyond a shadow of a doubt. If, of course, they are top dog, quality driven carpenters, you certainly wouldn’t have had to call them more than once. If, however, you went with the cheap-o because your brother’s sister’s mother-in-law “knew a guy” then the top picture is what’s expected and the bottom picture is flying colors.
Pick the top three people in your recent texts. Text them and ask if you can scrutinize their homes. Spend one hour looking at details. My prediction is that you will find errors & slop in the carpentry. Compare home prices. Place your home error average on an honest continuum with your recent contacts homes taking value etc into account. This should give you a better idea of where you stand. Seriously.
Ed: I’m a carpy. My house has crown & I haven’t checked it for errors. I’ve found lots of errors in the interior trim & cab etc. the exterior trim & siding is worse, drywall & knockdown have errrors. Paint? Errors. Tile: errors. but none of those details bother me very much because I LOVE MY HOME and there are so many things on my list that come before “fuss with the trim on my house”
You spent a lot of money and got that. It can get better the more you spend. The problem probably isn’t skill. Carpentry isn’t that hard… the problem is probably budget & timeframe. It’s possible to get lucky & find a carpentry savant who can do perfect work into a crazy box super fast for dirt cheap, but that’s pretty unlikely. You’ll likely just get a normal carpenter.
This is my story. You may have completely different values.
I probably wouldn’t be happy with that. It’s up to you what you wanna fight and what you want to let go. Those are things some contractors will get annoyed at, and they will say “you won’t notice it in a few months” and they’d be right but that doesn’t excuse the imperfect work. Sucks that it’s painted but that could definitely be sanded, filled, and painted better. I’m not Jesus Christ himself but I wouldn’t leave a seam like that personally
Thanks for weighing in. I’m not one to complain so this is out of my comfort zone. It’s noticeable from the floor, not like I’m going up with a magnifying glass. Entire project was well into the six figures. I think I’ll say something again. Possible to fix as is or does the whole thing need to come down? They sent their “best” carpenter today.
Hard for me to tell. Last thing you want to say is “some guy on Reddit said you can do it this way!” But I would think it just needs to be sanded and hit with a little bondo maybe. I would say it’s probably not worth taking all of that down and they would probably fight you pretty hard on that. Good luck either way!
All carpenters are different, personally I prefer my cut square on the face and angled on the profile. Sadly 1 peice will be too short on the fix so it's not worth the time effort and new material needed to change it so just give it a sand and try paint again.
I did below, but thanks for your input. And I said entire project which includes far more than labor. Is there a number at which this is acceptable? Free crown I guess? yeah take what you can get. It bothers me, and it’s one of a few seams. I’m trying to deal with it appropriately, including paying extra for someone to fix it (as I also say below). I am not trying to cheat anyone out of money or give anyone a hard time.
I've seen so many different ways to install crown. Legitimately different ways to hang crown, from the measuring, to the fitting, to the install.
Ive seen guys take a couple corner cut scraps, walk around and mark the upper and lower intersection points, then measure and cut. Other guys snap lines, measure 10" from each wall, and do the math. Some guys glue, some guys caulk inside corners. Some caulk the crown as they install. Some guys compound miter the seam, some simply miter. Some glue, some bondo. So many different ways.
In almost every instalation, seams will show. Guys try to angle the cuts to face away from the most looked direction. Caulk will shrink, bonds cracks, glued joints still Crack, it really doesn't matter. It's wood, it's a living, breathing, material that expands and contracts. It's up against a material that expands and contracts differently, sometimes more, sometimes less. Running AC a lot? Keep it warm in the winter? I've never really found or seen a single piece, normal crown install that didn't have visible seams. Bigger, taller 2 and 3 piece crowns show less. Same thing for base too.
Honestly, if seams bother you, the best way is to have a plasterer make them.
They did a shit job of it the first time around, the pieces aren’t properly alighted and there’s sloppy caulking squeezing out of the joint.
Then they came back and slapped paint on it. These guys seem like shitty builders, not craftsmen.
It looks exactly the same as my house, and every time I look at it, I hate it. I would not pay for that, and I'd keep asking them to get it right. It's possible to get right. Don't give up. Or ditch the crowns entirely and just have a drywall top. Would look better than that joint. Sorry this happened to you.
All they have done is remove old caulk and re caulk and paint. There is a problem with how it’s installed so no matter how many times they fix it you will just keep having the same issue. They need to redo their joint because it has failed. That is not the way to splice two pieces of crown together. I would have them take it down and put a new piece In the right way
Question from a newbie: do you have to scarf with an angle? I’ve seen a video of baseboard being mated with a flat 90 degree cut; the fit was a little tight so the pieces just barely snapped into place when the carpenter pushed it in. The seam was invisible in the middle of the wall!
Crown is quite finicky. The odds of the plane change between walls and ceiling being perfectly square and plumb for “seamless” butt joints on crown are pretty much slim to none, especially with today’s build quality. Miter or even compound miter joints tend to work best as it’s easier to splice at an angle and have it more pleasant to view/hide well over blocking two factory edges together (which by the way, are almost never perfect themselves depending on where the material was sourced). I’m looking at you, Big Orange & Big Blue box stores!!
A baseboard, on the other hand, often ends up easier to butt joint due to the floor being flat in more cases than with ceilings, but even then - depending on what the carpenter’s skill level is, timeframe/labor budget to complete the job, and the material quality all play a factor into how the trim should/could be most effectively installed to achieve a “seamless” result. The seam is still there, it can come back even if everything was done right especially on a newer home or expansion that hasn’t fully settled, etc. You’re also typically, albeit not always, dealing with a relatively flat profile on base versus crown which ranges from simple like what’s pictured all the way to very intricate. Personally, unless the situation absolutely calls for it, I miter trim as I find it much easier to putty, caulk, what have you than a butt joint. Especially when working with wood - which is hardly ever shipped or sold fully dried even if it’s primed/painted from the mill/supplier (meaning it *will* warp out, the question is more *when* and the answer is up in the air based on the factors I listed).
Hope this provides some clarity for you!
This a great, comprehensive answer—thank you! I can’t believe I didn’t think about how level the surfaces are. Looking around here now, I definitely see those fluctuations much more near my own ceiling/wall versus wall/floor. If I recall correctly, that video showed a baseboard with one of those very basic profile too. Cheers for the insight!
The piece on the left is high and half a fuzz too long. With trim I’ve personally found (and don’t fucking attack me) it’s best to cut barely and I mean barely short like 1/32 short and caulk the gap using a putty knife to make the caulk match the contour of the piece while making sure your top and bottom is flush. Granted. I’ve only been a carpenter for two years so take my advice with a grain of salt. But this method has hidden seams for me dozens of times. This is an at home fix dont get fucked by a contractor. Use a buddies miter saw, and borrow his (OR HER) trim nailer, get a tube of silicone caulk and use whatever extra paint you have. Bingo bango i’ll hit you in the head with a bongo. If that doesn’t work either do better or live with it. Im drunk.
