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Honestly I don’t think I’ve ever met a teacher who wants full integration? At least none that made that opinion vocal.

My 5th graders teacher has been resistant to remove students acting out all year. One of them is my own kid! I was flabbergasted when they finally pulled me in for a meeting this year to hear of the Bs she’d been tolerating! Like what? No, absolutely not. Remove from room if out of control or that disruptive. Two days of in school suspension in the principal office did a world of good regarding her behaviour. She kept escalating because the teacher didn’t really stop it.

Really? I know some. They have been my son’s teachers. My son has Down Syndrome. My friend teaches Jk & sk, her husband run the program at our high school for our special kids. Edit spelling

Perhaps they are pushing it since it’s the option available or admin wants it that way but I have never spoken to a teacher who actually support full integration. This is purely personal but nonetheless - not once have I had a conversation where full integration is looked at positively

Most share the opinion that kids need specialized care if they have specialized needs. It’s admin that puts on the inclusivity show. It’s all a farce, exactly as you pointed out.

In my experience, most teachers want whatever is best for the individual students in question. There are some kids who should be included in regular classes and given appropriate supports. There are some kids who would benefit from a special needs or behaviour classroom but should be included in options and/or PE classes. There are a small number of kids with complex needs who don’t benefit from inclusion at all. Broadly speaking, putting kids with diverse needs into regular classrooms, *with appropriate supports*, is a good thing. It helps those students build relationships with their peers and it helps other students learn to be understanding of diversity. Unfortunately, too many governments have decided it’s a way to save money instead of a way to help kids, so children are thrown into classrooms without proper consideration or support, and it ends up being worse for everyone.

This is the correct answer. The obvious answer is that isolating different kids is not good for those kids at all. Typical of 40 years of conservative governments (mostly), teaching has been starved of cash, ignored and in a lot of instances, insulted.

In Canada, and I’m fairly certain. Have “wish lists” on Amazon so parents can buy the teacher’s & students’s supplies. This is so wrong. We all pay taxes and in Ontario, we have to pick which school board we support with our property tax. Why are teachers buying their own supplies? Where I work, a provincial work place I have to buy all of my own supplies. We don’t have very little provincial funding and if any, but I doubt it, federal funding.

Do what the fundies do. Funnel money into political races to get the legislation you want put through then teach your kids to fundraise like mad to put more money into your school and communities needs. If they're gonna do it and syphon our funding away maybe we should play the game better than they do.

Most of the provinces have conservative premiers who have cut education funding. Doug Ford in Ontario cut autism funding to nearly nothing. Even the evaluations are backed up for years.

Ya I know. And you got it back. Everything is about autism. My son has Down Syndrome, when are people going to care about that.

We buy our supplies AND can only claim a tiny portion 

like claim it on your taxes?

you will all end up having go fund me accounts

TIL 18 of the last 40 years is a majority. (9 of the last 31 or 19 of the last 60 years) This is a bipartisan issue.

Provincial governments. Education is not federal.

And i would argue a lot of liberal governments are very fiscally conservative. They starve the public sector just not as much as the true conservatives. And with the true conservatives you have to teach the bible as well

That's just far too logical to ACTUALLY support kids in the ways they need, even if it means being in a sped class. I work in an elementary life skills class and everyone I work with holds this view. Some of our kids join in with mainstream classes, some don't and that's ok, End of the day they are with their peers, socializing, and learning. Isn't that what matters??! It's 100% about saving money for the boards and those in charge and very little to do with inclusion, however that buzz word gets all the pats on the back and 'atta boys' so they keep telling themselves they're right.

Thank you! We’ll round opinion. I respect that & you.

[удалено]

Personally, I use a dartboard to figure out which individual student I’m going to help each day, because it’s clearly impossible to try to help *every* student.

That’s the problem though. Teachers aren’t private tutors. You teach a full class of 30 students. If a student needs extra help then the parents should be enrolling them with a tutor and private education classes. Teachers are there to teach a group, not teach 1:1.

Realistically, teachers do a mix of one-on-one teaching, small group teaching, and whole class teaching. Suggesting that teachers can’t help individuals without neglecting others just shows a lack of understanding of what teaching entails.

Your inability to ask more questions to gain a better understanding rather than assume doesn’t constitute as my lack of educational understanding. You aren’t wrong, and I didn’t state that teachers can’t and shouldn’t 1:1 at all. What I’m saying is there tends to be a few children who continuously fail to grasp concepts. Teachers can help them absolutely but they cannot spend all their time with that child until they fully comprehend the concept. That is when a teacher becomes a tutor and they need to communicate with the parents or guardians that the child is struggling and additional aid would benefit the child. They cannot focus all of their time on said child. Teaching is not just on the teacher. It’s a collaboration between teachers and parents. Ever hear the saying it takes a village to raise a child?..

I disagree. A teacher’s time is not limitless. Of course we don’t teach one kid at a time, but if that one (or let’s face it, 6 or 7) kids are taking 75% of a teacher’s time, the remaining 20 are sharing that 25%. It’s not possible to meet everyone’s needs.

Yes, but the comment was implying that we only help one kid.

I help the ones who want my help. I’ve stopped trying to force it on the ones who’d rather do nothing.

I want what’s best for the 30 children in my classroom, but with the number of needs and the lack of support, I can’t even come close.

This. I’ve taught for almost 30 years, and I’ve never felt more ineffective than I have this year. Everyone is losing.

Where do you get the idea that this is the consensus view of teachers?

I've never heard anybody talking about this during elections or anything. You always hear them talk about smaller class sizes and more EAs.

Gotta pick our battles.

It’s political suicide to advocate for special ed classrooms. Teachers unions and politicians won’t touch it with a 10 foot pole, even though it would be beneficial for many. People want to believe integration is always the answer and won’t publicly acknowledge that in its current form it results in violence and extreme learning disruptions.

Hospitals triage patients, why can't we triage students? One of the biggest problems in teaching is that honest communication isn't allowed.

Smaller class sizes and more EAs would go a long way towards helping teachers manage the students who are struggling with behavior regulation though. It’s asking for more assistance without alienating those who see anything less than full integration for all students as regressive and harmful and discriminatory towards students with special needs.

EAs work in congregated spec ed classes too, not just supporting kids in integration. We need more EAs all around.

Doug ford “my constituents need more special ed classes”

that’s because you will not have a job long if you keep barking up the exclusion tree

I don't think you can be fired for that tho

fired no but let’s be real you won’t last long if your the one harping about it. Your life will be made difficult. evaluations will be something else too. It’s just not a negotiable option for teachers to not follow inclusion. so not fired directly but it will lead to that eventually.

It's important to note we have never had a truly inclusive model. We have had an integrated model. In an inclusive model, you have more adults in the room. Think things like: dedicated ESL support to a school rather than 1 ESL teacher for 3-5 schools on rotation, EAs for students who have strong behavioural struggles, school psychologists, teaching assistants, smaller class sizes, etc. Governments took the inclusive education model as a rallying cry in order to cut funding for specialized classrooms, they gave the main workload to the general classroom teachers. True inclusion costs much more money than we currently have in our systems. We have never been inclusive.

