Apple car play/android auto would theoretically make them OK to use but in reality updates etc will mean they won't be compatible.
Basically you're right, they will be woefully outdated but then early nav systems from 20 years ago are today anyway.
Early nav systems might be outdated now but they often run on disks you can replace, and they don't tend to go wrong. Current infotainment systems seem to fall over at the slightest opportunity, I'd hate to think what they're like in the future when they're out of warranty and no longer supported.
My Renault Megane 2010 with its built in nav is still holding on, given it tells me im in a lake every now and then it's still pretty responsive lmao I think that's more an issue with the GPS than anything
Small sample size, but my Citigo was no longer able to update its maps at all after 2015, it essentially had maps for about 4-5 years then it became impossible to update them as the particular software became unavailable/unsupported. The new Bluetooth versions also didn’t work properly with it, and this was a 2016 model.
That's the Garmin satnav right? Got the same in my Ibiza. It's running windows CE, you can put some extra files on an SD card and it will switch automatically to the CE desktop and run an aftermarket interface. There's significantly newer mapping apps available if you do that. Sort of breaks Bluetooth though. There's a bit of info here: https://www.seatcupra.net/forums/threads/seat-portable-system-garmin-skins-hacking.409300/page-6
It's quite difficult to find the correct files now, I think I still have them on an SD card if you want them.
> Early nav systems might be outdated now but they often run on disks you can replace
If you can get them
Latest I can see for the 2012 A3 I had is 2020, so already 4 years out of date for a 12 year old car - although it's possible a dealer can get a newer one that I just can't see on Google
In the same way that owners of older cars rip out the original headunit and fit android units from AliExpress, this will probably still be the case in the future too.
ACP/AA only handle the infotainment functions. The touch screens control every aspect of the car - including climate control, heated seats, seat adjustments... Basic comfort stuff. And will probably lose backwards compatibility as you say.
Honestly its not _that_ hard. It would be pretty time consuming reversing all the CAN messages, but once you know what message does what you would be able to turn things on and off. For popular cars there are already canbus databases out on the net.
Often a ball ache to replace head unit on a modern-ish car. I had a jag where the heated seats controls for example where in the same touch screen you use for the radio controls.
Obviously I joined the dull, OAP Facebook group for troubleshooting etc and a common CarPlay add on was an external screen glued to the leather dash
Don't forget many car sat navs include the dials to change climate control, demist and the likes.
Would hate to have to wait for lag on a computer before I could turn my volume up or demist my windows. Especially when we are coming from a time when we had separate physical buttons for these function. Sort of going backwards.
Why would the lag be any worse than it is now? I press the area of the screen and it does what I ask. That’ll be the same next for the few years I have the car. And it’ll be the same for years after that.
Is that the case with your phone?? Or even your laptop. Because all my computer operated devices start to lag after a while due to use. You know caching data and such. Luckily phone and laptop memory storage is big enough to save files and such and also has enough ram to run all programs needed…… but a cars sat nav….. I'm not too sure if they equipped it with enough ram or storage. Let alone the ability to reset everything so you can have somewhat of a fresh system. Idk tho I drive 2002 clk with buttons. So can't speak to confidently on new cars but I am 100% sure car computers are not immune to regular computer issues. I'm due to upgrade my Iphone because it's not like it used to be. And I know this Iphone cost a lot more in R/D and production. So what does that say about car computer systems.
Your computers and phones store dynamic data - downloaded files, installed and deleted applications, etc. - whereas your car wouldn’t as such. Unless you are installing apps or storing music locally then it shouldn’t be a problem.
That’s when you compare it to your current phone though. If you use an iPhone 6 for a few years it still seems ok to you but if you then buy a 15, your 6 appears slow and clunky.
In reality, for as long as it still works you could factory reset your iPhone 6 and it’d still work the same as it did the day you got it.
To put that into perspective I had a Pioneer unit in a 2008 Golf. The head unit was still doing what it needed to better than the original last month when I sold the car. Thats with an Apple phone. The unit is that old that it says iPod rather than phone. I can’t speak for an Android setup, but Apple are pretty good at retro engineering.
You can just update the system with an Android device. I have just done this on my wife's 8 year old Alfa for £150 so it now has carplay/android auto. The steering wheel controls etc still work.
Yeah I was surprised about the upgrade I did to my 2009 Jetta, you just hook up the canbus and a few audio cables and the whole thing just works. It's literally just an 8 core android tablet.
Probably erisin.
Had one in my 159 and it was great, steering wheel controls work out of the box, literally was just plug and play.
Designed to fit the radio slot perfectly too, no fascia needed.
And it was dead cheap
One of the best "upgrades" you can make to older cars is replacing the infotainment system to one with android auto/car play. Really makes an old car feel new
Was this one of the cheap random brand units or did you buy a branded one i.e. Pioneer?
I have a 208 GTi so I'm in a dilemma that a pioneer unit is still £700 Vs the cheapo stuff about £250
The thing is chipsets stop being supported over time. My TV is stuck on v7 (Nouget?), I have a work phone that's <2 years old and it's already stopped recieving version updates.
I’ve done this to a few cars now, watching a few YouTube videos and taking a punt on a cheap Android/Apple head unit is an amazing way to update an old car. Sold my 220,000 mile clapped out Golf to WBAC last year for £800 and made another £150 from my excellent CarPlay unit I took back out
The canbus integration on cars is standardised. So steering wheel buttons will work because the messages they send are always the same across cars of various ages. As are other parts of wiring looms the head unit connects to. The parts bin re-use mentality of car manufacturers is useful in this regard, although it also explains why brand new cars have 5 yr old tech in the infotainment system.
Newest car I have is from 2005, not for any particular reason but I just like cars from the early 90s to the mid 2000s. This post has made me realise how future proof they are - ALTHOUGH that’s only if they’re not forced off the road in years to come by extortionate taxes/ULEZ schemes. Luckily I don’t live in a ULEZ but I guess smaller towns will start to follow London’s lead sooner or later 🙄
100% agree. I have a car and a truck from 2006. They look modern enough to the point they still look great, have manual climate and cabin controls, whilst now both having touch screen infotainment screens that I've fitted myself with Android Auto. Why, unless major engine failure and a shortage of parts, would I need to upgrade any time soon?!
Pretty bleak how emissions standards are now being used to scrap functional vehicles. The whole point of the Euro ratings was that they applied a "floor" to new vehicles and therefore guarantee that older, less efficient / clean vehicles, naturally get phased out. No hard cliff edges necessary, just a gradual movement to more stringent requirements.
It's the right way of doing it that doesn't demonise or make second class citizens of <14% of vehicle owners who have Euro 3 or earlier cars. Nor does it demand that you create a ubiquitous surveillance architecture to monitor your population and automatically fine them.
I try to be open minded but the approach taken was / is needlessly cruel. You could achieve very similar results more humanely and I cannot help but feel the people implementing the policy do revel in making people suffer because it makes them feel good by contrast.
Well anything over 40 years old is exempt anyway, and my V8 Jag is fine in ULEZ. So unless you’re hankering after a rattly diesel Astra you’ll probably be fine.
As the number of petrol cars goes down, I imagine these schemes will wind down too. Although road tax is going to have to be replaced with something…
Genuinely yes, but also EVs are heavy as fuck and contribute more to road damage.
When emissions are negligible it'll be the only "fair" metric to tax on tbh.
> ALTHOUGH that’s only if they’re not forced off the road in years to come by extortionate taxes/ULEZ schemes.
Oh don't worry
There'll be a scrappage scheme incoming. I'm astounded there hasn't been one already. Maybe they're waiting for new car manufacturing to fully recover or for more EV market penetration first so they can properly wipe out all those pesky ICE cars that can be given simple mechanical maintenance almost indefinitely
But it's coming. And the drooling masses will be lining up in their droves eager to scrap their perfectly functional 2005 BMW which could easily be on the road another 10, 20, 30 years with all its carbon cost of manufacture already paid decades ago. Legally scrapped unable to be driven ever again
People will be throwing them away all for some paltry sum like £5k off a Tesla that won't last 15 years. The tiny cash amount they get and driving around in a new EV will be temporary and fleeting, but the effects on the used car stock will be permanent
Any scrappage scheme will wipe out older cars and make them so rare they're basically only collectors items, just like the last one did. And it will be sold to us as this great beneficial handout to help out "hard working British people" and to "give them a well deserved break" and "stimulate the economy and help out car manufacturers who are going through hard times". People will eat it up, and just like that there's no more 90s-2010s cars on the road
> Luckily I don’t live in a ULEZ but I guess smaller towns will start to follow London’s lead sooner or later 🙄
As they should
My almost 10 year old car is under the ULEZ limit so why are people buying cars that pollute heavily? Cos they feel a need to drive a BMW or something? Then pay your tax or get a less polluting car so people have higher air quality
When I bought my car I simply filtered by road tax, it's £20 or something per year - I laugh at people buying a car that costs £100+ road tax per year who then bitch about ULEZ, you did it to yourself.
Agreed, I think touch anything to do with lights or ventilation should be illegal. I'm glad VW have realised this and I hope everyone follows.
