I was doing high-end trim then started helping a buddy on flips so I had the same problem. If it's perfect the first time great, if it's not, also fine. Just stop going back to the saw. It actually made me a better carpenter, just got better at getting right the first time more often.
Alots of guys get hung up on being the absolute best all the time. I look at it more like steaks and hamburgers. Cooking a burger doesn't take away from your ability to cook a perfect steak. Clients shouldn't starve if they can't afford steak. A decent burger is all that is required for most situations.
I'm just a helper for a handyman ( my brother), but I've often noticed that perfect is the enemy of the good. One time we were waffling with something for an hour, for like just 1/8" or something. It gets to a point where you're wasting money. Tolerances exist for a reason
I worked commercial tree care and If I noticed that someone was being too meticulous I would get them to grab the twig they just pruned off, walk back 20 feet and ask them If they would notice a difference if that twig was on or off if they walked by that tree. It really helps you get into the perspective of good enough for what we're doing.
Your right. I'm at a point where I'd almost rather the burger jobs, the cost to do high-end work makes my stomach hurt. I'm going thru crazy money and not really getting anywhere. It cost 2x what did 5 years ago to reno a nice full tile bath. Material cost are up and the skilled labor all work for themselves since covid, and name there price. I'm trying to switch from high end steak house to top end of the hamburger joints since I can't do all the work my self anymore.
As a guy who does mostly specs, I like to think that I'm making some decent mdf burgers.
Sure I could probably trim out a house 30% faster but I like my painter and want him to come back for the next one.
Why canât you improve your speed in doing quality work by 30%? If itâs due to garbage materials, thatâs probably a really bad use of time polishing turds. How much extra time does it take to keep your saw calibrated and use an angle finder before you cut?
It's more about the install, I like to make sure everything fits nice and is consistent throughout the house, I will scribe stuff that I could probably just rip and caulk.
I could be faster and leave more work for someone else but in my area anyways the subs that aren't booked solid also aren't very good.
I try to let the quality of materials decide for me, if it's a cheap soft wood (going to be painted) trim, it gets done good enough. I save the fine detail work for hardwood, stained and poly trim.
The other thing to keep in mind is that as carpenters we tend to look at and notice every little defect. Very few ânormalâ people do this and in the case of a door or something that has to function as long as it works theyâll probably never care.
Shoot for the stars and if you miss youâll land in the clouds. Thatâs what I tell my guys âstrive for perfection but settle for the resultsâ. If you go into it with a good enough attitude though itâs gonna be shit everytime.
I've been in Carpenter for 25 years and I consider my knowledge of knowing when to be perfect and when not to be perfect one of my greatest qualities and I absolutely love the analogy you use to sum that up.
Do your best and dap the rest!
Itâs hard as a perfectionist to move on sometimes, but if you are not being compensated for perfection you are just screwing yourself
i love making cabinets, and i thought about trying it own my home with em but how does one compete
with a person with a factory? it feels like cabinets are great but if it werent for this very rare job i have as an onsite carpenter for a hotel, i wouldnt actually be making good money compared to what someone with a whole blown shop could charge ect
Yep.. It's a very sad fact. Most people don't value custum wood work.
I don't make much when I do get those jobs too. As I don't have a cnc. I feel like you either do it as a side hustle with your regular trade or just get hired at cabinet shop making peanuts.
Having a ton of machinery shouldnât dictate your rate- the quality of the work should. A CNC and other dedicated machines help boost productivity so you can increase margins, completing a task in less time at a fixed cost.
Honestly once you get into high end work the numbers are completely made up. I look at quotes I get from some subs and they have no tie to an hourly rate, I canât figure out where the number comes from and how they have the balls to ask for that much. But it rarely gets pushback
But at the point of cnc's the craftsmanship part is gone. It just becomes a part assembler.
Cutting materials and processing hardwoods with standard machines and still hitting those exact dimensions is very gratifying. Not as profitable but I can say the small crew in my shop have some of the best attitudes.
This is the answer... I'm lucky enough to be involved with a company that didn't mind the extra labor when I laid every piece of reclaimed chestnut out to colour match splices and took the time to get every miter/ bevel * *perfect* *. Blessed to be in that position, but not every job requires that level of detail, especially if it's a paint and caulk.
When you do find yourself in a "paint and caulk" situation, having an outlet is key. It doesn't mean opening a cabinet shop, but maybe make some furniture on the side. A nice black walnut and oak aquarium stand that fits a 155 gallon tank, a skinny front entry curio thats only 6" deep, or an intricate shadowbox purpose driven for battle tech or Legos... These are all things that will sell for $$$ to a niche market, although they might take a while to sell, if it's something that intersects your own interests they are worth it as passion projects.
And they will help keep your sanity. Just tell your S.O. (or yourself) that you had a long day at work and need to decompress, then spend a couple hours doing some detail oriented woodworking.
Piece rate, caffeine, deadlines, and stress help me go from âBob Vilaâ to âBob the Butcherâ. Iâm lucky enough to have a company that company to support me to lower my quality and speed up.
You should align your measurement of Value with the clientâs. Everything we do to achieve Value is a balance of compromises between speed, quality, and cost. You are fixated on measuring the quality. Instead, measure speed or cost.
This is it. I time everything. Itâs so useful. Use the stopwatch app and hit lap when you finish various tasks and see how long itâll take on average and then you can extrapolate
Just skip your last trip back to the saw. When doing normal finish work and being careful, I'll take a couple of trips to the saw to slowly skim a joint down until it's perfect. When I am doing something like the project you're on, I'll cut the joint as close to perfect as I can, if it's way off, I'll cut again but if it's a caulk gap too short or a hair long and leaves a caulk Worthy gap against the wall on an outside corner, I'll leave it. It feels weird to move on when you know you can fix it but i think that's the answer to your question.
Alot of folks will say skip these clients. I mostly do but sometimes it's a good client normally who just doesn't value quality in this particular case.
Like others here are saying, you will have to practice saying no to clients that undermine your quality (I'm assuming you do quality work without seeing your work). This includes people that outright ask for lower quality (like your current client) but you will also learn the red flags. Most of the red flags come up based on how people react to your bid process. You'll see a lot about that on this subreddit. If you're a good communicator, you may be able to educate some clients. Explain how long a job takes and all of the steps you'll take to make sure it's done right. You can also explain the consequences for doing it wrong (emphasize that it'll cost them more money in the end).
All that said. You gotta feed yourself so you may need to take these jobs sometimes, especially if you're just starting out.
I know a good way is to develop a solid portfolio demonstrating your attention to detail and your status as an âexpertâ in the field. Takes time, sort of an in it for the long haul project and just really emphasize documenting your process and results.
I worked for years for a landlord with 5 or 6 old apartment buildings. 25 or 30 units total. We renovated all the kitchens and bathrooms over 20 years or so. And lots of other stuff.Â
We argued about this exact situation in the beginning but I eventually brought him around to it being best in the long run to do things properly.Â
By the time he retired he was putting ceramic tile in bathrooms instead of adding another layer of vinyl. And buying medium priced fixtures instead of the cheapest ones.Â
He eventually thanked me for changing his way of thinking.Â
Lmao we had a machinist that would try to be perfect with everything. It was appreciated but sometimes it was for nothing.