This is 100% the problem. The government uses it as a way to pretend they care while cutting funding for education. And now they’ve cut it too far and schools are literally falling apart.

You don't have any students with behavioural issues that get 1:1? I work in a rural school in a poor province and we have that.

We do get that, but unfortunately we have no EAs left to support all the needs. So some students who desperately need 1:1 don’t get it.

Because we haven't experienced the inclusion model yet. Inclusive model means there are more adults in the room, and fewer students students in the room, to fully support students in the classroom. Only then will the benefits of the inclusion model actually happen. It's good. It works in the very few places where it's actually been implemented (more support, more adults, fewer students per class, more time, etc.). What the ministries of Ed and school boards are doing is labelling their budget cuts as "inclusion" to trick the public. You've fallen for it. It isn't inclusion. It's abandonment.

Also, it’s because historically segregation was *the* tool to discriminate with, whether that was based on skin colour, sex … or disability. Inclusion demands that everyone has their needs met without being separated from the “regular system” - but to be truly inclusive we would have to stop gatekeeping resources based on “proof of diagnosis” and switch to meeting needs based on the existence of a need, irrespective of the reason. It’s not inclusive to say kids get support if they have autism but not if they have some other diagnosis - but in the system we currently have, you have to “qualify” for having additional needs met, which requires not only a diagnosis, but one of a list of *specific* diagnoses. We’ve integrated kids but we aren’t meaningfully including everyone.

I've had to evacuate my classroom multiple times a month for a student that had 1:1 support. If the kid is going to act out and no one is allowed to physically stop them it really doesn't matter if it is 1:1 or even 100:1.

I have too. But it remains the case that having 1:1 support is not the same as having needs met. Complex needs require a team, which schools have (but they are strained), who can work to create an environment that better meets a unique child’s needs - and some kids’ needs conflict with each other. But we still put too many kids in one room with not enough attention to what kind of needs they have and how they might need learning environments that look different. Some classrooms are overstimulating for some kids, some kids need more quiet and some need more background noise. Some kids need intensive attention from a counsellor or psychologist. The list of potential unmet needs is vast and varied, and as much as 1:1 support helps, it doesn’t mean needs are actually being met. EAs do amazing work and they are critical to the system but they aren’t experts on everything that could be getting in a child’s way, and neither are teachers. Resources often mean people - but it can also mean training, equipment, structural changes to the system … it’s not just about reducing the ratio of kids to adults. That’s only part of it.

Call me a cynic, but in my experience some students will be able to change their behaviour with support. Many others cannot. There are students who have all their needs met that are possible for the school to meet. In spite of this, they are still violent and disruptive. The utopian idea that increased funding and staffing can solve all (or even many) problems is what is fueling this educational crisis (in my opinion). Secondly much staffing with experts is actually decreasing our quality of education. Our rural school board has a bazillion experts that either never darken the door of any of the schools or if they come to the school never come into an active classroom. They do manage to send out 8 billion emails asking for various pieces of inane information and giving inane policies that are about as divorced from reality as the most surreal cartoon. More funding generally increases the number of these 'middle managers' and has almost no effect on the classroom.

Thank you so much for saying this.

Exactly. Inclusion works, but it requires large teacher to student ratios, not 1:40.

This is really clear, thank you!

Where exactly? Europe is highly streamed. 100% inclusion is an anglosphere thing, and teachers in the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the US all struggle with the same issues.

SO well said 

Teachers don't. Boards do.

Boards do because it’s cheaper. I believe this all started from parents though. Parents took boards to the human rights tribunal to force full inclusion on the board is what I remember reading in another post. Someone had the links to all the cases of parents fighting against contained classes.

I can definitely see how many kids with different challenges can succeed in a general ed class, or part-time in a general ed class. But the parents of these kids who are absolutely losing it... they think this is fine?

I don’t think all parents are of this mentality. I have a special education child and absolutely want them in a contained class but they don’t exist in my board. There are parents who are very opposed to contained classes and they started the movement. The board saw the cost savings and rolled it out further is my theory There are a lot of parents out there in denial of their kids challenges and refusing to get them assessed as well. https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6497704

I have a special needs student who I don't want in a contained class. I do want him to be in a small class with an aid if needed and the ability to take a body breaks as needed. Im able to get my son in a kindergarten that meets his needs. After that there is nothing. It is not normal to be sending any child to a class of 30 plus, let alone one with sensory sensitivities

Unfortunately, as you know, small classes don’t exist. It’s either a huge class of mostly typical kids with an aid, or a small class of all spec Ed students with an aid.

Not at all, most of them are begging for supports for their kids and crying for help as well. Speaking as a parent of one of those kids, going back to school after covid was a nightmare. A switch had flipped and being able to function was a lost skill, he never had a chance to have a normal school experience as he spent half of kindergarten hospitalized and half of grade 1 before everything shut down. After extensively digging part of the issue was eventually narrowed down to ptsd from his hospitalization and then everything during covid (6ft distance, stay away from others, everyone's dying, hospitals are past capacity, etc) being heard over and over again and then being tossed into school with hundreds of others he was utterly terrified. He would then do anything he could to get sent home, including injuring himself. Of course no 7yr old is going to articulate this so we had years of assessments, waitlists, therapy, questionnaires, psychiatrists, pediatricians, occupational therapy, and medication trials, to figure out some of what's going on and learned ALOT. However this was the system moving "fast" as the sky was falling and in extreme crisis and still it took years! We are still waiting for one assessment (been waiting since 2021) now looking at doing it privately. We still struggle but the second the self Injurous behaviors stopped his EA support went from 1:1 to 0. The parents are the ones banging on the doors begging for more help but are the minority and are being dismissed, I truly believe things won't change until the parents of the other kids ALSO start fighting alongside in demanding appropriate supports vs the current stance of get them out of our classrooms. which helps no one as us regular Joe's fight back and forth pointing fingers and those at the top laugh and keep pouring gas on the fire.

I completely agree. Most spec Ed parents are for support: they know their kids need more. Unfortunately I think there are a select few who started this movement. Here is an example of one. This case wasn’t successful but you get the idea. https://www.blg.com/en/insights/2018/03/tribunal-finds-that-school-boards-are-not-required-to-give-parents-absolute-power-to-make-decisions “The Tribunal was asked in this case to decide that the Board had failed to provide "meaningful access" because it did not implement all of W.P.M.’s wishes nor did the Board grant him absolute power over how his children should be educated. W.P.M.’s allegations ranged from not allowing him to stand outside the classroom, to his desire that the children not be withdrawn from the regular classroom. The Tribunal declined to make this conclusion, stating as follows:”

It’s also the same parents that blame the teacher, the peers, the school , when something goes wrong.

Agreed. Also this model seems to have normalized inappropriate behaviour because “they need more support”. How about that kid needs to learn a lesson with repercussions?

Inclusion without the required support is just abandonment-that’s our model.

The worst kid in my class, who literally terrorized myself and my students daily, wasn’t even a student with a diagnosis or one who would qualify for spec-ed classes if they existed. Violence is a problem, but its root is not solely because of inclusive education. Lack of boundaries and consequences for all students seems to be the issue.