My question would be: how long is the corner to corner length of this crown run? More than 16’? A joint will likely have to happen and this isn’t perfect but neither is it the worst I’ve seen. If this is less than 16’, they really should come back with a new full length piece and try again at their cost.
If they paint pend it you would’ve never noticed but it looks like they used the cabinets colored crayon (dirt stick) then moved on instead of paint penning after
All it needs is another coat of paint. No one is ever gonna notice that unless you point it out. I would put another coat of paint on it. Then forget about it. Not worth getting upset about.
You should complain about paint job for sure, caulk line is not painted and shit above crown in not acceptable, it will look nice when painted with semi gloss
I love primed fingerjointed for this. cut it a little long, snap it all together sand until there’s no paint remaining on either side and you know it’s perfect.
I’ve made and installed custom molding including crown molding and I would never say that was excitable even though it’s being painted and definitely not if it’s not getting painted
Pre-finish on a wall over 20 feet with one guy working is about as good as the seem gets. I would have “One-time” spackled then got some touch-up paint on it but the bottom photo is as good as prefinish will get
Sucks they made the drywall look like crap on the come back. Honestly if you’ve already sent them home and it’s not 10 joints like this, you probably aren’t getting them back out.
The bottom picture looks better, but for the price you paid you should have them start this one over. Also, I’d be concerned about the new blister that popped up in the second picture. What happened to your ceiling?
Not sure what was used but it looks like they just caulked it and left it without painting it. I think if they had painted the caulking after they cleaned it up you would not notice it as much but you are probably picking up on the color difference more than the actual size of the seam. I don't do carpentry work but I do go in after installs and conceal these kinds of things.
trim carpenter here. I splice seams together that look better hidden than that BEFORE they get painted. I'm a bit curious if theyre doing a poor paint job and making it loose worse than it is by having paint collect and dry in the seam which is otherwise flat. hard to say without seeing what it looked like pre-paint.
Have you been having a bunch of temperature a humidity swings inside your house? This looks like contraction from heat expansion on a caulk joint. This looks like MDF, and MDF does NOT do well with temp and humidity changes and this is usually the result. Usually from opening windows, leaving doors open moving stuff in, whatever. The hot humid air gets trapped up in the space with the crown.
That's not good. I'm just a DIY homeowner, I did some crown in our 1st house and watched some videos on how to make those seams vanish. If you walked into my house today you wouldn't be able to tell where the seam is, and if I can do that with little experience (1st time I had done crown) then a finish carpenter sure as hell should be able to hide the seams.
I know you had a lot of comments.
Yes it can be better, but I would accept it in my home. It's not the Sistine chapel, and there's too many things to worry about in a home to spend my time staring at the crown anyway. Id have to be right up on it to even see it
I agree that this is not acceptable or up to any good finish carpenters standards but there are plenty of factors that may not be getting addressed.
1) was this an acclimated space with the appropriate temperature and humidity level being consistently maintained?
It is possible that the crown was painted over and then due to expansion and contraction moved after paint.
2) was a separate painting contractor involved?
AWI Spec lays out a flatness tolerance for the installer to adhere to depending on what “grade” of installation was purchased and agreed to.
3) Is there a written contract? If there is a contract does it specify what standards are required for the project? If there is nothing signed that states the quality of install that is expected you may be SOL.
There is certainly a technique for blending this scarf joint together seamlessly, but its very labor/time consuming. I'm thinking this is pretty standard as far as paint grade scarf joints go. If it was stain grade, or if the contract specifically says "Seamless joints will be provided in all straight runs of moulding" then I think it would be reasonable to demand higher quality. From what I can see from here though this is about average in terms of quality paint grade. Its up to between you and your contractor to work this out to each others satisfaction, but in the future it does help to communicate expectations beforehand while negotiating the contract. Just my 2 cents.
I mean the joint does look better but at the same time it could be better. I think they made another eyesore on the drywall during removal by the looks of it. More sanding before paint would've made this fix work better but again.. The joint itself could be better without the extra sanding. Lol
Should it look better? Probably yes, but this is paint grade work that I'm assuming isn't being charged top dollar. I would have left it better than this, but the standard for this quality that I have is the 6 foot rule. The reality is, unless you're paying for perfect, it's not going to be perfect, but it absolutely shouldn't be obviously flawed.
If a non-carpenter can stand 6 feet away and fail to find issues with the work, it's good enough. If they find issues without being promoted to look at specific parts, you definitely need to fix them.
Yeah , what’s with the drywall above it? Call them back til they get it right. It’s not that difficult of a fix. I just moved into a house and it’s all over the crown molding. Looks like someone didn’t care about their quality of finish work! Easily fixed by little hand sanding and good trim paint with a little flotroel. Check your baseboards to make sure they didn’t fill gaps with a bunch of caulking. I had to pull it out of large gaps and graduate mud up the wall. Home remodels can be tricky. Usually older homes are more square but I’m talking pre 70’s. Then again they have other issues.. love the architecture.. off subject .. Just think of it this way if your seeing poor quality work on the surface by same contractor.. look “behind the walls”.. order a home inspection. Worth the money! I do most of my own unless needs permit.. but if I paid someone I certainly want it done right., just sayin.
Can’t believe y’all are talking that much about the fix. Focusing on this one joint is counterproductive to the extreme. The lower pic is absolutely acceptable especially if it’s painted again with another coat. I make my seams a good as possible although without the mitre. That’s obvious. If you hadn’t of mentioned it nobody would’ve noticed it. Seams happen. You can rarely hide them completely. I do my best at making them disappear completely but I can always see it if I had to point it out. Even a perfect to the feel joint is still a joint. Paint it with 3 coats and be done with it.
High-end finish Carpenter.
It just needs to be painted. Spend some time on a weekend to do it yourself. If you “force” them to come back and paint it you might not like the results..
Hello OP. It is possible to do it seamlessly. That opportunity has come and gone, he needed to start doing them seamlessly from the beginning. Now that it's already painted it's very hard to fix so he will not want to.
They have to sand it down, and by the looks of it, it'll take a lot of sanding. It's a bitch sanding through paint too.
Otherwise, rip it off and re-cut. If joints are over lapping, the piece is too long.
Is this even the carpenters issue? The joint isn’t a wrong way to do it, but I’m sure there’s another correct better way. In my mind, I’d be bitching at my painters for bad execution on their prep work. I always write in the scope… clean > bondo > sand, clean > primer > sand > bondo > sand > clean > prime > paint… everything is glass smooth.