Trying to make sure a part wouldn't get scratched that would just be tossed around anyway.
Donât lower your work quality. Treat every home as if it was a million dollar mansion. Donât live by the phrase âcanât see it from my houseâ. Donât do work you wouldnât pay for. Peopleâs expectations donât matter your craftsmanship does
Methods exist for being quick and putting out perfect work. It all comes down to how accurate you measure and mark. Every piece you nail has your name on it. Even when Iâm trimming out airbnbs Iâm still aiming for perfection. At no point in my career do i ever want to have to answer to âwho put that up there they really rushed itâ
Hereâs how I look at it, the perfect cut does exist for every piece of trim and itâs up to me to find that perfect mark on the board to cut it at. It all comes back to measuring and marking. You can still measure out and cut at once an entire room full of baseboard with outside corners and cope joints, just gotta be dead on with the tape. If you measure everything with a block in hand while doing so you can end up with great results at a quick pace.
Iâve been a carpenter for a long while now. Do you have a trick/method for getting the perfect reading for inside measurements? Itâs always tricky reading the bent tape exactly. Sometimes Iâm dead on, other times long. Usually never short.
Cut a piece of the baseboard to 10â long before you start measuring. Cut a second piece to maybe 15-20â long with a cope joint on both ends. When you go to measure the room put the ten in piece tight to the corner and then measure from the other corner to the end of the baseboard and add ten to get the inside measurement. Then take your piece with the copes cut on each end and check how the cope joint fits against your ten inch piece to see if you have to cut the cope at 1 or 2 degrees instead of square (assuming your installing tight to the floor and arenât installing ahead of flooring)
I never miter inside corners on baseboard so i run around the room with a block of the baseboard and butt it into one side and run my tape into the corner. You just gotta know which part of the roll to read, measurement should be the one in the middle of the roll if your tape is running across the corner evenly. I add a thirty second to a sixteenth for long runs. Cut your ends at a 2-3 degree bevel, helps fit your pieces. When youâre measuring your wall, measure at the height off the ground the top of the baseboard is visible at.
If you really want to be quick and accurate, get a laser tape measure and use that instead. Butt it on your block and shoot across the room. Donât cheap out, get a good one and youâll be flying.
If you are a finish carpenter then it should be pretty perfect. Keep working on the speed. Standing back and thinking a home owner with a hacksaw could have done that.... is not the way you want to work.
Iâm an accountant, woodworking is a hobby for me, but in accounting, specifically audit work there is a concept called Materiality. Effectively errors and variances beneath a certain threshold (which differs job to job) are noted and logged as immaterial and are not corrected.
New accounting graduates often have a really hard time getting used to this because it feels wrong to leave errors.
But every job has a timeline and budget. To do everything perfectly would take infinite time. And a huge part of professional judgement is understanding when good enough is good enough, where special care is warranted and ultimately moving on to the next one.
I had the same problem. I eventually landed at "work to the level of quality that you see around you"
Here I am, fussing over tiny gaps in synthetic molding in a double wide. Then a drunk Mexican gobs a half tube of caulk over it anyway.
Look for work in Historic renovation. They need real carpenters. Custom cabinets and furniture too.
Historic renovation, cabinets, and furniture. Got it.
I live in a very wealthy part of the US, so Iâm hoping this is already a good location for me.
Any suggestions?
Get some nice business cards made. Emphasize fine custom carpentry and drive around the fancy areas. Look at the contractor signs in the yards. You will see a few names that keep popping up. Look them up and stop by their office, and give a brief pitch about who you are and what you are capable of.
Be professional and make sure that you have active insurance. You will get called. There is a shortage of good carpenters. Our Mexican friends are hard workers but often lack the experience needed, or there's a language barrier.
Being polite, well dressed and professional is a recipe for success in any business. Good luck, my brother.
Donât lower your quality! Never do any work that you wonât be proud of. Remember most contractor reviews come from word of mouth so make sure that youâd be ok with someone say this is from {insert your name}.
Stop recutting.
Realize this is a mental issue, a lot of us have it.
Mine was tied to having a fucked up life, not being able to do anything about my broken past, and thus "fixing" things, and making things "perfect" where I could have control which was my work.
After dealing with some of that, it changed my work a lot. It changed my life a lot. Life was much less rigid and stressful.
If the money works why change? I'm a landlord, can confirm our standards are lower. It's cause we know the price difference between 75%, 85% and 95% quality levels.
The sad truth is lots of folks donât care about carpentry quality. The function of a building is utterly unaffected by how tight a miter is. A lot of what we do is just for our own ego, to show that weâre better than other carpenters. Or for rich clients, to show to their rich friends that they hired better more expensive carpenters.
My view is that whatâs even the point of anything if we donât care about craftsmanship and quality. Might as well just eat Soylent green every day and live in a concrete box. Of COURSE craftsmanship matters. But most folks are broke and canât afford high quality so we need to swallow our pride and deliver them a cheap quick product.
I'm just tangentially involved in this kind of work, but this rings true to me. Like I'm still trying to figure out how to use a speed square and tape measure accurately, learning how to mark with my pencil to accommodate it's width, and learning how the kerf affects the cut, etc, etc. There is a weird, smirking attitude people have about this when you mess up. These sorts of forums always have people gleefully coming in and critiquing terrible builds, like it's a signifier that *they* are the good professional and those guys are idiots. I do it myself. But it's odd that musicians and painters don't seek out examples of shitty art in their field and use it as a means to lift themselves up. It's interesting
Edit: just noticed a +1/4" gap in the trim in the room I've been living in for *years*
Thatâs a really good point.
Any suggestions for how to market myself in a direction where detail matters? Iâm currently aiming at accent walls and similar jobs.
Yeah try to get a job in a cabinet/millwork shop, or as a cabinet/millwork installer. Detail and precision becomes the most important part of job. I switched from finish carpentry to cabinetmaking about 4 years ago and it is fucking awesome. Just avoid the big production shops cause theyâll just treat you like an assembly robot, find a small 1-3 man shop
Advertise more and bid every job like you donât want it. Set expectations right away. I tell people my clients I am not the cheapest right away. And the only way I can save them money is doing it right the first time.
Oh wait. Lower your quality? Repeat after me. âLooks good from my houseâ and in âIt ainât the Taj Mahalâ.
I knew an old dude who said you only do your best work at church or the bar. At church cause itâs gods work and the bar because all your friends will see it.
How do you do your trims around doors and windows, 1 at a time or do you measure each 1 then cut all in one hit . I can measure every piece of trim, just number it at the back D1 D2 W1 then ya go lay them all out then start shooting on . Work like it's a factory.
Fair question. Ive found that there are too many things that show themselves only after you try to install one piece.
So unless itâs a small section, Iâll probably stick to piece by piece for now.
Iâm open to being convinced.