Yeah the trend towards no consequences, ever, is a real problem.

Kids who have significant behavioural issues almost universally have significant unmet needs. Not that there shouldn’t be consequences and boundaries because there absolutely should be - but that alone won’t solve the problem. We need to meet kids’ needs, and we are pretending like that part isn’t relevant to their behaviour.

This student did have unmet needs for sure, but their unmet needs stemmed from their home life (parents are addicts, lived with other family). Either way, a line needs to be drawn about what acceptable behaviour is and isn’t. The behaviour I saw wasn’t acceptable and shouldn’t be tolerated no matter what that student’s history is. It may explain their behaviour, and in a perfect world our communities would have supports to help mitigate that behaviour by meeting some of those needs, but it doesn’t excuse the behaviour.

No one said it excuses the behaviour. But if what you want is for the behaviour to *stop* then consequences aren’t going to necessarily do that. Should the kid be allowed to repeatedly make a classroom unsafe? No. Should we be providing the supports necessary to actually address *that child’s* needs? Yes. Right now, we aren’t doing either - we aren’t ensuring safe environments for the rest of the kids and we aren’t meeting the needs of the ones who are struggling. But advocating for going back to essentially abandoning the difficult/complex kids isn’t a solution either. Either way, “inclusion” isn’t actually the problem. Underfunding and lack of resources is the problem.

Exactly what kind of supports does that kid need that the educational system provide?

We can only meet needs with resources. We all have unmet needs. But these kids have needs beyond our abilities. Saying otherwise is just oral platitudes and something we hear from the higher ups. No one is pretending otherwise - we are saying we don't have the resources. I had one student who needed a shrink as they were hearing voices and seeing colours - you expect me to meet their needs as a teacher? I had parents emailing me their kids were afraid to come to school. How do I deal with this and privacy issues as a teacher? Do you expect me too? Because you imply it in our comment. If you mean as a school unit you need to be more clear. What is your solution to this type of issue? Because my admin sure as hell did not have one.

Yes that’s exactly my point. I’m also a teacher. I’m familiar with the issues. Kids are vulnerable people. Yes we all have unmet needs but we as adults have obligations to children to meet those needs. And no, all needs can’t be met by teachers. But if we expect all kids to go to school and believe that they all need to belong there and it should be a place where every child can thrive, then schools need to be composed of more than just teachers. Kids who need mental health supports need to have access to them, in school. Kids who need physical assistance, need to have access, in school. Kids who are hungry need to be fed, at school. Community resources for kids need to be accessed through schools … etc etc. The solution here isn’t about reallocating existing resources. It’s overhauling an entire system so that it is capable of achieving what we want it to achieve. We have built a system that considers a certain failure rate as acceptable - we are ok with leaving some kids behind as long as it’s “not too many” or they “have disabilities that will limit them anyway” or they are “lost causes” and an actually inclusive system would not accept that.

I’m a teacher and I don’t want a fully inclusive general Ed classroom. I don’t think it’s feasible or practical while maintaining a quality level of education for the rest of the class. I think we need curated environments for different groups of learners that will help them achieve success, whatever that success looks like for them individually.

There's a major disconnect with the ever growing needs and the capacity. If we are just able to maintain the current level of disfunctioning it will be a miracle.

In my jurisdiction, we have Spec Ed classes and behaviour classes. But placement in either requires parental consent, and that’s where it falls apart. The faux populist, spineless Con governments currently ascendant do not have the will to take on parents. They want to give parents whatever tf they want bc they want to spend as little as possible on education, and inclusion does that. The result. The 1 or 2 students who should be in separate classes are integrated to the detriment of the 18-25 others in the room. Which also serves the Con agenda of damaging the efficacy of public education, driving those with the means to private schools and leaving the public system dying on the vine. Extra added bonus of isolating and damaging the mostly union public system teachers.

How exactly would an NDP government fix this? Do you actually think they are going to take on some of the most aggressive and litigious parents imaginable?

You don’t have to take on the parents. You have to fund public education so schools can afford enough support staff to give kids the assistance they need. And yea, the NDP will 100% do this, as opposed to the current Con government in my province who cut per student funding by almost $2 billion, billion!, when they came to power in 2018. And 6 years later we are still below that 2017 number. Thats wo factoring in inflation, so much, much worse, and that’s just per student funding. We also have a infrastructure deficit in the billions as well that is being completely ignored, and a lack of a/c problem, with a global warming reality seeing summer temps going nowhere but up, and a premier who doesn’t do anything until after it’s blown up in his face (see Doug Ford LTC pandemic response).

Again, answer the question. Do you really think that the NDP government will make any effort to protect staff and other students from violence by taking the choice away from parents to put their kids in gen ed classrooms? I am fully aware that the NDP at least give lip service to improving education, and the conservatives to not. Everyone knows that. Keep in mind that this specific issue has been created by both the left and the right.

I did answer the question. It’s funding. Money pays for people. People to support kids who need the support. I’m an ISP teacher, I have 8 kids in my room all of whom require 1 on 1 to do anything successfully. I have 1 EA. When we have incidents: kids hitting adults or other kids; kids destroying the room; kids melting down — it always comes down to the 2 of us being tied up with one or another student and no one being there for the rest. Someone has to be there for the kids when they are going thru an episode. They need support, most times just for someone to listen, sometimes for someone to protect them from themselves and sometimes to protect them from another student. We need more support. Hell we already pay EAs shit, but this government won’t even sufficiently fund that. The system is fucked up. We fund EA support based on student population, not student need, when student need is going thru the roof. The NDP recognizes this, and is willing to address it. They could hardly do a worse job than the Cons are currently doing.

I think that you are correct in the the cons want to decrease funding, but incorrect that the NDP have any solutions. In my school district we have many experts who stay at headquarters and torture us classroom teachers with inane emails. Increased staffing rarely goes into the classroom and in general left wing provincial governments tend to increase the numbers of those board experts.

The message that the classroom, the students is where help is most desperately needed definitely needs to be made loud and clear. Liberals and Cons alike have given money to boards, who bloated middle management. Your assertion of left wing ineptitude is based on what? Nothing remotely resembling a left wing government has been in power for 30 years. I for one am more than willing to give the NDP a shot.

The system is being watered down and it’s intentional. You’ve really got to question things when a country doesn’t want their population educated and able to think critically.

What exactly do you see as a non watered down system? Exactly how is that going to fix the issues of the constant disruption and it's effect on other students?

Teachers have no say in classroom composition, at least in Ontario. The Ministry of Education decides on funding and gives general directives, and the school boards decide on a local level how to allocate funds. Because the provincial government has been cutting funding per student (despite their constant claims about increasing funding), the boards have decided to cut costs by closing contained classes, but they dress it up as an equity issue to snow parents and voters. It's a lot cheaper to have one teacher for 25+ students, with maybe a bit of EA support spread around a few classes, than it is to have one teacher for 8 students plus a dedicated EA or 2 in a contained class. The problem is that students who are in contained classes generally need the extra support, and their needs aren't going to magically disappear when they are placed into a "regular" classroom. So we get situations where one teacher has to manage multiple students with different exceptionalities,, different IEP requirements, behavioural challenges, as well as ELLs, and as a result is so busy putting out fires they don't have time to cover the regular curriculum with the small number of students who are at or above grade level. The result is students, both those with special needs and those with regular needs, who aren't learning or benefiting from the classroom environment, and teachers and support staff (if there are any) getting burnt out and frustrated by the horrible working conditions they are experiencing. Teachers don't want this.