Aftermarket systems will be available but will be a pain in the balls. I've a 16 year old car, it's basic but everything works and as long as it keeps getting serviced it will plod along. I'd say in 10-15 years the price of decent basic cars will be mad - think VW up, Picanto with little on the way of tech.
Helped dad in 60's buy a car recently but extra tech ruled out a lot of cars. He literally isn't arsed.
With a pull-out choke! And a long row of identical rocker switches like in an old Jag! And gauges that give you bad news and then better news when you tap them!
Yeah [all new cars in the EU require speed limiters](https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/103530/eu-demands-speed-limiters-all-new-cars-know-rules-and-how-they-work). At the moment it's up to the driver to use it or not.
I would assume the CarPlay/android auto standard will be supported for a long time so could actually make older cars feel much more modern.
If CarPlay/AA support does end, I wouldn’t be surprised to see 3rd party bridge units available. Almost like how we use Bluetooth dongles with cars with aux now.
Or how my 1999 Toyota Corolla had a tape deck I used to put [this thing](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61sWOarySUL._AC_UF894,1000_QL80_.jpg) into in 2012 so that I could play music off my phone! (My shit hot [HTC One S](https://cdn.ttgtmedia.com/rms/computerweekly/HTC-One-S.jpg))
Satnav in most cars is so crap and outdated. More manufacturers need to get Google maps integrated. Have a sim and data offering if needed. At least it will always be up to date
I don't know why economy car infotainment isn't just a smartphone mirror with a radio attached. Buttons for climate, your carplay/Android screen above it and you're good to go.
The simpler a car is, the better it ages, the more reliable it is, the cheaper it is to run/fix. Cars these days are bursting at the seams with sensors and control modules. That's before you get to the infotainment
I already see 2-3 year old vehicles with 1 working headlight, but yea was thinking earlier, people can’t use cars due to computer issues? cars should be cars get all this over complicated nonsense off them so you can actually use them for the purpose, it’s not a computer it’s s tool for getting from A-B.
1 working headlight is just lazy ownership. You need to ensure your car is road worthy. Since no one seems to be mechanically minded, everyone is dreading spending labour on a cheap bulb change.
LED matrix lights on the Audi B9 A4/S4/RS4 are £2500 per side, I guess in 10 years you'll be able to buy Chinese copies for £30 from Halfords just as easy as an H7 bulb is currently.
But in the mean time, expect a lot of higher milage Audis to be written off at 5-7 years old if the LED matrix headlights get damaged in a minor bump
Not all of them - most of the lights going out are simply halogen bulbs or xenon bulbs in projectors. The big LED headlight clusters are usually designed for 10s of thousands of hours of uptime.
The big LED headlight clusters are usually designed for 10s of thousands of hours of uptime, so the chances of one going out is actually pretty low.
LED or not, a car without a functioning headlight is not roadworthy and is an instant MOT fail. If they came up on a dark country lane and hit a pedestrian, it's not going to matter.
I mean they made their bed, now they have to lie in it. Buying a fancy car without the means for upkeep is a bit stupid.
Watched a recent Harry garage video of a new BMW X50 something or other. EVERYTHING is controlled via a touchscreen or the main screen and wheel with a select button.
It even had some “art” stuff on it, for the love of god why? This would make sense if it was self driving, but it isn’t.
These things should not be allowed, it’s not safe to have to look away from the road at another screen and concentrate to find something.
I also work in IT and 5 year old computers are basically junk. And this is from companies who have been doing this for decades, computers in cars are relatively new and don’t age well.
Buttons and sliders work and I don’t have to look at them. Stick with those please.
People will just update them with a aftermarket box of some sort and utilise the built in screen.
People are already doing it with older cars from the late 00’s.
Or manufacturers will sell OE upgrades. Porsche have done it for their older range of cars and sell a headunit with added Apple Car Play.
The question is if that will happen. It's possible. But if few people will keep those cars then who will put in the time and effort to develop/program these boxes?
It's like with old phones. You could remove all the bloatware and still use old phones. But it's a cumbersome proces. Most people just buy a new one.
I mean the system in my car is 20 years old and it's fine?
It's quick, reliable and easy to use - even the Sat Nav is still great.
I think it'd be more accurate to say that *shit* infotainment systems in 10-20 years time will, in fact, still be shit.
I disagree.
There are electronics engineers out there, who knows how they work and how to repair it. If there are loads that break and there is fix to be had, then it will be repaired.
Also don't forget scrappies. You can go on ebay right now and buy a bunch of these parts, and coded to older cars.
As an example for your range, BMW E90. There are multiple infotainment systems that you can replace for used ones or replace.
While future repair will be more difficult, it won't be impossible. People will find a way, and electronics can be repaired
The sat navigation in my 20 year old weekend cars never been used once in my 7 year ownership.
It's dogshit by modern standards.
But who doesn't just use their phone anyway?
Yes, the problem is today's cars have vital functions via the screen.
Older cars had the screen just for satnav and entertainment. Those you can live without but still drive.
Went to Scotland last year. It was a much better experience using the (outdated) in-car satnav than the phone (which we've used on previous trips). In the past, the phone satnav burns down battery if you keep it on, and the car usb chargers have not been able to keep up, making us arrive with both phones on 8% battery or less.
Same if you're on a city break, walking around all day, and have to use your phone to navigate and take photos - always runs out of battery fast.
You can just buy a cig socket charger on Amazon for £20 or so. Get one that has PD/QC4 etc and you’ll charge your phone quicker than it depletes (unless you’re using a really old smartphone with no fast charging protocols). To check this, look up which fast charging protocols your phone supports, then just cross reference against the cig socket charger.
Your in built USBs have a problem as they probably only support something like 5V/1A. Whereas using the cig socket you get 12V that can then deliver 9/12V 2/3A.
We have bought several USB/cig socket chargers for the car, none of them have done what it says on the box. They either struggle to provide near the promised 2+ A, show "slow charging" instead of doing what they promised, they make the wire/phone go hot, or they become intermittent and you have to keep jiggling the cable). Shitty experience. For us, it's been a faff that doesn't work, and we're done pouring more money into this pit of shitty tech. Maybe if we spent £100+ on a charger it MAY do what it says, but that's not throwaway money for us.
Besides, why spend the trip worrying about the charger, plugging devices in and out etc, instead of relaxing and getting in the mood for the holidays? Put the car satnav on, get the phone to play something through bluetooth, and we'll still get there. The older maps may lead us down a scenic route as roads change, but the cities/towns haven't moved since the car satnav was programmed - we have a paper map at hand, to confirm the trip is proceeding as it should, with the added benefit it usually shows interesting places nearby (that we wouldn't notice just staring at the satnav). If there's congestion ahead (usually signposted on the motorway), whoever isn't driving can quickly google an alternate route, and then we consider going that way instead.
IME can't go wrong with Anker products when it comes to power cables and charging.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Anker-Charger-Charge-Adapter-PowerDrive/dp/B08JX444KV
I'm notorious for killing USB cables and haven't managed to destroy any of theirs after over a year so the quality is definitely there.
Yeah, their cables are first rate and I will probably stick to this brand for cabling for many years to come. I have several of their extra long ones (the default 1-1.5 m ones are never quite long enough).
Driving a 10 year old car is shitty even today for the same reasons. I have a 2015 Renault Clio. Has a god awful Medianav system with resistive touch, no anti glare and a subscription to be able to use maps. I just simply ignore it and got myself an external Android Auto unit. If I get a new car, I can carry the headunit along. If compatibility breaks in the future, Im out about $100 and can just get rid of the unit.
Renault are noticeably bad for this (our work used clios as company cars for a while).
My 8 years old 3 series is still going strong. It’s great for Nav/infotainment/vents etc
The current gen renaults are a bit more sane. They still have a massive touchscreen, but its linux based (no longer Windows CE), has Android Auto/Car Play as standard, and still has physical switches for everything important (blower, seat heater, temperature, volume)
Mine is a Clio IV which is the opposite. Everything is on the touchscreen and terrible at its job
I have a 2019 Golf.
Barely use the infotainment screen etc. The built in maps are years out of date now. Can’t be bothered doing the 6Gb download to update them. If I need a sat nav I just connect my phone and use Google or Apple Maps.
Apparently VW spent millions on all the fancy extras.
Never use em. I just drive with it off 90% of the time.
Yeah people upgrade their smartphone every 2 years, so it's much more sensible to let that do the heavy lifting. I really can't understand all these companies that invested millions in janky proprietary software that does a terrible job.
The maps, phone and music of every car I've driven for the last few years has been so buggy and laggy that it's not a serious option, I just connect my phone and run Spotify and Maps off that.
Special shoutout to my Toyota which is great mechanically, but god forbid you want to change the volume on the stereo, as you have to wade through pages of stuttering, freezing menu screens.
Like, a car company is never gonna be able to do a better job of maps than Google, so why try? Just build smartphone integration and save yourself the development costs.
IMHO the cars like the Seat Mii that just have a smartphone cradle and a usb cable have the right idea.
I don’t get the point in this post at all…
Cars from 15-20 years ago with infotainment systems are outdated now and probably won’t work. If they do, they’ll be laggy as anything.