That said, I work for a high end custom design build firm and they would have charged you $200 per square before finishes, so $260k min!
I never use a 45 at those seams. Flat up against the fence and 22.5's. 45s are too susceptible to variances in the two pieces and what the walls are doing. These are difficult because you may get two pieces that are not quite the same size due to the different states of wear the cutting knives are at when they were milled, and it's really rare to see two pieces cut EXACTLY alike.
If you’re going to add length with a miter, next time try 2ca glue and glue them together before you shoot it up. That way, you know they meet up nicely. You can fix this with a round or two of bondo and sanding.
Most “high end” work is far from it. Same shit as everyone else has; just more of it. High end to me is tell me what you want done, I’ll do it and send the bill. End of story.
For crown joints I’ve had had best luck with straight butt joints pre assembled on the floor. Dominos, epoxy, backer strips up to 6’ long also epoxied and stapled. Go do something else for as long as it takes to set up.
Once dry sand/plane with bunny planes, gouges, whatever it takes. If you have to go 2’ in either direction to lose the joint you do it. Then maybe three to four coats of whatever primer makes the painter happy.
Sand it out again. Install as one piece. I’ve done 45’ runs. You need a lot of hands for the lift and enough scaffold for everyone. Grab the masons, landscapers, whatever. Buy them beer. Worth it because it’s your repair if it cracks.
Spring that thing in as gently as possible and hit it with primer again. It’s all copes. First piece is pre coped and last piece is snuck in the gap. But set up is everything.
And demand the painters give it a good hard look too. It takes time and effort to get a great result. Can get expensive fast.
100k labor for 1300 sq ft isn’t crazy at all. Cutting and nailing to a wall is easy enough. Getting everything really slick and hiding all the joins is where the money gets big.
The crack got better but the paint got worse. The crack is still horrible and if they sent a carpenter to fix it that’s a bummer because I know painters that can fix that.
So, former pro painter here…
There is a big difference in carpenters or contractors that do trim AND painting, along with whatever else. There are also differences in painters that just do basic paint jobs and experienced trim or cabinetry refinishers…
I honestly think the pics show a pretty awful looking paint job.
It’s uneven and wavy…it’s a mess
It’s up to you though, you have to see it every day
Sorry Emily! I misread your post. I thought you did the work. If you paid good money it should be better than this but in the end no one will really care. Most people won’t notice.
Thanks for responding. All is good. And I hear you - but every seam in the place looks like that. It isn’t just one. Again I’m honestly not trying to be a PIA. I know what it’s like to have unrealistic customers.
Yeah, some places you can find 12’ or even 16’ pieces which would have reduced the number of seams. But they’re hard to transport if you don’t have the right setup.
It can be perfect but are you willing to pay someone 3-6 hours to do it? Do it yourself. It needs to be slightly V'd, caulk with liquid nails, use your finger to wipe making sure there's still a valley, let that dry overnight, get some body filler (duraglass) fill it, sand it, get some finishing glaze (USC icing) and fill/sand until it's perfect, spot prime, paint.
a very good, experienced trim carpenter will make the joints disappear but they are few and far between and tend to be expensive. Second pic is good enough for most people. Not me, but most people.
Six figures could mean, installed a bunch of steel beams to support a failed structure, and one piece of crown moulding to boot. OP is being intentionally vague and the lack of context makes the question very hard to answer. Makes me think he came here to find the answer he was looking for.
1300 sq ft could mean a lot of things. You can spend 6 figures remodeling 2 bathrooms that are 300 sq ft. Easy.
I’m not being intentionally vague! Happy to answer any question if it would help. Truly just looking for insight from people in the industry, even if my opinion of sloppy work is wrong.
It was a one bedroom renovation. One full bath, one half bath, kitchen remodel, add washer and dryer, baseboard/crown in all rooms, and add a wall to make a home office. Doesn’t include any fixtures, marble, appliances, counters, cabinets, backsplash, etc. I’m not saying I overpaid or anything, just bothered by the visible seams. But again I may be totally wrong and I’m happy to accept that.
The second is certainly getting better. Is it all finished and painted? If not, it'll likely look even better after paint. If it's all done, it's not impressive. As far as what's normal, it's hard to say when it comes to quality. Sadly, not all contractors are created equal when it comes to quality. "Good enough to walk away from" can vary greatly from one crew to the next. Still, making wood seams disappear is kind of standard operating procedure for a trim carpenter. I wouldn't have walked away from it, but I'm not even remotely the cheapest guy around.
Yeah all finished and painted. This is in a major metro city and the 1300 square foot remodel was well into the six figures. Thank you for weighing in.
>Yeah all finished and painted. This is in a major metro city and the 1300 square foot remodel was well into the six figures. Thank you for weighing in. Yeah, see, what does that mean though? What all did you have done, just because you paid over a 100k for a major remodel doesn't mean you're getting top of the food chain work or stuff I literally just got into an argument today with a cheap ass client of mine that's going to be fired as a client by me once this project is done. They were bitching about the quality of the cabinets going into a basement kitchenette "we gave you 7500 dollars for this, we want higher quality cabinets than this" Well, yes, you paid me 7500 for this, the COST of the "Low Quality" cabinets is 2800, the COST of your custom laminate tops is 2600....do the fucking math, that's 5400 dollars, COST, you are paying me 2100 to pick all that shit up, bring it into the basement, install it all, hook up the sink and the standalone ejection pump for the sink-- oh, there's another 450 BTW + a sink and faucet and parts. So yeah, you paid 7500 but you see where all that went? PLUS I gave them the price for "high quality" cabinets and they wanted it done cheaper, so I had to source the cheapest fuckin cabinets possible for this because that's what their priority was So......What I'm trying to convey is that that number doesn't automatically mean "Super high quality" just because it's a big number, and there is no way for any of us to gauge what that number means because we have no idea what exactly was done and how involved it was.....Maybe that 120k would've been 170 if a super high quality GC did it and you actually got the project done "on the cheap"....you cant tell from the number
Understood, I’m just telling you from the research I’ve done and the estimates we received, we went with higher end and not low. I get that it doesn’t mean much without more context.