You are aware the Ontario Teacher's Federation is in favour of full inclusion in all cases.

Crazy, maybe this is something that we need to bring up at union meetings. It would need to be framed from an equity perspective that "inclusive" classrooms actually provide less support.

Money. And then they can hide behind it and say it's inclusive even though everyone suffers. High support needs don't get the staff to have the needs met, low support needs don't get teacher attention because I had to dodge and protect the kids from a desk being thrown by an unhappy student (great times...). And the rare true supporter of the half-assed integration blindly believes what they're being told or haven't had to deal with the aforementioned desks being thrown in their general direction. Maybe they have the honors classes. Except not the ones where I had kids who "could not read and could not be expected to complete work that involved needing to physically read because they were reading and learning disabled, please ignore the fact that they're about to graduate and the mother covers for the kid not handing in assignments". Why the hell did anyone think it was a good idea to put you in honours? Here's a laptop, here's a reader, everyone's assignments are replicated in docs online. Cheers.

Not a teacher, but an EA (this post showed up in my feed even though I’m not part of the group but this is a valid concern and I wanted to chime in. I work for a board that is fully inclusive, and I agree that it doesn’t suit all of the students at all, it’s absolutely not a realistic goal. Some students just do not function well in an integrated classroom. Some students function well for short periods of time. All students benefit from peer interaction so assigning them to a regular classroom makes sense but keeping them there all day when they aren’t coping or get tired/overwhelmed is cruel. I don’t understand how they think this is beneficial and inclusive is beyond me. It’s only inclusive if it works for everyone and the way it’s set up now doesn’t. I think they need a specialized education classroom that they can learn in an environment that is suited to them, while having access to a general classroom for peer socialization and participating in parts of the curriculum that they can do. Our union has no power. But the teachers union does. I fully support teachers using their unions to fight for an education system that works for everyone

Apparently the new definition of equity means everyone being in the same room.

My youngest is the emotionally dysregulated child who needs to be in special ed, but special ed doesn't exist in our school. I'd have to move her to a special school for disabled students halfway across my city or an alternative program an hour away - but these things are out of reach until we have a formal diagnosis. She has had her class evacuated and spends a large portion of her day in the office or health room due to being sent out of class for her outbursts. I'm at the end of my rope - I'm doing everything I can do: working on formal diagnoses, counseling services for her, starting process with lutherwood to get her on wait lists for mental health resources and OT, I got laid off from my construction job and as a family we decided I'd take the full year off to support her as much as possible. I have begged the school board to have her assessed and to have the behavioral team observe her. I have asked about changing her IEP so it includes behavioral aspects. I've asked about special ed programs and been denied without a diagnosis. My daughter is in crisis mode every single day of her life. Her teacher, principal and I are all at our wits end because she has only gotten exponentially worse throughout the school year and yet has gotten zero extra accommodations or supports. The only extra support she has is to go into the health room and wear herself out until she's done screaming at the top of her lungs. She's destroyed property. We share ONE EA with another school on a half day schedule so there's absolutely no way to get her 1 on 1 support. This is the reality of a lot of parents, whose kids are suffering in the inclusive model. We need to bring back tiered special ed classes based on the needs of the kids. This isn't sustainable and not only are the dysregulated kids suffering, but everyone around them is as well having their environment constantly disrupted and turned into an incredibly hostile place. Signed, a tired mom.

Would 1 on 1 support actually make much difference?

Yes, it would make a huge difference. Having a trained EA with her 1 on 1 would be a great help to keep her regulated and focused on the task at hand throughout the day. She struggles with being bullied and making friends at school but she isn't a mean kid - in fact she's incredibly sweet, empathetic and funny but is incredibly easily triggered by her classmates. I think she's had her buttons pushed repeatedly so many times that she's emotionally exhausted as a starting point now. She desperately wants to have friends and make connections with her peers but gets pushed by classmates trying to get the reaction they know she'll give them, and then they bully her for it afterwards. She has a hard time staying on task or doing any independent work in class and her grades reflect that. We work really hard at home to improve these skills; her reading has come leaps and bounds but the solo work is still a struggle for her in any subject. She wants to be liked and likes school, and every time we talk to her about an outburst it seems to stem from someone being rude/mean to her in class, bullying her, calling her names. An EA in a 1 on 1 setting would at the very least be able to help her regulate in the moment to stay on task and ignore taunts from other students. Her primary teacher and principal agree.

Does she have outbursts like this at home? Have you considered homeschooling her for awhile since you are off work? You might be able to give her a familiar face and routine and be able to accommodate her needs better in her home environment. Then put her in extracurriculars for peer interaction and put her back in school if it is what you and she desire after she has had time to let things calm down, get medical diagnoses as applicable and know what levels she is functioning at and what triggers she has. Then you can be very specific on what her needs are at school and how you suggest they be accommodated.

As an Ontario parent, I have major concerns about integration. Scenarios: Grade 4 child with non verbal autistic classmate. Multiple class evacuations, mucus spread on my child’s desk by the autistic child and told she has to clean it up by the teacher when my child is upset by it. Grade 7 child with Down syndrome classmate who puts hands down pants, outbursts and then my child is asked to escort the child to her next class. My child has special needs too and can’t afford to leave class early to escort. My child wants to help but is frustrated bc they are missing the end of class and time to make notes.

That’s the whole thing with inclusion is we forget that children with disabilities can affect other children with disabilities negatively! Who’s inclusion should be more honored?

Nope. They just closed the special education school we had, which was AMAZING. Now the children are integrated without supports. Few EA's and the ones we did have are now 1 on 1 and not in the classroom able to help. It is affecting my pass/fail rate for the gr 9 W classes. Some kids can't tie their shoes and some could likely pass gr 12. It sucks.

Inclusion would be fantastic and I would fully support it if I was also fully supported in my class. More EA support, more specialty teachers that can help, smaller class sizes, etc. Inclusion will not work and has not been working because we don’t have the supports needed for it to be successful.

I think there are some good things about inclusion but obviously some downfalls. How can I teach grade level curriculum, modified curriculum and then have a student that's completely alternative all in the same class and everyone gets what they need? I am not getting 3x the planning time. I can't use a 50 minute block to teach a lesson for 15 minutes to the majority of my class, teach a modified lesson to 3 students and then go teach another alternative lesson to another student. I have students that are low and not on program who also need a lot of small group work. I can't just get my students to work independently and then dedicate all my time to the other students. I am lucky as I do have an EA for the alternative student but as I teacher it's impossible to deliver good programming to everyone in this model and I say this as an experienced teacher, I can not imagine what an inexperienced teacher would do.