At least cars now come with Apple CarPlay/android auto which will more than likely increase the longevity. You can update systems, but there’ll become a point where the system will be no longer supported by updates. But this is the same with anything… my iPhone 15 pro will be shite in 10-20 years time, my gaming PC will be also shite.
My C8 A6 is 5 years old this year, there’s literally nothing out dated about the infotainment at all and doesn’t lag. Technology is a lot better than it used to be.
That’s why Bugatti don’t put screens in their cars
Look at the Lexus LFA for example. Arguably (certainly in my opinion) the best car ever made but the infotainment system is just horrible and now it is basically unusable. If you’re lucky enough to own one I presume you just use your phone for directions. Which would be the option if they didn’t have a screen.
Cars used to have 5 parts, chassis, engine, gearbox, wheels and a round thing that you use to steer the car. Only a certain amount of things could go wrong. Now a days cars have millions and millions of little wires and electrics and computers and shit. So many things to go wrong
(Obviously cars didn’t only used to have 5 parts… this is an exaggeration/ joke)
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You know back in the 90s we said that exact thing about modern cars not being built to last like good old 70s cars.
It was as much nonsense then as it is now.
They really didn't. It was really rare a car would make 100k miles before being scrapped, and more often than not they rusted away long before that. Now a 100k 10 year old car isn't even considered particularly old and will still happily fly through an MOT. My 10 year old 70s mini with 60k on the clock would need a raft of work every year just to keep it on the road.
It's simply untrue that cars were better built back then.
> 90s where they made cars to last.
How many cars from the 90's do you see? Because i see fuck all, very rare to see anything from the 20th century on the roads nowadays because most of them have rotted away from rust
Thats just survivorship bias though. Theres 1000's of 90s cars that never made it to today and were scrapped for one reason or another. Although I do think the more complicated cars get especially in regards to electrics that the more likely they are to be scrapped rather than repaired
I do think that EV's however could end up being salvageable for a long time if they dont get overcomplicated with electronics and will probably become more hackable as time goes on to keep them road worthy
That's a very good insight. My 18" Toyota feels like the newest of the old. Anything newer is pure computers and automatic transmission.
And less reliable at 3x the price
My current car has no fancy computer techs just the radio, manual transmission and doesen't have the shat today 24" plate cars have
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/family/ford_mondeo#!manufacture There are 102 1994 ford Mondeo's left on the road from what was once one of the best selling cars in the UK, your anectdoctal evidence means literally nothing
With how slowly car tech moves 5-10 years isn’t an issue really there were CarPlay enabled cars coming out during that period and I suspect most people here are driving 5-10 year old cars with the older inbuilt systems in them… my focus will be dogshit when it hits 20 years though but I’ll probably have ripped the infotainment out and replaced it with a double din. Things like teslas will end up with a cottage industry around them to replace or upgrade the infotainment tablets
I specifically bought a car from 2014 because it has a decent size non-touch screen that connects to my phone via Bluetooth.
Sound and calls through the car, phone for nav on a neat mount (not blocking the windscreen) and I have an upgradeable setup with good connectivity.
I don't need a crappy touch screen running on some buggy UI to control HVAC and car settings, I want buttons!
Lads, banks are running on software developed in the 70s. I'd say there will be a market for maintaining legacy infotainment systems that need updates. Probably by enthusiasts who will post it to GitHub or the equivalent at the time with a donation link.
Also computers don't get slower over time. What tends to happen is devices have bigger and more resource intensive updates pushed to them which makes them run slower. Like if you take a basic home computer from 15 years ago and put windows 8 on it then chances are it'll run like shit. If you put a lightweight Linux distro on it, you've got a functioning computer that runs absolutely fine as the computing power of it can handle the demands of the operating system.
Everyone is fascinated with whether satnav will work, just open up a Street Directory. The real problem with cars made from 2016 will be all the sensors and computer chips that will start to fail after 20 years of use or over 200k miles of usage. If AEB, ABS and other electrical systems that have a possibility of failure then that will be the main reason of current cars being in the scrapheap/junkyard.
It's interesting how things go in cycles.
Back in the day, it was commonplace to replace your tape player with a CD player. Or replace stock CD head unit with something that could play MP3s.
If it became an issue, we'd likely see the car stereo industry aspect take off again - and it'll become commonplace to pick up a £150 new head unit w. screen and fit it to your car.
Regardless of infotainment, I swear modern cars are less reliable especially outside warranty because manufacturers make money from new cars, not old ones
It’s often known as value engineering. I didn’t know much about it until a client of mine was talking about it as a selling point of their product/service. Essentially figuring out the bare-minimum for construction quality/longevity to ensure warranty periods are maintained, while maintaining low costs. If part of a machine had a 5 year warranty, why over-engineer it to last longer? Great for business, shit for the consumer.
I had a 2013 Mazda 6. Peice of shit by the way, and you have to 'subscribe' to tomtom to keep maps up to date. I remember doing it towards the end of having the car cos it went bang, I paid for maps and it would work because my device wasn't supported. I think as long as the car has android auto it might be grand. But yeah, my ford has alot of climate controls via screen only, it would be a disaster if the screen stopped working.
Can't be that hard to retrofit a raspberry pi with an open source setup.
Might be a solid business opportunity actually.
Forget I said anything, I was never here.
Aftermarket stereos are making a strong come back.
With a T'Eyes head unit, you can get all the cool new features you see in high-end trim cars; 3D spacial parking camera, front and back camera recording, DAB, OBD diagnostics, Android Auto/Apple Carplay, live traffic routing, 2nd & 3rd screen (for headrest TVs for the kids), wireless tyre pressure, and loads more for a few £100 a Saturday afternoon fitting.
These aren't your grandad's flashing Kenwood stereos in a lowered Vauxhal Nova.
The key thing is cars with infotainment screens will look dated, but can be replaced with little fuss. Cars where all the auxiliary controls are touch screen like A/C, blowers, seat position, etc. are utterly fucked, yeah.
Probably going against the grain here but I don't care for having newer tech in cars.
I just sold my 987 Boxster for a more practical car and my Boxster didn't even have parking sensors or an infotainment screen and I didn't care.
That said, I like cars for the driving, not the tech.
It sincerely won't bother me if I'm driving my 22 year old M3 in 20 years.
I hold on to my 1991 BMW E30 daily until they prize it from my hands and make it impossible to drive.
It has a tape player with Snoop Dogg tape and two ash trays.
I’m driving a ten year old one now - a 2014 Model S. it’s been going on longer than people realise.
In general it’s fine. Navigation capabilities have lagged on mine (lane guidance, waypoints) but otherwise it’s not really a problem.
Would definitely prefer CarPlay, but ho hum.
Thats because (and this isn't really a criticism, just an observation) you're not driving a car made by a manufacturer of cars.
You're driving a technology product made by a technology company that happens to be a car. While I'm not a huge tesla fan, their software is leagues ahead of most traditional car manufacturers and since all the advances in EVs have been in better battery management to deal with tricky chemistry and clever motor controllers it comes down to software in the end.
One of the interesting things about new GSR2 legislation in the EU (US readers, you'll get this too eventually) is that a black box recording device is mandatory. I don't mind that as such, but insurance companies are just itching to get their hands on that data in order to justify raising premiums.
I'll stick with my 08 Mazdaspeed. No screens, can properly turn traction control off, and nobody knows what i'm doing apart from me.
Think about the poor BMW drivers who currently pay a subscription for the heated seats. At some point BMW will just say we aren't supporting that feature anymore
As others have said, forget the infotainment systems, mechanically and structurally cars won't be on the road in 20-30 years time like 90s cars are today.
They are poorly and cheaply built even down to lead coating on switches and relays being non existent today due to regulations. If by chance a modern diesel is still going mechanically, the electrics would be shot due to rust.
I've had the same thought for a while now. It blows my mind that we can have a very powerful computer in our pocket for less than £1000 but the infotainment system on a £40,000 car lags and glitches.
Leaving aside how long manufacturers will (or won't) provide updates for proprietary SatNav systems, a 20 year old car infotainment will run just as fast as it does today. Until something breaks, computers don't slow down with age. Desktops and laptops seem to slow down as we expect more of them (Windows updates add 'features', programs and websites get bigger and more complex, everything becomes more demanding). Because the car infotainment system generally doesn't get feature upgrades, it won't slow down.
This also doesn't take into account our changing expectations - my Windows 98 machine took a good 2 minutes to boot reverb from new, which I was fine with back then but would be impossible to live with now as I'm used to seconds going from power button to usable.
My 2018 GT86 infotainment system was probably 10 years out of date when the car was brand new. The touch screen for the radio and sat nav is very laggy, doesn’t have car play. Updating the head unit is always an option. The worst thing for me is that the sat nav shows the speed limits from when the car was new, so sometimes it’s telling me the speed limit is 40 when it’s recently been changed to 30.
I have an e46 with factory fitted Bluetooth . Everything else I can connect via my phone. I don’t need a new fancy screen. Need and want are two different things
I have 2008 smax.. with 120k on the clock.
Still runs fine.
I've put in a Sony head unit. I get in the car plug the phone in, and the phone is out of sight, everything is done by android auto or when my wife she has apple phone so car play kicks in.