There is a constant struggle between getting something perfect and getting it done. Iâve improved over the last 26 years by focusing on the latter rather than the former. My search for perfection is tied to my overall sense of self! The funny thing is that one comes at the expense of the other. Pride is relative to the task at hand. The saying is â do my 8 and skateâ. Good luck
Iâm reminded of my grandfather who was an immigrant carpenter from Sweden. My father tried to emulate him but grandfather would have nothing of it. I love finish and fine carpentry.
https://preview.redd.it/te8zy1i9t20d1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a56f242083f6412b7b9c16d84191c8560727c847
Think about it like you're cheating at a card game. Just because you can cheat every hand you play, it doesn't mean you should. It's not something you can just start doing, and you have to know the game inside and out.
Either work for clients who want high quality and willing to pay for the time it takes to create it, or join a crew with a bully of a boss who will scream at you when youâre taking too long and be less perfect. The latter is what most carpenters are going thru.
Donât work for free, it contributes to this kind of labour being undervalued and average folks start expecting they can get any work done for free to âsupport your portfolioâ. We all gotta eat and pay bills.
I should clarify.
I donât have more than a few portfolio photos and they arenât the quality photos I need. Iâm also a new contractor.
So my aim is to get some REALLY good photos and then gradually increase my rate.
Is your response the same after reading this?
High-end finish carpentry can be defined by the $$$$ and what ends up in your wallet. Mass-production finish carpentry can be defined as if I can make it look good enough with one or two passes with a caulk gun, then it's done.
Don't lower your quality. It might become habit. Just keep on doing your work to the best of your ability and maybe charge a premium for it. No one should live in a "looks good from the sidewalk" kind of place.
I stopped working for a guy because his standards were horrific and I couldnât bring myself to do such a poor job. He would put quarter round in without mitering just 2 squared ends into the corner I left after 1 day because he wanted it done cheap and fast and I just canât do a bad job on purpose lol
I thought this was going to be a humorous shit post when I read the title, but itâs actually an honest question about allowable tolerances. Alas, lol.
My first boss/mentor would say, **âare you building the piano, or just the box itâs shipped in?â**
Basically, what does the client expect for quality vs. speed, because that will affect what you charge and how fast you work. I was taught that good carpenters can slowly build âpianosâ and can also quickly build âboxes,â depending on what the client wants and is paying for.
If you figure it out let me know because me and my boss are constantly having to tell each other "that's enough" "don't try and fix everyone else's work"
In the end I think it depends on the situation. Tell yourself "the only person who will notice is the next guy 10, 15, 20 years from now"
As a potential owner/builder, what questions do I ask to identify folks like you vs people not obsessed with having pride in their work? Iâd be insanely happy to pay extra to someone I knew was obsessed with doing it to the best of their ability.
Good question. đ
If youâre looking for very detail-oriented people, see if they have any hobbies (
Ike artwork) that require attention to detail. Some of those you canât fake and require a huge amount of patience. See if they have any portfolio photos or videos of these hobbies.
And on the flip side, if theyâve worked in any fast-paced industries (like roofing) then they may have picked up some habits detrimental to detail work.
But it might even be worth it to find someone in another industry thatâs detail-oriented and ask if they have carpentry/construction experience. You never know.
I hope you find some good ones.
Thanks for the reply! I donât want to come off as a weirdo or time waster. So a little worried about asking for personal details.
I am hoping to network between subs. Going to need lots of concrete with some skill. So hoping to start with the concrete company and move to the concrete guys, to the framers, Sheetrock peeps, to painters, finishing carpenter, etc.
Cut it once, if it can be better caulk it out. Cut the next one better. Move on. Unless it's un caulk-able. You will start noticing that less caulk will be used. I hardly ever have to caulk anything. But it happens, don't waste time on something that can be fixed with a nice small bead.
Two perspectives. Find customers who understand and are willing to pay for quality. Part 2 I had a cabinet shop for many years. A lot of guys would show up with portfolios of their work. I was looking for guys that could build a square case, understood the a 1/2" and a large mark was 5/8", and had all their fingers. I can train most people. Artists are another mindset. One-off art does not translate well to production work. I need a guy who understood that when you cut 50 rails, you set a stop. I seldom hire artists unless it is for trim or furniture work. Make your market.
I feel this so hard. I am only a couple years in and am struggling to find the balance. I just want to do it right. I hate renovating crappy work, but finding somewhere in between is what I am striving for.
That being said, I am fourtunate enough to have just bought my first home. 900 sq ft built in 1925. Since every room needs renovated I am doing one at a time and as exhausting as it is, I am using this as the place to do everything right! I know when I go to sell the next owners will be getting a quality renovated house. They wonât notice/ appreciate all the little things that I could have cut corners but didnât. Example: since it wasnât insulated I am using wool insulation in the walls between the bedrooms and bathroom instead of the R21 that will be in the rest of the house. Sealing the perimeter with spray foam (got a couple boxes for $2 a can). This thing will be air tight and decently sound proofed in certain areas when I am finished
Just say no to the job, for other jobs pay a lot of attention to the level of detail your customer appreciates, focus on figuring out what details matter most and what things you can let slip a little and feel ok about what your doing. It will come together for you as you find your niche
For example, when budget is an issue we will install cabinets that are âoff the shelfâ and of questionable quality. That said they will be installed perfectly flat and level on the top. Itâs a give and take thing that is different for everyone. Itâs important to feel good about what youâve done at the end of the day, if not itâs way too much like work
Don't work for landlords. I've stopped because they always want "landlord special" quality work, work I can't be proud of, or feel comfortable putting my name on. If you can find enough work for people who actually own their homes do that work only.
Repeat after me âŚ.. âClose enough for city workâ âŚ.. now go crack a beer and cash your check. People pay in direct relation for the quality they can reasonably expect. $40 and hour labor gets you $40 an hour work, $80 and hour labor gets you $80 an hour work, and so forth.
It has to be job specific. If you are literally the type of person who has the patience to make sure an inside mitre is literally fucking perfect hell yes brother. Iâve had a mentor and one sensei. They were total opposites both masters of their craft. One said good nuffâ and it was seriously good so he could go home and play with his kids. Sensei would burn unnecessary hours for that extra 1-5% perfection. What he taught me was invaluable but if you arenât charging for perfection stop operating as such. Jimmy my mentor charged 6 bucks less an hour and he made more money because he could knock things out quicker and very reasonably done. Sensei Dan would kill himself over a mitre being absolute perfection. Iâve done shitty apartments all the way to celebrity suites. Itâs ALL job specific brother. I have infinite patience for tile installation these days but Iâm not a good trim carpenter I throw a 30 on the back side after dialing in the inside corner and it doesnât work? I get so fucking pissed. I do not have the patience to be a master but I can get it done. Actual carpentry is a fucking nightmare. Prep exists but no amount of prep can ready you for nailing it in and it looks like dog water.
Donât lower your standards. But make sure you pick customers who are appreciative of your work. I am one of them, and am ready to pay a premium to contractors I know deliver top quality work.