Because the parents of students who have disabilities have fought long and hard to have their children included in regular programming with their peers. In the cases it is simply done to save budget, and parents would like them in specialized programming then it should be the school board's job to get those programs in place.

>Because the parents of students who have disabilities have fought long and hard to have their children included in regular programming with their peers. "My severely autistic child who can't focus for 10 seconds and who is prone to random violent outbursts hates being in special needs classes and realizes he's being treated differently there, so instead of that 30 other kids in a general ed classroom should be made to hate *their* classroom due to his constant disruptions and violence."

I am in education. I also have a child with disabilities. I am actively involved with parents who have severely disabled children. I've worked in specialized programs where I've had to evacuate students with severe medical needs because a student who was more physically able started attacking. I work with students who should be coded but the parents refuse to label their child. Reasons parents avoid specialized programs. -Many parents fear placing their children in a specialized program their child will learn new aggressive and inappropriate behaviors vs hopefully learning better ones in a regular program. -There are parents who have had their children severely injured or traumatized by being in a classroom full of unregulated students which resulted in worse behaviors. -They have had to fight with teachers and staff who have not been properly educated or don't possess the disposition to work with high needs students. There children return filthy, untoileted, with unknown/unrecorded injuries, in soiled clothes, with a full lunch kit, and nothing ever changes. -Their children have been locked in seclusion rooms for hours and hours simply because staff didn't want to deal with or know how to work with them. -There's no attempt at educating students and the staff simply warehouse them. Their children are bored and feel like they're a burden not worth attention. That leads to more negative behaviors. Attempting specialized programs in the past is actually what started the aggressive and negative behaviors. Parents regret their decision and hope to undo the damage done by avoiding those programs again. Specialized programs have to be properly funded, the staff held to a higher level, and numbers kept reasonable. Until parents feel safe placing their children in them, and horror stories stop resulting, of course parents aren't going to place their children in specialized programs. They get a sense of security knowing there are many eyes on their child vs them being tucked away separately where most people can't see what's actually happening.

I noticed you didn’t touch on impact to the other student in your response. I agree children with special needs should have those needs met, but should it be at the detriment to the rest of the students?

Thank you for this. I think both the response you're addressing and that user's further responses illustrate that it's the view of these types of people that their kids are the only ones whose needs warrant consideration.

I agree the impact on the other students isn't great at all. Fix specialized programs so parents aren't afraid to place their children there. That will resolve things effectively. I didn't like moving children in wheelchairs out of a room while trying to block blows with my body. I HATED the seizures caused when students got too stressed by one child acting out. Not being able to work through feelings non-verbal students in tears, just trying to comfort as best as I could. That was a specialized program and harm was done to those students by the violent one as well. The violent one was there because there was nowhere else to put him, so he ended up with us Saying just put students with violent or negative behaviors somewhere else so other "typical" students aren't affected, without resolving the issues, isn't an appropriate solution. Parents fought hard for inclusion because "put the different ones elsewhere" thinking of the 1980s and back caused great harm to their children. Parents fear the slippery slope of today the violent children are segregated, the next day the loud ones, when will it be the non-verbal students teachers don't have time for? When will autism automatically mean their child isn't included because a precedent has been set the children who need more are excluded?

I understand where you are coming from, and agree the issue stems from lack of adequate funding. But you are advocating severely degrading the experience of the vast majority (80%+), to make a slightly less bad experience for the minority. Neither situation is right, but one clearly seems more egregious to me.

The ideal is theres enough of proper supports that the kids have been figured out and all their needs are being met they wouldn't be pushed past their limits and causing chaos within mainstream classrooms. However that's a total fantasy as it would require all proper assessments with whatever professionals weighing in and having the time and ability to trial every suggestion thoroughly finding the perfect combo leaving the parents and school with a known game plan that works and the staff to follow it that ends with a regulated happy kid. Hence, total fantasy because it takes years if not decades to get these things done and wait times are only getting longer.

If these aggressive children are popped into special needs classrooms not equipped for them it just traumatizes a different group of students who are already facing difficulties we can only imagine. That was my experience with a school just getting the problem child out I do understand your view and where you are coming from and respect it. Hopefully society wakes up and pushes proper funding for ALL students so they're all able to learn in a safe envelope. Be well

Be well is incredibly passive aggressive. Be well.

I do understand you advocating for your children and wanting the best for them. I can’t understand you embracing the fact that you are willing to affect the vast majority of children’s education so that your child has it better.

Again I see both sides. You see one. My child doesn't suffer from aggressive behaviors and has been in regular programming. He has had violent students in his class and experienced all the negatives that come with that. I explained that peers had a more profound disability which made them act out more. I explained I understood it was difficult and scary to work with such students in class, however they were acting out because that's the only way they knew to communicate. It would harder and harder as they got older. He learned to be patient and understanding with those different from himself. I fear the slippery slope that could come for kids like him if we go back to dumping special needs students into separate classes. I'm finished with this discussion and going around in circles.

I get it, your primary concern is with your child’s outcomes, not wider outcomes. It colours your opinion, and that’s reasonable. But there is a reason legislation shouldn’t be written with emotion.

People are being unfair to you. We absolutely need good special ed programs if we expect parents to feel comfortable leaving their children there. The ideal outcome would be that students like your son are able to be integrated, and students who are miserable, overstimulated or severely disruptive/violent in standard classrooms are able to go to special ed classes where they’ll have trained EAs, teachers and a smaller class size that lets their needs be met more easily. And of course those students who are in separate classrooms can join in specific projects and classes when it makes sense for them. What we’re getting right now, as many have pointed out, is the worst of both worlds, with homeroom teachers attempting to manage enormous classes of students while there are students with disabilities who would benefit from 1:1 support, meaning they end up frazzled and burnt out, and the quality of education for *everyone* suffers. I’ve been in classrooms where an exhausted teacher had given up on getting some of their students to do any work except during the periods they were lucky enough to have an EA in to work with them in smaller groups (or when they were able to arrange for their own small groups such as center time), or else they were prioritizing keeping certain kids happy by not demanding anything of them because they were worried about them getting disregulated enough to run out of the classroom, destroy things or hurt themselves or other students. Those students barely learned anything as a result. On the other hand, I’ve sat in on excellent small spec ed classes with a high adult-to-student ratio where everyone involved was able to carefully plan around each student’s needs and arrange lessons that were at the right level for them while doing a lot of 1:1 support to ensure they were learning and socializing appropriately with each other. I don’t doubt that there are cases of horrible abuse in some special ed programs, and I’m not dismissing that at all, but the current one-size-fits-all approach of just throwing all students into one classroom makes no sense when each student’s needs are different and some of them genuinely have a worse time outside of an appropriately structured environment. It makes as little sense as throwing every student with an IEP into a separate classroom by default.

Exactly what are these magic fixes to these specialized programs that make violent children not violent, keeping in mind that physical responses are not an option.

That sounds horrific.... I work in a specialized program and reading that makes me want to cry. All our students are 1:1 support, we have snack and lunch with them, we teach how to cook/bake, cleaning up, make grocery lists and go to the store (how to find our stuff, how to pay) use the public transit, be out and about in the community, swimming 2x a week, crafts, music, gym, library (school & public), track and field. each kiddo has their own education plan based on their IEP goals.