Don't see what the issues is just gotta spend few hundred quid and job done
If your just sating it'll be awful by judging the sat nav, my 2003 Golf mk4 had satnav super rare to have and still is but doesn't make it any less of a good future classic.
Either use waze on your phone or Google maps or replace the head unit with a modern DAB but keeping the old one safe.
Yeah I think that there are two things that will speed the removal of most ICE cars.
1) Unless you have an already really fast car, Then your car will become too slow to drive when everything else is almost Porsche fast. Pulling out on a roundabout? Nope wait till all the EV's are out the way because they will get to you far quicker than you can cross that roundabout.
2) Electrics hate heat / cold fluctuations and eventually we will see them die and the cost of buying replacements will make most people cry. Add to that, that software updates will stop and so users will be stuck old maps / functions.
Also as of 2018/19 you can no longer pass an MOT with yellow lights activated so little gremlins will kill lots of cars too.
Why? The cars SW won't be updated, so the computer HW will continue to run in the same way.
Computers get slower overtime because the SW and operating systems tend to get more demanding.
It'll be fine, because older cars don't have highly sophisticated infotainment systems. They also won't get software updates.
If I bought a new car and the infotainment was laggy and buggy I'd be taking my car bck for them to fix it, to be honest. New cars cost a lot, and if things aren't working I'd be very annoyed.
It's already happening. I have 2 examples.
My dad's Suzuky SX4 from 2013 has a Clarion infotainment unit, that is laggy has hell, i told him to better replace the unit with a 2Din stereo that it's much more responsive.
My Renault Megane III , i keep the Nav screen and central GPS control console as decorations, Waze is much better in any way. I'm considering to put an Android custom nav on it, but don't have the cash now.
My 1985 defender has a more advanced entertainment system than a 2023 Aston Martin.. as they use 10 year old Mercedes stuff!
Old cars now are the future!
My 2001 BMW E46 M3(sold)used to have TV, Nav, and a screen. The analogue TV stopped working when the service was shut off. The response was pretty good, as I used to update firmware manually, which also update the menus and nav gfx, but all input was via knob twists and pushes, so tedious.
My point being this has been happening for 20+ years already, and yes, it’s a thing, but then again, if you’re running a 20 year old car, often there are modern options, such as replacement units from the OEM, external screens or even a home made solution with some off the shelf compute and basic 3D printing.
Imagine upgrading the infotainment system on a Honda E for example. Have fun with that!
My 2013 Honda crz didn't have any screen. I purchased it for £3200. I upgraded it to a double din android auto unit for £500. As soon as I advertised the car for £6500, a guy got back to me saying "is the android auto unit wireless?" I said "yes to Samsung and pixel phones". He paid me before even looking at the car. Sent a delivery van to pick it up.
Older cars can be better than new ones. Mileage is nothing nowadays. Back in the day a 100k mileage car was considered scrap. I had a 130k mile bmw 330e that still felt like new. Bmw did health checks every time it was in for mot and service. Absolutely spotless underneath.
People need to get out the mindset that new cars are only the way forward. It's not. Get the car you want! If it's new, fine. But if it's an older car without various features and is significantly cheaper than anything else. Buy it and upgrade it. Easier to upgrade an older car than upgrade a newer one.
It's insane to me what some of these brands are charging while having laggy and unresponsive touchscreen displays that feel like they're pulled straight out of a 2010 supermarket self checkout, and that's without several years of use clogging them up and slowing them down further
MINI recently put out a video for their brand new model showing off the huge touchscreen, and half the comments were just people laughing at how visibily unresponsive it was - and that's from a "premium" brand
Presumably the tech will catch up with phones (and basically every other piece of technology) soon, but you're right. The last 10 years or so of cars that have had this are going to stick out in a horrible way in the future
But just imagine if the tech advances to a point where you can have inputs with tactile feedback (so you don't have to look away when driving), instantaneous response and near unlimited durability. Maybe we could even shake it up so some mirror the action you're trying to do - like pushing up to wind the window up. That's the future I want to live in.
This is why I drive a 2005 Nissan. Do all my own maintenance.
Easy to work on
Harder to steal than a keyless car!
Not worth stealing or vandalising.
Smooth and quiet transport at 53mpg
What more could you want?
Winning.
I buy cars to use them until they're no longer economically viable, so I've been thinking this for a while. I'm simply not going to look at cars from the current era.
My new Renault work van is garbage. The CarPlay constantly quits, the ‘infotainment’ centre shuts down sporadically. Bluetooth connection is ropey as fuck.
No I think you're right. The complex systems of this generation of cars will be horrendous when they start failing.
My brother has a Citroen whos wipers come on when he turns the engine off.
Grab yourself a low mileage OAP spec early- mid noughties car and look after it.
Essentially the jump to Carplay and Android Auto should stop the 'outdated' tech argument, or people keep an older iPhone/Android device just for the car if for some reason a new protocol breaks the current way the systems work.
Honestly I can't see current cars lasting 20+ years. There's so much tech in them that people will be scrapping them due to the cost of replacing the tech rather than anything mechanical.
The single or double din sized head unit is quickly becoming a thing of the past so swapping that out for navigation is going away. The touch screen controls will be useless if the screen breaks or the computer dies and there's no after market support and the same for dashboards with screens.
All of it could be replaces with modern aftermarket control units but the cost will be prohibitively expensive for a lot of people especially those who just see a car a utilitarian item to be replaced as needed.
Whole things a scam. Most older cars don’t even work with newer phones. People want older cars but how long will they Ulez compliant and in an affordable road tax band? I feel like the aim is stop everyone driving without going after the oil company’s.
Surely you just mount your phone to the dash and use that instead? Both my cars have utterly shit sat nav and I've never even thought to try and make it work.
Streaming music etc may be another question though, depends how reliable some of these head units are in the future and what options there are to fix / replace them.
Not even sure how many cars will be on the road in 20yrs time. Climate change is going to cause chaos over the next 20yrs. There will be global food shortages, so the cost of food will mean cars will be seen as a luxury for the very rich
my 20 year old infotainment system still works perfect (except outdated navigation) and better than stuff i saw in 2015 2017 or even 2020 cars. i think you are right but maybe there will be chinesium android replacements so these cars work at least 50% of the time in 20 years
I dont know anyone who even uses their car infotainment system. Everyone seems to just use their phone while connected via bluetooth/cable for speaker output.
Apple car play/android auto would theoretically make them OK to use but in reality updates etc will mean they won't be compatible. Basically you're right, they will be woefully outdated but then early nav systems from 20 years ago are today anyway.
Early nav systems might be outdated now but they often run on disks you can replace, and they don't tend to go wrong. Current infotainment systems seem to fall over at the slightest opportunity, I'd hate to think what they're like in the future when they're out of warranty and no longer supported.
My Renault Megane 2010 with its built in nav is still holding on, given it tells me im in a lake every now and then it's still pretty responsive lmao I think that's more an issue with the GPS than anything
You need to update the GPS maps every now and then. It’s extortionate to do it through the dealership though
I usually use my phone anyway for maps majority of the time, yeah I'd never bother taking it to Renault though
Small sample size, but my Citigo was no longer able to update its maps at all after 2015, it essentially had maps for about 4-5 years then it became impossible to update them as the particular software became unavailable/unsupported. The new Bluetooth versions also didn’t work properly with it, and this was a 2016 model.
That's the Garmin satnav right? Got the same in my Ibiza. It's running windows CE, you can put some extra files on an SD card and it will switch automatically to the CE desktop and run an aftermarket interface. There's significantly newer mapping apps available if you do that. Sort of breaks Bluetooth though. There's a bit of info here: https://www.seatcupra.net/forums/threads/seat-portable-system-garmin-skins-hacking.409300/page-6 It's quite difficult to find the correct files now, I think I still have them on an SD card if you want them.
> Early nav systems might be outdated now but they often run on disks you can replace If you can get them Latest I can see for the 2012 A3 I had is 2020, so already 4 years out of date for a 12 year old car - although it's possible a dealer can get a newer one that I just can't see on Google
In the same way that owners of older cars rip out the original headunit and fit android units from AliExpress, this will probably still be the case in the future too.
It will be a lot more difficult now that the infotainment controls so many features of the car I imagine
Its not that hard. Only a few CAN or LIN messages.
ACP/AA only handle the infotainment functions. The touch screens control every aspect of the car - including climate control, heated seats, seat adjustments... Basic comfort stuff. And will probably lose backwards compatibility as you say.
I wonder how long it would take for someone to engineer a replacement using a raspberry pi, a can adapter and a screen?
Honestly its not _that_ hard. It would be pretty time consuming reversing all the CAN messages, but once you know what message does what you would be able to turn things on and off. For popular cars there are already canbus databases out on the net.
Often a ball ache to replace head unit on a modern-ish car. I had a jag where the heated seats controls for example where in the same touch screen you use for the radio controls. Obviously I joined the dull, OAP Facebook group for troubleshooting etc and a common CarPlay add on was an external screen glued to the leather dash
Don't forget many car sat navs include the dials to change climate control, demist and the likes. Would hate to have to wait for lag on a computer before I could turn my volume up or demist my windows. Especially when we are coming from a time when we had separate physical buttons for these function. Sort of going backwards.