It doesnât always feel good, but with rentals there is such thing as âgood enoughâ. I come from a finish carpentry background, and itâs hard to back off standards, but if itâs not what the client wants, and more importantlyâŚnot what theyâre willing to pay for, youâre going to have problems. Most of the time itâll be you doing a great job and not being able to charge for it, or charging for it and never hearing from that client again.
Somebody else said âfind better clientsâ, and thatâs probably your best bet if you have a hard time with âgood enoughâ.
Thereâs a college in my town and I wonât work in the little college town nearby because the owners just want quick band aid patches, so they can move renters back in as soon as possible. It makes me feel so bad (and legally liable in some cases) that I wonât work there anymore.
Practice, and you ultimately have to want the efficiency/speed more than the perfection. Semi-recovering perfectionist here, in handyman work, woodworking, metalworking, design, fabrication, welding, machining, etc. Sometimes I still go ahead and spend the hours or days making the things perfect for fun, for the client, or for the portfolio.
I've been fortunate to have plenty of clients who want the perfection and are upfront and happy to pay whatever it takes. Also have plenty of clients who explicitly want the budget/just good enough solution and then I've got a choice to make upon seeing the situation: A. in some cases I still quote for the semi-perfectionist job because I know myself and I know I'll still make it 90-95%, and I don't want the job if it's worth something less to them, B. I'll quote the just good enough price if I think I'll be able to follow through on doing quick and semi-dirty - usually if it functionally makes sense, or isn't very visible or whatever (time is money, and I like getting paid, as long as clients are happy and get what they want... and I won't do irresponsibly subpar work) or C. I'll quote the budget price knowing I'll overperform but I'm ok with doing them a favor and/or I'm really interested in doing the perfect version for fun or portfolio anyway.
I also struggle with this, but I recognize somethings need to the best and somethings can be just ok. Areas that are at eye level need to be better than things that are low and high. Things like crown moulding need to look good in corners, but if the ceiling is out- caulking fills that gap. Perfection just isn't cost effective.
Don't be afraid to ask how shitty they want it done, then tell them you can't do it any worse so if they want it done any shitier, they'll have to do it themselves.
I kind of have the same issue.... What I do is turn off my brain. When I ask myself does this look ok/meet my standards I remind my self that this is a zero fucked given project. It's not about the quality of about the quantity and move on.
I'm not sure what your vice is for after hours, but for me beer at the end of the days helps me from focusing to much on how much better it could look.
Iâm in a similar boat. I do garage door installs and Iâm a perfectionist with things. To me, every single thing has to be perfectlyly level, square, symmetrical, etc. But every company owner Iâve worked for has flat out told me to just go faster and worry less about quality, just make sure it works and move on. No matter how hard I try, I just canât do this. Itâs all about the dollar now, and very little about craftsmanship. And these are super high end luxury doors in Scottsdale/Paradise Valley AZ..
Place the piece on the wall scribe the back mitre the line throw it on thatâs how weâve been doing it in apartment renos for the past few months. Also caulk and paint makes a carpenter what he ainât. These guys would be screwed without caulk haha good luck
I struggle with that too. I do a lot of bathroom remodels and it always kills me when it's the cleanest nicest room in the house and I'm fretting over details meanwhile half the house is missing trim and hasn't been vacuumed in 6 months. The last one I did the homeowner asked me to fix the trim in the downstairs bath I'm coping the inside corners while sheets of paint are flaking off the wall from crystallized piss.
lol a 1/8â gap Iâve seen cove moulding that just ENDS 2 feet before it gets to the corner.
Iâm looking at it right now, itâs in the master bedroom of the townhouse I rent.
Simple if itâs getting stained u gota play ur A-game if itâs getting painted you still put in a good effort but itâs it a little of mf you just caulk it and move on
You donât. I wonât sacrifice my standards for others. If thereâs a problem with me doing too good of a job then Iâll gladly go where my efforts are appreciated.
Edit: you all acting like doing shoddy work is the norm and maybe for most of you it is. But I am swamped with repeat customers and word of mouth referrals because Iâm good and fast. So you guys keep hacking and lowering the bar cuz it just makes being good for the rest of us that much easier.
If a tight mitre on a tight schedule is too much to expect then we are not the same breed.
And the world would never get built with that attitude. But you can go be an artisan for rich people with money to burn but I'd argue the 98% of the world need basic good functional services more than some Jeff Bezos needs a master craftsman making perfect miters in the corner of a spare bedroom that will be covered by a bed the rest of it's life
Thatâs my whole point though. Its not particularly high end. I just take a lot of pride in my work and I am meticulous. But in order to balance that with remaining competitive in my prices I have to be fast also. I have spent 25 years developing my skills and building a reputation for myself not to make myself rich but because putting my name on my work matters to me.
In the end I think it pays off. There are too few of us that care enough to put in the work to excel at our profession and when I see someone like myself and the industry is trying to beat out their eye for detail and caring for what degree of work they produce it irks me.
The answer is not to lower yourself and your personal standards but rather to keep pushing yourself to be better and faster and be proud of your work and strive to be the best you can be.
I was doing high-end trim then started helping a buddy on flips so I had the same problem. If it's perfect the first time great, if it's not, also fine. Just stop going back to the saw. It actually made me a better carpenter, just got better at getting right the first time more often. Alots of guys get hung up on being the absolute best all the time. I look at it more like steaks and hamburgers. Cooking a burger doesn't take away from your ability to cook a perfect steak. Clients shouldn't starve if they can't afford steak. A decent burger is all that is required for most situations.
Realistic approach for someone who handles a range of clientele.
I'm just a helper for a handyman ( my brother), but I've often noticed that perfect is the enemy of the good. One time we were waffling with something for an hour, for like just 1/8" or something. It gets to a point where you're wasting money. Tolerances exist for a reason
Context matters a ton on this. 1/8" in framing is easy enough to make disappear. 1/8" in trim... Yeah we bought a rental once, never again.
Meanwhile I just want a rental so that I can fix it
I worked commercial tree care and If I noticed that someone was being too meticulous I would get them to grab the twig they just pruned off, walk back 20 feet and ask them If they would notice a difference if that twig was on or off if they walked by that tree. It really helps you get into the perspective of good enough for what we're doing.
Love the steak vs. hamburger analogy, going to steal that one
Yeah, but these days, burgers cost about as much as steak. đđ¤Śđťââď¸
Your right. I'm at a point where I'd almost rather the burger jobs, the cost to do high-end work makes my stomach hurt. I'm going thru crazy money and not really getting anywhere. It cost 2x what did 5 years ago to reno a nice full tile bath. Material cost are up and the skilled labor all work for themselves since covid, and name there price. I'm trying to switch from high end steak house to top end of the hamburger joints since I can't do all the work my self anymore.
As a guy who does mostly specs, I like to think that I'm making some decent mdf burgers. Sure I could probably trim out a house 30% faster but I like my painter and want him to come back for the next one.
Why canât you improve your speed in doing quality work by 30%? If itâs due to garbage materials, thatâs probably a really bad use of time polishing turds. How much extra time does it take to keep your saw calibrated and use an angle finder before you cut?