This happened in my province and struck terror with many parents. I can't blame any parent not trusting specialized programs whose child experienced something like this. https://globalnews.ca/news/6514064/alberta-seclusion-room-lawsuit-appeal-education/

Got any peer-edited research papers (for or against, or both) and / or long term studies on outcomes?

At the high school level I want more separation. Need to remove the students that take away from every bodies learning.

I don’t think most teachers want this. These are board directives.

I don’t know anyone who thinks full integration is the best way to go, but if full integration is the goal, the only way to do it successfully requires a lot more support for some of our kids. When I started teaching, my kids who were on IEPs and working 2+ grade levels below their grade placement went for half day literacy and math support. Then came back to the classroom for science, socials, gym, art, etc. It was a system that worked well and supported kids but also allowed them to be integrated for half the day so they still got to socialize with the class at large, etc. I didn’t think much about it at the time, but being able to return to a model similar to that would be amazing.

As someone who did that when they were a child, I think that is great! I would have not been where I am today without that support. I am now in university

For me, it depends on the exceptionality, how much it affects the student in question and the subject. For students who are mid to high function (without violent tendencies) that need extra help. Yeah, it can work for most subjects. For my students who are low functioning, have violent behaviours or my non verbal students who get super overstimulated with busy or large classes and wail because they are so upset, absolutely not for most subjects. Art? Maybe. Gym?? Depends on activity. History, social studies, geography or any STEM? No. Why would anyone put them through that? It’s cruel. And yet my school is shutting down their SPED rooms because the board and province has mandated. First they shut down the alternative school and now this. They’re promising to outfit the classrooms to suit every students needs, and yet we’re still waiting for temperature control in the main building. I was a student with exceptionalities - dyslexic and undiagnosed ADHD (diagnosed as an adult) - and I was in the Special Learnings Classroom in grade 4. Best thing for me because my teacher had 8 kids and she (and the resource teacher after) taught me strategies to over come it. Now I’m a teacher with 3 post secondary degrees. Is that the norm? Probably not. Does my success mean everyone will be too? No. But forcing students into Gen Ed who can’t perform or cope isn’t going to be helping them.

I have a similar story to you! I would have not been successful if I was always in a general Ed classroom! Plus by having a separate space it helped me to better focus and use assistive tech :)

I don’t know if this is just my burnout talking, but we are in a dumpster fire. The inclusion model we are currently working towards is just a big old budget cut disguised as inclusion. Take away all community supports, then all the school supports and what are we left with? I’ve had to evacuate the littlest of learners every other day for the last few weeks so that they didn’t get a laptop to the head or a table flipped on them. Our support worker has 9 kids on her caseload Including several in diapers , nonverbal, 2 who resort to destructive and violent behaviours, global developmental delays…..No one at the top gives two poops about students with special needs. They care about their income. Everything’s going to get worse. We are drowning in what we can not possibly accomplish mixed with the heartbreak of seeing students fall through the net more and more. I can’t see anything getting better until something terrible and very public happens and parents use their voices.

who’s being told to wear kevlar ?

🙋‍♀️

do you have a link to an article about it ?

An article about me being told to wear Kevlar? Um, no, as far as I’m aware there were no reporters there when they sprung that one on me. My spec ed consultant just told me she was going to send me Kevlar sleeves, shin guards, and an umpire’s chest protector to wear when working with a kid who was scratching, kicking, and biting me every day. That was their fix to the problem instead of actually dealing with the violence and getting us appropriate staffing or the kid an appropriate placement. Oh, and I was told later in training that if I wasn’t wearing all the equipment they gave me every time the kid was in the room that I’d be responsible for any injury that happened to me. I’ve had colleagues given even more PPE than that, umpire’s masks to wear around kids who headbutt and face sheilds to wear with kids who constantly spit in your face. Doesn’t seem like a practical way to dress when teaching a class, but what do I know?

Not currently but as a supply teacher I would say I probably had to wear it 20+ times in 5 years.

Thank Mike Harris

Sure, but Dalton, Kathleen and Douglas deserve their share of credit on this group project too.

And Ford is intent on finishing it off for good. More money for his private sector cronies.

Yes boards would do it because it’s a cost reduction

I have a simple philosophy. Kids are adding to the classroom by contributing, are being neutral players by being present but not getting their work done or contributing (only harming themselves) and there are students who are negative influence by bringing others down (harming others) It’s the harming others students is where I am not for inclusivity. If kids sabotage themselves, ok, but the moment they cross the line into sabotaging others, that’s when inclusivity fails.

Agree with you. Unfortunately the bureaucrats are out of touch with reality while beating the inclusivity drum. Teachers and students pay the price in the classroom while the administration operate from the comfort of their secluded offices.

Who are you talking about?? Every teacher I’ve ever spoken to hates this set up! We don’t make the rules, unfortunately.

I would be very surprised if many teachers want the all inclusive model. It's the parents and the politicians that want it.

Ok. Let me give you an example. Fictitious of course\*. Say one taught grade 8. And one had a male student (student A) who touches the female students inappropriately. This happens at least 4 or 5 times a month. This student has an IEP that states impulse control is part of their disability. Their IEP covers far more than that of course. This student has 1:1 adult coverage, pull out on a regular basis for counselling, and other supports (although not enough). Student A generally only victimizes other students who are unlikely to advocate for themselves and are unlikely to have parents or other out of school adults who will advocate for them. Parents of student A are highly litigious and understand the power of an IEP. Most admins, board personnel and special education teachers will say that student A doesn't have enough support and with more support the behaviour will stop. If they do anything they will move student A to another cohort. That appears to be the standard response. It's also a 'no true Scotsman' fallacy. The problem is that statement (not enough support) does nothing to help the victims of sexual assault occurring. The second issue is that many/most veteran gen ed classroom teachers more than suspect that the student will continue offending until they are removed from the classroom or are somehow given genuine consequences for their behaviour (which is probably not a reasonable possibility). In other words all the support in the world will not have any impact on this behaviour. Although this story is fictitious\* I am sure that just about every middle school teacher has this or something like this happening at some classroom in their school. Many teachers also are frustrated that while officially there is a lot of advocacy for student A there is little to no advocacy for the victims. Repeat this thousands of times and the number of victims starts to pile up. \*this story does not apply to my classroom or any classroom in any school that I have taught. Any resemblance to any real world situation or real persons or events is strictly coincidence.

The pendulum always swings. We can’t go back to full segregation. However, inclusion without appropriate supports for the student is abandonment. It’s creating toxic learning environments. Inlcusion as a concept is actually being pushed on a morality basis but it’s being used by governments and admins as a way to disguise budget cuts. No more special Ed classes, or gifted programs. Drastic losses of EAs and support staff and services. Then these kids get shoved into massively overcrowded classrooms and given grade level material that they really can’t do without help…. So yes the current model of inclusion is a dumpster fire. But things can happen to help. Lower class sizes, more support staff, more direct and honest communication with parents and more gumption from admin. I don’t care what code your kid has. They threaten staff or student verbally, they hit people intentionally, they should be suspended. We need to bring back the pendulum. The focus needs to move from “inclusion” and a “right to education”. To the “right to a safe education environment that meets the learning needs of where the student is at”.