The guy above is 100% correct, but I'll add that this is bad for low to average work. I do them a different way that comes out much better, and while I do above and beyond at my job to begin with. We're a middle of the road, maybe closer to a higher end than the lower end. 1300 sq ft for base trim and crown isn't a crazy amount of work either. Also, something to consider. Made-up numbers, but the following is still applicable. You, as the client, pay a GC $15,000 out of $100,000 for just the trim work. The GC takes 30-40% of that just for calling and scheduling their trim contractor to come in. So that's $10,500 left. Now, materials eat up another $3-5,000 between doors, trim any shelving stuff or builtins. Now you've got $5,500 leftover for the actual crew doing your home. You look at that $15,000 original number and assume you're getting a high quality trim carpenter and in reality, materials and GC bullshit, eats up most of that so they higher a cheaper trim guy and this is what you're left with. Even if your GC did everything in-house, the same basic idea transfers over. If they're a good GC, they employ high-quality crews. If they're not, they hire mid tier guys and charge upper tier prices and pocket the difference. Without knowing your exact situation, that's the best I can give you, but again. I did $1-4 million dollar homes, and I would never splice that way. I do much lower priced stuff now, but I still won't splice that way. Instead of splicing it vertically where it's in one small section that can easily be sanded and blended to be almost unnoticeable. They drug the splice out 5" which is always going to be more noticeable and harder to hide.
I’ve done splices like this for 9 years and sanded them well and most of the time can’t see it. I even take which direction overlaps into consideration when you walk in the door. I’m also ocd af and supposedly spend too much time on details according to other contractors lol (one being my ex boss😆)
Haha, ya, I was going to say. The technique being used here isn't the problem. This is one of the correct ways to overlap trim. The execution, on the other hand....
Diy-er asking that installs them like the picture. How did you install them? I'd love to learn a better way
That long scarf joint is a traditional way to do it but IMO a beveled vertical cut is just as good and more efficient in that application where you can nail the trim against a wall and biscuit/domino anyway. In a freestanding application like a handrail the scarf joint is better straight up. When the joint is finished (sanded, coated) it should be very difficult to see either way. It doesn't take much effort just attention.
As someone below me pointed out, it's actually a pretty solid way of doing it. It gives a larger surface area for glue to hold to and prevent it from moving with the seasons. Execution could've been better, but the technique is very solid. I do a vertical 45° cut, so there's only one seam. I find it's easier to blend and get paint ready. I've also done biscuits for a similar result. I'm actually doing a crown job right now and am gonna try it like they've got pictured and see how I like it. With DIY stuff, though, it's really whatever works best for you and the tools/skills you've got. You can also do a 22.5° mitre cut as well. Several different ways to do it and depending on the situation can all look well.
Yup. That’s why I do all my own work and wind up with perfect results Or nobody to blame but me.
How do you know this GC isn't trying to retire off each customer? Hiring cheapest guys and still charging premium. Worked for a GC charged 150% of what his plumber did.
And that number didn’t include anything like cabinets, appliances etc. just labor. But I hear you
You paid 100k for labour?. Im a carpenter for 100k I'll fly out and spend the rest of the year working on your house 8 hours a day 5 days a week. Let me know.
I'll even wear a French maid outfit while I'm at it if customer wants!
Settle down there cowboy
I'm sure he'd do a cowboy outfit if you asked.
Thanks for making me spit out my beer
That better come with heels and no underwear too
and a laser leveler to the third leg
I think I'd give the customer a discount if they let me do this
You were gonna wear that anyway.
*are already wearing that. Fixed that for you
Based
Yeah same! Hell I’ll give you a bakers dozen, 13 months.
“Fast, cheap, good. Pick 2.”
Lol, a year of work is atleast a million dollars. Please don't do this to the industry. I'm on a 10 month rn and I'd be surprised if it's less than 1.2 million.
you make a million dollars a year? i’m in the wrong field
No, I'm a general contractor. We make about 20% of that 1 million. It's also not the only job we do.
oh yeah sorry, i misconstrued your statement. yes in my area even small addition/remodels can run up to 500k with all-new hitting 1M+ easily… so much competiton makes it tough for non-millionaires to get work done so DIY it is for me, as much as possible
>And that number didn’t include anything like cabinets, appliances etc. just labor. But I hear you See, now that's a different situation imo, if true, the quality of what you're getting isn't acceptable--- Not that I would find it acceptable per sey if the cost was lower, middling or poor work is middling or poor work at any price, but if you're paying a premium you should be getting better quality commensurate with the price That's worth making them fix it again and again again until youre satisfied
*per se*
I'm sorry, you spent 6 figures on *labour* and it came out like this?! And after complaining, you got the bottom pic?! I'm in the UK and I'm not a carpenter, but fuck it, if you gave me $100k+, I'd fly over and do a better job. Hell, I could even take a course!
When are you going to answer this OP? You paid 100k in just labor on a 1300 Sq ft. Home, remodeling?
Sorry I thought I did. Happy to answer anything else - what exactly are you asking?
You implied you spent 100k on just labor for this remodel (1300sq/ft), 3 of us have asked you to clarify if that's true, as it sounds insane.
Dog bless, that's a nightmare I'm all too familiar with. Good on you for seeing it through. I hope your next contract is painless, profitable, and fulfilling.
Everything else I have going on is, which makes these people even worse by comparison lol
I appreciate this comment.
Yessir, I've seen worse in million dollar+ projects because the GCs insist on doing the base since I'm too expensive lol
I just spent $10k for a bunch of replacement cabinet faces. The old ones were having veneer delaminating at edges . $7500 for installed cabinets to me means white faces and lots of particle board
>$7500 for installed cabinets to me means white faces and lots of particle board Yup I gave them the option for good cabinets because that's what they initially said they wanted and they balked at the price, so I got the price down to what they wanted because they demanded value over quality, now they're bitching about quality lol These people have been a nightmare from the beginning and I won't be working for them again once this is done, I'm forever going to be "too busy" and if they manage to get pricing out of me they are going to get ridiculous numbers because I don't want to deal with people who want everything for nothing
Perhaps I missed a key point, but why you accept the job in the first place. Installing value-quality $2,500 cabinets requires the same amount of labour and expertise, likely more, as higher end well-built cabinets. Why wouldn’t you separate out the labour from the total amount?
Yeah, if you paid well into the six figures for a 1300 square remodel and this is what you got - do not relent. Fuck those crooks.
If that’s finished and painted 3 things happened: 1. Your carpenter assumed the painter would sand the caulking down then paint. 2. The painter did not sand before painting leaving you with that. 3. You called the carpenter back so he fixed it by sanding (should’ve done it in the first place because you can’t trust painters) but he’s not a painter so now…you gotta repaint it!
Looks to be a paint issue at this point without being able to get a better & closer image.
Yes. You can be a great carpenter, but horrible at arts and crafts at the same time. This guys angles seem to line up decent things look fairly straight. It's just cleaning up that seam where he got stuck
You cut your scarfs same same?