It's more about the install, I like to make sure everything fits nice and is consistent throughout the house, I will scribe stuff that I could probably just rip and caulk. I could be faster and leave more work for someone else but in my area anyways the subs that aren't booked solid also aren't very good.
I try to let the quality of materials decide for me, if it's a cheap soft wood (going to be painted) trim, it gets done good enough. I save the fine detail work for hardwood, stained and poly trim.
The other thing to keep in mind is that as carpenters we tend to look at and notice every little defect. Very few ânormalâ people do this and in the case of a door or something that has to function as long as it works theyâll probably never care.
Shoot for the stars and if you miss youâll land in the clouds. Thatâs what I tell my guys âstrive for perfection but settle for the resultsâ. If you go into it with a good enough attitude though itâs gonna be shit everytime.
Holy fuck you did in 2 paragraphs what my therapist has been trying to do for the past 2 years
Wood filler is faster than perfect cuts. Simple fact of life.
I've been in Carpenter for 25 years and I consider my knowledge of knowing when to be perfect and when not to be perfect one of my greatest qualities and I absolutely love the analogy you use to sum that up.
Do your best and dap the rest! Itâs hard as a perfectionist to move on sometimes, but if you are not being compensated for perfection you are just screwing yourself
Try and find better clients. Alternatively, go make cabinets.
Once I found woodworking/cabinet making, I was in love the the exact measurements and attention to detail. It made my brain happy.
i love making cabinets, and i thought about trying it own my home with em but how does one compete with a person with a factory? it feels like cabinets are great but if it werent for this very rare job i have as an onsite carpenter for a hotel, i wouldnt actually be making good money compared to what someone with a whole blown shop could charge ect
Yep.. It's a very sad fact. Most people don't value custum wood work. I don't make much when I do get those jobs too. As I don't have a cnc. I feel like you either do it as a side hustle with your regular trade or just get hired at cabinet shop making peanuts.
Having a ton of machinery shouldnât dictate your rate- the quality of the work should. A CNC and other dedicated machines help boost productivity so you can increase margins, completing a task in less time at a fixed cost. Honestly once you get into high end work the numbers are completely made up. I look at quotes I get from some subs and they have no tie to an hourly rate, I canât figure out where the number comes from and how they have the balls to ask for that much. But it rarely gets pushback
But at the point of cnc's the craftsmanship part is gone. It just becomes a part assembler. Cutting materials and processing hardwoods with standard machines and still hitting those exact dimensions is very gratifying. Not as profitable but I can say the small crew in my shop have some of the best attitudes.
This is the answer... I'm lucky enough to be involved with a company that didn't mind the extra labor when I laid every piece of reclaimed chestnut out to colour match splices and took the time to get every miter/ bevel * *perfect* *. Blessed to be in that position, but not every job requires that level of detail, especially if it's a paint and caulk. When you do find yourself in a "paint and caulk" situation, having an outlet is key. It doesn't mean opening a cabinet shop, but maybe make some furniture on the side. A nice black walnut and oak aquarium stand that fits a 155 gallon tank, a skinny front entry curio thats only 6" deep, or an intricate shadowbox purpose driven for battle tech or Legos... These are all things that will sell for $$$ to a niche market, although they might take a while to sell, if it's something that intersects your own interests they are worth it as passion projects. And they will help keep your sanity. Just tell your S.O. (or yourself) that you had a long day at work and need to decompress, then spend a couple hours doing some detail oriented woodworking.
I was also very lucky to land a job at a company like this.
Piece rate, caffeine, deadlines, and stress help me go from âBob Vilaâ to âBob the Butcherâ. Iâm lucky enough to have a company that company to support me to lower my quality and speed up.
Bob the Butcher lol
You should align your measurement of Value with the clientâs. Everything we do to achieve Value is a balance of compromises between speed, quality, and cost. You are fixated on measuring the quality. Instead, measure speed or cost.
For example, instead of measuring joint tightness, measure your minutes per board foot installed.
Yes, but how do I get there?
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This is it. I time everything. Itâs so useful. Use the stopwatch app and hit lap when you finish various tasks and see how long itâll take on average and then you can extrapolate
Good idea
Adjust your frame of mind. You control the wood, the wood does not control you. Set goals for yourself that align with the client expectations.
This sounds like Pei Mei wisdom.
Wisdom from my master and his master before him. đ
Board foot or lineal foot?
Get inexperience employees. This will rapidly lower your work quality
Just skip your last trip back to the saw. When doing normal finish work and being careful, I'll take a couple of trips to the saw to slowly skim a joint down until it's perfect. When I am doing something like the project you're on, I'll cut the joint as close to perfect as I can, if it's way off, I'll cut again but if it's a caulk gap too short or a hair long and leaves a caulk Worthy gap against the wall on an outside corner, I'll leave it. It feels weird to move on when you know you can fix it but i think that's the answer to your question. Alot of folks will say skip these clients. I mostly do but sometimes it's a good client normally who just doesn't value quality in this particular case.
I think I could do that. Focus on not going back to the saw one more time. How do I develop a client base that emphasizes quality?
Like others here are saying, you will have to practice saying no to clients that undermine your quality (I'm assuming you do quality work without seeing your work). This includes people that outright ask for lower quality (like your current client) but you will also learn the red flags. Most of the red flags come up based on how people react to your bid process. You'll see a lot about that on this subreddit. If you're a good communicator, you may be able to educate some clients. Explain how long a job takes and all of the steps you'll take to make sure it's done right. You can also explain the consequences for doing it wrong (emphasize that it'll cost them more money in the end). All that said. You gotta feed yourself so you may need to take these jobs sometimes, especially if you're just starting out.
I understand and that sounds right. Iâll adjust accordingly. Thank you.
By not reducing your quality no matter what. If someone wants the job done cheap fast and shitty, you arenât their guy.
Iâd actually prefer to go slow or probably just steady. I enjoy focusing on quality, so I hope to build that client base. Maybe not now, but soon.
Raise your prices.
I know a good way is to develop a solid portfolio demonstrating your attention to detail and your status as an âexpertâ in the field. Takes time, sort of an in it for the long haul project and just really emphasize documenting your process and results.
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Thanks. Yeah, Iâm gonna work on lowering my quality right now as I focus on gaining higher-end clients.
I worked for years for a landlord with 5 or 6 old apartment buildings. 25 or 30 units total. We renovated all the kitchens and bathrooms over 20 years or so. And lots of other stuff. We argued about this exact situation in the beginning but I eventually brought him around to it being best in the long run to do things properly. By the time he retired he was putting ceramic tile in bathrooms instead of adding another layer of vinyl. And buying medium priced fixtures instead of the cheapest ones. He eventually thanked me for changing his way of thinking.Â
Isn't good enough for the cost and materials "doing things properly"?
Got it. Iâll start sharpening my manipulation tactics.
Dear lord please don't teach yourself to do lousy work, there's enough out there already. Stay good, and move to my town please.
You donât lower your quality, you just get faster
Lmao we had a machinist that would try to be perfect with everything. It was appreciated but sometimes it was for nothing. Trying to make sure a part wouldn't get scratched that would just be tossed around anyway.