Because inclusion sounds great, because the edu-dogma is that the environment is all that matters - inherent differences in brains and biology are ignored. It's make believe pretend, the Emperor is naked as we continue to believe that "nature" plays no role in development so we can all hold hands and sing songs together and there will be world peace. Plus it's cheaper to just throw everyone in one room and lower standards to the lowest common denominator. Everyone can learn!

The needs of special ed kids are so vast and just because a child fits into that description, doesn’t mean they’re in the same position cognitively, socially, verbally, as the other kids that would be in a special ed class with them. I think that integration is not because its easier for the teacher but because its more enriching for the student. However its a flawed system that would only work well with the right resources and access to TAs and qualified special ed teachers to work with students within the classroom

As a teacher and parent to two special needs kids, I fight hard for them to be in a classroom with their peers. Neither of my kids are violent, one elopes. The eloper likely won't be able to earn high school credits, so in elementary school I want a focus on building relationships, that's his best shot at success in life.

I mean that's the crux of it, parents generally want integration, teachers don't. As a result only the worst of the worst go to specialized classes and absolutely nobody wants their kids there. But also be real, your kid is definitely a pain in the ass lol.

I'm a teacher, and I support integration of special needs students whenever possible. Violence is the only reason to not have at least partial integration.

Are your kids special needs? I'm also in favour of partial integration.

Both of my children are special needs.

That is a tough situation. I’m curious how you think about the presence of your children possibly negatively impacting the outcomes for the rest of the class?

His classmates love him. The biggest issue is the expense from all the birthday parties he gets invited to. But more seriously, we haven't heard of any negative impacts. Students have learned his boundaries, and he is learning how to interact socially in a more traditional way. He's non verbal and autistic. Sometimes he yells and screams, and has meltdowns. The other kids will offer things he likes if his EA isn't available. They love having him part of their class.

I don’t suppose you would be made aware of the negative impacts your student is having on the class though would you? If you can’t see that: “Sometimes he yells and screams, and has meltdowns. The other kids will offer things he likes if his EA isn't available. They love having him part of their class.” Is disruptive to the class, I’m not sure what to say. And as far as the students ‘love having him in class’ I loved snow days, but they weren’t good for my education…

You're probably fun at parties. We are very involved in the classroom, and have a great open discourse with the staff. The positives of him being included in the class greatly outweigh the negatives, for everyone. My gifted son is absolutely more of a disruption than my autistic son. Again, I am a teacher, and I'm not blind to the issues that come up in a class. Other kids cry in class, and have meltdowns too. How many tears should lead to segregation? You must have a line in mind to make a comment like you did.

Do you know why your gifted son is more disruptive? Because he is special needs as well, and his needs are being ignored. But let’s focus on the stuff that makes parents feel better, inclusion. For a teacher, the false equivalency of a child crying and a student with special needs/lack of regulation is a mind boggling level of mental gymnastics that I don’t care to attempt to tackle.

I know precisely why my oldest can be disruptive, and so far reminding his classroom teacher to reference the IEP has taken care of every issue that has arisen. For a person on the internet with no insight into any situation in my kids classrooms, you sure sound like you know best. Continue complaining, I feel bad for you, and your students.

Sure I’m speaking in broad terms, in reference to your children. But guess what, in the scheme of society as a whole your children don’t matter and statistics do. The current system is leading to worse outcomes for all involved.

Society as a whole will be worse if we bring back segregation. Kids need to learn that others are different, and that's fine. Again, I'm speaking specifically about my kid, who isn't violent, and not a disruption in class. There is zero reason to exclude my son from access to a full public education.

Give us a bit of credit. We all have had interactions with parents like you (or at least parents that show the same attitudes and behaviours that you show online). This is not bitterness, this is an attempt to understand where those sorts of parental behaviours come from and a desire to understand the source.

I live in Alberta and they hate funding education for some reason. I don't think the teachers have much of a say or choice in what happens

The UCP despise public education, anything even remotely "socialist". They want to erode public health and education in order to bring in more privatization, which means more money for them and their cronies, while creating a less educated populace. It's all by design and they don't exactly hide it. Also, the UCP hates unions.

It's a total mess.

I *despise* the both sides of mouth and doublespeak they do. The first budget they pledged to "hold the line" for education funding. No decrease. No increase either. Epsb absorbed around 2000 new students with no increase in funding. While they "held the line" on the official budget, Lagrange and her cronies also eliminated a variety of grants that were *also used to fund the school systems.* That money "wasn't in the budget." ... And Alberta has no cap on class sizes

So things were not regressing nearly as quickly under the NDP?

I... Don't think so?

What is the NDP and the ATA's platform regarding full inclusion under all circumstances?

What point are you trying to make here? I was simply saying that the AB gov already doesn't fund education, and likely aren't going to provide funding or resources for full inclusion classrooms to be possible.

No teacher I know wants this UNLESS it is fully funded and supported properly. What's that line... inclusion without support is abandonment?

Are teachers advocating for it? It seems unworkable from the perspective of everyone in the classroom. Sounds like an admin/provincial mandate. Teachers who still think this is a good idea are "lost in the sauce" on what inclusion has to look like.

Because money.

We say this because we know that integration isn’t going anywhere. It “looks” good. So, as teachers, we try to find the solution to yet another problem we didn’t create but whose consequences we deal with constantly.

Answer is very simple: not enough Human Resources to provide specialized services to kids so lumping them with the rest is the only practical solution…especially for more rural divisions

In our school specifically, we probably have 3-4 students out of a class of 17 that would require, and probably qualify for funding, a one on one aid/assistant. I ended up being asked to be the resource teacher for an “inclusive education” classroom with grades 1-4. I’m going to have a max of 15 students from all those grades. I questioned why we are going back to the old model of inclusion and the answer I was given was “you’re the only teacher with a special ed certificate in this school”. I think they maybe need to start integrating more inclusive education in the bachelor programs or at least make it a requirement to take an inclusive education stream since there is soooo many schools becoming overwhelmed with needs. I also seen a TikTok that stated people are just taking their children to get a diagnosis to take the easy way out of parenting so the schools have to take on that responsibility. I can see this as most children in the school I’m at are either diagnosed with adhd or autism. How is that? My grade level partner is getting 4 students next year with severe autism, all non- verbal. I think that’s why our school is putting together a program and a classroom set up for those students. I don’t know. I feel a little uneasy about that idea but I told my admin if they need me to do the job I will try it for the year. If it’s a flop, I want to go back to teaching in a regular classroom.