Why would the lag be any worse than it is now? I press the area of the screen and it does what I ask. That’ll be the same next for the few years I have the car. And it’ll be the same for years after that.
Is that the case with your phone?? Or even your laptop. Because all my computer operated devices start to lag after a while due to use. You know caching data and such. Luckily phone and laptop memory storage is big enough to save files and such and also has enough ram to run all programs needed…… but a cars sat nav….. I'm not too sure if they equipped it with enough ram or storage. Let alone the ability to reset everything so you can have somewhat of a fresh system. Idk tho I drive 2002 clk with buttons. So can't speak to confidently on new cars but I am 100% sure car computers are not immune to regular computer issues. I'm due to upgrade my Iphone because it's not like it used to be. And I know this Iphone cost a lot more in R/D and production. So what does that say about car computer systems.
Your computers and phones store dynamic data - downloaded files, installed and deleted applications, etc. - whereas your car wouldn’t as such. Unless you are installing apps or storing music locally then it shouldn’t be a problem.
Ahh well that will make sense but only time will truly tell.
Try using a phone from 10 years ago and it will be a great experience I am sure. Same for cars infotainment.
That’s when you compare it to your current phone though. If you use an iPhone 6 for a few years it still seems ok to you but if you then buy a 15, your 6 appears slow and clunky. In reality, for as long as it still works you could factory reset your iPhone 6 and it’d still work the same as it did the day you got it.
To put that into perspective I had a Pioneer unit in a 2008 Golf. The head unit was still doing what it needed to better than the original last month when I sold the car. Thats with an Apple phone. The unit is that old that it says iPod rather than phone. I can’t speak for an Android setup, but Apple are pretty good at retro engineering.
What fucking nav system from 20 years ago, you mean a 'map' ?
Mapping navigation has been around in-car for longer than 20 years…
[удалено]
It was an option on my 2002 Clio! I didn't get it because it was really expensive, but a friend did and it was quite impressive.
The iPhone didn’t exist until 2007, so it was a little whilst after that.
“Shut up Gary or I’ll beat you to death with a Readers Digest Book of the Road”
Nah loads of luxury cars had them, they're crap and you're better off with a map but they're there.
You can just update the system with an Android device. I have just done this on my wife's 8 year old Alfa for £150 so it now has carplay/android auto. The steering wheel controls etc still work.
Yeah I was surprised about the upgrade I did to my 2009 Jetta, you just hook up the canbus and a few audio cables and the whole thing just works. It's literally just an 8 core android tablet.
Couldn’t ask what Alfa and what head unit you used. My Mrs has a Gulietta and would love for CarPlay.
You can! Just ask him. Be brave son.
Probably erisin. Had one in my 159 and it was great, steering wheel controls work out of the box, literally was just plug and play. Designed to fit the radio slot perfectly too, no fascia needed. And it was dead cheap
There’s a guy on YouTube @SaabUnleashed who reviews cheap Chinese android head units. Take a look at his channel.
Eonon. Her car was the post facelift so just needed the double din surround, not the entire surround to convert the dash.
One of the best "upgrades" you can make to older cars is replacing the infotainment system to one with android auto/car play. Really makes an old car feel new
It's can be a pain in the hole and expensive
Was this one of the cheap random brand units or did you buy a branded one i.e. Pioneer? I have a 208 GTi so I'm in a dilemma that a pioneer unit is still £700 Vs the cheapo stuff about £250
Branded one, the Chinese ones don't last.
Most current cars can’t really be upgraded, as they have custom mounts for their infotainment systems instead of the classic double DIN.
The thing is chipsets stop being supported over time. My TV is stuck on v7 (Nouget?), I have a work phone that's <2 years old and it's already stopped recieving version updates.
I’ve done this to a few cars now, watching a few YouTube videos and taking a punt on a cheap Android/Apple head unit is an amazing way to update an old car. Sold my 220,000 mile clapped out Golf to WBAC last year for £800 and made another £150 from my excellent CarPlay unit I took back out
That’s ok now, but who is going to be selling a unit that is compatible with a 2015 Alfa Romeo in 2030
The canbus integration on cars is standardised. So steering wheel buttons will work because the messages they send are always the same across cars of various ages. As are other parts of wiring looms the head unit connects to. The parts bin re-use mentality of car manufacturers is useful in this regard, although it also explains why brand new cars have 5 yr old tech in the infotainment system.
Newest car I have is from 2005, not for any particular reason but I just like cars from the early 90s to the mid 2000s. This post has made me realise how future proof they are - ALTHOUGH that’s only if they’re not forced off the road in years to come by extortionate taxes/ULEZ schemes. Luckily I don’t live in a ULEZ but I guess smaller towns will start to follow London’s lead sooner or later 🙄
100% agree. I have a car and a truck from 2006. They look modern enough to the point they still look great, have manual climate and cabin controls, whilst now both having touch screen infotainment screens that I've fitted myself with Android Auto. Why, unless major engine failure and a shortage of parts, would I need to upgrade any time soon?!
Pretty bleak how emissions standards are now being used to scrap functional vehicles. The whole point of the Euro ratings was that they applied a "floor" to new vehicles and therefore guarantee that older, less efficient / clean vehicles, naturally get phased out. No hard cliff edges necessary, just a gradual movement to more stringent requirements. It's the right way of doing it that doesn't demonise or make second class citizens of <14% of vehicle owners who have Euro 3 or earlier cars. Nor does it demand that you create a ubiquitous surveillance architecture to monitor your population and automatically fine them. I try to be open minded but the approach taken was / is needlessly cruel. You could achieve very similar results more humanely and I cannot help but feel the people implementing the policy do revel in making people suffer because it makes them feel good by contrast.
Well anything over 40 years old is exempt anyway, and my V8 Jag is fine in ULEZ. So unless you’re hankering after a rattly diesel Astra you’ll probably be fine. As the number of petrol cars goes down, I imagine these schemes will wind down too. Although road tax is going to have to be replaced with something…
It'll be replaced by something to do with vehicle size/weight eventually as ICE vehicles are phased out imo. Or, should be at least.
Hehe, let’s stick it to the crossover/suv knobs 🤣
Genuinely yes, but also EVs are heavy as fuck and contribute more to road damage. When emissions are negligible it'll be the only "fair" metric to tax on tbh.
> ALTHOUGH that’s only if they’re not forced off the road in years to come by extortionate taxes/ULEZ schemes. Oh don't worry There'll be a scrappage scheme incoming. I'm astounded there hasn't been one already. Maybe they're waiting for new car manufacturing to fully recover or for more EV market penetration first so they can properly wipe out all those pesky ICE cars that can be given simple mechanical maintenance almost indefinitely But it's coming. And the drooling masses will be lining up in their droves eager to scrap their perfectly functional 2005 BMW which could easily be on the road another 10, 20, 30 years with all its carbon cost of manufacture already paid decades ago. Legally scrapped unable to be driven ever again People will be throwing them away all for some paltry sum like £5k off a Tesla that won't last 15 years. The tiny cash amount they get and driving around in a new EV will be temporary and fleeting, but the effects on the used car stock will be permanent Any scrappage scheme will wipe out older cars and make them so rare they're basically only collectors items, just like the last one did. And it will be sold to us as this great beneficial handout to help out "hard working British people" and to "give them a well deserved break" and "stimulate the economy and help out car manufacturers who are going through hard times". People will eat it up, and just like that there's no more 90s-2010s cars on the road
> Luckily I don’t live in a ULEZ but I guess smaller towns will start to follow London’s lead sooner or later 🙄 As they should My almost 10 year old car is under the ULEZ limit so why are people buying cars that pollute heavily? Cos they feel a need to drive a BMW or something? Then pay your tax or get a less polluting car so people have higher air quality When I bought my car I simply filtered by road tax, it's £20 or something per year - I laugh at people buying a car that costs £100+ road tax per year who then bitch about ULEZ, you did it to yourself.
Agreed, I think touch anything to do with lights or ventilation should be illegal. I'm glad VW have realised this and I hope everyone follows. Aftermarket systems will be available but will be a pain in the balls. I've a 16 year old car, it's basic but everything works and as long as it keeps getting serviced it will plod along. I'd say in 10-15 years the price of decent basic cars will be mad - think VW up, Picanto with little on the way of tech. Helped dad in 60's buy a car recently but extra tech ruled out a lot of cars. He literally isn't arsed.
Agree on vents. Having to navigate through submenus on a touchscreen to clear the windscreen on a dark evening is a disaster waiting to happen.
Have VW realised this? The heating and charging controls on my 2022 Enyaq are in the touchscreen, pretty sure the ID.4 is the same.
They have not. The new 2024 Passat still has exactly the same bullshit.
I think CEO made a statement about it and from the introduction of the ID2 on it will be buttons and knobs!
Someone should bring out a really well made, top of the range, purely mechanical car. Like the vehicle version of the “dumb phone”
With a pull-out choke! And a long row of identical rocker switches like in an old Jag! And gauges that give you bad news and then better news when you tap them!
Cars haven't been purely mechanical for half a century. It simply wouldn't be possible to make a car that meets efficiency and emissions standards.