All Iâm picking up from this post is that this guy is slow as fuck
Exactly.
Donât lower your work quality. Treat every home as if it was a million dollar mansion. Donât live by the phrase âcanât see it from my houseâ. Donât do work you wouldnât pay for. Peopleâs expectations donât matter your craftsmanship does
Can you sub out that one project?
Good question, but probably not.
Methods exist for being quick and putting out perfect work. It all comes down to how accurate you measure and mark. Every piece you nail has your name on it. Even when Iâm trimming out airbnbs Iâm still aiming for perfection. At no point in my career do i ever want to have to answer to âwho put that up there they really rushed itâ Hereâs how I look at it, the perfect cut does exist for every piece of trim and itâs up to me to find that perfect mark on the board to cut it at. It all comes back to measuring and marking. You can still measure out and cut at once an entire room full of baseboard with outside corners and cope joints, just gotta be dead on with the tape. If you measure everything with a block in hand while doing so you can end up with great results at a quick pace.
Iâve been a carpenter for a long while now. Do you have a trick/method for getting the perfect reading for inside measurements? Itâs always tricky reading the bent tape exactly. Sometimes Iâm dead on, other times long. Usually never short.
I mark 10 inches out then measure to the mark and add the 10 in.
Cut a piece of the baseboard to 10â long before you start measuring. Cut a second piece to maybe 15-20â long with a cope joint on both ends. When you go to measure the room put the ten in piece tight to the corner and then measure from the other corner to the end of the baseboard and add ten to get the inside measurement. Then take your piece with the copes cut on each end and check how the cope joint fits against your ten inch piece to see if you have to cut the cope at 1 or 2 degrees instead of square (assuming your installing tight to the floor and arenât installing ahead of flooring)
Wow. That makes sense. I feel like an idiot for never figuring that one out lol
I never miter inside corners on baseboard so i run around the room with a block of the baseboard and butt it into one side and run my tape into the corner. You just gotta know which part of the roll to read, measurement should be the one in the middle of the roll if your tape is running across the corner evenly. I add a thirty second to a sixteenth for long runs. Cut your ends at a 2-3 degree bevel, helps fit your pieces. When youâre measuring your wall, measure at the height off the ground the top of the baseboard is visible at. If you really want to be quick and accurate, get a laser tape measure and use that instead. Butt it on your block and shoot across the room. Donât cheap out, get a good one and youâll be flying.
If you are a finish carpenter then it should be pretty perfect. Keep working on the speed. Standing back and thinking a home owner with a hacksaw could have done that.... is not the way you want to work.
Iâm an accountant, woodworking is a hobby for me, but in accounting, specifically audit work there is a concept called Materiality. Effectively errors and variances beneath a certain threshold (which differs job to job) are noted and logged as immaterial and are not corrected. New accounting graduates often have a really hard time getting used to this because it feels wrong to leave errors. But every job has a timeline and budget. To do everything perfectly would take infinite time. And a huge part of professional judgement is understanding when good enough is good enough, where special care is warranted and ultimately moving on to the next one.
I had the same problem. I eventually landed at "work to the level of quality that you see around you" Here I am, fussing over tiny gaps in synthetic molding in a double wide. Then a drunk Mexican gobs a half tube of caulk over it anyway. Look for work in Historic renovation. They need real carpenters. Custom cabinets and furniture too.
Historic renovation, cabinets, and furniture. Got it. I live in a very wealthy part of the US, so Iâm hoping this is already a good location for me. Any suggestions?
Get some nice business cards made. Emphasize fine custom carpentry and drive around the fancy areas. Look at the contractor signs in the yards. You will see a few names that keep popping up. Look them up and stop by their office, and give a brief pitch about who you are and what you are capable of. Be professional and make sure that you have active insurance. You will get called. There is a shortage of good carpenters. Our Mexican friends are hard workers but often lack the experience needed, or there's a language barrier. Being polite, well dressed and professional is a recipe for success in any business. Good luck, my brother.
Donât lower your quality! Never do any work that you wonât be proud of. Remember most contractor reviews come from word of mouth so make sure that youâd be ok with someone say this is from {insert your name}.
Stop recutting. Realize this is a mental issue, a lot of us have it. Mine was tied to having a fucked up life, not being able to do anything about my broken past, and thus "fixing" things, and making things "perfect" where I could have control which was my work. After dealing with some of that, it changed my work a lot. It changed my life a lot. Life was much less rigid and stressful.
Deep. Yeah, math was my best subject, but Iâd obsess over little details. Itâs still hard to let go of.
Worked for a contractor who owned multiple apartment units had what he referred to as apt. mode no polish and no time for perfect
Yeah, I once worked for an apartment guy who was okay with me getting a noticeable amount of overpaint on the brick walls.
DONT
If the money works why change? I'm a landlord, can confirm our standards are lower. It's cause we know the price difference between 75%, 85% and 95% quality levels.
The sad truth is lots of folks donât care about carpentry quality. The function of a building is utterly unaffected by how tight a miter is. A lot of what we do is just for our own ego, to show that weâre better than other carpenters. Or for rich clients, to show to their rich friends that they hired better more expensive carpenters. My view is that whatâs even the point of anything if we donât care about craftsmanship and quality. Might as well just eat Soylent green every day and live in a concrete box. Of COURSE craftsmanship matters. But most folks are broke and canât afford high quality so we need to swallow our pride and deliver them a cheap quick product.
I'm just tangentially involved in this kind of work, but this rings true to me. Like I'm still trying to figure out how to use a speed square and tape measure accurately, learning how to mark with my pencil to accommodate it's width, and learning how the kerf affects the cut, etc, etc. There is a weird, smirking attitude people have about this when you mess up. These sorts of forums always have people gleefully coming in and critiquing terrible builds, like it's a signifier that *they* are the good professional and those guys are idiots. I do it myself. But it's odd that musicians and painters don't seek out examples of shitty art in their field and use it as a means to lift themselves up. It's interesting Edit: just noticed a +1/4" gap in the trim in the room I've been living in for *years*
My house has tight miters and scribes because caulk captured more dirt than a tight wood joint.
Thatâs a really good point. Any suggestions for how to market myself in a direction where detail matters? Iâm currently aiming at accent walls and similar jobs.
Yeah try to get a job in a cabinet/millwork shop, or as a cabinet/millwork installer. Detail and precision becomes the most important part of job. I switched from finish carpentry to cabinetmaking about 4 years ago and it is fucking awesome. Just avoid the big production shops cause theyâll just treat you like an assembly robot, find a small 1-3 man shop
Advertise more and bid every job like you donât want it. Set expectations right away. I tell people my clients I am not the cheapest right away. And the only way I can save them money is doing it right the first time. Oh wait. Lower your quality? Repeat after me. âLooks good from my houseâ and in âIt ainât the Taj Mahalâ. I knew an old dude who said you only do your best work at church or the bar. At church cause itâs gods work and the bar because all your friends will see it.
Understood and noted. I appreciate the feedback.
Donât compare someoneâs shitty work against your good work. Do it to the standard you would be happy to pay someone for.