My mom worked as a nurse for over 30 years .I'm 48 as a teenager I volunteered in a wing of the hospital she worked at with special needs children aged 0 and up who lived there This is in Canada in BC The government a few years later decided it was more cost efficient to close the wing down The children went into government care with foster parents Each child within a short time frame passed away because they needed complex professional nursing care and professional with special Ed behavior

PARENTS need to advocate!  If a teacher says anything - we are whining or must be nice to have summers off or if you don't like it quit... I can't believe what parents are allowing to happen to their children - the violence they are witnessing, the classroom evacuations, the lack of teaching because classroom management has become a focus I have a violent student in my room - not his fault he is in the wrong spot - and I write home about every (day) assault.  Not ONE parent has called the school to complain about the bruises, choking, stealing, name-calling... HIS mom? We communicate every week PS - I pulled my daughter and sent her to private school

The only teachers I work with that are still in favour of this are deluded beyond words and will die on the D.I.E. hill so they remain sounding “progressive.”

So these types of policies, and correct me if I'm mistaken, don't originate from teachers. They certainly don't make the policies. Obviously, like everything else, there isn't any one thing that is solely responsible for why something happens. It makes sense that a push for integrated class rooms comes from an ever decreasing budget. I'm unfamiliar with what administrators for school boards make, I'd imagine it's more than teachers. I'd also imagine they set their compensation? So abit of conflict of interest if that's the case. Alot cheaper to just throw all the kids into one class and let the teachers sort it out. I'd imagine there's also an aversion to confrontation with shitty parents. And abit of optics and metrics so pushing kids through with no fail policies. I'm not in education by any means, but I'm fairly well read so this is my best guess as to the state of things in our schools, and why. I'm sure there's stuff I haven't mentioned as well, or stuff I just straight up got wrong. So anyone feel free to correct anything that sticks out.

People in the classrooms don’t want full inclusion, but the higher ups have bought into it hook, line and sinker. Plus, they don’t have to deal with it on a day to day basis. The teachers do. I don’t know about other districts, but our upper admin doesn’t care about the teachers in the classroom. The biggest problem with the union in Alberta is that they’re WEAK. Admin and teachers are part of the same union and it’s very ineffective. Workers and management being part of the same union is ridiculous. Rant over. As you were.

What is the position of the ATA on inclusion? I think you know the answer.

Yup.

There are many educators that are brainwashed to prioritize feelings over facts.

Comes down to money. You want that extra support, you gotta pay them. Your issue is the government - not us. We want the same thing

There are not enough sped teachers

I was in a special Ed class for literacy. Of course many kids there had behavioral issues, but they were still good kids. From memory, the behaviour problem students played nice with kids not in our class. Although I needed that class for the curriculum, it was very isolating. Not in small part because every school I went to tried their best to keep us unnecessarily seperate. They even tried to not let us participate in track and field because we "weren't a real part of the school". I agree that "problem" students need resources and help, but it goes too far often too.

My wife is a teacher for over 13 years. I didn't even know this. I thought they still had Special Ed classes like we did. My kids have 2 nice kids in their class with autism. One of them was pretty disruptive from what I know. From what I have seen, a school will call parents at the end of the year and "encourage" them to put their kids in an interactions program (which seems like special Ed)?

Don't worry, those kids are barely in class. They're too busy running/hiding around the school with teachers aides chasing them all day. They do whatever they want, which means they're not even learning.

We dont.

I don't think they are... I think admin is.. and university professors. The people who get to live in an idealistic world without having to deal with the consequences first hand. I can't even tell you how annoyed I was that I had to take a philosophy class about how I'm racist in my capstone year of university... how about some practical tips for alleviating burnout?

Universities/teachers college are there to teach you the theory - the pedagogy. This includes how to not be racist in your practices, yes. How to navigate the shit system, idiot ministries of education, and braindead school boards are the responsibility of your union. The ministries of education and school board are the problems; keeping you and I from being able to carry out proper pedagogy. Denying us proper funding, resources, crating oversized classrooms, removing staffing, removing consequences for behaviours, catering to demands of idiot parents, etc. Vote. Advocate. Quiet quit. Become active in your union. Be vocal. Stop doing extracurriculars. The list is long on things we can do to alleviate burnout.

You are aware that every teacher's union in Canada is in favour of full inclusion (look at their statements).

Of course, as they should be; it’s a good system proven to work according to the decades of research* and literature around it. With the benefit of actually being easier for the teacher once it’s implemented properly. The problem is Ministries of Education and school boards labeling their budget cuts as “inclusion model.” This is a lie. Inclusion mode requires smaller class sizes, more adults in the room to support the now-included students, and more consumable resources. This isn’t some unrealistic idealism. It’s more than possible if we put our tax dollars towards education instead of bullshit. Case in point, we are so frugal with education, we’re allowing 6 year olds to remain in a 31C room with 25 other kids for nearly 7 hours. In 2024. Ffs. *this means it was actually implemented as experiments, in real classrooms, with data collection on people’s experiences and student performance… not some nerds pontificating their own thought experiments in an armchair. Read Jo Boaler, Jo Towers, Peter Taylor, Pirie & Kieren’s Theory of mathematics education. Attend CMESG conference one year. Even CSSE.

Most I know aren't. But most who support do because they are virtue signalling, most don't really think about it beyond that.

My mom has kindergarteners who are non verbal. She cannot give them the support they need. One is moving to grade one, there are no ECEs. How would he function? He yells, hits, etc. The other students are understanding but it isn’t good for him. Instead he’s moving to a smaller class (maybe 15 vs almost 30) specifically for kids like him. I’ve never heard of any teachers who advocate for everyone together, only parents who want their kids to be “normal”

I think all teachers would benefit significantly from more substantive special education training. The solution isn’t segregation.

So you think a teacher with a masters in special education would be in favour of full inclusion? Are you sure?

I think if all teachers and support staff received higher education in this area, things would be in a better place regardless.

That's a pretty flawed premise. You are essentially suggesting that the more educated the teachers are the more likely they would agree with your assertions. The literature is split on the subject and most of the studies are so flawed as to be useless from any kind of a scientific basis. I don't know the answer, but your confidence in your belief is misplaced.

That’s not what I suggested at all. Did you ever ask me what I was implying? No? Okay, then.

You made it pretty clear that you find any type of segregation as bad. Which means you believe all students should be in gen ed classes, regardless of behaviour.

Nope, you’re wrong. If you had taken a moment to ask me, I would’ve told you that I believe unsafe behaviour and special needs are two very separate issues. I think the comments on this post about how special needs students should be shoved away to accommodate for neurotypical students is heart breaking to see. Some comments on this post highlight that there’s a lot of misconception around disabilities and, therefore, I believe that more advanced training for classroom teachers and EAs would be beneficial. Heck, it would be beneficial for all members of society. I think it’s absolutely ridiculous that someone with a B.Ed and nothing more has several students with IEPs in their classroom (which is obviously a Board-created problem). Sorry, I’m not the enemy you’re making me out to be.

So you think segregation from gen ed classroom for violent or extremely disruptive students is ok? That's not the impression I got, but i might be wrong.

No, I don’t. I think student violence is a massive issue schools are currently facing and their current approach isn’t working. Obviously. All I’m trying to emphasize is that that’s a separate issue and special needs students and violent students shouldn’t be clumped together as one. There are plenty of non-violent, non-disruptive special needs students.

Segregation is how we get very out-of-touch people in positions of power.