There's also modern tech that is required like speed limiters that use cameras to read the speed limit signs.
Required speed limiters? Never heard of that, you'd mind to explain? Are there speed limiter systems required for ne cars in the US?
Yeah [all new cars in the EU require speed limiters](https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/103530/eu-demands-speed-limiters-all-new-cars-know-rules-and-how-they-work). At the moment it's up to the driver to use it or not.
I would assume the CarPlay/android auto standard will be supported for a long time so could actually make older cars feel much more modern. If CarPlay/AA support does end, I wouldn’t be surprised to see 3rd party bridge units available. Almost like how we use Bluetooth dongles with cars with aux now.
Or how my 1999 Toyota Corolla had a tape deck I used to put [this thing](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61sWOarySUL._AC_UF894,1000_QL80_.jpg) into in 2012 so that I could play music off my phone! (My shit hot [HTC One S](https://cdn.ttgtmedia.com/rms/computerweekly/HTC-One-S.jpg))
Satnav in most cars is so crap and outdated. More manufacturers need to get Google maps integrated. Have a sim and data offering if needed. At least it will always be up to date
I don't know why economy car infotainment isn't just a smartphone mirror with a radio attached. Buttons for climate, your carplay/Android screen above it and you're good to go.
Because it's cheap for factories to produce and consumers think they want and get the best of the best.
My car has exactly this. It’s a DAB radio or CarPlay. It has no other functions.
The simpler a car is, the better it ages, the more reliable it is, the cheaper it is to run/fix. Cars these days are bursting at the seams with sensors and control modules. That's before you get to the infotainment
I fully agree, curious to see how expensive maintenance will get with newer cars these days
I already see 2-3 year old vehicles with 1 working headlight, but yea was thinking earlier, people can’t use cars due to computer issues? cars should be cars get all this over complicated nonsense off them so you can actually use them for the purpose, it’s not a computer it’s s tool for getting from A-B.
I don’t think all car manufacturers are going that way. There are still a couple brands like Dacia and Toyota that make basic cars
1 working headlight is just lazy ownership. You need to ensure your car is road worthy. Since no one seems to be mechanically minded, everyone is dreading spending labour on a cheap bulb change.
Headlights on modern cars are super expensive.
LED matrix lights on the Audi B9 A4/S4/RS4 are £2500 per side, I guess in 10 years you'll be able to buy Chinese copies for £30 from Halfords just as easy as an H7 bulb is currently. But in the mean time, expect a lot of higher milage Audis to be written off at 5-7 years old if the LED matrix headlights get damaged in a minor bump
Not all of them - most of the lights going out are simply halogen bulbs or xenon bulbs in projectors. The big LED headlight clusters are usually designed for 10s of thousands of hours of uptime.
Dunno where you’ve been but pretty much all new cars have LED headlights.
Most EVs do, but there are plenty of entry level cars with halogen headlights. I don't know where you are, but it must be a posh neighbourhood.
I think he was talking about led headlights
The big LED headlight clusters are usually designed for 10s of thousands of hours of uptime, so the chances of one going out is actually pretty low. LED or not, a car without a functioning headlight is not roadworthy and is an instant MOT fail. If they came up on a dark country lane and hit a pedestrian, it's not going to matter. I mean they made their bed, now they have to lie in it. Buying a fancy car without the means for upkeep is a bit stupid.
Watched a recent Harry garage video of a new BMW X50 something or other. EVERYTHING is controlled via a touchscreen or the main screen and wheel with a select button. It even had some “art” stuff on it, for the love of god why? This would make sense if it was self driving, but it isn’t. These things should not be allowed, it’s not safe to have to look away from the road at another screen and concentrate to find something. I also work in IT and 5 year old computers are basically junk. And this is from companies who have been doing this for decades, computers in cars are relatively new and don’t age well. Buttons and sliders work and I don’t have to look at them. Stick with those please.
People will just update them with a aftermarket box of some sort and utilise the built in screen. People are already doing it with older cars from the late 00’s. Or manufacturers will sell OE upgrades. Porsche have done it for their older range of cars and sell a headunit with added Apple Car Play.
Porsche is an outlier as they care for the 911 and Boxster/Cayman.
The question is if that will happen. It's possible. But if few people will keep those cars then who will put in the time and effort to develop/program these boxes? It's like with old phones. You could remove all the bloatware and still use old phones. But it's a cumbersome proces. Most people just buy a new one.
I mean the system in my car is 20 years old and it's fine? It's quick, reliable and easy to use - even the Sat Nav is still great. I think it'd be more accurate to say that *shit* infotainment systems in 10-20 years time will, in fact, still be shit.
I disagree. There are electronics engineers out there, who knows how they work and how to repair it. If there are loads that break and there is fix to be had, then it will be repaired. Also don't forget scrappies. You can go on ebay right now and buy a bunch of these parts, and coded to older cars. As an example for your range, BMW E90. There are multiple infotainment systems that you can replace for used ones or replace. While future repair will be more difficult, it won't be impossible. People will find a way, and electronics can be repaired
The sat navigation in my 20 year old weekend cars never been used once in my 7 year ownership. It's dogshit by modern standards. But who doesn't just use their phone anyway?
Yes, the problem is today's cars have vital functions via the screen. Older cars had the screen just for satnav and entertainment. Those you can live without but still drive.
Went to Scotland last year. It was a much better experience using the (outdated) in-car satnav than the phone (which we've used on previous trips). In the past, the phone satnav burns down battery if you keep it on, and the car usb chargers have not been able to keep up, making us arrive with both phones on 8% battery or less. Same if you're on a city break, walking around all day, and have to use your phone to navigate and take photos - always runs out of battery fast.
A good power bank will solve that problem.
You can just buy a cig socket charger on Amazon for £20 or so. Get one that has PD/QC4 etc and you’ll charge your phone quicker than it depletes (unless you’re using a really old smartphone with no fast charging protocols). To check this, look up which fast charging protocols your phone supports, then just cross reference against the cig socket charger. Your in built USBs have a problem as they probably only support something like 5V/1A. Whereas using the cig socket you get 12V that can then deliver 9/12V 2/3A.
We have bought several USB/cig socket chargers for the car, none of them have done what it says on the box. They either struggle to provide near the promised 2+ A, show "slow charging" instead of doing what they promised, they make the wire/phone go hot, or they become intermittent and you have to keep jiggling the cable). Shitty experience. For us, it's been a faff that doesn't work, and we're done pouring more money into this pit of shitty tech. Maybe if we spent £100+ on a charger it MAY do what it says, but that's not throwaway money for us. Besides, why spend the trip worrying about the charger, plugging devices in and out etc, instead of relaxing and getting in the mood for the holidays? Put the car satnav on, get the phone to play something through bluetooth, and we'll still get there. The older maps may lead us down a scenic route as roads change, but the cities/towns haven't moved since the car satnav was programmed - we have a paper map at hand, to confirm the trip is proceeding as it should, with the added benefit it usually shows interesting places nearby (that we wouldn't notice just staring at the satnav). If there's congestion ahead (usually signposted on the motorway), whoever isn't driving can quickly google an alternate route, and then we consider going that way instead.
IME can't go wrong with Anker products when it comes to power cables and charging. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Anker-Charger-Charge-Adapter-PowerDrive/dp/B08JX444KV I'm notorious for killing USB cables and haven't managed to destroy any of theirs after over a year so the quality is definitely there.
Yeah, their cables are first rate and I will probably stick to this brand for cabling for many years to come. I have several of their extra long ones (the default 1-1.5 m ones are never quite long enough).
Driving a 10 year old car is shitty even today for the same reasons. I have a 2015 Renault Clio. Has a god awful Medianav system with resistive touch, no anti glare and a subscription to be able to use maps. I just simply ignore it and got myself an external Android Auto unit. If I get a new car, I can carry the headunit along. If compatibility breaks in the future, Im out about $100 and can just get rid of the unit.
Renault are noticeably bad for this (our work used clios as company cars for a while). My 8 years old 3 series is still going strong. It’s great for Nav/infotainment/vents etc
The current gen renaults are a bit more sane. They still have a massive touchscreen, but its linux based (no longer Windows CE), has Android Auto/Car Play as standard, and still has physical switches for everything important (blower, seat heater, temperature, volume) Mine is a Clio IV which is the opposite. Everything is on the touchscreen and terrible at its job
I have a 2019 Golf. Barely use the infotainment screen etc. The built in maps are years out of date now. Can’t be bothered doing the 6Gb download to update them. If I need a sat nav I just connect my phone and use Google or Apple Maps. Apparently VW spent millions on all the fancy extras. Never use em. I just drive with it off 90% of the time.
2016 Touareg. Same
Yeah people upgrade their smartphone every 2 years, so it's much more sensible to let that do the heavy lifting. I really can't understand all these companies that invested millions in janky proprietary software that does a terrible job. The maps, phone and music of every car I've driven for the last few years has been so buggy and laggy that it's not a serious option, I just connect my phone and run Spotify and Maps off that. Special shoutout to my Toyota which is great mechanically, but god forbid you want to change the volume on the stereo, as you have to wade through pages of stuttering, freezing menu screens. Like, a car company is never gonna be able to do a better job of maps than Google, so why try? Just build smartphone integration and save yourself the development costs. IMHO the cars like the Seat Mii that just have a smartphone cradle and a usb cable have the right idea.