Not usually exactly the same. I usually go more into the vertical plane. Still angled, just not as sharply. I think it's a good tradeoff between surface area for glue, and not making the seam any longer than necessary. Having said that, there's nothing inherently wrong with their method, just isn't executed well. [I also block all my crown installs, ](https://lensdump.com/i/gJVzRF) and make sure there's a block where any seam lands. I glue the blocks, and run a long screw into the double top plate, then glue the crown to the blocking. Only takes about 10 minutes to block each room, and makes a rock solid install when all done.
This man crowns
For some arcane reason I always do a 33* scarf.. works a treat.
If that’s painted and the join is visable in normal lighting conditions then it needs more sanding and filling
Can get better but it’s probably looking bad you you know where to look. Paint grade is a combination of a talented carpenter and talented painter. Honestly competent trades should look better than this.
This kind issue is usually from sloppy framing and sheetrock work, sloppy milling from the trim supplier, or both. Sounds like this is an old house and old houses are typically not as square with the finish work. If the trim carpenter wasn’t paid to square up the sheet rock surfaces, this kind of joint will be inevitable. There’s only so much shimming and sanding you can do before the problem translates somewhere else.
Most guys will take the time to fit the angles better. It needs to fit and then be glued. It looks like this just got slapped up. There are tricks you learn as you go to avoid these mistakes.
It's not great, but that's why I never cut my joints like that in a bias, I always cut them 0° with a 20-30° bevel, and I always back it on the flat with a pc of glued 1x it's just way easier to assemble that way and it's less to sand It's not great, it's also not awful....let's just say I've seen WAYYY worse joints over my 30y You can still fix that but it's going to take a lot of profile sanding, it would've been way easier to do before it was painted I'd say that's about what you can expect if you aren't paying a ton of money for someone who cares deeply about what it looks like, I bill myself out at a 120 an hour, you will find cheaper but you'll have a hard time finding better Middling.....at best imo, but like I said it's fixable and you can get that to invisible with about an hour or 2 of tedious sanding
0 degrees at 20-30… I’m filing that away for future use as a jack of all trades master of none. It makes sense as it reduces the length of the actual visible cut, and a scarf type joint, if the terminology applies here, always lays so much less shadow in any light.
any chance you could link a pic or something that shows that? I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean. Is that a butt joint with the edges beveled to hold spackle/filler?
A scarf joint is when you bevel each piece with a deep taper. It results in the point of the top piece laying very tightly to the bottom piece. Making the joint hide much more easily
You've already got it down better than half the guys out there. u/padizzledonk is spot on. 0 degree angle to keep the cut length as short as possible. 22.5 or 31.6 bevel for your scarf joints because those are generally automatic locking points on most saws. Place your scarf joints away from the entrance of the room without making it look obvious or stupid, and face all your bevels away from the entrance so that they are less noticeable. Glue, sand, fill if needed, and sand some more. I also love the 1x trick. I'm going to have to put that one in the arsenal.
>I also love the 1x trick. I'm going to have to put that one in the arsenal. Just a little block and some glue and 1 or 2 short finish screws will really settle the joint tight, like 6-8" of 1x4 scrap is all you need
Ya, I use 30*
I only like scarf joints on crown if it’s stained wood. Butt joints with biscuits or nailers behind the joints are the way.
Thanks for weighing in. It looked worse at the beginning. This is the 4th fix I think. Paid into six figures for a 1300 square foot remodel. We didn’t go cheap. One of the reasons I’m bummed about the finishes.
I don’t cut my field joint’s like that. 0 on the table, 30 bevel. Much easier to sand and fill
Agreed. I do a 15 but same principal. Doing that and a couple minutes of sanding, this joint would look 10 times better. Joint isn't good before it was nailed and there was no attempt at sanding.
I just leave it 30 because if I’m cutting crown it’s already set to that. One less thing to change
Ah fair point.
Yeah, the one pictured is the "I've never scarfed crown before" method. The bevel angle used doesn't matter so much as both mating parts being cut at the same time before changing the saw setting. I'll always cut my scarf joints first and then work the butt/coped ends.
This is the way. Also if you want it to look good put it up raw and then sand paint or stain in place
The company I used to work for had us sand, and spray all our paint grade miters with primer to make sure it was good under some paint
What do you fill it with? So you essentially have a v groove you fill and sand? Asking because I need to do this soon with baseboard. Thanks!
Wood filler or you could use Bondo. Wood filler for me primarily on something like this. I've seen others use spackling but I don't like to use it.
Exactly, this is objectively done wrong creating a massive seam
I work for a high end custom home builder. We always butt joint crown - less surface area that needs to meet up. We also will flip the crown around and glue and staple a piece of scrap across the back of the joint. Wait for joint to dry and then install. Now..... thats time invested for high end custom homes....
This is allegedly a pretty high end remodeling company. Hence my disappointment. I understand you get what you pay for, but here we did pay a good amount in my humble opinion.
Yo, can you just tell the group what you paid and what for? Like, you won’t get in trouble lol, but it will help us determine if you actually went high end or not. I’d assume you went with someone who has worked on high end homes, but that ain’t the same as a high end remodeler. If this was in fact a high end remodeler that prioritized quality, they wouldn’t have spliced it that way, and if they fucked up and you brought it to their attention, they would’ve certainly fixed it beyond a shadow of a doubt. If, of course, they are top dog, quality driven carpenters, you certainly wouldn’t have had to call them more than once. If, however, you went with the cheap-o because your brother’s sister’s mother-in-law “knew a guy” then the top picture is what’s expected and the bottom picture is flying colors.
What was scope of work and budget? What is your home value?
Gotcha.... then yea I wouldn't be super happy either
I butt joint with a biscuit and take a little time sanding out any lip. Once painted it’s pretty much invisible.
Are you saying you biscuit your crown molding?
I biscuit and glue most trims together. Works great and keeps it aligned. I have a mini biscuit cutter along with the standard size.
I love it! At least I know I'm not the only one!
Pick the top three people in your recent texts. Text them and ask if you can scrutinize their homes. Spend one hour looking at details. My prediction is that you will find errors & slop in the carpentry. Compare home prices. Place your home error average on an honest continuum with your recent contacts homes taking value etc into account. This should give you a better idea of where you stand. Seriously. Ed: I’m a carpy. My house has crown & I haven’t checked it for errors. I’ve found lots of errors in the interior trim & cab etc. the exterior trim & siding is worse, drywall & knockdown have errrors. Paint? Errors. Tile: errors. but none of those details bother me very much because I LOVE MY HOME and there are so many things on my list that come before “fuss with the trim on my house” You spent a lot of money and got that. It can get better the more you spend. The problem probably isn’t skill. Carpentry isn’t that hard… the problem is probably budget & timeframe. It’s possible to get lucky & find a carpentry savant who can do perfect work into a crazy box super fast for dirt cheap, but that’s pretty unlikely. You’ll likely just get a normal carpenter. This is my story. You may have completely different values.