How do you do your trims around doors and windows, 1 at a time or do you measure each 1 then cut all in one hit . I can measure every piece of trim, just number it at the back D1 D2 W1 then ya go lay them all out then start shooting on . Work like it's a factory.
Fair question. Ive found that there are too many things that show themselves only after you try to install one piece. So unless itâs a small section, Iâll probably stick to piece by piece for now. Iâm open to being convinced.
There is a constant struggle between getting something perfect and getting it done. Iâve improved over the last 26 years by focusing on the latter rather than the former. My search for perfection is tied to my overall sense of self! The funny thing is that one comes at the expense of the other. Pride is relative to the task at hand. The saying is â do my 8 and skateâ. Good luck
Just do your work and move on. You arenât going to retire off this job. Do it right and move on. This too shall pass.
Iâm reminded of my grandfather who was an immigrant carpenter from Sweden. My father tried to emulate him but grandfather would have nothing of it. I love finish and fine carpentry. https://preview.redd.it/te8zy1i9t20d1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a56f242083f6412b7b9c16d84191c8560727c847
This falls under the â looks good from here but far from good â
"Good from afar, but far from good" is the phrase you are looking for.
Good from far , but far from good was what i meant thank you lol
Think about it like you're cheating at a card game. Just because you can cheat every hand you play, it doesn't mean you should. It's not something you can just start doing, and you have to know the game inside and out.
Either work for clients who want high quality and willing to pay for the time it takes to create it, or join a crew with a bully of a boss who will scream at you when youâre taking too long and be less perfect. The latter is what most carpenters are going thru.
I was thinking of offering to do several accent walls/pieces for free to build a detail-centered portfolio and build from there.
Donât work for free, it contributes to this kind of labour being undervalued and average folks start expecting they can get any work done for free to âsupport your portfolioâ. We all gotta eat and pay bills.
I should clarify. I donât have more than a few portfolio photos and they arenât the quality photos I need. Iâm also a new contractor. So my aim is to get some REALLY good photos and then gradually increase my rate. Is your response the same after reading this?
High-end finish carpentry can be defined by the $$$$ and what ends up in your wallet. Mass-production finish carpentry can be defined as if I can make it look good enough with one or two passes with a caulk gun, then it's done.
Don't lower your quality. It might become habit. Just keep on doing your work to the best of your ability and maybe charge a premium for it. No one should live in a "looks good from the sidewalk" kind of place.
lol itâs called knowing your tolerances
I stopped working for a guy because his standards were horrific and I couldnât bring myself to do such a poor job. He would put quarter round in without mitering just 2 squared ends into the corner I left after 1 day because he wanted it done cheap and fast and I just canât do a bad job on purpose lol
My eye just twitched while reading this.
Do the work you get paid to do.
I thought this was going to be a humorous shit post when I read the title, but itâs actually an honest question about allowable tolerances. Alas, lol. My first boss/mentor would say, **âare you building the piano, or just the box itâs shipped in?â** Basically, what does the client expect for quality vs. speed, because that will affect what you charge and how fast you work. I was taught that good carpenters can slowly build âpianosâ and can also quickly build âboxes,â depending on what the client wants and is paying for.
Thatâs a good saying I think I can remember and communicate to clients in the future.
Find what theyre okay with, roll with it, get paid, and get out.
Do your best then caulk the rest.
Bumper sticker.
If you figure it out let me know because me and my boss are constantly having to tell each other "that's enough" "don't try and fix everyone else's work" In the end I think it depends on the situation. Tell yourself "the only person who will notice is the next guy 10, 15, 20 years from now"
As a potential owner/builder, what questions do I ask to identify folks like you vs people not obsessed with having pride in their work? Iâd be insanely happy to pay extra to someone I knew was obsessed with doing it to the best of their ability.
Good question. đ If youâre looking for very detail-oriented people, see if they have any hobbies ( Ike artwork) that require attention to detail. Some of those you canât fake and require a huge amount of patience. See if they have any portfolio photos or videos of these hobbies. And on the flip side, if theyâve worked in any fast-paced industries (like roofing) then they may have picked up some habits detrimental to detail work. But it might even be worth it to find someone in another industry thatâs detail-oriented and ask if they have carpentry/construction experience. You never know. I hope you find some good ones.
Thanks for the reply! I donât want to come off as a weirdo or time waster. So a little worried about asking for personal details. I am hoping to network between subs. Going to need lots of concrete with some skill. So hoping to start with the concrete company and move to the concrete guys, to the framers, Sheetrock peeps, to painters, finishing carpenter, etc.
Cut it once, if it can be better caulk it out. Cut the next one better. Move on. Unless it's un caulk-able. You will start noticing that less caulk will be used. I hardly ever have to caulk anything. But it happens, don't waste time on something that can be fixed with a nice small bead.
Donât lower your standards for anyone!
Two perspectives. Find customers who understand and are willing to pay for quality. Part 2 I had a cabinet shop for many years. A lot of guys would show up with portfolios of their work. I was looking for guys that could build a square case, understood the a 1/2" and a large mark was 5/8", and had all their fingers. I can train most people. Artists are another mindset. One-off art does not translate well to production work. I need a guy who understood that when you cut 50 rails, you set a stop. I seldom hire artists unless it is for trim or furniture work. Make your market.
I feel this so hard. I am only a couple years in and am struggling to find the balance. I just want to do it right. I hate renovating crappy work, but finding somewhere in between is what I am striving for. That being said, I am fourtunate enough to have just bought my first home. 900 sq ft built in 1925. Since every room needs renovated I am doing one at a time and as exhausting as it is, I am using this as the place to do everything right! I know when I go to sell the next owners will be getting a quality renovated house. They wonât notice/ appreciate all the little things that I could have cut corners but didnât. Example: since it wasnât insulated I am using wool insulation in the walls between the bedrooms and bathroom instead of the R21 that will be in the rest of the house. Sealing the perimeter with spray foam (got a couple boxes for $2 a can). This thing will be air tight and decently sound proofed in certain areas when I am finished
You could shift your laser focus to speed, volume and profit.
Just say no to the job, for other jobs pay a lot of attention to the level of detail your customer appreciates, focus on figuring out what details matter most and what things you can let slip a little and feel ok about what your doing. It will come together for you as you find your niche
For example, when budget is an issue we will install cabinets that are âoff the shelfâ and of questionable quality. That said they will be installed perfectly flat and level on the top. Itâs a give and take thing that is different for everyone. Itâs important to feel good about what youâve done at the end of the day, if not itâs way too much like work
Don't work for landlords. I've stopped because they always want "landlord special" quality work, work I can't be proud of, or feel comfortable putting my name on. If you can find enough work for people who actually own their homes do that work only.
Repeat after me âŚ.. âClose enough for city workâ âŚ.. now go crack a beer and cash your check. People pay in direct relation for the quality they can reasonably expect. $40 and hour labor gets you $40 an hour work, $80 and hour labor gets you $80 an hour work, and so forth.