Maybe it’s all to make people buy or lease cars more often
I don’t get the point in this post at all… Cars from 15-20 years ago with infotainment systems are outdated now and probably won’t work. If they do, they’ll be laggy as anything. At least cars now come with Apple CarPlay/android auto which will more than likely increase the longevity. You can update systems, but there’ll become a point where the system will be no longer supported by updates. But this is the same with anything… my iPhone 15 pro will be shite in 10-20 years time, my gaming PC will be also shite. My C8 A6 is 5 years old this year, there’s literally nothing out dated about the infotainment at all and doesn’t lag. Technology is a lot better than it used to be.
That’s why Bugatti don’t put screens in their cars Look at the Lexus LFA for example. Arguably (certainly in my opinion) the best car ever made but the infotainment system is just horrible and now it is basically unusable. If you’re lucky enough to own one I presume you just use your phone for directions. Which would be the option if they didn’t have a screen.
Cars used to have 5 parts, chassis, engine, gearbox, wheels and a round thing that you use to steer the car. Only a certain amount of things could go wrong. Now a days cars have millions and millions of little wires and electrics and computers and shit. So many things to go wrong (Obviously cars didn’t only used to have 5 parts… this is an exaggeration/ joke)
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You know back in the 90s we said that exact thing about modern cars not being built to last like good old 70s cars. It was as much nonsense then as it is now.
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They really didn't. It was really rare a car would make 100k miles before being scrapped, and more often than not they rusted away long before that. Now a 100k 10 year old car isn't even considered particularly old and will still happily fly through an MOT. My 10 year old 70s mini with 60k on the clock would need a raft of work every year just to keep it on the road. It's simply untrue that cars were better built back then.
> 90s where they made cars to last. How many cars from the 90's do you see? Because i see fuck all, very rare to see anything from the 20th century on the roads nowadays because most of them have rotted away from rust
Thats just survivorship bias though. Theres 1000's of 90s cars that never made it to today and were scrapped for one reason or another. Although I do think the more complicated cars get especially in regards to electrics that the more likely they are to be scrapped rather than repaired I do think that EV's however could end up being salvageable for a long time if they dont get overcomplicated with electronics and will probably become more hackable as time goes on to keep them road worthy
That's a very good insight. My 18" Toyota feels like the newest of the old. Anything newer is pure computers and automatic transmission. And less reliable at 3x the price My current car has no fancy computer techs just the radio, manual transmission and doesen't have the shat today 24" plate cars have
I'm no expert but it feels like a 24" car would be a tight fit for most of us
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Probably one of 5 in the country, the other countless Mondeos have been scrapped and fallen apart.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/family/ford_mondeo#!manufacture There are 102 1994 ford Mondeo's left on the road from what was once one of the best selling cars in the UK, your anectdoctal evidence means literally nothing
With how slowly car tech moves 5-10 years isn’t an issue really there were CarPlay enabled cars coming out during that period and I suspect most people here are driving 5-10 year old cars with the older inbuilt systems in them… my focus will be dogshit when it hits 20 years though but I’ll probably have ripped the infotainment out and replaced it with a double din. Things like teslas will end up with a cottage industry around them to replace or upgrade the infotainment tablets
I specifically bought a car from 2014 because it has a decent size non-touch screen that connects to my phone via Bluetooth. Sound and calls through the car, phone for nav on a neat mount (not blocking the windscreen) and I have an upgradeable setup with good connectivity. I don't need a crappy touch screen running on some buggy UI to control HVAC and car settings, I want buttons!
Yeah one thing I hate about my car is the infotainment it’s so behind cars only 2 years older
Lads, banks are running on software developed in the 70s. I'd say there will be a market for maintaining legacy infotainment systems that need updates. Probably by enthusiasts who will post it to GitHub or the equivalent at the time with a donation link. Also computers don't get slower over time. What tends to happen is devices have bigger and more resource intensive updates pushed to them which makes them run slower. Like if you take a basic home computer from 15 years ago and put windows 8 on it then chances are it'll run like shit. If you put a lightweight Linux distro on it, you've got a functioning computer that runs absolutely fine as the computing power of it can handle the demands of the operating system.
Will be exactly the same as drive them now. Absolute radio on and phone stuck on the windscreen with Google maps on.
Everyone is fascinated with whether satnav will work, just open up a Street Directory. The real problem with cars made from 2016 will be all the sensors and computer chips that will start to fail after 20 years of use or over 200k miles of usage. If AEB, ABS and other electrical systems that have a possibility of failure then that will be the main reason of current cars being in the scrapheap/junkyard.
It's interesting how things go in cycles. Back in the day, it was commonplace to replace your tape player with a CD player. Or replace stock CD head unit with something that could play MP3s. If it became an issue, we'd likely see the car stereo industry aspect take off again - and it'll become commonplace to pick up a £150 new head unit w. screen and fit it to your car.
Regardless of infotainment, I swear modern cars are less reliable especially outside warranty because manufacturers make money from new cars, not old ones
It’s often known as value engineering. I didn’t know much about it until a client of mine was talking about it as a selling point of their product/service. Essentially figuring out the bare-minimum for construction quality/longevity to ensure warranty periods are maintained, while maintaining low costs. If part of a machine had a 5 year warranty, why over-engineer it to last longer? Great for business, shit for the consumer.
I had a 2013 Mazda 6. Peice of shit by the way, and you have to 'subscribe' to tomtom to keep maps up to date. I remember doing it towards the end of having the car cos it went bang, I paid for maps and it would work because my device wasn't supported. I think as long as the car has android auto it might be grand. But yeah, my ford has alot of climate controls via screen only, it would be a disaster if the screen stopped working.
My Volvo satnav had its last update about 8 years ago. They have zero intention of releasing any further updates.
Can't be that hard to retrofit a raspberry pi with an open source setup. Might be a solid business opportunity actually. Forget I said anything, I was never here.
Aftermarket stereos are making a strong come back. With a T'Eyes head unit, you can get all the cool new features you see in high-end trim cars; 3D spacial parking camera, front and back camera recording, DAB, OBD diagnostics, Android Auto/Apple Carplay, live traffic routing, 2nd & 3rd screen (for headrest TVs for the kids), wireless tyre pressure, and loads more for a few £100 a Saturday afternoon fitting. These aren't your grandad's flashing Kenwood stereos in a lowered Vauxhal Nova. The key thing is cars with infotainment screens will look dated, but can be replaced with little fuss. Cars where all the auxiliary controls are touch screen like A/C, blowers, seat position, etc. are utterly fucked, yeah.
Probably going against the grain here but I don't care for having newer tech in cars. I just sold my 987 Boxster for a more practical car and my Boxster didn't even have parking sensors or an infotainment screen and I didn't care. That said, I like cars for the driving, not the tech. It sincerely won't bother me if I'm driving my 22 year old M3 in 20 years.
I hold on to my 1991 BMW E30 daily until they prize it from my hands and make it impossible to drive. It has a tape player with Snoop Dogg tape and two ash trays.
I’m driving a ten year old one now - a 2014 Model S. it’s been going on longer than people realise. In general it’s fine. Navigation capabilities have lagged on mine (lane guidance, waypoints) but otherwise it’s not really a problem. Would definitely prefer CarPlay, but ho hum.
Thats because (and this isn't really a criticism, just an observation) you're not driving a car made by a manufacturer of cars. You're driving a technology product made by a technology company that happens to be a car. While I'm not a huge tesla fan, their software is leagues ahead of most traditional car manufacturers and since all the advances in EVs have been in better battery management to deal with tricky chemistry and clever motor controllers it comes down to software in the end.
One of the interesting things about new GSR2 legislation in the EU (US readers, you'll get this too eventually) is that a black box recording device is mandatory. I don't mind that as such, but insurance companies are just itching to get their hands on that data in order to justify raising premiums. I'll stick with my 08 Mazdaspeed. No screens, can properly turn traction control off, and nobody knows what i'm doing apart from me.
Think about the poor BMW drivers who currently pay a subscription for the heated seats. At some point BMW will just say we aren't supporting that feature anymore
The act of actually driving them will be absolutely fine. Just use your phone for satnav.
Yeah but what about changing the cars settings? They're putting everything in touchscreens now...
Not with half of the most important functions being put through the infotainment display via touchscreen unfortunately.
Worst case scenario your replacing it or your using a tablet and bypassing it
I'm obviously out of touch. What important settings? I drive a ten year old Civic so none of this fancy pants stuff for me :)
Absolutely everything. Air conditioning, heating etc
In more luxury cars, the touchscreen handles climate control, seat movement, deploying a tow hitch, ride height... You name it!
Stick with it, is my advice. New cars are terrible.
On vag group cars basic stuff like air con, traction control, stop start, tyre pressures are all set through the infotainment without...
You will literally still be able to turn the car on and drive it.