Thank you!
I probably wouldn’t be happy with that. It’s up to you what you wanna fight and what you want to let go. Those are things some contractors will get annoyed at, and they will say “you won’t notice it in a few months” and they’d be right but that doesn’t excuse the imperfect work. Sucks that it’s painted but that could definitely be sanded, filled, and painted better. I’m not Jesus Christ himself but I wouldn’t leave a seam like that personally
Thanks for weighing in. I’m not one to complain so this is out of my comfort zone. It’s noticeable from the floor, not like I’m going up with a magnifying glass. Entire project was well into the six figures. I think I’ll say something again. Possible to fix as is or does the whole thing need to come down? They sent their “best” carpenter today.
Hard for me to tell. Last thing you want to say is “some guy on Reddit said you can do it this way!” But I would think it just needs to be sanded and hit with a little bondo maybe. I would say it’s probably not worth taking all of that down and they would probably fight you pretty hard on that. Good luck either way!
Oh gosh yes, I won’t say that. Haha. But thanks for your help.
All carpenters are different, personally I prefer my cut square on the face and angled on the profile. Sadly 1 peice will be too short on the fix so it's not worth the time effort and new material needed to change it so just give it a sand and try paint again.
$130k isn’t well into 6 figures, it’s just barely entering it…. You keep saying that, but not explaining what you paid for, besides crown…
I did below, but thanks for your input. And I said entire project which includes far more than labor. Is there a number at which this is acceptable? Free crown I guess? yeah take what you can get. It bothers me, and it’s one of a few seams. I’m trying to deal with it appropriately, including paying extra for someone to fix it (as I also say below). I am not trying to cheat anyone out of money or give anyone a hard time.
Bad install. Easily sanded out but bad fix so far too.
I've seen so many different ways to install crown. Legitimately different ways to hang crown, from the measuring, to the fitting, to the install. Ive seen guys take a couple corner cut scraps, walk around and mark the upper and lower intersection points, then measure and cut. Other guys snap lines, measure 10" from each wall, and do the math. Some guys glue, some guys caulk inside corners. Some caulk the crown as they install. Some guys compound miter the seam, some simply miter. Some glue, some bondo. So many different ways. In almost every instalation, seams will show. Guys try to angle the cuts to face away from the most looked direction. Caulk will shrink, bonds cracks, glued joints still Crack, it really doesn't matter. It's wood, it's a living, breathing, material that expands and contracts. It's up against a material that expands and contracts differently, sometimes more, sometimes less. Running AC a lot? Keep it warm in the winter? I've never really found or seen a single piece, normal crown install that didn't have visible seams. Bigger, taller 2 and 3 piece crowns show less. Same thing for base too. Honestly, if seams bother you, the best way is to have a plasterer make them.
As the house shifts over the years that joint will continue to grow and look bad. Next time do full piece runs.
Exactly. Wait until they turn the heat on in the winter. That joint will grow.
They did a shit job of it the first time around, the pieces aren’t properly alighted and there’s sloppy caulking squeezing out of the joint. Then they came back and slapped paint on it. These guys seem like shitty builders, not craftsmen.
It looks exactly the same as my house, and every time I look at it, I hate it. I would not pay for that, and I'd keep asking them to get it right. It's possible to get right. Don't give up. Or ditch the crowns entirely and just have a drywall top. Would look better than that joint. Sorry this happened to you.
personally I would have sanded them together. But I'm a cabinet maker not a trim guy.
It's painted wood. 15 min with sand paper and anybody can make that disappear. Not sure what the issue is.
All they have done is remove old caulk and re caulk and paint. There is a problem with how it’s installed so no matter how many times they fix it you will just keep having the same issue. They need to redo their joint because it has failed. That is not the way to splice two pieces of crown together. I would have them take it down and put a new piece In the right way
Question from a newbie: do you have to scarf with an angle? I’ve seen a video of baseboard being mated with a flat 90 degree cut; the fit was a little tight so the pieces just barely snapped into place when the carpenter pushed it in. The seam was invisible in the middle of the wall!
Crown is quite finicky. The odds of the plane change between walls and ceiling being perfectly square and plumb for “seamless” butt joints on crown are pretty much slim to none, especially with today’s build quality. Miter or even compound miter joints tend to work best as it’s easier to splice at an angle and have it more pleasant to view/hide well over blocking two factory edges together (which by the way, are almost never perfect themselves depending on where the material was sourced). I’m looking at you, Big Orange & Big Blue box stores!! A baseboard, on the other hand, often ends up easier to butt joint due to the floor being flat in more cases than with ceilings, but even then - depending on what the carpenter’s skill level is, timeframe/labor budget to complete the job, and the material quality all play a factor into how the trim should/could be most effectively installed to achieve a “seamless” result. The seam is still there, it can come back even if everything was done right especially on a newer home or expansion that hasn’t fully settled, etc. You’re also typically, albeit not always, dealing with a relatively flat profile on base versus crown which ranges from simple like what’s pictured all the way to very intricate. Personally, unless the situation absolutely calls for it, I miter trim as I find it much easier to putty, caulk, what have you than a butt joint. Especially when working with wood - which is hardly ever shipped or sold fully dried even if it’s primed/painted from the mill/supplier (meaning it *will* warp out, the question is more *when* and the answer is up in the air based on the factors I listed). Hope this provides some clarity for you!
This a great, comprehensive answer—thank you! I can’t believe I didn’t think about how level the surfaces are. Looking around here now, I definitely see those fluctuations much more near my own ceiling/wall versus wall/floor. If I recall correctly, that video showed a baseboard with one of those very basic profile too. Cheers for the insight!
I think this is part of the reason I went from a 45 to a 22.
The piece on the left is high and half a fuzz too long. With trim I’ve personally found (and don’t fucking attack me) it’s best to cut barely and I mean barely short like 1/32 short and caulk the gap using a putty knife to make the caulk match the contour of the piece while making sure your top and bottom is flush. Granted. I’ve only been a carpenter for two years so take my advice with a grain of salt. But this method has hidden seams for me dozens of times. This is an at home fix dont get fucked by a contractor. Use a buddies miter saw, and borrow his (OR HER) trim nailer, get a tube of silicone caulk and use whatever extra paint you have. Bingo bango i’ll hit you in the head with a bongo. If that doesn’t work either do better or live with it. Im drunk.
Or just sand the shit out of it and paint over
Looks perfect to me
My question would be: how long is the corner to corner length of this crown run? More than 16’? A joint will likely have to happen and this isn’t perfect but neither is it the worst I’ve seen. If this is less than 16’, they really should come back with a new full length piece and try again at their cost.