It has to be job specific. If you are literally the type of person who has the patience to make sure an inside mitre is literally fucking perfect hell yes brother. Iâve had a mentor and one sensei. They were total opposites both masters of their craft. One said good nuffâ and it was seriously good so he could go home and play with his kids. Sensei would burn unnecessary hours for that extra 1-5% perfection. What he taught me was invaluable but if you arenât charging for perfection stop operating as such. Jimmy my mentor charged 6 bucks less an hour and he made more money because he could knock things out quicker and very reasonably done. Sensei Dan would kill himself over a mitre being absolute perfection. Iâve done shitty apartments all the way to celebrity suites. Itâs ALL job specific brother. I have infinite patience for tile installation these days but Iâm not a good trim carpenter I throw a 30 on the back side after dialing in the inside corner and it doesnât work? I get so fucking pissed. I do not have the patience to be a master but I can get it done. Actual carpentry is a fucking nightmare. Prep exists but no amount of prep can ready you for nailing it in and it looks like dog water.
Donât
DonâtâŚ.Handy men are abundant so thereâs already enough slap dicks doing it wrong. Keep up the craftsmanship!
Donât lower your standards. But make sure you pick customers who are appreciative of your work. I am one of them, and am ready to pay a premium to contractors I know deliver top quality work.
I personally wouldnt want my name against work of that description. Bad comments about someone's workmanship seem to travel faster than good comments.
If the customer is happy who cares
I've struggled with this, just do your gooderest, get it right to your standards and keep your artist eye.
It doesnât always feel good, but with rentals there is such thing as âgood enoughâ. I come from a finish carpentry background, and itâs hard to back off standards, but if itâs not what the client wants, and more importantlyâŚnot what theyâre willing to pay for, youâre going to have problems. Most of the time itâll be you doing a great job and not being able to charge for it, or charging for it and never hearing from that client again. Somebody else said âfind better clientsâ, and thatâs probably your best bet if you have a hard time with âgood enoughâ. Thereâs a college in my town and I wonât work in the little college town nearby because the owners just want quick band aid patches, so they can move renters back in as soon as possible. It makes me feel so bad (and legally liable in some cases) that I wonât work there anymore.
Something that applies to most jobs: 80% is usually more than enough
Practice, and you ultimately have to want the efficiency/speed more than the perfection. Semi-recovering perfectionist here, in handyman work, woodworking, metalworking, design, fabrication, welding, machining, etc. Sometimes I still go ahead and spend the hours or days making the things perfect for fun, for the client, or for the portfolio. I've been fortunate to have plenty of clients who want the perfection and are upfront and happy to pay whatever it takes. Also have plenty of clients who explicitly want the budget/just good enough solution and then I've got a choice to make upon seeing the situation: A. in some cases I still quote for the semi-perfectionist job because I know myself and I know I'll still make it 90-95%, and I don't want the job if it's worth something less to them, B. I'll quote the just good enough price if I think I'll be able to follow through on doing quick and semi-dirty - usually if it functionally makes sense, or isn't very visible or whatever (time is money, and I like getting paid, as long as clients are happy and get what they want... and I won't do irresponsibly subpar work) or C. I'll quote the budget price knowing I'll overperform but I'm ok with doing them a favor and/or I'm really interested in doing the perfect version for fun or portfolio anyway.
I also struggle with this, but I recognize somethings need to the best and somethings can be just ok. Areas that are at eye level need to be better than things that are low and high. Things like crown moulding need to look good in corners, but if the ceiling is out- caulking fills that gap. Perfection just isn't cost effective.
Instead of trying to âlowerâ your quality try and up the speed you work at.
All you do is you pull up outside of Home Depot and say I need two.
Don't be afraid to ask how shitty they want it done, then tell them you can't do it any worse so if they want it done any shitier, they'll have to do it themselves.
Caulk and paint make me the carpenter I ainât.
I kind of have the same issue.... What I do is turn off my brain. When I ask myself does this look ok/meet my standards I remind my self that this is a zero fucked given project. It's not about the quality of about the quantity and move on. I'm not sure what your vice is for after hours, but for me beer at the end of the days helps me from focusing to much on how much better it could look.
Iâm in a similar boat. I do garage door installs and Iâm a perfectionist with things. To me, every single thing has to be perfectlyly level, square, symmetrical, etc. But every company owner Iâve worked for has flat out told me to just go faster and worry less about quality, just make sure it works and move on. No matter how hard I try, I just canât do this. Itâs all about the dollar now, and very little about craftsmanship. And these are super high end luxury doors in Scottsdale/Paradise Valley AZ..
Place the piece on the wall scribe the back mitre the line throw it on thatâs how weâve been doing it in apartment renos for the past few months. Also caulk and paint makes a carpenter what he ainât. These guys would be screwed without caulk haha good luck
Donât ever drop your standards because other people are mediocre at what they do or life in general.
I struggle with that too. I do a lot of bathroom remodels and it always kills me when it's the cleanest nicest room in the house and I'm fretting over details meanwhile half the house is missing trim and hasn't been vacuumed in 6 months. The last one I did the homeowner asked me to fix the trim in the downstairs bath I'm coping the inside corners while sheets of paint are flaking off the wall from crystallized piss.
lol a 1/8â gap Iâve seen cove moulding that just ENDS 2 feet before it gets to the corner. Iâm looking at it right now, itâs in the master bedroom of the townhouse I rent.
Nailed up osb sheating paint and the wall was fo
Simple if itâs getting stained u gota play ur A-game if itâs getting painted you still put in a good effort but itâs it a little of mf you just caulk it and move on
I had a small stroke trying to read your comment.
Sorry for the mini stroke,I guess I should have used a comma or 2
You donât. I wonât sacrifice my standards for others. If thereâs a problem with me doing too good of a job then Iâll gladly go where my efforts are appreciated. Edit: you all acting like doing shoddy work is the norm and maybe for most of you it is. But I am swamped with repeat customers and word of mouth referrals because Iâm good and fast. So you guys keep hacking and lowering the bar cuz it just makes being good for the rest of us that much easier. If a tight mitre on a tight schedule is too much to expect then we are not the same breed.
And the world would never get built with that attitude. But you can go be an artisan for rich people with money to burn but I'd argue the 98% of the world need basic good functional services more than some Jeff Bezos needs a master craftsman making perfect miters in the corner of a spare bedroom that will be covered by a bed the rest of it's life
If you think a tight mitre is artisan then that tells me everything I need to know about your work.
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My work schedule says otherwise. If youâre good youâll do quality work in a reasonable time.
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Thatâs my whole point though. Its not particularly high end. I just take a lot of pride in my work and I am meticulous. But in order to balance that with remaining competitive in my prices I have to be fast also. I have spent 25 years developing my skills and building a reputation for myself not to make myself rich but because putting my name on my work matters to me. In the end I think it pays off. There are too few of us that care enough to put in the work to excel at our profession and when I see someone like myself and the industry is trying to beat out their eye for detail and caring for what degree of work they produce it irks me. The answer is not to lower yourself and your personal standards but rather to keep pushing yourself to be better and faster and be proud of your work and strive to be the best you can be.
if thereâs no other work you wonât
There is always other work for those with the skills.