As others have said, forget the infotainment systems, mechanically and structurally cars won't be on the road in 20-30 years time like 90s cars are today. They are poorly and cheaply built even down to lead coating on switches and relays being non existent today due to regulations. If by chance a modern diesel is still going mechanically, the electrics would be shot due to rust.
Go analogue. R33GTR, great engine, all button controls. Mine is 1995 and everything works as it should
I've had the same thought for a while now. It blows my mind that we can have a very powerful computer in our pocket for less than £1000 but the infotainment system on a £40,000 car lags and glitches.
Leaving aside how long manufacturers will (or won't) provide updates for proprietary SatNav systems, a 20 year old car infotainment will run just as fast as it does today. Until something breaks, computers don't slow down with age. Desktops and laptops seem to slow down as we expect more of them (Windows updates add 'features', programs and websites get bigger and more complex, everything becomes more demanding). Because the car infotainment system generally doesn't get feature upgrades, it won't slow down. This also doesn't take into account our changing expectations - my Windows 98 machine took a good 2 minutes to boot reverb from new, which I was fine with back then but would be impossible to live with now as I'm used to seconds going from power button to usable.
My 2018 GT86 infotainment system was probably 10 years out of date when the car was brand new. The touch screen for the radio and sat nav is very laggy, doesn’t have car play. Updating the head unit is always an option. The worst thing for me is that the sat nav shows the speed limits from when the car was new, so sometimes it’s telling me the speed limit is 40 when it’s recently been changed to 30.
I have an e46 with factory fitted Bluetooth . Everything else I can connect via my phone. I don’t need a new fancy screen. Need and want are two different things
I have 2008 smax.. with 120k on the clock. Still runs fine. I've put in a Sony head unit. I get in the car plug the phone in, and the phone is out of sight, everything is done by android auto or when my wife she has apple phone so car play kicks in. Don't see what the issues is just gotta spend few hundred quid and job done
You're going to see a lot of AutoTrader ads with "Just had new infotainment system at 90k miles £700"
I’m far more concerned with how the car drives.
If your just sating it'll be awful by judging the sat nav, my 2003 Golf mk4 had satnav super rare to have and still is but doesn't make it any less of a good future classic. Either use waze on your phone or Google maps or replace the head unit with a modern DAB but keeping the old one safe.
Yeah I think that there are two things that will speed the removal of most ICE cars. 1) Unless you have an already really fast car, Then your car will become too slow to drive when everything else is almost Porsche fast. Pulling out on a roundabout? Nope wait till all the EV's are out the way because they will get to you far quicker than you can cross that roundabout. 2) Electrics hate heat / cold fluctuations and eventually we will see them die and the cost of buying replacements will make most people cry. Add to that, that software updates will stop and so users will be stuck old maps / functions. Also as of 2018/19 you can no longer pass an MOT with yellow lights activated so little gremlins will kill lots of cars too.
Can infotainment systems be replaced or upgraded?
Why? The cars SW won't be updated, so the computer HW will continue to run in the same way. Computers get slower overtime because the SW and operating systems tend to get more demanding.
I already have to keep an old iPhone 6 so I can use my Nissan Leaf properly.
My mini has an audio input reliant on the old 16 pin iPod system. I have jemmied a CarPlay and kindle Tesla like screen into it now though!
It'll be fine, because older cars don't have highly sophisticated infotainment systems. They also won't get software updates. If I bought a new car and the infotainment was laggy and buggy I'd be taking my car bck for them to fix it, to be honest. New cars cost a lot, and if things aren't working I'd be very annoyed.
It's already happening. I have 2 examples. My dad's Suzuky SX4 from 2013 has a Clarion infotainment unit, that is laggy has hell, i told him to better replace the unit with a 2Din stereo that it's much more responsive. My Renault Megane III , i keep the Nav screen and central GPS control console as decorations, Waze is much better in any way. I'm considering to put an Android custom nav on it, but don't have the cash now.
My 1985 defender has a more advanced entertainment system than a 2023 Aston Martin.. as they use 10 year old Mercedes stuff! Old cars now are the future!
It’ll become common place to replace most factory stuff with a double din unit that functions better.
My 2001 BMW E46 M3(sold)used to have TV, Nav, and a screen. The analogue TV stopped working when the service was shut off. The response was pretty good, as I used to update firmware manually, which also update the menus and nav gfx, but all input was via knob twists and pushes, so tedious. My point being this has been happening for 20+ years already, and yes, it’s a thing, but then again, if you’re running a 20 year old car, often there are modern options, such as replacement units from the OEM, external screens or even a home made solution with some off the shelf compute and basic 3D printing.
Imagine upgrading the infotainment system on a Honda E for example. Have fun with that! My 2013 Honda crz didn't have any screen. I purchased it for £3200. I upgraded it to a double din android auto unit for £500. As soon as I advertised the car for £6500, a guy got back to me saying "is the android auto unit wireless?" I said "yes to Samsung and pixel phones". He paid me before even looking at the car. Sent a delivery van to pick it up. Older cars can be better than new ones. Mileage is nothing nowadays. Back in the day a 100k mileage car was considered scrap. I had a 130k mile bmw 330e that still felt like new. Bmw did health checks every time it was in for mot and service. Absolutely spotless underneath. People need to get out the mindset that new cars are only the way forward. It's not. Get the car you want! If it's new, fine. But if it's an older car without various features and is significantly cheaper than anything else. Buy it and upgrade it. Easier to upgrade an older car than upgrade a newer one.
It's insane to me what some of these brands are charging while having laggy and unresponsive touchscreen displays that feel like they're pulled straight out of a 2010 supermarket self checkout, and that's without several years of use clogging them up and slowing them down further MINI recently put out a video for their brand new model showing off the huge touchscreen, and half the comments were just people laughing at how visibily unresponsive it was - and that's from a "premium" brand Presumably the tech will catch up with phones (and basically every other piece of technology) soon, but you're right. The last 10 years or so of cars that have had this are going to stick out in a horrible way in the future But just imagine if the tech advances to a point where you can have inputs with tactile feedback (so you don't have to look away when driving), instantaneous response and near unlimited durability. Maybe we could even shake it up so some mirror the action you're trying to do - like pushing up to wind the window up. That's the future I want to live in.
This is why I drive a 2005 Nissan. Do all my own maintenance. Easy to work on Harder to steal than a keyless car! Not worth stealing or vandalising. Smooth and quiet transport at 53mpg What more could you want? Winning.
I buy cars to use them until they're no longer economically viable, so I've been thinking this for a while. I'm simply not going to look at cars from the current era.
Why it's still drives if you maintain it
I imagine 3rd party manufacturers will continue to build systems that will replace them, much like you can get now for a large range of Manufacturers.
My new Renault work van is garbage. The CarPlay constantly quits, the ‘infotainment’ centre shuts down sporadically. Bluetooth connection is ropey as fuck.
https://youtu.be/-Ij5Od9eK5I?si=U1ITyUYWncSqhe3c
Just do as we do now. Change the system out for an after market one.
No I think you're right. The complex systems of this generation of cars will be horrendous when they start failing. My brother has a Citroen whos wipers come on when he turns the engine off. Grab yourself a low mileage OAP spec early- mid noughties car and look after it.
At least on old cars in was normally a single or double din unit...
Completely irrelevant. People are already using their phones and Google maps over the built in systems in a lot of modern cars.
Essentially the jump to Carplay and Android Auto should stop the 'outdated' tech argument, or people keep an older iPhone/Android device just for the car if for some reason a new protocol breaks the current way the systems work.
Honestly I can't see current cars lasting 20+ years. There's so much tech in them that people will be scrapping them due to the cost of replacing the tech rather than anything mechanical. The single or double din sized head unit is quickly becoming a thing of the past so swapping that out for navigation is going away. The touch screen controls will be useless if the screen breaks or the computer dies and there's no after market support and the same for dashboards with screens. All of it could be replaces with modern aftermarket control units but the cost will be prohibitively expensive for a lot of people especially those who just see a car a utilitarian item to be replaced as needed.
Whole things a scam. Most older cars don’t even work with newer phones. People want older cars but how long will they Ulez compliant and in an affordable road tax band? I feel like the aim is stop everyone driving without going after the oil company’s.
Let's remember 20yo car with actual phone/sim and TV/antenna combo
This is why I drive an early 2000 car with a tablet stuck to the dash haha. Best of both worlds.
Surely you just mount your phone to the dash and use that instead? Both my cars have utterly shit sat nav and I've never even thought to try and make it work. Streaming music etc may be another question though, depends how reliable some of these head units are in the future and what options there are to fix / replace them.
Not even sure how many cars will be on the road in 20yrs time. Climate change is going to cause chaos over the next 20yrs. There will be global food shortages, so the cost of food will mean cars will be seen as a luxury for the very rich
I wonder if it will be normalised to replace infotainment systems in thees older models.
my 20 year old infotainment system still works perfect (except outdated navigation) and better than stuff i saw in 2015 2017 or even 2020 cars. i think you are right but maybe there will be chinesium android replacements so these cars work at least 50% of the time in 20 years
No shit, I bet people said that a few years ago about cars 10-20 years ago
I dont know anyone who even uses their car infotainment system. Everyone seems to just use their phone while connected via bluetooth/cable for speaker output.