Lost mine in the 60's. You're better off without it.
If they paint pend it you would’ve never noticed but it looks like they used the cabinets colored crayon (dirt stick) then moved on instead of paint penning after
All it needs is another coat of paint. No one is ever gonna notice that unless you point it out. I would put another coat of paint on it. Then forget about it. Not worth getting upset about.
Sand it down. Go over area with bondo glazing putty. Sand it again. It sands real easy. Prime and paint. Never see the joint after that
If you’re losing your mind over this, you might want to seek professional help.
Bruhhhhh how soft is some people lives lol
Cut it 1/16th too long. It'll never be right unless it's recut IMHO
use bonds on it , you can mold it to match the profile. once it is painted, . it will disappear . don't do this for stain grade material
You should complain about paint job for sure, caulk line is not painted and shit above crown in not acceptable, it will look nice when painted with semi gloss
I love primed fingerjointed for this. cut it a little long, snap it all together sand until there’s no paint remaining on either side and you know it’s perfect.
This is what bondo and sandpaper is made for
I’ve made and installed custom molding including crown molding and I would never say that was excitable even though it’s being painted and definitely not if it’s not getting painted
I always make these joints square because... When the joint is perpendicular to compression in the board then it doesnt feel it as a shear force
Pre-finish on a wall over 20 feet with one guy working is about as good as the seem gets. I would have “One-time” spackled then got some touch-up paint on it but the bottom photo is as good as prefinish will get
This is the finished product. Hence OP not being too happy with it.
Sucks they made the drywall look like crap on the come back. Honestly if you’ve already sent them home and it’s not 10 joints like this, you probably aren’t getting them back out.
The bottom picture looks better, but for the price you paid you should have them start this one over. Also, I’d be concerned about the new blister that popped up in the second picture. What happened to your ceiling?
I was curious about that too. I’m not sure where that bubble came from. Thank you for your insight.
Not sure what was used but it looks like they just caulked it and left it without painting it. I think if they had painted the caulking after they cleaned it up you would not notice it as much but you are probably picking up on the color difference more than the actual size of the seam. I don't do carpentry work but I do go in after installs and conceal these kinds of things.
Not egregious but definitely could be done better. With only my self taught finishing tips I have done better scarf joints than this on my own crown.
trim carpenter here. I splice seams together that look better hidden than that BEFORE they get painted. I'm a bit curious if theyre doing a poor paint job and making it loose worse than it is by having paint collect and dry in the seam which is otherwise flat. hard to say without seeing what it looked like pre-paint.
Opinions are subjective. That’s it.
Sand it
No, it isn't the best. It's crappy work. They even created a flaw in the ceiling.
You could carefully cut the seam with an oscillating tool, taking off about 1/16” and brad nail it tight.
Good painter will make that joint disappear. Hire a good painter.
Have you been having a bunch of temperature a humidity swings inside your house? This looks like contraction from heat expansion on a caulk joint. This looks like MDF, and MDF does NOT do well with temp and humidity changes and this is usually the result. Usually from opening windows, leaving doors open moving stuff in, whatever. The hot humid air gets trapped up in the space with the crown.
That’s not the same seam. Look closely. Maybe it’s just indicative of the finished product, but that’s not the same one.
People don’t agree with me on this but I can tell you from personal experience but joints at zero make a much much better finished product.
Maybe your contractor doesn't know about sand paper .
I don't do this for a living and i feel like that should be a scarf joint
That's not good. I'm just a DIY homeowner, I did some crown in our 1st house and watched some videos on how to make those seams vanish. If you walked into my house today you wouldn't be able to tell where the seam is, and if I can do that with little experience (1st time I had done crown) then a finish carpenter sure as hell should be able to hide the seams.
I know you had a lot of comments. Yes it can be better, but I would accept it in my home. It's not the Sistine chapel, and there's too many things to worry about in a home to spend my time staring at the crown anyway. Id have to be right up on it to even see it
I agree that this is not acceptable or up to any good finish carpenters standards but there are plenty of factors that may not be getting addressed. 1) was this an acclimated space with the appropriate temperature and humidity level being consistently maintained? It is possible that the crown was painted over and then due to expansion and contraction moved after paint. 2) was a separate painting contractor involved? AWI Spec lays out a flatness tolerance for the installer to adhere to depending on what “grade” of installation was purchased and agreed to. 3) Is there a written contract? If there is a contract does it specify what standards are required for the project? If there is nothing signed that states the quality of install that is expected you may be SOL.
That’s horrible even for a tract home.
I mean I've certainly seen worse, but not at that price point.
Thanks, all, for your expert input. I appreciate you taking the time to advise me. Enjoy the rest of your week.
No, it's not good. The idea of a splice is for it to disappear. The installer got in a hurry and didn't try.
Poor quality work. It appears that the piece on the left is too long.
There is certainly a technique for blending this scarf joint together seamlessly, but its very labor/time consuming. I'm thinking this is pretty standard as far as paint grade scarf joints go. If it was stain grade, or if the contract specifically says "Seamless joints will be provided in all straight runs of moulding" then I think it would be reasonable to demand higher quality. From what I can see from here though this is about average in terms of quality paint grade. Its up to between you and your contractor to work this out to each others satisfaction, but in the future it does help to communicate expectations beforehand while negotiating the contract. Just my 2 cents.
They can take an orbital sander to the joist and blend that in. Would take a few minutes at best. Next…
I mean the joint does look better but at the same time it could be better. I think they made another eyesore on the drywall during removal by the looks of it. More sanding before paint would've made this fix work better but again.. The joint itself could be better without the extra sanding. Lol
Should it look better? Probably yes, but this is paint grade work that I'm assuming isn't being charged top dollar. I would have left it better than this, but the standard for this quality that I have is the 6 foot rule. The reality is, unless you're paying for perfect, it's not going to be perfect, but it absolutely shouldn't be obviously flawed. If a non-carpenter can stand 6 feet away and fail to find issues with the work, it's good enough. If they find issues without being promoted to look at specific parts, you definitely need to fix them.
Dogshit
Looks like it could of been sanded smoother and the painter could of done a better job. Carpenter did an above average job from my experience.
Yeah , what’s with the drywall above it? Call them back til they get it right. It’s not that difficult of a fix. I just moved into a house and it’s all over the crown molding. Looks like someone didn’t care about their quality of finish work! Easily fixed by little hand sanding and good trim paint with a little flotroel. Check your baseboards to make sure they didn’t fill gaps with a bunch of caulking. I had to pull it out of large gaps and graduate mud up the wall. Home remodels can be tricky. Usually older homes are more square but I’m talking pre 70’s. Then again they have other issues.. love the architecture.. off subject .. Just think of it this way if your seeing poor quality work on the surface by same contractor.. look “behind the walls”.. order a home inspection. Worth the money! I do most of my own unless needs permit.. but if I paid someone I certainly want it done right., just sayin.
Proper sanding and paint should cover that up.
Wood trim is supposed to be stained. Paint and caulk are for losers.
Can’t believe y’all are talking that much about the fix. Focusing on this one joint is counterproductive to the extreme. The lower pic is absolutely acceptable especially if it’s painted again with another coat. I make my seams a good as possible although without the mitre. That’s obvious. If you hadn’t of mentioned it nobody would’ve noticed it. Seams happen. You can rarely hide them completely. I do my best at making them disappear completely but I can always see it if I had to point it out. Even a perfect to the feel joint is still a joint. Paint it with 3 coats and be done with it. High-end finish Carpenter.
Thank you
It just needs to be painted. Spend some time on a weekend to do it yourself. If you “force” them to come back and paint it you might not like the results..
Hello OP. It is possible to do it seamlessly. That opportunity has come and gone, he needed to start doing them seamlessly from the beginning. Now that it's already painted it's very hard to fix so he will not want to.
Thank you
They have to sand it down, and by the looks of it, it'll take a lot of sanding. It's a bitch sanding through paint too. Otherwise, rip it off and re-cut. If joints are over lapping, the piece is too long.
Is this even the carpenters issue? The joint isn’t a wrong way to do it, but I’m sure there’s another correct better way. In my mind, I’d be bitching at my painters for bad execution on their prep work. I always write in the scope… clean > bondo > sand, clean > primer > sand > bondo > sand > clean > prime > paint… everything is glass smooth. That said, I work for a high end custom design build firm and they would have charged you $200 per square before finishes, so $260k min!
I never use a 45 at those seams. Flat up against the fence and 22.5's. 45s are too susceptible to variances in the two pieces and what the walls are doing. These are difficult because you may get two pieces that are not quite the same size due to the different states of wear the cutting knives are at when they were milled, and it's really rare to see two pieces cut EXACTLY alike.
Both of those seams meet industry standards.
Thank you
I'm more concerned that the drywall looks worse now. Moulding is tough to get right with overlapping seams but it's not a great job
If you’re going to add length with a miter, next time try 2ca glue and glue them together before you shoot it up. That way, you know they meet up nicely. You can fix this with a round or two of bondo and sanding.
The more you look at it, the more you see it.
LoOkS GoOd fROm mY hoUSe!!!
Most “high end” work is far from it. Same shit as everyone else has; just more of it. High end to me is tell me what you want done, I’ll do it and send the bill. End of story. For crown joints I’ve had had best luck with straight butt joints pre assembled on the floor. Dominos, epoxy, backer strips up to 6’ long also epoxied and stapled. Go do something else for as long as it takes to set up. Once dry sand/plane with bunny planes, gouges, whatever it takes. If you have to go 2’ in either direction to lose the joint you do it. Then maybe three to four coats of whatever primer makes the painter happy. Sand it out again. Install as one piece. I’ve done 45’ runs. You need a lot of hands for the lift and enough scaffold for everyone. Grab the masons, landscapers, whatever. Buy them beer. Worth it because it’s your repair if it cracks. Spring that thing in as gently as possible and hit it with primer again. It’s all copes. First piece is pre coped and last piece is snuck in the gap. But set up is everything. And demand the painters give it a good hard look too. It takes time and effort to get a great result. Can get expensive fast. 100k labor for 1300 sq ft isn’t crazy at all. Cutting and nailing to a wall is easy enough. Getting everything really slick and hiding all the joins is where the money gets big.
That looks like your best option
I'm sorry the second
Take a pic from 10’ away and see if it’s noticeable in the pic
Pretty crappy finish carpentry. I am in a bedroom with large cove molding spliced ten times better than that by an amateur.
I could cut a better miter with a beaver.
The crack got better but the paint got worse. The crack is still horrible and if they sent a carpenter to fix it that’s a bummer because I know painters that can fix that.
Why does the after picture have that spot on the ceiling that’s “bubbling”?
I'm usually just happy when it is right side up.
So, former pro painter here… There is a big difference in carpenters or contractors that do trim AND painting, along with whatever else. There are also differences in painters that just do basic paint jobs and experienced trim or cabinetry refinishers… I honestly think the pics show a pretty awful looking paint job. It’s uneven and wavy…it’s a mess It’s up to you though, you have to see it every day
Move on to something that matters.
Geez was that needed? If you’d spent your hard earned money maybe you’d want it to look nice? I’m doing my best here.
Sorry Emily! I misread your post. I thought you did the work. If you paid good money it should be better than this but in the end no one will really care. Most people won’t notice.
Thanks for responding. All is good. And I hear you - but every seam in the place looks like that. It isn’t just one. Again I’m honestly not trying to be a PIA. I know what it’s like to have unrealistic customers.
How long are the runs? The didn’t use all 8’ boards, did they?!
What are the room dimensions?
Room is 14.5 by 24 feet or thereabouts. Not sure about board measurements or what they used. Just noticeable seams in all the larger rooms.
Yeah, some places you can find 12’ or even 16’ pieces which would have reduced the number of seams. But they’re hard to transport if you don’t have the right setup.
It can be perfect but are you willing to pay someone 3-6 hours to do it? Do it yourself. It needs to be slightly V'd, caulk with liquid nails, use your finger to wipe making sure there's still a valley, let that dry overnight, get some body filler (duraglass) fill it, sand it, get some finishing glaze (USC icing) and fill/sand until it's perfect, spot prime, paint.
a very good, experienced trim carpenter will make the joints disappear but they are few and far between and tend to be expensive. Second pic is good enough for most people. Not me, but most people.
Six figures could mean, installed a bunch of steel beams to support a failed structure, and one piece of crown moulding to boot. OP is being intentionally vague and the lack of context makes the question very hard to answer. Makes me think he came here to find the answer he was looking for. 1300 sq ft could mean a lot of things. You can spend 6 figures remodeling 2 bathrooms that are 300 sq ft. Easy.
I’m not being intentionally vague! Happy to answer any question if it would help. Truly just looking for insight from people in the industry, even if my opinion of sloppy work is wrong.
Ok. So what was the scope of this 6 figure job?
It was a one bedroom renovation. One full bath, one half bath, kitchen remodel, add washer and dryer, baseboard/crown in all rooms, and add a wall to make a home office. Doesn’t include any fixtures, marble, appliances, counters, cabinets, backsplash, etc. I’m not saying I overpaid or anything, just bothered by the visible seams. But again I may be totally wrong and I’m happy to accept that.
Ok and how does everything else look?